How Many Stage Wins Can Pogačar Get? | TdF 2026 Stage 14 | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE Podcast Summary

Episode: How Many Stage Wins Can Pogačar Get? | TdF 2026 Stage 14 | THEMOVE+
Date: July 18, 2026
Hosts: Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel
Theme: Deep-dive analysis of Tour de France Stage 14, the dominance of Tadej Pogačar and the UAE Team, podium battles, team tactics, and rising stars.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down Stage 14 of the 2026 Tour de France and look ahead to Stage 15. The discussion centers on Tadej Pogačar’s remarkable win, the UAE team’s control, the evolving battle for podium positions, and the emergence of new talents such as Paul Sixas. The duo also explores questions about team strategies, historical perspectives, contract rumors, and broader themes like the evolution of Tour de France racing, with their trademark blend of insider knowledge, opinion, and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Stage 14 Recap: Pogačar’s Dominance

• Pogačar wins another mountain stage in the Vosges, finishing ahead of Isaac Del Toro by 38 seconds.
• UAE Emirates controls the race; they catch Richard Carapaz and Tobias Halland Johannessen at the final climb.
• Notable changes in classification: Paul Sixas takes the white jersey from Juan Ayuso (by just 3 seconds); Del Toro only 31 seconds back.
• The breakaway was ultimately neutralized, primarily by Decathlon’s work on the final climb.

[01:30] Johan Bruyneel on UAE’s Power:

“How unbelievable is that? You’re the strongest rider, you know, you have the strongest team, and you kind of can dictate what the development of the stage is going to be. That’s what Pogacar and UAE are doing, everybody.”

• Jonas Vingegaard (Visma) loses time on a punchy finish—a sign he’s “racing for second.”

Historical Context: Elusive National Victories

• 50th anniversary of last Belgian Tour win (Lucien Van Impe, 1976).
• American drought: 101 stages since the last American (Sepp Kuss) won.

[03:13] Johan Bruyneel:

“The French are complaining that Bernard Hinault, who won the last time in 1985, the Belgians, since 1976 we have not won the Tour de France. And we are a cycling nation.”

Sprint & Early Stage Tactics

• Jasper Philipsen wins the early intermediate sprint, gaining points on rival Mads Pedersen.
• Teams target these sprints as objectives, often waiting until afterward for breakaways to form.
• Philipsen and Girmay continue their green jersey battle, but fewer bunch sprints remain.

[05:48] Johan Bruyneel:

“I think he’ll need some points in another stage also. It’s remarkable that Philipsen and Girmay keep… but still, it’s the only thing left to do for them.”

The Breakaway & Team Tactics

• Large break contained Tom Pidcock (GC contender), three Visma riders (Jorgenson, Armirail, Campenaerts), Carapaz, and others.
• UAE’s control and unconcern over Visma’s tactics is highlighted; they “could not care less.”

[09:21] Spencer Martin:

“It’s like flies buzzing around a T. rex... Visma sends three riders. Okay, so what? ...We are a long way from [2022].”

• Debate over Visma’s rationale: Stage win? Morale? Ultimately, they had no realistic shot for the win from the break given UAE’s strength.

[12:41] Johan Bruyneel:

“It’s like, you know, you cut a chicken’s head off and then the body will run around... Is this reflexes of former Visma that we're seeing, but they just don’t have the manpower anymore?”

Key Team Contributions

• Felix Grossschartner (UAE) single-handedly reduces the break’s gap; Nils Politt also gets praise for his huge engine.
• Decathlon surprisingly drives the pace on the final climb, dropping UAE teammates (McNulty, Yates) and some GC contenders.

[13:55] Spencer Martin:

“Those are strong guys... Felix, you’re on the front. And then he’s got to pull back strong, motivated guys and get the gap down to a minute by the base of the final climb.”

GC: Vingegaard’s Move and UAE’s Calculated Dominance

• Vingegaard paces hard, appears to work for Pogačar rather than against—a move viewed as “settling for second.”
• Pogačar follows, then accelerates and gains nearly a minute on Vingegaard and the rest.

[16:11] Johan Bruyneel:

“Jonas is, in my opinion, racing for second. That’s the only thing I can think of. Otherwise, it makes no sense.”

[20:27] Johan Bruyneel:

“I also was surprised to hear some comments... ‘We saw a good Pogačar, not a great Pogačar.’ Which race have you been watching? The guy attacked with 1 1/2 K from the top, and he takes almost a minute on his closest rival...”

• Pogačar’s attack numbers: ~8.4 w/kg for 4.5 minutes at the finish.
• Discussion of how surgical and controlled his racing now is—even “settling in” after his attack puts him further ahead.

Records & Stats: Pogačar’s Marvelous Win Rate

• 4th stage win this Tour, 25th career Tour win, 125th pro victory—racing at an astonishing 31% win rate across ~406 race days.
• Historic context: Only Eddy Merckx and Freddy Maertens have won more than 7 stages in a single Tour (record is 8).

[28:29] Johan Bruyneel:

“So that is—that’s ridiculous. That rate, that winning rate is crazy... Most of the time you don't win... That’s 31% win rate, by the way. I’ve never seen anything like that.”

The Third Week: What’s Ahead?

• Half the total climbing in the race remains, with a week and seven stages to go—a “brutal” design, possibly too hard for meaningful spectacle as many riders are spent.
• The hardest third week ever? Concern it limits drama as only a few riders are still truly racing for GC.

Listener Q&A & Podium Projections

Tom Pidcock’s Breakaway

• Not much to gain; likely easier than sitting in the peloton, but paid for efforts from the previous day.

Podium Projections

• Predicted final GC: Pogačar, Vingegaard, and Paul Sixas as the surprise podium, after Sixas’ increasingly impressive performance.

[39:22] Johan Bruyneel:

“That’s a special guy. So I’m taking back what the criticism and the skepticism and the doubts I had before the Tour. If you’re at this level, he showed today after 14 stages. You’re not breaking down. You’re staying there.”

Paul Sixas: Future and Contract Rumors

• Heavy rumors about a big-money offer (13M EUR) from Pinarello Q36.5 and UAE interest. Both hosts agree he should stay at Decathlon and build the team around him; leaving for UAE makes “zero sense.”
• The French cycling scene is abuzz with his potential; President Macron even publicly weighs in.

[44:12] Johan Bruyneel:

“There’s only one way I could see him go to UAE is if Isaac del Toro leaves and then, you know, be in the shadow of Pogačar and then take over from Pogačar... But definitely not go to UAE. He needs to stay long, man.”

Remco Evenepoel: GC Rider or Classics Specialist?

• Listener asks if Remco’s repeated weight loss/gain and Tour focus is a mistake.
• Both agree he’ll stick with GC for now (he’s a Vuelta winner, on Tour podium). But at 7M EUR transfer + 6M salary: “That’s a lot. You gotta be better than... That’s fifth place money.”

[54:10] Johan Bruyneel:

“I think Remco is going to keep fighting, and he’s figured out that even on really hard stages... he doesn’t give up. His goal is the podium.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On UAE’s dominance

“It’s like flies, like, buzzing around a T. Rex. It is like, don’t care. They don’t even register it.” – Spencer Martin [09:21]

On Vingegaard pacing for Pogačar

“You’re not going to pace for him. I thought Jon was going to start dumping a bottle over Pogačar, give him some food. It looked like he was his teammate. It was really strange.” – Spencer Martin [15:36]

On Pogačar’s win rate

“That’s 31% win rate, by the way. I’ve never seen anything like that. That’s crazy.” – Spencer Martin [28:49]

On Remco’s Tour ambitions

“He’s a hell of a bike rider... But is fifth place a success? I would say probably not.” – Spencer Martin [56:26]

On Paul Sixas’ future

“He should definitely stay. And he should use the... unlimited resources of that team, you know, to build everything around him.” – Johan Bruyneel [43:31]

On Decathlon’s support

“They are there... there’s always at least two riders with him and... actually putting the hurt on the favorites.” – Johan Bruyneel [46:53]

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Timestamps to Important Segments

• Stage 14 Recap and Podium Shuffle: [01:30] – [08:37]
• UAE Tactics & Team Dominance: [08:01] – [13:55]
• Visma’s Breakaway Tactics and Critique: [09:21] – [12:41]
• Grossschartner & Decathlon’s Key Climb: [13:09] – [15:13]
• Vingegaard’s Strange Tactics / Racing for Second: [15:44] – [20:53]
• Pogačar’s Attack Analysis & Dominance: [20:27] – [23:20]
• Pogačar Career Statistics: [27:22] – [28:53]
• Stage Projections and Third Week Hardness: [29:54] – [31:00]
• Paul Sixas’ Podium & Future: [39:22] – [47:18]
• Remco Evenepoel’s GC Future: [51:23] – [57:19]

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Preview & Predictions

• Stage 15 Preview: Brutal finish, favoring a Pogačar attack. “I think Pogach again... straightforward stage. It’s super hard. This climb is incredibly hard.” – Johan Bruyneel [60:51]
• Both expect another Pogačar win, with Vingegaard and Sixas likely rounding out the day’s podium.
• The hosts agree: barring misfortune, Pogačar is on pace for seven stage wins, just shy of Merckx’s record.

