George Hincapie (6:45)

I mean, I meant I texted all the whole group yesterday how exciting I thought the stage was. And I know there's a big argument on whether or not we should be including gravel and Grand Tour races. But for me, you know, cycling is all about promoting brands. Brands, cycling brands, cycling Groupos, tires. They're always evolving. Equipment's always evolving. They want to sell more of their equipment. And what, what do you need to do to make that happen is test the equipment on the most challenging roads you can test them on. So all these guys, I mean, that's. We've all ridden these gravel roads in Tuscany. They're super slick, super steep, very unpredictable. You never know. You can be taking a left turn and all of a sudden you're hitting, like, bumps that feel like speed bumps, so to speak, on gravel, it's just as technical as it get. And for me, I'm a fan of it. It requires all kinds of different skills in cycling and the best of the best equipment. So I, I think on a personal level, makes it more exciting and also shows who's got the best equipment.

Johan Bruyneel (7:46)

Yeah, I. I agree with everything you say, George.

Spencer Martin (7:49)

It's.

Johan Bruyneel (7:51)

It's nice. It's great for the fans. It's great for. To watch it on tv. And if you want cycling, professional cycling to be a show and a circus, then I agree that these kind of stages have their place. If you want to test the equipment and promote the equipment, then you have Strad Bianca, you have Parido Bay, you have other special races dedicated to those kind of surfaces. My point, and I said it on social media this morning, and I expect that to get killed over it. And, and I did get killed over it, but my point is different. I can see this, the value of, Of a stage like this, and, you know, it is super exciting. As a fan, I like to. I like to watch it. If I, If I put myself in the place of team manager, DS and cyclist, professional cyclist and staff member of teams and sponsor of a team that invests a lot of money in Grand Tour winners, having a leader for the gc, try to win the Giro or the Tour or the Vuelta, whatever, then the perspective changes because we are talking about professional road cycling, right? As far as I know, that's on roads. On roads in 2025 is a great race that specifically everybody who goes there knows they're going to ride on gravel, is a great race with everybody who knows there they're going to ride on cobbles. That's for specialists. My point is that yesterday, for example, we saw one of the big favorites potentially losing the Giro. Not. Not lost yet, but. And it's part of it, you know, he can crash on a Downhill, you can get caught in the crosswinds. But I think it just enhances the possibilities of, of, of crashes and mechanicals. And there's nothing you can do as a team or as a writer. Roglich got caught out by. I don't remember who it was. It was a guy from Ineos who crashed first, I think. Then the punctures. It can happen to anybody. I agree and I know that my point of view is not shared by many. And again, I can see the value. It's super entertaining. We saw a great race and it might actually be the deciding stage of the Giro in hindsight. So yeah, I mean, I have my opinion on it, but I can also understand your point of view.

George Hincapie (10:25)

Let me be a little bit of a devil's advocate for a second. You said you're taking the perspective of a fan, a media person now the sponsors perspective. Let's take the perspective of Johan Brunel, director sportive of Lance Armstrong, with Ekamoth Padronas myself backing him for a race like yesterday strada Bianca or 2004 Paris Roubaix sections. What, what's your opinion on that? What was your outlook on that? I think you were a bit more confident in the outcome.

Johan Bruyneel (10:58)

No, I actually had the conversation with Lance about it yesterday because Lance thinks exactly the same like you. I was with him in Germany at the Yon Ulrich Cycling Festival and we, we had a talk in the car about it. Lance thinks the same as you. Yeah, you know, we wouldn't have care. We would be better with. But I see it differently because it was better for us. It turned out to be better. But it could have been a nightmare because you are adding uncontrollable factors. You know, we had a strong team. I remember when 2004, the, the, the. The cobbles were in. Was it 2004? Yeah, I guess so. 2004, you know, you, you and Eki and, and Pavel, you came in first. You know, it was you and Eki and Lance, the first three on the cobble sections. That's not. Doesn't mean yet that it's, it's safe. You know, you can cr. There's gonna be a crash. It can be a puncture. The cars can never get there. Especially it's not the same like in normal, normal road race. So although I knew it was potentially better for us when everything went okay, I was still not a fan because you're never, you never know what's gonna happen and it's just adding the risk factor to, to the race. So. Yeah, I see it differently.

George Hincapie (12:13)

I was damn excited for those stages because it's finally like we can really show, showcase our skills. And of course it's nerve wracking and of course anything can happen like you said, Johan. But I know that having guys like the guys that we have and the team that you built around Lance, we couldn't have been more confident for days like that.

Spencer Martin (12:33)

Did you guys like go on an underwater road one time and everyone crashed?

Johan Bruyneel (12:38)

You see Massage Dubois for example, that's another thing. That's another one. I mean we turned out to be very beneficial. But if I look at it from a little point of view, I think a road like that has no place in a Grand Tour because. And that was even was a lot worse. I mean that was asking for problems because you knew that every few hours it was flooded, it was gonna be slippery. I mean we basically won the first Tour there already. Right. So, but, but from a neutral point of view, I think it's, it's madness.

George Hincapie (13:16)

It's madness. But it's also, there's, there's luck involved, but there's also a ton of skill. As you know, everybody wants to be in front there and only listen.

