A (9:04)

Okay, Spencer. Well, you know, as. As you said it perfectly, you know that what happened in the race main event, Pugachar does what he did last year, but better. I think last year he attacked with a little. I mean, around 100 or a little under 100 kilometers. This year he went with 104 kilometers to go on. On Mount Kigali with the difference compared to last year that now this was straight away that the. The winning move. Whereas last year there was people ahead and he left from the peloton of favorites and caught up with the break and then got some help from teammates. Jan Traffnick, I remember, was in there. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I was thinking before. Before the podcast, Spencer, you know, and while we were watching the race, I said, what. What are we going to talk about in the. In the podcast? It's like, okay, my only. My only thought was I. And I remember in outcomes, when we did outcomes for this race, I was having, you know, light doubts about Pogachar not looking super in Canada. And then, you know, the time trial, I think it was a bit blown out of proportion because Remco call him in the time trial. But I was thinking, why did I even doubt Go Gachar? You know, it's like this is. This is like the biggest confirmation that he's the best in the world on a course like this. And you. You can see everybody came in one by one until. What was it, until 6th or 7th place or maybe even even further down. There is no beating this guy. He. This is risky. He said. He said. He said personally that, you know, he wanted to go early and hoped that he had a group of riders, which initially he had, right, with Ayuso and the author, so three UAE riders. But he said, yeah, then, you know, I used to got dropped and Del Toro apparently had a problem with his stomach. So he. He was solo in front a lot earlier than he had expected or hoped. And then he said, yeah, I had no choice. I had to go. And you always have doubts, but I just kept my rhythm, you know, winning with what was. Was it 120 or 130 almost on remco and everybody else, two and a half minutes. The you. The fifth place is already six minutes down. Spencer. Tenth place is nine minutes down. What can we say about this guy? He just makes it look smooth, I'm pretty sure. I mean, of course he suffers and he went to the limit and he was super tired. But if you look at the difference between today Pogacha, when he crosses the finish, where I have no doubt he gave everything he had, he looks still very composed. He's not destroyed. Almost everybody else, they passed the finish line, they were dead. That, you know, there was a certain moment, Spencer, in the race, right, where. So boucher had this one minute lead, one minute, 110, 115, 120. And then Remco attacked and he left Ben Healy and Scaramosa behind. Said, okay, you know, let's see what happens now. So initially with that attack, he kind of reduced the difference by 10 seconds. And that was it. It went back up to, you know, like Pogacha just went the same speed all the time. He did not slow down. Amazing. Amazing. You know, I mean, to do. To do this, being the big favorite, this was actually. I mean, these kind of races, Spencer, these kind of courses, that's actually the best possible if you. If you're. Because you cannot get caught out in tactical games. Yeah, it is the strongest rider who wins. And especially the way races, you know, it's like, okay, with 100k to go, he goes. The plan, his plan was that a few riders would follow. He knew it would be three or four riders, the strongest guys, and there's nobody else who is at that level. And yeah, I mean, he. He came in front by himself earlier than he would have wanted, but just, you know, the last. I mean, you could see. I think the last lap is the first time we saw a bit of a grimace on his face, but other than that, he was really in control of his effort, which is. Which is, I mean, nice to see him in. Impressive. I like it, Spencer. When the best rider wins the best race, it's. That's the way it should be. And I agree, you know, it's. It may some, for people be boring, but I just enjoy that kind of performance. You know, when. When everybody expects you to win and you kind of are there. When everybody expects you to be there and you just deliver, and in what.

B (14:12)

A fashion, you deliver well on the boring. To address that up top, if people think he's boring, they should watch the Vuelta Espanya this year, where he was not at. Because that was the most boring race of the year, but we perceive it as risky. I. I think it's the opposite, because by attacking so far out, he's creating a circumstance where only he can win because he's. We'll talk about the women's race at the end of this, but the women's race is the perfect counterbalance to this, where it Wasn't hard enough. Got way too tactical. The favorites then, like, let it slip away.

A (14:46)

Like, how.

B (14:47)

How many times have we seen, like, Peter Sagan get drawn into. Same thing with, like, Cancelara in the. In the classics, like, get drawn into a tactical battle. Everyone stares at them. They lose the race. Like, this was just so straightforward of. And it was even a better course than last year because yesterday was easier. But it's just so straightforward of, like. And got a little help from the Belgian team, who was making the race pretty hard. But, like, I'm going to go on the hardest climb, and only the strongest riders can follow me. And even before Del Toro was dropped and even I used, to some extent, the problem that they were always going to have is a. So Remco Evenepoel got dropped in that climb. So let's say Remco Evanopol catches Pagachar. Well, he wouldn't he just get dropped because he was struggling on the climbs. And also the riders chasing because it was such a hard course. It looks like a big peloton chasing. They're all going to go slower on the climbs. Like, once they hit a climb, the gap's going to go out because it's not flat enough for a big group to, like, build up momentum. They're going to be going slower than Picacho and Del Toro on every climb, which is what happened, which is why they could never catch them.

A (15:51)

Yeah, I mean, but if you see the size of the group already on Mount Kigali, even before, I mean, and I wouldn't say he attacked Spencer. He went to the front and just started to ride faster and faster. It was not an attack.

B (16:03)

I mean, I almost thought he was. It was the opposite. I felt like he was trying not to drop people. Like, he wanted people with him.