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Final Thoughts

• The episode showcased Pogačar’s clinical and surgical dominance and shifted narrative to GC battles for second and third.
• Detailed discussion of emerging stars, especially Paul Sixas, and the difficulties of maintaining morale and strategy as the Tour becomes ever more selective.
• Listeners are left with the sense that the third week may be historic in difficulty, even if the overall winner is already determined.
• The episode closes with a tease of more carnage in the mountains to come, and the hope that someone—anyone—can challenge the current hierarchy, though all signs point toward further Pogačar dominance.

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Transcript

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[Spencer Martin]

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[Johan Berniel]

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[Johan Berniel]

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[Spencer Martin]

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[Johan Berniel]

How. How unbelievable is that? You know, like you're. You're the strongest rider, you know, you have the strongest team, and you kind of can dictate what the development of the stage is going to be. That's what Pogacha and Uee are doing, everybody.

[Spencer Martin]

Welcome back to the Moot. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We're breaking down stage 14 of the Tour de France and previewing tomorrow stage 15, as well as answering a few listener questions. Johan. Today's stage was won by Tade Pagachar, with Isaac Del Toro second. Yeah, shocking. We were right with our pick. I was getting a little nervous halfway through, but UA had it under control. Del Toro was second 38 seconds back, Paul Sixas third on the same time. They both get time bonuses though. And Jonas Fingergaard falling away again at the end of a little punchy finish after a climb. 44 seconds back, loses 10 seconds to 6 os 12 seconds. And like in real time, adding the time bonuses to Del Toro, looks like we might have a battle for not only the podium, but for second place. And then have a thrilling battle for the white jersey with Paul Sixas taking it from Juana Uso and del Toro just 31 seconds back. Daiso is also only 33 seconds back. It was a mountain stage through the Vosges mountains in the Alsace region, finishing at the same ski resort where Bogachar won a few years ago. But as you pointed out, different climb. Almost a bike path type climb. It was, I thought, a pretty incredible stage. We saw UAE control again, but it was a. They barely caught Richard Carapaz and Tobias Holland Johansson at the top of the final climb. Decathlon was actually the one pulling. Remco has dropped. Remco was back. A lot going on. But Johan, what did you think about this stage and what's your big takeaway?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, no surprises, Spencer. Before we talk about the stage, actually I want to take the advantage of congratulating Belgian Lucien Van Impe, who was. It's today, the 50th anniversary of the last Belgian victory in the Tour de France. 1976 is the last time. You know, the French, the French are complaining that Bernard Henaud, who won the last time in 1985, the Belgians, since 1976 we have not won the Tour de France. And we are a cycling nation.

[Spencer Martin]

So, you know, that is really weird.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So Lucian Van impe won in 1976 after having won already six times. The king of the mountains. So he's six times polka dot jersey. But today there was a party in Belgium to honor his. His victory 50 years ago. So congratulations, Lucien Van Impe.

[Spencer Martin]

You got to get a Belgian Belgian Tour winner. Also almost five years since an American 101 stages since. Since an American has won a Tour de France stage set Kuss into hometown of Andorra being the last time it happened. But that, that shocked me. That's a long time ago. Doesn't seem like that long ago, but yeah, almost five years. We got to get an American win here. What are we doing? But Johan, what did you think of Bogachar's win and then the scramble behind for the podium?

[Johan Berniel]

You know, first of all, you know, before we could talk about Pugach's win. Spencer. Spencer. I think, you know, if we look at today's stage, it was a as predicted. You know, initially the bonus sprint came really early. You know, we had intermediate sprint really at the beginning of the stage after they had to go through some really bad weather. By the way, at the start, really pouring rain, dangerous. Luckily that cleared up because that region, when it rains, it can be really slippery there. It does rain a lot, so it's really a green part of France. But the roads are tricky. The sprint, I think was the first event of the day. Right. Jasper Philipson won that sprint. Pedersen got second, Gitmite third. The usual suspects. So, you know, okay, for Pedersen, you know, he loses another five points. So I think was Phillipson is now like 36 points behind.

[Spencer Martin]

36 points. So if this happens every stage for the rest of the tour, Pedersen wins by one point because he is a 37. So yeah, I think, I guess all he has to do is just get second in every intermediate sprint and he's good to go.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, I think he'll need some points in another stage also. It's. It's remarkable actually that, you know, Phillips and Gilmai keep. I mean, of course it's also the only thing that's left to do for them. Right? Yeah, but, but still, I mean, I'm bets. I mean it's going to be very difficult that there's another pure bunch print. So if I would look ahead at those stages and I'm Philipson and Guillermeyer, I'd say it's going to be extremely difficult. But then on the other hand, that's what left for them. It's interesting at the beginning of the stages to see those sprints because that's basically for Alpecin and for nsn, for example. That's their race. That's their race. Yeah, you know, little track. I mean, fortunately they have guys for gc, so they have other objectives. But yeah, Phillips and. Yeah, good for him.

[Spencer Martin]

And the break doesn't even try to go. They just wait until after the intermediate sprint because they know that they can't get away.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And then as expected, you know, a group went, big group initially with surprisingly also again Tom Pidcock in that. In that group. Yeah, three Visma riders in that group. You know, I think there was Armiral and Jorgensen and Victor Campenaerts and then, you know, there was Carapace and the Johanneson twins, Parepatra, Aina Rubio. Strong, strong ride, strong riders in that break. And we could see straight away, okay, UAE setting the pace. The moment we saw that, they kept it around two, two and a half minutes, it was clear what the intention was going to be. And actually we should have listened to some interviews from before the start because there were some. For example, did you see Johanneson's interview after the finish? Yeah. He said he talked to today and that Pulachar had know, he had asked, you know, he told him he wanted to go on the break and Pavar had said, ah, you know, maybe not a great day for the break.

[Spencer Martin]

And he went anyway.

[Johan Berniel]

How, how unbelievable is that? You know, like you're, you're the strongest rider, you know, you have the strongest team and you kind of can dictate what the development of the stage is going to be. That's what Pogacha and UEE are doing.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it's incredible.

[Johan Berniel]

And yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Did we say Tom. Tom Pickax was in there, which did force. I mean, I don't think UAE is seriously worried about Pickax, but it did put a guy that is fourth in the GC in the break, which essentially kills the break because you're not going to get a big enough gap. The GC guy up there. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

And also the three Visma riders. And so I don't know what you think, why were they in there? I mean, it's, to me, it's like when I look at these strategies and then, of course, you know, I mean, it's. We have to applaud for these teams to send guys in there, but, you know, with the guys that were there, they were not going to win the stage because there were stronger climbers in there, but yet they did a lot of work. And then what's really remarkable to me is that, like, UAE are absolutely not concerned about whatever tactical move Visma is doing. They could not care less. They're just, you know, like, Visma sends three riders. Okay, so what great guys. See you later on the climb.

