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- [00:00]
A
The Move is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are going over a few little news items during this quiet holiday week, at least in the States. And then we'll get into questions from listeners. But first, Johan, before we do that, let's hear from today's partner and then we'll be right back, everybody. Today's episode is brought to you by NordVPN, which is quickly becoming a must have for me to keep up with my cycling and other sports as I travel around the globe. What I love most about NORDVPN is the freedom it gives me. I can be traveling to a Tour de France stage. Maybe I don't have a subscription in France to watch cycling, but I can use my service from home. Say I'm browsing from the US and I'm watching the race right there. For example. I was in London this past Saturday for the Ruler live show. I wanted to watch some college football in my hotel room. I don't have, I don't have whatever service you need in the UK to watch college football. So I just said, I'm, I'm back in Boulder and I was watching my college football using my ESPN app. It was very easy. I can also, when I'm at home in the States, I can watch cycling on whatever service I want if it is available internationally. And it's incredibly easy to use. Just one click to connect. And with over 7,500 servers in 118 countries, I can change my virtual location effortlessly. NORDVPN is also one of the fastest VPNs out there. So you never deal with buffering when you're streaming sports, which is important if it's that crunch time. The big mountain stage is the Tour. You don't want to buffer. No, thank you. And that's where NORDVPN is. Great. So if you want to try NordVPN, you can do it right now with no risk with our exclusive, exclusive offer. Go to nordvpn.com themove to try it out risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. If you don't like it, no problem. If you're gonna love it though, so you're gonna keep it that's NordVPN.com themove All right, Johan, before we get into the questions, something came across my desk. You know, this was right after we recorded last week, but there was a great. It's from the money and sports substack. I actually did. Don't know where they got this information. Perhaps Visma has to publish this because they're based in the Netherlands and maybe they have to publish. All companies have to publish their reports. But this is a breakdown of Visma Lisa Bike's finances, which is pretty interesting because we don't normally see these. The top line numbers are that Visma Lisa Bike. The corporate holding aspect of it gets a little confusing because Yellow B Cycling was the holding company that owned it until 2023. If you remember. There was all that uncertainty going on at the time. We didn't know if the team is going to continue. It sold for 8 million euros. That's probably not an all cash deal. And the new owners are Richard Pluga and Robert Vander Wallen. Richard Pluga, you'll know. He was the owner of Yellow Bcycling. So he essentially sold it to himself and a business partner, Robert Vander Wallen, who is a Dutch billionaire. The new owner is Yellow B Cycling holding bv. So basically the same company. But the important thing is in 2024, their operating revenue. So basically the budget of the team was 52 million euros with a loss of 6.1 million euros. You kind of wonder how could a cycling team have a loss because there's no, usually no funds to dip into. The implication being here is that Robert Van De Wallen, the business partner, covered those losses. But when you looked at this, when you heard about this, like do you is it is 52 million? I thought that was a pretty big budget because the biggest budget in the Sport is probably UAE, who would roughly be around 60 million euros. But this is for someone that ran a team relatively recently. Would you say this is quite high? Is this quite a bit higher than you guys were working with? It's.
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B
It's a lot higher than expected. I didn't think that Visma was on that number. Yeah, I think it's safe to say UAE is the highest. We don't know. It's probably unlimited. Then we had, you know, if that's still the case, we don't know. But INEOS was also reportedly 50 million. I mean if that's £50 million, that's. That's huge. Yeah, I was, I was, I was under the impression that Visma was quite A bit lower now, what was it, 5 million loss?
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A
6.1 million. I believe 5 million euros of that were cash and one was depreciation. I think from my quick glance at this. Yeah, yeah.
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B
I mean it's, it's obviously a substantial amount, but I'm not going to say I'm surprised. You know, I said already in former podcast, you know, that it's, it's extremely difficult to, to, to make money with a cycling team. I read somewhere actually one of the only cycling teams that made money in the last two years or the last year was actually Sudal Quickstep. But of course that has a lot to do with the selling of Ranco even. Yeah, but usually, you know, a cycling team, it's. Money comes in, money goes out, you know, that's it. And unless, unless you're a manager and you know, and long time ago, like 20 years ago, a manager, a Dutch manager once told me, he said, you know, this is what you need to do to make sure you make money. The first line in your budget is 10% profit. And that's there, you know, and that's. That, that's just, that's. You can't move that. But of course, you know, in this, in this sport and it's so competitive, you can't really stick to that because, you know, you want always to have access to better riders. You know, you're in a bidding war. You want your, your cyclists to have the best equipment, the best hotels, the best infrastructure for training camps. As far as I know, in my experience, we've always been struggling to make the budget work. There's been years we had losses, but there's never been years where we had a big profit, maybe, I don't know, maybe 1% maximum.
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A
And what happens to the profit like that 10% line item, does that just go into the pocket of the.
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B
No. I mean, it depends how the, it depends how the team is run. If it's a company which is owned by, back in the days, it was usually the general manager who had their own company and that was the paying agent. So basically that general manager then could dispose of that money. I think the most logical thing is it goes back into the budget as a reserve for future uncertainties. But it's, you know, my, from, from experience, I'm going to tell you it's very rare that there's a reserve for the next years. So yeah, when 5 million, it's a lot we need, we would need to look really if those 5 million is a real loss or if it's I mean, I don't know. I haven't looked at the report in detail. In this case, I would say probably Richard Blogg is probably, I'm not going to say comfortable, but an okay situation. If you have a backer like Robert Van de Wallen who will probably either come up with the difference to close that gap, or I don't know if it's going to be compensated, if maybe Van der Wallen gets more shares in the company in exchange for what he pays now extra, I don't know. Now then the question is having more shares in the company, is it really useful if the company never makes money? I mean, ultimately, of course, the goal is that you're going to come across a deal where there's going to be more revenue and you can make money. Now, then the question is, okay, if there's more revenue, most likely anybody who runs a cycling team and wants to be competitive, they're going to want to spend that extra revenue on better riders.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
So, you know, it's, it's a vicious circle.
