Breaking Down Remco Evenepoel’s Blockbuster Transfer to RedBull-Bora-Hansgrohe | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Breaking Down Remco Evenepoel’s Blockbuster Transfer to RedBull-Bora-Hansgrohe | THEMOVE+

Release Date: August 14, 2025

Hosts: Spencer Martin and Johan Berniel

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1. Introduction and Welcome Back

Timestamp: [01:13]

Spencer Martin kicks off the episode by welcoming listeners back to THEMOVE alongside co-host Johan Berniel, highlighting their return from a long sabbatical and recent vacation. They set the stage for an in-depth discussion on major cycling transfers, with a primary focus on Remco Evenepoel's significant move to RedBull-Bora-Hansgrohe.

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2. Remco Evenepoel’s Transfer to RedBull-Bora-Hansgrohe

Timestamp: [01:49 - 17:55]

Discussion Points:

• Reasons for the Transfer: Johan explains that Remco Evenepoel's desire to leave Soudal Quickstep was no secret. He emphasizes that keeping a rider unhappy isn't beneficial for team performance or morale.

  Johan Berniel: "Remco wanted to leave Soudal. It’s not good for the atmosphere of the whole team to keep a rider against his will." ([06:58])

• Financial Implications: Johan estimates Remco's contract termination involved a buyout fee ranging between €2-3 million, along with Sudal Quickstep saving approximately €4 million by not paying his contract next year.

  Johan Berniel: "It's probably somewhere between 2 and 3 million, making it a 6 or 7 million euro bonus operation for Sudal." ([11:27])

• Red Bull’s Expectations: The hosts discuss Red Bull’s strategic move to bolster their team with a high-caliber rider like Remco, aiming for enhanced performance in both Grand Tours and one-day classics.

  Spencer Martin: "Red Bull gets Remco. Big deal. Now they have someone who could realistically podium Liege at least one spring monument." ([14:30])

• Impact on Soudal Quickstep: Johan suggests that Soudal Quickstep will likely rebuild their team focus towards classics, signing riders like Dylan Van Baarle and Jasper Staven for 2026 to realign with their core identity.

  Johan Berniel: "They want to rebuild towards their core identity of a classics team." ([12:46])

• Red Bull’s Team Dynamics: The arrival of Remco is seen as a boost not just for results but also for team attractiveness, potentially drawing more talented riders due to his strong leadership and personality.

  Johan Berniel: "Having a strong leader like Remco makes the team more attractive for other riders." ([22:32])

Notable Quotes:

• Spencer Martin: "If you want to hone in on those winning moves, check out Chumba Casino." ([00:32]) — (Note: This is part of an advertisement and should generally be omitted from the summary.)
• Johan Berniel: "Remco is coming into an environment where people are going to think for him and they're going to propose things to him." ([06:58])
• Spencer Martin: "Remco is kind of the obvious choice [for Red Bull]." ([24:29])

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3. Dylan Groenvagina’s Move to Unibet Tulip Rockets

Timestamp: [28:06 - 31:37]

Discussion Points:

• Team Overview: Johan provides background on the Unibet Tulip Rockets, a team founded by Bas Tetama, a former professional rider who transitioned to managing a team through his YouTube channel.

  Johan Berniel: "They started the YouTube channel and that's actually how he started the team with two of his friends." ([29:04])

• Performance and Growth: The team has rapidly ascended, showcasing impressive performances in their first two years and aiming to secure invitations to major races like the Tour de France by affiliating with France.

  Johan Berniel: "They’ve become from a Dutch team, they've become a French team. Their goal is to get in the Tour." ([29:04])

• Financial Aspects: Spencer raises concerns about the financial sustainability of the team, questioning how they can afford high rider salaries despite being a relatively new and evolving team.

  Spencer Martin: "How can they afford this? Like a million euros a year." ([30:22])

Notable Quotes:

• Johan Berniel: "In their first year already, they are everywhere in many races with great results." ([29:04])
• Spencer Martin: "Changing bike sponsor by the way. They're on Cannondale now. They're not going to be on Cannondale next year." ([31:03])

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4. Merger of Intermarché-Wanty-Gobert with Lotto

Timestamp: [31:37 - 38:09]

Discussion Points:

• Merger Details: Johan explains that the merger between Intermarché-Wanty-Gobert and Lotto was unexpected, with many riders and staff potentially facing contract terminations.

  Johan Berniel: "Nobody saw this coming and the news got out during the Tour de France." ([32:02])

• Impact on Riders: Binyam Girmai is unlikely to return to the merged team, leading to uncertainty about his future and the distribution of contracts among the combined roster.

  Spencer Martin: "Binyam Girmai is not coming back to the team." ([32:02])

• Financial Constraints: The combined budget is estimated to be around €15-20 million, which might not accommodate all existing contracts, resulting in potential payouts and rider departures.

  Johan Berniel: "Lotto's now 15 million or something... Probably not, it's a big co-sponsor." ([37:20])

• Future of Riders: Discussions include where riders like Binyam Girmai might transfer, suggesting teams like Astana as possible destinations.

  Spencer Martin: "Where does Binyam go, you think? Astana probably." ([38:09])

Notable Quotes:

• Johan Berniel: "A merger is never great. It can leave a lot of people without a job." ([35:00])
• Spencer Martin: "The combined team has 38 riders under contract." ([35:54])

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5. Ineos Team’s Transfer Freezes and Strategic Adjustments

Timestamp: [38:09 - 46:52]

Discussion Points:

• Transfer Freeze: Johan discusses how Dave Brailsford of Ineos has put a freeze on new hirings due to budget constraints, affecting riders like Filippo Zana who were in talks for contracts.

  Johan Berniel: "Dave Brailsford has sat down, looked at the contracts and said, what the heck's going on?" ([38:09])

• Potential Signings: The uncertainty around signings emphasizes Ineos’s strategic shift to possibly focus on securing top-tier riders like Remco Evenepoel instead of spreading resources thin.

  Spencer Martin: "Brailsford is trying to keep options open until he's sure he cannot get another big name." ([43:54])

• Team Performance: Despite transfer issues, Ineos has seen success in the latter part of the season with riders like Ben Turner and Victor Langelotti securing World Tour victories, indicating a turnaround in team performance.

  Spencer Martin: "They won six World Tour races throughout the first part of the year. In the last three weeks alone, they've won four." ([45:00])

Notable Quotes:

• Spencer Martin: "Brailsford is pretty good at negotiating." ([43:25])
• Johan Berniel: "With Total Energies on board now, it's still unclear how it's possible to have two teams." ([44:20])

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6. Relegation Battle and Team Rankings

Timestamp: [52:58 - 59:46]

Discussion Points:

• Current Rankings: Johan and Spencer analyze the shifting landscape of team rankings, highlighting how teams like Cofidis are at risk of relegation due to poor performance and limited points accumulation.

  Spencer Martin: "Cofidis is in 20th overall with 5,500 points essentially." ([55:05])

• Impact of Top Teams: The performance of top teams like UNOX and the emergence of teams like Q36.5 influence the relegation dynamics, potentially allowing ambitious teams like the Tetama Rockets to rise.

  Johan Berniel: "UNOX is pretty good at winning one-day races and there's a bunch still to come." ([55:29])

• Effect of Transfers: The merger of Intermarché-Wanty-Gobert with Lotto and the frozen transfers at Ineos contribute to the instability and competitive balance within team rankings.