[Spencer Martin]

I know. It's like flies, like, buzzing around a T. Rex. It is like, don't care. They don't even register it. And think how far we are from 2020, you know, think 2022, where Visma, oh, wow, they're pulling, they're pulling these tricks. UAE doesn't know what to do. Like, we are a long way from that. It was jarring watching that today.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they know that man for man, they're stronger. And then also, if you see, okay, Jorgensen, maybe maybe a little bit better than he's, you know he's sick or been sick. He has crashed. Victor, poor Victor, is trying for dear life, but you can see he's on the limit. And then Almiral was, you know, was also coming back from a crash. So that's not really anything that they should be worried about. So why do you think that there was three Visma riders in the breakaway?

[Spencer Martin]

I guess number one, George brought it up on the show stage win. Trying to get a stage win.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, we're not going to win with these guys. It should be except Kusor Piganzoli, who's in the break to win a stage like today.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, that's also jarring that we're talking about. Matteo Jorgensen can't win a mountain stage, but that's where we are.

[Johan Berniel]

No, I mean this Mateo Jorgensen right now, unfortunately, he's not, not at the level that he. We expect him to be, for whatever reason it may be. But Matteo Jurgens is not going to win a mountain stage from a breakaway like this.

[Spencer Martin]

And then the other option would be. They know exactly what you just said. They know those guys aren't good enough climbers right now to make it over the climbs. So maybe get over the first three climbs and try to help. There was a bit of a lull between the third and the fourth categorized climb on the day.

[Johan Berniel]

I.

[Spencer Martin]

That's the only thing I can think of.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Or.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but what, what, what? Okay. I mean, they can. Okay, yeah, they can probably, you know, they can stack up on bottles and then when the pellet, when, when the group of favorites catches them, they can, you know, pour water over Jonas's head and give him a bottle, for example. Yeah. Is that really the purpose of that kind of tactical move? You know, because all the teams, and especially Visma is one of the teams, they have a tremendous amount of stuff on the climbs and on the, on the course. I don't think Jonas has been ever in a situation where he was short on drinks or cooling. I don't think so, no.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, I don't know. Do you have a theory why. I don't really get why they would do it other than to look active and keep the morale up.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, maybe hoping that the break is going to get a lot bigger gap and then they're going to make it over the climbs and then hopefully Jonas could, I mean, it would be far fetched to think that they would think that they can get actually over that last climb and then be of any service in those last six kilometers to the finish. That makes no sense. To me, that was not going to happen.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, this is going to sound a little harsh, but does it remind you a little bit of like, you know, you cut a chicken's head off and then the body will run around sometimes? Well, it's kind of like is this reflexes of it, former visma that we're seeing, like this is something they would have done in the past and maybe they're just like going back to the reflexes that they used to do, but they just don't have the manpower anymore.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know. But anyways, you know, from the moment we saw, basically Niels Pollitz basically on his own controlling that group, Neil spotted did an amazing job today. He was. He pulled that whole first climb. He's probably one of the heaviest guys in the race. No, he's probably not. Doesn't have the weight of Ghana and

[Spencer Martin]

Werner's group, but he probably is the third heaviest guy.

[Johan Berniel]

He's probably up there, you know. Yeah, yeah. So. So, yeah, that was an amazing job. And then, I mean, for me, a guy who really left a big impression on me today in terms of his personal performance was Felix Gross Hartner. That guy did an amazing job today by himself, bringing that gap down to basically, I mean, at the bottom of the last climb, the remainder of the break, which were four riders then I think was Carapace and Johanneson Paripantre and Rubio, they were down to a minute. That's. And that's just the job of one rider, Phoenix.

[Spencer Martin]

And those are strong guys. I think Carapaz is a really strong rider. And I, I have on my notes that it. He got dropped off, basically 28k to go. They're like, all right, Felix, you're on the front. And then he's got a pullback. Strong guys. Strong, motivated guys. And get the gap down to a minute by the base of the final climb. What did you think of Decathlon coming to the front on the final climb?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, that was interesting, Spencer. I mean, it's. It's like, you know, we, of course, uae they had a plan. The plan was that Bogacha would attack on the last climb and take time and win the stage. But then, you know, you still have to see how the teammates respond. Right. We had Groschartner, then I think after Groschartner, it was supposed to be Brandon McNulty who did a little bit of pacing. But then Decathlon came to the front. They eliminated Magnolty And Yates. And Yates couldn't even come to the front. Yeah. So listen, it was still great for. It's great for Pogachar. And then. And then Sepko started the pace first, I think, because first I think. Who was. Was it Lipowitz and Sexas who went a little bit ahead and then really

[Spencer Martin]

went deep to pull him back in?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I did a great job. Did a great job. And then Jonas surprisingly takes over and starts to write really fast. And that was a surprise for me to see. You know, I mean, if you're in second position and you want to try to challenge the leader, you're not going to pace for him.

[Hiker 2]

No.

[Spencer Martin]

I thought Jos was going to start dumping a bottle over Pugachar, give him some food. It looked like he was his teammate. It was really strange, you know, I

[Johan Berniel]

mean, the only explanation I can find, Spencer, is for both Visma and. And Jonas and even decathlon, you know, obviously we see, listen, hats off for Vingegaard. He took responsibility. Should he have done it? In my opinion, no. You know, but to me, it's a sign. Is it a sign that he's trying to eliminate potential rivals for the podium?

[Spencer Martin]

It's kind of what I thought at the time, probably.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, that's not definitely the move. That's not definitely not a move with the intention to win the Tour de France under these circumstances. You know, I think what's happening, Spencer, is very simple. You know, what we see on the screen is that. That, you know, nobody can touch Bogachar. We see that now. These riders, they see it and they feel it and they know it. You know, in their mind, there is no question that Pogacar is beatable, including Visma and including Jonas Wengegaard. They will say otherwise, but whatever they say, you know, the riders know very good what the difference is in strength. And so, you know, Jonas is, in my opinion, racing for second. You know, he's. Today, for example, he knows that he's probably the strongest climber of the rest of the riders. I think. I think he showed that today also. He set the pace. And then after setting the pace for quite a long time, including on that little, like, easier part in the middle of the climb, which is huge disadvantage for the guy who's pulling and great advantage for the guy who's in the wheel, then we get to the steepest climb, pull out our attacks. I think with 1 1/2 K to go. And who's the second guy on his own is still Jonas Vingelgaard. So to me, that shows that he is the strongest rider of all the other riders. After what he has done today, maybe in the end he's only fourth in the stage, but I just think it's trying to make sure that you're going to be second. It's the only thing I can think of. Otherwise, it makes no sense. It makes no sense. Unless you also want to say, okay, I don't like these accelerations. I'm just going to pace, and that's my fastest way to get to the front. Pogachar couldn't care less. First of all, he was three and a half minutes ahead already, and whatever. He didn't need to take time. And on top of that, for Pogacci, if it slows down a bit, he has that acceleration that Jonas, for the moment, doesn't seem to have. It seems to me like he and his team probably has figured out that the best way for Jonas to get as fast as possible to the top is to ride his own pace.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Well, so. But okay, let's say he wants to get second. He actually went the wrong direction because now he's lost time on guys that could get second.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay. Did he have to do anything?

[Spencer Martin]

He lost, well, 12 seconds to Del Toro. Like, that's not. That's been chatter.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think he. I don't think he sees Del Toro as a rival for second place.

[Spencer Martin]

He should see Paul. Six hours as a rival and he lost. It's like, unnecessarily. Yeah, unnecessarily lost the time. That's what drives me nuts. It's like, I don't understand why he did any of that.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, me neither. I mean, I was. I was really surprised to see him, you know, go to the front and then start to set a pace. And actually, it must have been a hard pace because guys like Remco and even Del Toro was struggling in the back, and now you saw. Was struggling, you know, and all the. All the other guys, like, you know, Skelmosa got dropped. Lenny Martinez got dropped. Those are good climbers. They got dropped when Jonas was spacing, and so must have been really hard. But then if you look at. I mean, it was funny. I was listening to Eurosport and one of the commentators. I switched languages depending on who's talking, but one of the commentators on Eurosports had this marvelous vision all of a sudden. He had seen a grimace on Tadeh Pogachar's face while he was sitting at the wheel and said, dude, I mean, come on, don't you see his demeanor? The guy's just freaking, like, you know, he was on the radio. You know, he was rubbing his nose, like, cleaning his hands on his shoulder, taking a bottle. No, he was not on the list.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And at this point, even if he was on the limit, the limit would be not losing time. Like that's got chart. Not. Not in great shape because he's so much better than those guys.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. I also was surprised to hear some comments of commentators who said, yeah, you know, Pugacha was not dominant today. You know, he didn't take as much time as we thought. You know, we didn't see a. We saw a good pugach, not a great pogacha. I said, which race have you been watching? The guy attacked with 1 1/2 K from the top, and he takes almost a minute on his closest rival. It's like at the finish, right?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

The net gain was 50, 54 seconds. No.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. And he pulled out.