A (16:10)

You see the size of that group. What was it, 30, 40 guys? Yeah. So automatically you can expect that there's not going to be a lot of people available to organize a chase. And that's what happened. You know, now, listen, this was a hard. This was a really hard parkour. I mean, it's on one time you have the elevation, but there are other races and other courses where you can. You can have that similar elevation. But let's say there's maybe three climbs and then there's some time to recover and to get back on this course. There was no recovery. Zero. You know, that Mount Kigali was hard, but then they already had done nine times the lap. And then finally, what did they do? Six more after Mount Kigali. So there's that there was no recovery at all. And yeah, I mean he went first. I used to. And Del Toro were there and there was some organization. Belgian, Belgium tried to organize Australia. Those were basically, I mean, France a bit. France also a little bit. But those. That's like one lap, you know, it's one basically what, what could happen here is okay, Pogacha attacked early on 100k to go, 104 to be precise. There's some kind of organization. You need to have two or three countries and they, they can do that. One lap or two maybe. And then their leader needs to be able to bridge, which is not going to happen.

B (17:50)

Well, yeah, and, and they're pulling slower than Tadipagar. Yeah, you know, so like they're losing time every time a non superstar is pulling because they can't pull faster than Pugach can because Kagali has weeded out anyone. Not like at that point you are like, you are who you are. If you're at the front and you're Michael Matthews, you're not pulling harder than Tadde Pagachar is at that point, even if he's with one of the riders. Couple, couple things to cover with you on this. Also, just notice Primus Roglish back there just playing the perfect teammate. Oh yeah, yeah, he was there.

A (18:23)

He was there. Never, you know, like he was always there, you know, didn't really matter. But he was a great teammate today. But Spencer, I think what we should really also discuss here is and especially after having read some, I mean, not a quote from Remco, but from his mechanic. For me it was, it was surprising to see because ultimately Remco did a good race. In the end he finished second behind the best rider, who in my opinion was untouchable. But he crossed the finish line pissed off, in a bad mood straight after the race. He was sitting there for like quite a long time, really like super disappointed. And I was thinking by myself, and it's easy to say that of course when you're sitting behind your big screen and the sofa laying down with, with an ice cold Diet Coke or something like that. But I was, I was wondering, I said, why is he so pissed off and disappointed? You know, he did, he had two bike changes as you said. So would it really have mattered in your opinion? I don't think so. I mean, I don't think he could have beaten Bogachar today. First of all because he got dropped on Mount Kigali. Now we have to, we would have, we're speaking now without having all the information because it's. It's too close to the finish of the race. But did he get dropped because the seat had moved? Because apparently he hit a pothole and the seat of his race bike, his Gold Collar bike, moved or tilted down. It could be. It could be. But he got. I mean, he got dropped big time. Was not the second group, and he was not with the third group. And he was in a position when. When Pogacci went, He was there. And so he kind of had to, you know, he went to the right side, had to get out of the line and moved backwards. So I think it was kind of in his mind already. If you know that your seat is not in the right position, and especially on Mount Kigali, you know that there's going to be people everywhere and that your car is not going to be straight behind your group. Right? So that's another thing. There's no communication, no radio communication in the World Championship. The UCI, because it's their race, they don't allow radios. So Remco could not talk to his car, saying, I have a problem in my seat. So my opinion, he made the decision, okay, I have this problem. I'm going to try to hang on here, and I'm going to go till the circuit. And in the boxes, there's a third spare bike, which is the right decision. But the question is, would it have made a difference? Would the Remco have been able to follow Bogachar? I'm going to. I'm going to go. I'm going to say no. I'm going to say there was nobody able to follow Bogachar. If Ayusu and Del Toro are not able to follow him, then I don't think Remco would have followed him either.

B (21:49)

Well, so mathematically he has a grievance because technically he spent more time waiting for a bike than he lost the race by. So I guess technically, yes. I would answer your question with a question. When is Remco Evanopole ever match Teddy Pagacha on a climb like that? Has it ever happened?

A (22:05)

No. No.

B (22:07)

Yeah. So here, here's the. The thing about Red Mo that I don't fully understand. So he gets dropped to Mon Kigali, he gets a spare bike, and then. And then he changes again, and it's a disastrous bike change because his car, I believe, is not where he thought it was going to be, but he changes it like a super important point of the race, like when the chase group is splitting up. Like, if you're going to catch Pagacha. It's going to happen at this time. And he changes because he perceives his saddle to be too high. But his mechanic has come out and said they measured it, it was not too high. Yeah, to me it starts to feel a little bit like that. Rimco, was he rattled by Mount Kigali and he did not.

A (22:48)

I don't know. I mean, it's difficult, it's difficult to judge because we don't know if the reason why his saddle was had dropped. I mean, I'm gonna guess so, but apparently he hit a pothole and the saddle either tilted down or up. I don't know. Listen, that can be, that is very annoying and it can, it can, it does affect your, your performance physically and especially mentally. You know, and, and we all know that any professional rider has their bikes fine tuned and they even prefer to ride with one bike. Although their spare bike is exactly the same position up to the millimeter, it still feels different. We, I mean, everybody who rides bikes knows what I'm talking about. You know, I think it's, I mean, it could be that his disappointment also comes down to basically not being able to communicate his problems. Whereas the rest of the year you can communicate that to your car and it's solved very quickly. And here you can't communicate because we all saw that he had to talk to the motorbike and say to the motorbike, okay, I need a new bike. And then they obviously send over a radio tour, even a pool needs a new bike. And then only the car could come. And in between that time he lost. I mean, I think he was 45 seconds down when he changed that second bike. So is he disappointed because he thinks that without these two bike changes he could have followed him? Personally, I don't think he would have been with. He can be disappointed because without those two bike changes, he had a better, I mean, at least he, in his mind he thought he had a chance. Or is he disappointed because he realizes that he made a mistake by doing that second bike change? That first bike change was obviously necessary.

B (24:59)

Yeah, but that second, it wasn't in the worst spot. The first one wasn't that bad because he actually could get back to that group. He had a lot of teammates, it wasn't terrible.

