Is Jonas Vingegaard Targeting the Giro/Tour Double a Mistake? | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE Podcast Summary

Episode: Is Jonas Vingegaard Targeting the Giro/Tour Double a Mistake? | THEMOVE+

Host: Spencer Martin
Guest: Johan Bruyneel
Air Date: January 16, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode focuses on Jonas Vingegaard’s ambitious aim to race both the Giro d’Italia and the Tour de France in 2026, with hosts Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel breaking down the logic and potential risks behind the decision. They cover big headlines from Visma–Lease a Bike’s media day—including Matteo Jorgenson’s revised calendar, Wout van Aert’s fast recovery from injury, and how the team's support philosophy may shift. The crew also discusses peculiar tactics at the Australian National Championships, the evolving economics of pro cycling, and their personal mileage challenge. Throughout, they combine inside perspective, tactical analysis, and humor for a comprehensive look at the state of elite cycling.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS

1. Jonas Vingegaard’s Giro/Tour Double Ambition

Announcement and Rationale

• Vingegaard confirmed at Visma–Lease a Bike’s Costa Blanca training camp that he intends to tackle both the Giro d’Italia and the Tour de France in 2026.
• Johan Bruyneel (04:44):

  "He is the second best stage racer in the world. There's no doubt about that. Today is going full gas for the Tour... If you have the opportunity to win all three Grand Tours and you can finish your career saying, hey, I'm one of the very few who have won all three Grand Tours... that's pretty big."

• The move is seen as a way for Vingegaard to diversify his Grand Tour wins and potentially cement his legacy among the few riders who've won all three.

Risks and Tactics

• The physical and psychological challenge of targeting two consecutive Grand Tours has traditionally been considered risky.
• Bruyneel (10:48):

  "...Back in the days... if they do the Giro, they're not going to be 100% at the Tour. That's gone. That doesn't exist anymore... If Jonas goes to the Giro and wins it, he starts the Tour with almost no pressure."

• The current era’s scientific training and depth of support staff mean the double is less daunting than in previous generations.

The Pogacar Factor

• Both hosts agree Tadej Pogacar is currently the Tour de France favorite.
• Martin (10:23):

  "Jonas is so much better than everybody else that's not Pogacar that he can do the Giro, win the Giro and still be in position to be best of the rest..."

• The implication is that, barring crashes or surprises, Vingegaard is unlikely to beat Pogacar, but puts himself in the best possible position if opportunity arises.

Team Tactics

• There's significant discussion about how to manage the support team for both races, with the realization that some riders, like Sepp Kuss and Jan Tratnik, want to attempt both as well.
• Bruyneel (12:29):

  "These are big engines, but the support team around them... you have to change them, mix them up... they do have a pretty deep team."

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2. Visma–Lease a Bike's 2026 Race Programs

Matteo Jorgenson’s Reshuffled Calendar

• Jorgenson to focus on the Ardennes classics, forgo cobbled races, and enjoy a leadership role in the Tour de France, especially with Simon Yates out.
• Martin (15:11):

  "I like it. I mean, Paris-Nice, he's won twice in a row... but does that accomplish his goals as a rider? ...I think it's important [he targets the Tour]."

• Strategically, Jorgenson’s flexibility gives the team options and increases tactical pressure on rivals.

Cobbled Classics & Young Talent

• Matthew Brennan to take on a major role in the northern classics alongside van Aert, signaling the team’s transition to developing new classics leaders.
• Bruyneel (19:31):

  "Brennan is ready to step up, after the amazing season he had in 2025... now I think he's ready to have responsibility in the team and to have a protected role."

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3. Wout van Aert’s Fast Recovery

Injury and Outlook

• Van Aert sustained a serious ankle fracture at the season’s start, yet returned to road cycling far sooner than expected.
• Bruyneel (23:35):

  "It's a very clean break and a clean surgery also. It's broken, yes, but it's together... he started riding again so quickly... at the media day, he was walking without crutches."

• By Day 11 post-surgery:
  • 144 km ride with 2,800m climbing
  • Broken personal Strava records
  • Next day: 184 km, 3,300m elevation gain

Van Aert’s Mindset

• Bruyneel (24:31):

  "He sounds extremely confident. There's no doubt in his mind that he's going to be full ready for the classics."

Broader Trend

• Discussion opens up on top stars (e.g., Mathieu van der Poel) reducing cross-discipline racing to maximize road performance.

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4. Tactical Breakdown: Australian National Championships

• A controversial finish saw Luke Plapp (Jayco–AlUla) chase down teammate Luke Durbridge, only to be outsprinted by Patrick Eddy, a lesser-known rider from a continental team.
• Bruyneel (37:11):

  "One of the most stupid tactics you can think of... you have a teammate in front, even if Durbridge was dying, you are not the one to instigate that chase unless you are absolutely sure you're gonna blow everybody off your wheel."

• The episode connects Plapp’s miscue to a classic 1982 World Championships team error, highlighting how lack of radio communication and poor racecraft can cost big results.
• Spencer and Johan discuss the psychological barriers some riders face when transitioning from domestic dominance to racing in Europe, particularly around positioning and awareness.

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5. Pro Cycling's Economic Shifts & Media Rights

Richard Plugge’s Comments

• Visma–Lease a Bike’s manager publicly urged the UCI to regulate team budgets, hinting that reforms from the teams themselves (e.g., the "One Cycling" project) are stalling.
• Bruyneel (49:49):

  "Richard Plugge requests the UCI to take initiative and make moves to change the business model of cycling. I can guarantee you that's not going to happen. That is never going to happen."

• The hosts suggest these interviews are strategic PR as top teams try to nudge reforms (or at least protect themselves) amid a ballooning arms race for talent.

US TV Rights

• The Giro d’Italia still lacks a US broadcasting deal weeks before the race—a symptom of the sport’s slow-moving commercial structure.

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6. THEMOVE Mileage Challenge

• Spencer and Johan compare their 2025 Strava totals:
  • Spencer: 12,501 km
  • Johan: 12,804 km (real total, including private rides)
• Wout van Aert also joining in, showing discipline and camaraderie among cycling insiders.

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7. Grand Tour Statistics: How Rare Are Stage Wins?

• 61 Grand Tour stages in 2025 (with 2 cancelled in the Vuelta).
• Only 40 unique winners; just 12 riders won multiple stages.
• Bruyneel (56:17):

  "Winning a stage in a Grand Tour is and has always been extremely difficult... I had the feeling that was like, it could not get any better than this. I had attained the maximum."

• Mads Pedersen won the most as a percentage of available stages (8.2%), ahead of Tadej Pogacar (6.6%), illustrating the rarity and value of success.

