What's Going On With Israel-Premier Tech's Transformation to NSN Pro Cycling? | THEMOVE+

Summary

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THEMOVE Podcast Summary: Israel-Premier Tech’s Transformation to NSN Pro Cycling (Nov 21, 2025)

Host: Spencer Martin (subbing, Lance not present)
Guest Analyst: Johan Bruyneel

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers in-depth analysis of the recent and controversial transformation of the Israel-Premier Tech cycling team into NSN Pro Cycling, set for the 2026 season. Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel untangle the complicated web of ownership, funding, and politics behind the switch—including the continued involvement of Sylvan Adams, key sponsor departures, team mechanics, and the broader business and political context.

The conversation also branches into:

• Insights on Derek Gee’s unresolved exit and lawsuit
• The role of bike sponsors Factor and Scott
• The Vuelta a España’s controversial route/host city debacle tied to the team
• Analysis of Grand Tour contenders’ schedules
• Deep dive into Tadej Pogačar’s Tour de France performance numbers and the relevance of VO2 Max, with a side discussion on Greg LeMond’s famed physiological metrics

The tone is frank, lightly irreverent, and explanatory—sometimes wry or skeptical.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The NSN Pro Cycling Transition: Sponsorship or Total Sale?

• Announcement Shock & Uncertainty: News breaks that Israel-Premier Tech is rebranding to NSN Pro Cycling, with a new joint venture involving Stoneweg (a Swiss investment platform) and nsn (an events promoter).

• Did Sylvan Adams Actually Sell the Team?

  • Johan suspects Adams still plays a central (and financial) role despite the official narrative:

    “I have no evidence, but my intuition says this is obviously Sylvan Adams using his network of contacts to keep the team going…at least for 2026, the main financial backer will remain the pockets of Sylvan Adams.” — Johan (05:03)

  • Adams appears to be publicly stepping back due to mounting political pressure over his Israeli ties, but Johan doubts his continued financial commitment without public involvement.

• Cycling’s Broken Business Model

  • Both hosts emphasize that running a cycling team is financially loss-making:

    “The business model of cycling right now is definitely not a good investment at all. Only if you want to lose money.” — Johan (00:00, repeated at 10:24)

2. Stoneweg and NSN: Strategic Sponsors or Shell Companies?

• Stoneweg’s Involvement: Linked since at least 2023, with speculation that this is more Adams’ networking than external buy-in.
• Using Cycling Teams for Business Perks
  • Corporations use team sponsorship for marketing write-offs and schmoozing VIP clients, not profit.

3. Derek Gee Situation: Lawsuit and Implications

• Gee’s Exit and Ongoing Lawsuit

  • The team’s restructuring likely frees Gee to negotiate out of his contract and join Ineos, though legal avenues remain in play.

    “This situation is in favor of Derek G. making the move and leave the team.” — Johan (12:41)

  • Confusion remains on whether the paying agent and license have truly changed hands.

• Cultural Role of the Team Owner

  • Bruyneel relays insider comments that Adams viewed himself as the team’s central ‘cyclist’—highlighting the idiosyncratic leadership style that may soon fade.

4. Bike Sponsor Shakeup: Factor Out, Scott In

• Financial Realities of Sponsorship
  • Factor bikes departs and Scott replaces them; Factor unlikely to resurface in the World Tour due to cost.
  • Factor’s shift to George Hincapie’s lower-level team is seen as much more financially practical.

5. Vuelta a España Controversy: Politics and Hosting

• Gran Canaria Backing Out
  • The planned Grand Tour finale in the Canary Islands is in jeopardy due to objections linked to the newly-rebranded team’s “previous” connections to Israel.
  • Both hosts are skeptical, positing it’s an excuse to back out of a €6.5 million commitment.

    “That was a strange statement, Spencer. It makes no sense...I think it's a very stupid, weak reason.” — Johan (17:27)

  • Practical relief for riders: bypassing a logistically nightmarish trip to the islands at the end of a Grand Tour.

6. Remco, the 2026 Grand Tours, and Rivals

• Remco Evenepoel’s Scheduling Dilemma
  • Will Soudal-Quick Step (Red Bull Team in 2026) pit Remco against Pogačar at the Tour, or hedge bets with the Giro d’Italia? The field is increasingly stacked regardless, especially at the Giro.
• Assessing Remco’s Capabilities
  • Johan contends Remco can beat everyone except Pogačar and Vingegaard and may still have room to improve in a better-organized team environment.

