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Spencer (3:48)

All right, Johan. It's a little funny being here because you could actually pick up quite a bit of news and things. Gossip. You see people around, maybe people not around. And I think the big news of the week is Oscar on Lee not being at the picnic postnl team training camp. He's not at another team training camp because we would have seen a picture of it. But what's going on with that? He had quotes the other day that made it seem like he's probably not coming back to that team.

Johan Berniel (4:15)

Yeah, well, we talked about it in the last podcast, I guess. No, but I think since then that kind of rumor is getting stronger and stronger, I would say. And it's not confirmed. Of course the fact he's not at a training camp is suspicious. In my opinion. You could say, well, you know, he just got back from a long stay in Australia. Maybe he has to recover from the travel or. I don't, I don't think that's the case. I think his own declaration saying that, yeah, you know, in theory I'm with the team, but my future is still uncertain. Something along those lines I think is telling. At the same time, we've also gotten news, I don't think those are rumors that the team picnic post NL, their license, the New World 2 licenses are three years, right. Apparently their license is only guaranteed for one year because they cannot give for the moment any financial guarantees for 2027 and 2028. So I think personally that this Oscar only situation is going to evolve. We don't know obviously what's happening behind the scenes, but I can see him at INEOS next year. Spencer, he's not at the training camp. That's the first sign. Then, you know, I did a little bit of research and we talked about some riders leaving that, that specific team, the team of Ivan Spakenbrink before the end of their contract. And I had have a few names here. So we know Marshall Kittel left before he went to, he went to Quickstep. I think Tom Dumoulin left with a running contract. Edward Turns went to Trek with a running contract. Mark Hershey, Michael Matthews, Warren Bargil, I mean these are just a few names. There's a lot more. So there is a certain tendency in that team to let a rider go for, in my opinion, a certain, I mean, a good amount of money. And, and I also read somewhere else on social media that they had a big loss in 2022 and 2023. So I think it's a matter of time. Honestly, this is just a gut feeling, you know, I have absolutely no information, but I can, I can perfectly see Oscar only not riding for Picnic Post NL and riding for ineos. And I think for him it makes sense, you know, I mean, he's obviously a big talent for it in the Tour de France. And if you're in a team that cannot give you the stability for the next three years, then it's normal that you look for somewhere else and don't know who his agent is. But he probably has a good agent.

Spencer (7:04)

So.

Johan Berniel (7:06)

Oscar only, in my opinion is writing for Ineos in 2026.

Spencer (7:10)

What, what's his name? Luke. Luke Groff. He's the producer at Lantern Rouge. He had figures. I don't think he cited his source. I'm like hesitant to even say the figures, but they were big losses. And that said the total budget was less than 15 million euros a year. But that's like men's, women's and development team. That doesn't seem like enough money. And that would probably explain the losses and that they potentially need the cash injection and to not be liable for his salary next year, I'd assume. So it does make sense that they would sell him just for the financial need. What happened? How does that work? You get a World Tour license for one year and then there's a review process.

Johan Berniel (7:48)

Well, there's every year a review process. You know, you get a World Tour license initially for three years and most of the teams right now they have a three year plan so they can give you a budget projection for the next three years because you need to file all the sponsoring contracts, all the writers contracts, you know, the ins and outs of the money stream. You get a three year license, but every year you need to revise and you need to give new bank guarantees. And here in this case Picnic Postnl is not able to do that. And I think also I think that puts them really in a weak position with regards to Oscar only because it's a writer who was fourth in the Tour de France in 2025. We're going into 2026. But you know, after such a big performance, normally you would renegotiate your contract for the next two or three years. And obviously Spakenbrink is not in a position to do that. So I think he's gonna choose the money spikenbrink and try to sell him to ineos. If it's not done yet, I mean, we'll see what happens.

Spencer (8:59)

Do you think I'll try to sell the whole team? Like sell the license?

Johan Berniel (9:04)

Yeah, you know, I mean, I think initially he's going to try to keep the license and find a new sponsor. But, but, but yeah, if, listen, if somebody else, let's say another manager has sponsorship and says hey, you know what, I have a new sponsor because let's. If, if now for 2026 somebody has.

Sponsor Announcer (9:23)

A new sponsor.

Johan Berniel (9:26)

For 27 and 28. I mean you can't just jump in. You need to wait for three years.

Spencer (9:32)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (9:32)

And so this is a great opportunity in my opinion, to jump in and have the remaining two years of a team of a contract and get that license for 2027 and 2028.

Spencer (9:45)

And then what if you did sell it? How much would that go for.

Johan Berniel (9:49)

Yeah, that's. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think that that particular team probably not so much because even if he doesn't have contracts beyond 2026, pretty sure they're riders with contracts. So you have to, you know, honor those contracts a part of that, you know, what's, what's the word? What's the value of a cycling team really, if you sell a license? It's, it's contracts. I mean, ideally sponsoring contracts. Apparently there are not many of those. There's liabilities, so riders and staff contracts and then there's equipment. There's, you know, buses, vehicles and maybe offices and service course. If it's not, if it's not a lease. Yeah, it could just be a lease. Normally it's a lease, you know, but yeah, I mean, the value is not that much, you know, and especially a team that is in the lower rankings for a number of years now, like Picnic Postnl, I think it would be pretty cheap. Very cheap.

Spencer (10:47)

I listened to a good interview with Tour her shop on the cycling podcast recently, and it's not. It's because he was saying like, oh, like it's good to be World Tour. It's good for our sponsors. They can wrap their head around it. But like, they didn't really. Life is easy if you're a good pro team, like second division team going up to World Tour. It's a lot of responsibility, a lot more money. You have to go to every race.

Johan Berniel (11:09)

There's more obligations.

Spencer (11:10)

Yeah, yeah. And he was saying like, it's great to have done it, but you could imagine a situation where you were a team, an upstart team with the sponsor. It might not be the best thing just to buy a World Tour license. You're like, now we're at the Tour de France. It's like, that sounds appealing, but there are downsides to it and you have to live up to it.