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A
I've heard it described as prune juice, because what happens when you drink prune juice? It just goes right out the other end.
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B
It's the same thing.
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A
It's the same thing.
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B
Yeah. What comes in goes out for sure.
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A
So you mentioned Sedal Quicksteps profit. They made 2.64 million euros in profit in 2024, and they probably made more this year. The reason that's happening is because they're selling riders and probably underspending. It's. It's not a bad idea. I mean, George Hincapi, I never fact checked this, but he said that in the years before they signed Primos Roglich, back then Bora was underspending their budget to save up money to pay for Primus Rodwich. So I guess that does happen. Where teams, you know, in Sudan, Quickstep, that's a smart team, like run by smart people. They also have a billionaire backer. But, you know, maybe they were told like, I'm not going to plug these holes anymore. So if you want to save up money for something, do we know that maybe Visma has been saving up for this loss? You know, maybe this was a year that they just lost money, but it could be planned losses, if you're wondering.
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B
Well, I mean, you also can see, I mean, obviously we're talking about numbers of 2024. If you look at their 2025, they did not spend a whole lot of money on new signings.
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A
No.
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B
You know, there's no spectacular super high salary rider which will join Visma and there are some expensive riders who have left, so, you know, they're obviously working to close that gap.
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A
And if you're asking what are they spending all this money on, most of it is employees, so.
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B
Yeah, well, I was really, really surprised to see. I mean, I don't, I don't have to know. Did I see somewhere 178 staff?
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A
Yeah, people. 178 staff we should mention.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like I remember at one point, I think it's different now, but Team sky had something like three people on staff because the law in the UK at the time allowed them to classify people as independent contractors. Some teams don't like. If you're a French team, everyone's a full term employee.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Well, Anyway, listen, the 178, it's a lot, but also, I mean, if you look at their infrastructure, I don't know if you've seen, I mean it's, it's been published, published many times. You know, their, their base, their, their headquarters, their service course. It is unbelievable. Yeah, it is. It is probably one of the best, one of the most beautiful, one of the best organized infrastructures that have. They have. So it obviously takes a lot of people to run that.
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A
And when you're at the race, the first thing you notice, and I don't think this is allowed anymore, is they just have way more vans than other teams. So they might have 78 vans, which is full of staff members who drive out on the course and hand off feeds throughout the race. They also, I mean, they have a lot of interesting positions other teams don't have. They focus a lot on altitude camps. I remember I interviewed Richard Plugo once and he told me, really stuck with me. He's like, the key to running a cycling team is avoiding bad sign. Sounds simple. Avoid signing bad expensive riders because a bad expensive rider is equal to. It could be 20 or 30 staff members who can add a lot to your team. It could be multiple altitude camps. So they spend a lot of money on the small stuff. I don't know where these numbers are coming from, but pretty interesting. Just to give you a sense of where Visma stands, let's just say UAE 60 million is probably unlimited. As you say, whatever they need. Quick step, just for reference, they have a budget of. This is in 20, 24, 38 million euros. Decathlon 30, 31 million euros. Groupama 24, Unox 23, Movistar 21, Cofit is 20 lotto 17 million and the revenue Growth. So revenue growth would be budget growth between 24 and 23. Decathlon increased by 32%. Unox increased by 30% which has shown on the road. Quick Step 13 Groupama 10 Kofi is 9 Lotto 4 Movistar a 9% decrease in budget, which is pretty interesting, I guess. Is that just the retirement of Alejandro Valverde? Is that how much he was making percent of the team's budget?
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B
Yeah, probably.
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A
Yeah. And so I'm surprised to see.
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B
What did you say? 38 million for silhouette.
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A
Quick step, 38 million for Siddharth Quickstep. But this would have been 2024, when Ramco Evanopole was on the team.
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B
I don't think so.
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A
You don't think so?
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B
No, no, no. I am almost 100% sure that that's not possible. So I don't know where the numbers come from. I'll check, I'll try to find out for the next podcast if that's correct. But in my opinion that's not correct.
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A
We should say I believe this is counting. Like I'm looking at the pie chart for Visma. I believe they count the market rate of the bikes they receive. So If Quickstop's getting 200 specialized bikes.
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B
They have a women's team, they development team, they have a junior team. Yeah, so. So yeah, maybe. I don't know.
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A
It's $45 million right there for 200 specialized bikes. It. I guess this shows you the, the pressure to chase uae. Do you? I was a little. I only knew this because of you. You told me a few years ago that Visma had a benefactor who was sharing the cost with the team. I didn't think that was widely known. And then even more interestingly about the team that Richard Pluga owns it because he was the team's press officer. He was a publishing executive who then became a cycling comment like commentator and then was the team's press officer. The team folded. Robo bank left the team. He kind of picked up the pieces and got. He basically bought the team for nothing, right?
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B
Yeah, I think I remember when it was. It was Blanco cycling team. So basically what happened was Rabobank had decided they would leave the sport. They still had a year contract but they didn't want their name to be anymore on the jersey. So they paid the team what was promised. But they, they called it Blanco White. The white jersey. The white team. Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then I think in that, in that moment I do remember there was a interim general manager who was originally one of the directors of Rabobank the company, I think his name was. If I'm not remember, if I'm not. If I'm not mistaken, it's Henry von der Aert. Henry von der Aert. I do remember. And then he told me that, you know, they were changing and when it was Blanco, all of a sudden they got a smaller sponsor. I mean, became the title sponsor, but because they didn't really need the money. Belkin came in.
