Johan Bruyneel (4:52)

Yeah, well, it's unclear, Spencer. It's true. It's been quiet for a while, which, you know, doesn't necessarily mean that nothing's happening. I think projects like this, initiatives like this, especially when it's, you know, very likely to disrupt the system and make some really unhappy parties amongst them, probably UCI, aso, some organizers. I don't have the details, but I have spoken to someone two days ago, three days ago, and somebody who's close to the project and he confirmed to me that it's still very much alive, that the Saudis, so it's the public investment fund pif and one of their sub companies is called Surge, which I think is one of the companies that takes care of, of sporting projects. They are very determined to make it happen. And what did he say again? He said it's, you know, it's. He talked to me about, you know, indefinite amount of money that they're ready to throw against it. So his words are, this is going to happen, this is going to happen in one way or another. Now, I don't think, I mean, if what I think personally, Spencer, the way, the way I have seen projects like this in the past, because there has been initiatives like this, they all, you know, more or less have the same principles, is that if it's the teams who have to be in the driving seat, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. There's too much different interest, there's too much rivalry, there's too much lack of trust amongst the teams. And that's exactly what the strong parties like UCI and ASO have always played with. They said, you know what, do whatever you want, guys. We know that you guys are going to mess it up by yourselves. And on top of that, a project like that takes time. It takes three, four, five years to solidify. And I think that the UCI and aso, to name the two strong parties within cycling, know that nobody has the, the power or the, the can the luxury to. They constantly need to look for new sponsorship, so they are vulnerable and fragile. So who is whoever is in the driving seat? Because, you know, we've seen many times that it was Visma who was at the initiative and Richard Plugger was, you know, basically that the initiative man of, of the Company One Cycling. But, you know, no matter how strong Visma is right now, they are constantly struggling to serve for survival because they need to renew every two, three years. They need to fight for the riders to keep the riders. Riders go. And. And so it needs, you know, the teams cannot be in the driver's seat. They can be participants to the project, but it needs to be a strong unit. And I think that this company, Surge or pif, is probably a party that they have a lot of power, they have a lot of money, and they can force the other parties to the table. I don't have the details of what's going to happen, but last time we checked, I think that RCS was part of the project and Flanders Classics was part of the project. So it's basically just aso, you know, if ASO gets to the table, then it's, you know, it's going to happen. So I think ultimately it's going to happen at some point. It's not because it's been quiet that things haven't been happening behind the scenes. So I still think one cycling is a real thing.

Spencer Martin (9:17)

And how. Just help us visualize this. So One Cycling comes about like, what is it? Are the races different? Are the races the same? Is it just backroom support for existing races to help them pool resources and kind of increase revenue from things that are already happening?

Johan Bruyneel (9:35)

Yeah, I think, I think the. I mean, listen, any project like this, any initiative, it all comes down to the redistribution of the revenue in the sport. And so I think the main principle is to increase the revenue so that the ones who are the powers now, mainly aso, earns the same or a bit more, and then whatever is on top of it gets divided amongst the other parties, mainly the teams, you know, And I think it's. It's. The idea is to really have the best riders in the best races always racing against each other. It comes down to that, I think. I think cycling is a sport where the calendar is so broad that you could have. I mean, theoretically you can have the three best riders in the. In the sport, not racing once against each other during the whole season if they would choose. So that's. That makes no sense. Right? So I think it's the unify, simplify and make sure that it's. It's a unified format that people can understand because, you know, cycling fans obviously understand the sport. But, you know, to make cycling, to let cycling survive in the climate that we have right now with the competition of a lot of other sports and a lot of other Non sporting distractions for people because at the end of the day it's entertainment also for people. Right. I think we need to go to a formula where it's simplified and unified and that we have a format which is simple, understandable, with always the best championship facing each other.

Spencer Martin (11:22)

It's fine. I know you're not a gravel man yourself and probably a lot of our listeners don't know or follow gravel, but it's as you were talking, you know, there was gravel races that existed, like unbound gravel, big race, the biggest probably. And then Lifetime, which is a company, a like a gym company, basically they own high end gyms, came in, created the lifetime Grand Prix, which is a series of races where there's like a season long points and you get a lot of money if you finish high up. And they kind of came in and plugged in. They own some of the races, but they plugged into existing events. Like I think they bought Unbound, but they don't own like one of them in Wisconsin, which I won't even try to say the name of because it's so hard to pronounce. But it's been going on for a long time and they just kind of plugged into it. And then, you know, if you follow this Grand Prix that the top gravel riders will be at all these races. And whatever you think about gravel, it does kind of present a nice digestible season long narrative and you can just kind of watch it, you know, the top riders will be there. Yeah, what, whatever we think about the cycling calendar, we probably need a little bit more optimization, I would think.

Johan Bruyneel (12:31)

Yeah. Because currently you mentioned gravel, Spencer. I think, I think the difference right now is with, with gravel is that, you know, there's no power party yet, there's nobody who owns the scene yet. I mean, you can today organize the biggest gravel event of the season without being part of the UCI, you know, and that it's. You could do that, right?

Spencer Martin (12:59)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (13:00)

I mean, which I guess is what.

Spencer Martin (13:01)

They did basically with Unbound. Like that's.

Johan Bruyneel (13:03)

Yeah, I mean, totally separate. I think, I think here the difference is with gravel is it's on, it's off road, it's on unpaved roads. So you do not need to deal. I mean, to a lesser extent.

Spencer Martin (13:15)

Well, I think they're all open roads, now that you mention it, with the.