Johan Berniel (11:26)

It's a budget. It's a budget question. You know, if a big sponsor really wants in and straight away go to the biggest league, then you can do it. But yeah, I mean, listen, I'm not saying that's going to happen. You know, I think, I think Spic and Brink will first of all try to find sponsorship to remain, you know, in the, in the World Tour. It's, it is quite, also, it's quite attractive for a new sponsor to say, okay, if you come in in 20, 27 and 28, we can guarantee you all the big races.

Spencer (11:58)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (11:59)

You know, even if it's with a lower budget, you're in. Right. If he, if he gets his budget, I mean there's no minimum on a, on a budget for the World Tour, like legally or, you know, the rules don't say you have to have this, this is the minimum. So if these numbers are true that, you know, it's less than 15 million, it's definitely the lowest of all the World Tour teams. But they're still world tool. They're still, they're doing all the big races, they're doing the Tour de France, they're doing the Giro, they're doing the vta and they're in the big league.

Spencer (12:30)

So I guess the effective minimum would be 28 times the minimum salary and the gas in hotel room going to the race, which, I mean that would be something to have a whole team on minimum salaries. I want to see somebody do that. Yeah, that it probably is slightly higher than you'd think. I heard that, I heard a team had a gas bill over a million euros.

Johan Berniel (12:54)

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean if it's big, I mean big vehicles and you have to travel all over Europe with buses and trucks and the prices of gas here are through the roof. When you, as an American you come here, you say, okay, this is, yeah, you pay here per liter what you pay for a gallon in the U.S.

Spencer (13:09)

Like in France, it's probably $10 a gallon. Yeah, yeah. So we're going to go into French gas. Second, our second section here. I just, I forgot what I was going to say, but Benny and was like announced at the NSN team camp media day. Are uniforms getting worse? What is going on? The cycling kit.

Johan Berniel (13:31)

Well, you know, I've read a lot about it, about that uniform, I have to say. You know, I mean, I mean I initially I say wow, but I actually like it, man. I think it's, I think it's very, I mean it draws the attention, it sticks out and it's different than any traditional cycling uniform. And I think for that team, you know, it's, it's definitely a sign. This is a new team, a new image. Completely different than anything else of what they had before and anything else than everybody else. So I have to say I, I, I, I, I kind of like it. They're, you know, we're definitely going to see them these and, and it's, you.

Spencer (14:18)

Know, I guess we should probably have Gabriel put a picture of the kid up.

Johan Berniel (14:22)

Yeah. Just talking about. Let's do, yeah, let's do that.

Spencer (14:24)

Yeah. It's kind of like peachy. I don't know, it's like very 1980s?

Johan Berniel (14:28)

Well, yeah, yeah. But no, I mean, I like it. I like it. I actually just talked about it. About it. Like just before you got here, Spencer, I had a call with one of our sponsors, Echo there. They're sponsoring NSN cycling team. And yeah, they. Echo also, they, they, they love the design also new bikes, right, The Scott bikes.

Spencer (14:55)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (14:56)

So everything's different.

Spencer (14:59)

Yeah. Yeah.

Johan Berniel (15:00)

Well, I mean, we'll see. I mean, Binyam Girmay has been confirmed. You know, he's the number one rider on that team. What do you think, Spencer? What are your thoughts on, on his. What level can he reach? Where do you see Binyam Girmai in 2026 season cycling? You know, didn't have a great season the year before. He won three stages at the Tour. Right. In 2024. And the green jersey.

Spencer (15:30)

Yeah, green jersey. Three.

Johan Berniel (15:32)

Three stages at the Tour.

Spencer (15:33)

At the Tour, kind of. He, he's, I mean, he's a very good writer. I like the signing for him. Even if he's, let's say he stinks it up for the rest of his career. It's almost worth it for them because they have, now they have an identity and they've changed the conversation. It's not just about, yeah, the protests and everything. Like, they really have an identity. They can build on that. He's pretty good even when he's in a funk, which you, I, you would say he was probably in a bit of a funk this year. You look at his results, he's still contesting stages of the Tour. Yeah, that's not nothing. And I mean, he was what I think he was second or third in the green jersey standings. So it wasn't, he was terrible. But he, he's one of these riders where even you go back at the great tour that he had last year, like, kind of a disappointing year up until then, but he does seem able to like, meet that level. You know, he'll be lower than you think he is, and he can kind of show up and hit that level. It's not clear to me why he's not as consistent as we want.

Johan Berniel (16:29)

I think 2026 is going to be very, very crucial for him. If he can come back to something that was similar to his best level, I would say, okay, you know, he's, he's still, he's still up there. I mean, once you're out of the game, I mean, out of the game, like not in the top three or not contesting these sprints anymore for two or more seasons. I think the way cycling at the Speed cycling is evolving now and the levels going up year after year. I'm a bit worried, I'm a bit worried in his favor. You know, he is still quite young. I think we, we often make the mistake. Binyam Girmay, we kind of see him as a veteran already but you know, he turned pro really young. I think if I'm not mistaken, in the junior rankings, I think he was probably the only writer to ever beat Remco Evenepoel in the juniors. Binyam Gilmay, now I'm thinking about it, he was so, you know, let's give him some time but definitely in 2026 he will need to step up as the leader of NSN Cycling and, and needs to perform again.

Spencer (17:52)

Yeah, yeah, I, I don't want to say the, the F word, but you do worry. It's this like from 2.0, like they, they signed a very expensive writer that was an albatross on their neck for years. But he's 25 and he's coming off you finish. I'm looking at his real results. Finish the season. You would not say fantastically, I think. And I think he lost to Arno de Le, who would have been his rival for leadership had he stayed by like in seven consecutive races. But did we hear anything about this season? Like, why was he off the level?

Johan Berniel (18:25)

I don't know. I don't know.

Spencer (18:27)

Yeah, it's, it is concerning.