Johan Bruyneel (13:27)

Yeah. George and I agree, you know, that a Grand Tour winner should be a complete rider who controls all, all the, all the aspects of cycling, including those kind of sections. But anyways, you know, it was a super nice race yesterday. It was spectacular. Great winner. You know, the whole GC got turned up upside down a bit and that's at the end what people are going to remember. Right? But I, for, for example, George, I gave a little, a little suggestion on social media, said, you know, why don't we put out a poll amongst the professional cyclists of today's peloton who are going for results in a Grand Tour and ask their opinion if they're in favor of or against this kind of stage. And I said I'm, I think I can confidently, confidently say that 75% would be against it if they, if they can choice, if they can choose. What do you think?

George Hincapie (14:33)

Yeah, I would say a lot of the guys these days would probably be against it. Yeah. But at the same time, I mean guys like, I mean, we're going to talk about the stage, but guys like Bernal and Wild Ben Art with cyclocross and mountain bike backgrounds. I mean, I know for me, I never raced mountain bike, didn't do much cyclocross, but I knew if it was going to be a wet sort of money, muddy, dirty, carnage type of race, it would Be to my benefit because of all the mountain biking I did in the winter's training. And it's just a different type of skill. So I think a lot of these guys go and going, you know what? A lot can go wrong. But this is going to benefit me in the long run because I'm a much better bike handler, like at the Tom Pickax, for example, than.

Johan Bruyneel (15:17)

Yeah.

George Hincapie (15:17)

Than 90 of the peloton. So.

Johan Bruyneel (15:19)

Yeah. Yeah. But there you. There you have it. Tom Pidcock, for example, arguably the best bike handler in the Peloton, lost out yesterday because of a crash and a mechanical.

George Hincapie (15:29)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (15:29)

You know, so anyways, I think if we would ask a poll Amongst the fans, 100 would say, I want this.

George Hincapie (15:38)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (15:38)

And ultimately, that's what keeps the cycling going. You know, without fans, there's no sport. So I, I can. I can see. I can see all different opinions.

Spencer Martin (15:48)

I'd say it's almost existential. Johan and I know the. The writers don't want to do this. I hate to break it to them that they don't really have a voice. Right. When. When is cycling ever done with? The writers want them want to do. And, like, if they don't have stages like this, people won't pay attention. Like, if it's just no. If the zero, can I. I. I think so. Man, it's so hard to get people's attention nowadays. Like, you look at a lot losing attention. It's like no one wants to sit and watch one of these. You know, think of the jam. Marie leblanc, Tour de France is where they'd have like eight sprint stages in a row. You get to the first mountain stages at stage 14. Like, that couldn't survive in today's landscape. So I think the Giro has to do this to keep. To keep the race interesting. And it was. I mean, it was pretty fascinating. Adam Yates said they didn't really know what was going on. So you had UAE chasing Del Toro, Del Toro riding away from uae, and then Pitcock and Roglic chasing the UAE group. And then you had Vatsk up. Vatsk up at the front riding away from his own teammate, Chicone, who he probably should have been helping. Like, that chaos. It. I think it keeps the sport from becoming like, you know, to PlayStation, as you would say, or, like, too robotic, because it just throws these variables in and it's like, all right, guys, figure this out on the fly. And you have no idea what the heck is going on. So in that respect, it is good. On the other hand, this GC does This GC happen without the variables? Probably not. So I am somewhat sympathetic to. To your point there, where it's like, well, Roguelus probably doesn't lose all that time without the gravel. Del Toro doesn't gain it all. And that's somewhat unfortunate. But it's funny, you look at that meat of the top 10, it's not actually that much. Not that much happened, actually, except Del Toro gaining, Roglic losing store, crashing, which is unfortunate for him. But we are kind of like at an interesting spot with this clustering of the top 10, I think.

Johan Bruyneel (17:44)

I think so. I mean, you know, you have del Toro with 113, and then from second place till tenth place, the two big favorites are you. So. And Roglic are in second and tenth. There's one minute 12 in between them. So you could say, okay, considerable, but definitely not decisive. What we will have to see. Primos now has to act. You know, he needs to be aggressive. And so it's. It makes the race interesting. You know, we see. We see two riders, two Latin American rider in three, but not. Not taking Del Toro into account. We see Carapace and Bernal, who are very skilled at this kind of parkours, who are now in. In fourth and seventh. So, you know, they're in a good place, and we all know how aggressive they can be. So if you look at the GC right now, the top 10, it. It's very promising.

George Hincapie (18:36)

And both those guys that you just mentioned are Grand Tour winners have won the Giro and have that experience. Once you get past that second week and you hit those monster climbs that we all know of the zero, where typically, you know, some of these young guys may have a bad day, and these guys will probably just keep getting better and better. I mean, it's amazing to see Bernal, how far he's come. Rode with him in November for his Gran Fondo, and seeing what Brandon Rivera did for him yesterday, they're essentially best friends. They live right next door to each other in Bogota. They trained together all winter. Imagine, like, leading one of the most iconic stages of the Giro. You know, as buddies like that, I thought that was pretty amazing. Obviously, it didn't work out the way they wanted. They probably could have gotten a bit more help from Del Toro and Ben Aert, but tactically, it didn't make much sense. So they were in an important, unfortunate position in that respect. But still, I mean, they wrote an incredible race. The whole team is riding really well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (19:32)

It's nice to see Bernal. It's not the first time in the two other hard stages, he was already up there. Very close.