    “There's two guys that we can safely say Remko cannot beat. It's Jonas and Tadej. Everybody else, for me…he can [beat them].” — Johan (24:13)

7. Tadej Pogačar’s Insane Numbers: Data Analysis

• Review of New Scientific Study
  • A just-published study (Journal of Science and Cycling) estimated Pogačar’s Tour de France 2024/25 numbers, including 6.9 w/kg for 38 minutes (Plato de Belles), and a possible VO2 Max in the high 90s—remarkable even for a pro cyclist.

    “That's 82 VO2 max for that effort. That is a huge watt per kilo number for 39, 38 minutes.” — Spencer (32:48)

  • Both hosts note that this consistent, otherworldly performance level across an entire season is a good indicator of clean racing, given the difficulty in maintaining such form artificially.

Standout Quotes on Physiology

• “He attacks and then rides tempo.” — Johan on Pogačar’s relentless riding style (31:25)

• “He's a freak of nature, you know.” — Johan on Pogačar (39:24)

8. VO2 Max Debate: Greg LeMond’s Mythologized Numbers

• Johan shares a little-known anecdote, reading from a real VO2 Max test of LeMond (from the off-season after his hunting accident)—74.7 ml/kg/min, notably lower than LeMond’s claimed “best ever” value:

  “Here I have the VO2 Max test of Greg LeMond…74.7, which is very average.” — Johan (37:18)

• Spencer and Johan use this tangent to caution about how VO2 Max can fluctuate with weight, training, and measurement methods.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 00:00 | “Having a cycling team is not a great investment. You're not making any money…only if you want to lose money.” | Johan Bruyneel | | 05:03 | “At least for 2026, the main financial backer will remain the pockets of Sylvan Adams.” | Johan Bruyneel | | 17:27 | “That was a strange statement, Spencer. It makes no sense…but I think it's a very stupid, weak reason.” (on Vuelta/Canary Islands controversy) | Johan Bruyneel | | 24:13 | “There's two guys that we can safely say Remko cannot beat. It's Jonas and Tadej. Everybody else, for me…he can [beat them].” | Johan Bruyneel | | 32:48 | “That's 82 VO2 max for that effort. That is a huge watt per kilo number for 39, 38 minutes.” | Spencer Martin | | 37:18 | “…the VO2 Max test of Greg LeMond…74.7, which is very average.” | Johan Bruyneel |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:24 — Introduction & main stories rundown
• 04:16 — Deep dive: Israel-Premier Tech's transition to NSN, Adams’ status
• 09:45 — Stoneweg’s real role and Stoneweg as sponsor
• 12:03 — Derek Gee saga & contract dispute implications
• 15:51 — Bike sponsor reshuffling: Factor exits, Scott enters
• 16:21 — Vuelta a España location politics & Gran Canaria exit
• 21:27 — Grand Tour scheduling and Remco Evenepoel’s 2026 options
• 32:38 — Scientific analysis: Pogačar’s power numbers & what it takes to win the Tour
• 35:02 — Greg LeMond’s real VO2 Max, myth vs reality

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Flow and Tone

The dialogue is candid and accessible yet technical—inviting all levels of cycling fans to understand the financial, organizational, and physiological issues at play. Both hosts combine industry insider perspective with skepticism and dry humor, questioning official narratives and offering blurry-the-line hearsay—deliberately acknowledging speculation when evidence is lacking.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This episode explains the bewildering politics and business tactics behind one of pro cycling’s most headline-grabbing offseason changes, lays out how the sausage is made when it comes to team ownership, funding, and sponsor wrangling, and closes with a compelling geek-out on what it really takes, physiologically and organizationally, to win at the top level of the sport. Johan’s inside anecdotes—especially about Greg LeMond—add a human, historic twist.

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You’ll walk away understanding:

• Why cycling teams change names and ‘owners’ so fluidly in sponsor-driven sports.
• How team politics, geopolitics, and business interests collide.
• What truly elite performance numbers look like in modern Grand Tours.
• Why the business of pro cycling is as precarious as its racing.