[Johan Berniel]

So time.

[Spencer Martin]

The entire flat run while they were rotating through behind. So if that's not dominant, I don't. I don't know what is.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

I. I hear a lot of that too. Johan is silliness. I don't know what people are thinking.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, you know, he got us. He got us, us some. I mean, he got us used to some really incredible rates where he takes off and just destroys everybody. Everybody. But, you know, today was a relatively short effort. What was it, seven and a half kilometers in total, his effort.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And one of those being the climb, you know?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. One and a half kilometer uphill and then. And then 6K to the finish.

[Spencer Martin]

It was surgical. It wasn't reckless. You waited until he. It was the perfect time to attack. He just wasn't out there throwing caution to the wind, which is smart.

[Johan Berniel]

You know what's also remarkable, Spencer? It's now the third time I'm seeing this with today. It's like he goes and it's like he has everything completely figured out on how fast is he gonna go on that last section? And he takes 10 seconds. And then on the. In the. In the shortest. I mean, in half of the effort, the last half of the effort, he just takes another. It takes the same time as he took with his attack.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

It's not like he stays. Initially, you can say, okay, you know, Jonas is at 10 seconds. Same thing happened on the tourmalet. You know, he just stays there. 10 seconds, 15 seconds. And then all of a sudden, it's like he sees the top and he just Goes in another gear. He was obviously going full gas. I mean, there he was grimacing, you know, I mean, I've seen somewhere that his, his attack was four minutes 37 seconds. And apparently during those four and a half minutes, he did eight, eight. Eight minute eight watts. Point. 8.4 watts per kilo during that attack. You know, after two weeks of racing, that's pretty, pretty, pretty impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

That's like 550 watts for the last five minutes of the climb, basically.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. No, but you know, he, he attacks and he does not stagnate. You know, he has this ability to still, those last 500 meters today of that climb were unbelievable. He went a lot faster than during his attack.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep. Yeah, he like sits down and settles in. But the settles in is a faster pace than the attack and he just.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Torches everybody. It's super impressive. But Johan, it was. I thought it was a cerebral performance. He didn't waste any energy. Waited till the last moment. Also a great physical. Is there anything he could have done to help himself even more physically in this performance?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, I know he's taking ketones. Perfect. Maybe not these ones. I don't know which ones.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, we don't know. We can't confirm.

[Johan Berniel]

We don't know which sponsor the whole peloton is using. Ketones. It's the new fuel source since a couple of years ago. Ketone 8 is our sponsor since the middle of the tour. I think keton8 is actually one of the first companies that brought a real ketone ester to the market. It's not so well known to consumers. There's other brands out there that maybe have a better marketing strategy or invest more in marketing, but it's known by the pros. Personally, I still have a lot of connections in the peloton and when people ask me about ketones, this is what I recommend. It's great to having them finally on the podcast as a sponsor, but this is the real deal. You know, I know they're a paying sponsor now, but, you know, over the last six, seven years I have spoken to riders and to teams and have actually recommended it to teams. They're the official sponsor, for example, of TUDOR Quickstep in this Tour de France and XDS Astana. That's an official partnership they have. But I do know that there are also several other teams and even individual writers who purchase personally ketone 8 because they prefer this product compared to other, some maybe more diluted versions that are out there. It's very sensitive. This is a little bottle. There's 25 grams of ketone pure ketone ester. In here you can just. This has 10 servings, by the way, so you can do quite a bit. So you just take a little sip. Most of the riders use it straight after the finish. I think we've all seen riders straight away after the finish, they just chug down a bottle of ketones because it enhances and helps with their recovery. As I said, it's a real ketone ester. The other stuff, there's dials, there's ketone salts. They don't work as well. For our the Move listeners during this podcast, there's a special action during the Tour de France. Go to ketone8.com and use the code the move at checkout for 15% off. It's a very special offer because until now, Ketone8 has never offered any discounts at all, not even on Black Friday. So ketoneaid.com themove for 15% off or scan the QR code here on the screen.

[Spencer Martin]

Do it. Do it now. The ketone wars are real, Johan. There's teams out there. There's a lot of chatter about what ketones are using, which ones really work. So trust Johannes, usually Spencer.

[Johan Berniel]

It's, you know, the purest ketone esters are the ones that taste the worst. If it tastes too good, it's probably not a ketone ester. It's probably a dilution. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

How do you know you have the right stuff? It tastes like absolute crap. That's how you know it's working.

[Hiker 2]

But.

[Spencer Martin]

So the wind gives Picachar the win that I think we both agree is pretty impressive. We loved it. His fourth win of this tour, 25th win ever. So as we said in our Ventum trivia the other day, he's now 10 away from the record. How many wins do you think Tede Pugachar is going to get at this Tour de France? He has four.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, I know a few days ago I said five, so I'm going to have to change that.

[Spencer Martin]

I think in 24 hours it's going to be five.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also, Spencer, this is actually, I have a little stat here also, which I saw, I think, on Velocity. So Today it's his 125th victory as a professional rider. It seems like yesterday that we were celebrating his 100th victory in the Tour de France.

[Spencer Martin]

It might have been a couple months ago.

[Johan Berniel]

I think it was last year. No, it was last year in the Tour. I think last year in the Tour, I think he won his 100th victory. I don't know if it was in the yellow jersey or in the rainbows. I don't remember that, but I. Last year was his 100th victory and he's.

[Spencer Martin]

You know what's shocking about that?

[Johan Berniel]

135 since.

[Spencer Martin]

Since the moment you're describing, he's probably raced 40 days, so he's wrecked up.

[Johan Berniel]

He's 125. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he has done Spencer. So he has 125 victories as a pro, and his total race days as a pro is 406.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, my God. And that.

[Johan Berniel]

So that is. That's ridiculous. That rate, that winning rate is crazy. I mean, knowing how many times, how easy it is in cycling to not win, mostly most of the time you

[Spencer Martin]

don't win and a lot of the times you're not even trying to win. You know, there's multiple stages of this race where he's just trying to get through without crashing.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. And he's.

[Spencer Martin]

That's 31 win rate, by the way. I've never seen anything like that. That's crazy.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, that's. That's unbelievable.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that is unbelievable. I think there's 170 people in every stage at least. You know, I think that's how many people are left. And so what are your odds of winning a stage? Not great. It's very hard to. So do you know, yesterday, Marshmid, great writer. We love Marshmid. We're at Martin Schmidt Positive podcast. He is the worst ranked writer in the UCI writer rankings to win a stage of this Tour de France. And he is a very good writer and he makes a lot of money, you know.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Like, you have to be very good to win stages.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Hiker 2]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Now to win stage of the Tour, you need. I mean. Yeah, you need to be really, really good. I mean, look at these speeds. Also going back to yesterday, like a half mountain stage, 2,400 meters elevation, 50k an hour. I mean, what the hell?

[Spencer Martin]

What the hell? Well, the last before Today, the last three stages were each in the top 10 fastest stages of all time in the Tour.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

They still have also found a stat today that they are only half done with the climbing at the Tour de France despite only a week left.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. That's crazy. So one week left. So there's seven stages left and they still have half of the vertical meters to do. Wow, that's crazy.

[Spencer Martin]

I think it's the hardest third week I've ever seen. It's unbelievable.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. I mean, you know It's. I wonder if it's a good thing. You know, it's. I think this tour has been designed with a purpose, obviously, to avoid the World cup football, which, you know, finishes tomorrow, and then have these spectacular stages at the end. But, you know, what are we going to see in these really hard stages?