Johan Berniel (18:29)

I mean, obviously, listen, let's, we, we also need to, you know, think about. There has been a lot of uncertainty around that team for the whole season now obviously the financial problems they had during the season. Gilmay for sure also was informed about this. I think that there had been issues with his bonuses in 2024. They didn't get paid, so I don't know if they got paid now already or not. But you know, that obviously has an impact on a rider and his season. If you have worries, first of all, you don't know every month if you're going to get your salary or not. And then nobody, I mean the uncertainty about the year after has been there, I think in my opinion the whole season. So this might have had an impact on Gilmai more than we think.

Spencer (19:21)

Well, here's another question, but I like it. I like the signing for innocent. I think it's important for them and I don't think they had a lot of other options. If Derek Chi's gone, what are you going to do? You can't. But do they have Inter Marche for all their failings? Pretty strong team like they supported him really well. They, like you look at their roster at any given classic race and they just have a lot of guys you imagine contesting for the win. Does NSN have the same level of support that is your premier tech, that Inter Marcheh? Inter Marcheh, Yeah. They're not connected teams, NSN and Israel.

Johan Berniel (19:56)

Yeah. I don't know. I think for the. Yeah, I think for the classics, probably, yes. I think they have good riders to support Gilmay. I mean he is for sure gonna be the number one leader in the races that suit him. So. No, I think so. I think, I mean certainly in terms of the whole staff and the infrastructure around the team is going to be a lot better for Gilmay than at Inter Marche. Yeah.

Spencer (20:29)

I mean, what do you think the budget of that team was? We were talking about a 15 million euro budget.

Johan Berniel (20:33)

Inter marche. They're up there with.

Spencer (20:35)

It's.

Johan Berniel (20:35)

I think with. They're up there with Bignik Picnic Boston. L. I think so.

Spencer (20:40)

I mean we were hearing figures about their title sponsorship commitment and it was shocking. So yeah, yeah, I, I would be surprised if it was 50 million. But let's take a quick ad break and then we'll be right back everybody.

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Spencer (21:33)

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Spencer (22:53)

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Johan Berniel (22:55)

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Spencer (23:36)

I've spent the last few days at the uae. I've been poking around the UAE team hotel for their camp, talking to some people at Column Colonago, if people remember. I. I don't even really know why I got this in my head, but I just think I thought the bike looked heavy, and then they were using it inconsistently throughout the year. My thought was like, well, maybe it's too heavy. They're only using it to appease the sponsor when they need to. But they like the. I think it's the V5 was the classic road bike one. And then they, they rolled it out for Oticom. Pretty good result there. The time trial the next day, you would say that wasn't too bad for Pigachar. And then he never left it like he's been on it ever since. So it would confirm that he liked it. But one thing that they pointed out to me is like, okay, you're saying they didn't use it in the classics? Well, you don't understand the classics where everything was prepared for the classics and tested like six months before the classics. And so I found out yesterday, Tadde Pagachar, Tim Wellens and I think Florian Vermeesh were, they were up. I was in Brussels briefly. I thought, wow, this looks terrible, this weather. I wouldn't want to be out there riding. But they were out there previewing, I believe Perry, testing equipment on it. And like I was somewhat shocked to find out that's. And they had, you know, a lot of resources up there, very smart people from both Colonago and the team supporting them. It's shocking to know that this is when the decisions for equipment are made for Paris Roubaix, which is half a year away.

Johan Berniel (25:09)

Yeah, I mean we all saw the images on social media, you know, of Pogat. I mean they can't, I mean they wanted to go incognito, but they can't go anywhere incognito.

Spencer (25:17)

Someone told me he went in to get a haircut for Gotcha. It was like people. Yeah, taking his picture, haircuts.

Johan Berniel (25:24)

But yeah, I mean, it's true. You know, equipment is being tested now in the winter. We also saw Walt von Aert and Visma testing out the, the wheels, you know, the self inflating and deflating hubs that were already used. Last year they tested it again. I saw some images of, out on the, on the cobbles, really bad weather. I mean it's, it's. Yeah, I'm not going to say shocking, but it is what's apparently what they do now.

Spencer (25:55)

And did you have George out there like early December?

Johan Berniel (25:59)

Never. No, no, you would never. I mean, back in the day, never. Nobody, nobody did that.

Spencer (26:05)

No.

Johan Berniel (26:06)

Normally, I mean, for Pugach it's a bit different because it's a new race for him. Right. So he did it the first time as a professional last year. He had done it already as a junior Paridobe, but so he's still learning that race. But I mean even a guy like Van Aert, who has done it many, many times, who knows the race in and out is already testing equipment. And with Visma. So no, no, I mean this is something that you would not even think about to do this in December. No way. So yeah, listen, in today's cycling they are super prepared for everything. The calendar is announced. You know, many teams announce their teams already or they line up for classics, which leaders are doing which races. So it's just part of it. And, and I think it says a lot about Pogacar's ambition for those races for Roubaix and also for Milan San Remo, but specifically Roubaix.

Spencer (27:11)

I mean he could easily not have gone. He'd be here. The weather's bad for here, but it's pretty nice.

Johan Berniel (27:15)

I think he came a day late because of that because I think part of the team was here already and he came, I'm going to guess he arrived yesterday because today actually I rode with friends, you know, a lap. We did 100 kilometers and yeah, they, they, they passed the team, passed us fly. I mean we don't go very fast. First of all, we're old people, but we, we, you know how we, our group were called the omils. You know that you have mammals as middle aged men in Lycra. We are the omils, the old man in Lycra. So yeah, they passed us. They were at cruise speed, talking and they were, it was impressive. But I think he came a bit late to the training camp because he first went to Belgium and North of France to preview that, not preview. I think it was more equipment testing than previewing the course.

Spencer (28:13)

Yeah, because when I heard he was there, I was thinking, oh, he's previewing the course. They said, no, it's all equipment testing. They're trying to figure out what they're going to run.

Johan Berniel (28:23)

Well, I mean, what, what would they be testing then? Obviously they're not going to ride the, the aero bike. I saw on the pictures it's the traditional shaped frame. But we don't know if it, that's if it's their traditional frame or if it's a special frame for Roubaix. I don't know, wheels, tires.