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Transcript

[Johan Berniel]

Having a cycling team is not a great investment. You're not making any money. And we all, we've all seen the reports of teams that have financial troubles, that have big deficits. So yeah, the business model of cycling right now is definitely not a good investment at all. Only if you want to lose money.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody, welcome back to the move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are going through the biggest stories of the week in professional cycling. The first one being Israel Premier Tech rebranding selling, we're not quite sure, turning into NSN Pro Cycling for the 2026 season as well as what is going on with Derek Chi and that team. Now the sale has gone through. What is going on with Factor leaving Team Scott stepping in and Remco's proposed 2026 schedule. Possible 2026 schedule and what the new data analysis of Tade Pagachar's Tour de France in 2025 tells us about what it takes to compete. First, Johan, let's hear from a few partners for the episode.

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[Spencer Martin]

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[Spencer Martin]

As I said earlier in one of.

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The other ad reads, two long haul flights. But I feel great because I was.

[Spencer Martin]

At least my legs do because I.

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You can support the show by telling them the move sent you. All right, let's get into the show.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, Johan, we're back. So the first let's try to untangle this news. Yesterday we're all minding our own business and then we get blown up with the news that Israel Premier Tech, which said it was going to rebrand has now become NSN Pro Cycling for 2026. The team is described as a joint venture between Stoneweg, a global investment platform based in Geneva, and nsn, which is a kind of an events promoter headed run by a former Spanish soccer star and it's based in Switzerland. The team is. We knew this was going to happen. About a week ago we heard they're going to be based in Switzerland. What exactly is going on here? Did Sylvan Adams sell the team or not?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, you know, I think they announced that there was going to be a rebranding new name, that Silvan Adams was going to step back at least from the headlights. So what I suspect is what happened is officially it says that Silvan Adams has sold the license, right, to this new entity. Listen, I think they've done as good as they could do. You know, it's late in the season to make a major change at the end. I mean first of all, the pressure during the Vuelta, after the Vuelta, Premier Tech pulling out now factor pulling out in the last moment. I think it's the right thing to do. Now I am, I have no evidence, but my intuition says that this is obviously Sylvan Adams who is using his network of contacts to keep the team going. Personally, I have no doubt that at least for 2026, the main financial backer will remain the pockets of Silvan Adams. I think he made those commitments to riders and staff and the program and that for 2026 he is going to finance and fund the team. The question is, if he's not actively or prominently or publicly involved, how long is he going to do that? I think 2026 is okay, but I have doubts that in 27 and beyond he's going to want to pay that amount of money if he's almost not entitled to be in contact with it. I mean, I think it's a bit of a strange one, Spencer. I mean personally, I think yes, there has been this, this pressure with the links to Israel, but if you look at it from, from a business point of view, and we have been critical of Sylvan Adams already in this podcast here, but I think thanks to him, thanks to the individual, a team and many families, 100 plus riders staff have a job, this team exists. And as far as I know, Sylvan Adams hasn't done anything wrong. It was just his links. I mean he's obviously he's. I think he's double, he's double nationality, Israelian, Canadian. Right. And he does have links with the government of Israel. But you Know, if he, if he, if he now steps back publicly, I, I have doubts that he will keep his toy alive because, you know, it's clear that for a guy with, with, with the wealth of Sylvan Adams, having a cycling team and running a cycling team and being involved in a cycling team, it's a little toy. Now will he get tired of his toy? I personally think in the long run, yes. But at least I think the solution right now is as good as it can be.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, well, I guess we should. I think he has called himself an uno. What is an unofficial at large ambassador for Israel, for the nation of Israel. So if you say that and then Israel is under so much public fire, especially in your home market of Europe where you're doing the racing, you're going to run into problems, probably which they did at the Vuelta. Like whether that's right or wrong. I don't think we're here to adjudicate that. But it was becoming an issue and I mean, we should say someone's funding this team with millions of dollars, many millions.

[Johan Berniel]

It is so for 2026, Spencer, it is seven Adams. There is no way around it because, you know, we're at the, almost the end of November now. There's nobody who has all of a sudden say, okay, hey, by the way, you know, or a company that makes sense, that wants to do this for business purposes and say, okay, hey, I have 20, 25 million laying around here. Let me just sponsor cycling team. So I, I have no doubt that financially he's the backer, but. And in the future that's probably going to change.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, in that, that is. I don't know if this, I mean, maybe these partners could, can carry this team, but it doesn't seem like they're big enough companies or they want to spend that much money. The, the thing about Seven Adams, like him or not, is he spends a lot of money on the team, as you say, that employs a cyclists and families and staff members. That's probably good. Johan, was Stoneweg somehow involved in the.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Team before this year?