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MEMORABLE QUOTES & SEGMENTS

• On Taking Risks in Team Leadership:

  "You have to be there and just try. And then, hey, there's always circumstances...if the big favorite crashes, somebody's gonna win. So it might as well be [you]." — Bruyneel (09:47)

• On Next-Gen Training vs. Past Eras:

  "It's completely changed... Back in the days... they do the Giro, they're not going to be 100% at the Tour. That's gone. That doesn't exist anymore." — Bruyneel (10:48)

• On the Realities of Winning in Cycling:

  "Try to win one first!" — Bruyneel, on teams claiming they're "targeting stages" at Grand Tours (56:08)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 00:51 – The reality of "waiting for the favorite to falter" in modern cycling
• 04:44 – Vingegaard’s decision to target the Giro-Tour double analyzed
• 10:23 – Evaluating the depth of both fields & Vingegaard's place within them
• 12:29 – How teams can support a double Grand Tour attempt
• 17:22 – Jorgenson’s shift to Ardennes and the potential tactical advantage
• 23:35 – Wout van Aert’s fast return from ankle surgery
• 37:11 – Tactical critique of the Australian National Championships finish
• 49:49 – Why structural reform in cycling (from UCI) may never happen
• 56:08 – Grand Tour win statistics: just how rare are stage victories?

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TONE & STYLE

Friendly, lightly irreverent analysis blending insider knowledge with skeptical humor. Both hosts freely offer strong opinions but maintain respect for current riders’ ambitions and achievements.

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LISTENERS' TAKEAWAYS

• Vingegaard’s double is ambitious but timely given his rivals and team support.
• Team structure and psychological resilience often matter as much as raw talent.
• Winning even a single Grand Tour stage is extraordinarily rare and career-defining.
• Cycling’s commercial future remains uncertain, with top team managers voicing the need for economic changes even as progress stalls.
• The cycling landscape for 2026 is shifting, with both established and new names poised for key roles in classics and stage races.

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For cycling fans, this episode encapsulates the complexity, calculated risk, and evolving tactics at the highest level of the sport, presented with the wit and perspective only insiders can deliver.

Transcript

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[Johan Berniel]

There's no guarantee that Pugachar is gonna have every year a clean run without any issues. You know, look, he crashed last year and it could have been a lot worse. And then you need to be in pole position to win. You know, you don't want to win because somebody else crashes, but you know, if the big favorite crashes, somebody's gonna win. So it might as well be. It might as well be.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, I do think Jonas is so much better. I'm sorry, Eunice is so much better than everybody else. That's not Pagatra that he can do the Giro, win the Giro and still be in position to be best of the rest of the team.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think he's going to be top in the, in the Tour. After the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody. Welcome back to the move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are going through. This is our weekly show where we go through the cycling news of the week as well as take a few listener questions. The main things we'll talk about today is Visma Lisa bike's media day which had Jonas fine guard finally confirming his Giro d' Italia Tour de France double ambitions. Matteo Jorgensen's kind of altered schedule for 2026 and wout Bernard with coming back from that broken ankle as well as the Australian national championship to breaking down. What the heck happened there? Richard Plug's re recent comments as well as some interesting numbers about the year, including the final tally for our 2025 kilometer slash mileage challenge on Strava. But before we get into that, Johan, let's take a quick break to hear from today's partner and then we'll get into it, everybody. This episode is brought to you by AG1 I'm going to let you in on a little secret about how I start my day. I come down, it's quiet, nobody's up yet. I reach into the fridge, I have my AG1 powder in my little canister there, scoop it into my beaker, shake it up, drink it. 30 seconds, done. I have taken care of myself and there's no right time for better health. There's just now. That's why AG1 is the easiest and most impactful habit you can implement this year. Sustainable health is about consistency, not perfection. And that's where AG1 is really helpful. You just come up with this, this little ritual every morning and you will be healthier over time because ag 1/20 seconds. 1 Scoop 8 ounces of water, drink it first thing in the morning before coffee, before checking your phone. And that microhabit is going to anchor everything else. And the new next gen formula. They've added more vitamins and minerals than ever. Clinically proven to fill common nutrient G. You don't even have to worry about eating your greens. How wonderful is that? I use it every single day. And you should too. And by the way, AG1 now comes in original citrus berry and Tropical. My favorite is Tropical because I feel like I'm in the tropics. But you can experiment with the flavors. They are all delicious. AG1 has over 5,000 50,000 verified 5 star reviews and comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. Go to drinkag1.com the movement to get their best offer. Get and get that offer. That's three free AG1 travel packs. Three free AGZ travel packs plus a free vitamin D3 plus K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's drink ag1.com the move. Drink ag the number1.com the move. All right, Johan, we, we've been alluding to this and I kind of assumed it was happening in my mind, but Jonas Vinegard announced that at the Costa the, the Visas, I guess their second Costa Blanca training camp of the year already or of the season, that he's officially doing the Girattala and Tour of France. I heard some rumors that, oh, that's why Simon Yates retired. He, he, he heard Jonas was, was targeting the Giro and that put him over the edge. It's like, I don't know if this was a surprise to anybody, including Simon Yates, but I like it because I think they should try to win the 0. It means he'll have won every Grand Tour. That's pretty impressive. Not many people have done that. But what were your thoughts on this announcement?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think it makes sense, Spencer. I mean, you know, he still needs to win it, of course. Right. But I think. Listen, he is the second best stage racer in the world. There's no doubt about that. And today is going full gas for the Tour. Looks like his main rival for the Giro will probably be Joao Almeida, if I'm not mistaken, plus some others. But, you know, he already showed that he can beat Joel Almeida. He did. He did the same in the Vuelta. And this was a Jonas who was, in my opinion, not at his best in the Vuelta. He still managed to win it quite dominantly, I would say. So I think it was pretty close. Well, yeah, no, it's. It's close and not close. Spencer, you know, at the end, the last stage, you know, he just rode away from everybody. Maybe not in time, but was he ever really in trouble, put in trouble by Almeida? The only guy who actually put Jonas Vingard in trouble during the VTA of last year was Thomas Pitcock. He dropped.

[Spencer Martin]

True.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think Almeida was ever able.

[Spencer Martin]

To really drop us at the Almeida fan club would file this piece of evidence with the judge. Probably the. The closest he came to challenging Vin Vinegard. People have been sending me pronunciation guides for Jonas Vinegard. It's not going to get better, people. He put him under a little bit of pressure in the miniature time trial on stage 18. And if that was its usual, the length it was supposed to be, maybe it's closer because of that. That would be what you point to.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. But no, I mean, I think, you know, respect the picking order of the talents in the Grand Tours. Jonas is the best if today is not there. So I think it makes a lot of sense for several reasons. First of all, okay, you know, if. If you have the opportunity to win all three Grand Tours and you can finish your career saying, hey, I'm one of the very few who have won all three Grand Tours. There's not that many. You know, there's Eddie Merckx, there's Chris Froome, there's Bernard Hino, Miguel Indurain. Never won all three, for example.