Spencer (28:40)

I spent an hour this morning with the lead engineer at Colonago and he, maybe he just believes in the aero bike a lot. But he was saying, well, there is high speed. If you want to go solo, maybe the aero bike is the way to go. So on the cobbles it's pretty, I wrote it today. It's pretty stiff. I don't know.

Johan Berniel (28:57)

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, we. Spencer, listen, I mean you're obviously, you're a lot Younger. But you can't compare our feelings on a bike, on any bike, compared to professional. You know, whatever it feels on a bike, it makes. No, doesn't matter. They. They ride these. You have to compare this Spencer to us riding a super nice car. And then they give us a formula one car. We would not be able to drive.

Spencer (29:23)

It out of the driveway.

Johan Berniel (29:24)

Same way with the bikes, you know.

Spencer (29:26)

Well, I'm on this bike that Pagachar had right before me, and they had to change. I could not have ridden it. They had to change the seat post because he sits so far forward. I don't think I could have successfully ridden it a couple miles. That's how modified these positions are.

Johan Berniel (29:42)

So you got the bike now and you're gonna. You're gonna test it here or what are you gonna do?

Spencer (29:47)

Yeah, test it here and then fly home with it and then maybe fly to San Diego or something. Find. Find nice weather. It is slightly warm and bolder now that I've left.

Johan Berniel (29:57)

Well, you know, we didn't. You're not. We're not lucky with the weather here because we're. I'm here for three days. I mean, initially three days. I'm probably gonna stay a bit longer. But today, Friday, it was the best day. Saturday, Sunday, tomorrow, and the day after, it's gonna rain. So I don't think you're gonna get a lot of riding in.

Spencer (30:15)

Well, we'll see. Well, Sunday looks dire, and Sunday was the day to ride a lot. But I was. They were also testing. I don't know if I should say specifically what, but some tire widths that kind of shocked me. Just for the regular road bike. I do wonder if we're gonna see tire widths, like, take a step up.

Johan Berniel (30:35)

So wider.

Spencer (30:37)

Quite a bit wide.

Johan Berniel (30:38)

34.

Spencer (30:38)

Even bigger than that.

Johan Berniel (30:40)

Wow.

Spencer (30:40)

Yeah. And they were. Pagatro. It was the day he was not at the camp.

Johan Berniel (30:45)

I mean, I think It's. I think 34, 35. It's. It's big. But I wrote I've been riding 35s, like, road. Road tires on a gravel bike. It rides very smooth. Probably not. You know, to be competitive, it must be a bit slower, in my opinion. That's heavier. Yeah.

Spencer (31:05)

And it's just a lot of rubber.

Johan Berniel (31:07)

Yeah.

Spencer (31:07)

Get up to that. Yeah. But.

Johan Berniel (31:09)

But Pogachar usually. I mean, it's already a few years now that he's. He rides 30 millimeters all year round, whereas everybody else rides 28s. Or most of them ride 28s.

Spencer (31:21)

Yeah, they were walking me through it. That he stepped his width up. I mean, these also, these rims, these Envy rims, we're not sponsored by Envy. They're pretty impressive. And they, the tire sits on there so well. So whatever they're doing, it's, it's working out well.

Johan Berniel (31:35)

Yeah, it works well for Pugach.

Spencer (31:37)

You mentioned that they passed you.

Johan Berniel (31:40)

How do they.

Spencer (31:41)

I don't think. If you've never been to a camp, you probably imagine it's like a group ride. They just go out and they're drifted every day. But it's not like that. They have days where they're going slower, they're going faster. How do they map that up?

Johan Berniel (31:53)

I think, I mean, although it seemed to us that they were flying, in my opinion today was just an endurance day. Just, you know, they were going fast, but they were chatting. These guys always ride fast, you know, so I think it was just an endurance day with the group today. And, and then probably they're going to have other days where they do specific, specific exercises. But who was it who said. Oh, it was. I saw an interview with Niel Spollett. I don't know if you saw that interview a few weeks ago. And, and he said, you know, like at uae, the training, the group trainings are just insane. It's basically, you know, they're just racing. He was at training camp last year here and they did one big ride of like 200k. And his average watts on that training ride were higher than his, his watts at Tour de Flanders. Tour Flanders of the whole. So imagine the intensity of the training rides at that team.

Spencer (32:57)

You, I think you mentioned that it was last year, the year before they did it. It's like a 30 minute out, maybe it was long, maybe a shorter, like a 15 minute out and back time trial. All out at training camp this time of year. It's. And when you see these guys walking around, they look race fit. It's. I mean, they must show up almost at their race level. We talked about this in weeks past. We don't quite get it, but it's, you see them in person and it's. Brings it home how fit they are coming.

Johan Berniel (33:23)

Yeah. And you know, I mean, they race, they don't race many days. You know, I mean, that's it, that's what completely changed. You know, I, I published on my social media the other day, you know, a screenshot of my journal from my first Tour de France season when I was a young professional and I had, it was my last race, Lombardy, I had abandoned and I had 35,500km that year and 123 race days. And you know, if you look at certain riders programs now it's 123.

Spencer (34:00)

That's still the mod.

Johan Berniel (34:01)

Yeah. So if, no, if you look, if you look, you take, take out the, the, you know, the winter. So. So basically November, December, January, no races. Yeah, so that's basically one race every second day.

Spencer (34:13)

Wow, that's. Could be too much race.

Johan Berniel (34:17)

No, that was, that was crazy. That was crazy. But you know, it was, that was the way it was then. You know, you raced yourself into shape. You did a lot of races where you were just not competitive, but you just were there for training. That's obviously not possible anymore today because races are such a high level. You show up at any easy early season race and if you're not, if you're not fit, you're dropped. So doesn't matter which category of race, if it's a, if it's a World Tour race or a, a pro two pro race or a 1.1, whatever, you're dropped.

