Podcast Host / Narrator (2:28)

That isn't available in my region, I can switch my virtual location in seconds and watch exactly what I want, no matter where I am.

Spencer Martin (2:35)

It's incredibly easy to use.

Podcast Host / Narrator (2:36)

I know a lot of people get intimidated when they hear VPN, but NordVPN is as easy as downloading the app and connecting with one click. And you can even set it up for auto connect. So it's just ready the same time every day. Also good for keeping you safe when you're on the road trying to sign into some password protected accounts and you don't want anyone on the public WI.

Spencer Martin (2:55)

Fi to see what you're doing.

Podcast Host / Narrator (2:57)

And with over 7,500 servers in 118 countries, I can change my virtual location effortlessly. So if you want to watch the tour or just keep your browsing safe at any time, NORDVPN has you covered. Get your exclusive nordvpn deal here. Nordvpn.com themove it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Nordvpn.com themoves or find the link in the show notes everybody.

Sponsor Representative (Element) (3:24)

This episode is brought to you by Element. I've been trying to get out on the bike more more recently as I prepare for my showdown with George and Wiggins at the upcoming El Tour de Tucson. And one thing that's making my training a lot easier is Element. It keeps me hydrated without all the junk. And frankly, it's delicious. Each packet delivers a thousand milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, 60 milligrams of magnesium in the perfect mix to keep my body firing. No sugar, no gluten, no artificial stuff, no bs, just clean electrolytes. And I swear it makes me feel significantly better on the bike. Oh, and don't sleep on the element sparkling. 16 ounces of bold, sparkling electrolyte water that hits the spot both on and off the bike got me through those long days in the studio with the Tour de France. And here's the kicker. If you order Element and don't love it, just give it to a friend and Element will refund you. No questions asked. Right now you can get a free 8 count sample pack of Elements most popular flavors with any purchase at Drink element, which is lmnt.com the move, that's.

Podcast Host / Narrator (4:32)

Drinklmnt.Com themove all right, Johan, do you.

Spencer Martin (4:38)

Want to go first? What's your big takeaway from this win that I think came exactly as you predicted in yesterday's show?

Johan Berniel (4:47)

Sorry, I was, my, my mic was not on my.

Spencer Martin (4:51)

I was like, man, he's thinking, yeah.

Johan Berniel (4:54)

Yeah, I was thinking, well, I mean, there's two, there's two things I, I want to address before we go into the, you know, what happened and how Pogachar won and how the race developed. When I started watching, I started watching pretty early. So we had. We had these 14 riders go away from. From very early on. Some strong riders in there. And my thing. And I still cannot. I don't have an answer yet, but my take of the day would be a part of, of course, the. The Pogasha Show. What the fuck was Red Bull Bora doing today? What was that? I mean, why. I cannot understand. They. Straight away, they started collaborating with uae and I mean, my only. My only explanation is, okay, Roglich must have said he felt great. Turned out he didn't. But, you know, you don't know that at the start. And then basically, you know, the purpose could be, okay, let's just please make sure that Pogacher doesn't get isolated too soon, because that's when he goes. And that would have been one climb earlier. Other than that, I mean, I don't know what you guys think, but what was the thinking behind that collaboration so, so early and basically during the whole race?

George Hincapie (6:19)

Georgia, I mean, I think we're looking for change in tactics. I think you can maybe say, like the European Championships. Why is the Belgian team doing all this work when they know what Picard is going to do? But I think we're just witnessing such dominance that no matter what tactics are played, it's not going to be much difference. I mean, you see a guy like Pavel Civicov pulling for like 60k, keeping a breakaway of, you know, seven, eight, nine guys, a really strong breakaway at two and a half, three minutes by himself. That team has thus far just been unstoppable. And Poker Chart just. He just goes when he wants. I don't know what the tactic was from Bora by starting to collaborate with them early on. Maybe, you know, we all know how those roads are. Twisty, turning, maybe just giving their guys a little bit of freedom in the beginning just to not fight for position. But, yeah, it doesn't make much sense to help out such a dominant team.

Johan Berniel (7:11)

What?

Spencer Martin (7:12)

Yeah, I mean, am I at a line for thinking, Johan, that this was. I want to be careful how I phrase this. Was this an agreement that maybe will be paid back next year? Was. Was something going on there behind the scenes? Because in the race, I don't really understand it.

Johan Berniel (7:29)

Spencer, if you ask me that question 15, 20 years ago, I would say maybe into the. In today's cycling, there's no way every race starts from scratch. And every, I mean, everybody writes for themselves there. I mean, what kind of agreement can there be? I mean, it's like UAE doesn't need to make agreements with anybody. They have three, three guys in the top 10 today.

Spencer Martin (7:49)

Maybe it was. That's a very good point. Why do you need friends when you have all the good riders? I mean, maybe it was. We will promise not to send Tade to the Giro next year if you help us poll. Frankly, the funniest thing about it was I don't even think they needed the help.

George Hincapie (8:05)

Right.

Spencer Martin (8:07)

Yeah, it was strange we should say, why was Red Bull polling?

Podcast Host / Narrator (8:11)

Because.

Spencer Martin (8:12)

And I, I, I think we're seeing the future with this. The, the start of the race was like the start of a, of a Tour de France, of a three hour Tour de France stage. It was full gas. Quinn Simmons attacks from the gun, gets away with an incredibly strong group including Filippo Ghana and two other ineos. Riders like these guys clearly understand the assignment. We can't beat Picachar from the peloton. The only chance is to get out in front and hope they make a miscalculation. And Simmons, I mean, after being out in the, in front almost six hours, gets fourth place. That's certainly better than he would have gotten had he ridden from the peloton. Do you guys think this is a trend that riders will just start going from the gun because there's no hope in races this hard? Or is this an outlier because Simmons is on incredible form?