George Hincapie (19:39)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (19:39)

And I think he's going to do a great Giro. I think he's definitely a serious, serious candidate for the podium. And now, after what I saw yesterday, man, I wouldn't even. I mean, it would be amazing. I wouldn't even exclude him winning the Giro.

George Hincapie (19:55)

I agree. I mean, he's got that experience. He's getting the confidence back. He's getting to the highest level. He's. He's matching the numbers of the guys. Like Primos, Roglich, I use those. I mean, he hasn't done that in a long time.

Johan Bruyneel (20:09)

Especially also George, I think. I think he. He's getting his confidence back.

George Hincapie (20:15)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (20:15)

You can see, you know, like the day. The day he got third, when Ayusa won, I would say. I would say, okay, wow, great result. You know, he has to be happy he's back. He was pissed.

George Hincapie (20:27)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (20:28)

They didn't win well.

George Hincapie (20:29)

And his team had confidence in him. They were working for him. I mean, he went with like 6, 700 meters to go. Yeah. I mean, we're starting to see the old Bernala come back, creep in. And one thing we haven't mentioned. I don't know if you're saving at the end, but have you seen the. Is this correct that wow, got the K1 yesterday?

Johan Bruyneel (20:46)

No, he didn't. He was. He was three seconds slower than Greg Van Avermat.

George Hincapie (20:55)

My thing. My thing says he's got 119. Greg Van Everman was. Is in fourth at 124 of Anna Poles in second at 122. Oh, wow.

Johan Bruyneel (21:04)

Okay.

Spencer Martin (21:04)

So we should say, though, I mean, that's obviously super impressive. This is.

Johan Bruyneel (21:08)

That's crazy.

Spencer Martin (21:08)

Much shorter than the.

George Hincapie (21:10)

Let's.

Spencer Martin (21:10)

Than the race.

George Hincapie (21:11)

Much shorter. And. But I think the most impressive part was that Del Toro pulled for 20k straight and essentially did all the work. I mean, Van Art just passed him right at the very end. So essentially, we need to give that to Del Toro. Yeah, but she's obviously not even on Strava. Because he's not on this list.

Johan Bruyneel (21:28)

George. It shows you that the level just keeps going up. I mean, crazy. It's crazy how they are. These guys are improving.

George Hincapie (21:35)

Yeah, it's shorter, but it's nine days into a Grand Tour.

Johan Bruyneel (21:37)

Exactly, Exactly.

George Hincapie (21:39)

More tired. But no.

Spencer Martin (21:41)

So here's my question for you guys. I. I do think my hot take is this race will be won by someone who's won a Grand Tour before, probably won this year. To tell you before, that's not really a hot take because most grand Tours are won by riders who have already won a Grand Tour. Eager Bernal looks great. Are we worried that he got absolutely smoked by Isaac del Toro? Like, can this guy hold on? Like, what are we dealing with here?

George Hincapie (22:05)

I'm.

Spencer Martin (22:06)

I think like, he's a better time trial is too.

George Hincapie (22:09)

They, they did. They had to do a lot of work and those, you know, what was it, 60 to 30k to go? Del Toro was just sitting on the wheel. It was just a matter of circumstances tactically how that played out, but he still kind of finished. He didn't even lose that much time to that second group. Once he got caught, it looked like he was dead man walking, but it seemed to be recovered a bit. Yeah, I don't think all is lost by any means or.

Johan Bruyneel (22:32)

But I do think, however, Spencer, I do think that Del Toro is. We need, we need to take him into account. I mean, we don't know how long he's going to last. He may last three weeks. You know, it sometimes happens. You have, I mean, this super, obviously super talent. Right. He won the Tour de l'veneer against Matthew Riccatello in the mountains. So he was a professional at the.

Spencer Martin (22:59)

Time, by the way. Riccatello was and del Toro was not.

Johan Bruyneel (23:02)

Yeah, yeah. You know, he's shown straight away in his first year. You know, he was the real deal. Gets into the Giro now without pressure and has unbelievable legs. I mean, the guy, he's on fire. You know, George, he. Yeah, you would say. He has no chain. He has no chain. This guy. It's like, it's smooth pedaling. He's just flying. If you see how he put World Vanart on the limit on that last stretch in Siena after having pulling the whole time, Crazy Walt was on the verge of getting dropped.

George Hincapie (23:35)

Yep, he was. And a friend of one of my really good friends that races for a Mexican guy from Tijuana that trains with Del Toro in the winter. And he says he does rides a couple days a week from like 4 hour rides, 380 to 400 watts on rolling roads the whole time. Okay. On a climb, not a huge deal, but like up and down where you're basically going 50k an hour for four hours and the guy just hangs on his wheel for those four hours. But I mean, think about that. That is incredibly impressive numbers. Yeah, I see the way he was pulling yesterday.