A (25:08)

Yeah, but that second bike change, that's maybe why he was disappointed because he said, I made a mistake. You know, I made a mistake because the bike was fine. You know, I don't know. It's also, I mean, listen, if you're riding with a bike and your. Your seat angle changes and you're riding with it for a while, and then you get on a normal sea diagonal, it will feel different. It will feel like, okay, this is not right. You know, it's. It's. First it was too much down, now it's too much up. And certain writers deal better with those kind of subtle changes than others. And, you know, so that's completely understandable. So. But I think, I think he was disappointed because he's. He realized that he made that mistake, that second bike change, probably, which is also understandable because he was not able to communicate it with. With the team.

B (26:06)

But how many times have we seen Jonas Vinegar take a teammate's bike and just finish a race with it? You think about the TWA stage at the Tour last year, like, yeah, hugely important Tour stage, and he's on someone else's bike.

A (26:18)

In the Vuelta now, in the Vuelta.

B (26:19)

He did the same. And so that part of it is like, to be a champion, stuff goes wrong and you have to. It's just not going to be perfect. Like, even, you know, Pagacha does that all the time. Like, he got at the tour in 2024, he attacks and he kind of bonks and he gets caught by Jonas and Jonas beats him. And he doesn't mental. Mentally spiral from it like you have. There's like a perseverance angle to being a superstar and winning a lot that it kind of doesn't feel like he has. I mean, I don't want to be too harsh because he finished second, had a great race, but that second bike change, I was shocked. I was shocked watching it.

A (26:58)

Yeah. Yeah. But I think. I think that's probably, you know, why. Why he was not happy with his second place. But, I mean, I think it's also on the moment when he crossed the finish line, you know, he was super disappointed on the podium. He looked different. Right. I mean, he was. At least he was smiling. And I think he realized, okay, this is as good as it can get. But on the other hand, I think that even a pool, it shows the mentality of a guy who is only satisfied when he wins. And this, and this is a great trait to have as a cyclist, as an athlete. Let's go back to. I don't know when it was, but if his first year pro would have been 2019, maybe. Yeah, world championship stamp trial, you know, his first year pro, he's 19 years old, finishes second, is beaten by Ron Dennis, destroyed everybody. So it was not a matter of Okay, I lose with 5 seconds or 10 seconds. He just. Remco Evenepoel as a young 19 year old was silver medal in the World Championships first year pro and he was there and he was pissed because he didn't win, you know, and that's the, that's also the, the one of the qualities of a champion, you know that. Okay, I'm not happy with second. I want to win. Yeah.

B (28:29)

Well, okay, let's take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk about if Remco might be unhappy for a while because there seems to be an issue between him and winning when their name is Tadipugachar. But we'll be right back, everybody. Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it every day. I've got a nice little canister AG1 sent me. I keep it in the fridge. I have a nice mixer AG1 sent me. First thing I do when I come down, boom, I pop that in, I shake it and I'm on my onto my day. I don't have to worry about eating my greens because I'm pretty bad about that. I'm probably not going to do that. And I did this because I wanted better gut health, steady energy, immune system support. And honestly, I'm not taking supplements. No, I'll forget to do it. I can, I can take the AG one. I'm not great with the supplement supplements and with every serving I'm getting 75 high quality ingredients to support energy, focus, strength and clarity. And it covers my nutritional bases in ways that literally could not be easier. And this is why I trust ag1. So head to drink ag1.com/the move to get a free welcome kit including a bottle of vitamin D5. AG1 Travel packs a 76 value when you first subscribe. That's drinkag1.com themove check it out today everybody. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. I've been on a Helix mattress for a while now and honestly it's a begin. It's been a complete game changer. I was not on it during the summer. I was up in Aspen at the Tour de France. I was abroad with my family and I was struggling. But I came home first night in that bed. My Garmin watch starts showing me better results. Deeper, longer sleep cycles. Recovery scores are noticeably higher and I think it's because of my Helix. I've had it for about a year and the difference is night and day compared to my old mattress. I fall asleep faster, I stay asleep longer, and I actually wake up feeling rested instead of groggy. The better sleep translates into sharper focus for work, better energy on the bike, and just an overall calmer, healthier daily rhythm. And, and if you're wondering, well, which mattress do I get? All you got to do, go to the website, take their sleep quiz. You answer a few questions, they tell you exactly what mattress to get. So if you're ready to take your step and your life to the next level, check out helixsleep.com their 27% Labor Day sale has also been extended for exclusive partners. So go to helixsleep.com themove and get 27% off anything on the site today. And make sure to enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. That's helixsleep.com the move so Johan. Yeah, Remco is not going to be happy unless he wins. Here, here's, here's the problem with that. This is unbelievable. Tadupagacha wins his second world race or road Championships? Road race World Championships. But like outside of that, like if you just look at one day races with over 4,000 meters of climbing, he's not lost one that he's finished since the 2022 road worlds which was won by Remco, which probably does expl of this like anxiety or anger Rimco has because he did beat him. And then since then it feels like p's gotten better and he's not kept pace with like, like how, like it'd be like how is this happening? I already beat this guy. But before that he hadn't lost one of these races since the 2022 Worlds and then 2021 Olympic Games. And then if you go back the 2020 Liege where he gets third, 2020 World Championships where he gets 33rd. He's, he's like barely 20 years old at that point. And then 18th, 18th, 19 Le best on Le his first year pro since then he's essentially unbeatable in one day races with that much climbing. And even if you like, if you take away the climbing and just go World tour one day races, he not only does he almost never lose, he almost never finishes up the podium. And like so he finishes second at Montreal, but he gifted that to a teammate 29th at GP Quebec, that wasn't a great race for him. But even like I'm looking at like Perry Roubaix, that's not a race for him in any respect. He finishes second, third at Milano San Remo. Like he, he Podiums in races that don't really suit him and he just wins. Like I don't know if I've ever seen anything like this. I know you said on our outcomes that Eddie Merckx is the best of all time.