[Spencer Martin]

What about Finon?

[Johan Berniel]

Finon won the Giro, won the Tour twice. I don't think he won the Vuelta. I don't think so.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I guess you're right. I mean, this is according to AI.

[Johan Berniel]

So there's Contador who won all three. Vincenzo Nibali won all three.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep, yep.

[Johan Berniel]

And then there must be some others.

[Spencer Martin]

Like, there's only three more.

[Johan Berniel]

I3 Eddie Merckx, probably.

[Spencer Martin]

They're very famous. Very famous writers would be your hint.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay. Stephen Roach didn't win all three. He won two. So who is it? Tell me.

[Spencer Martin]

Jacques Ankatil Felice, Germany.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So.

[Spencer Martin]

So that's not very many riders, you.

[Johan Berniel]

Know, I mean, you know, so for Jonas to be. To be in that circle, that's pretty big. It's no guarantee he's gonna win. No, but, you know, if everything goes to plan, they're sending a strong team. The course is decent, I would say, for Jonas. Yeah, I think. I think he's probably going to win the Giro, if ever. If his preparation goes well and then, you know, combining it with the Tour, he's probably not going to race between the Giro and the Tour at all. So I think it's doable. It's. I think maybe. Would it be. I don't know what you think. Would it be mentally already giving up a little bit on the dominance of Pugacha, saying, hey, you know, it's highly unlikely I can win the Tour unless there's circumstances, so I'm going to go for the Giro, and then I'll see what the Tour brings. That would be my takeaway from this decision.

[Spencer Martin]

Maybe. Maybe. But unless I'm misremembering, did Tade Pagachar not go to the Giro and win it while he was not reigning Tour champion? And then he went to the Tour in one when he hadn't won it in two years? So I guess that would prove the opposite. That did that.

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[Spencer Martin]

Give him, like, a springboard to come off of.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't think it's pressure off. I don't think it's the same. I don't think Pugacha was in the same mindset as. Because, man, he's been dominating the Tour and the whole season and the whole world of cycling. So it's. You're up against a cannibal.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, I almost feel like Jonas, should he not. I mean, this is totally loser behavior, loser thoughts. But should he not even try to beat him?

[Johan Berniel]

Just so good that Spencer, you know, I mean, you have to be there. You have to be there and just try. And then, hey, there's always circumstances that there's. There's no guarantee that Bogachar is going to have every year a clean run without any issues. You know, look, he crashed last year, and it could have been a lot worse. And then you need to be in pole position to win. You know, you don't want to win because somebody else crashes. But you know, if the big favorite crashes, somebody's gonna win. So it might as well be. It might as well be.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, I do think Jonas is so much better. Sorry, Eunice is so much better than everybody else. That's not forgotcher. That he can do the Giro, win the Giro and still be in position to be best of the rest of the team.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think he's going to be top in the, in the Tour after the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Plus, I think the science maybe has changed on that. These guys, I think they, it's not going to burn them out like maybe we thought it would.

[Johan Berniel]

It's completely changed back in the days. You would, you would for sure say, hey, you know, okay, they do the Giro, they're not going to be 100 of the tour. That's, that's gone. That doesn't exist anymore. But, but you can also say, look at it in a different way. Like, if Jonas goes to the Giro and wins it, you know, he starts the Tour with almost no pressure, and everything that happens is fine, you know, so it's not like you're at the Tour de France and you have to, you know, fulfill your mission to make up your season, to make your season good. You know, if he's won the Giro already, he has that one in the pocket. He can go to the Tour de France more relaxed, see what happens, and be ready in case day has a bad day or there's a problem or whatever. I, I, I like it. That's. I think it's a great plan. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And even just practically, a guy that's renumerated at the level of Jonas has to do two Grand Tours for that team.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, especially Spencer, because he doesn't race that much after. Yeah, part of, you know, the other races.

[Spencer Martin]

Does he want to go back to the Volta again? I, that could get a little stale after a while. So I, I, I like this. Mix it up. I don't know. Try something else. You know what? You know, it has not worked targeting the Tour specifically. So I don't know, just try something else. See if it works.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

And by that, I mean, clearly it has worked twice, but in the new Pagan. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And so how, let's say you're the team manager, Jonas is doing zero Tour double. How do you manage the support team around this? Because you can't just run back the same support team.

[Johan Berniel]

That's the biggest challenge, you know, so you have these champions like Jonas, like today, like Remco. These are big engines, but the support team around them there's, there's only two or three he can, who can do both. The others, you have to change them. You have to mix them up. They do have a pretty deep team, I would say. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not overly concerned that, that they're, I mean, they're gonna have, they're sending a strong team to the, to the Giro and, and also to the, to the Tour. I, I think Sepkus has already announced. Know that he wants to do both, if not all three again.

[Spencer Martin]

Seb, don't do it. Don't listen to him, Visma. I. Yeah, I mean, he's clearly capable of it, but I do feel like that put him in a hole after he did all three. Yeah, I mean, he'll probably, if he does, I mean, he, I see he's penciled in for the Giro here. He'll probably do the Tour. He probably will do the Volta.

[Johan Berniel]

And also Company Arts has already announced that he does Giro and Tour and forgets about Classics or any personal ambition whatsoever. So that's, that's definitely a good guy to have around.

[Spencer Martin]

And they've signed two Girardetal specialists from small Italian teams. So there you go. Slot those guys. Ready?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. It's Fiorelli, I believe, right? Yeah, whatever.

[Johan Berniel]

Fiorelli. Fiorini.

[Spencer Martin]

I heard they signed him. I heard they signed him because now I could be confusing my Italians. It's either Piganzoli or Fiorelli because they did a data analysis and he crashes less than anyone else in the peloton, which I don't know how you would get that data, but. Yeah, yeah, maybe that's.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know if that's a good stat to sign somebody, though.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Trust me, I, I, I can. I know where to ride, where not to crash. It's called off the back. You're not going to crash.

[Johan Berniel]

Exactly. You're never in the mix.

[Spencer Martin]

That's a good point.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Because you often crash because you're putting yourself in a position to win or to make a difference. But we like it. Yeah, I do, I do hear your concern. That is, is it giving up before the race happens? I don't know if that's going to. I think we're in an era where you might as well try anything because whatever you do probably isn't going to make that much of a difference. Yeah, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

For sure.

[Spencer Martin]

For sure. And another thing that came out of.

[Johan Berniel]

This also has announced his program. Spencer, what do you think?

[Spencer Martin]

So the big highlights are Arden's class The focus is Arden's classics, Tour de France and then presumably World Championships Lombardia later in the year. But no cobbled classics, no parry. Nice. I like it. I like it. I mean, because Perry. Nice. He's won twice in a row. What's he going to do? He's going to go back when the options are win a third, maybe is like. But does that. Is that accomplishing his goals as a writer or. He doesn't win, you know, like, what's left to mine there for him?