Johan Bruyneel (24:10)

Yeah. I would not, I would not. I would not be confident if I'm any of those other favorites. The way Del Toro is riding now. And, you know, once a guy like that, with that kind of talent gets in the lead, man, take it away from him, you know, it's not that easy. It's not that easy.

George Hincapie (24:28)

Plus, tomorrow's his longest time trial of his life already.

Johan Bruyneel (24:32)

Okay.

George Hincapie (24:33)

That's what he said. He's never done a time trial that distance.

Spencer Martin (24:35)

Yeah, but not many this long in pro cycling anymore, which is crazy to say because it's 29 kilometers long.

George Hincapie (24:42)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (24:42)

But he'll be good. He'll be. He's. He's not a bad time trialist. He's.

Spencer Martin (24:46)

He's very good time travel.

George Hincapie (24:47)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (24:48)

So he'll be good. He's aerodynamic. I mean, this. He's. He's riding really narrow handlebars also, George.

George Hincapie (24:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (24:59)

And. And the advantage that del Toro has over, for example, a USO and over even Karabas and Roglic is that there's no. There's no expectations. You know, nobody expects him to win the Giro. He will expect. He's. He said. I think he. I read somewhere that he's now gonna see, you know, how far he can get, and if he can hang on, he. He will try to hang on to the jersey till Rome. He said that. So, hey.

George Hincapie (25:33)

Yesterday, when they would. They wouldn't let him work at first, so they were clearly just thinking about iu. So.

Johan Bruyneel (25:38)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (25:38)

What do you think.

Johan Bruyneel (25:40)

What do you think, George, about UAE's tactics? I mean, I have my. I have my.

Spencer Martin (25:46)

Well, just before you guys start on that, if you didn't see the stage, there was a crash. Del Toro probably doesn't know what happens. Just starts attacking right away. So he kicked off that winning move. Del Toro was the one who started the winning move is polling initially, and then the car must have told him to stop. So just to set that up. But I would be curious to get your take on that, George.

Johan Bruyneel (26:08)

I'll. I'll add something else to it. I don't know if you saw that. I mean, I have a really, really hard time to believe. Del Toro said that he started pulling because he looked back and he saw a white jersey. Thought it was. Are you so. And then after a while, he figured out it was Bernal. There's no way.

George Hincapie (26:27)

I don't know. I mean, it was quite dusty. It was quite dusty. And. Yeah, but the radio gets on really quick. But even before that happened, I mean, the poll that Mads Peterson took for, like, five kilometers and completely decimated the peloton. These little trek is so far, like, I think, overall the best team in the. In the Giro, what they've done has been incredible.

Johan Bruyneel (26:50)

Yeah. Yeah. But on uae, George, the way.

Spencer Martin (26:53)

So.

Johan Bruyneel (26:54)

So we have. We have Del Toro up front with initially three emails riders. Right. Because Aronsman was there, too. He flooded.

Spencer Martin (27:01)

And Pedersen took his poll. There was six Ineos riders in that group in one Red Bull, and it was Roglich. So those guys were so strong.

Johan Bruyneel (27:10)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (27:11)

So.

Johan Bruyneel (27:11)

But then we have the situation. Roglish is behind with Pitcock. UAE with Ayuso is in group two. And we have the. Initially six, then. Then five, then four riders. And. And they were riding everywhere. They were riding in the front, they were riding in the back. What's your opinion about those tactics?

George Hincapie (27:37)

I mean, I think there was. Obviously, they weren't quite sure what to do, because having Bernal up there with a strong teammate, essentially riding away from your. Your leader, even though you have Delta or there, I don't know. That's a tough one.

Johan Bruyneel (27:54)

Yeah.

George Hincapie (27:55)

Clearly, they didn't have the confidence in El Del Toro that they have in Iuso. But maybe now.

Johan Bruyneel (28:01)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, after. After yesterday's stage, I think they should have. You know, if you look at. I mean, my. My impression with UAE and not just in this race, you know, they have the strongest team. We know that in this Giro and basically all. In all the races, the whole season there, you know, they have a huge budget. They have too many talented riders actually, on the team. You know, they're. They're. They're great at scouting talent. We have to. We have to acknowledge that, you know, they. They find the young riders who become really big riders. But I have the impression that any race where Pogachar is not present, it's a tactical chaos. And it turns out that often they get away with the win because they have really strong riders. But tactically, like yesterday, for example, and I agree, maybe they say, okay, we can't have the complete confidence in Del Toro, but he's there. You know, he can sit on the wheel of Bernal. And in the back, they have Bahrain and Little Trek and EF with Karapas. All riders that are, you know. You know, that are also podium candidates who will do the work, you know, so it's. It looks to me like they're focusing exclusively on Roglic, but they're forgetting about these other guys. I mean, Carapas, he's there, you know.

Spencer Martin (29:42)

Do you remember how carapace won the 0johan? Because somebody was focused on Primos Roglich.

Johan Bruyneel (29:48)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (29:48)

And they forgot about Richard Carapaz.

Johan Bruyneel (29:50)

Yeah. Yeah. So you know, I. I don't know. I mean, I.

Spencer Martin (29:57)

This.

