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- [00:00]
George Hincapie
We also saw the emergence of a potential historical figure in cycling with Del Toro. Of course he didn't win it, but the way he dominated the whole Giro was being such a young rider. And then again at the end of the year, winning four to five races in a row was just exciting to watch. The emergence of American or Mexican superstar that we're going to be watching for a long time.
- [00:29]
Johan Berniel
Everybody, welcome back to the Move podcast.
- [00:30]
Spencer Martin
I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel and George Hincapi and we are going through our season highlights of the 2025 season. We're going to do a little bit of a structured format this year. We have George and I have our.
- [00:43]
Johan Berniel
Three favorite moments from the year and.
- [00:45]
Spencer Martin
Johan is going to critique and add to it as we go through our list. We're also going to talk about our favorite races that we don't cover in that and just talk about the the main story of the season.
- [00:56]
Johan Berniel
Unfortunately, or I guess fortunately if you.
- [00:58]
Spencer Martin
Like him, Taday Pugach won a lot. So we're going to talk it up how much he won and really put into context what he is doing. Before we do that, let's take a quick moment to talk about our partners for today's episode. Then we'll be right back everybody. This episode is brought to you by Huell. Even with my kids off school for the week, my mornings are still incredibly.
- [01:18]
Johan Berniel
Busy, if not busier than normal because.
- [01:20]
Spencer Martin
I've been running around going to and.
- [01:21]
Johan Berniel
From the airport and and to make.
- [01:23]
Spencer Martin
Sure I'm getting the breakfast I need.
- [01:25]
Johan Berniel
I'm reaching for Huell's Black Edition High Protein on the Go Complete Meal replacement. It's got 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, and it's gluten free with no artificial sweeteners. Basically a complete meal that's ready to go. My go to favorite right now is Iced coffee. Smooth, not too sweet and keeps me going all morning. Hu makes healthy eating simple. And they've also just launched the Target stores nationwide which is key because I'm in Washington D.C. this week and I might have to go to Target and get some because I am I'm withdrawing from my Huel. I need that iced coffee meal replacement. I'm starving. I'm going to bonk during this episode. So try both Black Edition Ready to Drink and Daily Greens RTD products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with our exclusive code the move@huell.com themove that's H U E L.com themove for 15% off today, everybody.
- [02:18]
Spencer Martin
This episode is brought to you by Roka.
- [02:20]
Johan Berniel
Roka has invented a completely new class of eyewear. Glasses optimized for performance. No other eyewear brand can keep up.
- [02:26]
Spencer Martin
With what these guys are doing.
- [02:28]
Johan Berniel
They just keep making their stuff better and better. And their prescription glasses have the exact same technology as their performance sunglasses, which is key for someone like me. I can't see anything without my prescription glasses. So if, if it's a foggy morning day in London, I want to go on a run. It's too dark for those sunglasses. I can just wear my prescription Roka sunglasses. They're not slipping, they're not fogging, they're incredible. And Roka glasses are unbelievably lightweight. You'll literally forget you're wearing them. The best opt optics on the market. No other sunglasses can compare. Crystal clear, fog resistant, scratch resistant. And as I said, I can't do anything without my prescription glasses. Well, good thing Roka makes prescription sunglasses. I use the Roka Torino glasses when I ride. Just used them in my race against George at El Tour de Tucson. And they performed as needed, keeping the sun out, not fogging up in the cold morning temps and staying on insecure even in the crazy battle for the crosswinds. Also, they're hand built in the move in Lance's hometown of Austin, Texas. And new at Roca is their triumphant program for their optical frames. You can try at home before you buy. That's key for me. I love doing that. And they have snow goggles. They took everything they know about performance eyewear and built a world class product. Best magnetic lenses I've ever seen.
- [03:38]
Spencer Martin
It's, it's about ski season.
- [03:40]
Johan Berniel
You're going to want to get these snow goggles. So if you're a move listener, you get 20% off. Just go to roka.com that's R O K A and enter code the move at checkout for 20% off. Get those snow goggles right now before they sell out.
- [03:54]
Spencer Martin
All right, we're back. George, I gave you a homework assignment to do in between our, our very fast and difficult riding this weekend at El Tour de Tucson. Johan, you, you didn't. You should be happy you missed out on it. You can say I probably would have won that because I'm Belgian and I would have dominated the crosswinds while Georgia.
- [04:14]
Johan Berniel
I checked out. I checked out both of your Strava and I saw the average beat. There is no way for me what.
- [04:21]
George Hincapie
Was my average speed? I didn't look at it.
- [04:22]
Johan Berniel
41 points. 40 over 40 kilometers. You're crazy, George. You're still. I mean, you're still a professional cyclist. Yeah, that's.
- [04:29]
George Hincapie
That's dying. I haven't written 100 miles in a long time, and those guys are riding fast.
- [04:34]
Johan Berniel
160 kilometers. At more than 40 kilometers average. Oh, no. Oh, no. And I guess it was not flat.
- [04:41]
George Hincapie
Yeah, it's rolling, but it's. There's no big mountains. They're all big. But, yeah, it was. It was hard.
- [04:48]
Spencer Martin
Do you know who George beat? Quinn Simmons.
- [04:52]
George Hincapie
Oh, yeah. He was riding with his wife, though.
- [04:54]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, he still would. He's finished, like, 10 minutes behind me. I mean, the guy probably averaged 23 miles an hour, like, with his wife. I think he did, like, two more hours after that, which I actually would say. I was thinking about that on the run into Tucson. It was so hard, and I was like, man, if I was a pro. I left the tack on two more hours to get a good workout, and I was. Was really at my limit. It was a humbling experience. Reminder that cycling is suffering. There's no way around it. But before we get into this, I'm just going to recap the season really quick in the quickest way possible. Like, in a minute. So if you don't remember, the monuments kicked off well. Strada Bianchi, not a monument. Tate Pagaccar won it. No spoilers for next year, too. Sorry. Tom Pickock was second. Milano Sanremo rolls around.
- [05:40]
Johan Berniel
Matthew Vanderpoel takes first blood.
- [05:43]
Spencer Martin
He wins the first monument of the year. Filippo Ghana second, which I honestly forgot about. Went back and watched that race this morning. Very good finale. Pagachar third, Tua Flanders, Tada Pagachar wins. Mads Pettersson second, Vanderpoel third. Perube. Matthew Vanderpoel wins after Pagatra rides into the ditch on the cobbles. Pagatra still finishes second. Mads Patterson third. Mads Petterson. Very good year.
- [06:05]
Johan Berniel
Liege.
- [06:05]
Spencer Martin
Best on Liege. Matt Tadipogacha wins. Julia Ciccone second. Ben Healy third. Il Lombardia Tadipogacha wins. Remco Evanopol second, Michael Storr third. The Grand Tours. Simon Yates wins The Giro d'.