[Johan Berniel]

I think, I think it's. I think it's a good decision to not go to Paris.

[Spencer Martin]

Nice.

[Johan Berniel]

Try something else. And I think it also says something about the ambitions, the realistic ambitions of Visma in the Tour de France. You know, they're going with two leaders. They're going with Jonas and Matteo. Matteo is not just a guy who has his goals early on and then is there as a support rider in the Tour. He will have his own chance. And it's a different approach. And it could work. You know, I mean, if you have Matteo Jurgensen, who's, you know, in theory a top five contender, I would say if he's, you know, if he's fit and has no problems, injuries or crashes or illness, you could use that tactically and put, Put UAE under pressure, you know, by. By being aggressive. Okay, it looks nice on paper. It's, you know, on the other hand, if. If UAE is the way they have been and there's no reason to think they won't be, then it doesn't really matter that much. You know, if Jurgensen is a top five threat, you always have to think, okay, he's. Is he really a threat? For Pogachardo, my answer is no. He is a threat, however, for other candidates for the podium or top five, and then these guys will actually help you a. To bring him back. Whenever he's going in a breakaway and tries to put the race under pressure.

[Spencer Martin]

I also really like the idea of him focusing on Amstel gold and Liege. Best on Liege in the spring. I think he could win Amstel gold and if Pagatra has a problem, maybe Liege.

[Johan Berniel]

It's basically. Spencer. It's the whole year, everybody. Anybody can win the races where Pogacha is if Bogacha has a problem.

[Spencer Martin]

Otherwise, I mean, that's where we're at.

[Johan Berniel]

It's.

[Spencer Martin]

It's freaky. It's. It's a weird. It's a weird thought process to go through. He had quotes that he. He thought the longer climbs of the Ardennes would Suit him better than the cobbles. At first I was surprised by that because he's done pretty well in the Cobble Classics. The top five finish at Flanders, he won Dwarves, Dwarves, Dwarf Lander. And not just dwarves, because that would just mean a cross. But. So he's had success. But I do, I do kind of agree with him, like. Well, if you, if we're talking about him as a Grand Tour, a Tour de France top five finisher, it would stand to reason Liege Best on Liege would be a good race.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, for sure, for sure. No, those races fit him perfectly. There's no doubt about it. Maybe, maybe to a lesser extent, Flech Wallone, because that's steep and explosive. So I think Matteo is. Is different. I mean, he will be okay. He will be in the front, but you know, there's probably going to be riders who have a bit more of a punch on that last climb. But, you know, he's still, he's still going to be up there. Top five. But Liege is a great race for Matteo Jorgensen, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I think it's a really good race. I, I like this program. They're mixing it up. They're not just going back to the same thing. I think that's important. Obviously, as you say, for the Tour, him being as good as possible to Tour is key for Visma, especially with Simon Yates out like this. This can be very important. You might ask, well, who's doing the Cobble Classics for Visma? We'll talk about Val Van Art next in a second. He's actually doing pretty well. But Matthew Brennan, the very young British writer who had a great season last year, he's doing Sanremo and then the full Cobbled Classics lineup with Tour Flanders and Perry Roubaix being the big headline of that. And then he's going away to prepare for the Tour of Switzerland. So Brennan's their cobbled guy alongside Van Art, it looks like.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. I think Brennan is ready to step up, you know, after the amazing season he had in 2025. And you know, he's shown where he's. I mean, I looked at his program and there's a lot of races he did like all one day races, all one day races, which, you know, he's incredibly strong. So we'll see how he does now in a more. Would say more protected role. I think 2025 was more of a discovery season to see where he could get. But now I think he's ready to have responsibility in the team and to have a protected role. So I think he's going to be great.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I. I agree. And then let's take a. Let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about Wapinart, how he fits into this visma plan his recovery, which is going a little bit better than I thought it would. When we come back. Hey everybody. This episode is brought to you by Rugiat. Here's something most doctors know that most men never talk about. Stress from work, money and family doesn't just disappear at night. It follows you into the bedroom. You can be lying next to the person you've loved for years and suddenly your mind will not let your body do what it has always done. Naturally. For situations like that, doctors look for treatments that help both the brain and the body. That's where Rui at Ready comes in. Unlike Viagra and Cialis, Ruat Ready is a next generation prescription treatment designed to help prime your brain for arousal and increase blood flow. It combines three clinically proven ingredients in one mint that dissolves under your tongue so it absorbs fast. Most most men are ready in about 15 minutes, so you can stay present, confident and in control when the moment is right. Over 150,000 men have already made the switch to R. Getting started is simple for Rug connects you with a board certified doctor online and your treatment ships directly and discreetly to your door. For a limited time only, head to rugiat.com the move to get 15% off your order. That's Rugiat. R U g I e t.com themove to get 15% off your order everybody. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. So quick Business confession There was a stretch of time where running payroll and handling the paperwork of running a small business ate up my entire afternoons. I'd sit down to do one simple admin task and sudden it was. Two hours later, I was buried in forms and I was not watching or writing about professional cycling. It was a disaster. But everything changed when I moved over to Gusto. Gusto is an online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. In fact, just the other night, my wife was asking me about some issues she was having with the admin for her business. And I said, I'm not even going to try to answer that. But I do have one answer for you. You got to get Gusto. I told her that what I noticed immediately was how much time it saved me. Running payrolls are automatic Taxes are handled, and there are no weird surprise fees, Just unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price and all the stuff that used to be annoying. Offer letters, onboarding, direct deposit. Am I paying my quarterly taxes? How do I do that? Well, with Gusto, it's all baked in right there. The other thing, peace of mind. When you're running a small business, the last thing you want to wonder is if you messed up a form or missed something important. Gusto makes it feel handled. I. I can vouch that you do lose a lot of sleep thinking about that. So try gusto [e-mail] the move and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months [e-mail] the Move. That's G U S T O.com themove check it out now. All right, Johan, Last time we talked, we were a little worried about wout Bernard broke his ankle. Very, like, third day of the year. Not a great way to start the year. Done. Cyclocross season done. We were thinking, wow, that's really not good for his road season. Because even if everything went perfect for him, it's still not easy out there as we're talking about, everyone's going up against Pagachar. There's also Matthew Vanderpoel in the races. Watpinart likes to win. Things were not looking great. Well, a week goes by. He has a week off the bike. Well, he has ankle surgery first. They put pins in there. Has a week off the bike.