Johan Bruyneel (13:18)

Authorities, you know, traffic control. I mean, it's the problem with cycling. I mean the problem, the problem with cycling is that since you are on open roads, you're on roads, you need the approval of the authorities. The authorities only deal with other authorities, federations, you know, it's. For example, it's easy to organ. I mean, cyclocross, for example, could perfectly be independent of the UCI. You don't need the UCI for cyclocross at all because it's on a closed field. You're your own bus.

Spencer Martin (13:52)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (13:52)

Now you can do whatever you want. Right. Mountain bike, same thing. Right. Road racing is different gravel to, you know, to a certain extent. I mean, I guess they have to crossroads and you need some kind of authority, I mean, police control. But you could basically do that also with, with, I don't know, with local.

Spencer Martin (14:12)

I think that's what a lot of times is what they do. It's volunteers.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (14:14)

Yeah, exactly.

Johan Bruyneel (14:15)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, you know, as we all know, you know, my favorite federation in the world, the UCI, they are, whenever they see something they, with cycling, they jump on it and you know, they, they want to own it. You know, so now they own gravel or they want to own gravel. You know, they own cyclocross, they own mountain bike or, or at least they have their circuit. Right. That doesn't mean that you can organize races outside of the UCI, which, you know, gravel is a perfect example. So. Yeah, but yeah, for one, cycling, you know, it's, it's, it's road cycling. So you have to deal with the UCI. I personally think that the Saudis are probably not that worried about the UCI. They're more worried about ASO because they have such a monopoly on the calendar. But as I said, it's going to come to a point where they force those parties to the table. And I think I said it in another podcast, they will push and push and push until somebody bends over and says, okay, where do I sign?

Spencer Martin (15:32)

Yeah, which, which actually could often be the right decision. But I can't remember. I was talking to someone who knows a lot about cycling and was poo pooing the idea that it could ever be optimized, that it is what it is. You can't turn it into a business that makes sense for someone like the Saudis or Liberty Media, anybody that would want to be involved. But you've been to the Tour de Francio on, there's definitely room for it. If you went to like every major world sporting event and then went to the Tour de France, you'd say this is the least commodified. And in some ways that's like charming and nice, but even just think about a mountaintop finish. It's like, so you just, I'LL just go up there and then it's like. Yeah, it's going to take you hours to leave and you can't buy any food or drink the entire time.

Johan Bruyneel (16:16)

It's.

Spencer Martin (16:17)

I know people bristle at it, but there are ways to.

Johan Bruyneel (16:20)

Oh yeah. I mean, Spencer, it exists already. I mean, just for, you know. Go to the Tour of Flanders.

Spencer Martin (16:25)

Yeah, exactly.

Johan Bruyneel (16:26)

Go to the Tour of Flanders. You know, Walter Van den Haute, who is the, the CEO of Flanders Classics, owner of all these races, has, you know, disturbed the, the system a few years ago. You know, and it was also. It was all. It could not be done, you know, because initially, I mean, it was always the Tour of Flanders was. You know, the last two climbs were the Mur of Gerasbergen and the Bosberg and they finished in Merbe Ninova traditionally. And Walter said, okay, we're going to change this. We're going to do local laps in the, in the final around Odenard, we have three times the. The Quant. Two times the. The. What's the last climb again? I mean, the Paterburg. The.

Spencer Martin (17:09)

I can't believe I know that.

Johan Bruyneel (17:10)

I, I, I. That that's, that's a sin. That's a sin. Actually.

Spencer Martin (17:13)

Well, they did change the, I guess they changed the route.

Johan Bruyneel (17:15)

But the last climb was always. I mean it's not. I mean, okay, so two, three times Watermon, two times Potterberg. You know, the, the, the in that loop of those last three loops been there's one bigger one and then two smaller ones. That's how you can make a business out of cycling and the mule of gas back. And it was, it was a travesty, you know, in Belgium. Oh, you know, you cannot do this. The mu. The mood is not anymore in the Tour of Flanders. Nobody cares. And nobody cares cares because it's, it's so much better now. Yeah, initially I would also say Wouter, what the hell is he doing? You know, I mean, and he had the guts to push forward and it's amazing what he did with this. So it can be done, you know. And I think Tour de Flanders is the example of how cycling can be run as a profitable business. I mean, obviously Tour de France is also a profitable business. But Tour de Flanders back in the days was free for everybody. And, and it's still free. Whatever you want to go, except on those places where you have. You can't go and if you want to go, you have to pay. And it's amazing. It's sold out. I mean, as soon as the Tour of Flanders Finishes. It's sold out for the year after. It's crazy.

Spencer Martin (18:28)

Yeah, they are great. I think Thomas Vanden Spiegel.

Johan Bruyneel (18:32)

Yeah. He's the CEO of, CEO of Flanders. I mean Walter is the owner, founder of Flanders Classics, but Thomas is the one who's running it.

Spencer Martin (18:43)

Yeah, I'm gonna see him tomorrow. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring this up to him.

Johan Bruyneel (18:46)

Well, you will not miss him because he, yeah, you. He's so ex basketball player.

Spencer Martin (18:50)

Huge. Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (18:52)

He's probably has one of the biggest bike frames known in cycling and I.

Spencer Martin (18:59)

Does he have to have that custom made? Oh, yeah, I would imagine.

Johan Bruyneel (19:03)

Yeah. Yeah. And ask Thomas if he has built his Eddy Marks frame already.

Spencer Martin (19:09)

All right.

Johan Bruyneel (19:10)

Actually, I think he did actually because I saw an Eddy Mark, a huge Eddy Marks frame on, I don't know, one of those vintage pages. And I sent it to him and he said, okay, I want this. So he bought the frame. He bought the frame and then had it built. One of the biggest Eddy Marks frames ever made. He owns it in the Motorola colors.