- [06:18]
George Hincapie
Italia.
- [06:19]
Spencer Martin
Spectacular race with Isaac del Toro second. Richard Carapaz third. Tour de France. Tada Pagatra wins. Jonas Van der Gard second, Florian Lipowitz third. Valta Espana. Jonas Finnegaard wins. Joelo made a second. Tom Pitcock third. Pretty impressive right there. Looking, reflecting on that. But, George, what was your favorite moment of the 2025 season.
- [06:43]
George Hincapie
Well, you named some of them already now in the first minute of the show. But chronologically I'd start off with Sano. You know, there was a big talk about poker chart going for it. We finally saw maybe the team not executing a perfect ride, getting to the suppressor with one or two guys instead of the whole team. They're strong guys. We saw van der Poel not, you know, not backing down from the domination Poguchar showed the last couple years. Attacking him over the top of the Poguchar. Like you mentioned Ghana's ride, coming back, holding his pace, you know, steady pace throughout the first two climbs, coming back and being in contention for the win with the two icons of the sport. So for me that was certainly the most exciting. Well, along with my other two that I'm going to pick. But one of the three top moments of the year in my opinion.
- [07:36]
Spencer Martin
I agree. I thought this was the best race of the year and actually made me question if races should be easier. Like all these monuments are so hard, it kind of makes them boring. And then you think, I always thought Sanremo was a snooze fest up until a few years ago. It's like, man, like nothing happens. But it's perfect because all these guys like you, Felipe Pagani going against Tada Pagacha going against Matthew Vanderpoel. I mean Johan, what, what did you think about San Remo this year?
- [08:01]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, I had it written down here as my best one day race of, of the year also.
- [08:06]
Wow.
- [08:08]
Yeah. If you look at Flanders, okay, very hard Bogachar wins. Very hard Bogachar wins. Lombardi, very hard Bogachar wins. And then Rube, you know, he was an experience but he was up there. So. No, I mean, I think, I think Milan San Remo was the most exciting one day race of the season in my opinion because we didn't know who was going to win until they got to the last to the finish basically because you know, at the end Ghana came back so he was, he had still an option. There was this suspensive if Bogacha was going to be able to shake off Vanderpool or not. And Van der Poel counter attacks on the top of the podgio. So I think it was the most exciting one day race of the season by far. And not that, I mean listen, I like also when the strongest guy wins and dominates and shows, you know, a demonstration of power. I like that too. But you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie if you know, Milan San Remo was, was nail biting until the finish.
- [09:08]
George Hincapie
Yeah, I think it was the first time that se, like this season that we saw somebody over overtaking Poker and attacking him when he was clearly at the limit, where everybody was like, whoa, what just happened? You know, so that was really exciting to watch that. And like you mentioned, I mean, Vanderpoel leading the sprint out with 250 meters to go with, you know, Ghana and Poker Char sitting on his wheel. So the amount of confidence and power he displayed there at the finish was just really incredible to watch.
- [09:37]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, I mean, George, do you watch? I, I was shocked rewatching the race, like, how early it's kicking off. Like those guys going away on the Chapressa and it like almost doesn't resemble the Lance Andremo that you won with that or that you took, you know, Mark Cavendish to the finish and then he won. Like, do you watch that? And you're like, I don't even know what I'm looking at here.
- [09:59]
George Hincapie
Yeah, I mean, the suppress, I mean, it's just if you do the suppress and training, it's like you barely even notice it. It's, you know, 4 or 5%, not very difficult at all. But once you get there after, you know, 230km, it's a whole different story. And just to watch the aggression that these guys go into it at, I mean, not to mention you, you just. Me. You just said a few, few minutes ago how San Remo was a snoof it snooze fest, if anybody. And Johan knows, I think he'll back me up. Riding Sano is far from snoof fest. It is so scary, so stressful. Yeah. I mean, once you get to the coast road, you're going 50k an hour. Plus the windy roads, everybody knows exactly when they need to be the front. So that makes the fight a lot worse. You know, there's, it's just, it's. I still have nightmares waking up from the position battle to the presser and.
- [10:50]
Johan Berniel
It'S just, it's also, George, one of the reasons why, I mean, you just said, or was it Spencer who said, you know, they didn't have an ideal position uae. I mean, that's the reason, you know, this, this approach to the Cipressa. Everybody knows it. No, most of the teams and most of the riders have done it multiple times. They've all done it in recon several times. But then you get there at race speed and it's never the same. It's. There's always different things happening and you may be as strong as you want. There is no way you can have all of your guys at the bottom of the Chipresa in the first 20 riders. That's never going to happen. So, you know, by definition, uae, they have to kind of initially slow down a bit to have a few guys come up again because they've lost position. And, you know, before you know it, you're. You're on the top of the Tipresa. But still, they were still able to do that and still attacked and. And made that, made that split, you know, so. So, yeah, I mean, I. I think that. I mean, in this peloton and with this, especially with the strength of Pogachar. I agree with you, Spencer. Milan San Remo is actually a course which is hard enough because of the distance and the hills, but it's also accessible to a lot of people. And at the end, it's. I mean, the last two years is still all. Probably always the strongest guy who wins.
- [12:13]
George Hincapie
Yeah. We always say San Remo is one of the hardest races in the world to win, but the easiest World cup to finish. Oh, yeah, because you can just. If you're just floating there and you're using it for miles, you can just get to the suppressor, ride your pace and ride into the Grupeto. It's not like Flanders where it's just climb after climb over bay where it's section after section just getting beat down like San Remo. You can just ride the 300km. In fact, back in our day, there was a lot of the GC riders would just ride it to get a big day in and not even worry about sprint. But. But to go for the win is a completely different story.
- [12:45]
Spencer Martin
Do you guys remember Silva and Delier was on the front for like four hours of this race? I'd forgotten that. I was like, wow, that. That's a turn of work.
- [12:53]
Johan Berniel
I remember Spencer, we. When I was at onse in 95 Milan San Remo, we, you know, we had Lauren Jalam who was in amazing shape. He was the favorite of the race. He was our team leader. And we with team Onse, we took when there was a breakaway and then we took control of the race after 40k or something and rode the whole day, the whole. There was one rider of our team. One rider. He did two. He did one pool of 200 kilometers.
- [13:22]
Spencer Martin
That's crazy, man.
- [13:26]
Johan Berniel
And then. And then. Yeah, and then, you know, still it didn't break, you know, and there was still typical, typical approach to the Poo and then Yellow Bear attacked with fondriest, I guess. And one in the sprint against fundriest.