[Johan Berniel]

So let's have a look at the pictures here, Spencer. So we have, first of all, the crash, which. Where you can see basically where, you know, the ankle is completely bent. So that looks bad. Then you have this picture that Walt posted on his social media of his swollen ankle straight after the finish in the camper or in the bus. And then the surgery itself. This, you know, there's one screw. It's. It's a very clean break and a clean surgery also. So to me, it looks like it's. It's the. It's a minimal impact. It's broken. Yes. But it's together. It's fixed together. The fact that, you know, he's started writing again so quickly, I think he still has to. I mean, no, I don't think. I'm sure he has to pay attention. He walks with a boot, you know, with. With a protection boot. But you could see him walk on the podium at the media day without crutches. So that's already something. And this was. I think the media day was basically Nine days after the crash. So I'm quite impressed actually with how fast he's back up on his feet, literally. And yeah, we were kind of ringing the alarm bell a little bit last week, but I think right now I'm more optimistic. And especially Spencer, after hearing his interviews with the Belgian media, he sounds extremely confident. There's no doubt in his mind that he's going to be full ready for the classics. So he must feel okay. He said. He actually said that where he feels the best is on the bike. The biggest challenge for him is getting his cycling shoe on his foot.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Which it's good. He's not racing the. Are we sure he's not going to jump in the Benidorm World Cup? He's staying right up the road in La N. He can't run there.

[Johan Berniel]

He can't run.

[Spencer Martin]

But I think this is.

[Johan Berniel]

That would be mad. This. I mean.

[Spencer Martin]

I would stop it. I would fly over there and tackle him before he could start. But he's already logging massive rides with teammates in on the Costa Blanca. So this is not as bad as we thought. Still, obviously a big ask to win these big races against the. The best riders in the world at the peak of their powers. But it means Visma will probably. He'll be available and they will have, along with Matthew Brennan, a really good squad for these races.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Now if you look, Spencer like yesterday. So yesterday was what was 11 days, 12 days after the crash. Right. So let's say 11 days after the surgery. He is. And this was not his first ride, by the way. He did a ride in Belgium. Then he did one ride in. In Spain and this is his second ride in Spain, so his third day on the bike. And. And then that's not counting the days he was on the home trainer probably. So he did 144 kilometers yesterday. 2,800. Almost 3,000 meters of elevation during the ride. So not an easy ride at a decent speed. 31.4km average. I even see that he had. He broke some personal records on that route. I'm. I'm tempted to think that he has been there many times before already in that area. So, you know, I see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 personal records. So this was not a coffee ride, you know. So yeah, I think he's. I think he's fine. I mean, I'm relieved, actually. I was worried last week, but I'm relieved now especially because the demeanor in his interviews and the way he sounded. He looks and sounded quite optimistic.

[Spencer Martin]

I thought you're Gonna say you feel good because he broke my PR to the climb to finish Strat by a full two minutes. Oh, wow. He's right. He might be winning the Tour this year. Unbelievable. But, I mean, these are big rides.

[Johan Berniel]

We need to check how many times World Bernard went up, finished. That's.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. No on that ride.

[Johan Berniel]

No, in total. In total. It may be his first time.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, if it says PR on there, it probably means you've been it. I think you have to do at least two. Well, how many times has he done it? Yeah, that's uploaded it to Strava.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, let's just check. I'm just going to quickly check. So let's see Walt Bernard here. Where he is. Here he is. So let's see his. His right from yesterday. Oh, he wrote today. He just uploaded today. Let's see what he did today. 184 kilometers, 3300 meters of elevation.

[Spencer Martin]

So, yeah, he's essentially missing nothing here. Yeah, this is full preparation. So he's.

[Johan Berniel]

He says 184 kilometers, 3300 meters. Smooth ride.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, this is great to see. Like, he's.

[Johan Berniel]

This is life. This is just. This just came in now. So, you know, so I. I think. I think he's fine, man. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And then the other kind of interesting thing about this is Matthew Vanderpoel skipping the Benidorm World cup, which is notable because it's close to where he lives, and he seems to be unable to lose any cyclocross races because he's focusing on road training. He's doing a road training camp. So are these guys, finally, this is the maturity era of their careers, where they're like, maybe I don't race a bunch of things that are not road cycling. And I focus on one day classics, because that seems to be what Ty Deds Pedersen are doing.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. I think it's also a matter for Mathieu van der Poel. I think it's also a matter of finding the balance now between, you know, he's. He's definitely in great shape. Right. He wants to minimize the risks. He already crashed once in. In Benidorm, and he hit. He hit the post like a light post. I don't ever remember this with his shoulder. So. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not. I'm not reading anything into it other than, you know, he's in Spain now. He wants to just, you know, he wants to get some miles. And he knows that his. His form is good. He knows he's dominant in the cyclocross. Field and yeah, I just. Spencer, just to. I mean I just to lower your enthusiasm a little bit about your time on finished.

[Spencer Martin]

Well then Art did stop to make a cappuccino.

[Johan Berniel]

What was Walt's time again?

[Spencer Martin]

I think he was 11, 14 or something. Okay. So it's.

[Johan Berniel]

This is. I don't think this, this. This must probably have been his. His first. His first time. It's you know, finished is not a climb that people tend to do a lot for pr.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, it's right when you. It's right when you start, you know, rolling out of the hotel and then you go.

[Johan Berniel]

Has the. Has the. I mean at least the best time of the people I'm following. 927. 927.

[Spencer Martin]

The fastest guy I follow is Valverde. Eight minutes. Okay so that's. Look.

[Johan Berniel]

So I have 1027 here. And then I have actually a friend of mine who is I would say probably close to 60. 57, 58. Ricardo Arroyo, friend of mine who rides a lot. 1053.

[Spencer Martin]

So that's smoking. Holy smokes.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's faster than Ranko even a pool. Is he a former Probinson.

[Spencer Martin]

Guy?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, yeah. Means regular guy. I mean. Yeah. I mean he has a job. He's. Yeah, he's in his late 50s, but he rides.

[Spencer Martin]

Did he used to race?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean he's fit. He's super fit. I think he does. I think he has like 10 or 12 or 15. Like these. There's these races. These races in mountain bike in the desert. Titan Desert. The Titan Desert.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

He's like. He's. Yeah, so. So yeah, I mean I just see him here. Ricardo. He's up here. 10:53. Congrats, Ricardo. That's pretty impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

That does deserve a shout out. That's. That's pretty good, man. Wow. I can't wait to be that fit. I can't wait till I get older and I'm that fit.