Johan Bruyneel (29:57)

I'm just gonna. I mean, it's. And this is just my opinion from a distance. I have absolutely no. No information about this. But it looks to me like uae, obviously, Pogacha is the undisputed leader where any race he is at and he's in shape, the whole team is at his service, and they should be, because he usually wins. But then you have this parallel group of riders, huge talents, and I think it's like, okay, any race where today is not, you guys have your opportunity. The problem is that if you send too many of those riders with ambitions to the same race, you have, again, the same problem. And I don't know if it's. If those are certain promises that are being made. I would guess, for example. Right. That Ayuso is obviously a big champion. He's one of the favorites of this race. He must have been promised, okay, you're the leader in the Giro. The team is with you right now. He gets in, Del Toro's there, and somebody will. Machine will have said to Del Toro, hey, you know what? You get your chances, and you kind of have to keep these guys motivated also. Right? So I don't know. I mean, yesterday it looked weird because it looked like there was no clear communication within the team. And that's also sometimes happening, especially in those kind of stages where you have this is like, same situation, like, party to bed. You know, the cars are far behind, you can't see, you can't communicate properly, and then it's. It's a mess.

George Hincapie (31:39)

Yeah. But even. Even, you know, they're saying, these guys, what was it Adam, Yates, and Ayuso were behind? You still want to have somebody up there, especially a guy like Del Toro, that has a good chance of. Of becoming the winner of the Giro. So even though there was probably a lot going on, probably tough to make the decisions right there at the moment, but I think they couldn't have had a better result. I used to. Didn't lose that much time. He didn't lose any time to Primos. It's probably big.

Johan Bruyneel (32:08)

You know, he gained time on Primos.

George Hincapie (32:10)

He gained time on Primus. All in all, it was a huge day for them. It was definitely a win for them.

Spencer Martin (32:17)

Yeah, well, yeah. By mistake or not, Del Toro did the right thing because he didn't pull, and then he attacked, and he. He had to drop Bernal, and he did. And then he got Bernal out of that group. So he's not taking time on you. So we are. And guys, I was just as excited. I was thinking, oh, my. Wow, this is crazy. We're gonna have Del Toro win the Giro. That's what I thought after the stage. Do you know how many 21 year olds have won Grand Tours in the last 100 years?

George Hincapie (32:42)

How many?

Spencer Martin (32:43)

Two. And one of them is tatted. Pagatro is probably the best of all time. So if you're a director, you can't.

Johan Bruyneel (32:49)

Who's the other one?

Spencer Martin (32:50)

Giuseppe Cerrone we talked about.

Johan Bruyneel (32:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Spencer Martin (32:54)

I mean, that guy. Let's get. Is he. Is he alive? Let's get him on the show. Yeah. And just so you can. As a director, you can't just pencil in the win, you know, because there are a lot of questions about. And this is probably one of the hardest third weeks of a Grand Tour you could ever have. So it gets slightly complicated now. Let me. Let me ask you this question. How did they. UAE's four riders in the top nine. That's too many, frankly. And how do they handle. They're going to have the jersey at least until stage 16, at least, because there's no other. Del Toro is not losing in the time trial, so he's going to have that jersey into the third week. Primos Roglic attacks. Del Toro goes with them. ISO, who had stitches after the stage, by the way, looked hurt, is dropped. What do they do? Like, have they lost a teammate essentially, and gained a rival from the stage yesterday?

Johan Bruyneel (33:46)

No.

George Hincapie (33:47)

Yeah, I don't see either. Yeah, no.

Spencer Martin (33:49)

But then I also has one less rider to help him because that writer is now racing for his own chances. Right.

Johan Bruyneel (33:55)

Well, it's very simple, Spencer, now. Okay, we'll see what the situation is after the time trial. It may be shuffled a bit or, you know, there may be less time gaps, but still Del Toro is going to be in the lead and. And Primos is going to be at least, let's say at least one and a half, maybe two minutes behind Del Toro. Right. So the Primos needs to attack. Del Toro is in the lead. Ayuso doesn't have to attack.

Spencer Martin (34:26)

Primos.

Johan Bruyneel (34:27)

He has to follow Primos.

George Hincapie (34:28)

Well, let's not forget, Johan, you would do this if you had a guy like Adam Yates. You have Brandon McNulty. You have. I mean, you almost don't even need. I use so to live last kilometer, 2 kilometers of these big climbs. So what do you do? You just keep these strong guys together. That primos get 20, 30 seconds and just kind of keep them there and reel them in. If he's that strong, which we don't even know if he's that much stronger. We don't know that yet.

Johan Bruyneel (34:53)

But.

Spencer Martin (34:53)

But what if Del Toro goes with Primos and then they can't reel him in, is my question. Because that. I think that's.

George Hincapie (34:59)

If he's strong enough to go with Primos, then he's showing that he's got the legs. Yeah.

Spencer Martin (35:04)

And we're just trusting stage 20 over the Fenestra he's okay with. I mean, I guess you have to at this point, but that's. That's a lot of Trust in a 21 year old to say, well, Spencer.

Johan Bruyneel (35:15)

If he gets to stage 20, trust me, he's gonna. He's gonna survive stage 22.