- [13:39]
Spencer Martin
What would you guys. So he wants to win this sometime. It's as you said, the chapressa. It's really hard because you can't get your team where you want them to be. And George noted that it's not that steep. So also there was like a cycling journalist who didn't race who was like, you know, you ride these climbs, they're not that hard. Like, I don't know what the big deal is. Like, yeah, dude, do them at 600 watts. Didn't tell me how hard it feels. But what advice? Like, how does he crack this nut? Like, how's he going to win this race?
- [14:07]
George Hincapie
I mean, it's got to be. It's not like he was far off by the wind. I mean, he was still there, right there fighting for the, for the finish. But I don't think he could have raced a different. The race any differently. Maybe like we mentioned, he could have had more guys directly at the bottom of the suppressor, but Vanderpoel was so strong that I don't think that would have even made a much of a difference. Yeah, it's got to be the wind conditions got to be perfect. And perhaps a tailwind on the Suppress Kogio. But I mean, if Van Paul shows up like the way he did this season, it'll be. It'd be tough to beat him again.
- [14:40]
Johan Berniel
I think one of the, one of the scenarios could be. George, I don't know if you, if you agree with me, but, you know, to make, to make Milan San Remo harder could be, for example, if it rains all day. Yeah, really bad weather.
- [14:54]
George Hincapie
Yeah.
- [14:55]
Johan Berniel
Is really good in bad weather. And that wears you off more. And, and that in that way maybe he can get away on the podger. That's basically the only thing I can see. Because even if he could, let's say if Vanderpool is a little bit less. I mean, and every year, you know, there's all. They're always going to show up in some kind of different form. But you know, right now it's pretty clear Pugach is going to attack on the Cipresa and Vanderpool and the rest is going to try to follow him. If they can't follow him, he's still not gone. Because that's actually the hard part. If he, if he gets away on the GPresa, it's not, he's not won yet. You know, it's. I think it's Going to be more difficult because then there's going to be organization behind. So I think if it's really bad weather conditions, that might be one of the scenarios that he can drop everybody on the podcast.
- [15:43]
George Hincapie
And if we look at it, I mean, it was bad weather conditions at the start this year, but it's such a long race and you basically go from one atmosphere to another and the weather changes all the time. So. But like you said, if it rained the whole time, it'd be a different story.
- [15:57]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, can be some cloud seeding. UAE invested in cloud seeding on the Mediterranean coast. But I. I tried to pick stuff that I thought George would not pick. So my favorite. My favorite's probably Sanremo, but my favorite for this exercise, stage nine of the Gird Italia. That was the Strada Bianchi stage. Absolute bananas. Was. Was actually key for the final, how things played out in the final week. Wout Van Art beats Isaac del Toro. I mean, for. At the time, I was thinking, man, del Toro is unbeatable. He gets stuck on the front, has to pull. Looking back, you're like, well, that was key for the. For the gc. He almost wins. There was a moment where I thought he wins the Giro d' Italia because he goes away with Van Aert, looks back, claims he doesn't see his teammate, his teammates on the ground. Juana Yousso rides away from him. Just the drama there. And then Van Aert winning. The sprint up, like, into the iconic finish in Sienna was just incredible. I thought that was. There's actually another stage from this race that is also thrilling. But that was the first moment of the season in Grand Tours, at least where I was like, wow. Like, this is. This is cismo. It's happening right now. The season's alive. That was. I thought that was a great stage.
- [17:11]
George Hincapie
Yeah, I would agree with you. That was super exciting. And also was, you know, the first. The first day that Ben out actually, you know, came across the line with a win. I mean, he went. He was so good in the classics, but just not quite good enough. I mean, top four and basically the biggest one day written in the world. Like, always there, always fighting. So I think as a fan of the sport, it was great to see him get the win in the. The arguably one of the most iconic stages of the Giro d'. Italia. And you can. So you can see how excited he was about it. It was.
- [17:41]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, I was going to say, George, you could see what it meant to him. You know, like, it's. You could say, well, it' A stage in a grand tour. You know, Walt Von Art has won many stages in grand tours, but this meant the world to him, you know, but first of all, the win there and then, you know, to win after having struggled to come back after many crashes. No, I think, I think. I agree. It was, it was quite an iconic stage, that one. One to remember.
- [18:06]
Spencer Martin
I'm a huge Van Art fan. I gotta admit, I thought he was toast. I was like, he's gonna get dropped by Del Toro in this climb. It was awesome.
- [18:12]
George Hincapie
Yeah, you can see how. How hard he actually went. I mean, he was. He was on the full limit, staying on his wheel, but he knew if he can just get over the top of him, the chance of him winning are going to be really high. Which is much easier said than done on that climb, because I've done it a couple times. It's super steep, super hard. But, yeah, he pulled off a great.
- [18:29]
Spencer Martin
Victory also on that stage right of the day. Nobody noticed at the time. I actually met this man in real life last week. Simon Yates gets fifth, a minute behind Vanart. Like, looking back, you're like, well, that's, that's a jir to tell you winning ride right there. Because he finishes ahead of, you know, finishes ahead of a. Who didn't end up factoring. But like Bernal, his brother, Adam Yates, all those guys are further back. Simon Yates limits losses to Del Toro on a stage that you would think would cause him a lot of problems. But he, he did a great job there. George, what is your second pick?
- [19:04]
George Hincapie
Second pick. I'm going to go with the obvious choice. Paris Rebe. Just. I. Like you said, you watch San Remo. I watched both San Remo and Roubaix again this morning and just, just again going back to the aggression. Like, these guys, they go so early now. They go all in, like already at the Ehrenberg, which is over 80 kilometers ago, you see Vanderpoel at the front. Him and Poker Charge is going at each other like a boxing match. Really interesting tactical dynamic. When Phillipson Bridges back up after his crash, all of a sudden it's two teammates against one. Then, of course, Poguchar makes that one mistake on the right hand turn with 20, 20k to go or something like that. But that's Roubaix. I mean, at that point in a, in such a hard, I think, the hardest race in the world, like, you make those small mistakes that you're not used to seeing a guy like Poker Chart make and, you know, Chain popped off, he loses 30 seconds. Instantly and Vanderpoel just rides away from him. But technically, Vanderpoel could have made that same mistake because he was on his wheel. He could have followed him, but he corrected and won the race right there in that right hand turn. So for me, it was just the drama of the crashes, how hard it was, the team dynamics again. W. Sliding into fourth place is always there fighting out with Matt Peterson for the Sprint. Just people coming in on fumes. I mean, there's no other race like it where you just see riders, the best riders in the world coming in one by one by one.