Johan Berniel (8:57)

But I mean, listen, Spence, Spencer Simmons is on incredible form. I just, I'm just pulling up a stat here from Velon, right? So they have, obviously they have, the teams that are part of velon have these GPSs and they get all the metrics live during the race. So I saw this here says what it takes to be in the breakaway in a monument. Quinn Simmons first. 20 kilometers in the breakaway, 24 minutes. Average speed 49.8 kilometers per hour. Not flat. Maximum speed, 79.2. And here it comes. Average power during 25 minutes. 380 watts in the break. Maximum power, 950 watts. You know, I mean, go from the gun is one thing, but you have to be damn strong to be there. I mean, these guys were no panicooken. You know, there was some really, really strong riders in that break. And, and it shows, I mean, that house, these, these numbers here show how, how strong Quinn was. And then finally to, to make it over the, over that climb, I would say in a, you know, podium position almost. Right. I mean, he, he he almost made it.

Spencer Martin (10:08)

But he almost made it. Yeah.

Johan Berniel (10:10)

The rider who attacked at kilometer zero today finished fourth in Lombardy. That's quite something.

George Hincapie (10:17)

Yeah. And now to me, that was the ride of the day. Like you said. You want holding that type of power in the first 25 kilometers. Yeah, maybe many people in the peloton can do that. But to hang on to fourth place with a team like UAE pulling full gas behind, dropping the riders that he dropped. I mean, what an incredible last part of the year Quinn Simmons is at. You know, he didn't have his best worlds, but unbelievable ride today. Ride of the day, in my opinion.

Spencer Martin (10:43)

Mean the Paso de la Crocetta, which is 12K long. He, he, according to the on screen graphics, averaged 450 watts for that. So not only is he doing 380 watts for the first 25 minutes now I, okay, so maybe some people can do that. It's like, all right, then you're out front all day, then you get to a long climb, just hold 450 watts on that. And then he keeps going. I mean, he was still putting out power all the way to the end. It is an incredible ride. But I think, I mean, Pagatra is undefeated in the last two years in races with more than one day races with more than 4,000 meters of climbing. He's only lost two one day races with more than 3,000 meters of climbing. One of those he gifted to McNulty. The other one was Amstel Gold which came a week after Perry Roubaix. With those facts, I mean you, if you're the second favorite, you might have to start attacking from the gun. I, I don't see any other way to stop this. We should say Remco Evanopole has, has adopted incredible discipline. It's I guess the opposite of the Simmons strategy where he's. I didn't, I forgot he was in this race for the first few hours, sitting in the group, sits on Pagatra's wheel. He's holding the gaps somewhat, he's dropping everybody else, but then he's still falling short. I mean, what advice could you give to Remco, you guys, do you think there's, there's anything he could adjust to beat Pagacha or just hope for? Gotcha gets sick one time.

George Hincapie (12:09)

I mean in my, I think he just, he's doing what he can. And you know, second place is he's leaving his team honorably. Given the number of result in a World cup. Obviously he wanted to win, but he just hasn't been able to keep up with poker. And maybe in the back of his mind he thinks, well, maybe next year with this, maybe if I'm a little bit stronger and I have some guys that can stay with me a bit longer, maybe if I don't go with poker chart, I can have these guys help me bridge back up. I mean there's, there's just, he has to start thinking out of the box and I think the fact that he's going to a new team with much better climbers around him can give him some, some hope and he can get some positivity out of that.

Johan Berniel (12:48)

Yeah. Right now, Spencer, I think, I mean just, just thinking out loud, you know, I mean, I, there's only one, one way that there might be a possibility. And I've always said, you know, Pogachar on top of his form, his, his strongest, his, his worst enemy is himself. And so I think what they should try to do, especially in monuments like 250k is you know, try to isolate him early, to make him attack early and then not race behind and try to keep it together and hope that he will be overconfident and runs out of gas. It has happened in the past a few times, but it seems that now, especially this year, he has that exercise under control. Even, you know, he does not run out of energy anymore. He just, he's, he's, there's, listen, there's a reason why. There's a reason why. Because this is not a coincidence anymore. If you look at all the last few races, it's always he attacks, he takes one minute and he keeps it there. There's a reason for that. He does not go to his limit. He's, you know, he, he gets that minute and then he's capable of managing it. And I mean, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't know you, they have to try things. I mean you can, you can try a multi rider attack from other teams, but he's so much stronger than, than the second best rider. And you know, you, it's debatable that the second best rider might actually be on his team is Del Toro. It's in certain races. So yeah, it's not easy to come up with strategies.

George Hincapie (14:27)

You know, not only that, like we said we mentioned before, Civicov pulled for 60K and then as soon as Jay vine takes his first bowl, there's four or five guys left, everybody's gone. And that's not even their second best guy. He gets on the front, he starts doing the pace and there's four guys left and Tokyo is not even close to his limit. It's just. I don't understand how they're going to beat him in the future.

Johan Berniel (14:49)

Yeah. I mean, speaking of not being on his limit, George, you know, I think it was telling to see that when, when, When Rafael Micah pulled off, there was. You could see There was like 15, 20 guys, and everybody else was just hanging on for dear life. And the fact that Pugachar just took the time to salute Rafael Micah, give him it, because it was his last phrase of his career. On the climb, everybody's suffering, and Pogachar has the time to think. Okay, Rafa, thank you very much. Hats off. That's like, okay, we're just waiting for the Pogacha show to happen. He is just that much better. And also, you know, you can see everybody was at the end, they were struggling. You know, Remco was, you know, normally Remco, it's. It. Even if he's on the limit, it's. It's hard to see when he's on the limit. You could see when he crested that climb, he was on the limit. But, man, also the way he's in control on the downhills and in these corners, it's. It's like he, you know, it's. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, listen, I, I love it, but it must be super frustrating for teams and rivals. It's like, yeah, if you get second, I think you're. It feels like a win, I guess.

Spencer Martin (16:08)

Well, there's always. This is my favorite strategy. Show up and hope for Gotcha doesn't show up. Because it's not like, imagine if Tade wins the tour this year and is like, I just want to go hang out on the yacht and I don't want to do these races. At the end of the year, Remco would have won World championships time trial, World Championships road race, European Championships time trial, European Championships road race, and Lombardia. We would be looking at a historical run from Evanopole if Pagatra just decided he wanted to do something else. And I mean, it's. He doesn't go to every race, and he's not always going to be healthy. So I do think Remco can take positives out of this. I. I did look it up. I think Remco is riding the. The best he's ever ridden. He isn't won a monument in over two years. That's how like, much the window is narrowing here for, for riders that can actually compete with Pigachar.