Spencer Martin (19:36)

That's cool. I'd never met the guy and he. My son is like practicing his post ups. He's like for Ray's five years old, but he's practicing like posting up. And he was doing it in the driveway but before he crossed the finish line. And then Thomas sent me a direct message saying to not let him become like Julian Alphilipe. Celebrating too early and losing races because of it. But were we. I can't remember if this is a private conversation or on the podcast, but I was saying, well, why does ASO care at all about the Tour de France? Like who it'd be like the Masters, they don't care about anybody. Like they're not part of the pga. They're just doing their own thing. And you were saying there's potentially a complication with the road closures in the French government if you're not sanctioned by the UCI.

Johan Bruyneel (20:21)

Yeah, I mean that's, yeah, us usually that's the way it works. But I mean, listen, ASO has the power. They, they could. ASO could perfectly function without the UCI is. I mean, the UCI would probably say, okay, you know what I mean, everybody who participates in the Tour de France will be banned. That's not going to happen. I mean, everybody's going to go to the Tour de France. If today, if today you let you, you, you have riders and, and teams. You, you have two choices. Either you side with UCI or you side with ASO. 99% of the. Of everybody's going to side with ASO.

Spencer Martin (21:04)

Because imagine this conversation, you go to your sponsors, you say, so you guys are giving us 20 million euros a year. We're not going to do the Tour de France because we need to do all. We need to do the Tour of Guangxi. What if the UCI bans us from that?

Johan Bruyneel (21:18)

You know, we're not going to do the Tour. We're not going to do paper carried. Robert. We're not going to lie. Baston, Liege. We're not going to do the Dauphine, we're not going to do Paris, but we'll do the World Championships, which, by the way, we're not going to wear your jersey. Exactly.

Spencer Martin (21:33)

Okay, so, well, Guangxi World Championships and Tour de Suisse somehow, which is shrinking by the day.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (21:40)

Do you see this?

Spencer Martin (21:41)

It's five stages now.

Johan Bruyneel (21:42)

Yeah. They put it down to five stages. Yeah. I don't understand why.

Spencer Martin (21:48)

Well, they're an independent race, I believe one of the rare.

Johan Bruyneel (21:53)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (21:54)

They're becoming fewer and fewer and I guess it shows you how you're getting squeezed if you're not part of one of the three big race organizers.

Johan Bruyneel (22:00)

Did you see this?

Spencer Martin (22:02)

I feel like David Leverman.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (22:03)

You seen this?

Spencer Martin (22:04)

You've seen this, Johan. But David La Partian, great friend of this podcast, said UCI president said that he tried to implement a budget cap in professional cycling and the teams voted against it. I don't know if I'll read his quote. We considered implementing a budget cap for all the teams and the teams didn't accept it. I was surprised that it was mostly the smaller teams that refused. I think it's wrong. I think they're wrong because it seems necessary to level the playing field. That seems like a correct statement. But why would the smaller teams reject a budget cap? And is. Did this really happen?

Johan Bruyneel (22:41)

We don't know. We don't know how. I will investigate and I'll find out what the situation is. Team's position is on. I mean, not supposed to talk to them because, you know, I'm banned. I'm forbidden.

Spencer Martin (22:56)

I don't. Yeah. It's like you meet someone at a 7 11, you can't have a conversation with them.

Johan Bruyneel (23:02)

That's. My good friend David doesn't want me to talk to team owners or team managers, but I'll talk to them and I'll find out. Yeah, I mean, the budget cap. I don't know if cycling's ready for this, you know, if it's. I mean, listen, this is not a sport which is thriving and have to you know that sponsors are overflowing the sport. You know, every.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (23:30)

These people.

Johan Bruyneel (23:31)

I mean, this team disappearing once again this year. Two teams, you know, we have, we have Arkea disappearing, no sponsor. We have Inter Marche disappearing. You know, no sponsor or no extra sponsor in financial trouble.

Spencer Martin (23:44)

Probably Toadile Energies next year.

Johan Bruyneel (23:46)

Total Energies, while Total Energies has changed towards ineos. But. So I don't think that cycling right now is, is, Is wealthy enough to, to implement a budget cap. Because it's true. Right now I think that there's two or three teams that have amazing budgets and other teams are struggling. But I think in the long run, if you look at this over 10, 15 years, it's going to, you know, increase the level of sponsor. I mean, like right now, if you're, if you're, if you're a team and you have 25 million, you are nobody. Right? If you, if you go 10 years ago, 10, 15 years ago, you. 25 million, you were the king.

Spencer Martin (24:31)

Well, I guess nobody. We should qualify that. You're either nobody or you're very specific. Yeah. Uno X, very specific. Alpecin. Yeah. You can't compete across the portfolio with.

Johan Bruyneel (24:44)

That amount of money. So I think it's what usually happens, you know, I mean, it's a trend that's ongoing. I mean, it's the same with the salaries of the writers. There's been riders who have been, you know, have been paid a lot of money, two or three guys. But, you know, now there's probably 20 guys who are, who have huge salaries, whereas five years ago there's maybe three or four. So I think it's. Cycling right now, in my opinion, is financially not ready and not abundant enough financially to increase the salary cap.

Spencer Martin (25:27)

Yeah, I do kind of agree.

Johan Bruyneel (25:29)

Implement the salary cap. Sorry.

Spencer Martin (25:32)

Yeah. And then La Partien, we should say his fix. The legal framework for this would be difficult.

Johan Bruyneel (25:38)

By the way, La Partie is a socialist. You know, he's, I mean, he's a camouflage socialist. You know, he's a capitalist himself, but he wants socialism amongst his, you know, the people he rules about. So well. He.