  Spencer Martin: "The relegation battle shifted because there's an extra spot now." ([53:06])

• Potential Outcomes: Johan notes that relegated teams like Cofidis may struggle to stay in the World Tour, while teams like UNOX continue to perform strongly, affecting overall team standings.

  Johan Berniel: "They have to make smart sporting decisions to get better." ([59:00])

Notable Quotes:

• Spencer Martin: "Cofidis is really struggling. They are chewing up a spot." ([56:15])
• Johan Berniel: "Cofidis is battling UNOX and Q36.5." ([56:54])

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7. Mountain Bike Championships and Rider Strategies

Timestamp: [59:46 - 62:21]

Discussion Points:

• Tom Pidcock’s Decision: The hosts discuss Tom Pidcock's choice to skip the World Mountain Bike Championships to focus on the Vuelta a España, aiming to secure valuable UCI points that could influence team standings.

  Spencer Martin: "Tom Pidcock not doing the World Mountain Bike Championships because he's going to the Vuelta for top 10." ([56:29])

• Impact on Championships: They speculate on the potential outcomes if Pidcock focuses on stage races versus participating in mountain bike events, considering his strong pedigree and previous championship successes.

  Johan Berniel: "He just won the European Championships recently." ([61:07])

• Van der Poel’s Prospects: The conversation touches on Mathieu van der Poel's likelihood of winning the World Mountain Bike Championships, given his exceptional talent and performance history.

  Johan Berniel: "If he doesn't win, it's because he's going to have some kind of mishap." ([61:56])

Notable Quotes:

• Spencer Martin: "The top three pro teams qualify for all the races. UNOX is first, so Cofidis is in danger." ([55:29])
• Johan Berniel: "Pitcock being present at races is crucial for team invitations." ([59:46])

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8. Closing Remarks and Teasers for Next Episode

Timestamp: [63:00 - 64:07]

Spencer Martin and Johan Berniel wrap up the episode by highlighting impressive performances from riders like Corbin Strong and teasing an upcoming deep dive into the time trial strategies at the Tour of Denmark. They express excitement for future battles in races like the Vuelta a España and the World Mountain Bike Championships.

Spencer Martin: "We'll do our in-depth deep dive of stage three of the time trial at the Tour of Denmark next week." ([62:37])

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Conclusion

In this episode of THEMOVE+, Spencer Martin and Johan Berniel provide a comprehensive analysis of significant transfers within the professional cycling teams, with a spotlight on Remco Evenepoel’s move to RedBull-Bora-Hansgrohe. They explore the financial and strategic motivations behind these moves, the implications for team dynamics, and the broader impact on the competitive landscape of cycling. Additionally, the hosts delve into the ongoing relegation battles, team mergers, and strategic decisions affecting rider participation in major championships. The episode offers listeners an insider’s perspective on the evolving world of professional cycling, enriched with expert insights and timely commentary.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Johan Berniel: "Remco is coming into an environment where people are going to think for him and they're going to propose things to him." ([06:58])
• Spencer Martin: "Remco is kind of the obvious choice [for Red Bull]." ([24:29])
• Johan Berniel: "A merger is never great. It can leave a lot of people without a job." ([35:00])

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments from the podcast transcript have been omitted to maintain focus on the core discussions and analyses presented by the hosts.

Transcript

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[Johan Berniel]

Let'S just take the tour out of the equation, Spencer. I mean no matter where Remco is as long as today and Jonas raised the tour, he's not going to win. So it's as simple as that.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody, welcome back to the move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. After a long, long sabbatical, we are back with our weekly show. Johan and I just got back from vacation. We're going to run through a few major transfers including including Remco having a pole to Red Bull, the big one and then a few smaller ones like Dylan Groenvagin to Unibet Tetama Rockets. What that means for the team, how Sudal Quickstep is going to rebuild and what the heck is going on Withineos. But Johan, before we get started, where have you been? How was your vacation? Did you take. Did you take some time after the tour?

[Johan Berniel]

It was short because I'm actually tomorrow leaving for the second part of my vacation to Belgium for a long period of time, almost three weeks. But yeah, we were in the area of Calpe, Benisa Denia. I was actually in Pedreguer in the the. You know, I wanted to check out that hotel where a lot of high performance athletes are staying. It's called Synchros Fera where we've seen Remco evenepool. And sometimes the majority of the team of Alpecin, Matthew van der Poel, staying there. They're very famous to have, I would say, probably half of the hotel is. They have altitude rooms. So basically, I mean, it's pretty impressive. It's owned by Alexander Kolopnev, who I met and, you know, he gave me a tour. A tour at silver medalist, by the way. In the worlds. No, in the Worlds. In the worlds. A few times. A few. A few medals in. In worlds and Olympics. But. So, yeah, it was pretty impressive, actually. I can understand now why certain teams go there. It's very nice. And I also had the opportunity to ride my bike with. With Matthew White. We, you know, he lives in the area, so we rode for a week together, which was very nice. Our sons race, I mean, against each other. Uh, so they went training every day together. And then the dads went on. On a coffee ride every day, which.

[Spencer Martin]

On the faster ride, the superior ride of the two, I'm sure. I. Well, I. It's not. We are not sponsored by that hotel, but I do want to check that hotel out. It looks amazing.

[Johan Berniel]

It's very nice.

[Spencer Martin]

I'm jealous. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, to get back at it, that we're back in the business, you also ran into. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Like, it's just weird to me to think these guys have lives outside of the Tour, but like Vanderpoel and Philipson, I don't know what I thought they were doing, but then they're at the hotel training, and then I get. And now they're racing again. And then they kind of have to ramp up for their second. I guess their second goals after the Tour.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, Philipson, when I. When I first got there, Philipson, I saw him at breakfast, so I talked to him a little bit. And he was staying there for, I think, one or two days only. Then he moved to another place and he told me that he was starting again. So he's preparing for the Vuelta. Since he crashed out very early in the Tour de France. He's gonna do the Vuelta, but. Yeah, and then I saw that he just started in the Tour of Denmark, which is, you know, I guess it's to get back into the rhythm. Then two or three days later, I mean, they were sitting there on the terrace and Mathieu van der Poel was there also. They seemed to come to the hotel to use the facilities to do short training sessions at altitude. The hotel is. I mean, they have rooms, but they also have a gym and part of the gym is adapted so you can basically program the altitude that you want. I think you can go up till 3500 meters. So that seems to be something that they're doing right now. And I'm pretty sure it's. It's common in. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know that, but it's pretty common in, in modern cycling.

[Spencer Martin]

That, that's pretty interesting. Where I live, I'm high. I'm the opposite of that. And like, back in the day I had a coach that would like, hook. Hook you up to like oxygen, basically, so you could do training at sea level while living high. That's kind of, that's interesting to hear. They're doing it the opposite way, like, because that goes against live high, train low and like, they're living low and then training at altitude. I'd be curious the science behind that and like, why exactly they're doing it. But that's sweet. The hotel, you can just set whatever altitude you want.

[Johan Berniel]

That's.