[Spencer Martin]

Because it's not going to be great. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Have in mind that after week two, there are 20 riders in the peloton who could still race for the victory. And you have 160 riders who are dead. Dead. They're just dragging themselves to Paris. That's their goal. So how much spectacle are we going to see if these stages are so hard? That's a bit my concern. Yep.

[Spencer Martin]

I agree. I have the same concern. Wait, did you answer the question? So he's going to have. Let's say he has five at the end of the day. Five going into the second rest day.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, how many does he win tomorrow? Right. But I suspect he's going to win.

[Hiker 2]

So

[Johan Berniel]

it's going to be seven. No, seven stages.

[Spencer Martin]

Seven. One shy of the record.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Crazy.

[Hiker 1]

Crazy.

[Johan Berniel]

So it's Eddie Merckx and Freddy Martins.

[Spencer Martin]

No.

[Johan Berniel]

Who have the most wins with eight.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And Merckx did it twice.

[Johan Berniel]

And did he never win eight stages?

[Spencer Martin]

Well, hold on a second.

[Johan Berniel]

Could be.

[Spencer Martin]

Could be. He might have won eight. I mean, there was a. I think he did win eight stages, so, I

[Johan Berniel]

mean, he was super dominant. I don't know how many, but I don't know if it's true or not, but. And then I'm gonna guess that in the really early days, there's guys who won more stages because probably always the same guy who won the hardest stages.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, true. Yeah. Like, those are all. They'll be like, oh, there was 18 stages and one guy won 17.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, Spencer, you know that the first. The first Tour de France ever, you could. It was impossible to win eight stages because there were only five stages.

[Spencer Martin]

They were probably all 1,000 kilometers long, though.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Like 5, 600 kilometers per stage.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Johan Berniel]

Jeez. It was really amazing. If you look at the map of the first Tour de France, it was the Tour de France. So basically they started and they did the Tour of France. Like just on the border. They just went around the border.

[Spencer Martin]

That is wild. Well, yeah. Let's take a quick ad break. And then I have a question for you. I have two questions for you. And then we have a listener question. And then we'll do the preview for tomorrow stage. We'll be right back, though.

[Hiker 1]

Awkward. Time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?

[Hiker 2]

Yeah. No, I don't need to.

[Johan Berniel]

I. I don't understand.

[Hiker 1]

You're trusting your signal out here.

[Hiker 2]

I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network. And if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup. Whoa.

[Hiker 1]

I don't trust my carrier that much.

[Hiker 2]

We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

With America's Best network and T Satellite, we're keeping you connected in places you never thought possible. And if you switch today, you get free phones for zero down and only 25 bucks a month per line for four lines. Find out more@t mobile.com or visit your local store.

[T-Mobile Legal/Disclaimer Voice]

Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Ooklev Speed test intelligence data 2h 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers with autopay plus taxes, fees and $35 connection charge per line credits and imbalance too. If you pay off earlier, cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement example $299.99 Moto H5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Included with experience beyond or $10 a month. However, news monthly cancel anytime visit t

[Hiker 1]

mobile.com awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?

[Hiker 2]

Yeah. No, I don't need to.

[Spencer Martin]

I. I don't understand.

[Hiker 1]

You're trusting your signal out here.

[Hiker 2]

I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network. And if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup. Whoa.

[Hiker 1]

I don't trust my carrier that much.

[Hiker 2]

We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

With America's Best network and T Satellite, we're keeping you connected in places you never thought possible. And if you switch today, you get free phones for zero down and only 25 bucks a month per line for four lines. Find out more@t mobile.com or visit your local store.

[T-Mobile Legal/Disclaimer Voice]

Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Ooklab Speed Test intelligence data to H 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers with auto pay taxes, fees and 35 connection charge per line credits and imbalance to if you pay off earlier, cancel contact US Finance Agreement example 299.99 Moto Edge 5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Included with experience between under $10 a month. However, news monthly cancel anytime visit t

[Spencer Martin]

mobile.com everybody this episode is brought to you by Lagoon Sleep. Everyone is obsessed with buying speed, expensive wheel sets, ultra arrow bikes tested and wind tunnels. And then they sleep on a pillow they've had since college. Come on, that's absurd. And the thing about endurance athletes is they understand compounding better than anyone. You don't get fitter from from one ride, you get fitter from consistent training over time. Sleep works exactly the same way. One bad night is not the problem. A training block where you're chronically under recovering is. And that starts with what your head is on for eight hours a night or more. Lagoon is a small company built by athletes for athletes. A former Olympic trial swimmer who tested over 60 pillows and couldn't find one built with recovery in mind, so he built it himself. All you have to do to get yours is you start a two minute quiz with a two minute quiz that matches you to the right pillow for your sleep position and body type. It has fully adjustable fill so you can dial in the exact height and support you need. The result? You're going to fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer and start training days feeling better. And the data on this is real. Athletes sleeping under seven hours a night are 50% more likely to get injured mid block. That's not a small number. And I've been loving my Lagoon sleep up here in Aspen in a in a hotel in a strange bed. I'm not might not sleep as well, but I have my Lagoon Sleep pillow and I took the quiz. They matched me with the otter and as a hot sleeper I love its temperature regulating gel memory foam. Since switching I've noticed waking up more refreshed and then it's easier to jump out of bed at 4:30am to catch the start of these stages. And just think about the riders at the tour right now racing all day day after day and then being expected to show up and follow Tada's crazy pace. And next for them, recovery is not a nice to have. It's a critical piece of their arsenal and they could use a Lagoon as well. So get yours today. Go to lagoonsleep.com the move and take a two minute quiz. Use code MOVE M O V E for 15 off Lagoon the marginal gain you've been sleeping on. So Johan, my first question for you is should Tom Pickock have gotten in a break today? Was that a good idea?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, I don't think it made a lot of difference. Maybe, I mean maybe he spent a little bit of Energy to get in the break. But once he was in the break, he did not do anything. He had teammates there and then he had Visma. So he's not gone any harder than. I mean, I think it was actually easier because he didn't have to fight for position in that.

[Spencer Martin]

He finishes three and a half minutes down.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think Spencer today, Pitcock paid for his efforts of yesterday. Yeah, he spent a lot yesterday. He paid for it today. Yeah, he's still in the top 10, so. But he's back to where he was. He was intense. Was he in 10th or 11th before this yesterday?

[Spencer Martin]

10th, I think. And now he's in 9th.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, so now. Now he's in 9th, so. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I'll tell you what, though, that's a. It's a competitive top 10. The last half of the top 10 is Florian Lipowitz, Isaac del Toro, Mateus Scalmosa, Tom Pickock, Lenny Martinez, Egan Bernal's 11th, Jordan J. Got's 12th. That's. That's a. That's really tough. That's crazy.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, listen. I mean, if you want to be in the top 10 in the tour de France, you have to be a damn good bike rider.

[Spencer Martin]

Damn good B. So my next question, knowing what we.

[Johan Berniel]

Question for you. Question for you, Spencer. What was my best placing in the Tour de France?

[Spencer Martin]

I think. Oh, my God, this is tough. Well, you were podium at the vault.

[Johan Berniel]

Don't look it up. Don't look it up.

[Spencer Martin]

Podium at the Vuelta. So let's run a little discount here. So let's say what's a podium at the vault equivalent to? Were you seventh at the Tour de France?

[Johan Berniel]

I was seventh. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Seventh. Oh, man. Almost got stumped there. Well, knowing what we know now, who's going to be on the podium of this race overall at the end?

[Johan Berniel]

You know, I mean, that's another thing I want to talk about sports exas. I think we should spend some time on him. I think it's going to be Pogachar and Jonas Wingergaard and Paul six us. I think that's the podium.

[Spencer Martin]

And so right now it's just. It's Pagachar, Jonas Remco, cigs, sauce. So then you would think Remco. Yeah, well, success will come up.

[Johan Berniel]

Success is really. It's incredible. I was skeptical. Still a week to go. But you know what? I was. I had expected him to crack already. Like after 10 days, like, all of a sudden, you know, the race catches up with you and you're this guy that's a special. This is a special guy. So I'm taking back what I. What the criticism and the skepticism and the doubts I had before the Tour. If you're at this level, he showed today after 14 stages. You're not breaking down. You're staying there.