Spencer Martin (25:51)

Well, speaking of socialism, I actually think this is a good idea. In a lot of sports, he's saying with the budget cap, if you exceed the limit, you pay a tax. It's not a hard cap. This is. The US has two types of caps for sports teams. Like the NFL is a hard cap and it is like completely socialist. You share all your revenue with all the teams, but other sports in the US it's a little bit softer and if you exceed the cap, you pay double. So if you're over 100 million in salary, if you go to 105, you pay 5 to Tate Pagachar. Just picking a random writer and then you pay double. So you pay another five to the teams that have not exceed exceeded the cap. So then you have the richer teams subsidizing the poorer teams who are staying under the cap. That's probably what they would try to do. But as you say, I just, it does not feel. Maybe I need to sit down and write a dissertation on this. It does not feel firm enough at the base to start putting in a budget cap.

Johan Bruyneel (26:50)

No.

Spencer Martin (26:50)

If that makes sense.

Johan Bruyneel (26:51)

Yeah. No.

Spencer Martin (26:53)

Well, let's take a quick ad break and then we will. We will get back to a few other topics, everybody.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (27:00)

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Spencer Martin (27:01)

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Spencer Martin (28:18)

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Spencer Martin (29:23)

Johan, we are back.

Johan Bruyneel (29:24)

Spencer. Spencer, before we go into the other topics, we forgot the event.

Spencer Martin (29:29)

Event of the week.

Johan Bruyneel (29:30)

The event of the week. If not, I mean, the battle. If not the year, the. Yeah, let's say the event of the off season. Our Strava battle. I have taken advantage of you being overseas.

Spencer Martin (29:49)

You would think being in my orca would help me, but I didn't ride at all.

Johan Bruyneel (29:52)

There is short and, you know, so. So I have just checked this morning, and we'll put the picture up here. Gabriel can put it up. But I am now eight kilometers ahead of you. Spencer Martin, 10,000, 785 kilometers. Johan Bernhill, yours truly, 10,793 kilometers. So I'm pretty proud of that. I mean, it's actually unbelievable. So we have almost the exact amount of elevation. 119,482 meters for you. 119,869 meters for me. You have ridden faster than me. A lot faster. You did, yeah. 50 hours less than me. 50 hours. But I have a question for you, Spencer. I see here I have 136 days of training, and you have 408 activities. What's up with that? 408?

Spencer Martin (30:52)

Always riding, baby. Well, this is actually a good community project. So I just do a lot of. I'll ride with my son in the morning to his school.

Johan Bruyneel (31:01)

Okay.

Spencer Martin (31:02)

So I ride there and back in.

Johan Bruyneel (31:03)

That's included. Okay, so your school runs are included.

Spencer Martin (31:07)

And I tried for a while. I was doing something where I would put the garment on, I would ride to school, ride home, and then I would pause the garment, turn it off, I would turn it back on and go on a ride and try to, like, batch it all together. But then I was getting corrupted Files. I think if you try to like, let it sit idle for too long, it introduces too many variables. You'll corrupt a file. You'll lose that ride. So I've started to split them up more like. I rode. I had a meeting last night and I rode from. From Shoreditch to like Covent Garden. And I was on a city bike. And I. I did include that because I needed those six miles, Johan.

Johan Bruyneel (31:45)

Okay?

Spencer Martin (31:46)

So you can't close the gap too much.

Johan Bruyneel (31:47)

You knew I was coming. You knew I was coming. Anyways, it's tight. It's tight. Spencer. I'm going to depend a lot of the. From the, you know, on the weather. It depends. I mean, it's getting. It's getting rainy here in Madrid. But. But anyways, we're, we're. We're. It's. It's a fun. It's a fun little, little bike.

Spencer Martin (32:06)

I gotta get a Boris bike on the way home today. I've gotta get those miles even if it's raining.

Johan Bruyneel (32:11)

You need to rise. You need to ride 8km to catch up with me.

Spencer Martin (32:15)

What's funny is it Will. We're not trying to do this and it probably will come down to like some crazy small amount of kilometers.

Johan Bruyneel (32:23)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (32:23)

And it happens almost every year. It's really weird, actually.

Johan Bruyneel (32:26)

Yeah, well, we were. Listen, for me, Spencer, the most important is whatever. I mean, this battle is just a joke. You know, it's just. But for me, it's, you know, I'm just. I just set my, My, my side on 12,000 kilometers in the year. A thousand kilometers a month. So I'm happy. I'm on track. And you will get there too. You also get your 12,000.

Spencer Martin (32:48)

It keeps us riding. That's what's important.

Johan Bruyneel (32:50)

Exactly. Exactly.

Spencer Martin (32:51)

And I am cheating a little bit too, because when you ride on Zwift, you can do group rides and you're get. It's like perfect, you know, it would be like if you were on a group ride in perfect conditions so you can roll along at like 25, 26 miles an hour. Less of an effort than you could probably have.

Johan Bruyneel (33:11)

Maximum three Zwift rides in the whole year. Isn't. You know, maybe I'm. Yeah, maybe we do Wednesdays. I did a few of those. Have we started already with we do Wednesdays.

Spencer Martin (33:23)

We'll have to. Let's. Well, let me get some information on that. We'll get back to people. Let's punt that one. But before we get to questions, couple other topics for you. So we saw last week we did not talk about it because it happened as we were recording. Premier Tech left Israel. Premier Tech as a, as a sponsor. I'm going to say, frankly, that shocked me because.

Johan Bruyneel (33:45)

With immediate effect, yes.