A (32:47)

I maintained that statement.

B (32:48)

Are we sure about that? You still maintain that?

A (32:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (32:53)

Eddie Merck's never won back to back world titles on the road.

A (32:56)

Spencer, five tours, five GS, one va, four world championships, three in the world championships. Okay, well, three one, three pros, one amateur seven times Milan San Remo, five times the Espton Liege, three times Flanders. I mean I can go on five times Lombardi, world hour record holder, blah, blah, blah, you know, never, it's never going to be, it's not possible, it's not possible to, to, to do, sit, to do something similar than Eddie Merckx. And you know, we've had, we're having this debate every, every two, three weeks if we're talking about the Depogachar, but you just can't compare eras, you know, because people say, ah, you know, Eddie Merckx was riding against guys who were, you know, semi professionals. That's not true, first of all. But that was the era then. It's not only Merckx's fault that, you know, the cycling was not as developed. It was, it was obviously, you know, it was a sport which was Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands. That's it. Basically. This is completely different. But that doesn't mean that the athlete Eddie Merckx from the, you know, late 60s and the 70s, if you put that kind of athlete in today's cycling, in today's world, in today's technology, today's science, it'd be the best. I have no doubt about that.

B (34:32)

Well, okay, but just to, I don't think Pagatra will ever have 279 victories. He doesn't race enough. So Merck's like, he'll never reach Merckx's raw victories, but he is on pace. Like if he keeps us up for as long as Merck's kept it up, he's not going to land far off those Palmers you just mentioned. Like, and it's also the stage, it's.

A (34:54)

Also the way he wins. You know, the way he wins. It's, it is, it is in Merck's fashion. He just, that's just dominating people.

B (35:03)

Yeah, yeah. And so he's already only like, if we're just not senior titles, there's only five writers have won it. More than Tata Pigachar. That's Oscar Freire, Rick Van Steinenberg.

A (35:18)

Yeah.

B (35:18)

Stenbergen, Alfredo Binda, Peter Sagan, and Eddie. Eddie Merckx. So if he wins one more of the. One more of these, he's tied with them.

A (35:27)

I.

B (35:27)

The. Eddie Merckx was the last person I could find that won the world title in the world in the Tour de France in the same year and won it twice, like, doing that two times. I can't think of another because, like, Greg LeMond won the Tour more than twice and won two world titles, but in one of those years, he didn't win the Tour. So that already is, like, unbelievable.

A (35:47)

And, And Pogachar is the first one who does it two years in a row.

B (35:50)

Two years in a row? Yeah. The first rider to win two years in a row, both tour and World championships. The way he's winning, I mean, it is. It's unbelievable. Like, you know, he. He's out there drinking his element, staying hydrated, but you're seeing guys like Jayvine just pull up, like, unable to continue with like 80k to go. Also, is that a little. Little hometown cooking with the UAE team, it seemed like the UAE riders didn't have the leg. Quite have the legs to chase Tate Pagacho today.

A (36:18)

Oh, no, I don't think so. I don't think so.

B (36:20)

What, what happens if, let's say I win a world title on UAE and UAE pays my bonus for that? Do I split that with my trade teammates or my national teammates?

A (36:32)

No, no. If you win a world championships and you have a bonus, it's yours. And then what usually happens, what usually happens is in national teams, let's not forget this is a very weird race because you are. You're racing all year together with your teammates. And then that one race, your, Your, your. Some of your teammates are your main rivals. One of them wins against your rivals of that day who are usually your teammates, and then a week later you're racing again with them and you have them race for you. So it's. So usually what happens in national teams, it's the meet the day before or a few days before. Let's say if there's two leaders, there's two riders who can win. They, the federations have a provision of a bonus, but usually the guy who says, okay, if I win, this is how much I will pay everybody. I don't know if it's how I would pay everybody or if it's the guys, the guys who have done something, a job. I mean, it's hard to believe that if somebody is on the team and drops out after lap one is probably not gonna get a bonus from the guy who wins. But because they're on other teams, that's the only way to basically motivate the team. Because it's kind of. It feels very unnatural, right, that you ride for someone, you try to help someone win a race, and next week he's your enemy or your rival again.

B (38:08)

Yeah, it's really weird.

A (38:10)

So it happens. I mean, usually. I mean, especially in the big federations. That's the way it works. There's a meeting, and then the leader or the leaders make a proposal. I mean, usually it's. I mean, there's not so much. The, the guys don't have so much choice. I mean, they accept because they're not gonna win. So they accept and they, they. If, if the guy wins, there's a bonus.

B (38:38)

And just in terms of teams bonuses, this takes us to uae. Pretty good day for UAE with three riders in the front, all three of them UAE riders. I do think it helped that they. But both Del Toro and Pagacha were on these ultra arrow bikes and they're away alone, like, borderline TT bikes, and they're swapping off terms. I I turns. I think that helped a lot, but it's. It was a little weird because I also. Ayuso wants to, like, assert himself as a star. He is leaving the team, so, like, clearly he's not. There's no, like, team allegiance there. He just happens to be away with Del Toro in Pagachar. Let's say they get over the top. Let's say he does not get dropped by Del Toro. A. Do you think Del Toro. I don't want to say working for Bagachar, but that acceleration, I do think right after Mount Kigali on the. On the next couple climb, I think that hurt Del Toro, the fact that he went so hard on that it drops. I uso, did he do that for himself or for the good of Tadipogacha? Like, what happened there?