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A
Yeah, I remember this.
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B
The mobile phone accessories and batteries and cables and stuff. So they came in, I don't know, they paid 2, 3 million or something, but they became the title sponsor of the team. And that's. I think when Henry van der Aat left and went back to the bank, Richard Pluga came in and he was the communications manager and I think he bought the license then to continue with the team. And then, you know, from there on they were basically trying to find sponsors. And now ultimately that's the consequences. Many years later. Visma Lisa bike.
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A
It does show, I mean, the great, great for Richard Pluga. Impressive timing there, but it does show you that you almost need a benefactor, a very wealthy benefactor to compete in modern cycling. I mean, there's actually very, if you think about it, very few teams. How many teams are independently owned, like Decathlon's now owned by Decathlon. Cathlon. Little Trek, owned by Little. EF is owned by ef. INEOS is owned by ineos. Even Movistar has a benefactor now. So does Sudo. Quicksup, so does Visma. UAE is state owned. Bahrain is state owned. I believe there's no UAE not state owned. It's not. It's owned by a person who is a Phil.
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B
No, UAE is owned by the company of model Geneti. Swiss company.
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A
Okay. All right, so it's Little Engine. It could. That team that. Yeah, they have to go out, they have to find sponsors. I did not know that. That Gianetti still owns that team. Incredible. And then also there was, at the end of this article, There was the ASOS. It was their 2020, 24 financial review. Do you know how much profit ASO made in 2024? Usually.
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B
Usually it's around 100 million.
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A
Yeah. Record profits. 111 million in 2024. They don't tell you. Yeah, you don't know how much of that's the Tour de France, but their total sales were377.7 million. So that's an incredible profit margin. Very good for ASO. And now we see why they're so hesitant to do anything right Because, I.
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B
Mean, you know, I mean, listen, as far. As long as they. There is, you know, they would never get around the table unless they're really forced and they have no other choice. If it's about revenue sharing, it's a no for ISO. I see. I mean, back in the days, I've been in meetings, you know, I was everything, okay, let's talk this and that. As soon as you start sharing the TV rights, it's game over, the meeting is finished. You know, listen, until now, they've been getting away with. Makes no sense because, you know, without writers and teams, who are the actors, the main actors of, you know, I mean, if you have a big, you know, blockbuster Hollywood movie, the actors are the main characters. Right. And the ones who get, you know, very, very big fees should be the same. In cycling, it's the same in almost every. Every other sport, except a few.
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A
Yeah, but as I said on the move during the Tour, it's like they're not. The other sports do it because there's competition. And someone. I was talking to someone on the other night who was trying to buy ASO at one point, and they brought up about that. It was a very good point that ASO is no weakness because they have no debt.
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B
You talked to somebody who's trying to buy aso?
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A
Yeah, well, in the past, this is an anonymous person, but they. They mentioned that, like, the reason you can wedge into professional sports a lot of the times is because the organizations take on debt and need cash to service that. ASO has no debt, so they have no need to bring cash on. They're just happily harvesting a 33 profit margin on their business. That's incredible. They should continue to do that. Congratulations to the family. You have a great business with no con, with no serious competition.
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B
There is no competition. There is no competition. I mean, you know, like, no matter what else you try to create, the Tour de France is just, you know, it's. It's the. It's the. The prestige event. You know, it's. A lot of people say, I mean, even. I mean, Bogachar is like. He's, like, hesitant in, like, Tour de France and the World Championships. He puts that, like, equally. Yep. It's not equal. It's not, you know, it's. If you're a world champion one year and you win the Tour de France one year, it's not even close. Yeah.
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A
I mean, I think he's only putting it equally because he can just pencil in. Yeah.
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B
Okay. I mean, for him, probably it doesn't really Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really matter that much, but.
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A
Well, let's take a quick break and then I'm going to ask you about something else. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Huell. My mornings have been incredibly busy this week even without school drop offs due to the Thanksgiving holiday. Perhaps they're even more busy because those kids are home from school and I am missing breakfast at times. But this is not a problem because I've been reaching for Huell's Black Edition High Protein on the go Complete meal replacement. It's got 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals. It's gluten free with no artificial sweeteners. Basically a complete meal that's ready to go on the go. And I don't need to take time to eat breakfast to be fueled. Right now my go to flavor is the iced coffee. It's smooth, not too sweet, and keeps me going all morning. Huell makes healthy eating simple. They also just launched in the Target stores nationwide, which is key because I'm traveling and I can grab hu wherever I am. Try both Black Edition Ready to Drink and Daily Greens RTD products today with 15% off your purchase. 20 for new customers with our exclusive code themovewell.com themove that's H U E L dot com themove. Make sure to check it out right now, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Bubs Natural. You know the moment when you realize you're not 25 anymore. Anymore. For me, it was flying to Europe and back onto Tucson to do the great but brutal El Tour to Tucson race and then flying the next day to Washington D.C. for Thanksgiving. I'm frankly a little tired. The jet lag is getting tougher. The race recovery is not what it once was, and my body is not bouncing back as quickly just from anything in general anymore. Getting older hits harder than you'd expect, but it doesn't have to. That's why I've been trying out Bubs Natural collagen peptides. Starting in your mid-20s, your body produces less collagen every single year. Collagen is literally the glue that holds everything together. So that's, that's pretty important. That's relevant information. But Bubs helps you bring those levels closer to what your body had when you were younger. The result? Stronger joints, healthier hair and nails, smoother skin, and noticeably faster recovery. And the best part is how easy it is to use. I just mix a scoop scoop into my morning coffee even while I'm traveling. Got it right here. In my coffee, there's no taste, there's no smell, and it dissolves instantly. No clumps, no chalky aftertaste. You don't even know it's there until you start feeling the difference. What makes BUBS really special, though, is the story behind it. The company is named after Glenn Bob Doherty, a former Navy seal, an American hero who lost his life saving others in Benghazi. The brand carries his spirit of improvement and service. And Bubs donates 10% of all profits to charity, starting with the Glen Doherty Memorial Foundation. So live better, longer for a limited time only. Our listeners are getting 20% off Bubs at Bubs Natural using code WEDO at checkout. Just head to BU S naturals.com and use code WEDO and you're all set. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. That's Bubsnaturals.com and use code WEDO. All right, we're back. Johan. So just before we get into our questions, I. I don't. I think we called this out in the last episode, but I just want to make sure we do say this. So NSN Cycling, that rebranded Reed Board Israel Premier Tech team is riding Scott bikes. They're no longer riding Factor bikes, so they'll be riding Scott bikes.