Spencer Martin (35:21)

What about Tom Dumalon at the vault? Remember, he was like. We were like, wow, this guy's unbelievable. And then it's like epic Collapse on Stage 20. Big Mountain Stage. So it does happen with these on your news, as you'd say.

Johan Bruyneel (35:33)

Yeah, no, I think I, you know, it's to be seen. We don't know. I would give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment. He's in great shape and they have to take the time back on him, you know, so.

George Hincapie (35:45)

Yeah. And they have Ayuso just sitting there. That could just.

Johan Bruyneel (35:48)

Yeah.

George Hincapie (35:48)

Sit on Primos's wheel or. He's still a minute ahead of him.

Johan Bruyneel (35:52)

Now another.

Spencer Martin (35:53)

Guys are overestimating how well this team is working together.

George Hincapie (35:57)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (35:58)

Another. Another question, Spencer. Completely different. We're talking about UAE being extremely strong tactically, sometimes questionable, but still, they're. They're in a great situation. On the other side, Red Bull Bora with the big favorite of this zero. Primos. Completely the opposite. They're nowhere. I mean, thank God for Julio Pelizari. This guy is worth his weight in gold right now. I mean, he's not. Not very heavy. He's skinny. I mean, but he's. He's just unbelievable. I mean, without. Without Palizari, Primus would be alone every single time. And okay, they do have an excuse. They lost Jay Hindley early on, who was supposed to be, you know, the. The second best rider on the team. That does have an impact, but still. And it's. It's.

George Hincapie (36:56)

I'm.

Johan Bruyneel (36:56)

I'm a bit. I'm a bit surprised that they don't have any more riders around Primus.

Spencer Martin (37:02)

What's the mood on the rest day, Johan? Is someone having a hard conversation with Danny Martinez? I mean, he's the one that.

Johan Bruyneel (37:08)

It's. What can you do? But you can Only do what you can do. I mean, it's not like Spencer. It's not like these guys get dropped because they want to get dropped. They just. They're just not there.

Spencer Martin (37:19)

But as a director, yeah, it is. It's shocking because Pelizari, if they. What. What if they don't pick him up in the off season and what if they don't send him to the Giro? Primos would have nobody at this race.

Johan Bruyneel (37:31)

Do you know anything about Danny Martinez? What's.

Spencer Martin (37:34)

What's his situation?

Johan Bruyneel (37:35)

Why is he not.

George Hincapie (37:37)

Yeah, not sure. I know that he was. He trained in Medellin and Bogota most of the off season. Started racing really late, you know, was all in for the Giro and the Tour. So, I mean, a guy like that, maybe he just had a bad week start, but you can't count him out. I mean, I. I would be shocked if he doesn't come around once they hit the high mountains in the second week. And so I think hopefully has a good recovery day today. And, you know, I'd be shocked if he goes forward in the time trial, even though he's a very good time trial. But he's not one of the favorites. I would take two. Two days to recover, and then we could see a completely different Danny Martinez.

Johan Bruyneel (38:13)

Yeah.

George Hincapie (38:14)

From stage 10 on.

Johan Bruyneel (38:15)

Yeah. If. If.

George Hincapie (38:16)

I know you would say that, Johan, if it was your.

Johan Bruyneel (38:19)

Anybody.

George Hincapie (38:20)

Take it easy.

Johan Bruyneel (38:20)

If. If anybody except Primos goes full gas in the time trial on Red Bull, that's.

George Hincapie (38:27)

No. Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (38:28)

You can't send them home because you need them. But. Yeah, that would not be the way to do it.

George Hincapie (38:33)

No.

Spencer Martin (38:36)

Yeah. I mean, well, so let's talk about Primos's current predicament. Pickle, 10th, 225. In some ways, he needs to be down here because the. As you said with the team, the team's a disaster. They can't control anything. Like they were exposed on stage eight when it. What? When the breakaway was five and a half minutes up the road. Ua easily isolated Primos. And did you guys hear this? In the final few hundred meters, ua blocks the road I use so attacks. And Prima says no teammates there to help him get through that. He loses only a second, but just shows you if I. If UAE can fan out across the front of the road and there's no Red Bull there to fight back against that. That's a bad situation. What like Prima's is, he can't do the 200 meter tap in. Probably he's going to gain some time in the time trial. He is only 1:12 back on a rider that has podiumed at a Grand Tour before. So it's not a total disaster. Like the Ayuso Lee kind of makes it look more dire than it is. He'll be closer after the time trial, you would assume, if he's not too hurt. And then what's the plan from here? Like, how would you gain this time back?

George Hincapie (39:42)

Well, one, I don't think he really. I mean, he kind of just got stuck behind that crash. Did he actually fall down hard? Because to me, it looked like it's kind of hard sort of in the middle.

Johan Bruyneel (39:49)

But he went. He went down. He went down. And then I think the biggest problem was his mechanical afterwards, you know?

George Hincapie (39:55)

Yeah, that's what it seems like.

Spencer Martin (39:57)

Took him a long time to get going because of the. Like, he had untangle his bike and then. Yeah, like having a flat tire when you're chasing on obviously is not good.