Spencer (34:51)

Yeah. I mean just think about Oscar Onlay. The last two years he's been really good at Tour Down Under. It's not seemed to hurt his Tour to friends he got top five at the Tour. You mentioned not a lot of races. Remco Evanopol came out with the schedule today. What were the highlights? And then I think the major highlight is it's only 40 days of racing.

Johan Berniel (35:11)

Well, I mean we talked about Remco's program when there was these rumors about Giro and Tour of Flanders especially.

Spencer (35:18)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (35:19)

And I was critical about it. I said it was a bad idea. Obviously this is not the reason they didn't listen to the, I mean maybe they did listen to the podcast, but.

Spencer (35:28)

That'S not, you can't judge this, but.

Johan Berniel (35:29)

That'S not the reason. But you know, it's a traditional program. You know, he's going to focus on the Ardennes, so flesh. Well, only at Baston Liege, Amstel Gold Race and Dauphine, whatever it's called now, Ron. Yeah, anyway, let's call it Dauphine and Tour de France and then the world Championships after that. Yeah, I did a quick, a quick Catalunya also. He does so you know, he does two one week races. Two of the, of the seven one week races. So I think in my opinion that should be a focus for him. But if you, you know, add all the races, it's, it's 40 races in the whole season. So not a lot. But you also have to say that if a rider like Remco evenepool in a team like Red Bull, you know, he's, he's hired there to win every single race on his program is to perform. There is no races there that he's not going to have any pressure. He has the pressure all the time to perform. So. And I think for a rider like Remco, you know, I think that works because I've seen a lot of times that when he comes back from a training block without any races, he performs.

Spencer (36:49)

That's true.

Johan Berniel (36:50)

Mostly the best.

Spencer (36:51)

Yes.

Johan Berniel (36:52)

So doesn't need a lot of races, but 40, 40 races is not a lot.

Spencer (36:58)

Just to give people perspective on this or context. Bagacha didn't race like he had maybe the lightest race number of race days of his career, maybe outside of 2020 and it was 50, so it's 10 less than that. And even Evanopole, I'm looking at 2023. He raised 68 days. So it's a significant step down.

Johan Berniel (37:16)

I know, I know a guy who did less races, I mean than 40. In my opinion, it's Matthew van der Poel. If you look at, look, look him up, you'll see he might be.

Spencer (37:26)

You're right. I mean even just think of the races that we saw him at. Try to count them in your head. It's so few. 40. 41.

Johan Berniel (37:35)

41 this year.

Spencer (37:36)

Well, because he did the Tour all the way to.

Johan Berniel (37:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Spencer (37:40)

Was there years where he's always done a Grand Tour? No, wait, what about like 2021? Yeah, he's 37 race days in 2021. Wow.

Johan Berniel (37:51)

But you know, I mean, listen, that's the same thing, Mathieu. Every single race he starts, he has to perform. That's, you know, that's the label he has. He needs to be, you know, the leader of the team and perform. So. And, and you know, the good thing about these guys is that usually they do deliver. You know, they're not always winning, but they're always in it for the win.

Spencer (38:12)

So Remco's going to the Tour. I'd assume with Lipovitz. Red Bull strategy will be. They're both leaders. Co.

Johan Berniel (38:19)

Yes. Yeah, yeah, they announced that already.

Spencer (38:21)

Yeah. And no, Roglic is not so Roglic.

Johan Berniel (38:24)

Has announced that he's not doing the Tour. He's focusing on the vta. So I think that's smart. If you look at Roglic, you know, so no Tour. Yes to the Vuelta. I think, you know, he can become the all time record holder of the Vuelta if he wins, he's going to have won it five times, which is. Nobody has done it. Now he's equal tie with Roberto Eras. They both have four. I think, in my opinion this is just me thinking. Right. I have no information. But I think that Roglic will also do the Tour of Switzerland because it's the only one of the seven important one week races he hasn't won. He has won everything else. He has won Tirino, he has won Parinis, he has won the Basque country, he won Catalunya, he won Romandy, and he won the Dauphine already. So if he wins Tour Switzerland, he fulfills that. He's won all seven of those. And then also, I mean, if Roglic can focus on his own races and races where Bogachar is not racing, I think Roglic could get to 100 victories this season. He has won 91 races so far. So I think Roglic has his own program, his own goals, and I think it's very achievable.

Spencer (39:40)

And so, I mean, if you wins the Volta, that's. That's pretty good for Red Bull and him not going to the Tour. Did they say anything about the Giro?

Johan Berniel (39:49)

They didn't say yet about the Giro. I do think that they're probably going to send Belizari. Belize has publicly said that he would love to do the Giro, but it's the team who decides. And then, you know, they also have Jay Hindley, ex Giro winner, got second.

Spencer (40:05)

At the Giro two years ago. I forgot about this, to be completely honest.

Johan Berniel (40:09)

Yeah. Daniel Felipe Martinez.

Spencer (40:11)

And he's on that team.

Johan Berniel (40:12)

Yeah, yeah. Another guy who, I mean, I hope he can get back, but you know, this year was not a good season for. For Felipe Martinez. Daniel Felipe Martinez.

Spencer (40:24)

No, I would not say that was. Especially in a team like that. Because you mentioned Jai Henley. A few years in the wilderness. Now he's back.

Johan Berniel (40:30)

Yeah.

Spencer (40:30)

Looking great. And I assume he'll go to the Giro as well. Let's take a quick break and then I want to talk to you about this phenomenon of. Why do we know all this Right now? It seems like it's coming out way too early. I don't fully get it, but we'll be right back.

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Spencer (43:21)

So Johan, we were just talking obviously about what races these top stars are going to, so they're all sitting at their team hotel hotels right now at training camp. They know where they're going, where they're not going. I think the big news of the day, the one that maybe didn't shock me and maybe we saw coming, but it's still surprising. Jonathan Milan not going to the Tudor, France. It's Mads Pedersen's time.

Sponsor Announcer (43:43)

Why.