- [20:30]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, and I think it speaks, it speaks a lot to Pogachar, George. I mean, who would have ever predicted a guy who does it the first time in a Grand Tour rider? Right. I mean, okay, he's more than a Grand Tour rider, but you know, Paris Roubaix is probably the most specialist race in the world. You know, you can't, you can say Flanders. You know, if you're a really good rider, you can get away because it's so hard. You know, there's climbs if you're positioned properly. But Paris Dubai is special. It's a different kind of cycling. But yet Bogachar gets in there and he's up there straight away with the best in the world and is in a position to win it. You know, know, I personally think, I don't know what you think, George. I mean, without the crash, it would still have been Matthew Vanderpool who won it probably in the Sprint. I don't think they would be. Have been able to drop each other. But I think now we have to seriously, seriously consider, I mean, it's, I think it's a fact that Bhagachar is going to win one day.
- [21:25]
George Hincapie
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I agree. I think they would have probably gotten to the line together. Although. Well, that's what makes Perry Roubaix so special is, you know, you have to have so much luck as well. We saw Vanderpool 10k later have to get changes bikes. Yeah, most likely. If Poker Charter did not crash, would it be weighted? Probably not, because it's. You have your bike has to stand up to it as well. So it could have been a whole different race without that one little mistake on that right hand turn. So I, I couldn't say that Vanderpoel was better than Poguchar. I mean, I think they would have arrived together for sure. Yeah.
- [21:59]
Spencer Martin
And yeah, I think Johan's right. I think there's a path, there's a clear path. For Pagacha winning Roubaix versus Sanremo, which is crazy to think or to say, and that's probably the worst he'll ever be at Roubaix because this is his first time doing it. He's only going to get better. You could just see how physically, like, beat up he was compared to Vanderpoel, who's very used to riding that. Do you. Did you see you were talking about how on the race was. I think the first three guys leaving the Arnberg Forest were van der Poel, in this order. I think it was Vanderpoel, Pagacha, Pedersen, and that's the final three. That is unbelievable. That's like essentially the selection has made a hundred. 100 kilometers in the finish.
- [22:38]
George Hincapie
Yeah. And don't forget, we lost Patterson because of. Also mechanical. He got a tire. He could have most likely been there as well with the classics. He was riding how strong he was. Ended up getting third. But, you know, he got that flat tire at the worst time.
- [22:51]
Spencer Martin
Going back to the season, he's actually not secretly because we noticed him doing it, but he had a very good year. I would almost say underrated. My second pick that I don't think George has picked is stage 21 of the Tour de France. I thought, what's funny is we watched that together and you're like, you're excited because it's the end of the Tour. It's like last day of school feeling. And then I just thought that stage was unbelievable. The changes they made made it come alive. And then to have Pagachar in the yellow jersey, I know he wasn't. It's not a fair fight, but it was the only time of the year he's dropped. And he's dropped by Wout Van Art, who then solos to the finish for the win. I thought that was an incredible stage. And then so for Van Art to have Mateo Jorgensen and Victor Campenaerts in that front crew group working with them, like, I thought that was an incredible team effort. Great stage. One of the most thrilling stages of the year.
- [23:43]
George Hincapie
Yeah, I would agree. That was really exciting to watch. You can look at it. There are a couple different ways where a lot of, I would say 70% of the riders came in thinking, if they neutralize this race, we're not. We're not even going to bother racing. So in that sense, maybe perhaps it took a little bit away from it. But I mean, a guy like, wow, that. That. That course is made for a guy like Wild Ben Art, and he really. The team really needed that victory to come out, you know, with. With confidence and just come out with another success. And it was, like you said, just super exciting to watch the amount of people watching, you know, seeing Jurgensen up there and helping him out. It was. It was a great stage.
- [24:22]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's, you know. Well, I kind of. I mean, and you said it, Spencer. You know, it's not. It was probably not a fair fight. You know, people say, well, the only time that Bogacha was dropped was by Walt Von Art.
- [24:35]
Spencer Martin
It's true.
- [24:35]
Johan Berniel
But we all know that Bogacha has been giving everything for the last week, and Vote has been working towards this stage, you know, but still, what he couldn't do, for example, in. In instead, in the gravel stage in the Giro, he had to hang on for dear life with Del Toro. He turned it around, and in that stage in the Tour, he. He dropped, I think, for the confidence of Walt Van Aert. That stage is. Is a milestone, in my opinion. You know, it's the. The power. The power he demonstrated that day when that. With that attack. And I mean, if you look at those legs, I mean, they were on the verge of exploding, but, man, you could see the power out of every pedal stroke. And, yeah, I was really happy to see him take that stage. Was, you know, I think the whole peloton. I mean, if you. Then, if you see after the finish, a lot of riders of other teams go and congratulate a rider like Walt Von Aert, that speaks volumes for the kind of guy he is.
- [25:35]
George Hincapie
Yeah, not only that, but, like, visually, you know, coming on to the most iconic avenue in the entire world, or one of them on a race that typically is a sprint or perhaps some years of time trial. Coming in solo, there's probably very few feelings where you can get that, you know, sort of adrenaline going, where the whole world is watching you come on to the Champions Day solo, winning what probably the hardest stage of. The hardest last stage of the Tour Tour de France in a long time.
- [26:03]
Spencer Martin
And with 70% of the writers sitting up, it actually kind of gave it a weird, almost dystopian future feel where if you were an ultra capitalist watching this, you're like, ooh, this could be like a version of cycling where we have, like, the six best riders duking it out without all the other riders in the way. Like, it had a kind. It did have kind of a strange feel to it, but just with all. All the fans there packing, I mean, that neighborhood is, like, so iconic and beautiful where you. What Did Wiggins call the church? He called it like the museum. He's like, of course. And they're going by the museum, but. But up by the museum with all those people. It was just like so cool.
- [26:43]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, but you know that the format, Spencer, the format you just said, you know, the best writers amongst each other. You know, it's funny enough. I mean, I just watched that little video. I don't know if you saw the little video. They, they, they published it today. Of that four man race they did in Andorra.
- [26:59]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, it was.
- [27:01]
Johan Berniel
Yeah. No, I don't want more of that. No, no. Yeah. Was Roglidge, Pogachar, Jonas and Del Toro. No, no, it's. There's no excitement there.
- [27:17]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, no more of that, please.
- [27:20]
Johan Berniel
They're probably going to do it again. But I know half of Hondura was on the streets, but.
- [27:26]
Spencer Martin
Well, there's nothing to do if you live in Andorra. You're coming out for that race. But let's take a quick mid mid show ad break and then we'll get George's third pick, everybody.
- [27:35]
Johan Berniel
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Spencer Martin
Covered all my bases.
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Johan Berniel
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- [28:52]
Spencer Martin
I've had a crazy past few weeks of travel. Even just over the last few days.
- [28:56]
Johan Berniel
I flew back from the UK, went to Tucson, did the 102 mile L tour to Tucson against George. By the way, let's keep listening to find out who won that race and then on to Washington D.C. for Thanksgiving week. Normally I'd be wrecked by this travel, but this time no heavy legs, no swelling and fresh legs upon arrival. And the only reason that happened is because I wore hollow socks on every one of those flights. Hollow socks are a game changer. They're the first compression socks that don't force you to choose between comfort and functionality and as a result are the only compression socks I've ever been able to wear for an entire travel day without ripping them off in disgust. And they use ultra soft baby alpaca fiber compression socks is comfortable honestly should.