Spencer Martin (33:48)

Which I guess that means they don't have to pay the last few months of the deal. I would love to see that contract. And why now? They said it was untenable. They said their goals were to support Canadian cycling. My kind of, my pet theory is that the G lawsuit cannot be helping because if they want to support Canadian cycling and then they're helping fund a 30 million pound or 30 million euro lawsuit against the best Canadian cyclists, maybe they're not so happy about that, but I was shocked because I thought the team's going to rebrand. It's going to be called Premier Tech. Yeah, they get their own team, essentially, but that's not how it worked out. I mean, do you have any insight into why that happened?

Johan Bruyneel (34:28)

You know, I, I don't, I don't. I was, I mean, I'm not going to say surprised because, you know, they had already manifested their, you know, doubts them and factor, by the way, I think during the Tour of Spain, they were vocal, you know, about that the team needed to rebrand and otherwise they would, they would stop supporting the team. So as far as I know, the, the team has been registered for the moment under the holding name Cycling Academy. And it looks like it's gonna be up to Silva and Adams to, to write the check. And now a bigger check, I think.

Spencer Martin (35:11)

A bigger check and he can't brand it the way he wants to, which.

Johan Bruyneel (35:15)

Yeah, well, you know, I don't know. I'd like to know exactly what the, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't know what the reason is for him sponsoring the sponsor or paying for the team. I mean, a part of the fact that he is himself in his, I don't know his age, but mid-60s, late-60s, probably. I don't know. He's. Apparently, he's an incredible good cyclist. He's world champion, Gran Fondo, I think. And I saw that he was second in the world championships on the track a few months ago, last month maybe. And so, you know, he's, he's a very, very avid cyclist himself. So, you know, he wants to have a cycling team. He has deep pockets. Okay, fine. The thing is, I personally think that the team is safe for next year. He's going to fund the team. How, how much further does he want to do that is the question, you know, I mean, is 2728 and beyond still on the table. And I think the problem now, unfortunately, is that any other new company or new sponsor who will want to associate them with the team because even if it's not branded Israel anymore, that identity is there. And it takes a while for an identity that has been in place for number of years, what, 10 years maybe now, to fade away. Right. I think the only possibility is that if it's companies that are within the close circle of Sylvain Adams, which I'm sure he has plenty of those. You know, I'm still curious to see what factor will do the bike brand because they were also vocal.

Spencer Martin (37:11)

Very vocal.

Johan Bruyneel (37:12)

Yeah. So I would not be surprised to see them following the footsteps of Premier Tech. I mean, I hope for the team and the riders that that's not happening, but I'm not so sure about that.

Spencer Martin (37:28)

The thing that stuck out to me about factor in their statement, they explicitly said this is not a moral or ethical issue for us, it's a business issue. Like this is hurting our business, which tells you they're not probably not going to sit on their hands. So since that happened, I'm kind of glad we didn't talk about it because since that happened and I was confused. It's like, well, Premier Tech, they want to be involved in cycling. What are they going to do? And then we, we're talking about Alpus and Deconic potential potentially had budget shortfalls. It's why they've been turning the roster over this off season so much. And then we hear rumors from La Gazzetta della Sport, which is often correct about this.

Johan Bruyneel (38:03)

Who did, who was it at the. Was. Was it Ciro or whatever it is?

Spencer Martin (38:09)

Ciro Scandamilio.

Johan Bruyneel (38:11)

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's to be taken with a grain of salt, I would say, but I would personally, I mean, what do you think?

Spencer Martin (38:23)

I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense. So I don't know if we said it, that the rumor is that Premier Tech is going to join Alpus and Decoin as a, as a partner and you can have three. I didn't know this until I talked to Hansgro, the company, and I was like, oh, the rumor is Red Bull's coming on. And their statement was like, Hansgrove will continue to be a title sponsor. And I was like, so who's getting booted? I didn't realize you could have three title sponsors and a name. So there's room there. I think it makes a lot of sense for Premier Tech to join them.

Johan Bruyneel (38:53)

Yeah, yeah, No, I think I Mean, listen, if the Rotofts have proven that their team is run, you know, it's a tight operation, but at the end of the day they, they have, they produce results. Right. Which company does not want to be associated with Matthew Vanderpool? Yeah, exactly. Right. I had heard that the Koenig was stepping up and that they would stay on board. But that would obviously mean. But not necessarily. I mean, if Premier Tech would get on board, I think the Koenink would go into a less prominent role. But yeah, I mean, I think that would make sense. It's typical, you know, I mean, like, I think Premier Tech, whoever's in charge there of the, you know, the advertising company who's dealing with Premier Tech, their phone must have been red hot as soon as they made that announcement. I mean, cycling was just on this. Okay. Yeah, we're looking for sponsor.

Spencer Martin (40:00)

Yeah, yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (40:01)

Which is, which is, which shows you the vulnerability of the sport. You know, like everybody is always desperate for another sponsor.

Spencer Martin (40:11)

Well, did you see this? I didn't read it because I don't read Danish and my translation wasn't working. Bianna Reese said Visma short of funds, which we kind of forget, but two years ago they almost went under as a team.

Johan Bruyneel (40:22)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's the same thing. It's one of the biggest teams. But there are obviously. Listen, they've invested heavily in Jonas and in Walt and. Which makes sense. You know, I think it's the right thing to do. The same thing happens in, in opposing. They've invested heavily in Van der Poel and Jasper Philipsen. You know, but, you know, a lot of guys have left Visma also. If you look, you know, like Olaf Coyote, Tish Benott, you know, these, I mean, guys who are really very, very valuable for the team go to teams who have, who offer them big contracts. I mean, huge contracts that, you know, a team like Visma is not able to pay and so you have to let. I mean, it's happened all the time, you know, I mean, it usually happens in the fall of their career. Like Tish Benoot is already, you know, he's a veteran writer and so it makes sense, you know, like one last contract, three years, big check. You know what? Hey, I, you know, I applaud you and you know, just take, take them, take the contract because we can't match.