[Johan Berniel]

In the press release, I mean, I didn't read it attentively, but I think I saw that Stonewag was already linked or involved in the team since 2023. So I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that that's obviously one of the companies that Sylvan Adams is linked to or has contacts inside of the Inside. It's an investment fund, right? Stonewag.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, they call it real investments, real assets, I think is what they specialize in, what. What is real, I guess, is something they could answer for us. Well, listen, but it kind of sounds like real estate.

[Johan Berniel]

If it's an investment team, let me tell you, having a cycling team is not a great investment. You're not making any money. And we all. We've all seen the reports of, you know, teams that have financial troubles that, you know, have big deficits. So, yeah, it's not. The business model of cycling right now is definitely not a good investment at all. Only if you want to lose money.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I talked to someone about this last night who was interested in the sport of. In business or professional cycling, I guess we should say so. Stonewag. We're talking about them right now. We weren't talking about them yesterday or in last week's show. Also, for a firm like that, same thing with EF A lot of times you can use these. You know, if you're ever at a big corporation and you're working there and you have to do an event, it can be hard to come up with something to do. But if you own a professional cycling team, all the spending on that team is, is a marketing expense. You can write that off at the end of the year and then you can use it for, like, VIP access for preferred clients and things like.

[Johan Berniel]

For sure.

[Spencer Martin]

So sure, there, there are ways they could use this strategically, but. So this takes us back to Derek G. Maybe Derek G. Is sponsoring the team. Maybe he's settled with his 30 million euro lawsuit.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think so.

[Spencer Martin]

But Derek G. If you go through that statement that we went through when he announced he was leaving the team, he kind of foretold this.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Do you remember he said something like.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't want to be at this team. Or with the. Basically, he called it like a aesthetic makeover of the team. And I assume this is what he was referring to. So I assume the lawsuit and him leaving is still on the table.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, I think. I think in this case here now, basically opens the door wide open for Derek G. To just be free and leave. If it's true that Silver Adams has sold the license, it's a new paying agent. It's the new.

[Spencer Martin]

Is it a paying agent?

[Johan Berniel]

It was that.

[Spencer Martin]

Is it a new paying agent?

[Johan Berniel]

I think so. I think so.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, if you sell the license, then yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, do we know if he has sold the license? You can ask.

[Johan Berniel]

You can actually sell the paying agent. So, yeah, you can tell the company anyways, I'm pretty sure.

[Spencer Martin]

But you can sell the company without changing the paying agent. Because you can sell the paying agent.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but I think there's a lot of provisions in the rules that kind of say, you know, if your program is not guaranteed, if the identity changes completely. I have never for a moment doubted that. And especially with. With, you know, with these partners leaving, like Premier Tech and Factor, that Derek G. I think Derek G. Is definitely not staying at the team and he's going to ride for ineos. The question is, when will it be official or when will it be officially decided? Whether it's through a settlement or through a court. We don't know that. But I think now this situation is in favor of Derek G. Making the move and leave the team.

[Spencer Martin]

But still, so many questions. This is such fertile ground for questions, because if Sylvan Adams is the one pursuing the lawsuit against Derek G. And Sylvan Adams is not involved, why does Sylvan Adams care where Derek G. Rides? Yeah, but we still don't know the fundamental question if Sylvan Adams has sold the team or not. That's still. Well, that's.

[Johan Berniel]

I think I saw reports. I don't know if that's in the statement or not in the announcement, but I saw somewhere that he sold the license. You know, I think this is, you know, it's. It's great that the team continues. This is going to be a transition year for the team. You know, keep existing and in the meantime trying to rebuild. Because I personally think that Suva is, you know, if he's. I mean, some. Someone said. Someone said to me once who was close to the team, that the most important cyclist of the team Israel, Premier Tech, was Sylvan Adams. You know, he. He's. He's a really good cyclist for his age, you know, World champion Gran Fondo, I think. And so he's a great cyclist. But, you know, he also thought that he was the best cyclist or the most important cyclist of the team. That's now obviously not going to be the case anymore. So I just think he's going to get tired of it and ultimately his financial input will fade out gradually. That's my prediction.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Which does happen. Has happened many times in the past. So you mentioned factor leaving. So factor leaves, Scott comes in, factor, then goes. So are they not represented in the World Tour or.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think so, no. I don't know.

[Ad Read Announcer]

I don't think so.