- [29:35]
Spencer Martin
Be against the WADA code.
- [29:36]
Johan Berniel
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- [30:06]
Spencer Martin
This episode is brought to you by Tushy.
- [30:08]
Johan Berniel
If you've ever traveled to Japan, the.
- [30:10]
Spencer Martin
First thing you notice is that America, I hate to break this to everybody, has officially lost a toilet race.
- [30:15]
Johan Berniel
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- [30:19]
Spencer Martin
They seem to have it all over there.
- [30:20]
Johan Berniel
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Spencer Martin
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Johan Berniel
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- [31:07]
Spencer Martin
So if you've been on the fence.
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Johan Berniel
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- [31:41]
Spencer Martin
All right, we're back. George, what is your third highlight of the season?
- [31:45]
George Hincapie
So I pretty, pretty much focused my top three moments of the year in the first like the first real month of racing which is, you know, March, April. So my third one was going to be, well is Amstel Gold race just because we, we saw what we thought was going to be another domination by Boguchar. Then all of a sudden as you start seeing some kinks in his armor and Remco second race back after you know, coming back from a horrible crash in the winter, slowly clawing his way back and the guy that nobody expected to win wins the race, almost wins the race in a super exciting sprint. So I, I chose the ones that were, you know, we saw Poguchar most likely going to be one of the guys to winning but ended up being not really surprised but not didn't get the victory. I thought that skill most getting that imps goal race was massive for his team, exciting for all the classics fans out there. And seeing Remco come back to such a high level after being, you know, coming back from such a bad injury was super exciting as well.
- [32:51]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, huge, I mean huge for Schumacher. That's a good pick by the way. That's one I probably would have glossed over but was the last 40k was you could argue maybe some of the most exciting racing we saw all season just in terms of we didn't know what was going to happen and we were all text George is like he's good.
- [33:08]
Johan Berniel
Remco's got him.
- [33:09]
Spencer Martin
What's crazy is Remco mows him down and then doesn't and he would have lost the race if not for Skelmosa. Like Skelmos is the forgotten man there. Forgot. You did an amazing job for that with that sprint. But if you think of the right. So who beat pagachar in 2025? It was Vanderpoel, Van Art and the race we just talked about, which wasn't really a fair fight, but still a big win. Evan, a pull on the tts. He's probably maybe the best time trials of all time. And then Skelmoza, I mean that is like elite company he put himself into as he's in kind of a battle with his team at the moment. Leadership battle with the team. Like that's a pretty good feather to have in the cap. Hey, I went toe to toe with Pagachar and won in a one day race. By the way. Just if you're wondering who to select for the tour friends.
- [33:54]
George Hincapie
Yeah, which we've seen the guys like Remco and Pogochar beat. You know, a week before we saw Remco be Van Art in a one up sprint. I mean one of the best sprinters in the world. We've seen Pogachar beat Vanderpoel in sprints. I mean these guys are clearly very sprint savvy. And I just didn't even know Scelmos can sprint.
- [34:13]
Spencer Martin
I know when he came around these.
- [34:15]
George Hincapie
Guys, we were all kind of in shock.
- [34:16]
Johan Berniel
He didn't even think it himself. I think I remember after, after the stage, I mean me and my, my son, my son came with this clip, you know, like I think he said it like five times. He said, I think I won. I think I won. I think I won. He could not believe it. Man, it was amazing victory. Amazing victory.
- [34:37]
Spencer Martin
So my third pick and I swear I'm not trying to get a job at the UCI. A highly paid, very easy job with this. And this is an oddball pick. A lot of good stuff that we'll talk about before we go. Promotion, relegation. I thought was pretty interesting.
- [34:51]
Johan Berniel
I.
- [34:51]
Spencer Martin
It might have been me and four other people that enjoyed this. But before the season started I was very dismissive of astonish chances to even stay in the World Tour. And they crushed it. Like one of the best teams of the season, of the year. They hired these people to go through a pretty interesting idea actually. And you take like, okay, these are your best riders at 5 minutes. These riders are best at 5 minute power. Put them in races where their 5 minute power can help them get points. Like it's all about points all the time. And so they completely retooled the way they were doing team selection. It worked. They stay in the World Tour easily like cruising and then Unox. I thought it was amazing to see that team obviously did it at the expense of Kofedis. Sad for Kofedis, but George, your friend tour who shop put together a pretty good program there. And I personally think like what they're doing is everything I like about cycling. And they're very analytical about it. But then they're not overly analytical and they tell you exactly what they're doing. Which is, which I think shows confidence because it's like. Oh like they published before the Tour. It was like 30 pages of their thesis going into the race, their equipment and it's like, well, we don't care if you know, because we think we can execute better than you. So I thought that watching those two teams stay in the World Tour, then one get into the World Tour, that was a great season long narrative.
- [36:15]
George Hincapie
Yeah, I would agree. I mean Astana ended up finishing what, like fifth place?
- [36:19]
Spencer Martin
I think they might have even been higher than that in this year.
- [36:23]
Johan Berniel
I think this year they were the fourth team, this fourth best team.
- [36:26]
Spencer Martin
Do you know where they were last.
- [36:27]
George Hincapie
Year going from just, you know, like you said, Spencer's hanging on for dear life to being well into the ranks four team. Obviously they put a lot of emphasis on getting points and sending the right riders there and it's is changing a lot of the, the strategies in terms of the way teams select riders to go to races and it's going to be interesting to watch in the years to come.
- [36:47]
Johan Berniel
Yeah. So if you see where Astana is at the beginning of the season, especially looking at their roster, I think, you know, if you look at what the program they have to do, all the World Tour races, it was going to be very difficult. But you know, I agree, Spencer, they definitely turn it around. They went to the right races with the right riders and they were, I mean they also, I mean they were in the obligation obviously to, to, you know, go to a few very important races with a weak roster and then send their strongest roster to other races where they were sure to score points. But yeah, I've said it already many times, Spencer, you know, I think Vinokurov has more lives than a cat. Is it seven or nine lives that a cat has?
- [37:32]
Spencer Martin
I think it's nine. Vinikov might have more vinegar.
- [37:35]
Johan Berniel
Has an undetermined in the amount of lives he's a survivor. Always, always gets back up.