[Spencer Martin]

That's quite nice.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. This. I'm going to Belgium now tomorrow and there's. Actually, I'm going to go check it out. There's. There's a new hotel in very close to where I live actually. It's. And it's actually, I mean, there's, there's a. There's teams that have rented it out already for long periods of time. It's the whole hotel also. And they have even a cinema room at Altitude. So, I mean, I guess it's, it's. I guess it's a profitable business.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I, I'm. I'm ready. I'm ready and willing to go. If, if they pay for us, we'll do some live shows from there. It's. It's a win. Win. But Johan, to get back to business, the. The big news is. And I did. The only thing on my vacation I felt like was passing me by was this Remco having a pull to Red Bull news. We knew that. We knew it was going to happen during the Tour, but it still like popped quite a bit. It was, it was big news because, I mean, he has a year left on his deal with Sudok Quickstep. Presumably he's being bought out by Red Bull. Bora Hansgroh to go over to be there. Question mark. Tour de France leader, Spring classics leader. Like, I guess my questions for you are, how do you think this went down? Why did Sudaw Quickstep sell? What type of money did this take? And then what is Red Bull like? What's what would define success for Red Bull with this transfer?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, I think it was no secret that Remco wanted to leave Soudal. Right. And if I put myself in the position of Sudal, I would say, okay, you know, let's try to get. Make this a profitable business. You don't want to have a rider who's there against his will or who's not happy. You know, he's not going to perform 100%. It's also not good for the atmosphere of the whole team. I. I don't think you should ever keep a writer against his will because. Just because he has a contract, especially a writer of that kind of contract. Right, because it's a huge. I mean, it's a big chunk in the, in the budget Red Bull. I mean, obviously, if you look at all the riders that are right now at the top, you have Pogachar, who's not. Not going anywhere. You have Jonas, who's not going anywhere. And then after those two, it's, you know, you have a pool of riders. And Remco is one of those, you know, let's not for. He was okay. He abandoned this year's Tour. But let's not forget, you know, he was third in the Tour last year. He won the Vuelta. He's multiple world champion on the road time trial, double Olympic champion, you know. Did he win it twice? I guess he won twice, three times. San Sebastian. I mean, he won a bunch of races that, you know, there's not that many riders of that kind of caliber that are or could be on the market. Remco was not on the market, but he kind of was because he wanted to leave. So it all depends the amount of effort and the amount of money it has cost to Red Bull. I, I personally, I think it's. It's not a bad move. Definitely a good move for Remco, that's for sure. Because, you know, he's. If he wants to go up a level, I think he needed to find a team where, I mean, not saying that he didn't have this at his disposal at Sudal, you know, because they, I think they accommodated 95% of the wishes of Remco. But I think the initiative came from Remco. He said, I want this, I want this, I want this. And then the team accommodated that for him. How did you. Training, performance, staff. Yeah, especially wind tunnels, this and that. This is going to be different now for America. It's the team who's going to propose it to him. He's not going to have to think about anything. Because at Red Bull they do have the infrastructure and the manpower and the resources. Whereas I think, I mean, it's just an assumption that at Sudal, all of these extras is a huge effort, especially budget wise. So I think that's, he's coming into an environment where people are going to think for him and they're going to propose things to him, whereas he had to propose to the team in the past. I think that's going to be the main, the main change difference for Remco now for Red Bull. If you really want to, I mean, it's, you know, you have to look to the future also you need to keep strengthening your team when you get a big champion on board. I mean, I want to insist, you know, we, that we don't have to judge Remco now on, based on the abandon of the Tour. Let's not forget everything he has done already. If you look at his Palmares, there's not that many riders riding in the peloton right now with that kind of pedigree. And if you bring a rider like that, it ups the game of the rest, you know, guys who are the leaders. It's kind of a little wake up call. I said, you know, I need, I need, I need to, I need to be ready here because in healthy competition, healthy inside competition, right? And then, you know, they have, I mean, let's say the two big riders right now. I mean it's, it's, it's Roglic and Lipowitz because he just got third at the Tour. But this is recent, so it still needs to be confirmed. And if you see that Roglic, at the end of this career, he's not going to raise that many more years. I think it's, it's kind of a transfer that makes sense for Red Bull.

[Spencer Martin]

And first at all. Quickstep, they would let him go because they get paid, they get paid a buyout fee and they don't have to pay him next year. Is that the benefit?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, if you, if roughly, roughly. I mean, these are just estimates, right? So first of all, I would assume that Remco's contract globally with bonuses and everything included, probably around 4 million. 4 million. So that's 4 million you don't have to pay next year and then a buyout, whatever it is they've negotiated. So normally if you look at the Belgian legislation, you can leave as a Belgian employee from a Belgian company, you can leave if you pay your contract. It depends how big the basic contract is I would assume bonuses are not part of that rule within the Belgian law. So I think the buyout's probably somewhere between 2 and 3 million if I have to guess. So let's say it's a 6 or 7 million euro bonus operation for Sudal, which is, you know, considerable. It's a big, it's a big co sponsor.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And then I guess in theory you rebuilt, you rebuilt the team that maybe is not in a. Probably not trying to win the Tour de France. Like maybe more one day ambitions.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. Plus, plus there's riders on that team. I mean, I guess if I'm not mistaken. Is it. What's the Italian guy's name he also abandoned in the Tour after, after crashing out. Catano is going with him. That's. I think that's the only rider I've seen so far. Then a DS and a mechanic and a swan year. I think that's, you know, that's the package. And so it also opens new opportunities for riders at sudok Quickstep when a big leader like that goes. And it looks to me like they want to rebuild towards their core identity of a classics team because they've signed Dylan Van Barle and Jasper Staven for 2026. So that obviously is focusing more on the classics again.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean we can talk later about like can those guys really challenge the big classics. But you have to imagine even, you know, you could imagine one of them winning Amloop and Kern or both and is that successful for them. But let's talk about Red Bull for a second. So now Red Bull gets Remco. Big deal. Right? But, and I kind of like it from a one day perspective. Like now they have someone who could very realistically podium Liege at least one spring monument. I still, I still think RIMCO could be a good Flanders rider. I just, maybe, maybe I'm crazy with that. But like at least Amstel liaise the Ardennes. You now have a contender for stage races. Does this totally make sense? Like they got third at the Tour this year. Are they realistically going to improve on that with Remco?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean let's just, let's just take the Tour out of the equation. Spencer. I mean with no matter where Remco is, as long as today and Jonas raised the Tour, he's not going to win. So it's, it's as simple as that. I mean, okay, if, if, if, if today doesn't race and Jonas is the heavy favorite, then things could change because it changes the whole dynamics of the race. But still, I mean he's not ever been close to Jonas. I mean, yeah, last, I mean last year, even last year, you know, when Jonas was not 100. He's never been able to, to follow Jonas. I think on, on uphill finishes. So I think you need to leave the Tour out of the equation. And it's not just the Tour. There's other races and there's a lot of one day race, one week races which Remco is specialist, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

But. What? Well, okay, okay. That's what I thought too. And then I went back and looked it up. Do you know how many top seven one week races he's won in his career? It's zero.

[Johan Berniel]

None. Yeah, so none.

[Spencer Martin]

So yeah, it's like he's a one week specialist but struggles to win one week races and actually is unclear to me why? Because he's a great time trialist. That's usually the foundation for a one week win in. So it's inconsistent.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think we need to question that. Spencer. Listen, somebody who has won the Tour of Spain and, and, and third in the Tour can win any one week race. I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Why is it not happening?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, you know, let's see if, if he's with Red Bull it can change.