[Johan Berniel]

Unless there's another team still looking for a bike sponsor. But at this point, no, everybody. Everybody is. Plus, I don't think that Factor, I don't think, factor the brand factor. And the company has the financial strength to be really attractive to a team to change.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it costs a lot of money.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's four, it's three, four, five million plus equipment.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't see that happening.

[Spencer Martin]

And they've gone to. They're now with Modern Adventure Pro Cycling, our friend George and Capi's team, and they're. I don't want to speak out of turn. They're probably not paying 4 million euros to sponsor that team. It's probably a much more financially.

[Johan Berniel]

Or.

[Spencer Martin]

Lesser financial burden for them to sponsor that team, I would assume, than Israel Premier Tech. And so this takes us to the Vuelta, where it all began and then going back. So Gran Canary Canaria. Grand Canary.

[Johan Berniel]

Gran Canaria, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Vuelta was supposed to end in the Canary Islands, I believe, going to multiple islands, Grand Canaria and Tenerife. And they now Gran Canary is saying, well, we're not going to host it if the new branded, the newly branded version of Israel Premier Tech is going to be at the race. This is like, again, opening all these questions up. It's like, well, is it a team that just happened to be owned by Sylvan Adams last year, but is now owned by someone differently and it's not connected to the team? How, how are they making this decision? Also, they're paying 6.5 million euros to the Vuelta to host this finale. But when they made that bid, I believe probably the war in Gaza was going on. Why didn't they have a problem with it then? Why are we just hearing about it now? And they know that if the team is in the World Tour, which it's supposed to be, unless they miss their payment or something for their deposit, then there's nothing the Vuelta can do to block them.

[Ad Read Announcer]

So this kind of, this seems a.

[Spencer Martin]

Little fishy to me.

[Johan Berniel]

That was a strange statement, Spencer. It makes no sense, you know, I mean, it's, it's. Find a reason. But I think it's a very stupid, weak reason. I mean, there's this plus now, you know, Israel is not in the World Tour anymore as a team. So. No, I think it's just, you know, politicians who are trying to make their budgets work and, you know, they're just, you know, I don't know if there's been new elections. I don't know. I don't know what happened if somebody else is, you know, in charge now. But yeah, that excuse, that reason, Spencer, is. Makes no sense to me. I mean, I think you think the Same, you know. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I think that this is an excuse to get out of paying 6.5 million euros to the VTA. And there. Yeah, it's pretty convenient. It also doesn't make a lot of sense. It's like, well, okay, where do you draw the line? Like, if Sylvan Adams isn't involved anymore, maybe he doesn't even own the team or the license. Like, why are you singling this team out?

[Johan Berniel]

Because, you know, who's going to be happy about that? It's the teams and the riders. I mean, you know, at the end of three weeks, logistically, having to take a plane, you know, have all your infrastructure there for three days for. What was it? Three days. The last three days.

[Spencer Martin]

Three days.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're last Grand Tour of the season. Everybody's tired, everybody's physically tired, mentally tired. And if at the end of those three weeks, you know, when basically all is said and done, you have to go for three days to an island, it's far away.

[Spencer Martin]

It's not the Balearic Islands.

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, no, no.

[Spencer Martin]

It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's.

[Johan Berniel]

A pretty, it's a pretty. I mean, it's a European flight, you know, it's two hour flight at least. Yeah, I would guess. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But, but okay, so they're happy. They're not going there, but they can't go to Madrid because there's an F1 race that weekend, I believe.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Also kind of sad for cycling, showing where cycling pecking order. Sorry you're getting kicked out. We got F1 coming over to the house. We can't have our lame friends around. But now they're going to Granada instead if they can't get this over the line. So Sierra Nevada, stage 20, summit finish, probably. But then the stage 21 is going to be in Granada. That's going to be hot.

[Johan Berniel]

It's not going to be hot.

[Spencer Martin]

A cool place. That's.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. Well, we haven't seen, we haven't seen the course of the Vuelta yet. So I'm going to guess they're, they're, you know, already more or less in the south for the end.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, they must be.

[Johan Berniel]

If they're. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Which is not a topic for this podcast, but we can talk about if, if Spain, if they want to keep going to the south of Spain in the Volta, they might have to come up with some solutions, like maybe even adjust the time of day they're racing because it's hot. It's like the United States hot down.

[Johan Berniel]

There in the summertime.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, let's take a quick break, Johan, and then we'll talk about Remco schedule and these Tadipaga numbers. Everybody.