A (39:42)

Personally, I think, you know, initially when I saw it, I said, oh, wow, the Toro is strong and he was even. I had a slight gap on even Pogacha because I was behind Ayuso. Then if you, if you hear the interview afterwards, I think he did it as a UAE teammate for Pugachar, not necessarily against Ayuso, but. But as a UAE teammate, not as a member of Team Mexico, because apparently he already felt he had stomach problems and he would have had difficulties to finish the race. But Still, I mean, he was there. He was, he was one of the two other guys who were there and nobody else was there. So he was not that bad. And then he finished 7 del Toro. Yeah. Let's see.

B (40:37)

Okay, so Chacone 6. Del Toro 7th. ISO 8th.

A (40:41)

Oh, wow. Wow, that's pretty good.

B (40:43)

Pretty good. Yeah, pretty good.

A (40:45)

Now my question is, Spencer. So we have Pugach and I uso Del Toro. It's clear that between Del Toro and Ayusho, between Del Toro and Pogacha, there's good vibes, they get along, they speak highly of each other. Bochar congratulated Del Toro several times during the Giro. And it's also clear and public that are you. So. So we all know that he's leaving uae. Even if he had a contract, a multi year contract. We all know what happened in the Vuelta. He was criticizing the team and now after the Vuelta, he's even more criticized the team publicly in detail. So that relationship is done between.

B (41:37)

Did you see they tweeted ua tweeted the picture of Del Toro dropping Ayuso.

A (41:42)

And then deleted it. Oh, I didn't, I didn't see that. I didn't see that. But I'm curious to know, let's say if Pugacha is not dominant and Ayuso is not dropped and Del Toro is in, you know, able to, to collaborate, would Ayuso have helped? Would he have ridden together with Del Toro and Pugacher? Normally, I mean, first of all, if the three of them are together and they're teammates, that's already one reason to ride together. But on top of that, if the three of them are together, that's a guaranteed medal. If they collaborate and they stay, stay up. I think personally, man, that Ayuso would not have collaborated and he would have tried to, you know, sit on or skip a few turns. And then I would have been, I would be curious to see if Bogachar and Del Toro would have attacked one of the time to drop a. I.

B (42:41)

Guess this takes us back to the course. Like, normally that could be a problem, but with today's course, if Ayusu sits on, he's toast. He's buttered toast. Because Fagacha is going to say, screw this guy and he's going to drop you on one of these, these tough coupled climbs like, and people were giving like Del Toro a hard time for, for polling. Like, I don't, don't pull with Pagacha. It's like, well, it's his only option because if he doesn't Pull. Pagatra's got no reason to keep him around. Yeah, they thought they had a. It's funny going back and watching it. They think they have a chance for second and third, but you're like 100 going 100k is in front of a group like that. It's a lot harder than people think it is. And like, they actually probably were never going to be able to stay out there. They would fatigue. Pagacho is just a freak. I thought it was super interesting.

A (43:29)

I'm still. I'm. I'm impressed now then. I mean, now looking at the result, I mean, I'm impressed that. Are you. So. And. And Del Toro are still up there like seven and eight. That's. That's a pretty good performance because, man, once you blow on this course.

B (43:43)

I know over.

A (43:45)

Yeah.

B (43:45)

And I guess. I guess being up there, they kind of missed then like the infighting. So maybe is a little bit smoother ride. But I thought. I thought for sure both were going to dnf. Like that's how the lights just went out on him.

A (43:58)

But you know, you know what's. You know what also very remarkable to me, Spencer is, you know, okay, he was definitely the strongest boccia by far. But on top of that, the difference in. I don't know if it just. If it's just the way it looks, but his riding style and his technique on cobbles, compared to all these other light guys, he looked so smooth, like he was not working the bike on the cobbles. Everybody else, you could see, they were. They all go really well uphill, but they were working the bike because it was on cobblestones. And Bogachia just was like. He was, you know, gliding over the. Over the cobblestones. I don't know, maybe it's just optical impression, but it looked very, very, very smooth.

B (44:44)

I feel like he has a lower cadence too. Look like a lot of the guys, it's like this ultra spin. And then that maybe that's not as efficient. Picacho. It was like an older school. Slower cadence is kind of what it appeared like. But I. Super interesting with these three up. Like, he's like Del Toro. Amazing. That's 21 years old. I use is 23. There was a moment where I was like, oh, man, are they gonna beat Pagacha? And then of course, Tada's like, okay.

A (45:08)

It was a very short moment. It was very short.

B (45:10)

The kids. It's the kids. Bedtime. Dad gets to stay up. Go back to the peloton now. But if you're Remco. What you said about Remco, like, he's a champion mindset. He wants to win. Is this going to be a problem for everyone? That's not Pagacha and Pagacho's generation. Because it seems like. I mean, this is not hype with Del Toro, and even I uso that I might have differences in the way he approaches the sport, but he's very good, too, and he's very young. Like, is this going to be a problem for everyone in that. Let's say, the G. It's funny calling it a generation, but let's just say four or five years older, because these guys seem to be like, they're coming up fast.

A (45:46)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, first of all, they have to get the main problem out of the way. That's Pogachar. And so I. The way. The way it goes now, you know, you just have to try to stay motivated, try to be as good as possible. For when the moment arrives that he's either gonna stop his career or start to fade, which. That. Which may happen and, you know, and we should say, like, 30, 31. I don't know.

B (46:18)

People think riders just, like, fall off a cliff. What happens is you get injured, you know, and, like, the injuries keep you from preparing, and then that's why you start to fade. So, like. Yeah, usually it's external factors that come in.