Spencer (43:43)

Why is Little Check doing this? Why not send both of them? Like, is this sustainable? Like a one for him, one for Mads, one for Milan?

Johan Berniel (43:51)

I think so. I mean, listen, they. Last year they left. I mean, this season they left Peterson out. I mean, not left them out. They obviously agreed upon it. And Patterson did a great Giro and a great Vuelta.

Spencer (44:04)

Yeah, actually, maybe.

Johan Berniel (44:06)

And had a great classic season. I mean, you know, he was all the time up there with the top three, top four. But yeah, let's not forget that this year, Little Trek didn't have any GC ambitions. They were focusing completely on the green jersey, and they won it with Milan. But next season, there's Juana Yousso, who wants to go for GC in the Tour. So they have to divide the team. And in my opinion, with a guy who wants to go for gc, apparently Skelmosa is also on the team for the Tour. So they have two riders for gc. And I think Pedersen fits that team better because Pedersen is also a guy that, on the days that are not for him, he is an incredible support rider. Whereas Milan, in my opinion, his climbing abilities are a bit less than Pedersen and will not be of. Of that service to the leaders for gc.

Spencer (45:12)

Yeah, that's a good. I mean, Pedersen, what was that? The vault this year where he was like, the domestic work was really impressive. Really impressive. So let's say Jonathan Milan goes back to the Tour next year. Unobstructed, does he win another green jersey or. Because that was a unique. I feel like that was a unique situation.

Johan Berniel (45:33)

Yeah, I mean, you know, that. Let's not forget Philipson crashed out.

Spencer (45:38)

Yeah. And Philipson wins that.

Johan Berniel (45:41)

Patterson was not there. You know, Peterson is an incredible writer for the points jersey. You know, he's. He's already. He's won the. He won the green jersey two or not already.

Spencer (45:52)

I don't know about that. I think he won it. That. This year. This year.

Johan Berniel (45:55)

No, he won in Giro in the.

Spencer (45:56)

Vuelta, but I don't think he's won the green jersey.

Johan Berniel (45:59)

No, no, no. He didn't know. Little track won the green jersey and the points jersey in all three Grand Tours. Yeah, that's. Yeah. But Listen, Mats Pedersen is an incredible writer. I think, you know, having him as one of the. Of your protected writers for the points classification, it's, I would say, between him and Jonathan Milam, if I have to choose, I think statistically there's probably more chance Pedersen wins it than Milan.

Spencer (46:33)

Yeah. And this year was. You had these weird situations where I don't know why they did this. The sprint point would be like 20k into the stage, so they would just have Quinn Simmons control it. Milan would get it. You can imagine a Tour where it's a bit more difficult than that to grab those points. But so they've set these races as just as a manager, a man manager.

Sponsor Announcer (46:56)

Would you rather have this?

Spencer (46:57)

And now everyone's kind of, as you say, it's split into camps. You know, I. Okay, I'm doing this, but I kind of want to be doing that. And I have my allies on the team now aligned with me against this guy. Or would you rather have everyone trying to impress you all year, trying to get on that Tour team?

Johan Berniel (47:15)

Well, I think, you know, it's still the case. You know, let's not forget the. The teams, normally, they announce the program of their leaders because we live in an era where, you know, with. With social media and the demands of the media are so, you know, really demanding that you kind of have to say, okay, this is what I'm going to do. There's no rule for that. You don't have to. But what I would. I mean, I would be more in favor of obviously discussing it internally and deciding internally at the beginning of the season, okay, in the. These are the big lines like that say, okay, this leader, this is his program. This is what we're going to try to achieve. But we all know that the season can change. You know, there are a lot of things that, you know, I am not completely in favor of already saying, okay. For the Tour de France, for example, for example, Visma has done this already a couple of years now. These are the eight riders for the Tour. You know, this is, in my opinion, it's. It's not ideal, because I think you need more. You need to have your core five, six riders. And then for those last two places, I think it's, in my opinion, the way I see it, it's good that there's a healthy internal competition for those last spots, because it brings up the level of the team, and we all know that it can change. Because if now, in December, you already say to a guy who's number nine or ten, ten on the List. Hey, you're not in the eight. Sorry. It can be counterproductive, you know, I mean, the guy can, the guy can say, okay, you know what? I think I deserve to be on there. Screw you guys, I'm going to look for another team already.

Spencer (49:00)

Yeah. Especially if you tell them Jan1 or whatever.

Johan Berniel (49:03)

Yeah. I mean, it depends how the discussions go, of course, but I think it should be, it should be the, you know, the core. The way we did it. I mean, and I don't want to say that it was better, you know, but I always had, I mean, first of all, we never had 30 riders. We had 20, 22, 25, sometimes maximum. And so you had, let's say 12 to 14 riders who, when we were focusing on the Tour de France, these are the 12 or the 14 riders who can be in the team for the Tour. It was still nine riders then. And you have that conversation with these riders in the off season at the first training camp. Okay, you know what? You're on the long list of the Tour and this is the program we're going to do to lead up and then we're deciding in the month before. Usually you go step wise after the classics or after the first stage race, you say, okay, you know what, this is my core group. If nothing happens, these six are sure. And then the last two or three, usually we were, we decided after Dauphine and to the Swiss who was, whoever was in great shape because you can have a guy who was on the list of eight and is for some reason doesn't work out. I mean, nothing says that these teams who announce these selections already now they allowed to change it, you know, I mean, nobody can tell them. Okay, now you announced it, now you have to take those eight. It changes. But I think it should be a mix of both, not, not set in stone already in, in December or. You know, I, I'm not, I'm not a big fan of that.

Spencer (50:44)

I guess. Now that just as you were talking, I was thinking maybe what's slightly different now is these altitude camps are so numerous, so planted.

Johan Berniel (50:54)

Yes.

Spencer (50:54)

That for sure you're going to the Tour. You should probably be at these altitude camps.

Johan Berniel (50:58)

Yeah.

Spencer (50:58)

They're spending so much money on them. They want you to be there adapting, getting the training.