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[Spencer Martin]

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[Spencer Martin]

This isn't really news. This is just a. Basically a function for us to talk about Remco Evanopol. But Remco Evanopol's potential schedule has been like schedule possibilities. It seems like the team wants him, doesn't want him matching up with Pagachar.

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Earlier in the year.

[Spencer Martin]

So they're waiting. Just like. Did you say, didn't you say a few weeks ago Pagacha is going to do Tour down under? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, probably. Because he probably just wants to go on vacation and train in Australia, which I can't blame him. But then Remco might do UAE Tour, and then it becomes a question of, well, do they send both him and Florian Lipowitz to the Tour on the Red Bull team to double pronged attack against Bogacha or. This seems like what Jonas Finnegaard is talking about. Do you kind of hedge your bets a little bit? Do we do the Giro and then we're not as invested in the Tour? If we lose the Tour, great. If something happens to be Gotcha, we'll have enough left in the tank to maybe win the Tour. But the problem is, if everyone starts hedging and going to the Giro, you're going to have a stacked Giro start list. And it's not so easy to win the Giro. If Remcovenepo is there, Jonas Vinagard's there and Isaac Del Toro is going to be there. It seems for sure like Del Toro is going to be there, actually. Interestingly, Joao Mehta, you were saying he's happy at uae. I think it was last week. He just extended until 2028. So apparently he is happy. But let's just, just go along with me here. If Rimco Evanopol goes to the Giro d', Italia, Jonas Finnegard is not there. Isaac del Toro is there. Is that still. Is that a clean path to victory for Remco? There are rumors of a 40 kilometer long time trial.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. But even with that, no, I don't think so, Spencer. I don't think so. It's, you know, there's, there's plenty of other riders. Who knows? Maybe, maybe Roglich also wants to do the, the Giro. I think the coming man is obviously Del Toro. I think as of today, you know, let's not forget, you know, we, okay, we, we have been, you know, having doubts about Remco and his, his climbing capacities and stuff. Let's not forget, you know, he won the Tour of Spain and he was third in the Tour de France behind and Jonas Fingergaard last year not so long ago. Right. I think today if we have to look at all the rivals, I think there's, there's two guys that we can safely say that Remko cannot beat. It's Jonas and today everybody else for me is, is, is, you know, he can, there's a possibility to beat them. It's not like there's somebody dominant on the scene now. It says, okay, you know, if this guy comes, you know, he's, he's gonna, he's gonna win. Primos is, you know, in, in the fall of his career, still strong, but he's obviously not dominant. You know, we'll have to see with, with Del Toro. Right? I mean, normally Del Toro will still improve. Definitely not the same time trial specialist as Remco. So if it's, it's Remco versus versus Del Toro, I think there's a chance. But for sure, I mean, it's this, I'm going to say today, Today, this, you can say Remco cannot beat those two guys, but everybody else, he can challenge them.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So the, but the problem is a 2024 Tour de France, he gets third, good result. I mean, he won the Volta, but that's, that's all the way back in 2022 at this point. So the problem in 2024, Spencer, when.

[Johan Berniel]

Was the last Grand Tour win of Simon Yates before he won this Giro?

[Spencer Martin]

Well, yeah, that was a minute ago. But the thing is, if I, the thing that I cannot figure about Remco having a pole is why does he not win more one week stage races and specifically the Criterium Dudofine? I mean, if the 2024 tour happened now, like if you went back and reran that, the problem is like, is he better than Florian Lipowitz? Is he better than. And Joel Almeida was working for Pagacha. So that, that's what's working for Remco at the Tour because some of the best competition for that podium is not going for the podium because they're working for the guy.

[Johan Berniel]

I think in terms of Remco and I'm going to, you know, put my Belgian hat on here and defend him a little bit. You know, let's not forget 2025 and 2024. He had two huge problems in the spring 2025. He had this crash in training. In the winter he couldn't start racing until very late. And we seemed to forget that he was also one of the victims of the crash in the Basque country together with Jonas and Jay vine and others. Right. He broke collarbone, had some ribs broken and stuff.

[Spencer Martin]

So.