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B
Been officially announced already, Spencer.
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A
You know, I saw it was. Daniel Benson reported it, but I don't believe it was officially announced. But I heard from. I heard from people who would know that the deal has been signed. So we're breaking that news if it's not already been broken. But it will be announced on December 2 that they the deal's done and that Scott got very favorable terms on that deal, which, and I get this. So Scott was with Q36.5. They left Q36.5 because the owner of Q36.5, the company and the team also owns Pinarello. Obviously they would want to be on the same bike as the owner of the team owns. And then Scott was left looking for a partner. Correct?
- [24:13]
B
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I think Pinarello even becomes the title sponsor. I think the name naming of the team is going to be Pinarello Q 36.5. So, yeah, I mean, at this point, I mean, that point, it's, you know, a brand like Scott to get into to find another partner, it's not easy. So for sure, for them, it's a present. You know, like all of a sudden you get this situation that there is a world tour team who is without a bike sponsor. Now, it's my understanding that there must have been a fallout between Israel, Premier Tech, now nsn. You know, it's still to be seen if Sylvan Adams is behind, behind the curtain still, you know, pulling the strings. I'm suspecting that will be the case, especially because he's still paying for the team. So if you pay, you decide. And so, yeah, I mean, factor. Factor still had a deal with, with the team, but apparently they wanted to renegotiate or something. And Adam said, okay, no way. I don't know. I mean, it's. I don't know what the amount of the sponsoring is, but let's say it's 2 million or something. Adam's pockets are deep enough. Say, okay, you know what, screw you factor. You know, you've not stood behind us with when, when it's really, when it's really necessary, I'll just pay another, another 2 million from my pocket and we'll ride with, you know, and maybe, maybe, maybe Sylvan Adams himself, the incredible cyclist he is in his mid or late 60s, prefers to ride on a scope and on a factor that may be the deciding factor. I don't know.
- [26:02]
A
It could be could they sue factor since they're in the middle of their deal.
- [26:08]
B
I mean, I don't know. I don't have the details. It is my understanding that there was a contract in place, probably overpaid, and now with the whole factor, probably also wants to take advantage of the fact that the team was, you know, in negative news and they wanted to probably pay less money and, you know, wanted to renegotiate. And Adam said, okay, we're not really negotiating yet. You know, we're going somewhere else. And then he'll probably try to recuperate the money through the courts. But, you know, that's, first of all, not sure that's going to happen, and it could take a long time.
- [26:44]
A
Well, it's great for Scott. I mean, you walk right into a World Tour sponsorship deal. I mean, that and the terms they are on are incredible. So congrat. Congratulations to Scott. It's a good bike.
- [26:57]
B
It's a good team.
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A
Yeah, it's. I think it's one of my favorite bikes in the World Tour, so. Well, it's my favorite bike in the World Tour because Ventum's not in the World Tour, Johan. But, but we think we, we like Scott over here.
- [27:11]
B
Are there, are there still bad bikes, Spencer?
- [27:15]
A
It's a great question. That could be its own episode, couldn't it?
- [27:18]
B
You know, okay, obviously, you know, it's. I mean, yeah, but, you know, if you look at, if you look at a bike brand, Spencer, it's. The bike brand is the frame. You know, so we have components which are, you know, you can get the best of the best on any bike. You can have either Shimano or SRAM or company, you know, and then the wheels, you can have the best wheels. And the bike brand is a frame. It's two triangles that, you know, hold the components together. It's okay, you can say stiffness, geometry and aerodynamics. Those are the three qualities that can differentiate a bike.
- [27:54]
A
Well, I heard that look was riding a bike that was a pound heavier than the competition or Cofitus when they were on look. That's significant. And as you found out the Tour, it's like, well, weight's not always a big deal if you're aero. But then the problem with that specific bike is I don't think it was very aero and it was heavy.
- [28:12]
B
Yeah, but, so that, but let's, let's, let's say, for example, let's just compare the bikes that the top riders are riding. So you have Pugacha riding in Colnago. You have Jonas, who's riding in Cervelo. You have Remco, who's riding Specialized.
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A
Specialized, yeah.
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B
Del Toro's riding Colnago. Who else can we put in there? Vanderpool's riding Canyon. I don't think there's any of these bikes that are going to make you win or lose. You could argue Colnago four or five years ago, maybe, maybe they were on the lower end of, you know, but they've, they've stepped up and they're, they're, they're up there now with the best. So. And if you once in your. That range of quality. I don't think there's that much difference. I mean, forgot to say Trek also, for example. But I don't think, I don't think that's, that's a factor now to win or lose.