George Hincapie (17:00)

Well, yeah, I think you said he hasn't won a monument in two years, but think about his results after the Tour last year. I mean, dominating the Olympic time trial in the road race, riding away from.

Spencer Martin (17:09)

Everybody, but using my favorite tactics. Yeah, I love that.

George Hincapie (17:14)

It's crazy, but it's, it's. It's the reality of, you know, what we're watching these days.

Johan Berniel (17:19)

But it's going to happen, you know, I mean, I mean, yeah, I don't think we should even look any further than maybe next year, Spencer, if Bogachar, you know, because I have this, I have this list here of, of if you look at his. I mean, we can go on and on. We can do a whole podcast only talking about unique stats. I know from. Right.

Spencer Martin (17:36)

So you might actually.

Johan Berniel (17:37)

So I have a few things here. So it's. So it's the fifth time he wins. Lombardi only f to copy has done that in the past, but nobody has done it five times in a row. He's the. Also Pacha is the first rider ever to win both the world championships and Lombardy in the same season two times in a row. Yeah, Eddie Merckx has done it once. And I mean, other. Other guys have done it. Like I think eight or eight or nine writers who were world champion and won Lombardy. But he does it two times in a row. He's the second rider ever to win three monuments in one season. Only Eddy Merckx has done it. Eddie Merckx has done it four seasons. Nobody before, Nobody before was on the podium. Of all the monuments in one season, this is Picacho. So he's starting to get unique stats. Right. And so if you look at his palmares, I mean, he's 27 years old. And I have the list here I go briefly. So he's two times world champion, European champion. He won the Tour four times Tour de France. He won the Giro Tyranno Adriatico twice. Paris, Catalunya, Dofine 5 times, Lombardia 3 times, 2 times Tour of Flanders 3 times. Strala Bianch 2 times. Flesh Wan and I'm still gold race. Those are the most important. Like, he won a bunch of other races. So I went through, you know, if these guys just want to tick off, you know, to tick the boxes. So there's only four events left to win. For Pugach, it's the Vuelta sp, which in my opinion, when he shows up, he's going to win. It might be next year, maybe Milan, San Raven, Paridou, pay those two. Those two monuments and the Olympic road race. There's nothing else to win for Pogacha and he's only 27, so, you know, I think maybe. Look, I mean, let's, let's look at this. I mean, I, I don't know what his calendar going to be, but let's suppose he wants to win the Vuelta as soon as possible. So let's say next year he does Tour de France and Vuelta. You know, maybe he doesn't do the Worlds. Oh, I mean, it's a Montreal.

Spencer Martin (19:43)

Well, it's in Montreal.

Podcast Host / Narrator (19:44)

You got it.

Johan Berniel (19:45)

But anyway, you know, you can't say. You know, you can't say maybe he's drained and you doesn't do the world.

Spencer Martin (19:50)

That double is, is brutal.

Johan Berniel (19:52)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (19:52)

As we saw with Jonas.

Johan Berniel (19:53)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (19:55)

So, yeah, we should. So he's. Go ahead, George.

George Hincapie (19:59)

Well, I'll say. I mean, it depends how you look at it. Like, the double is not necessarily brutal because you can come out of the welter in really good shape and not even train and be really good at the world. So I know back in our day that was a great training race for the world. So obviously guys like Poker Chart don't need that anymore. And, and Jonas obviously did not quite recover because he didn't have great performance at the European Championships and didn't even go to the Worlds for that matter. But I think with Poker Chart, if he does the Worlds, he'll be fine. And I mean, sorry, if he does the Welda, he'll be fine at the Worlds next year.

Spencer Martin (20:35)

Yeah. And I guess Jonas got pummeled at the Tour, so that obviously takes it out of you. Whereas we saw yet last year, Tade at the Giro, he was always controlling the pace. So he was not depleted when he left that and went into the Tour de France. I was just going to say Johan said taday. I don't know if we mentioned this. 10 monument wins in his career. 27 years old, just turned 27, by the way, fresh 27. He only trails Roger de Vlamik, who has 11 monument wins, and Eddie Merckx, who has 19. That's a lot. He has two more than the next active writer. That's Matthew Vanderpoel, who has eight, which is a ton of. The craziest thing about this is these are the ages of their. Of their most recent Monument win. Eddie Merckx, 30. That's. That's very young to win 19 Monuments. Roger De Vlemic, 31, Bagatra 27. Matthew Vanderpoel, 30. I mean, that's impressive. That means he's. He is three full years to. He just. He just has to win 2.6 Monuments a year for the next three years to match Mercs. And that's exactly the rate he's been winning at since 2021. That is unbelievable.

Johan Berniel (21:40)

I think, I think I was thinking about that today when I saw those images. I mean, I saw some images of him training the other day on the. Reconning the.

Spencer Martin (21:47)

The course.

Johan Berniel (21:48)

And, and then today, you know, on the, on that last climb, I mean, on that last short climb, the crowds were unbelievable. I think ultimately Bogachar is going to be the one who will make the decision that the dominance is over. Because we've seen already a little bit of it in the Tour. At the end, you know, he was a bit overwhelmed by all the attention, the pressure, you know, being solicitated all the time. It must be unbelievably hard. And I don't know if his interview where he said, you know, maybe I don't race that much longer anymore. And I think that's the only thing they can hope for for the moment, you know, that Pugach says, okay, you know what?

Spencer Martin (22:28)

See you in the douches.

Johan Berniel (22:30)

And that's it. That's it. You know, that's it for me.

Spencer Martin (22:33)

Well, you're leaking into question time here, but let's put it. Let's put a pin in that. I do think that's an interesting question, but before we move on, you touched on it, Johan. Well, you said two things. You said you got to isolate Pagachar. We saw today. You can't isolate them because UAE is so strong. What did you guys make of UAE's? I mean, they look like a different team compared to the Vuelta. They were so well drilled. They knew exactly what they wanted to do. What did you guys think about that?