A (46:30)

Yeah. You know, so in those cases, a guy like Remco needs to be. Needs to be ready. I mean, listen, he's second in the World Championships. He's the best of the rest, and he won very dominantly. The time trial, It's. I mean, if you have a gold medal in the time draw and a silver on the road, it's a pretty good campaign, man.

B (46:53)

Yeah. Well, the problem with. For Remco is. So if you asked me, like, so who is going to then usurp Pagachar, I would. My first answer would be nobody. Like, I don't know. I don't want to pick one. My second would probably be Del Toro.

A (47:07)

Yeah, that.

B (47:09)

That's not normal. What he's doing at 21 is not normal.

A (47:12)

Yeah, that is. Listen, we all know how he. How he won and dominated Tour de la Veneer two years ago when he. When he, you know, first time we remarked him internationally, he was super strong already then he was 19, right?

B (47:28)

Yeah.

A (47:30)

And he's been improving since. So, yeah, I think he's. He's the guy. He's the next guy for the moment, until another guy shows up. All of a sudden, we don't know.

B (47:41)

Yeah, these guys don't show up as much as you think, though. And, you know, like, Johan and I, you and I, we. We lived through. I don't even want to say these eras. There's been eras that I wouldn't even say there was a guy. You know, like, looking back, you go back through some of these, there are like fallow periods where you're like, oh, wow, they won a world title. I didn't. Didn't realize that because there's just not a dominant. Like, what we're seeing from Pagacha and even Evanopole is not. You can't expect this all the time. Like, there won't always be the. Think of Ben Healy. So Ben Healy gets third. That's been Healey first.

A (48:17)

Amazing. Amazing.

B (48:18)

Yeah, we think since Sean Kelly in 89.

A (48:21)

Yeah, I think. I think it's since 89 in Chambery, when Lamont won, I think. I think Konishev was second and. And Sean Kelly was third. So incredible, actually, a guy like Sean Kelly, he never won the World Championships. He was such a good rider. He was a classic rider. Yeah. He was able to. When, you know, all the hardest races, Lombardy, Lias, Baston, Liege, even one of Welta. And. And he could never win the World Championships.

B (48:54)

And so Ben Healy gets third in another universe, Ben Healy's winning this race. Like, if Pagatra and Evan Napole don't exist or aren't here. And that just kind of got me thinking. I went back through old lists and so, like, Alessandro Balan wins the world title in. What was that? 2008. So let's say 2008, I believe. And then you're like, well, Balon's a good writer. He's one Tour Flanders. He has 12 career victories. Like, it seems like in the. Let's say since 2020, you no longer have the 12 career victory guy winning the World Championships. It's just like absolute superstar. Like, you have Aloop twice, Pagachar Vanderpoel, like, Like Wild hasn't even won. That's Sagan. Like, that's how, like, high the bar is. And you would say the oddball one is Mads Pedersen in 2019. But Pedersen wasn't an oddball winner. He was just early. Like, he's gone on now to become one of the best writers in the sport. Like, do you think that it feels to me like the bar is raising, is that.

A (49:54)

It depends on the course also, Spencer, you know, I mean, I saw the list there. I mean, they, there's. We don't know how the course is going to be but there's in the next five or six years there's one in Abu Dhabi for example mean we know we don't know what the course is going to be. And, and yeah it depends on the course but I mean obviously isn't. It's 270k. It's always going to be hard, you know but think of the. I think, I think they should mix it up a bit also and sometimes make it less hard because I mean if it's, if it's really. If it's 4,500, 5,000 meters there's only three riders who could potentially win and, and if Pugach participates there's only one guy who can win if it's. And it's him.

B (50:45)

Yeah, yeah. But yeah I do think with these ultra hard courses it's too limiting. But even if we like pull that aperture out so like San Ramos, the easiest monument, same guys win that every year. Like there's never an outsider winning San Remo anymore. And do you know in the last 21 top tier one day races. So that's Monuments, World Championships, Olympics. Do you know how many riders have won those 21 races?

A (51:11)

Four.

B (51:12)

Four. And one of those is Jasper Phillipson. So if he has one win. So if you take him out.

A (51:17)

So it's been, it's been. Who's been? Remco and Ronda. Cool. And Philipson and Phillipson. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

B (51:26)

Four riders have won the last, the.

A (51:28)

Last 21 Monuments or World Championships. That's crazy.

B (51:32)

Or Olympics.

A (51:34)

Yeah. Okay.

B (51:34)

And even the Olympics that was kind of an easy course. And then Remco just rides away.

A (51:39)

Yeah, yeah.

B (51:41)

It's, it's lean times for the, it's.

A (51:44)

Also the distance, Spencer. I mean anything over 250k reduces the guy. The guys who can win. I mean there's so many riders who are really, really super good until 200k and then you. As soon as it's 230, 240, 250. It's different. It's that last hour that separates the really huge engines from the good racing engines.

B (52:09)

Yeah, yeah that's true. I mean I'm still stuck on your Mercs, the Merck's take. But I would say on Mercs and Pagachar to some extent it's really rare to see riders that have such high threshold powers but also explosive. But just before, before we leave the men's race, one thing I was wondering during the race, Johan So we watched Remco catch Bogachar in the time trial. You know, I think I understand that these are different efforts. One is 45 to 50 minutes long, one is almost seven hours long. That would be the first difference. But how would you explain to someone watching this saying, how the heck did their form flip flop between the two races? Like, what are the major differences and why is time trailing so unique to me?

A (52:53)

It's very, very simple, very easy. In my opinion, the answer is, took a break after the Tour, didn't race, went to Canada. Big travel time difference. Did two races there on, on Sunday. He was good, gifted. The. The race to McNulty, then flew to. To Rwanda, Arrived, in my opinion, a bit tired, not adapted yet to the weather, to the oxygen, to the time difference. And he had a week to settle in and relax and no stress. He was riding for sure. He did some really good rides, but he was riding with his girlfriend, I saw, and just, just rested and recovered and that's that. I mean, yeah, it's a different. This was a different guy today than last weekend, for sure.