George Hincapie (40:06)

Yeah, it's a tough day. I mean, tomorrow is a huge day for all those guys. We'll see how much time they make up. But, you know, you cannot count out Primo's Roglic. No, he's just one of those guys that's just going to keep getting better. He recovers as good or better than anybody, and he's got the experience. The Grand Tour winds behind him.

Spencer Martin (40:24)

Johan, where do you think he's going to be? So he's 112 down on Ayuso, who's second, 225 in Del Toro. After this time trial, do you think. I mean, the big question, too. We didn't talk about this, but Delta, that the Del Toro situation. We don't know what we're going to get from Juan you. So tomorrow, stitches two days before a time trial in your knee. That's not great.

Johan Bruyneel (40:44)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (40:45)

So they might just be going with Del Toro. If Iuso loses time in the time trial.

Johan Bruyneel (40:50)

I don't think the stitches are gonna be a determinating factor, but I use. Is in great shape also. He'll do. He'll do an okay time trial. I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal unless it gets infected or something. You never know.

Spencer Martin (41:05)

But these guys have so many knee issues now and then. Just, I don't know, like hitting. You know, like if you hit your knee.

George Hincapie (41:13)

Yeah, I agree. I think that's gonna hurt. That's gonna hurt tomorrow. Rest day today. He's gonna wake up all stiff and sore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (41:21)

The rest day after. The day after a crash. That's. That's not good.

Spencer Martin (41:24)

And you have a 682 chain ring to push. Good luck.

George Hincapie (41:27)

Yeah yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (41:31)

Yeah. I don't think it's going to be 68 for Ayusu.

George Hincapie (41:33)

So what are our picks for the time trial tomorrow everybody?

Spencer Martin (41:36)

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Anything on the site, plus free betting bundle. I'm. I might do this and I already own a Helix. This deal is exclusive for any listeners of the move again, that's helixsleep.com themove all right, let's get back to the show. So, time trial here. Let me say what the course is. It is 28.6 K, which you guys look at that. You think that's not very long. You're like, no, that's one of the longest time trials of the season that they're going to do. It's basically flat. There's a small bump in the middle. The favorites are. This is bet365. Just because I have it pulled up. Josh Tarling.

Johan Bruyneel (46:40)

Oof.

Spencer Martin (46:40)

Sorry, guys. If you're going to pick him. Minus 275. So presumably he did not crash yesterday and is very healthy. Edward Eduardo Afini. Plus 900 Wild Bernard. Plus 1400 Ethan Hayter. Plus 1400 Juaniuso Plus 1600 Primus Raglitz. Plus 1600 Luke Plat. Plus 2200 Mateus Vodsek. Plus 2200 Johan, do you want to go first? Who is your pick to win?

Johan Bruyneel (47:04)

Well, I know who George is gonna pick, so I'll have to pick someone else, but I'll go with Eduardo Afini, pure time trial specialist. He's in good shape. Flat terrain, European champion time trial. Was he, was he at plus 900, you said?

Spencer Martin (47:26)

Yeah, it was actually a really good pick because that's really good price. And you're right, he's been very strong. I looked back at these time trial winners. The zero. It's oftentimes Italian time trial specialists like Mateo Sobrero, like, you wouldn't really remember that, but he did win a time trial at the Giro. Like at the Tour, it's usually gc. Guys. I remember that one.

Johan Bruyneel (47:46)

I remember that one time. It was the last time trial was Marco Pinotti who won.

Spencer Martin (47:52)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (47:52)

You know, you're in Italy. Motorbikes. Motorbikes tend to be quite patriotic.

Spencer Martin (48:02)

Well, Giro 20, 23 time trials. Felipe Organo wins all three.

Johan Bruyneel (48:08)

Yeah, okay. But he's our best time trial in the world. One of the best time trials in the World.

George Hincapie (48:14)

I'd go with Josh Darling. I mean, obviously, he won the first time trial. He's full of confidence right now, and the team is riding so strong. I feel like the team is. The ambiance must be great. It's sort of creeping their way back into the upper tiers of the pro peloton, so they're full of confidence and going to keep the momentum going. So I'm taking Josh Darling.

Spencer Martin (48:37)

I'm going to get. You have to put, like, 100 grand on tarling to get a return of 50 bucks. I'm going to go wout van Art because the kom that you pointed out, George, it just is very good. It's shocking how much he's recovered from stage three, four, five, six. Like, looks very good. My question for you guys, I forgot to ask earlier. So he's sitting on the wheel, obviously, he should, because he has Simon. He's back who? Simon Yates is looking. We talked a lot about Bernal. Simon Yates looking pretty good in this Jerd Italia he's sitting on. Did you see him pull up to Del Toro and talk to him, ask him a question? I'd almost kind of look like. He asked if he worked with Del Toro, give him the stage, and Del Toro just said no, But I don't know what happened, but it was kind of this funny exchange. And then he goes back to the wheel, never to be seen again until 400 meters to go. Do you guys have any idea what he.

George Hincapie (49:25)

What he's asked about? Well, though.

Spencer Martin (49:28)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (49:28)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (49:29)

Well, pulls up to Del Toro, like, the only time he's been out of the wheel, says something. Del Toro kind of just ignores him and keeps riding.