[Johan Berniel]

And Spencer, the most impressive is where most impressive is. Let me just first see if it's him. Yeah, he did it in October of last year. So not. Not like three, four years ago. He did it now. Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

We'll have. The authorities are going to be visiting him for just a sample. But let's. Let's take another quick break and then we'll talk about the Australian National Championships. The moment I watched this I thought, I can't wait to ask Gohan about this. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Now that the holidays are over, you might be feeling like you've got a big spinning hangover. The drinks, the holiday food, the gifts, it all adds up. Luckily, Mint Mobile is here to help you cut back on overspending on wireless this January with 50 off their unlimited premium wireless plans. I have two phones. One is just for watching professional cycling. On that phone I have Mint Mobile service and you could say that's the most important thing in my life because I have to keep up with the sport every race for this podcast and my newsletter. And with Mint I'm always in service and it is the most affordable option I've shopped it. Trust me, it Mint Mobile. Nothing is cheaper and it is incredible. And Mint Mobile's end of year sale is still going on, but only until the end of January. Cut out big wireless is bloated plans and unnecessary monthly charges with 50 off 3, 6 or 12 months of unlimited. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. And use your own phone on any mobile plan and you can bring your number so you do not have to worry about texting people. New phone who dis you just text them like normal because your number's the same. So this January quit overspending on wireless with 50% off unlimited premium wireless planes start at $15 a month at mintmobile.com the movement that's mintmobile.com themove limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan required taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only over 50 gigs. Data may slow when the network is busy. Capable device is required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. CMTmobile.com for more details.

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[Spencer Martin]

Okay Johan. Australian National Rotaries Championships. This was last weekend. It's always a bit confusing trying to figure out what day it is in Australia, but I was watching this on Sunday. This must have happened in Sunday and Australia as well. Defending champion Luke Durbridge off the front on Jay Coalula. Pretty sizable gap inside the last 15k thinking well okay, he's gonna, he's gonna double up behind Luke Plab on Jay Colula. He's in a group. He I feel like he was the one pushing the Pace that kind of created a split with. And I. I frankly had never heard of this team. It's Team Brennan. It's a continental, so third division pro team, which you're dipping into the amateur level when you're in the third division. A professional. He was on picnic post in the last year. Patrick Eddy. And there's multiple riders from this team, so this is super impressive from the team in this group, this chase group with Luke Plapp. They have. I was watching. I was like, babysitting watching it. And the neighbor kids were like, it's double. Because it was Jayco Brennan. And then the chasers were Jacob Brennan.

[Johan Berniel]

They.

[Spencer Martin]

They connect. They're still behind Durbridge. They're getting close to the finish. It is a. It is a hard finish. Luke Plapp says, I'm just going to accelerate here. Ride everybody off my wheel. Reeling my teammate, who he did gift the win to last year, so he kind of owed him one. Reel in my teammate, drop everybody win. Well, that's not what happened. He reeled in Durbridge. Patrick Eddie, smart man. Just huddled on that wheel and sprinkled on.

[Johan Berniel]

Faster.

[Spencer Martin]

Dear life. Yeah. Knowing, you know, you know, when, you know all you have to do is hold a wheel to win. You can hold it. He holds it and then out sprints, plot for the win. The thing. The only thing that really saves Plat from total embarrassment is Jayco did not get third decathlon. Got third because there was a chase group coming behind. What were your thoughts on this, Johan? I. I thought. Yeah, I was. I thought this was one of the weirdest finishes to a pro race event.

[Johan Berniel]

One of the most stupid tactics you can think of. You know, I mean, it's like.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniel]

It's you. Tactics 101. You know, you have a teammate in front, even if. I mean. And you could say, well, you know, Der Brick was. He was probably not gonna make it. Right? Yeah, but.

[Spencer Martin]

But he was fading at the end.

[Johan Berniel]

He was dying. He was dying, you know, but. But. But still, you know, you are not the one to instigate that chase unless you are absolutely sure you're gonna blow everybody off your wheel.

[Spencer Martin]

But that.

[Johan Berniel]

That didn't happen. So I don't know if it's a team tactics. It's extremely stupid. I'm tempted to think that it's not the team, but it's an individual decision of Luke Plapp, which in this case, he is stupid because that's not the way you win a bike race. I mean, this Luke Plapp, he's an Incredibly strong rider. There's no question about that. He comes from. He has a track background, he has a huge potential, huge power. When he has his huge engine, he can. He can win many, many. I mean, many kinds of stages, different kind of stages, time trials, even mountain stages. But, you know, there's a reason why Luke Blapp, who is so strong and so talented, has almost never won a road race except the National Championships. I think, if I'm not mistaken, Spencer, he's won two races in his career outside of Australia, which is a stage in the Giro where he was unbelievably.

[Spencer Martin]

Strong, blew everybody away, just dropped everybody.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And then one stage in a stage race in Greece, the Tour of Hellas, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, a rider, like, with that quality has to win a lot more races, you know, and. And he didn't. So there's a reason for that. I mean, I. I think back, and I don't know if it's because, I mean, obviously tactically, he cannot be very smart. Otherwise, you don't do this. But I also have the impression that Luke Blapp is a different rider. If he races in Australia, it's pretty straightforward. I would say. You're strong, you're in the front. Then basically, at the end, if you're really strong, you blow everybody off. This time, he couldn't off your wheel. In Europe, I have seen him struggling a lot with positioning a lot. I do remember he took the yellow jersey in Paris, Nice. He was the leader of Pyrenees, and he was. And there was a stage where you could see it was, you know, difficult and up and down, turning. He was in the last five positions of the peloton. And, you know, are you doing that? You don't. You don't do that because you want to be there. You just are there because you're not great in the bunch. And I think, anyways, this observation doesn't justify the tactics used by Luke Plapp in the Australian Championships. It made me think. I mean, it's actually almost a copy of. You know, there's a race I have from my childhood when I started racing. I remember I watched the race, the World championships. Then in 1982, I just started racing. I was cadet, I think, but it's still in my memory. And it stuck with me. You know, it was the. The World Championships in 1990, 1982 in Goodwood in the UK. There was a select group, and there was. Jonathan Boyer was an American professional cyclist. I think he's the first American professional who did the Tour de France, if I'm not mistaken.

[Spencer Martin]

I believe so.

[Johan Berniel]

He was off the front by himself. And then you have a select group of all the favorites. The big favorite was Giuseppe Sarrone. He was. He was, you know, very big favorite, especially with that kind of finish. And you have Greg Lamont initiating the chase, attacking from the bunch after his again, also dying teammate because Jonathan Bowyer would not have won. But, you know, by doing then and then basically Cerrone just flew by everybody and, you know, made it look like it was a junior race. It was quite similar to. To those kind of tactics, you know. So, I mean, normally that's something you don't do. You know, if you have a teammate in front, even if you see he's going to be reeled in, you wait for your opportunity and you actually use that to your advantage to have initiate a move and just take advantage of it.

[Spencer Martin]

Even if you're selfish and you don't like. I don't like my teammate, I want to win, not them. You still should do what Johan's saying because it plays to your advantage. You should never close down a gap to your teammate because just you. That's a luxury you have in that moment. Like if Plapp is on Eddie's wheel and tells Eddie like, hey, go, go, close that wheel. Eddie has to close the final bit to Durbridge, and then that perhaps gives Plap the launch pad to then attack and drop Eddie before the sprint. Yeah, if you're doing like we just watched that Le Mond, that World Championships right before we did this, and, you know, maybe, maybe nobody stops that. That was an unbelievable acceleration. But when you close the gap like that, you're just giving a launch pad to someone else.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you could say Le Mans did it. And finally he secured his second place because he kind of anticipated. Yeah, was a bit ahead, but, you know, I mean, listen, Sir Ronnie would have won no matter what. Yeah, was not a bad.