Johan Berniel (51:03)

Yeah, I know, Spencer, but you know what I mean, if we. Look, we just talked about Remco 40 races. Let's say, you know, nowadays the guys who do the most race is probably 60, 65.

Spencer (51:14)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (51:14)

You know, there's still a lot of. I mean, it doesn't mean because you're going to do, let's say Catalonia and Dauphine in the lead up. I mean, other riders can do Romandy and Tour of Switzerland, and in between those races, you can also still do training camps. Now, of course, logistically, it becomes complicated for a team. Right. It's better you have your core group to follow that, that program with the staff and. But yeah, I mean, listen, you're right. You know, it's changed so much that the training camps, the altitude training camps are obviously a big influence in, in those decisions of those programs.

Spencer (51:57)

Yeah. So The Larry Warbust 2023, this is the most race days I've seen in recent history. 90 race days. And that's like the most. You know, there's maybe a few people touching a hundred sometimes. But you're right, they have trimmed that and. Yeah, yeah, I, I don't really get it. I'm just, I was just trying to think of reasons why you would maybe want to define that as early as possible. But you know what, you're just talking about Tour, Switzerland, Primo preparing. Did you notice that they trimmed it to five days?

Johan Berniel (52:29)

I saw that. Yeah.

Spencer (52:30)

That's got to really mess with the preparation. I mean, it's good for Primos if he's just trying to show up and win. He doesn't care about the Tour. But if you're a Tour contender or even just racing the Tour, it's like, well, that's. What do you do? Like, do you try to combine that with a training camp?

Johan Berniel (52:44)

Yeah, you have to. You have to. You have more altitude training camp. It was super intensive racing during five days and the Tour of Switzerland, they will, you know, they will have to have at least two mountain stages.

Spencer (52:58)

Two time trials.

Johan Berniel (52:59)

Two mountain stages, probably a time trial. So, you know, I think it. Yeah, probably no prologue, but because this year there was a prologue and a time and a mountaintop time trial.

Spencer (53:10)

Romandy and Switzerland, for some reason often have two time trials.

Johan Berniel (53:14)

Yeah, well, if you, if you bring it back to five days, you can't have, you cannot have two time trials. Unless one mountain stage is a mountain time trial. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's bizarre. I don't know if, if it's budget wise also. Probably.

Spencer (53:31)

Yeah. And because I think they're independent, they're one of the only independent races left.

Johan Berniel (53:34)

I mean. Yeah, they're not part of ASO or RCS or Flanders Classics. They're, you know, they're, they're an independent race.

Spencer (53:40)

Yeah. Because Amstel got Purchased by Flanders.

Johan Berniel (53:43)

Yes.

Spencer (53:44)

Yeah, I mean, they were. They were doing well. Like, that was a strong race. So if they sold it. Tells you it must be tough sledding for the rest of those teams.

Johan Berniel (53:51)

Yeah.

Spencer (53:52)

Johan, should we.

Johan Berniel (53:53)

Anything else?

Spencer (53:54)

Are we missing any news before we get to the big.

Johan Berniel (53:57)

The big check in of the week.

Spencer (53:58)

The Strava challenge.

Johan Berniel (53:59)

The Strava challenge. How are you doing, Spencer? Well, I mean, unfortunately we have to say, Spencer, in your favor. You know, the luck is not on your side. You know, you. You missed your. Your bag got delayed so you couldn't ride today. I got 100 kilometers, so that's.

Spencer (54:14)

That's crushing. I was thinking it'd be funny if I just didn't. So I. I don't know what happened to it. So what are you.

Johan Berniel (54:20)

What, what, what's your. What is your total? Right now you can only see it.

Spencer (54:23)

On the desktop, right? Oh, you can.

Johan Berniel (54:24)

No, you can see it. So what's your total?

Spencer (54:26)

My total is.

Johan Berniel (54:31)

No, you have to click on there. There you go.

Spencer (54:36)

So you go to.

Johan Berniel (54:37)

Oh, so you go to. You're in miles. Okay, so miles. 7259. So 7260 miles and then. So seven.

Spencer (54:47)

Okay. Remember that?

Johan Berniel (54:48)

What about me?

Spencer (54:50)

Seven two.

Johan Berniel (54:50)

I know I'm more. I. I'm more. I know I passed the 12,000 kilometer mark. So that's, That's. That was my goal this year. So I. Mission accomplished already.

Spencer (54:58)

Okay. Seven four, one five. So it's not quite 200 miles ahead.

Johan Berniel (55:05)

But still, I mean, that's a lot.

Sponsor Announcer (55:07)

That's a lot.

Spencer (55:08)

It's a lot. Like I said, I'm like Roman Bar. I'm in second place. Am I even really in the fight?

Johan Berniel (55:14)

Plus you have to travel back home. But, but, but you have to test this aerodynamic bike now. So maybe, Maybe you're going to catch up.

Spencer (55:22)

Yeah, I have an overnight layover in Brussels. I'll unpack it and maybe I'll go do some Roubaix recon from the airport.

Johan Berniel (55:30)

Or, you know, take a private plane and put the rollers inside the plane.

Spencer (55:34)

Yeah, we might have to. I did. I was picking transit hotels in Brussels and I was like, that one looks like it maybe has a peloton.

Johan Berniel (55:42)

Oh, okay.

Spencer (55:43)

So I can get some content.

Johan Berniel (55:44)

Well, anyway, Spencer, listen. I mean, it's. It's. I think it's a very fun challenge between the both of us. We, we, you know, our fans follow it. I. Sometimes I run into people. I actually run into somebody in Madrid the other day. A French guy who, Who Was who's, you know, big fan of the podcast. And the first thing he asked is, how are you doing compared to Spencer?

Spencer (56:08)

A lot. Funny how much people care.

Johan Berniel (56:11)

No, it's any. Listen, I mean, it doesn't matter where. I mean, we've both ridden a substantial amount of kilometers this season and I mean, I've accomplished my goal already, so anything's a bonus now.