Spencer Martin (41:33)

It, you know, and they have Matthew Brennan, so.

Johan Bruyneel (41:36)

Yeah, exactly.

Spencer Martin (41:37)

If you have a Brennan, do you need a koi? Probably not. Yeah. I mean, I was doing some breakdown, Johan. And the most valuable writer of the Year, last year. And this is just in terms of points scored on their team, like, as a percentage of the entire team's points, was Oscar Onley, which I was surprised by. And then Matthew Brennan was like, without Brennan and Coy, Visma would have, like, really struggled to get the amount of wins that they normally get.

Johan Bruyneel (42:06)

Like, he's on picnic.

Spencer Martin (42:09)

Yeah, yeah, he was on Picnic. And so Oscar only was first. I was just sitting at the table there, like, he's the most valuable rider in professional cycling to their team. But behind that, like, I just. This is the ranking of World Tour wins for every writer. Matthew Brennan was 10th last year.

Johan Bruyneel (42:27)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (42:27)

And that he was tied with Jonas Vinaard. And then those are. And then Olav Koi. So it's. Coy had the most World Tour wins on Bisma. He was seventh overall. Vindegaard and Brennan both had four. So, like, Matthew Brennan and Coy were like, very, very important for Visma's.

Johan Bruyneel (42:45)

Yeah. Win.

Spencer Martin (42:46)

Win ability. And then now they're losing Koi. So it's actually. It's a dicier situation than you would expect for a team that good.

Johan Bruyneel (42:53)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Spencer Martin (42:54)

And so we heard, you know, we're talking about Visma.

Johan Bruyneel (42:59)

We.

Spencer Martin (42:59)

I think last week we were talking about the triple. Could anyone do the triple? And I don't know if you want. There was a documentary Visma did before the Tour and Jonas is at camp and he's like, I really want to target this Year d'. Italia. I was like, that's kind of a funny decision, but I guess he was joking. And they all start laughing. So this makes me take it with a grain of salt. But Jonas Vinegaard has said he's maybe thinking about doing the Gird Italia Tour de France double the Tom Dumoulin, as we call it. And do you think this is a. A good idea? Do you think it's. He can compete in both and do you think it's going to happen?

Johan Bruyneel (43:33)

Well, I mean, from. From his point of view, I think it makes a lot of sense. You know, he. He wants to win the three Grand Tours. He's won the Tour. He's won the Tour twice. He's won the Vuelta. Now he wants to win the Giro. I think it makes. It makes a lot of sense. A combination. I mean, and then we have to. Of course, we don't know what's happening in his mind and whatever, because deep down, I think right now, I think Jonas is probably thinking, well, if today stays at this level, I can't Tour. Right. So let's look for something else. I just read, actually, while we were talking in the. In the. In the pre. In the preview pre show that Visma does not agree with that idea of him going to the Giro, that they think it will compromise his chances at the Tour, which I think is right.

Spencer Martin (44:33)

Well, I. Shouldn't the question not be, can he win the Tour if he does a zero, but can he finish second of the Tour if he does the Giro?

Johan Bruyneel (44:40)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (44:40)

Because he's not going to beat Taday.

Johan Bruyneel (44:42)

My answer is yes, he can win the Giro and finish second. That's what.

Spencer Martin (44:46)

Because he had. Just has to be good enough in case Tad has a problem.

Johan Bruyneel (44:49)

Exactly.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (44:49)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (44:50)

I think he can. I mean, if Tom Dumont can do it, he can do it. Yeah, he probably. We don't know the zero route, do we? No, we don't.

Johan Bruyneel (44:58)

It's. Well, no, it's not announced yet.

Spencer Martin (45:01)

It's always like, leaks so much that you never quite know when it's announced and when it's not.

Johan Bruyneel (45:05)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, when was it. Was it. Was it last? Was it last year? Not this last year where they, like.

Spencer Martin (45:12)

Never got it out because they didn't.

Johan Bruyneel (45:14)

Know until two months before the race if it was going to start in Italy or in Albania. No.

Spencer Martin (45:20)

Yeah, I've heard.

Johan Bruyneel (45:21)

Was that. Was that last year?

Spencer Martin (45:22)

That was last year. Yeah. They didn't know. And I've heard rumors. Not rumors. I've heard from riders where on. In the first week of the zero, you don't know your hotels for the third week. Wow.

Johan Bruyneel (45:32)

And that has changed. That has changed. But. But yeah, listen, it's nothing compared to organization like the Tour de France, you know, where everything's set in stone already.

Spencer Martin (45:43)

Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (45:44)

Almost a year before.

Spencer Martin (45:47)

So I. I mean, I think he should do it. I think. I think everyone has to start making contingency plans, like, just recognize that we're in the era of today, in. In plan accordingly.

Johan Bruyneel (45:58)

Yeah, I think. I think I. I think. What? What? You know, I think it's a good idea to be ready in case something happens, but already have your homework made. In this case, having won a big race before, and Jonas knows also that means if he wants to win another grand, if he wants to win the Giro, it's now. It's now. Because, I mean, from what I've been reading it, del Toro's focusing on the Giro, for example. Yeah. If he gets a bit better, if he, you know, it still increases his. His level, then it's also not going to be easier. Not going to become easier. For Jonas. Because I think Jonas is. We've seen the top level of Jonas already. What is he now, 28? 29?