George Hincapie (22:59)

Yeah, there was perfection. I mean, that's what you want to see in a team. But again, you have the guys like Civicov, Micah, Jay, Vine. I mean, these are all team leaders in their own right. So it's almost unfair to have these guys sitting at tempo at the front. It's like you can't do anything when these guys are riding tempo. It's like, yeah, what are you gonna do? Attack for 1km at 20 more watts and then blow up. It's like you just gotta hang on for dear life and then hope Poke Charles attack isn't as strong as it has been the last couple of races, but we saw it's as strong or even better. He just keeps getting better and better.

Johan Berniel (23:33)

Yeah. And Spencer, I Mean, we've talked already about it many times, and it is. Once again, we've seen, you know, the UAE is. There's two teams, there's a team when Bogachar is not there, and it's uae. With Bogachar, it's completely different. I mean, if you have a guy, where would we say 90 sure is going to win, or even more, 95 sure he's going to win? Because there's no questions. You know, I mean, everybody does their job, and I mean, the only. The only guy we. We didn't really see today, but. Because even then, I mean, if you're on such a strong team and you have your role and you're like, let's say there's Pugach, there's Del Toro, and then there's number three, four, and five, you know, so if. If you're number four or number five and you don't have a great day, man, it's. It must be stressful. I'm thinking, for example, about Adam Yates. Adam Yates had a job. He couldn't. He couldn't because he was put on the limit by one of his really amazing teammates.

Spencer Martin (24:36)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (24:37)

You know, so being on that team. And George, you know perfectly what I'm talking about. When there's a hierarchy in the team and everybody has their job, the moment that. When the moment comes, it's stressful and you have to be there, and sometimes you're not able to. So it's not like, you know, these guys show up and everybody does their job. There's, you know, they need to be ready when. When it's their time. Right.

George Hincapie (25:00)

Yeah, I agree. But even. Even when you have such a. Adam Yates top four or five climbers in the world, you see, he didn't have a great day today. And it was really inconsequential to the team's performance. I mean, they still adapted, kept going, kept rolling, won the race no problem. And Adam's in great form. He just won a race in Italy this week. I mean, so like you said, he just had a bad day, but it really didn't affect the team at all whatsoever.

Johan Berniel (25:28)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (25:29)

Does the sport need a salary cap? I'm just listening to you guys say that there's no.

George Hincapie (25:34)

There's no doubt the budget of UAE is affecting the teams and the competition and the way races are raced. Right. This season. I mean, and it's not slowing down. They get whoever they want whenever they want.

Johan Berniel (25:49)

Yeah. And there, by the way, it looks to me, I mean, from. I've been looking at some transfers even in with the, with their women's team, they're doing the same thing. They're, they're buying away really good writers and good stuff from other teams. And the teams, as far as I've been told, it's frustrating because they can't compete. You know. You know, a helper, somebody who would be a leader on, on, on any team gets paid 50 more to be a helper on UAE.

Spencer Martin (26:21)

Yeah. Yep. Well, let, I mean, I don't even, I don't want to get into the. Actually the Com. I know people that had to change that lobby to change the laws to get the NFL salary cap in place. So I don't even know if it could happen, but it would take a lot of legal work to do it. But let's take a quick break and then I have a, I have a question for you guys. A depressing question about it getting old. We'll be right back, everybody.

Podcast Host / Narrator (26:47)

This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I'm drinking AG1 every day. It's the first thing I do. I come down, AG1 gave me a nice little canister. I just scoop it out of there. I put it into my nice little AG1 glass. It's really just a glass with a top on it. But it's, I like to think it's a nice fancy mixer. I, I mix it up, I drink it and I'm getting better gut health, steady energy, immune system support. And honestly, it' way easier than all those supplements that I'm not so great at taking. So with each daily serving, I'm getting 75 high quality ingredients that support energy focus, strength and clarity. Covering my nutritional bases literally couldn't be easier. Which is why I trust AG1. And now AG1 has leveled up with AG1. Next gen. Clinically shown to increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, all for the same price, less than $3 a day. Head to drinkag1.com the move to get a free welcome kit including a bottle of vitamin D and five AG1 travel packs a $76 value when you first subscribe. That's drinkag1.com themove everybody. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. I've been sleeping on a Helix mattress for a little over a year now and honestly, it's been a complete game changer. Before Helix, I thought I was just a bad sleeper. But once I switched my data told the real story. My Garmin started showing deeper, longer sleep cycles and my recovery noticeably improved.

Spencer Martin (28:19)

Within the first week and as a.

Podcast Host / Narrator (28:21)

Control to this, to the study that I'm giving you, I was away all summer. I was at the. I was up in Aspen for the tutor, France. I was in Europe seeing family, not on my Helix. And when I got home, the difference.

Spencer Martin (28:32)

Was night and day.

Podcast Host / Narrator (28:33)

I was falling asleep faster, staying asleep longer, and actually waking up feeling rested instead of groggy. That better sleep has translated into sharper focus for work, better energy on the bike and just an overall calmer, healthier daily rhythm. In upgrading Helix to upgrading to Helix is not as hard as you think. You're thinking, wow, I don't know what mattress to get. Well, just go to the website, fill out their sleep quiz and within minutes they'll tell you which mattress mattress is best for you. And lucky for you, helix is offering 20% off all orders on the site for the Move listeners. To redeem the offer, head to helixsleep.com the move and you'll get your code for 27% off. And make sure to enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you that. That's helixsleep.com the move. Find the link in the show notes.

Spencer Martin (29:23)

Okay, so do you guys. You mentioned Adam Yates, you mentioned Primos Roglich or you didn't mention him? I thought about him. Do you know how many riders over the age of 30 finished in the top 10 of today's race?

George Hincapie (29:35)

How many?

Spencer Martin (29:36)

Zero have have we like crossed the Rubicon here? To me, this was, this was the first time, I guess the Tour plus this the first time Primos looked quite his age to me. And Adam Yates, I mean, who was ripping it up just until recently, as you, as we said, could not really perform his job today. Have we reached a point where it's just tough over, over 30 to even compete with these guys? And then you have a teenager in, in seventh, Paul Seychelles, a 21 year old in fifth. This is a 240 kilometer race. Like the hardest thing on a body that age. I mean, Jay vine is ninth. He might be the, the oldest guy.