B (53:52)

Yeah, no, that's a good point that he had. We watched him in Canada and then we're watching him in Rwanda less than a week later.

A (54:00)

Yeah, yeah.

B (54:01)

He might not feel his best, but I'm still blown away he won this without an altitude camp. Like people will on. On Twitter. I felt like you, I'm like. Everyone's like, oh, people are saying this is high altitude. It's like you go to 1500 meters and try to race your bike. It's not so easy when you're not adapted. But he does no altitude camp, just rolls up and destroys.

A (54:21)

Well, I mean, you know, he didn't do an altitude camp, but he may have done altitude training, whether it's an altitude tent or an altitude room or whatever, you know, I mean, I think nowadays that's standard to a standard tool of professional cyclists, in my opinion.

B (54:42)

Yeah, like you sleep. I was reading some scholarship that maybe the tents aren't actually working, but don't quote me on that.

A (54:49)

I think they are working.

B (54:50)

But what. So I do think, yeah, I would say I think they work, but. So we have Canada next year. 2026 Haute Savoy, France 2027. Both courses that probably suit Pagachar. If he wins four, four in a row, do you change your opinion about the best of all time?

A (55:09)

I mean, Spencer, the best of all time. You cannot. You cannot compare different eras.

B (55:17)

That's actually the correct answer, but it's the less fun answer.

A (55:20)

I Mean, listen, I. I have spoken with people who have raced with Eddie Marks, and, you know, one. One. One guy, you know, made his so rest in peace, Patrick circuit, who was my coach on the track. And, you know, we were from the same village and was a teammate of Eddie Merckx and very good friend. He says, you know, what people don't realize is you see all these races. So he raced with, against, and for Eddie Merckx, and he was not the same kind of rider as Eddie, but he was teammates for a few times. He said, what people don't realize is a part of all the wins he has. He says, if you would know the amount of kilometers that Eddy Merckx has been riding on the front, like, just, you know, okay, again, Spencer, we can't compare. Okay, you can't do this in today's cycling. But Eddie Merckx tried to find pictures of Eddy Merckx where he's not pulling in front of the peloton as the first guy. And then everybody on the wheel, and Eddie was just riding until everybody was off the wheel. He was just an animal. He was an animal. So I am biased because I know Eddie. He's a friend. He was my hero when I was a kid. But if you speak to people who have been around him and with him and raised with him, they will all say the same. There is nothing like him and there will never be anything like him.

B (56:49)

I will say this about Merckx, like, you, you, intellect.

A (56:53)

I didn't.

B (56:53)

I wasn't around when he was winning, so. But you, like, read about it. You kind of intellectually understand it, and you can't. You can't comprehend it. And then living now in the Pagacha era, you're like, oh, this must be kind of what it was like. Like, yeah, because what he did seems so impossible. And then you're like, you're watching a guy, like, if he's not as good, it's. It's as close as we're probably ever gonna see to someone as good like it is. I find it inspiring. I think it's cool. I don't care if people think it's boring. Also, let's go to Shout Out Corner really quick. First one, Tom Squeens gets fit today. Got fourth last year at Worlds. I believe that's the only person in the top five other than Pagachar to be here. Tears in a row because. No, no. Remco was fifth last year. But squeens. The thing about squeens, 70 kilos. I raced against this Guy he looked. I remember him looking so skinny. I think he's the heaviest rider in this race. Johan, in the top 15 slots. Like, that's.

A (57:50)

Yeah, he says, he. He said in his interview, he says he's the. The world champion of the guys above 70km, 70kg and more and 70 kilo. Spencer is not heavy.

B (58:03)

It's not heavy.

A (58:04)

It's not heavy. But in nowadays, and nowadays cycling with these courses, it is a big disadvantage.

B (58:11)

Yeah.

A (58:12)

You know, if you look there's. There, you know, they're the skies of 58. There's guys of 60, 63, 64 maximum. You know, I don't know. I don't know what Remco's weight would be. I saw Del Toro, for example, is 180 and he weighs 64 kilos.

B (58:32)

That's very light. But you're like, oh, that's pushing the upper edge of what you can be even like Utab. He's. He's listed at 68 kilos. He was in that group. I was like, what? Who's this big Belgian guy that made the front split? And it's like, that's climbing.

A (58:46)

But he's quite tall. No.

B (58:48)

Yeah, I mean, you are. You are penalized quite a bit in modern cycling for being that tall. Like, think of like, Pavel Sivakov is kind of a tall guy. Yeah, he's not. He's not big, but he's like heavier than a lot of people because he's just so tall. Like. Yeah, it's hard to make that weight at that level. Another shout out. U23 Championships Lorenzo Finn, Italian wins, I believe Johann, he was the youngest rider in the race.

A (59:16)

He's 18 years old.

B (59:18)

Pretty impressive.

A (59:19)

I mean, he's been already. I mean, he was. I mean, he was top place in the Giro under 23. I mean, he was the world champion junior last year.

B (59:32)

Yeah.

A (59:35)

So first year under 23 and. And wins the. The world Championships. And by far the best. Yeah. Big talent. Speaks perfect English, by the way. I think. I see. I'm. I mean, I'm not sure, but I think one of his parents is English because Finn. Finn is not Italian name. Yes, I'm gonna guess his. I'm gonna guess his dad is. Is British.

B (60:02)

It's like the Abel Balderstone phenomenon. He's on Red Bull rookies. I believe the.

A (60:09)

Yeah, he's on. He's on Red Bull development team or the. Yeah, development team. Yeah.