[Johan Berniel]

He still managed to come back and be third in the Tour. So we'll see. Spencer, I think Remco right now in his new team, new environment, I think he can improve, he can make a step forward and we'll see then what his potential is. But I do agree that he should for sure focus on trying to win one or a few of those one week races. You know, Paris, Tyrano, Basque Country, Swiss and so on. Catalonia, he was close in some of them. You know, he was second in Catalunya I think a few years ago. Lost against Roglich.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, Roglich kind of had his number there in Catalonia. He did win Algarve in 2024.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but that's not the same, that's not the same level, you know. But yeah, let's, let's, let's see if now, you know, in the more, let's say sophisticated, programmed approach with Red Bull, if he can, if he can improve. I'm gonna say I think he can improve. Can improve.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Well, he almost like he doesn't. Yes, he needs to improve. He almost, I don't know what happened to the climbing. Like you go to the Tour this year and he's like something was not right. Something was not right. It's a dofine.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but he already, I saw an interview now and he said that he already knew before the Tour that was going to happen. He just didn't feel his, you know, he just, he couldn't say it publicly. He, he wanted to go for stages, but you know, the team wanted him to go for gc and he said, he said deep inside himself he knew that he was not going to be performant for gc.

[Spencer Martin]

But did he shine a light on why he didn't feel good?

[Johan Berniel]

He said, he said if I, if I'm not mistaken, I think I'm just thinking out loud now. I think he said that he.

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Should.

[Johan Berniel]

Have waited longer to start racing, that he, he couldn't build on his base long enough. He started, he started racing, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, his two best races of the season were his two first races. He won Bravan Sepale. His first race.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Beat Von Aert. And then the Amstel was his second race and he was very strong there too. And then after that, you know, he's never really reached the level that we expect from him. And he. He seems to think that he didn't build a strong enough base and started the race too early after the accident with. With the postcard. The. The post. What is it? Postal car? No.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, Postal van, I believe.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, French Francisco Moser thinks he's too heavy, I guess, to climb. I don't know if I totally agree with that. He's not an overly he person and he's has power.

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He's probably.

[Spencer Martin]

And we've seen him climb well.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Right.

[Spencer Martin]

The tour you mentioned 20, 24.

[Johan Berniel]

He's not a climbing specialist, but you know, he tends to. If he gets his. He's a rider that rise tempo on the climbs. Right. And. And tries to lose as little as possible time.

[Spencer Martin]

So.

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, I still think, I still. Listen, if we talk about Remco and you take away those two, it's another. It's a whole other game.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, well. Well, I guess, yeah, in theory we're taking away Vinegar. Maybe he shows up the zero. But the problem is these guys are getting better, like fast. Like Del Toro's coming up. What's Ayusa gonna do now that he's a free man?

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Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Little trek. It's a tough landscape out there.

[Johan Berniel]

It is, it is. Young guys, when you're out, if you're out for one or two seasons that are like on a lower level, it seems like, you know, the train has left the station. You know, you can't, you can't jump on it anymore. Yes.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, speaking of someone who rides tempo and climb as well, Tada Pigacher, he rides just a steady tempo, just happens to be really fast.

[Johan Berniel]

So the problem, the problem with today is that he. He attacks and then rides tempo.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, some of these numbers, as you'll see, is like over 700 watts for 30 seconds.

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Itch.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, it's easy to sit around and say, that's not so hard, but do that and then settle into 450. And now we know we have a better, like, look at those numbers because a Norwegian study, and I want to say the journal, this journal's name correctly, it's in the Journal of Science and Cycling study published, came out and they estimated like Pagachar as they picked a few performances from the Tour in 2024 and 2025. On climbs, they estimated his power and his VO2 Max, which is pretty interesting. I, for this same duration, I have a little. I used to not have a power meter. I couldn't afford a power meter, so I had to create a little algorithm and I'd plug in all the, you know, my weight, my speed, climb, et cetera. So I've been using this little formula when I, you know, watch the Tour, when I watch these races, I just plug in all the information I can get about these riders. And I've been getting averages for Pigachar and Vinegar and Ebena Pole on these climbs during the Tour. I mean, I started to question it, Johan, and on set, people were really asking me like, is that right? And people were riding in like, could he really be doing that? And so it was interesting to see this study come out.

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And a lot of the numbers were very similar.

[Spencer Martin]

Like they had on plateau to buy 2024. This is a 38 minute effort, 453 watts, 6.9 watts per kilo. That's 82 VO2 max for that effort. That is a huge watt per kilo number for 39, 38 minutes. And then Oticom this year, 33 minutes, 6.7 watts per kilo. The time trial the next day, 7 watts per kilo for nearly 20 minutes. I mean, that is really hard to do. That's like an elite company. And then they, I think the headline of the article when it got aggregated was they, I think they estimated his VO2 max in the high 90s. So if we assume above 95 is high, like it's unique, let's say 97, like you're talking. That is un. Like I've never even heard of a cyclist having a VO2 max.