Podcast Host / Narrator (30:17)

In the top 10.

Spencer Martin (30:17)

He's 29 years old. Like, have we reached no country for old men's status in the world Tour?

George Hincapie (30:24)

I don't know. I think, I mean, in my opinion, the season is so long and so hard and these. And I do, I do think as you get older, it's many times all about motivation. Like is a guy like Primos, you know, he's won pretty much everything he's done except for the Tour, you know, has Just finished the world. I mean, perhaps he's just not motivated to get to that next extra level. Like him getting a result a podium today in Lombardier does not affect his career whatsoever. So in my opinion, it's not a question of his fitness form, it's a question of how deep we are into the season and a lack of perhaps motivation.

Johan Berniel (31:06)

Yeah, it does, it does get more difficult with age, you know, and especially at the end of the season to stay, stay motivated. It's not just for the race, it's the way you prepare the race, how hungry you are to still train. You know, that's. I mean the two weeks before Lombardy, although they have done a few races, but they still need to train. And if you do your trainings, just what you have to do because that's what the plan says or if you do it with hunger and motivation and you know, really with inspiration, it's going to make a difference the way you show up at the race.

George Hincapie (31:41)

That's why it's so shocking. I mean, obviously Bobichard has no problem with motivation, but like he's been winning since his first race of the year and to keep winning to the end race of the year, it's something we haven't really witnessed in cycling.

Spencer Martin (31:54)

Well, that, yeah, it's a good, it's a good point. I mean, Larry, in the members chat, I will get to all these questions, but Larry's just popped one up. He said how much of Pagatra winning ways are a result of his genetic makeup? I would guess a lot. But the thing that surprises me most about Picachar is he's, he's truly a cannibal. Like he was going at it at the UAE Tour in what, February and now he's going just as hard in October. Like does this guy, he doesn't seem to have an off switch. It's unbelievable.

Johan Berniel (32:25)

Yeah, yeah, he's up there all the time. I mean they, they obviously they do race less. You know, just, he just races the races. He, he wants to win. He, he doesn't do any races nowadays. They don't do any more races to prepare. That's done. They, they train a lot harder and more specific for their goal than being stuck in whatever say Tour of Murcia and you just have to ride there for three, four days and, and you know, you're sitting in the peloton and you, you're in zone two not doing any work. Those times are over. They train a lot harder than the. Back in the days. George, you guys were sometimes using Certain stage races to prepare. Yeah, but that's just not, not. I mean you get worse sometimes if you go to a small stage race than what you would accomplish with specific training.

George Hincapie (33:22)

Yeah, I agree. Now they're, they're doing their efforts, they're, they're fueling themselves. Everything's completely dialed in, planned out. Yeah. Like Johan said, they're not doing these week long stage races for training anymore. He's just doing it to win races and he does the ones that he wants to win.

Spencer Martin (33:39)

Yeah. Someone said to me like, well, how.

Podcast Host / Narrator (33:41)

He looks so fresh.

Spencer Martin (33:42)

He's been racing three times this week and say, I would gander that his training is harder than these races, these midweek races. At least he's, if he's not racing, he's training incredibly hard. Harder than we thought.

Johan Berniel (33:54)

Yeah, well, I mean Spencer now at the end of the season probably. You know, listen, he, he's, he came into great shape again after Montreal. I mean we saw a little, a little, you know, adaptation for the, for the, the World championships time trial. But since he won the worlds, you can keep that. I mean he doesn't need to train that much. You know, he did the worlds, he did the, the European Championships. He did the other day. So there's not that, I mean it's, it's, I think it's the going the races full gas and then just coffee rides in my opinion. What's he doing? There's not much else. And then he did this recon of Lombardine. He did, he took his kom on the climber. He attacked today. So not much more to do.

Spencer Martin (34:40)

It's a, it's a good point. I mean I was thinking about that in, in the, in respect to. I would rather be doing what Pagacho is doing than assume you'd have to be training. If you're Jonas vinegard and you're at home, are you training right now or.

Podcast Host / Narrator (34:53)

Are you in your off season?

Spencer Martin (34:55)

How are you managing that?

George Hincapie (34:58)

I would say he's in the off season. I mean he just did the European Championships, what a week ago. Obviously didn't do a great result, but he deserves something. We all, they all deserve some, some sort of time off the bike. So I'm guessing he's probably off the bike right now.

Spencer Martin (35:14)

He's got that big crit coming up next weekend though. Johan. Well, to answer Larry's question, I would guess a lot. I was just like Jonas Krator, our friend at a stat that in the last 18 one day races, Pagacha is 1:17. We're one solo. I mean, there's training. He's clearly very good at training. Everything's dialed in. He's gotten better since they, they seem to have switched something behind the scenes. Two years ago or a year and a half ago, he's. And that's. Things have clicked for him, but I would imagine just physically it's like this in any sport. Why did I think Messi had as many free kick goals as the rest of the league? He was in for like a multi year period. Some people are just genetically better than other people.

Johan Berniel (35:57)

But yeah, he's definitely, he's definitely, you know, we've thought, we've talked about it many times. He's a huge talent. You know, he was, he was extremely good, very young. And we talked about it yesterday, Spencer on, on the show on Outcomes, you know, to consider that he won the two times the Tour de France, his first and second, when he was not really fine tuned yet. He was not super professional yet. You know, we talked about the physical transformation since, you know, his first time he showed up at Algarvey and won three stages in the Vuelta. And look at him now.

Spencer Martin (36:37)

It's funny you talk about the transformation. He might have been the strongest rider in that volta that he was maybe.

Johan Berniel (36:44)

Because he, I mean, it was Roglich wanted. And Valverde was second, I think, and he was third and he was flying.

Spencer Martin (36:50)

In that third week.