[Spencer Martin]

You know I guess that that would be the bet Red Bull's making that we can rock up to Paris Nice when Paris Nice. We can win Dauphine, Roman D, Basque country and we're cruising and we can't with the current. I guess. Well, I guess where, so where does this leave Roglic? Because he's a pretty good racer too. Pretty good one week racer Grand Tour. Are they just on totally different timelines or.

[Johan Berniel]

I think they're going to be on different programs. I mean there's, they're, they're both ambitious guys and, and you know, even, even Primos, you know, I don't know if next year is going to be his last year. If he's still gonna go on. We don't know. I think it's the last year of his contract but you know, maybe he wants to keep going. So. We'll see. We'll see. There's plenty of room on the calendar for, for both of them or for him and Roglich and Lipowitz. You know in certain races it's, you know, I, I don't think, I don't think Remco and Primos would probably race a lot together but I mean Lipowitz and Primos can race together or Lipovic and Remco can race together. And then let's not forget, you know, they still have a guy like Jay Hindley, who's also a Grand Tour winner and ground tour podium in other Tours of Italy. Tour of Italy. So, you know, we'll see, we'll see. But I think it's, it's the right move, in my opinion. It's the right move, I think, for, for Remco. You know, there were, there were talks about, you know, him also going to ineos. I don't know how much Specialized has played a role in his decision, but I think it's a new start for him and it's the environment he needed.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, I think he had to stay with Specialized. I mean, just like my son, I dropped him off at school this morning and in the bike parking lot there was a Specialized. And he goes, it's Remco's bike. It's breaking through. The kids are loving Remco. On Specialized, I and Lipowitz, I guess my only concern is Lipowitz and I will move on from this. That my concern about signing one of the best riders in the sport I went through. So his first two years, if you count like his first year as the first year as a pro, he did a stage race or a Grand Tour. So 2024. So 2024, 2025, potentially one of the best starts to a GC career we've ever seen. Like seventh at the Vuelta, his first grand or his first Grand Tour finish, third at the Tour de France. I would say almost even more impressed than that is his one week racing. Like he breaks out third at Roman D in 2024, second at Parry, Nice in 2025. That's usually the year you kind of struggle to repeat your breakout season. Fourth at Bass country, third at the Dofine, like, that's pretty good consistency. And the only thing I would hate to see is like he gets shuffled out of the Tour team, you know, and.

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, no, no, no. There's no way. No. I mean, I don't think so. But, but I think for a guy like Lipovic, it's probably also not bad to have somebody else there, you know, I mean, it's not like Red Bull. I mean, with, with, with Lipovitz and even with Remco, if you're talking about the two or other, other state races is different. If you talk about Giro and Vuelta, those guys would be favorites, right? But if you're not the favorite, if you're not the favorite, and as long as today and Jonas keep Doing the Tour de France, none of the other teams, including Red Bull, will be the favorite. So that also means that you don't have to have a team that is dedicated to one rider, because you never have to carry the weight of the race at any. At any, any point. So you can, you can have two leaders. That's not a problem. It's up to the leader. I mean, if you have two guys with. With. With each of one, and. And then it's up to them to follow the best guys. Right. Whenever it's man against man. So I don't. I don't see it as a. A bad. A bad thing. On the contrary, I think it takes pressure off Lipowitz, which. Which I think he needs because, you know, we know how German media is, you know, now Lipovitz is the next John Ulrich, I would say, for the. For the German media, and that that's a heavy. A heavy weight to carry. So to take the pressure off Florida Lipovic, I think the, The. The arrival of Remco is an advantage.

[Spencer Martin]

And at the same time, then Primos is chasing wins at the Giro and Volta, presumably. You think so?

[Johan Berniel]

I think that's what he should do.

[Spencer Martin]

I think so, too.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's probably also what he wants to do. I mean, he's already accepted the fact that, you know, there's nothing to do against those two guys. And whenever Primos is at the Giro or in the Vuelta and he's healthy, he's difficult to beat, or he was. I mean, let's not forget, you know, he's. Oh, he's getting. Every year, he's getting year older.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. You do wonder, though, like, man, if he's healthy at that. At that zero this year, he probably wins it. You know, there's still a lane.

[Johan Berniel]

We will never know.

[Spencer Martin]

We'll never know. That's the beauty of being a Primos fan. You can say, well, he would have won. He would have won the Tour this year had he not crashed to the zero. It was just off. But before we go to break, just my last question for you, but the suits in Salzburg at Red Bull, like, what defines, what makes them feel good about this? Because this is pretty big. It's pretty expensive, pretty big move they're making. Like, what do you think they want from this?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, obviously they want results, but also, I think, you know, one of the things that you need to have in mind is as a team, you know, if you get the only rider that was basically possible to get at this point of that kind of Quality was Remco. If you have a leader, a strong. And we know that Remco is, you know, he has results, but he's also a strong leader. Personally, personality wise, it also attracts other riders. You know, if you have a strong leader, it makes the team more attractive for other riders. And I think that's what they are also chasing. You know, that, that Rem. That Red Bull is one of the teams where riders actually want to go. And if a rider like Remco wants to go there, I think that says quite a bit about the structure and the organization.

[Spencer Martin]

He's also a huge, huge star with people under the age of 30. Like I was, I was talking to our old producer Colton about it and like everyone under 30, it's like Rimco is their favorite writer. I don't fully like, fully get it, but it's good for the Red Bull brand. Probably. Like he, he's a Red Bull type of rider.

[Johan Berniel]

So yeah, you know, he's a personality. He's. He's also very. I mean, he doesn't leave anybody indifferent off the bike.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Which is important.

[Spencer Martin]

I think, you know, there's someone. I think that's very good that we both feel that leaves us indifferent. I, I don't want to call him out by saying his name.

[Johan Berniel]

I'm going to say it. That you're thinking about Jonas.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I just can't, I can't get. I know about it.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, listen, it's, it's. That's for a brand. It's, it's not only about results. I mean, Jonas obviously a great bike rider, but. Yeah, I mean, other than that, it's, you know, the interviews are very, very gray. I would say, you know, they're not very exciting and kind of always the same thing. It goes with the personality. That's, that's how Jonas is. You can't change that. You can't fake that one way or another. But, but yeah, I mean, it's something obviously that you have to take into account if, if you're a team and you hire a star rider is. It's not just the results on the bike, but it's also the personality of the bike. And, and Remco is an interesting personality for any sponsor.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, very. I'm, I'm often thinking about Remco having a pole in a way. I'm not thinking about Jonas Finnegaard. And also, I guess if you're GM of Red Bull, the team, you go to Red Bull corporate and they say we're the best. Not mixed drinks we're the best, like energy drink company in the world. We want the best cyclist. Who's the best cyclist? You say Tad, if a gotcha. He's not available. Okay, who's second best? You're like Jonas and he's not going anywhere. It's like, all right, so who's third? It's like, well, who, who are you going to get? Like, Remco is kind of the obvious choice. So, yeah, they might not have had a choice. Really, like you just pick him because he's the best rider that's available.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I would say, I would say even like image wise. And I'm, I'm a huge Primos fan, but image wise, Remco runs circles around Primos in terms of the. The image for a brand.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. Even at Primos is pretty interesting. I think he's pretty interesting, but he is a very low key type of humor. He has. That's not maybe the crowd favorite, but let's take a quick break. When we get back, I want to ask you about Dylan Groenvag going to a YouTube team or what used to be a YouTube team. Everyone, this episode is brought to you by Cook Unity. Eating healthy is crucial for your energy and health. We all know that. But it doesn't have to be boring. That's what I love about Cook Unity. Who gives you delivers to your door? Never frozen fresh meals that are ready within minutes and they have incredible fresh flavors for every diet including ketone and gluten. Keto. Sorry and gluten free. And crafted by award winning chefs using local seasonal ingredients high in protein, fiber and healthy fats. I've been using Cook Unity meals for almost a year now and they have changed my life. Especially when my wife is out of town and I'm responsible for cooking, cleaning, getting the kids to and from school. All on top of my newsletter and this podcast. It can be a lot.