[Spencer Martin]

No, he almost looks like he's getting stronger.

[Johan Berniel]

And he looks fresh and happy and upbeat after the stage. Is now in the white jersey, by the way, only by three seconds. But he's the youngest rider in the race and has the white jersey. And today, you know, when it really mattered, you had Pogachar up front, then you had Jonas, and then he was the guy who dropped all these other guys and caught up first to Jonas Wingegard on that climb. And then later, just a little bit after the downhill, I mean, after the top of the climb, del Toro came back. But, yeah, I think Cek SaaS is definitely. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Two years younger than. Than the next youngest rider at the race.

[Johan Berniel]

Who's the next rider?

[Spencer Martin]

Actually, don't know off the top of my head. I mean, there'd be 21.

[Johan Berniel]

Is it going to be Vlad von Mechelin, the guy who got relegated? The Belgian guy? He's young rider from Leuven, that guy.

[Spencer Martin]

Let's see.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, start list. Hold on. We're going to figure this out. So wait, youngest to oldest, please. Okay. Nope. Robbie. It's another Belgian, Robbie Daunt.

[Johan Berniel]

Robert, don't. Robert, don't. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

On Picnic Post Nl.

[Johan Berniel]

But is he still in the race?

[Spencer Martin]

He finished today.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay. Okay, and how old is he? 22.

[Spencer Martin]

Then he's like 20 days older than Robbie.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, so he's 20 also? 21.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, 22. Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

And. Well, Paul, six oz is an old 19. If we're ever splitting hairs here. He's.

[Johan Berniel]

He's coming up on that. No.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, like in a man.

[Johan Berniel]

He's getting old. He's getting old.

[Spencer Martin]

Is he washed up is the question I was going to ask him.

[Johan Berniel]

I'm really impressed with the way he's handling everything. You know, it's. And I think. I think decathlon, they're actually doing a pretty good job by protecting him. You know, he's not. He's not much in the media. Like, nothing to compare to what I expected.

[Spencer Martin]

I kind of forget he's here at times.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. You know, he's been racing very smart. You know, he hasn't done one thing wrong for the moment, which is incredible. I mean, obviously now, you know, he's. That he's. He's getting. I mean, the people. The French are going to go Crazy. But it seems to me like he is being dealing with it really, really in a very mature way, you know?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And the roots kind of help going on.

[Johan Berniel]

There's this debate going on. Spencer, I want to know your opinion. So there's this debate going on about Paul success and his future. You know, he has a contract for. With decathlon through 2027. Then his agent has been on the record that there's a lot of interest in offers and there's been rumors that UAE would be interested. Then there's this reported offer of 13 million euros of Pinarello Q36.5. I don't think that's true. I think that's. I'm going to do my little Trump, my daily Trump. Like fake news, fake news. I think that's fake news. But, you know, what do you think he should do? Should he go to another team? Should he stay at decathlon? What do you think he should do?

[Spencer Martin]

No, I'm kind of biased here, but on that 13 million figure, you know what's going on here and I've poked around about this agents. We'll just leak that. Yeah. So then it sets a fake market value. You know, you really should take. Same thing with Oscar Onley. That was a fake number that was recorded and they do it to increase the price for other people. So, yeah, I. This might be controversial. I think he should stay. I don't know why he would go to another team.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, he should definitely stay. He should definitely stay. And he should use the. I would say probably also like pretty much unlimited resources of that team, you know, to build everything around him. You know, Decathlon is a huge company. The second sponsor, what is it? Cmn, cgm. That's like Decathlon times five.

[Spencer Martin]

It's one of the biggest companies in the world.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think he should stay and obviously negotiate the contract, but they should listen. Going to uae, in my opinion, makes zero sense. Zero sense.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't understand it.

[Johan Berniel]

There's only one way I could see him go to UAE is if Isaac del Toro leaves and then, you know, be in the shadow of Pugachar and then take over from Pugachar with that

[Spencer Martin]

eight years older than him. Yeah, maybe that could work. Maybe. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

But anyway, Pogachar apparently has reportedly has a deal until 2030 and he said already several times that he's. He intends to finish that contract. So, you know, but definitely not go to uae. He needs to stay long, man.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't understand. I heard a rumor from. From a rumor monger. Someone who does this professionally. And they said, deal. This deal's done. He's already signed with uae. No, but if you think about it, well, how does that make any sense? And he's not a dumb guy. Like he wants to go to the Tour as a leader next year.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I think especially Spencer, especially in the case of Paul Texas, a French guy, you know, it would be any other talent, huge talent, another nationality, you could say, you know what? I'm going to this team, I'm going to sit out the Tour. They're going to teach me in the Vuelta or the gir. I'm going to have the whole team around me. I'm going to have other opportunities. Like he's also this. It's only the Tour. He can only go to the Tour from now on. You know, I know before we said, okay, he should do the Vuelta this or that. He's showing now that we were all wrong. I mean, still a week to go to Paris, but I don't expect him to crack now. And even if he's not on the podium, even if he's top five, it's amazing.

[Spencer Martin]

It's arguably more impressive than Pugachar winning what he's doing right now. It's without pressure.

[Johan Berniel]

Was pretty young also, you know, when he won his first Tour, he was

[Spencer Martin]

two years older than him though.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. But it was his second year, probably same thing.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

It's also.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I think we should agree the 2020 tour win was impressive. We're not minimizing that. But think out. Think Pagacha in 2019 was really good, but he wasn't winning that Vuelta, you know, like success. What we're seeing from him at this age, I. Here's. Here's a little thing that I heard today. So Luke Rowe was going to leave decathlon as a sport director. He's now not leaving. He's staying for three years. And you think, well, why.

[Johan Berniel]

What changed? Why was he going to leave? Where was he going to go to Net company in Nails.

[Spencer Martin]

That was the.

[Johan Berniel]

Didn't want to stay. He left there.

[Spencer Martin]

So if he signed on for three years.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Does he know something that makes that an appealing place to be? That's also a huge. It's a team that has impressed so far. Johan, am I wrong? They were amazing today supporting him.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, they are. I don't. They are there, you know, it's not like, you know, there's always at least two riders with him and then on top of that, they are the ones who are taking the initiative and actually putting the hurt on the favorites, the top eight, nine riders and they have a guy who's. I mean, they had two guys there together with Seiksas. That's all three guys.

[Spencer Martin]

What more are you looking for from it?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And so they can. I mean, and they can still hire a lot of talent and improve, you know, which they. They would probably. They will if Ceyxas stays there.

[Spencer Martin]

So.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think he should stay at. I mean, it's a very important topic in France. I don't know if you saw. Do you see actually that the French president Emmanuel Macron has publicly asked Paul Sixtas to stay with decathlon?

[Spencer Martin]

I did see this, yeah. He doesn't have a great track record of getting involved with this though, was that. I don't know. He got involved with Mbappe, Mbappe stayed, the team was worse and then Mbappe left and the team won. So maybe Macron should just stay out of it. But do you know who the two. There's two GC riders that have attacked Pagacha this race. Do you know who they are?

[Johan Berniel]

Two GC riders who have attacked Pugach.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Or have even just launched any sort of move off the front of a GC group.

[Johan Berniel]

Lipowitz.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Berniel]

Today.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And then someone went with him today. Okay.

[Johan Berniel]

Success. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And those are the only two guys that have done anything in any GC group. So. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I think he's attack. It was not really an attack. It was, you know, a little acceleration and Pogacha was just looking behind because he didn't want to be in second wheel.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, it did blow up Sepkus and then it actually was kind of significant because it blew up Sepkus and for reasons we still don't understand, forced Jonas Vinegar to the front, setting up the Pagacha attack, setting up Vinegar, not getting time bonuses and losing time at the end. I still am blown away by that. But here's a question for you.