Johan Berniel (36:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, if you look at what he accomplished already without being super professional and we know that's true now, he's, you know, he has the best people around him, best trainers, best nutritionists, best, you know, aerodynamics people. Because that's also obviously a big advantage if you're on a huge team, huge budget team that they hired the best people from all over the world that are available. So, so it's, it's, I think it's, in my opinion, it's, it must be a very peaceful feeling for a guy like Pogachar that he knows that all the people around him are the best in the market. You get on your bike and, you know, you say, okay, you know, I know I'm good, I. Everything else is, you know, the best. So let's go.

Spencer Martin (37:45)

It's been a long process. It wasn't always like that.

Johan Berniel (37:48)

No.

Spencer Martin (37:48)

I also feel like we should mention the man is basically on a time trial bike.

Podcast Host / Narrator (37:52)

Like we.

Spencer Martin (37:53)

You talked about holding these gaps. That has to help. I mean, that bike is incredibly arrow that he's on.

Johan Berniel (38:00)

Yeah, it is, it is. They're also you know, uae, but also for example Colnago, they, they, they came a long way. You know, I mean when Colnago started with uae, from what I heard the bikes were not that good.

Spencer Martin (38:17)

I mean you can see in that picture you posted yesterday. Yeah, it's pretty simple bike.

Johan Berniel (38:21)

Yeah. And now, now it's top, top of the, top of, top of the game.

Spencer Martin (38:27)

So just to get into our in game here, you mentioned in the pre show Pagatra has four things left to win to match Eddie Merckx. Well to Espana. That will be one. Olympics. That will probably be one.

Johan Berniel (38:40)

But Eddie Merckx never won the Olympics by the way.

Spencer Martin (38:43)

Oh, to surpass.

Johan Berniel (38:45)

Wait, no. You know the funny story about the Mercks in the Olympics. So anyway he, he only went once because it was not open to professionals back then. Right. So the funny story about the Olympics in the, in the Merckx family is that. So Eddie never got an Olympic title or medal or metal. Axel got bronze, his son got bronze in Athens In I think 2000, was it 2000, 2008, 2004. It was, it was Bettini Paolino and Axel Merckx and so his grandson Luca, Luca Maso, who is the, the son of Sabrina, Eddie's daughter was a hockey player. Grass like hockey. Some not ice hockey. Hockey.

Spencer Martin (39:35)

Like field hockey.

Johan Berniel (39:36)

Yeah. And that's actually a really funny story. I don't know, I don't know if you know that story George. So his dad was an ex, as an Argentinian ex tennis player, Eduardo Masso. So he had double nationality. And Luca Maso was playing for in Belgium competition for the Belgian team and he was not selected for the national team for the Olympic Games. And so he applied for a spot on the Argentinian team for the Olympics. He got selected for Argentina, did the Olympics and the final of the Olympic Games Hockey was Argentina, Belgium really. And Argentina won. So Luca Maso is an Olympic champion. Yeah, that's his grandson, Eddie's grandson pencil.

Spencer Martin (40:27)

Pagatran for the Olympics. And then you. And then we get to the two tough ones. Milan San Remo, Perry, Ruby. Let's just as a Perry Roubaix we can see a path. He was close this year in my opinion Sanremo is the toughest. And right on cue, Raul in the chat asks what does Tade need to do to win Milan San Remo? I mean what would your answer be there? This seems to be the, the hardest one remaining in his path. And that also speaks to the motivation you talked about. Like what's keeping him motivated? I guarantee you, it's these races. He's not wondering.

George Hincapie (41:03)

Yeah. And he lives right down the road from San Remo as well. And these guys all know that climb like the back of their hand. He's been, he's been close. It's just similar tactics to what we've seen. Although San Remo, the climbs aren't quite as steep. So guys like Vanderpool then Art, they, they can usually hang on to him when he goes. I think an all out assault from his team. Already on the suppressor. Favorable wins for a hard pace. Not a, not a headwind, obviously a tailwind. It'll make the climb even harder. Yeah, I think, and they got, they'll, I think we'll probably, if he does in fact want to win San Remo, we will see that type of tactic next year.

Johan Berniel (41:41)

Yeah, I think, I think I agree, George. You know, he, they need to have a harder race on the Tupressa and in my opinion he needs to be able to get away on the Chipresta because on the Podgio it's difficult. You know, I mean, especially, I mean, listen, especially Vanderpool, he has that. I mean, and of course, you know, they don't always show up in the same shape every season. Right. If you just 1 or 2% off, it may be enough. Right. I would, I mean at some point I thought, you know, he almost had Vanderpool on the podio this year, but then wonderful attacked on the top. I think Milan San Remo is going to be the most difficult honestly to win for, for Pogacha because. Yeah, I mean the thing is also, I mean, I mean maybe maybe another scenario could be have a teammate in the break and, and try to go alone on the Tipresa and, and have somebody in between the Chipresa and the, and the Podgio. But no team will let that happen. You know, if there's a UAE rider in the break, they're not, they're not going to let that break go.

Spencer Martin (42:47)

Other teams, kilometer zero attack, but it's like, it's. George is like I fed you this answer. This is exactly what I wanted you to say. You saw him today. They go into the Paso de Gonda and he's, he's doing traffic control with his team. Del Toro is not where he needs to be. And that's been a problem at Sanremo, I believe, the last two years where especially two years ago, the team was not positioned correctly. Going in the Chapressa, he didn't have the team to set the hard pace. I almost think it Sounds ridiculous. He's in Lombardia thinking about drilling the team for San Remo. I, I guarantee you he's incredibly motivated to win. And they, they did, they did the playbook today. They just need to do it. The precision at Sanremo has to be. It's so much higher, the bar is so much higher because the pace is faster, everything's tougher. And it brings us to this funny thing where these hard races are, are essentially no non contests anymore. And the only thing interesting in cycling anymore are the easier races like San Ramo, which used to be considered the most boring race, is now in my opinion the most exciting race because anything could happen.