[Johan Berniel]

The.

[Spencer Martin]

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[Johan Berniel]

I mean it's. We. We don't know. But I knew he was. I knew at. At Jayco he was making more than a million. It's probably not going to be the same. It's not going to be far off. A million euros. I think it's. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a big, big amount for a rider who hasn't won that much Lately, but just. It's still there, you know, I mean the possibility is still there. Grune Wiggin is always a sprinter. I mean I, I had forgotten about this, but during this Tour I got reminded that last year he actually won a stage at the Tour.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I was just going to ask you, when do you think the last time he won a Tour stage was? Not that long.

[Johan Berniel]

He won a stage at the Tour last year. So, you know, and plus he's Dutch, so. So yeah, I think it's, it's an.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting move in the. Just for, just for people that don't know. The Tetima Rockets, it's a team that is founded by a guy named Bas Tetama. Correct.

[Johan Berniel]

Former racist ex professional rider. He was on BMC then he started. I mean he started the YouTube channel and that's actually how he started the team with two of his friends. It's quite impressive, Spencer. I mean if you think about initially when they started, I said what are these guys thinking? Right? But man, it's become, I mean, in their first year already. Last year was their first year, I think they were already up there this year they are everywhere in, in many races they are in front and they have great results. They've become from a Dutch team, they've become a French team. And I think that's with a purpose. Yeah, because their goal is to get in the Tour. I think there's still quite a bit off, but. But yeah, I mean, hats off to these guys to, to have set up what, what they've, you know, it came out of nowhere. And in year two, they're already a force to be counted with.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, I love the idea of just changing your affiliation to France. Like that's a genius idea because it probably does increase your chances of getting invited to the Tour quite a bit. Well, I think it's going to start.

[Johan Berniel]

With being invited to some ASO races in France for Paris, Nice Padirubais. You know, I don't know any, any.

[Spencer Martin]

Other races that they're Gronnevig and they can win. They're not just there like filling out the numbers. Like they could win a pair in each stage. My big question is I, I kind of understand the team is. I love, I love the idea. Like they have very catchy jerseys. Everything they do is. The design is amazing. The story is good. They're kind of funding the team through the YouTube channel. I guess they have a few sponsors. Like their bike sponsor probably kicks in, Unibet kicks in. But how, how can they afford this? Like a Million years a year.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know. Must come from somewhere. I mean, I don't know who pays for it. They're changing bike sponsor by the way. They're on Cannondale now. They're not going to be on Cannondale next year. They're changing to a. A German brand, Rose Rose Bikes. R O S E. I think it's like an Internet brand. They're not bad. I mean they're okay, they're. They're fine bikes.

[Spencer Martin]

And it would, it would. You would think that a direct to consumer brand like that, that's unknown, probably paying quite a bit of money because that's the only way they have to get people to know about their bikes.

[Johan Berniel]

Probably. Probably, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Just other odds and ends that we didn't really get to talk about during the Tour Inter Marche wante merging with Lotto for next year. This is official, I guess like the documents have been filed with the UCI and then the big star in that Binyam Girmai unclear or in your words, clear that he's not coming back to the team. The combined team. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, what I know about this is that nobody saw this coming and the news got out during the Tour. I know that writers and staff have. They knew this through the media during the Tour de France. So that's. That's not great. You know, if there's a merger, obviously there's. There's going to be people who cannot stay. Right. Riders and staff and so I don't know the ins and outs. From what I could gather it's. The team remains under the control of Lotto, the national lottery. The bikes will remain Orbea. Inter Marche will probably come in as his co sponsor. I don't know what the level of sponsoring will be and that the CEO will be a new CEO and it will be the actual CEO of the team intermarshe. His name is Jean Francois Bourlard. So obviously other people will have to move there. It's never great. Listen, a merger is never great. A merger, I don't know if you can call this a merger. I think it's an acquisition. Yeah. Because. Because if Lotto remains in control company wise or the paying agent remains Lotto. I don't know. I don't understand. I don't know if it's a really great thing from what I did understand was that Intermarshe or the company of Pular had some issues, is not going to stay unless something changes. But I've heard that the bonuses of last year's Tour de France green jersey each Stage wins have not been paid. You know, it's. Bonuses is always a risky thing. You know, I mean if you, if you, if you have a budget and then you sign a writer and all of a sudden a writer outperforms. I mean, nobody would have thought that Binyamin Ghi Mai would have one three stages in the Tour. And the green jersey and you know, if you sign that contract and, and Girmai has a great agent, Alex Carrera. And so it's easy to say, okay, you know, so much for a stage win, so much bonus for, for the green jersey. And then as a managing guy, you know, he's never going to do that until he does. And then. Yeah. And, and so I, I'm not, I'm absolutely not a fan of this merger. It can leave a lot of people without a job, writers and staff and I don't think it's the best combination either.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, what it sounds like is Girmaj.

[Johan Berniel]

Is not going to stay. I mean, and rather like has obviously offers. Plus, plus that, you know, the, the, the writers of intermarshe who still have a contract are free to leave because the paying agent changes.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Now if they don't want to leave, then I think they have a problem because there's too many riders. There's going to be too many riders. I mean I did this when we merged Radio Shack and Leopard and when we put the two teams together, we had 42 riders with a contract. So we had to find a solution for 12 of those riders and the only solution was to pay out the contracts. So we paid out the contract and they went to other teams, all retired. That's not a great situation, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

No.

[Johan Berniel]

And probably too much staff too. I would assume with the staff it's the same. So, so yeah, I, I don't, I don't think it's a great thing.

[Spencer Martin]

I'm just looking at it now they have 38 riders under contract. Okay. Two teams for next year.

[Johan Berniel]

Eight of those does does get my still have a contract.

[Spencer Martin]

You're my does. And he does. So he's not included. So 37.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean the guys who. There's probably, I mean for Girmai it's, it's not bad because he, he can leave for a bigger contract.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Somewhere else. Even after having won the green jersey. Because I think he signed a multi year deal before the green jersey and, and he, you know, that was kind of, you know, made up with his bonuses. But if you don't get the bonuses then, then yeah, I'll tell you what.

[Spencer Martin]

There'S some good writers on this that's going to be left out. If I was running a team that had room on my roster, I would, I would be looking to scoop some of these guys up. There are some good writers on both these teams. What it sounds like to me, or just reading between the lines, I mean I think you hit it. It's not really a merger. It's Lotto needed a second sponsor. Lotto couldn't find a second sponsor. Inter Marche Wanty, probably in quite a bit of financial trouble, overextended themselves, was going to fold. This is like just Lotto being creative thinking, oh well you can just kind of acquire this team and then we get their sponsors and now we have our second sponsor. We have other.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's not picked through the writers. It's not going to be enough. I, I, I don't think it's a great move.