- [29:16]
A
Yeah, I did feel like there was a time where Visma was at a distinct advantage over uae, but, man, there was times at the end of last year where especially the way he was riding so much off the front that you're thinking, does Picacho have a significant advantage because he's essentially riding a time trial bike, like.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah, so Sisma.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, which one's faster? They gotta, we gotta get our, get our hands on these things and test them. The thing I noticed at Ruler Live is you really notice the elimination of the 3:1 rule that ratio. Because now the thing is, like, Ridley looks total. I used to ride. I was on a team that was sponsored by Ridley. And it looks like a different bike now. Like with these head tubes are so deep. And that probably does help at a certain point. If you're on a team that's not on that cutting edge, maybe you are less arrow. But let's take another quick. Actually, I'm gonna ask you this and then we'll go to a break. So Remco Evanif. We're going back to Remco. We can't stay away from this guy. I was reading the Belgian media this morning, Johan, and I saw on hln, which I won't try to say that what that actually stands for. Lots.
- [30:22]
B
The news.
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A
Perfect. The last exact.
- [30:24]
B
The latest news.
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A
Well, it was the latest news because they say inside of Remco's mind is the thought to race Tour Flanders in 2026. This would probably mean no Giro d', Italia, right?
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B
Yeah. I mean, you know, you can do. You can do the Tour Flanders in the Giro. That's not a problem.
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A
And then what do you do? Another he would do. He would definitely have some sort of classics program leading up to the Tour of Flanders. And then. And then I guess he would have to reset for the Giro.
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B
Yeah. If he. I. It's difficult for me see Remco take a pass on. On Flesh Ballon and yes, Baston Lies, which is closer to the Giro already. Yeah, I read that too.
- [31:07]
A
Spencer.
- [31:08]
B
I'm absolutely not a fan of this idea. You know, Tour of Flanders is. I mean, Remco is not Bogacha. You know, it's. Tour Flanders is such a special race. Yeah, I. I don't see it. I don't see it as. As a benefit. There's a lot, A lot of risks involved already. You know, by definition, Remco is not the best in positioning. And if there's one race where position is key and, you know, even if you live in the area but you've never raced it, forget about it. You know, it's. It's. It is. It is. You can live there. I lived on the bottom of the Bossberg. I've done the Tour flounders once my first year professional. I said, okay, I'm not coming back to this crazy race again. And I never did it again. I. I don't know what the benefit would be for Remco, actually. Of course the fans will love it in Belgium, but I don't see him in a position to be a factor in the race. And if that's not the case, then why would you do it?
- [32:15]
A
It's.
- [32:15]
B
It's just unnecessary risks.
- [32:18]
A
I, I kind of like as a fan, I kind of like it. And it. You bring up very good points. It does take a lot of skill. It's probably the hard from a skill perspective. Oh yeah. Because you have to be on and you have to know where you're going the whole time. But I don't know could he get away. Get away early and he's so arrow. He stays away and wins. As I say that the last two climbs are so slow that he would have to have. It's hard to imagine him staying in front of those guys. But I don't know. I kind of, I would like to see it. Probably couldn't race the age though.
- [32:53]
B
It's a rumor, right? I mean it's not confirmed. Personally, if I would be his DS or his gm, I would strongly advise against it because it's not worth the risk. He already, you know, let's, let's not forget Remco is constantly coming back from, you know, bad luck. You know, his crash in. First of all his crash in Lombardy which was, it's already a number of years ago. It's a huge, big, big mid crash where he, you know, fell off that bridge. Then his crash in the Basque country also, you know, broken collarbone, ribs, whatever. Really, really difficult to come back from. And then last winter again an accident with, with, with the car. He doesn't need another one of those. And putting him in the environment of Tour of Flanders is. I mean they're going to call me old fashioned and too conservative, but if I am the one who has to give him advice and maybe he wouldn't listen, you know, he would probably not listen to it. But if this is confirmed, I think it's a bad idea.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah, you say old fashioned, but until very recently it would have been unusual for a 26 year old grand Tour contender who was a hilly one day racer to just hey, let's try to do Flanders. That'd be kind of fun to win that. That did not happen. I mean like remember Nibali did it one year and he did, he did well. He got dropped though by Terpstra and then Valverde was doing it. Lance did it in 2009, but yeah, you don't. 2005, did he not do it in 2009? No, he got like 20th place. I don't. Hold on, hold on a second here. Let's see 2009.
- [34:39]
B
No.
- [34:40]
A
Well, he did that. He had a broken collarbone.
- [34:42]
B
Let's look at 2005.
- [34:44]
A
Spencer 2010. He did it. Got 27th place.
- [34:47]
B
2010On Radio Shack. I forgot about Radio Shack.
- [34:53]
A
And let's see who this I knew.
- [34:55]
B
Because 2009 was Astana. And I know he didn't do it.
- [34:57]
A
In 2009, but yeah, I guess that.
- [34:59]
B
Would make sense because he wasn't 2005 on Discovery, I think.
- [35:02]
A
Okay, how'd he do?
- [35:05]
B
Well, he was. I mean, he raced for George. I don't know if he finished. I think he finished 2005.