George Hincapie (43:51)

Yeah, well, I mean just, just what you just said Spencer, is what it's easier said than done. I mean the position for the suppressor in Milan Center Remo is one of the hardest, most stressful positioning games in all of cycling. Because it's not that hard to get there. So everybody gets there fresh. You have full team lead outs, windy roads, very easy to sit on the wheel. Although of course the distance starts to play a big role. But I mean no matter how strong UAE is, when they're battling out with these guys, hardcore classics guys, it's still a very tough task to get the whole team together at the bottom of suppressor. Wouldn't you agree, Johan?

Johan Berniel (44:26)

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I think that's why I say, I think Milan San Remo is the most difficult because it is so accessible for the majority of the team to get. Of the teams and riders to get in a decent position to the chip pressa today for example, it's not even an issue because after 200k everybody's dead. And, and they have 404,000 meters already in the legs. And that's not the case in Milan San Remo. I think that's the more going to be the most difficult one. But he's been close a few times already. It'll take maybe, yeah, an off day of one of the other guys. You know, Vanderpoel vote Ghana was there this year also.

Spencer Martin (45:13)

Yeah, I mean the problem is they're going terminal velocity up the poggio so I don't think they can go any faster. So they gotta move that attack further out.

Johan Berniel (45:24)

Yeah, yeah, well, I mean two years ago Phillips in one. So I mean it's, it's, it's never a decisive. That's the difference with all the other races. So even if, even if Pagacha gets away by himself or with two other guys, there's, it's Never going to be a minute or, you know, not even 30 seconds. It's the. The other guys are always there and they. There's always that possibility that they can make it back. It happened two years ago when, When Jasper Phillipson won. Yeah.

Spencer Martin (45:54)

And, yeah, I mean, that's. I think San Rain was the best race of the year because of that.

Johan Berniel (45:58)

The.

Spencer Martin (45:59)

A few questions for you, like, where do we go from here? What's the future like? Does Picacho just keep winning in perpetuity? I. I assume no. And then how does it end and who ends it.

Johan Berniel (46:13)

Gonna go first, George?

George Hincapie (46:14)

Yeah. I mean, what we're seeing, these young people, you know, rising up. Del Toro, sex sauce. They're still 21, 19 years old. 21 years old. I mean, you gotta think they're gonna keep getting better and better. Boguchar now is on the upper. At levels of the twenties. Of the twenties, which back in our day was still super young. But, I mean, you, you, you, you think it'd be hard to imagine him to increase and continue to improve. But you can see these younger guys improving because they're still super young and have several ways of improvement. But, I mean, that's the only thing I can say because right now this current form has just been unbeatable. Yeah.

Johan Berniel (46:52)

I think the guy who ends it is Pugacha himself.

George Hincapie (46:55)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (46:56)

It's when he's going to lose motivation and be burned out. And I can see that because, man, you know, like, we saw that. We saw the images on the. Was it in the. It was in the European. European Championships now, where people were matching him and putting stickers on his back. And today also, you know, on that climb, that actually gets to you. I've seen a few big champions that, you know, physically, they were still able to do it, but there's only so much your. Your motivation and your patience and your. Your dedication can take and. And it. It wears out after a while.

George Hincapie (47:38)

How did.

Spencer Martin (47:38)

Yeah, I was thinking about that point, Johan. How did Merck's domination and he got punched in the kidney and then he lost that tour. And then what happened after that?

Johan Berniel (47:50)

I think he won it one more time.

Spencer Martin (47:51)

So, yeah, so that's what I was. I do think what will happen is Pagachar will lose. And then you enter this second. Second phase. It's almost like the fire is reignited because someone will come up, whether it's Paul Seychas, Isaac Del Toro, and beat him. And then you're fighting so much for, like, that last win. Like, usually you don't Come back and win a bunch. But that's what's so impressive. He lost two already and come, came back and won multiple ones after that. That's almost unheard of. But I do think he will get.

Podcast Host / Narrator (48:21)

Beat and then, and then it either.

Spencer Martin (48:24)

Is go away forever or he has to come back and try to win another one. But he's not nearly as dominant.

Johan Berniel (48:29)

Kind of like I think Eddie Merckx from what I mean I, I'm not 100% sure but I think Eddie Merckx didn't win any Grand Tour anymore after 30. I think he's his last one. He was 29 or 30 and because I think he won his first four and then he lost one and then he won another one and then he didn't win anymore. I think if I'm not mistaken, yeah.

Spencer Martin (48:57)

I'm even thinking of like Contador, you know, dominant. And then another generation comes up, oh.

Johan Berniel (49:03)

Froome showed up with Contour was Froome showed up and that was it.

Spencer Martin (49:06)

But even remember there was the Giro where he's getting dropped by Landa and Fabio Aru and he had to fight his way up the Fenestra and wins his, his last year at Italia. I do think we have that phase from Bogachar. It's hard to imagine now, but I.

Sponsor Representative (Element) (49:21)

Think he, yeah, dominant forever.

Johan Berniel (49:24)

No, no, of course not, of course not. But you know, again, I, I, I said it yesterday and George, I don't know you, you'll probably agree with me.

Spencer Martin (49:31)

You know.

Johan Berniel (49:34)

Since I have been actively in, in cycling since I started racing myself and then through all the years because you know, I have a vague memory of Merckx, but there's never any been anybody so dominant on all levels as Talepogachar in the last.

Spencer Martin (49:52)

50 years.

Johan Berniel (49:53)

I would say so, you know, if you think about Froome and Contador and you know, they were never so dominant. I mean they were there but they also lost sometimes. They didn't always win. This guy just always wins.

George Hincapie (50:07)

Well, they would rarely win one day races.

Spencer Martin (50:09)

I don't even know if they ever won major one day races. I can think of, no, they didn't. Two more questions. First, this one, I don't even like this question, but I'm gonna ask it. Is this, is this good for cycling, this dominance?

George Hincapie (50:27)

I don't, I mean I think it's maybe it gets a little bit boring after a while because you kind of know exactly what's going to happen. But at the same time, you know, you have a once in 100 year rider that we're able to witness, you know, greatness. So in that sense it's pretty, pretty cool to, to witness as well.