George Hincapie (49:36)

And my. My guess is like, hey, I can't. You know, I can't work. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm not gonna attack you.

Johan Bruyneel (49:42)

I think knowing Walt, he. He probably said, hey, you know, like, sorry, I have to keep doing this, but. And, sorry, I'm gonna go for the stage win.

George Hincapie (49:55)

Yeah, exactly.

Spencer Martin (49:56)

But I think, you know, we have so strong. Man, you're awesome.

Johan Bruyneel (49:59)

We haven't talked about. We haven't talked about Walt. I think we should definitely touch on that because, man, what a way to. To fight back. You know, he started the Giro, we knew he had been sick. Didn't go as planned. In Belgium, there was already this theory that, yeah, you know, Walt is going to pull out of the Giro, try to recover for the Tour. That guy is a fighter, man. I mean, the way he won that stage yesterday, being on the limit, I mean, he was With. He was with climbers, he was with Bernal, he was with Del Toro Aren'tsman. And especially also where he won. You know, you can say, okay, this is just a stage in the Giro, you know, but I think for Walt, this was such an important win because of the circumstances. And I have the impression, having listened to two interviews he did with Belgian tv, we have no idea what this guy went through. You know, we know he crashed, you know, very hard in Watergame last year, very hard in the Tour of Spain. But there's so much more. I mean, it's so much more. This, this explosion of emotion he had was, was telling, was really telling. And the fact that it was in Siena where we discovered Walt Van Art as a road racer actually in 2018. I think we all have the images still of third getting off his bike with cramps in that last ramp. Yeah, he won this important stage. Now it is, it is an important moment in, in Walt's season. And now that he has the confidence back, I think he's back to. I mean, it's not, he's not his top level yet, but yeah, I'm, I'm afraid that, I mean, afraid for the rival teams of Fisma that Walt von Art is going to do a lot of damage in July.

George Hincapie (52:00)

I agree. And he, he actually went and he said in his post race interview that once he missed the breakaway, he thought to himself, no chance for the stage win, like the climbers are going to ride away from him. And he said, just started feeling better and better and all of a sudden he's in the position to win. So he went from thinking he had no chance to winning arguably the biggest stage of the zero thus far. And like you said, I think that's just going to catapult them to even more wins in this Giro and probably in July as well.

Johan Bruyneel (52:28)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (52:29)

And the final 300 meters, it's so dramatic because like if you overtake with 400 meters to go, it looks like it's too far, but you're winding through these alleys and it's very hard to get around you. It's also funny. I mean, obviously we've been, I mean, Johan, we've been not giving him a hard time, but talking about his struggles, I went back and looked. So he had a great Tour of Spain before he crashes out. Three stage wins, 20, 25. Disappointment. Right. That's the narrative. Terrible. He's done 23 race days, 10 times in the top 10 top fives at Roubaix, Flanders, Pill and Amstel Gold I mean, I. How many times that even happened that someone top five Roubaix and Flanders and then top five Amstel gold. That's almost. That almost never happens. So his season actually has been pretty good. But this win, I agree it's very important to like. Yeah, I know you can kind of.

Johan Bruyneel (53:17)

Break through, you know, this if. If you're Walt Bernard in Belgium, man, is so much pressure on you. It's crazy. It's crazy. And at the same time, he is so loved, you know, like people like him, they're all rooting for him. And even in. Even in a lot of other countries, I saw a few images afterwards from commentators from other countries. You know, everybody wanted Walt vanart to win. I mean, they all love Del Toro, right? Del Toro is a very likable guy, super good writer. But everybody wanted Walt Van Aert to win, and he won. And it was. It was amazing.

George Hincapie (53:52)

Yeah, I agree. 1.

Spencer Martin (53:54)

Del Toro gets the jersey. So it's. Yeah, it's the rare win. Win you get is easy for a fan to make that decision. But do you guys have anything else to add before we take off?

George Hincapie (54:03)

I think we're good.

Johan Bruyneel (54:05)

Well, George is off to the National Championships with Enzo, so we wish him about. Good luck.

George Hincapie (54:11)

Thank you.

Johan Bruyneel (54:12)

Hopefully another American title. That would be number six.

George Hincapie (54:16)

Yeah, that would be number six. Hopefully. Shall see. I'm gonna call you on the way to the airport if it's okay. Johan, I need some advice on the radio because I've never done that before.

Johan Bruyneel (54:25)

So George is going to be the. The radio man in. In the National Championships behind. Yeah son Enzo. That's exciting.

George Hincapie (54:33)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (54:34)

Okay. Call me.

George Hincapie (54:35)

All right, I will.

Spencer Martin (54:36)

George, when does the time trial? When's the road race time trial?

George Hincapie (54:39)

Tomorrow, I think the first rider is at 9am East coast time. And the criterium is Thursday night. And this road race is Sunday.

Spencer Martin (54:47)

Okay, sweet. We'll keep an eye out for results.

George Hincapie (54:50)

All right, thank you.

Spencer Martin (54:51)

Good luck. Thanks, guys.

George Hincapie (54:53)

Thank you.

Johan Bruyneel (54:54)

Okay, bye. Bye.