- [35:13]
A
Well, it was not like just to be like, hey, I think I'm gonna race Flanders. That is pretty wild. That's a wild thing to do. I would love to see it. Probably not the smartest thing, especially if you're trying to win a grand tour. That is very risky. But let's take another quick break and then I. We have some more questions for you, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Quints cold mornings holiday plans. This is when I just want my wardrobe to be simple. Stuff that looks sharp, feels good, and things I actually want to wear. For me, that's Quint's. And the bonus quints pieces make great gifts too, which is key for getting out of those Christmas gift jams. Like you get Uncle Kurt in the Secret Santa. What are you going to get that guy? He's got everything. Well, get him a nice quince $50 Mongolian cashmere sweater that he can wear on his beach walks in La Jolla every morning. He's going to need that sweater because it's colder than you think. And Quint's offers extremely high quality at low prices. By partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans, Quince cuts out the middlemen to deliver premium quality at half the cost of other high end brands. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. I'm currently packing, or I should be packing to go to el Tour de Tucson this weekend. And I can guarantee I'm taking my quints worn stretch jeans and my Pima cotton T shirt. That's my go to work uniform. At the moment, I'm wearing them borderline too much. People are concerned. I have no other clothes. That's how much I love quints. So give and get timeless holiday staples that last this holiday season. With quints go to quints.com themove for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Quince Q-U-I-N-C-E.com themove free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the move everybody. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Most holiday gifts end up in a drawer or the back of your closet or accidentally left at your cousin's house. But not this one. Mint Mobile is offering unlimited premium wireless for just 15amonth. This is their best deal of the year. It's happening right now. Get a 3, 6 or 12 month unlimited plan for just 15amonth. And all Mint plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. You can bring your current phone number over to Mint too. It's very easy. No contracts, no nonsense. I recently moved my work phone over to Mint. I can vouch that it's incredibly easy to do. I'm also traveling all over the world and Mint keeps me connected. I'm getting a high speed data no matter where I go and I'm not paying very much money. It's perfect. So don't get your loved one socks. Get them premium Premium Wireless for 15amonth. Shop Mint Unlimited plans@mintmobile.com the move that's mintmobile.com the move Limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only over 35 gigs. The network may slow when busy Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. C mint mobile.com for more details. Okay, Johan, we're back. Just to make sure I don't forget this question, Albert is in the chat. Albert emailed me this question and this is a good question. How did, how the heck did Eddie Merckx manage to win Milano San Ramos seven times? The more I think about it, the more absurd it seems. Is he winning them all from sprints?
- [38:20]
B
No, no, no, no, no, no. Sometimes in the sprint, sometimes attack. Yeah. It is crazy actually. He was not a sprinter. He was strong sometimes. He started the sprint so far and the sprinters were already so dead that he wanted to sprint.
- [38:39]
A
But.
- [38:42]
B
You know, now it's mind blowing. Good question, good question. The answer is I don't know. I mean, shows how strong he was, how dominant he was. I mean, I think the majority of the, the times he was, you know, he attacked and there was one or two or three guys, he was really, really strong sprinter in small groups. But some, I think one or two times he won it like from, I mean, not with the Big sprinters, but like from a group of 20, 30 riders. He also won it that way.
- [39:11]
A
That is impressive, man.
- [39:13]
B
Seven times on Rainbow. It's crazy.
- [39:15]
A
It's actually one of the crazy. It's one of these things you hear and you're like, that's a lot. And the more you think about it, the more unbelievable that is.
- [39:22]
B
Yeah, I mean it is, it is one of the most difficult races to win.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah, like you win that seven times. It is the heart. I think it's the hardest race to win in modern cycling. Speaking of modern cycling, we were talking about this in the pre show, modern training. You know, I've been like watching Jonas aberhanson increase his FTP by 45 watts per week on Instagram stories. You know, everyone took a little break in October. Like I was just talking to Matthew Riccatello last week. He's back training though, and he said he's like, like, oh, it's not serious until next week. Thinking that's Thanksgiving, man. Like, it just seems like these guys, by mid December, they're gonna be flying absolutely fine by beginning of January, they're in amazing shape. I remember Garrett Thomas recently was, you know, he's an older man. He's like 40 years old, I believe. He's like, you know, you don't have to do the long climbs until later in the year, but it seems like that's going away, Johan, and people are in tippy toppy race shape as early in the year as possible. Why, why is this happening? Like, what's the benefit of that?
- [40:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. I mean, I see it. I have a young son, you know, he's now turning junior, almost 17 years old, and it's the same thing. I mean, it's still, it's still relatively calm, but I'm really surprised how fast these young guys get into shape. But I think what the, the norm right now is to be just be always in really good shape and then just peak to have that extra 2%, you know. Yeah, you can. Nowadays, the level of cycling today, you could not be in, you know, in average shape and compete. There's no way if even if you are one of the best champions and you go in, you know, average shape to tour down under, you're going to get your ass kicked.
- [41:11]
A
Yeah. You get dropped.
- [41:12]
B
Yeah. You know, so I mean, drop, maybe not, but you're going to be on the limit. You don't recover the same. You know, you come back from a race and you have to. I think right now the purpose is you're, you're in really good enough shape that you do the races. You get a bit of extra intensity in races that sometimes in, in training you cannot do. That's also not always the case because, you know, if it's a stage race sometimes, and there's two or three stages where it's flat and it's a sprinter stage, they, you know, they say they detrain and they come back from the race and they have done less intensity than if they would have done a block of training at home.
- [41:50]
A
But.
- [41:51]
B
And also they, they don't race that much anymore. You know, I mean, it's 50 races, 40 races sometimes.
- [41:56]
A
50, 40.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah. So it's, it's really being in, in a really, really good shape all the time and then sometimes just try to peak and have those extra few percentages to be. When it's an objective. I do, however, still. I'm still, I'm still surprised that they start training so much so early. I'm following some guys on Strava and I mean, it's still, I mean, in November, it's still relatively relaxed. You know, they don't do big rides, but in December, it is full on. Full on. I mean, yeah, I'm going in two weeks. I'm going to Calpe with a few friends to ride a few days there. And I know that's going to be full of teams. You know, the majority of the World Tour teams are there in that area. And yeah, they're just flying left, right and center. I mean, it's not, it's not that difficult because we guys, we don't go that fast, but it is impressive to see the level of these guys. And then next to it, you know, the development teams, the juniors teams, the women's teams, they're flying December over there. It's, it's, it's, it's re. It's crazy.