Johan Berniel (50:46)

I think, I think it's great if the best guy wins and even if he wins all the time, if he's the best and he wins, I mean, I think it's great for the sport especially. I mean, what's even more, what's even more impressive with, with Pogacha is that cycling is probably one of the most unpredictable sports. I mean, you lose a lot more than you win. You know, it's not like in any other sport if you're the best, okay, you win track and field, you're the best. You win most of the times, right? But cycling is, you lose, you lose a lot more. And, and this guy just always wins. So. No, I, I, I, I like it, I like it. I'm, I mean, I'm a Pogacha fan for sure.

Spencer Martin (51:29)

Yeah, it's like a, you know, people forget what it's, you're in the middle of the, like Tiger woods is most impressive run. Usain Bolt, you know, there's these once in century athletes and you just have to enjoy it because it will be over. You forget. Also here's my, my mini take on this is. We've, we have seen three major races that suit him perfectly. So like World Championships, European championships, Lombardia, it will like next season will roll around and he's got to go, he's got to go play in the mud in the classics and people will overrate his dominance. They'll forget that Vanderpoel beat him multiple times last year. And there'll probably be a betting opportunity to bet on someone like Vanderpoel or someone who's going to beat him and he'll look human again. It's just been, it's been a funny end of the season where you had the Tour and then all these races have been ultra hard. So of course he looks dominant. I think we're seeing, he's very good. Obviously he's the best, I think ever. But, but you've seen the, the field has been slanted in his favor and it won't always be this way. Last question before we go. Also, I just want to give shout outs to Lombardi. Looked amazing, by the way.

Johan Berniel (52:36)

Man.

Spencer Martin (52:36)

Want to go to Bergamo also. We should say Tudor getting on the podium. Quinn Simmons, I think we already shouted him out. That was super impressive. Paul Seychelles 19 getting seventh. Isaac Del Toro, you're amazing. Kind of Udabrooks getting 10th. Good result.

George Hincapie (52:51)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (52:52)

But last question before we go. Also, I. This race is. People are going to complain about it, but the leaves are turning. It just looks nice on tv. It's not too intense. You kind of sit there, you watch it. A great way to end the season, but David Brown asked this the other day and he put it again in the chat. Is this season with three monument wins, only one Grand Tour win, the Tour de France World Championship win, is it more impressive than last season where he won two Grand Tours but only two monuments? I believe, unless I have that wrong. Yeah, only two monuments.

George Hincapie (53:28)

Last year, I think he even said in his interview his best season ever. But yeah, I would say even more impressive than last year, I think so.

Johan Berniel (53:35)

I think his level this year is higher. His dominance was unbelievable. I mean, only one Grand Tour because he only did one Spencer, you know, it's, you know, he did all five monuments, was on all the monuments on the podium, plus a bunch of other races that there was no reason, really no room for him for, for a second Grand Tour.

Spencer Martin (54:01)

Well, I mean, right there, that. Has that ever been done before? All monuments on the podium?

Johan Berniel (54:06)

No, no, no, no. I said it before. It's never been done. Never.

Spencer Martin (54:09)

That is, I mean, that is, that just sunk in for me. Wow.

George Hincapie (54:15)

Wow.

Spencer Martin (54:16)

That's crazy. This whole podcast could be us just saying, wow, that's crazy. Never seen that before. Yeah, that's a. And then if you guys had to pick the next big star of the sport just from the last few races, who, who are you going to pick?

George Hincapie (54:31)

I say Del Toro. I mean. Yeah, amazing.

Johan Berniel (54:36)

Yeah, Del Toro, you know, it's also, I mean, he can, he, he's a, he's a stage racer, can win a Grand Tour, he almost won the Giro and he wins one day races. I don't see him do what. I mean, I, I, A guy like Del Toro, for example, I don't see him in Ruby and Flanders. I think it's a different type of rider.

Spencer Martin (54:59)

But did we see when Pagatra was that age? I don't think we saw him.

Johan Berniel (55:03)

Yeah, right. No, but, but, but anyway, I think we're, we're witnessing something unique with Pogachar and, and we're already starting. I mean, listen, we, we said before, you know, we're not, we're not going to compare riders with each other. I mean, you could compare Del Toro with Bogacha because they're from the same era, but I don't, I don't think it's comparable. You know, there's nobody who can be compared right now with pugach of. Of today cycling. Do you agree, George?

George Hincapie (55:35)

No. No. I mean, not that I can remember.

Spencer Martin (55:40)

The crazy thing about potential del Toro's season is he almost won the Giro d'. Italia. And it's easy to forget. You know, like, even if you take that Giro out of the picture, he still had one of the best seasons.

Johan Berniel (55:51)

He won 15 races, Spencer. 15 races.

Spencer Martin (55:54)

That's crazy. And.

Johan Berniel (55:55)

And Pogacha was. The day was his 20th win of the season. 20th, right.

Spencer Martin (55:59)

Yep. Got him up to 40 win rate for the season. 50 starts, 20 wins.

Johan Berniel (56:03)

Unbelievable. You see, that's. That's. That. That's crazy.

Spencer Martin (56:07)

That is crazy.

Johan Berniel (56:08)

And that includes the stages in the stage races. So just imagine how many stages there are, like, support in the Tour that he's actually not even going for it. So that's already out the wind. Wow. That's. And 40 he wins.

Spencer Martin (56:23)

Wow.

Johan Berniel (56:23)

That's crazy.

Spencer Martin (56:24)

It's crazy. I mean, it does help that. And there's not many races outside the Tour France that he didn't win, so that does help your numbers quite a bit.

Johan Berniel (56:33)

Well, it does. I mean, there's stages he didn't win in stage races.

Spencer Martin (56:37)

A few. A few. There's one He. He didn't win the bunch. Prince. Yeah. I mean, think of all the breakaway days of the Tour. It was like the whole last half of the race. I mean, that's crazy. All right, anything else, guys, before we take off?

Johan Berniel (56:54)

Yeah, I think that's it. No.

Spencer Martin (56:58)

Thanks for joining. And we'll be back on Friday for our Q and A. And then Tour de France root reveal with an. With another Special guest on October 23rd.

Johan Berniel (57:08)

Okay, thanks.

George Hincapie (57:10)

Thanks, guys.