[Spencer Martin]

And the. The team tactics on this lot. Lot of hand wringing about this. I will say it's always weird for the dominant team of a country when you're at a national championships. It's always strange because you have the numbers, you have the best riders, because clearly, like, if you're the biggest team in the country, you're just going to sign all the best riders in that country, but they also want to win. You don't. You're not really working as a team. It's. It's kind of like the Dutch situation at the women's Grapple World Championships. It's like, oh, can you believe they closed down their own rider? It's like, well, they're half the field, so, yeah, there's going to be some competition from the team.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. But in this case, I think, you know, if you're Jay Colula, you know, your main. Your primary mission is, okay, nobody can win this jersey except one of us. That's the primary mission.

[Spencer Martin]

Do they have radios in these races?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think so. I don't think national championships is allowed.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, to me, it looked like a guy that relies a lot on the radio and then didn't have a radio.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And that.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, that's probably also a reason, but still. Listen, I think juniors would know how to race if this. If this is the case.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I just think he felt like he was super strong and he would drop everybody, and that didn't happen.

[Spencer Martin]

And we like, how does this feel for Patrick, Eddie? The guy got. He gets flicked from his world tour team. He's probably in Australia.

[Johan Berniel]

We don't know exactly the reason. Right. I mean, yeah. From a team. Okay. I don't know if there's promises being made if, you know, going off his results, you know, there was not much there to say, hey, you know what? I deserve my spot on this team.

[Spencer Martin]

So.

[Johan Berniel]

But anyway, maybe there was. There were conversations held, promises made, and then ultimately his contract was not renewed. I mean, I personally. Listen, I mean, with all due respect, I did not. I have seen his name a few times last year, but I was always wondering, huh, who's this Patrick Eddy? Never heard of him.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I'm not gonna put picnic on blast here and say, I saw this coming, Eddie. He's one of the big sprinting talents in the peloton. I. I frankly don't even. I don't think I could have picked him out of a lineup before this.

[Johan Berniel]

But in his interview, I heard that his last win was juniors nationals.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow. So, yeah, he's only 23. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He's young.

[Johan Berniel]

So, I mean, I'm pretty sure he's. I don't know. Is he gonna get picked up by. By a team? Probably. It's probably one of those writers that didn't, you know, come to the attention of a lot of team managers. Now he's doing two down under. With that team or with the. Is it with that team or with the national team? I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

I bet it's with the national.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Big, big race for him.

[Johan Berniel]

So. Yeah, I mean, he's gonna try to. I mean, obviously, he's gonna show himself because he's going to wear the national. I mean, yeah, if he rides in the national team, it's not going to be much difference with, with the jersey though. No.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. But it always looks like a team of Australian national champions.

[Johan Berniel]

I, I think, I think a team will be interested in him to give him another chance.

[Spencer Martin]

So, yeah, I, I, I'm curious to see what happens there. I still can't believe. But not Durbridge Plap just to illustrate what something I noticed from him, I think it was Milan Center MO 2024. And you know, when they get on the coast and there's these climbs, positioning is everything. He's sitting last wheel going into every climb and then getting dropped because of positioning and then closing the gap in between the climbs and like, it's so, it's a so hard to do that.

[Johan Berniel]

Super hard.

[Spencer Martin]

No one in their right mind would do that.

[Johan Berniel]

Like, the guy is really, really super strong. I mean, there's, there's no question about that.

[Spencer Martin]

And it's just this positioning. I know awareness is what you would call it in American sports, just is not. And it's unclear to me is that the team must be hammering this home and it's just not totally connecting in every way. But moving on. Richard Pluga, Visa Lisa Bike team manager slash, I guess partial owner, had a recent. If you, if you cast our minds back a year, we were talking about one Cycling. Richard Pluga was one of the team managers heading this up. This was a breakaway league revolutionizing the business of pro cycling. Now he's saying, well, the UCI has to come in and create some guardrails because teams. I don't know if he said it exactly like this, but team budgets are getting too big, the arms race is too intense, that we're going to put ourselves out of business if we keep doing this. UCI has to do something. If he's making an appeal to the UCI that tells us one Cycling is not happening. Correct. Am I correct in thinking, could it.

[Johan Berniel]

Be a strategic interview also? Could be.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, it's a smart guy, you.

[Johan Berniel]

Know, and you know what? He's, he's definitely not in this alone. You know, obviously he has a voice. I don't think one cycling is dead. Or at least a form of that initiative. I've read somewhere. I mean, in that same interview, they made the observation that both Ivan Glasenberg, who's The owner of Q36.5, Pinarello, the team and many other things, and Zdenek Bakala, who's been the owner, the majority owner of Quickstep and Soudal team and many other businesses. He have. They're two very wealthy people and they're probably joining forces with other similar of their peers that they are still driving this initiative or under another name. I don't know what it is. I don't think it's dead and I think at some point it will happen. What I do know for sure, Spencer, is Richard Plugger requests the UCI to take initiative and make moves to change the business model of cycling. I can guarantee you that's not going to happen. That is never going to happen. That's not in the interest of the UCI. UCI wants weak members. You know, they know who the strong parties are. It's ASO and RCS a little bit. It's definitely not the teams. And they want it to stay like that. They want one strong or two strong partners that they get along with and the rest is weak and poor. I mean, so to speak. Right. So his request to the UCI, Richard, not gonna happen. And he knows that.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And that's what stuck out to me. He knows that.

[Johan Berniel]

So I'm wondering, it's not going to come from them. So I'm thinking, is there something else behind this interview that we don't get or I can't grasp. I'm kind of tempted to think that's the case.

[Spencer Martin]

I thought the same thing. Because he knows it. And then why is he saying it? The strong partner would be aso, the very strong partner. Record profits. These guys are crushing it. Owner of the Tour de France. Did you know something? And Tour down under is coming up on January 20th. That's crazy to me. We're about at our first World Tour race. You can watch that in the US on Peacock. And I was. Every year I put out a guide, a streaming guide, how to watch professional cycling in the us. It's the most popular thing I do all year. People are hitting me up, where is it? Where is it? Well, guess what? RCS does not have a TV deal in the US for 2026. It's like we're in 2026 right now. So that shows you, I don't know what that means, how that, how that is, that that is resolved. But that could be one of their strong partners is maybe not going to be so strong in the near future.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But that I could not believe that because some, you know, it's harder than you think to find this information, like where will the races be aired? And currently the Giro Italia is not set to be Aired in the United States. I. Presumably that will get resolved at some point, but I was surprised.