Spencer Martin (46:48)

He's 28. Going on 29.

Johan Bruyneel (46:50)

Yeah. Okay. So obviously, I mean, he's still. He's not old, but.

Spencer Martin (46:53)

Well, he might be. Hold on a second.

Johan Bruyneel (46:55)

This is his top level.

Spencer Martin (46:57)

Yeah, right. He'll be 29 next season. But you know this better than anyone, having been a director of so many Grand Tour guys, like, once the switch. Once the light switch goes out, like, they don't win anymore.

Johan Bruyneel (47:10)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (47:10)

You know, it's like they can win as much as they want, it seems like. And then it's gone. It's like.

Johan Bruyneel (47:17)

It happens. Yeah.

Spencer Martin (47:18)

So I think. Yeah, you gotta.

Johan Bruyneel (47:20)

I think I. I'm. I'm. I'm in favor of Jon. I mean, for himself, for his career.

Spencer Martin (47:26)

Listen.

Johan Bruyneel (47:27)

I mean, he's won the Tour two times. Of course, the Tour de France is the biggest event, and if you win it, you're the king of cycling. But if you've won all three, there's not that many guys who won all three. Bogachia, for example, hasn't won all three yet.

Spencer Martin (47:42)

Nope. How many people have won all three?

Johan Bruyneel (47:44)

Do you know? Off the top, Mikael Inderijn never won all three, for example. Right.

Spencer Martin (47:50)

I mean, it's very rare. Fighter, someone. Erwan. To get us into our questions, Erwin says, if Pagachar won three in all year, and I guess this goes for anybody, how does that change their legacy? I think if Fogacher won three in all year, you'd have to start talking about if you do. Especially if you do three in all year, plus a world title. That's best of all times.

Johan Bruyneel (48:15)

Yeah, we're still. We're still there with Best of all times, you know, I mean, he is on his way. Right.

Spencer Martin (48:23)

But you bring up a good point that he's not actually won all three in his career.

Johan Bruyneel (48:28)

He hasn't won all three.

Spencer Martin (48:29)

That's a good place to start, probably.

Johan Bruyneel (48:32)

So. Okay. It's not as simple as showing up. You know, you need to be prepared. But you know, this today, Pogachar, if he says, okay, I'm doing the Vuelta, it's very likely he's going to win it. Right. I mean, if he doesn't win it, whatever he has accomplished already is amazing. I just want to take the opportunity to contradict my fellow Belgian, the great Roger de Vlamink, who gave an interview in Plasta News, I think, and he said that. I mean, it's not the first time Roger says things that are really not very accurate. But you know, he said, yeah, well, Bolacher doesn't even. What is it? He doesn't come to the heels of Eddie Merckx or something?

Spencer Martin (49:24)

Yeah, he's like, he. If the blah's quote was like, if I was there, he wouldn't have. He wouldn't be able to drop me.

Johan Bruyneel (49:29)

Well, listen, that's another. Okay, this one thing is that. So there's two things. The blaming says Bogachar doesn't even reach the heels or the ankles of Eddy Marx, which is absolutely not true. He is getting up there, you know, especially considering cycling nowadays and the competition and, you know, the, the level of a lot of other riders. And then, yeah, I mean, Roger said also, yeah, if I was 22 now, he wasn't being. He was not, not going to be able to drop me. I mean, Roger de Vlaeming, Listen, Roger de Vlaeminck, childhood hero of mine, great. I mean, amazing writer, very unlucky to be in the era of Eddie Merkx, but, you know, won four times. Paris. Well, he won all. I mean, he won Baston, Liege. He won. I think he won all the monuments, actually. He won Milan, San Remo, he won Flanders, he won Rube four times. He won Lombardy for sure. And what's. And what's the other five? Yeah, he won all five, you know, won a lot of other races. Was a cyclocross ride, was world champion. Cyclocross, by the way, was, you know, one. I think, if I'm not mistaken, he won Tyreno Adriatic, was seven times. Amazing champion. Right, Amazing champion. But to say that Bogachar would not drop him when he was now 22 years old. I was thinking about this on my ride yesterday. I said, you know what I mean? I have a lot of admiration for Roger de Vlaming, but Roger de Vlaming has never won a Grand Tour.

Spencer Martin (51:08)

I know. That's what I was thinking of Roger D. You got dropped in your time.

Johan Bruyneel (51:12)

If I'm not mistaken. If I'm not mistaken, has never been on the podium of a Grand Tour, if I'm not mistaken.

Spencer Martin (51:19)

I don't think so. Do you know how many Tour friends.

Johan Bruyneel (51:21)

Stages of the Giro? But I don't think so. I think there was one, one year where he was going to be going for the gc and there was a teammate of him, Belgian guy, Johan the Munch, who, Who was going also for gc. And I think the moon was a bit better because the Monk ultimately ended up winning the Giro. I don't know if it was that Giro, but I do remember reading when I was very young that the vlaming couldn't handle the fact that the moon was better and he went home. But I don't think the vlog. I'm sure he never won a Grand Tour and he's ever been on the podium.

Spencer Martin (52:07)

4Th of the Giro.

Johan Bruyneel (52:08)

75. Roger is, you know, he's been a great champion, but his interviews lately are a bit sad, I think. You know, he's also criticizing Vanderpool, you know. Yeah, no, he can't. He can't. Time draw. He can't climb. Roger, you can't. You couldn't climb either. I mean, you. I mean, you have to be able to climb when you're fort in the Giro. But, you know, he's never been on the podium of ground. I mean, I've been on a podium of a ground tour.