[Johan Berniel]

I think though, Spencer, you know, we've been critical about Visma and Jonas. I think actually if you look at Jonas's performance today, like, and you put the end result on the side, I think Jonas is pretty. Going pretty well. That was a really good performance. There's always a difference between the performance and the result. Right. And I think the performance after Jonas Ringgard today, he put his own rhythm. It was really hard on everybody else except Pugachar. And then, you know, he did too much pulling for sure. Makes no sense. He did that. He set that tempo also on that flatter part. And then you would, you would think that when Pogacha attacks, he would blow up at least for a minute. The first minute he did not blow up. You know, he accelerated a bit and his rhythm was the fastest of everybody else. So I, I think, I think Jonas is, is good. He's definitely not on par with Bugachar and he knows it and I think that's why he's racing like this.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he looks good on the climb, but you don't want to lose time to people if you want to stop before.

[Johan Berniel]

Look who comes to say hi. Bobby's here. Bobby is? Yeah, he's asking my attention. So he comes to say hi to all our, to our viewers. Viewers love Bobby.

[Spencer Martin]

So we have a question.

[Johan Berniel]

Are you going to stay here till the end of the podcast or what should I do? Okay, he's going to stay. All right.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay. Question for Bobby from Leanne then. I didn't write this question. This is going to sound like I wrote it. Question for Johan. At what point are we going to accept that Remco shouldn't be going for GC and Grand Tours? He did win a volta, but the vast majority of his success has been in one day races. Every year is weight yo yos as he prepares for the Grand Tours. But shouldn't he just put his weight back on and race classics and cobbles? That's where he's always been the most successful. Every year he loses weight to transform into a GC rider and it just doesn't work. Kind of a relevant question in light of the extremely confusing performances we've seen from him on both these mountain stages where he's out of it, then he's back in it to it.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. Now listen, we've said it already a few times. Remco. The difference with Remco this year is that he's fighting. He keeps fighting. He does not, you know, we've seen sometimes like in the past, you know, he got, got a difficult day, got dropped and it's like, you know, he gave up in his head. We've seen that several times. That doesn't happen. Doesn't happen. He's super confident in his abilities and no, I don't think he should give up on gc. Let's not forget that he's. Let's, let's have a look at the top 10, right, of this, of this Tour de France. Remco has won a Grand Tour and he's been podium in the Tour de France. How many riders except Jonas Vingegaard can say the same Thing in the top 10. How many?

[Spencer Martin]

I guess Tade.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, okay. I mean we're not going to talk about that. I mean, okay today but.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, he's never won the Volta, you know. So is Rinko better than Tade? We have to ask the question.

[Johan Berniel]

How many, how many riders except Bogachar and Jonas Wingergaard have a podium at the Tour de France and a win in another Grand Tour?

[Spencer Martin]

I mean the only other rider that would be close is Lipowitz, but he's missing the win in a Grand Tour part.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean there's one rider, I mean how many rider in this. There's one rider in Carapace. It's Carapace. Yeah, but other than that there's nobody. Well, I mean then there's Jay Hindley, right? Jay Hindley has won the Giro and he's been second and third in the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Second and third. Yeah, he's won it. Never been podium at a Tour though.

[Johan Berniel]

No, he's never been podium at Tour. That's correct.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is pretty elite company. Here's the question, Here's a follow up question, Johan.

[Johan Berniel]

But, but, but in terms of Remco, I think, I think Remco is going to keep fighting, you know, and Remco has figured out that even on really hard stages when he obviously his, his goal is the podium. Right. He knows he won't win the Tour and he probably also knows he won't be second. So for the moment he's in third place. We've had a few hard mountain stages already. We didn't have the time trial yet where he will take time on everybody.

[Spencer Martin]

I think, I mean Paul, six pretty good time trials.

[Johan Berniel]

He's not going to beat Remco in the time trial.

[Spencer Martin]

I know, but if Remco's bank. Can't bank on taking a ton of time back.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

On a guy.

[Johan Berniel]

But no, I mean, I'm not saying. I mean he probably, I mean most likely the podium will be not Remco, but he, he, he's trying to. And so can you be top five in the Tour? I think he can be top five,

[Spencer Martin]

but so here's, here's the follow up. So. Yeah, I think so too. Let's say fifth, fourth. Great, great place, right? Yeah. Is Remco want to continue to fight for top five in the Tour? Is that interesting to him personally?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, no, but he can win another Grand Tour and he can, I mean it's. You can combine, you know. I mean, I think, I think also at Red Bull they have to Follow this path, at least initially. I mean, he's come. I don't know how long he signed. Three years, probably project work or even a pool. Huge investment.

[Spencer Martin]

Then that brings up another problem. They paid him too much money to get fifth.

[Johan Berniel]

That's probably true.

[Spencer Martin]

That. That's because I agree, like, he's fighting. I think he could fight all the way to Paris and have a great race. But next year, is that going to be motivating of, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna fight as hard as I can.

[Johan Berniel]

But, you know, Spencer, it's also not. I mean, like, I hear people say, you know, okay, yeah, well, you know, why lose the weight? Put the weight back on or, you know, I mean, these guys are not robots. That's not like, on demand. He's obviously trained very hard, you know, tried to be the light. As light as possible, but, man, he's still. He's still super powerful. I mean, if you look the power he is displaying on those stages at the end after having been in trouble, he's lost weight. He doesn't have. He hasn't that much power. You know, he's super explosive. I mean, it's like the sprint he won on. On the other stage today, again in Barcelona, he came back from the back, also was super explosive. So it's not like he's lost weight and lost explosiveness. He's still very explosive.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, well, he's more explosive. You know, it's like, you don't have to be faster than the Bear. You have to be faster than the people you're running with. Away from the Bear.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Of course, he's printing against other guys that have been dropped. He's probably not explosive compared to Pagachar, which is ultimately what's important, or del Toro, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think. I think it's going to be tricky for them because the amount of money they've invested, his personal ambition and expectations. Is fifth place a success? I would say probably not.

[Johan Berniel]

It's not. No, it's not. And Remco will not be happy with fifth place. In his mind, he belongs on the podium, that's for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Is that even enough for Remco, though? Well, I mean, third place, the Tour. Yes.

[Johan Berniel]

Under in this, with these rivals. Yes. He can't beat Jonas, and he cannot beat them unless one of them gets sick and gets injured or whatever. But, you know, he was on the podium already in the Tour de France. Let's not forget that. You Know, we, we, you know, we're, we're often fast to criticize him. He's a hell of a bike rider. You know, He's a hell of a bike rider.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I don't think it's. I don't think the debate should be good or bad bike rider. I think we should say good bike rider. But xyz. But they've spent. What'd you say the transfer fee was?

[Johan Berniel]

7 million.

[Spencer Martin]

That's a lot. You gotta be good.

[Johan Berniel]

Better than. Plus reportedly 6 million euro salary. So that's 13 million in year one. That's crazy.

[Spencer Martin]

That's where it starts to cave. That's where the logic caves in on itself. Where you're like, oh, yeah, no, that's fifth place money.

[Johan Berniel]

That's, that doesn't make me, you know. Then again, you know, you're dealing with these multinational companies, Red Bull, and what do they care? Just give another 5 million. Whatever.

[Hiker 2]

Yeah,

[Spencer Martin]

I would guess there's employees at Red Bull who would say Red Bull's not just handing out five million bucks left and right. Yeah. Ironically, he could probably win the Tour of Flanders if Bogacho ever has a flat tire. Bad luck. Like to me, that almost looks like his. Maybe he was worth the signing just for the classics. I don't know. Because he pretty dang good at the Tour of Flanders this year, but.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, yeah, he needs to go to.

[Hiker 1]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, the problem is for Remco and for most of those talents of this generation is that Bogachar is everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. Every single race. Milan. You go from Milan, San Remo, the Tour of Flanders, to almost winning Paris UBE to winning the Tour de France and dominating. It's. It's, it's just insane to think about this. It's like it's. This is the same as Merckx. Merckx won everything.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, he could crash nobody and then he won't win.

[Johan Berniel]

Right, sorry.

[Spencer Martin]

He could crash at San Remo and then he won't win. Right. Oh, wait, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

That didn't stop him. I'm kidding.

[Spencer Martin]

Didn't matter.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He could get lost. He could get distracted by the ocean. That's the only hope at this point. But the RIMCO quite. It's a sticky. It's a sticky thing. Just because of the transfer fee like that. I mean, yeah, maybe they don't care, but I don't know.