B (60:14)

So that. Yeah, keep an eye out for him. There is like a proliferation of Italian riders that speak perfect English. Did not I feel like that did not used to happen. And now like guys like Filip o Gana speak perfect English. I mean, it does show you maybe like the nerve center of professionalism. Perfect English.

A (60:29)

I mean, if you compare the English of Filip Ogana and this guy, this guy speaks English like Juana. You saw.

B (60:38)

Another funny example, like you can speaking.

A (60:40)

You can hear. You can hear. He's not 100% British, but he speaks English with the British accent the way Ayuso speaks with the American accent.

B (60:53)

I, I guess it helps if you have a parent that is a native speaker.

A (60:57)

Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I used to, I used to know not. But he lived in Atlanta. No. And yeah, we need to have him.

B (61:03)

On because I read that he left at 4 years old.

A (61:06)

So then he was probably in the, in, in the English school system or something.

B (61:11)

Yeah, the guy.

A (61:12)

There's an American school or whatever.

B (61:14)

Must have been an American school.

A (61:15)

Yeah.

B (61:16)

And then on the women's race, a writer that, I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I'd ever heard of her. Madeline. How do you even say her last name?

A (61:25)

I think it's Magdalene. Magdalene Valliere, Canadian on ef. That's a surprise winner, Spencer, and not from.

B (61:35)

It was not a Tokyo Olympic situation where there was an early break. She like ripped clear in a winning move like inside the last 30k.

A (61:44)

Yeah. I mean it was not when the favorites were going, but it was like, you know, in the last 20, 30K. And then she dropped the two other riders who were with her, which were Fisher Black. Yeah. On. On Little Trek and Mavi Garcia, you know, also. I mean, Mavi Garcia is very well known rider. He's obviously not in the prime. In her prime anymore, but she won a stage in the Tour de France and she dropped those, those women. And yeah, she's world champion. This is her only her second win ever in professional cycling. So that's definitely a surprise winner. And then. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what happened exactly in, in the women's race tactically with all the favorites, you know, like Vollering and Ferrand Prevost and Longo Borghini and so forth. So they seem to kind of hesitate and not wanting to ride with each other. You know, I mean, first you have to ride with each other to catch the people who are in front in order to have a chance to win. And nobody seems to be willing to do that. So they were left with, I mean, it was wallering sixth or seventh. So she was the first one of the favorites.

B (63:04)

Yeah.

A (63:05)

Yeah.

B (63:05)

I mean she definitely was like, she sat on a lot and then sprinted in that group. And I don't, I don't think that went over that well with a lot of the other favorites and it seemed like. Yeah, I don't, I thought it was kind of a strange place.

A (63:18)

I mean I was, I was surprised to see the, the, the statements afterwards. Like the favorite said, yeah, you know, we, we don't know what happened. We, we, you know, we just don't understand how the race went. Well.

B (63:34)

Yeah, might have answered your own question there. But it's the inverted of men's racing where if like men's racing is the pickings are slim. It's like it's feast time in women's racing because the favorites do not seem to be like willing to control the race in a way that we see. You know, it's like Slovenia is like we're going to line up and launch this guy and he's going to.

A (63:55)

And what you see, Spencer especially also and I think in women racing you see that more. Let's not forget following last year made the same kind of mistakes not in world champions is there's no communication. So they don't, they can't communicate or get instruction from the team car and volume was last year pulling, if I'm not mistaken. I think Mariana Vos was in, in the final also. And she was basically the way she was riding was not favoring Mariana Vos because Mariana was getting dropped. She was.

B (64:32)

She basically wrote her off the back.

A (64:34)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's. The world championships are definitely special because of the lack of radios. So whether that's good or bad, that's another debate. As everybody know, I'm in favor of radio communication because I think it's, you know, professional sports and you should be able to communicate with. And also it doesn't make sense, Spencer, when you have the whole year radio communication and then in the most. What's supposedly the most important race of the year, you can't. Makes no sense.

B (65:06)

It makes no sense. It, it is chaotic. Which I guess is fun to watch. I mean I'm trying to say this politically. You don't know away without making it sound bad. But the Dutch team not cooperating at the world championships seems to be like a time honored tradition. So yeah, it's. I was confused, confused on Saturday. Like why, like they should just be setting this up for vollering. Why are they not doing this? And it just kind of seems like everyone's on their own program a Little bit with the Dutch team. Yeah. But congrats to. To the. The medal. The medal winners, like, they, they earned it. There was no.

A (65:45)

Yeah, for sure.

B (65:45)

If someone wanted to be in that group, they should have been in that group. Like.

A (65:48)

Yeah, you know, I mean the fact this, this Canadian girl, Magdalene Valliere, she was away with two other writers who are, you know, very established world. Two writers and she dropped both of them. So she was the strongest. There's no discussion. So well deserved. Yeah.

B (66:07)

On a course like that too. Like pretty hard course. Not a lot of flukes on that. So. Super impressive. Anything else, Johan, you want to shout out before we take off?

A (66:16)

I think we've covered everything, Spencer. We'll be back Friday for.

B (66:20)

Friday? Yeah, for the move. Plus it's. It's now shifting. I guess we'd still have Lombardia, but it's really shifting to our weekly off season show. And you can ask questions, you can send them to Info WEDO Team. We'll answer them on the show. And we'll also be live streaming for members. There should be a link in the show notes if you want to sign up. And we'll live stream it and turn the chat on so you can ask us questions in real time. And that's like the best way to ensure your question gets asked so it doesn't get stuck in the email. But. But we'll be back on Friday for that, Johan.

A (66:51)

Okay, Spencer, thanks. Speak soon.

B (66:53)

All right, thank you and we'll talk soon.