[Spencer Martin]

Spencer, what do you think their combined budget will be like? What's the Lotto budget next year now?

[Johan Berniel]

I think lotto's now 15 million or something. They were looking for a co sponsor. Even with the merger I don't think it will exceed 20 million.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh man. So they'll get Intermarshe staying correct? Yeah, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Or, or whatever other brand Intermarshe owns.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. But you don't obviously don't get their bike sponsor. You can only have one bike sponsor. So that's already baked into the 15 million and then so it's whatever Inter Marche is paying for title sponsorship. Maybe a few other minor ones. Yeah, I guess, I guess that kind of makes sense. Still pretty low budget. Yeah, yeah. And then where does Binium go, you think?

[Johan Berniel]

Astana probably.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh man. Well that is kind of, that's interesting.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, you don't really, if you're Benny and your mind, you don't really want to go somewhere with the GC leader because that hurts your ability to go for Green Hunt Hunt stages. So maybe Astana does make sense. Astana. We'll, we'll talk about that. Sorry xds. Yeah, but that is quite the turnaround. We need to talk about that later and then obviously we'll talk about this later in the show. These two teams coming together leaves of now free spot for basically now the, the 19th place team in the combined aggregate three year rolling rankings for World Tour points. UCI points is now included in the World Tour because two World Tour teams are merging. So an extra team will get a World Tour spot. Johan, before we talk about that though, we had got to Talk about trans. Some transfers, some interesting things going on. Ineos had some riders lined up, like Kevin Vaklan to bring on. Sounds like he's still coming. But the word we're receiving is Dave Brailsford has sat down, looked at the contracts and said, what the heck's going on? I don't want some of these riders. Some of these riders are too expensive. We're not going to pay them that. And it's kind of putting a freeze on the hirings that they thought they had made. What exactly is this? And, like, how does this work? Like, if Sam Wellsford signed a deal or did he sign, like an intent to sign a deal? And then that can be. I think Felipe Zana is the one that, yeah, was going to get paid a lot of money. And then Ineo said maybe not. And then now he has to, like, beg Jayco to take him back. But how does that deal get canceled if it's already been signed?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, I'm gonna guess it's not signed. It's probably just a letter of intent. And, you know, it's the same. You know, you don't want to go where you're not wanted or invited. You know, you never go to a party if you're not invited.

[Spencer Martin]

Like, call them out to be like, I'm coming, whether you want me to.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So, I mean, I mean, it all depends what has been signed. You know, it probably gives. Gives Zana and his agents some leverage to say, okay, you know, we'll not insist, but, hey, we need at least a compensation. Right? That's always a possibility. And so, I don't know. I mean, I think what Brailstreet is doing is probably waiting to see how the market is and trying to see if there's one star rider, same like Remco. I mean, there was rumors that he was going to go to ineos. Remco didn't work out. Maybe there's somebody else who. Who they can try to get from another team. Somebody who wants to leave the team. I don't know. I mean, just to name one. One, right. I mean, for example, Juan I uso probably not going to. I'm not saying that's going to be the case. But, you know, if Juan I uso looks at his future and Pogacha is there, I mean, he's not going to have any chance at the Tour. And it's probably not going to race the Tour or any other races where Bogacha races. So then you have to ask yourself, well, do I really want to stay here? Do I want to move? Is there room to negotiate? I mean it never hurts to talk and Brailford is pretty good at that, at negotiating. So I think he just wants to keep the options open until, until he's sure he cannot get another big name and then there's still time to, you know, reopen the, the agreement of Filippo Zana. I mean Zana, he's a good writer, but it's not like there's teams lining up to sign him, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't know, I feel like that's a bit of a miss someone like Zana. He is so talented.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And you're like, how often do talents like that, it's like Kevin Vauclan, like big talent. Like to me a rider like that that you can nurture is, is the edge in modern cycling. Like you have to find like you have to have someone with the ceiling that's there or else they're just not going to be good enough. Zana does have that ceiling. I, I, I think it's a mistake. But, but man, who, who is available at this point, off the top of my head, the only people I can think of would be Juan and these people aren't even really available. Juan USO Zwalameheda, Primus Raglic, like wonder the rider would be big enough for them to take a swing at.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean Primos.

[Spencer Martin]

Primos, yeah. That would be the most inos thing to do though. You sign like a 36 year old primus Rogue for a ton of money and then I mean he's still, he's.

[Johan Berniel]

Still going to win races. You know, he's still going to win races. I'm not sure if, if Red Bull would be really be, you know, hard in negotiating the exit of Primos. I'm not, I mean I would keep him. He's, listen, he's a valuable writer. He's, you know, he's one of the greatest of the last decade, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I guess there's, there's also Oscar Onley would be the other one that.

[Johan Berniel]

Maybe he's still, he only still on.

[Spencer Martin]

He still has a contract.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, well listen, I mean that's not a bad one because let's not forget, you know, that that team is not shy of no trading in, trading in riders with their better deal.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So they're very smart at, very smart at sign selling riders at the top of their value. It's kind of how they fund the team. So maybe that's what's cooking here. But it does this is not the first time it's happened. This happened two years ago where Brailsford was not really involved with the team. Rod Ellingworth made deals. Brailsford comes in and says, what the heck have you done? And then pull deals off the table. Like that's why it took Tobias Foss so long to come on board because then they had to renegotiate the deal.

[Johan Berniel]

Carlos Verona. Carlos Verona had a deal. Then finally he. He didn't get the deal and went.

[Spencer Martin]

To Trek and wanted. Won the zero stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's. I. I don't know. It's. David Brailsford perhaps knows what he's doing.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I think, I think what Brailford has been doing, he's been, you know, taking stock of what the situation was during, during the Tour and then finally said, okay, we need to do this.

[Spencer Martin]

We need to do this.

[Johan Berniel]

Let's just wait. I mean, budget wise, I think they're going to be fine. Obviously it's not going to increase because whatever comes extra will probably be recuperated by Radcliffe, but they have Total Energies on board now. It's still unclear to me how it's possible to have two teams.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, it's.

[Johan Berniel]

It's ineo's Total Energies and then you have Total Energies. The French team will next year still have it.

[Spencer Martin]

I guess like an equipment sponsor would be the obvious counter to that.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's. Equipment sponsors is different, but they're not in the name.

[Spencer Martin]

Does Trek. Trek doesn't have another World Tour team, right? No, no, no. Yeah. It would be like if little Trek then was racing against like Trek Segafredo and those were two.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, you know, Trek could potentially also sponsor another team with bikes, but they would not be in the name.

[Spencer Martin]

No, no, it's. It's really strange to be. It's actually f. One kind of has a situation like this. But so it is like. So if you're doubting Dave Railsford, like maybe I am, but just.

[Johan Berniel]

I think, I think he knows what he's doing.