Spencer Martin (52:41)

That is. That's a good point, Roger. No, no, no.

Johan Bruyneel (52:45)

Obviously not. Obviously not. But no, it's. It's. I'm a bit sad to see, you know, these. These interviews because he. Listen, he does the interview with the, you know, the best intention. But, you know, there's a few of those quotes that are really stupid and. And then they get blown up as usual. Right. So lots of respect, amazing respect for Roger D. V. But what you say about Pogachar and Eddy Merckx is not true. And what he says about him would not be dropped from Pugachar when he was 22, in my opinion, is also not true. I'll leave it at that.

Spencer Martin (53:25)

It's very easy to say someone couldn't drop you. I remember when Taylor Finney was coming up, I was like, that guy can't drop me. No way. No way. And then Johan, I wrote with Taylor Finney. Do you want to guess what happened?

Johan Bruyneel (53:34)

He dropped you.

Spencer Martin (53:34)

He dropped me. But it's easy to say that they can't. That's the easy part. So, one question, one other question before we. We get going, before I get kicked out of this office. So this is from Chad in Pennsylvania. This. I almost didn't read this because it's a bit of a bummer, but I'm curious to see what you say. So it's. What do you think is the realistic best case scenario for Mato Jorgensen in the year ahead? There was a decent amount of excitement around him going into 2025. He obviously had a solid start to the season.

Johan Bruyneel (54:03)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (54:04)

With his win at Perry Niece. But things seem to fizzle from there. I know he dealt with illness, loved his fight at the Tour de France with that final stage performance. That was by the way, I went back and watched that. I for good camp and arts and Jorgensen were on that stage. Is his stock pointing up or down for 20, 26 and beyond? Can he eventually challenge for a Grand Tour podium? Thank you and love the show.

Johan Bruyneel (54:24)

Yeah, I, I think Matteo Jorgensen, I mean, I don't think, I don't think we can judge him on this season because I don't know what, what kind of illness, but there was some, definitely something wrong, especially at the Tour de France. Yeah, Matteo Jurgensen was not at his expected level at Tour. So I think, you know, races like Paris and Roman D and Dauphine and stuff like that, Matteo Jorgensen definitely is able to win them. I mean he's won twice Padinis already, which is, you know, it's a big stage race but it's in the spring so you can't really, you know, you can't compare it to Dauphine. But he was already second in Dauphine I think what, two years ago, three years ago maybe.

Spencer Martin (55:11)

Was that like the Derek G year? Yeah, it was Roglich JORGENSEN G. Yeah. 20, 24. Yeah.

Johan Bruyneel (55:17)

So, you know, I mean he, that's, that's within reach and I think a podium in a Grand Tour is in reach, but it's, it's zero and Vuelta in my opinion. Yeah, well, and, and, and you know, then I think the problem you material has is that, you know, is on Visma they have Jonas who remains a Tour de France candidate winner and you're obviously going to be on that team in the Tour. They want to send their best team. So if, if a podium, I think a podium would be possible for Matteo Jorgensen in the Tour. I mean, but it would need to be because of circumstances, you know, breakaway, somebody failing, Jonas probably getting sick, has to abandon, gets his own choice on chance and can then ride to the podium. I think quality wise he does have the qualities to, to be on the podium in, in the Tour de France if whatever happens with one of the favorites.

Spencer Martin (56:26)

It's almost like he's too important to the team though, because he's always on that Tour team and he doesn't get the target the other Grand Tours.

Johan Bruyneel (56:33)

Yeah, yeah, but you know what I mean, listen, at the end of the day he's also probably getting well paid for it, you know.

Spencer Martin (56:38)

Yeah. And he loves, forget that he loves his job. It's also fun to be on a very good team, I would imagine.

Johan Bruyneel (56:45)

It is. Yeah.

Spencer Martin (56:46)

I think you were talking about the old Flanders course. I think he could have won Flanders on the old course. I don't think he can win on the new one, unfortunately.

Johan Bruyneel (56:53)

Well, it depends who participates.

Spencer Martin (56:56)

Probably some pretty good riders, I assume, but got. Well, it would have to be a year where. Well, if Bogota and Vanderpoel aren't there. Actually, it's kind of, you know, this.

Johan Bruyneel (57:06)

Course is definitely, you know, it's for sure the strongest riders. I mean, whoever is strong and has a good team, they're going to be in the final and there is going to be one of those guys who will win. You know, I think, I mean, the last.

Spencer Martin (57:23)

It's hard to get out ahead of the race too.

Johan Bruyneel (57:26)

Well, you know, the last surprise winner, I think on. On that. On that new course is probably betion. You know, betio was. I mean, he. He was. I mean, he was super strong that.

Spencer Martin (57:40)

Day, but he did drop everybody in the hardest part, I guess, right?

Johan Bruyneel (57:43)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was super strong. What happened to that guy?

Spencer Martin (57:48)

Yeah, I don't know what happened. I think. I don't want to speculate, but he. Well, I don't. You know what's weird about Betty? All he is like, I don't know, we should do like a deep dive on that because remember, there was a year he didn't race and he targeted the Olympics and he was in the front group. It was Tokyo, I think, and he like, crank cramped up.

Johan Bruyneel (58:07)

Yeah.

Spencer Martin (58:07)

Going. You know, he has these like moments where he flashes that greatness, but it doesn't seem like him put it all together for a season. But great chatting to you, Johan. Do you have anything else to add before we take off?

Johan Bruyneel (58:18)

Well, say hey hi to some of my friends at Ruler and some of my not friends. They. Hi too. Yeah. Enjoy it over there. Speak.

Spencer Martin (58:29)

All right, thanks so much. Bye.

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