- [37:41]
Spencer Martin
And they, I mean they were in a Bad spot too, because the team xds, the sponsor wasn't going to renew if they weren't World Tour. So they had essentially everyone on the team was on a one year deal, which probably helped actually. As much as we don't. As much as you don't want to think it being on a one year deal probably does motivate you. Whether that's good for you long term is up. Don't put everyone on a one year deal, George, thinking that that is magic bullet. But I just was an interesting twist to the season and then to kind of before we get into. We should deep dive into Pagatro's numbers before we go, but before we just to cover some of the bases, what was your guys's favorite Grand Tour of the season?
- [38:21]
Johan Berniel
For me, undoubtedly the Giro. The Giro was the best race of the year in my opinion. We didn't know until stage 20 who was going to win. And then a guy who nobody thought he could win, Simon Yates. And it's been a while, I think was his last grand two. I mean he won the Vuelta, right? He won The Vuelta in 2018. In 2018. So seven years ago. Yeah. And especially also because leading up to the, to the Giro and during the Giro he was there, but he's never been dominating, dominating. And, and that's also why I think both Carapas and El Toro, I think they underestimated Simon Yates because until that stage 20, he had never been able to put the hurt on those guys. He was there, lost a bit of time, but always close. Then he had that one incredible day. And then of course, you know, having Walt von Art up front was key for, for the win. But man, what a, what a story. Yeah. On. On the same stage, on the same climb where he lost the Giro many years ago also in 2018, I think he lost the Giro there to, to Chris Froome turns it around and wins the Giro in, you know, I would say in the fall of his career, basically. So. So yeah, for me that was without a doubt the, the most exciting and the most beautiful Grand Tour of the season.
- [39:52]
George Hincapie
Yeah, I would have to agree with Johan just watching that stage. Perfect tactics by Bisma. A lot of us fans watching and I'm wondering how they can let him go with a guy like, wow, Bernard up the road waiting for him, you know, just, just so many different things going on. And we also saw the emergence of a, you know, potential, you know, historical figure in cycling. With Del Toro, of course he didn't win it, but the way he dominated the whole Giro was being such a young rider, and then again at the end of the year, winning, you know, four to five races in a row was just exciting to watch. The emergence of American or Mexican superstar that we're going to be watching for for a long time. And, of course, seeing Yates pull off the incredible victory, like Johan said, after such a devastating defeat to Froome, being able to come back and do that and win the. The pink jersey on that stage is. Was really iconic.
- [40:48]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, I think.
- [40:49]
George Hincapie
I agree.
- [40:50]
Johan Berniel
If one.
- [40:50]
Spencer Martin
If we didn't agree on this, we've got problems. But, yeah, this was by far the best Grand Tour. I. I just listened to Simon talk about it. It's kind of interesting, I thought. And he was right in many respects. He's like, you know, I wasn't the strongest rider in the race. I needed them to hesitate and look at each other. He knew the moment they were together that he had it. He thought having Wout Van Art up the road cracked him. All of that's true. But it actually, if we think about it, Johan, was he just the best climber in the race, and it was that simple. And that was the hardest climb in the race. And he went up it faster than anybody else.
- [41:24]
Johan Berniel
I think that day he was the best climber. But.
- [41:28]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, I mean, yeah, because he wasn't the best. That's the tricky thing about this race is, yeah, he was not better than them before that.
- [41:35]
George Hincapie
Or we can look at, perhaps he learned from his mistakes. Think about in the Giro when he lost the Froome, how dominant he was throughout the whole three weeks. I mean, he showed his cards. I think in the back of his mind, he's like, he's going to do the complete opposite of that, not show his cards, stay within fighting, you know, stay within a fighting chance and put it all on the line for that stage. So I think he learned his lesson and played the whole race around that.
- [41:59]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, Yeah, I think. I mean, if you would ask him, I think it was. I mean, it was in the back of their minds, but I think it was a surprise. Also, I wouldn't say he was much better than them on Quality Finest, but, you know, we could all see that. That Del Toro and Carapas were riding negatively because let's not forget, he got dropped a few times. Now, we don't know if he got dropped or he. If he just kept his own pace, because he actually knew, I think he was probably the only one of the three guys who did that. Did that climb in a race before. Yeah, because not Karapas neither Karapas or Del Toro had done it in a race. They may have reconed it, but, and, but again, you know, I mean, I repeat, the big mistake was both EF and UAE letting that group of world vanart take such a big advantage. You know, once you see that vanart is in that group and you're, you're not, it's still okay as long as you don't give them that much time. I think the big mistake was to give them 10 minutes. If, if they, if they keep that group at five minutes, vanart would not have made it over the top with the first, with the favorites.
- [43:14]
Spencer Martin
I still don't understand it. I don't really. And then Del Toro said he did. They didn't even tell him what Van Art was up the road. But.
- [43:21]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, well, yeah, I, I don't know. I mean I didn't, I didn't hear that interview.
- [43:27]
Spencer Martin
I, I think that is a good point. We've gotten very skeptical of a lot of these poll quotes.
- [43:33]
Johan Berniel
Yeah. You know, I didn't listen to the whole interview, but, but I think, I think initially he knew. And I mean, we all know, I mean, listen, if you're on the limit and you're cross eyed and you know, you're focused on, okay, I have to be with Carapas here on the, on the finest, that's an obsession. And you kind of forget what's happening in the front, you know, and all of a sudden say, oh, vanart is in the front. Anyways, I think, you know, I, I agree, George. We, I think we have witnessed the, the coming to the front of, of a writer. We're going to talk about a lot in the next coming years. I mean, there's this pure class and how many races did he win? 18 races this year? I think eight.
- [44:14]
George Hincapie
Yeah, something crazy.
- [44:15]
Johan Berniel
18 races. I mean it's.
- [44:17]
Spencer Martin
Wow.
- [44:18]
Johan Berniel
And there's only two, two riders who won more, more races. I think. No, it's, it's got Char and me probably.
- [44:27]
Spencer Martin
I think it's Paul Monier. But those are, those are not the same level of races.
- [44:33]
Johan Berniel
Yeah. Yeah, but I think. Did Bogachar and Merlino win 20 races?
- [44:38]
Spencer Martin
Merlier won 16 races.
- [44:40]
Johan Berniel
Oh, 16 races. Okay.
- [44:42]
Spencer Martin
He might have done 20 races total. So that's still an incredible win percentage.
- [44:47]
George Hincapie
That really is now.
- [44:49]
Spencer Martin
But yeah, I mean, especially to do that after falling on your face a bit.
- [44:54]
Johan Berniel
Yeah.