[Spencer Martin]

But look at. It's actually interesting. So they won six World Tour races throughout the first part of the year. In, in the last three weeks alone, they've won four. So they are turning things around like at least from a wins perspective. And they have riders like Ben Turner. How. How long has that guy been good and not winning big races and then he suddenly wins a race at Tour Poland. Or Victor Langelotti, who I was confused about that signing guy wins a World Tour race.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, that was impressive, that stage win.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it was. And the. The reason I think the winning is important and maybe I'm wrong here, but it's. I think the problem with INEOS partly is it's like very, very good riders, but, like, no finishers. And then you kind of get in a malaise where no one ever wins. But they're pretty good. But if you don't have, like, that tip of the spear, I feel like the mentality of a team is just. It's not like the winning mentality. I know it sounds like stupid and basic, but if you just have, like, if someone is crossing the finish line first, I think that does kind of kick the team into gear and, you know, maybe that. Maybe that is like, what. What they're turning into. Or they have, like, Ben Turner winning and then it would be interesting if they could get Oscar Onley as a GC writer. That. That's not. And maybe even Juana you. So maybe. Maybe Brailsford is big things cooking and that's why these.

[Johan Berniel]

These are being paused. He's definitely thinking of something.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I would. I'd be going for one of you. So I'm actually quite excited for this welta. We'll talk about it next week. But this is a big, big vault for Juana you so. And also for Schwalameda. But before we go to our next AD break, another team that I'm a little confused by. Decathlon AG2R. Soon to be, I guess, Decathlon. Who's the. It's like, who's the sponsor coming on next year? It's like luxury brand, but they're making.

[Johan Berniel]

A lot at some point. L'.

[Spencer Martin]

Oreal.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't think. I don't think it's l'. Oreal. I think it's something else. I'm not sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Making a lot of noise about being the next super team of the sport. They're. They're sending out a lot of good riders. Who. Who are they bringing in to be their like and who's left to bring in at this stage of the season?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, I mean, they signed Olaf Coy, they've signed Tish Benot, they have signed. I don't remember who else they have signed. They've signed someone else. So, I mean, the Benotta and Koyor, obviously, two good writers coming from Visma. But it's clear that Decathlon wants a change. They want to completely get away from the French, pure French identity. They want to be international. I've heard for Example that all the meetings. It's an obligation. All the meetings are in English.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting. And I heard that's why they signed or not signed. They hired Luke Rowe.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, they look row. Then they have. They have this other Australian. They have another Australian DS forgot his name now. Luke Roberts. Is he there? Luke Roberts?

[Spencer Martin]

I think so.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think so. So this is a different. It's a different philosophy. So decathlon is pushing big, both with the team, with a lot of other sports. And for example, I mean over here, obviously football is soccer, football is big. You know, there's a, there's a. There's a famous French football player, Griezmann. Andre Griezmann is a famous football player and he plays with decathlon gear, which would have been unthinkable a few years ago. So it's clear that decathlon is pushing really, really hard to be a big player in elite sports. And yeah, I can see them. I can see them definitely be one of the top teams in the. In the next few years.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting. I mean I guess they have in their mind they have the star inside the house already with Paul Seychas sex sauce. Yeah, I. Yeah, yeah. I was riding in France last week and I was shocked at the amount of. Just on the road like leftover from the dofine how, how much Paul Seychelles paraphernalia. There was like talk about a star in the making. And also if you think you can ride as fast as the pros, just as a little, little reference point here, I did the coat dudamancy which was. It's been featured what, a few times recently. The time trial in the 2023 Tour where Vinegard one the Doan this year where Pagat just destroyed everybody. It probably will feature in the 2027 World Championships.

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, for sure, for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. P did it in about six minutes. 6:14. So you think, oh, what am I going to be, eight minutes? Something like that? Like 14 minutes. So over twice as. Twice as slow. But here's like the sobering thing to give you an idea of the power these guys are putting out and the like the lethal combination of weight and power. I would have to do something like 750 watts to go the same speed for six minutes.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think you can do that, Spencer.

[Spencer Martin]

I probably can't do that. So I'm gonna have to lose some weight or get stronger. But you know, Picacho is light. He's not that though, you know, he's like what, 63, 64.

[Johan Berniel]

Still, still light. It's light. It's light.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean he's putting out a lot of power on those efforts, like a lot. It's actually really crazy when you, when you do that and you realize the power normal sized person would have to do to, to be as fast as them. But let's take one more ad break and then I. Let's talk about this relegation. The, the relegation battle shifted because there's an extra spot now. But it is actually quite interesting. Everyone, this episode is brought to you by Manu Kora Honey. Are you looking for something simple and delicious to add to your wellness routine? Well, well, look no further because Manu Kora is right in front of you. And I walked out this morning. This one's near and dear in my heart. Because I walked out, I had three brand new jars of Manukora shipped to me from the farm in New Zealand where it's harvested. I throw this honey into everything. Tea, breakfast bowls, protein shakes, even right off the spoon, which I do right when I come down to watch these pre volta races. And I'm feeling better than ever, not getting sick, which I'm shocked by due to my recent travel. But what really sets Manukore apart is what's inside. It's packed with powerful nutrients that support immunity and gut health. Probably why I'm not getting sick. Thanks to the bioactive rich nectar in the be the bees collect from the Manuka tea tree in New Zealand. It even contains a unique antibacterial compound called mgo. And every harvest is third party tested. So you know exactly what you're getting going off book here a little bit. It's just a great company, comes in a great package. You feel good for buying it made. It's a good product made by good people sent in a good package. I can't give it a bigger endorsement than that. And if you want to try it, you're in luck because it's easier than ever to try. Manukura honey. Head to manukora.com the move to save up to 30 to save 31% plus $25 with the free gifts with the starter kit which comes with an MGO850 plus Manuka honey jar, five honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon and a guide book. That's manukora.com the move to save 31% plus $25 with the free gifts today. Hit get that. Get the link in the show notes if you didn't write it down. All right, back to the show. So Johan, we are back. The relegation battle. We thought I, I do have to make an apology to Astana. I, I think I said on this show like just a few months ago it was not possible for them.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. To be. I thought the same at the beginning of the season. I definitely thought the same. That was not going to be possible. Man. They're in like safety.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just in cruising. Not even thinking about it. A team that probably thought they were safe. I mean I don't know how much we want to get into these. It can start to get abstract at a certain point. But the last team in assuming Inter Marche and Lotto are merging is cofitis. They have 20 over the last three years. They have 23,923 points. Behind them is UNOX. 23,470 points which is really impressive when you consider how few points Unox was scoring the last two years. Like this year they have crushed it like their 11th overall with almost 8,000 points. Kofidius has been terrible. 20th overall with 5,500 points essentially. But really what this means is there's what a Delta now of 453 points. Unox is winning like a lot. Like they, like they won what yesterday at the Tour Denmark. They probably have more wins. What this probably could come down to is the Tour of Guangxi. I don't even know if Unox is invited to that, but it's kind of an interesting thing to think about. But if they win like two or three more races they could overtake Kofitis and Kofit is the problem is they're not scoring at all like they, they were nowhere at the Tour. They've been nowhere since the Tour ended like they could. Now a team that I thought was safe, they probably thought they were safe could. Could realistically get relegated.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, obviously they didn't. They didn't. They were not great on the transfer market either. You know they signed a lot of expensive riders for. Yeah, I mean I, I've heard a few. A few. I mean if, if the information I got is true, it's crazy. Some, some riders went there like for their retirement fund, you know, but, but Yeah, I mean 450 points, man. I mean, you know X. And their Unox is pretty good at also winning one day races and there's a bunch still to come of those races.

[Spencer Martin]

A lot like the whole Italian campaign.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I would not, I mean if I'm coffee this I would not feel safe at all. Yeah, I mean I think they're world tour ready, you know. They are definitely a great team, great sponsor with A big potential. It's going to be interesting to follow that battle. Where is Tudor, by the way?