- [43:11]
A
Well, we think it doesn't make any sense, but maybe our thinking doesn't make sense because you look at the Tour down under. Look who does well there. This is 2025. So this last year, Jonathan Navarro wins it. This is on Wollonga Hill, the Queen Stage. Oscar Onley second. Oscar Onley goes on to have an amazing Tour de France 2024. It's the same thing. It's like Stephen Williams wins the overall, Navarre is second. That both those guys had an amazing season. Isaac del Toro third, Oscar Onley fourth, Bart Lemon fifth. You know, and like those guys all had great years. So it's not like they're burning out And Tom Danielson did have a theory that I think is interesting, that the old school, you know, it's like, we have to rest. So it's like you take a long time off, you get really out of shape and you're building back up and you think this is the right decision, but. But you're doing so much work just to get back to where you were that if you don't let yourself fall off that much, you can actually keep improving year after year, which, you know, maybe makes sense. And we were just brainwashed a little bit.
- [44:13]
B
Well, yeah, I mean, I think the rest is necessary more mentally than physically.
- [44:17]
A
Yeah.
- [44:17]
B
You know, like, if you take a week, like a proper rest a week, or, you know, 10 days maximum, physically you are fully recovered and restored. But it's the, it's the mental aspect, you know, I've, I've always heard and I think it's still the case, you know, like, when do you have to start training again after your winter break? It's like, in my opinion, it's when your body. When you yourself and say, okay, I really want to get back on.
- [44:45]
A
I'm excited to go, right?
- [44:46]
B
I'm excited, I want to go. I feel I need it, you know, And I don't, I don't think there's a term on that. For some people, it can be a week, it can be 10 days, it can be three weeks. I don't know. Nowadays, I don't. I don't think there's many guys who do who rest for three weeks. I think two weeks is the maximum. And still those two weeks is not fully ready. They do other stuff, you know. Yeah, they're always busy. Always.
- [45:10]
A
You can't drink beer for a month anymore and do nothing. And then the, the thing that shocks me is the training. When you come back, it used to be like, oh, just noodle around your fat burning. And it's like now it's like, no, you should train. If you're training, you should train and get in shape. And that totally flies in the face of everything I was ever taught. But clearly it's right, because it's working.
- [45:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think it's the, the, the main. Listen, Spencer, the main thing is that the, the, the quantity of races is a lot lower. They, they, they race, you know, between, let's say between 40 and 60 days. Right. And, and, and sometimes even, yeah, earlier days, it was that 40, 60 days, you were like, what, you know, a professional cyclist. You, you hardly race.
- [45:58]
A
There is something about racing that can get you in shape and then can like wear you out. Like it's never on your own terms and you're traveling.
- [46:06]
B
And today, in today's cycling, Spencer, you have to go to the races that you know, you're ready for, you know, back in the days. And I'm not going to say, I mean I would say that you go back 10 years, the last 10 years, it's. But you know, until 10 years ago you could go to races and say, okay, you know, I'm just gonna go to this race, use it as, you know, just ride in the peloton, not care about anything. And bit by bit you got back into it. Those times are gone. Forget about it. Not even the smallest race, you know, less important race, forget about it. You're not, you're not, it's not productive, you're not, you're not building. Yeah, you're debuilding, you're destroying.
- [46:49]
A
It's like the Tour Tucson destroying your body just being in that thing. So we, there was a news article about this today that's, that's what prompted this question. What is keeping Chris Froome, four time Tour de France winner from officially retiring? He's 40 years old, has not won a race and now nearly eight years since 2018. Why is he not just announcing his retirement? We know he's not coming back to NSN Pro Cycling. He's, he's looking for a new team. It seems like if he's not announcing his retirement, why is this happening?
- [47:22]
B
I haven't seen he's looking for a new team either. Spencer. We know he's not, he's not on the roster for that, you know, all ex Israel premier tech NSN cycling team. I, I honestly, I don't know. I just, I think the answer is he just loves to ride his bike. He loves to ride. You can see that he takes pleasure in riding his bike now. You know, a guy like Chris Froome who's won the two or four times, won the Giro, won the Vuelta and many other races, you know, if you like to ride your bike, I think there's many ways of doing that. I don't know, I don't have the answer. I've asked myself that question also. I think honestly for Chris it's time to retire. I mean he's, you know, he doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. I think it's himself, you know, he just wants to prove to himself that he's still competitive. But as you said, you know, he's, he's near 40 or already 40. You know, cycling has evolved a lot in the last six, seven years. And you know, even if Chris Froome right now would get back to the best. Chris Froome when he won the Tour, we've seen already in several studies and analysis that those numbers don't get you in the top 20 anymore.
- [48:42]
A
Even top 30.
- [48:43]
B
You know, it's like it's times have evolved so I don't have the answer. Spencer. And then again, you know, it's not because he's, I mean, I don't think he has announced he's looking for another team, but he also hasn't announced his retirement, which in my opinion is a bit strange to me because I think for Chris it's time to retire and ride his bike whenever he wants and enjoy a well deserved retirement and enjoy the bike and his family.
- [49:20]
A
It does seem like when there's no retirement, it's almost like when you can't grieve, you know, someone, it's, it creates this weird thing where he, he was the best. He won four Tours and then he never, there was like never an end. And then it almost makes you forget about the reign more versus I think of, I don't know, like Tom Dumoulin just stepped away and it's like we can kind of put Tom Dumoulin's career in a box and you're like, you remember it as a different era. And then Chris Frum, I find it strange. I have a hard time like contextualizing his achievements because it's like, oh, he's still an active professional and you can't like totally celebrate that achievement. Like Miguel and Range is like, didn't he just get off a bike? He's like, yeah, I got dropped. I was getting off the bike and you're never gonna see me again. Yeah, like there's a mystique to that that I think is nice with great champions.