- [44:54]
Spencer Martin
On that stage. And you come back. Almost didn't lose a race after that. Super impressive. I love Del Toro. Love Del Toro. I think he's the best Paul watch Paul Seychelles be like the best writer ever. But I'm a Del Toro man in this house for del Toro fans. But I'm just gonna read and then I think we can agree probably stage 20, that's probably the best stage of the year, don't you? We should say it was a weird. It's weird because how often pro cycling do you ever do an hour long climb? And then now George has me thinking, yeah. Was he just riding his own pace, knowing there's an hour long climb waiting at the end of this Grand Tour? It's a very strange thing. You would almost never do that in a professional bike race. I could do an hour long climb whenever I want, but these guys go so fast. You just rarely get roads that long. But I think we can agree that was probably the best stage of the year. Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:43]
Johan Berniel
It's also if you. I mean, I saw somewhere Walt Vanart to. To make it over the Col di Finestre, like in time to be with Simon Yates did his best one hour effort of his life.
- [46:02]
Spencer Martin
I would like to know if that's altitude or adjusted or not, because if that's.
- [46:04]
Johan Berniel
And this is a guy who won a Montu.
- [46:07]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, yeah. Which is way lower altitude than Finestra. It's nuts. I'm gonna read just some stats to you guys and then I want you to answer question I'm gonna give you. And this is the Tade Pagatra section of the podcast. So from my tally. So you won 20 races this year. He won 25 last year, but remember he did two Grand Tours, which gives you a lot more surface area. So 20 races. The races he targeted and did not win, according to my tally. Milano, San Remo Amstel Gold, Perry Roubaix GP, Montreal, which he gifted to a teammate, Brandon McNulty, so you almost don't count that one. Stages where races where he was dropped. Stage 21 of the tour, and I'm not counting Rube, where he rode off the road and was gapped that way. So that's all impressive and this to me is mind blowing. He wins 40% of the. He has 50 race days with 20 wins. So that's 40% win rate. 72% of the time he finished on the podium. He won 56% of the races he started. He podiumed in podiums, all five monuments, which is unbelievable. Here's his win percentage by month. February wins 43% of the races he starts. March wins 50% of the races he starts. April wins 60% of the races he starts. May, he doesn't race. June, 50%. July of just a pedestrian 24% because it's the Tour. There's all the stages. September, terrible 25%. October, 100%. That's unbelievable. And then with this in mind, was this season better than 2024, where he had 25 wins, two Grand Tours and two Monument wins? Obviously he only did one Grand Tour this year, so he could only win one. But he did champion and world champion and World Championship. Well, I guess those cancellations, we'll just pencil that in for every year that's like cancels itself out because he's gonna.
- [48:02]
Johan Berniel
Win all of them.
- [48:02]
Spencer Martin
But, but. So he wins one less Grand Tour, five fewer stages or five fewer races, but he wins another monument and podiums. To me, podium. Finishing on the podium of every monument is unbelievable. Here's another stat that kind of caught me off guard. These are World Tour one day wins. Picachar has five, Vanderpoel has three. No other writer has more than one. So like, to win five when no one else has one is crazy. Well, when only one other writer has more than one is crazy. But what do you guys think? Is this better than 2024 for PIGA?
- [48:37]
George Hincapie
It's, I mean, they're both incredible seasons this year. The fact that he actually went for Ruben, almost won it ended up getting to me is super impressive. Like we keep mentioning, it's a completely different style of racing. You know, dead flat, not one climb in it, super technical, super rough on the body. Just. He went out there just to show that he is the best of the best in the history of cycling.
- [49:00]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, Yeah. I, I have a feeling, I have a feeling that 2025, to me it feels better than last year because I, I, I don't know if it's because it's most more recent in my mind, but he, it felt like he was more dominant overall. He basically did whatever he wanted, whatever he, you know, he just, you just said it. He gave one world to a race away to a teammate. And yeah, I mean, the others, he didn't win them because, I mean, I mean, which ones they didn't in Armstrong, he was, he was there to win, but he went, I mean, he was there and all the other ones to win, so. And the other one he was gonna win, he gives away. So I think it's, it's close. It's close. But I'm just thinking now, yeah, he didn't do Liege last year because he did the Giro. Right.
- [49:51]
Spencer Martin
I, and that, I mean, could contribute because I have the same Feeling Johan. Yeah. And we forget in 2024, he did have to disappear for a little bit to prepare for this. It's like, hold on, guys, I got to prepare for this Grand Tour that I'm going to dominate. And so it didn't feel like he was ever present because he did have to take a little break in the classics.
- [50:09]
Johan Berniel
I mean, if you look back now, I mean, I think last year he won six stages in the year and six in the Tour.
- [50:15]
George Hincapie
Yeah.
- [50:15]
Spencer Martin
That's crazy. Well, and we found out he was. Potentially had a hurt knee.
- [50:21]
Johan Berniel
And the World Championships, he won with an attack of 100 km. No, maybe. Maybe 2024 was a bit better. It's difficult to say. I mean, listen, I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. I'm just curious to see how. How this is going to go forward, you know, I mean, for the moment, I don't see anything slowing him down, if not him getting better, you know, seems like the team is getting better. The team is getting more and more used to racing as a team. When Pogacha is there, at least, you know, when he's not there, it's a different story. It's also entertaining. But. Yeah, yeah, I think they're equal. I think they're equal. I'm, you know, to repeat the, the, the. The World Championships two years after each other, that's. That's also something. And, and everything points into that. Next year it's going to be more of the same with. It's in Montreal.
- [51:17]
George Hincapie
No. Yep. Montreal.
- [51:19]
Spencer Martin
Yeah. Well, and. And then. And then Haute Savoir the next year. I mean, you don't have a non picachar course until.
- [51:27]
Johan Berniel
And now they're. Have you seen these rumors that is it 2028, it's in UAE.
- [51:33]
Spencer Martin
Yeah.
- [51:33]
Johan Berniel
They're talking about building a mountain, artificial mountain.
- [51:37]
Spencer Martin
I would be shocked.
- [51:38]
Johan Berniel
I mean.
- [51:39]
And you get Abu Dhabi in Abu Dhabi.
- [51:41]
Yeah.
- [51:43]
Spencer Martin
They can do another podcast, but poor sprinters, oof. That's a tough run of worlds. Here's another kind of. I was just sitting on the plane yesterday meditating on, you know, everyone is like, I want to. I want a podium, a Grand Tour. I want to win a Grand Tour. And you're like, okay, that sounds good. Here's the Grand Tour winners from this year. Simon Yates, Tada Pagachar, Jonas Finnegaard. And then even the podium. Simon Yates, Isaac Del Toro, Richard Carapaz Pagacha, Jonas Vanguard, Florian Lipowitz, Joel Almeida, Tom Pitcock. Those are all very good writers. And so you had no first Time winners winning a Grand Tour. And the last time that happened was 2023. So it's like there's like these riders are like monopolizing the best races. And I'd keep becoming like, think about Enrich Moss. Johan, who wasn't. Do you want to guess, George?
- [52:36]
George Hincapie
2023, first time Grand Tour winner Sepcos.
- [52:40]
Spencer Martin
Sepcos.
- [52:41]
Johan Berniel
Yo.