[Johan Berniel]

But the zero has always been separate. You know, they've always been. And they've always been late with. With everything, you know, so even the.

[Spencer Martin]

Start last year, they didn't know where it was going to be. Yeah, we'll tell you. Tell you, like a week out. Yes, you'll be fine. I'm calling this numbers corner. We are. One of them is like super interesting and relates to professional cycling. The other one relates to us. Let's do that. First, let's talk about ourselves. We had a mileage slash kilometer challenge on Strava in 2025. The final results. We're just trying to see who could ride the most at most in terms of distance. If it was time, Johan would have crushed me. Johan, this is your final public tally and we'll get to your private count in a second. You had 12,636 kilometers. Just if you go look at your Strava, I had 12,501 km. So I was 135 km short. I could have spent all New Year's Day racking that up. I didn't. Because you had private rides that must have been marked private, so your private number was higher. I did consider, like wanting to sow confusion in this.

[Johan Berniel]

You know what? I've tried to. I've tried to check which. For which reason I put one or two rides private. I. I didn't find them. And my total, my real total is 12, 804 km. I don't know, man. I, maybe I put, I don't know, one or two rights private because I was embarrassed that they were too slow or something like that. That could be, I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

It's just circling the UCI headquarters.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Maybe I was somewhere that it was probably better that nobody knew I was there. That's also a possibility.

[Spencer Martin]

That happens. It happens. And I mean, I, I knew that you had these extra numbers and I didn't want to do 300k on New Year's Eve. That was not something I wanted to do. But I was surprised it was that close. And then for 2026, we've added. We have another person with us wout van art. So, okay, 300. These are miles. So I'm 351 miles. You're 315. Wild is a 300 even. So.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

Actually, no. This is. He actually made past us. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Are we doing this again, Spencer, this year? Are we doing this again?

[Spencer Martin]

Well, we never really say we are, and then we end up doing it.

[Johan Berniel]

So, I mean, the thing is, I think, I think without knowing from each other or without trying to be.

[Spencer Martin]

I know if we never.

[Johan Berniel]

We kind of write more or less the same amount of.

[Spencer Martin]

I know.

[Johan Berniel]

Distance, which is pretty crazy actually.

[Spencer Martin]

And the elevation is almost exactly the same. Yeah, it's crazy. I was the pro move would have been to rest on New Year's Eve. Like, I'm not even gonna catch them and then drop a 400 kilometer bomb on New Year's Day or something like get a huge, get a huge lead. But the second number I wanted to share with people. So these, this is the time of year we're listening to a lot of interviews. You go to these media days. Oh, these are, this is what I want to do. And especially when we get to the Grand Tours, you're going to hear this a lot. I'm not targeting the overall. I'm targeting stages, plural. It's like what everybody says. I started to wonder, well, okay, everybody says this. How hard is it to win a stage? Because it seems pretty hard. You know, there's not a lot of stage winners out there.

[Johan Berniel]

Do you.

[Spencer Martin]

So there was 61 stages total in 20, 25. Or 61 stage winners. Because there was two stages without a winner at the Vuelta. Do you know how many winners there are? Like, how many riders want a stage of a Grand Tour? Huh?

[Johan Berniel]

40.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, exactly. 40.

[Johan Berniel]

40.

[Spencer Martin]

That's impressive. 40 on the door.

[Johan Berniel]

Now, listen, I mean, full disclosure, we have talked about this before, so that's good. No, we have a wild guess. A wild guess.

[Spencer Martin]

That's good. I mean, that's not, that's not many riders. And you know how we talked about this before, how many riders won multiple stages? It's just 12.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow. So, no, it's like I said, Spencer, you know, when, you know, when, when winning a stage in a Grand Tour is and has always been extremely difficult. It's, it's, it is, it is extremely, extremely contested and, and especially stage in the Tour. It's like winning a stage in the Tour is career changing for many, for many riders. I remember when I, I won my first stage in the tour in 93. And, and it was like I had the feeling that was like, it could not get any better than this. I had attained the maximum. You know, it's like, wow, I won a stage in the Tour, man. It's like, this is it. I made it. You know, and, and yeah, I, it always makes me, me smile when, when I see teams or certain Riders say, yeah, you know, we're not going to go for GC this year. We're going to go for stages. You know, stages, stages. Try to win one first, right? Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

It's like most life changing guys who.

[Johan Berniel]

Say, we're not going for gc, we're going to go for stages, usually never will end up winning a stage.

[Spencer Martin]

They usually don't even get a breakaway. People underestimate how hard it is they're getting these breaks. But do you know which rider won the most percentage of every stage on offer? So like the largest win share of the entire peloton.

[Johan Berniel]

That must be today.

[Spencer Martin]

No, that's what you would think today. Did win 6 points, 6.6 percentage of all stages on offer in Grand Tours. Mads Pedersen won 8.2% of the Grand Tour stages this year. Yeah, Mads Pederson, sneaky good.

[Johan Berniel]

So he won. So he must have won multiple in the Giro and multiple in the VA then.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he won what? I think he won four stages in the. In the Giro.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

One in the Vultures.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And he always actually wins quite a. He won what, a couple years? He won multiple stages of the Vuelta.

[Johan Berniel]

I think he won. Didn't he win two stages in the Vuelta this year?

[Spencer Martin]

I recall that, but I'm just seeing one when I look at it.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

I think we're conf. I think he won. He always wins one.

[Johan Berniel]

Anyway. This is five stages out of 61. That's like eight something percent. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So, yeah, it's really.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

People underestimate how hard it is to win.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, just 12 riders won multiple stages.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Because today, this year only won four stages. No, only in the. In the Tour. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Just won four.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So total. Total failure of a season. Yeah. Let's see. That's how people were talking about it during the Tour. What a disappointment. He only won four stages in the overall. Oh, my God. Get this guy. Get this guy out of here. Well, Johan, we. We all. We all have places to go. I have. I was insulted by our, by our producer about my physical fitness. So I do have to run to the gym. So I'm ready for July for, For our grappling. But we were also talking about. You were talking about your friends in Spain. They're like, yeah, they're like really fit. And I'm like, yeah, I guess, like, at a certain point you. Maybe we do need to do something other than riding bikes. Even though. Riding bikes.

[Johan Berniel]

Are you going to the gym? Okay, that's. Yeah, that's.

[Spencer Martin]

That's good. Going to the gym. Trying to get in shape.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

Trying to turn things around so I can win stages at the Tour de France this summer. We'll see. But.

[Johan Berniel]

All right. So, thanks.

[Spencer Martin]

We'll be back. And what's crazy is, but the next time we're back, when we're back next week, we will be talking about World Tour bike races. I can't wrap my head around that.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, time flies, man.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, it does fly. Especially when the pro cycling season is 10 months out of the year. Well, thanks so much, Johan, and we'll talk soon.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay. Bye.

[Spencer Martin]

Bye.