- [50:11]
B
Yeah, well, I think, I think, you know, I mean, no matter what Chris Froome does, I think we have to, you know, we have to acknowledge his, his legacy, you know, I mean, seven time Grand Tour winner and he's been the dominator during his era, at least until 2018. He win the first one in 2013. 2013, he won the first one until 2018. You know, those five, six years he was the best Grand Tour rider in the, in the peloton. I think we should, you know, remember him that way. What he did was, was amazing.
- [50:48]
A
So shout out to my friend jp, who brought this to my attention. But Rui Costa And Esteban Chavez just announced the retirement. Do you know what team they were racing for, Johan?
- [50:59]
B
Ef.
- [51:00]
A
Ef. Both on ef. I had no idea.
- [51:04]
B
Yeah.
- [51:05]
A
That they were on that.
- [51:06]
B
They've been quite invisible. I mean, Rukosta. Yeah. But Esteban Chavez. I don't know. I think Esteban Chavez had a lot of problems with injuries also the last few years.
- [51:15]
A
Years. Well, that's kind of. People think you just get slow.
- [51:19]
B
Yeah.
- [51:20]
A
But that's not usually what happens. It's usually as you get older, you're struggling with injuries and you can't train to the level that you need to. To be fast.
- [51:26]
B
Yeah.
- [51:27]
A
Yeah.
- [51:27]
B
Well, I mean, listen, Chris from the same. I mean, we all.
- [51:29]
A
Yep.
- [51:30]
B
You know, after that crash in 2018, that's, you know, that's Chris Froome before and then. And there's Chris from after that, you know, and. Yeah, it's unfortunate, but that's also part of the job. You know, injuries and crashes happen.
- [51:46]
A
Well, we gotta. We gotta let you go, Johan, actually, before we leave. So if you were Remco's manager, like, what would you say to him? What would you have his Plan be for 2026, his ideal race schedule?
- [52:00]
B
I mean, I think he should still, first of all, focus on. Focus on the races. You can, you, you, you have won and you can win. In my opinion, and we've spoken about it in. In another podcast, Remco and I would make him focus on Tour of Switzerland, Dauphine, Ramandy, Basque country, races like that. You know.
- [52:27]
A
What about the age?
- [52:28]
B
Maybe the stage races of one week, like the, the, you know, there's. So you have, there's seven. Right. So there's. To the Swiss, Dauphine and the Basque Country.
- [52:45]
A
Yeah.
- [52:46]
B
So those seven, you know, let's try to win a few. You know, for example, Joel made up one, three of them.
- [52:53]
A
Yep.
- [52:53]
B
This season, you know, that should be.
- [52:56]
A
And then he had his best GC in a Grand Tour.
- [52:58]
B
That should be his. His goal. And then, you know, whether he does the Giro or, Or the, The Tour or the Vuelta, I mean, why not go back to the Vuelta? He's one that already in the past, you know, it's. He's, you know, for the moment, I would get rid of the obsession of the Tour still, obviously. Listen, if you can. If it depends. I don't think the Tour should initially be the main goal for Remco because to me, it seems like he performs better in Grand Tours when the expectations are lower and just, you know, just got into it, which is what happened. In the Tour last year.
- [53:43]
A
You're right. Nobody gave him a chance. I believe even famously on the Tour preview, there was not a lot of chance giving. But is. Am I crazy for saying I think the numbers bear this out? Maybe not the Pagacha year, but the climbing is often so slower at the Gir d' Italia than the vta. But maybe that's just because of where it is in the calendar and the weather.
- [54:06]
B
The VTA climbs are shorter.
- [54:11]
A
So.
- [54:12]
B
Yeah, I don't know.
- [54:13]
A
And. And I guess, yeah, now that you mention it, there's never, almost never a climb before the final climb in the VTA does that. Maybe that's good for Remco. Maybe that gives him a cleaner run at it.
- [54:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, but I would first, I would focus. I would try to win a few of those one day, one week historical state races. That would be my, my first goal. And he. Okay, I mean, he can do that because there's almost always a time trial and normally there's one, maybe two hard mountain stages. So that should be within his. Within his reach.
- [54:46]
A
Like Torena last year. No way. He doesn't win that. If he does it, it. Yeah, I think he didn't do it. He must not have done it. No, he didn't do it.
- [54:54]
B
No, no. His first race was Fresh Bravanson and he won against Vanart.
- [54:58]
A
Well, that's a big Dave Brailsford thing too. It's like you mimic behavior. You mimic the winning before you get to the Grand Tour and then you know how to win at the Grand Tour where. Yeah. Maybe tackle a few of these one weeks.
- [55:12]
B
Yeah.
- [55:12]
A
Get them in the bag. And then we think about a Grand Tour. Even though it sounds weird because he's won one, but you know, you have to like do it every year.
- [55:21]
B
You know, he's won the Vuelta and been on the podium of the Tour de France. I repeat, you know, to say that Remco is not a Ground Tour rider. Who else except Jonas and Today and Simon Yates are in today's peloton. Who could say that they've won a Grand Tour and be on the podium on another one? Not that many.
- [55:44]
A
Chris Froome.
- [55:46]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [55:49]
A
Well. Well, that, that will be our send off. But thanks, Johan.
- [55:52]
B
Okay, thanks.
- [55:53]
A
Yeah, bye.
- [55:54]
B
Bye.
- [55:57]
A
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