- [52:42]
Spencer Martin
But then the year before that, you had Jai Henley and Rimco Evanopole both become debutante winners. And you had Teo Gaganhart tada pagachar in 2020. Like, it's not. It's not usual. This isn't normal that just you have established guys winning every of the. All the same races.
- [53:01]
Johan Berniel
Yeah.
- [53:02]
Spencer Martin
But it just makes like if you're in Rick Moss and you're. You're charting out your year, it's like, well, I'll get third at the Vuelta. It's like, well, maybe not anymore because you're gonna have like, is. Is Remco Evan a polka getting third at the Vuelta? You know, like, it's getting harder and harder in these Grand Tours.
- [53:18]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, listen, as long as today and Jonas are there, I mean, it's. That's. I think it's safe to say they are a level above everybody else. There's, you know, there's nobody. Lipowitz was miles behind those two. Even if Jonas was miles behind today. Then after that, after that, there's a big gap. But you know, when they're not there, it. It's interesting. You know, I mean, if you look at the podium of the Giro, Simon Yates del Toro, Carapas, and then you have Almeida in and Pitcock on the podium of the Tour of the Food Tour of Spain.
- [53:56]
Spencer Martin
So that was not interesting, though. Maybe it wouldn't have been there. That was my. One of my least favorite Grand Tours of all time.
- [54:03]
Johan Berniel
But yeah, I mean, especially also with the incident. You know, every stage was like, you know, we. We didn't know it was gonna happen or not, but. But yeah, no, as long as Jonas are going for it. I mean, even. We're not even talking about Primos anymore. You know, he's not in that category anymore. He is at best a candidate for podium, for third place if the both of those riders are there. And, and not even. Not even, you know, he wasn't even able to do it this year. Yeah.
- [54:32]
Spencer Martin
I still kind of wonder is a solid trap to lure us asleep. And then he wins the Vuelta in 2026. This is where Primos wants us. And also we spend a lot of time talking about like, how do you want a Grand Tour? I want to win a Grand Tour. When's the last time you can remember a Grand Tour won by a rider that wasn't the best climber in the race? Is a secret to just be the best climber in the race. I get used to happening. Used to happen more often. You know you have guys like take time in time trials. Like was Ryder hedged all the best climber at the 2012 0? Probably not, right?
- [55:10]
Johan Berniel
No. But he was the best overall. It was the most.
- [55:14]
Spencer Martin
Bradley Wiggins probably wasn't the best climber at the 2012 Tour.
- [55:17]
Johan Berniel
It was the best time. Yeah. You know, I mean you could say people say oh people always say in the Rhine Indurian was, you know, he was such a good time trialist but he wasn't the best climber. I mean he was a damn good climber. He. He didn't lose much time. I mean and some, I mean he was always, almost always with the first guys. Almost always with his first. With his direct rivals. The thing is that he never sprinted for the win in the, in the mountain stages. Yeah, he was there. He was there with them, you know, just kind of.
- [55:47]
Spencer Martin
Yeah. Kind of like a Chris, Chris Broom, I guess at times was not a better climber than Narakatana. But. Yeah. Was that just because he wasn't sprinting for the winds? I don't know. But you do because if you think about Remco, like how does Remco when a Grand Tour, it's like he might just have to be the best climber in a Grand Tour. He shows up to. Because I don't know if he can take enough time in time trials or.
- [56:09]
Johan Berniel
I mean he, when he won the.
- [56:11]
Spencer Martin
Vuelta, he was probably the best climber, right? He was good. He was really good.
- [56:17]
George Hincapie
He was really strong.
- [56:18]
Spencer Martin
The only one you could argue was maybe stronger than him is Timon Arnsman. But that was just one day. You know. When was that Richard actually was rich.
- [56:28]
Johan Berniel
Nevada.
- [56:29]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, Sierra Nevada. Then was Richard Carapaz the strongest climber in that race? But that was third week he was in.
- [56:34]
Johan Berniel
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- [56:36]
Spencer Martin
But it, it does like you do tend to overcomplicate this. And then it's like, wait a second, you just be, just be the strongest climber. What's the, what's the problem?
- [56:44]
Johan Berniel
Well, I mean nowadays Spencer, you kind of have to be the strongest climber because the time trials are so short now that yeah, you know, you can't take advantage anymore in the time trials. On top of that the strongest climbers like today and Jonas are very, very good time trials. They lose very little time, so you have to be the strongest climber to win. Where else are you going to win it? In the downhills? Crosswinds already? That's. Yeah, that's a different. That's gone also. That doesn't happen anymore.
- [57:12]
Spencer Martin
I know in the vault. I used to have crazy crosswind days.
- [57:15]
Johan Berniel
Yeah.
- [57:16]
Spencer Martin
Yeah.
- [57:16]
George Hincapie
Well, these, these guys that are winning the Grand Tours, they're. I mentioned it the other day, they're so good technically now. Better than, you know, most of the hardcore classic one day riders. I mean, they could ride crosswinds, they could ride flats. They can, yeah, you know, do all the technical stuff that typically, you know, back in the day, those guys didn't have that skill. But they do now.
- [57:36]
Johan Berniel
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [57:38]
Spencer Martin
Well, we got to let George get to his meetings. But do you guys have Anything else on 20, 25 before we officially send it off into the sunset?
- [57:47]
Johan Berniel
No. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think we said it. You know, for me, the, the best, the best stage in a Grand Tour was stage 20 of the, of the Giro. And you know, other than that, you know, we, I think we've tried to focus on, on races that were interesting and, and, you know, had a lot of suspense until the end. But if you do a recap of the season, it's basically okay that Epogachar is the king of the season. Is the king of cycling for the moment.
- [58:18]
George Hincapie
Yeah.
- [58:18]
Spencer Martin
Like I came up with an, with an objective where you put, I put in everyone's results and it's like an algorithm that spits out a number for their season quality score. Just to give you a perspective about how high, how far Picacho is ahead. His season quality score is 53. The second is Jonas Finnegaard at 26. And that's a guy who won a Grand Tour and finished second. A Grand Tour. So it's less than half and then del Toro's 22, Pedersen's 18, Vanderpoel 16, Evan pulls 14.
- [58:46]
Johan Berniel
I think it's, it's kind of more. It's more or less the same as, you know, if you look at the UCI points also he has double UCI points. And the second guy, you know, it's, it's mathematical.
- [58:59]
Spencer Martin
All right, well, thank you guys and.
- [59:00]
Johan Berniel
Okay, guys, thanks.
- [59:01]
Spencer Martin
Be back, guys, for up and comers show next month or no trades and transfers and then up and comers in January.
- [59:08]
Johan Berniel
Okay, thanks.
- [59:09]
Spencer Martin
All right, bye.
- [59:15]
Johan Berniel
Sam.