Spencer (56:24)

Yeah, there people, some listeners will know this, but next week I'm participating in a 500 kilometer challenge. It is a chance.

Johan Berniel (56:33)

Okay, where's that? That's not. I mean, it's not in. Not in the United States. Where is it? Somewhere in the Caribbean?

Spencer (56:39)

No, it's just like you can do it. Anyone can do it. It's just like a challenge that some friends and I have been doing every year. And then now like other people are joining it on Strava.

Johan Berniel (56:48)

Oh, Strava. Okay. And so, but so, I mean, zwift counts also.

Spencer (56:51)

Zwift counts also.

Johan Berniel (56:53)

What is it? 500 miles?

Spencer (56:54)

500K?

Johan Berniel (56:55)

500K. So you're going to still do more than you're going to still do 500k this December?

Spencer (57:00)

Oh, yeah.

Johan Berniel (57:01)

Okay. Okay. Well, that's good to know.

Spencer (57:03)

I was not going to tell you ethical. If I'm doing a challenge and I don't mention it to you, I mean.

Johan Berniel (57:09)

Yeah, I mean, it's okay. It means that I can't relax over Christmas.

Spencer (57:14)

It's like, what if someone leaks the information?

Johan Berniel (57:16)

Well, I mean, you know, listen, I mean, you, you can take advantage of. I mean, I'm going five days to Belgium. I'm not taking my bike.

Spencer (57:23)

Huge.

Johan Berniel (57:24)

But after Christmas, I'm coming back here for a week. So that's not good for you.

Spencer (57:31)

It's pretty good riding. We were talking before we recorded. How did, how did it come to be that every. It's Red Bull does Mallorca. I guess because the German. The Germans in the team will not let them not go there.

Johan Berniel (57:44)

But everybody else is here.

Spencer (57:46)

How did that come to be?

Johan Berniel (57:47)

Yeah, I mean, I remember, I listen in early and late 80s already. It started. I mean, I came here early 90s when I signed for Onse and I actually lived here for 10 years in the village nearby here. And since then, I mean this, this point on the map of Spain, you know, between Valencia and Alicante, statistically, over the winter, I mean winter and spring, it is by far the best weather. And yeah, there's many, many riders who. First of all, there's riders who permanently live here, like Mathieu van der Poel. Lives here permanently. Remco lives here permanently. And then there's many riders who rent something for three months, four months. And also I think that, you know, the hotel infrastructure is amazing for teams. I mean you're at the UAE camp. I mean, I'm going to guess, take a wild guess, but between the pro team, the women's team. Is the women's team there?

Spencer (58:49)

Yeah.

Johan Berniel (58:49)

And the development team, I'm going to say it's at least 150 people, if not more.

Spencer (58:54)

I mean they have so much that it's shocking.

Johan Berniel (58:56)

And so there are not many regions that can actually cater for that amount of people. I mean they're all in the same hotel, right? Yeah, so. So, yeah, and there's many, many, many hotels. Plus, you know, something also considerable is that in this winter period, the prices are actually very cheap compared to other regions. So it makes a lot of sense. I mean if you have on in the team's budget, if you do a training camp of two weeks with 100 plus people, that's, that's a big amount of money.

Spencer (59:31)

Yeah, yeah. I was saying I'm staying in Benidorm like, but up on the hill it's quite nice. But when you look down at the city, it is, it's weird there's so many skyscrapers because they're probably like we got to fit as many rooms in here as possible. So let's build 50 story hotel room. Yeah, hotel buildings. I mean the UAE one night you mentioned is kind of perfect. I looked at the price. Not expensive per room. At the top of the hill into the road, you can kind of take, you can spread out, take over the garage, I assume. And yeah, there's maybe not the, and it's supposedly dry here even though it's not dry this weekend. But there's not many places that. Check all those boxes.

Johan Berniel (60:08)

Yeah, for sure. Plus the riding is amazing also. Yeah, you can ride flat, you can gentle climbs. Bigger climbs. I mean obviously not real big mountain passes but you know, there's, there's some pretty big climbs. There's some climbs of 7, 8, 10 kilometers. So it's, it's, you don't need anything, anything more for this time of the year.

Spencer (60:28)

And smooth roads, which, yeah, you go.

Johan Berniel (60:30)

To Italy and a lot of back roads. Plus what you also have, Spencer, I mean you will see if you manage to get some rides in. The drivers here are very used to seeing so many cyclists. Nobody gets upset. Which is, you know, big a big, big plus for to come train here.

Spencer (60:50)

Yeah, it's a Nice culture too. Like, I showed up two hours late to the car rental place in the U.S. they would probably hassle you about that. That's not a problem. Like nothing's a problem.

Johan Berniel (61:01)

Well, Spain is, you know, it's. Yeah, it's not today. It's Manana. Mana.

Spencer (61:06)

That. That part of the culture is nice. When you order room service for lunch, it doesn't show up. Four hours. That's the down. But, Johan, it was. It was great doing this in person. Anything else before we take off?

Johan Berniel (61:16)

Well, no, I hope. I hope you can sort everything out logistically and that we can get a ride in together before the end of the weekend.

Spencer (61:24)

Hilarious. If we did not. Yeah, but I didn't actually bring the stuff.

Sponsor Announcer (61:28)

Like I don't know where the guy is.

Spencer (61:30)

They're not showing up with the shoes. But no, it was great doing this and hopefully we get a ride in and.

Johan Berniel (61:35)

Yeah.

Spencer (61:36)

Back next week on Monday with George.

Johan Berniel (61:38)

And we'll be back on Monday.

Spencer (61:39)

Trades and transfers.

Johan Berniel (61:40)

Yeah.

Spencer (61:40)

Which hopefully this Oscar Onley thing is resolved by then so we can talk about.

Johan Berniel (61:45)

Won't be resolved by then. I. I mean, whatever we're gonna get is gonna be rumors not confirmed. Yeah.

Spencer (61:51)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll see.

Johan Berniel (61:53)

Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Spencer. Okay. Hey, guys.

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