[Johan Berniel]

It's also difficult to justify, Spencer, you know, if you, if you, if it's true. I mean, you know, I, at least I have no reason to believe that it's not true because of who told me this? 13 million euro. Of course the 7 million can spread over three years. But anyways, it's still a lot of money. How can you justify that? This star signing does not participate in the Tour de France and goes to BBC.

[Spencer Martin]

Very good point. That is the point. Actually. It's the same thing with Tom Pincock. He's their flagship rider. He's got to go and he's got to compete at least or be seen to be doing.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, Matthew van der Poel, same thing. You know, Matthew van der Poel doesn't. Doesn't like the Tour. He has to go, but he goes and he wins stages.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. So stage 15. We got to preview this thing. 184 kilometers tomorrow. Stage Sunday Final Stage before the second rest day, there are four categorized climbs. A cat 3, a cat 1, a cat 3 and then an H2 climb. Absolutely brutal finish. We did this. Final stage of the Doan won by Isaac del Toro. Johan, if you want to bet on it, you can go to nxtbets.com BET outcomes and it will show you exactly how to bet, where to bet. You can chop the lines, which is key. The favorites for the stage, not as juicy as yesterday. People are on to us. Tatya Pagachar minus 200 for the stage. Richard Carapaz plus 500. Isaac del Toro plus 1100. Tobias Holland Johansson plus 1400. Time and Armsman plus 4. 3000. Jonas Vinegard plus 3000. Derek G up here, plus 4000. Who do you think is going to win this stage?

[Johan Berniel]

I think Pogach again.

[Spencer Martin]

I think so.

[Johan Berniel]

It's a straightforward stage. It's super hard. This climb is incredibly hard. It's. I mean, I'm not going to. Maybe the turmoil is probably harder, but still it's. I don't know if the turmoil is harder, actually. It's longer.

[Spencer Martin]

I think this is harder than the

[Johan Berniel]

Tourmaline, but this is average. Yeah. Nah. Boba Charge winning.

[Spencer Martin]

This might be the hardest climb they do at this tour.

[Johan Berniel]

And you know, I mean, we could see the same thing as we saw today. You know, the UAE keeps it close. Then when we get to the bottom of the last climb, we see Decathlon and Visma trying to get rid of Ayuso and Remco and Lipowitz. And then pulachar attacks the 2k to go short after another minute. Another minute in the back.

[Spencer Martin]

This is. This and Alpe DZ are probably the most straightforward here. I'm trying to bet. I'm trying to get my money in on him before people hear this. But this and Alpe d' Hus are probably the two most straightforward summit finishes we have. I have a hard time seeing how he doesn't win. I think probably minus two, I think Spencer.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, if you look at the toughness of. And the difficulty of this climb, I think plateau, the. What is called Plateau de Soleil. So I think it's harder than Albuques.

[Spencer Martin]

It's a full like percentage point steeper, you know, and it's optimal.

[Johan Berniel]

It's, you know, if I remember correctly, what I saw in the Dauphine, it's like it's constantly. I mean, there's no, like, up the west, it's obviously hard, but up the west is different. You know, you have the switchbacks. The, the, the switchbacks are flatter. You can get speed, you can get. Have you ever ridden off the west?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, and it's like, it's odd because it is flat corner, flat switch.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, the corners are flattish. You know, you can come up. Back up to speed. So obviously that brings with it that the speeds are of the west are incredibly high compared to another 11 kilometer climb which is constantly up. But yeah, I think this climb is actually harder than all the West.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. I was trying to tell the guys that they've never seen this climb because they don't watch the Dauphine. But it's really hard. I think Picacho is probably going to win and extend his G. Who do you think who comes in second on the day?

[Johan Berniel]

On this climb? I think Jonas and Cexas come together.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay, same time. Second and third on the day. There's your podium for the day.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And are you ready to do Ventum Trivia?

[Johan Berniel]

Yep. Let's go.

[Spencer Martin]

So the question yesterday was who was the. So there was an artist, Frederick August Bartoli, who did the giant lion statue we saw outside of Belfort. What other statue did they construct? There's stuff going on here. Very distracting. What other statue did they construct that's very famous. What other landmark? Do you have an answer?

[Johan Berniel]

I know the answer is the Statute of Liberty.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. The Statue of Liberty. Yes. And if you thought, wow, that's easy, I could have answered that. Go to ventumracing.com themove to enter your answer and it will enter you to win a free. Not a free. I guess you get $5,000 toward an NS1 or GS1 of your choice. And if you're there, you can shop with the move. 10 for 10% off either an NS1, GS1, TT bike, triathlon, bike, E bike if you'd like. I would highly recommend the E bike while you're there. And today's question is stage 14 crosses the balloon. Actually stage 13 and 14 crossed the Bolognese Alsace, a category one climb credited as the first major mountain climbed in the Tour's history. What year did it earn that distinction again? Go to ventumracing.com the move to enter the answer to be entered to win a free bike. Do you know? Don't answer. Johan, do you know the answer?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't. I don't know. But I'm. I'm actually not. I mean, since I said that initially, the Tour was just. Just around France though. They haven't gone. They didn't pass any mountain. Mountain regions. They just went around the border. So must have been in the early. In the early years, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And the unusual thing about this is it's a mountain on the border with Germany or close to it. So they would have crossed it. I didn't know this. It was way earlier than I thought it was actually. That's your hint. Pre Tourmaline. But anything else, Johan, before we take off.

[Johan Berniel]

That's it. I think we. We saw a nice stage and tomorrow is much harder than today, actually.

[T-Mobile Legal/Disclaimer Voice]

I know.

[Spencer Martin]

And today was not easy. It was not easy at all.

[Johan Berniel]

It was not easy at all. No, we.

[Spencer Martin]

We haven't talked about it, I think at all, this Tour, but also tomorrow. But today was low altitude. Tomorrow is lowish altitude as well, which is good. Good for yacht.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

It's not the. So I think. I don't think that I say which

[Johan Berniel]

is good for Pugach.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. I just tend to think like these. It's like steep pitches at low altitude. For someone that produces a lot of power and is a little bit heavier, that like to climb is good.

[Johan Berniel]

Are you hinting that he's not good at high altitude?

[Spencer Martin]

No, the others. I would say the others are more disadvantaged at low altitude climbs and high altitude altitude lines. Things tend to get evened out when the altitude gets higher.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, if I'm going to say conservatively. Conservatively tomorrow he's going to happen, before going to the high altitude mountains, he's going to have a lead of five and a half minutes.

[Spencer Martin]

So. So it's four and a half right now. I think that's right.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He puts a minute into them whenever he wants.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Five and a half minutes. And then he can. He only has to win one or two more stages in the high.

[Johan Berniel]

He just needs to follow Jonas. That's it.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. So this is at tops out at 1500 meters, average at 9%. You come couldn't come up with a more perfect Pagacha climb. This thing's gonna be, I would guess a bloodbath. Well, we'll be back. We'll be back to talk about it after the stage tomorrow and then we will not not be back on the rest day. So we'll be back tomorrow right after the the mood to talk about it.

[T-Mobile Legal/Disclaimer Voice]

Okay.

[Johan Berniel]

Thanks, Spencer.

[Spencer Martin]

All right.

[Johan Berniel]

Bye, Johan.

[Hiker 1]

Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?

[Hiker 2]

Yeah. No, I don't need to.

[Spencer Martin]

I. I don't understand.

[Hiker 1]

You're trusting your signal out here?

[Hiker 2]

I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network. And if we end up in bum tots nowhere, well, we've got T satellite for backup.

[Hiker 1]

Whoa, I don't trust my carrier that much.

[Hiker 2]

We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

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[T-Mobile Legal/Disclaimer Voice]

Best mobile network Based on analysis by Ooglev Speed Test Intelligence Data to a 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and four eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers with autopay plus taxes, fees and $35 connection charge per line credits. And in balance too if you pay off Earlier Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement example $299.99 Moto Edge 5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky included with experience beyond your $10 a month however, news monthly cancel anytime visit t mobile.com My

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