[Spencer Martin]

The second part of this actually is quite interesting. Tudor is not going to make it because they were haven't been a team long enough. They are in 23rd in the aggregate rankings. Quite a bit of way down. But where this gets interesting is, you know, the top three pro teams, I guess the second division teams qualify for all the races.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Right now the top one is Unox. So this would be for next year. These are all invited to every race, essentially Unoxic. Tudor is Israel's third, second, but they will be World Tours, so they're out. Tudor then is effectively the second team. So they're now going to be invited to everything. And Q 36.5 is third. So I think I even said on the show a few months ago, I was like, I don't get why Tom Pickax going there. Because they're not going to be in all the Tour.

[Johan Berniel]

In all the. In all the. In all the big races.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, in the biggest.

[Johan Berniel]

But where does that put Coffee? This then if they're out, Cofitis is. So if, you know, X makes it, where does it put Cofitis?

[Spencer Martin]

Okay, no, this is more complex than I thought because now Cofitis is right above Q 36.5. So now these two teams, not only is Cofitus battling UNOX, they're battling Q 36.5 because if they get relegated, they're no longer the third team who. Because, well, right now they would be. But if they don't perform in Q36.5 does well.

[Johan Berniel]

What's the difference between Q36.5 and Cofitis?

[Spencer Martin]

It's. It's kind of a lot. It's 700 points currently. But this takes us into our last topic of the day, Johan. Tom Pidcock not doing the World Mountain Bike Championships because he's going to the Volta Espana to chase the top 10. I saw this news. I thought this doesn't make any sense. Why, why do they care about that? But do you know What? The top 10 at the vault, it comes with a lot of points. How many? So, well here, let's just look at. It's a lot. Like that could be enough right there to make up the delta.

[Johan Berniel]

Let's just look at. That's also assuming that Coffee. This wouldn't be in the top 10 in the Vuelta, which they probably won't be.

[Spencer Martin]

Probably. It's a safe assumption to make, actually. Like, let's just say David Godu last year scores 415 UCI points for sixth place, the VA.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

And then Pitcock, I'd assume they're imagining he could win at least a stage, if not more.

[Johan Berniel]

Right? Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So do you think that's why.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, obviously it really doesn't matter, Spencer, because. Well, it does matter. It does matter if you know X. But if you know X makes it to the World Tour, then Coffee, this and 2 door and Q 36.5 or in any way. Right.

[Spencer Martin]

It would be.

[Johan Berniel]

If you know X makes it, then it's still the three teams. It would still be Cofitis and. And two Door.

[Spencer Martin]

Even if they were somehow overtaken and not third, they would still get invited to the Tour. Right. Wild card French team. Yeah. So it still would be a big blow for them. But yeah, you're right, they would still be the third pro team. So it kind of doesn't matter at all. But it's more like a security after next year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. It's kind of interesting though to think about it. I'm just more shocked at. Cofitus is like fall. Like they've. They've obviously struggled in years past, but this is like they are really struggling. And then it kind of doesn't. It kind of makes sense when you talk about the contracts you're hearing and the type of writing riders they're targeting.

[Johan Berniel]

I'll. I'll tell you, one of the contracts offline, it's crazy is this.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean the, the relegation system gets criticized a lot, but in my mind, like one thing that it could be good to maybe deincentivize is a team like Cofitis that just sits comfortably in this spot and then doesn't make really smart sporting decisions to get better. And then, yeah, it's kind of blocking teams like the Tatama Rockets from rising up because they're just chewing up a spot. Even if they're not, I don't want to say taking it seriously, but they're just comfortable where they are. They are not like striving for more. So I do kind of wonder sometimes if it holds back more ambitious, cutting edge teams. So that I guess that would be the reason for.

[Johan Berniel]

I think also one, one of the reasons why Pitcock goes to the, to the Vuelta is in my opinion it's also a requirement for the invitation. You know, ASO. Yeah, the Vuelta ASO invited Q36.5 to the race, but it was dependent on Pitcock being present. Same went with the Giro, by the way. You know, they were at the Giro. Pitcock was at the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Does he win World Championships mountain bike? If he shows up, probably. Right.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, it depends on the course. If it's, if there's a lot of climbing, there's not many people who can beat him. If it's, if it's a lot of climbing, not even Mathieu beats him, I think, in mountain biking. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's gonna be. He's not gonna go now and van der Poel will go. So Van der Poel will try to be World Champion mountain bike. That's the one that he's missing.

[Spencer Martin]

Has Tom Pickock won a World Championship mountain?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He won in, he won in, in Scotland three years ago.

[Spencer Martin]

Did he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. 20, 23. So, yeah, there's kind of nothing left for him. He has two Olympic Championships, a World Championships, European Championships, eight World Cups. It's like.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, he just won the European Championships.

[Spencer Martin]

By the way, this year for the second time. Yeah, yeah. Do you think Van der Poel wins this? Not Mic. World Championships.

[Johan Berniel]

Where is it?

[Spencer Martin]

That would be. That would have been a good question. Good thing to look up before I did the show.

[Johan Berniel]

Listen, I think, I think he does. I think he does because, I mean, the difference in engines is just amazing. If he, if he doesn't win, it's because he's going to have some kind of mishap, which, you know, has been proven to be the case, you know, when, whenever he has raced. Now lately he's had some issues technically, but now he has more time to prepare and yeah, it's in valet, Switzerland.

[Spencer Martin]

But I don't know what the course is.

[Johan Berniel]

It's obviously going to be hard.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, these courses are really, they're all really hard, like.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, so. So, yeah, I'm not sure. But anyway, listen, with the Tour, I mean, in the Tour, he was, he was climbing amazingly also for his, you know, for his qualities. He takes that form into the rest of the season.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, this is true. I mean, yeah, it's just the engine level. I'm quite, I'm quite. It happens during the Vuelta, which is kind of disappointing, but I'm quite, quite excited for that World Championships, actually. But. Anything else you want to say, Johan, before we get going?

[Johan Berniel]

I think we've covered mostly everything. We haven't talked about any races that have been going on, but I think.

[Spencer Martin]

We'Ll do our in depth deep dive of stage three of the. The time trial at the Tour of Denmark next week on Monday. Each pacing strategy for each rider. But the racing's actually been pretty good. I don't want to make it sound like I'm laughing at the racing. I've, like, been.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, I've been impressed with Corbin Strong, by the way. Corbin Strong, he won. He won the race in Belgium there, then in Wallonia, and. And he just won the Arctic race. I mean, that was an amazing performance. He. He was the only guy to. To be able to follow Pitcock on the hardest climb.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Berniel]

And then defended it really well on the last stage. So, yeah, that guy's on some really good form. Corbin Strong.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, really good rider. I mean, that was such a hard finish to stay with. Like, I'm sure Pitcock was expecting to win the overall. Yeah, you'd imagine. Yeah. So to beat a writer of that caliber in a GC, not easy at all. How old is Corbin Strong? 25 years old. A lot of good riders on that team, actually. Yeah, it is real. All right, Johan, well, have a good week and we'll be back next week to preview the Volta Espana.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

It's going to be quite. Quite a good battle. Quite an interesting race. But we will talk later.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, thanks, Spencer.

[Spencer Martin]

Bye.

[Ryan]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.