[Johan Berniel]

There was one Scandinavian cyclist who had. I mean, doesn't, doesn't really. Doesn't necessarily mean you're a good cyclist.

[Spencer Martin]

That's a very, that's a very good point. That. Yeah, it does not necessarily mean that.

[Johan Berniel]

But obviously it's, you know, it says a lot about the engine and I don't actually know. I mean, maybe, you know, Spencer, does this actually fluctuate, like when you're in shape and you're not in shape? Well, and how much can it. How much?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I guess it's.

[Johan Berniel]

It, it has. I mean, the better test, VO2 max test you do, if you're in good shape, you're skinnier, you're obviously going to have a better result. Right, yeah.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yes.

[Spencer Martin]

Because when we say the number like 82 for Plato to buy that, you know, that. What does that number mean? Well, that's like your oxygen processing over your weight. So if you do a test in the middle of the off season and you're heavier, you're going to have a lower number because it's dividing by your weight.

[Johan Berniel]

It's like, how much do you think it can differ? Like somebody who has an 85 VO2 max and is out of shape and heavier, how it's supposed to be.

[Spencer Martin]

One of the things that is not as malleable is, let's say, power, where power you can really increase. You know, if you were very overweight, it could increase quite a bit. But it is not the most elastic metric, that's for sure.

[Johan Berniel]

Now, I'm asking Spencer because, I mean, now that you talk about VO2 Max, you know, I mean, and it's funny, I thought about this because today I saw an interview of him, you know, again, banging on cyclists that were post his generation or riders he rode with, and he accused them of doping. My good friend Greg Lamont, you know, he's. He's famous for claiming he has the best VO2 max ever measured in cycling. You know, he says that he's the only clean cyclist of his era. And I knew we were going to talk about Pogachar. So sometimes I ask myself, you know, has anybody actually asked Greg Lamont to prove that he had that VO2 max? Because back in the days, you know, measurement was not so sophisticated. And, you know, and so I've talked about this many years ago with somebody who. And I want to bring up something, you know, so I actually have Spencer, a result of a VO2 max test of Greg Levant, the person. I mean, I think. I mean, I think it was the. The season before he went to adr. It was in the sea in. In the time that he had his hunting accident. So he was obviously not in great shape. He was, I think, overweight, didn't have great season at all. But I know that he was trying to find a team. And there was one French team called Fagor back in the days, who ultimately they ended up signing Stephen Roach instead of Greg Lamont. But Lamont did go for a test. He did a test with the doctor of that team. And guess what? This doctor I met, and here I have the VO2 Max test of Greg Lamont when he was trying out for.

[Spencer Martin]

This is even legal.

[Johan Berniel]

For Fagor, and I'm going to read it. Guess what? VO2 max, which is milliliters per minute per kilo an out of shape Greg LeMond 74.7, which is very average.

[Spencer Martin]

That's definitely not what we were told when we were all growing up. That was all wrong.

[Johan Berniel]

Spencer. Greg LeMond, great athlete, great champion. I mean, amazing. I've raced with him. He was very strong. But there's nobody who has asked him. Okay, you claim to have had the highest VO2 max result ever measured in cycling. Show me the proof. Well, here we go. 74.

[Spencer Martin]

Sometimes what I wonder, what if, what if it was 80 when he was in good shape? That's. That's pretty good for pro 80, 82.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean. You mean. Yeah, I mean it's, it's fine, you know, it's fine. I mean, it's not. It doesn't make you or break you, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I guess I just said it. Pagachar 80. He would need a VO2 max of 82 to did what he. To did what he do what he did on Plato to buy. So of course that's very good. Yeah, you're right. Does it make or break you sometimes? What I wonder about this, Johan. That. So he never.

[Johan Berniel]

71 kilos, which I, which I expect. It's, it's, it's quite. I mean, it's three, four kilos overweight at least, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So something I wonder about is, I think this was, I don't know, maybe this is not the case. I think that Le man, it was like, oh, he tested as a teenager and his VO2 max is really high. Something I wonder about with myself is like, well, I weighed like 130 pounds when I was 17. So yeah, if I went in for a VO2 Max, then it would be off the charts. But then as I got older and gained weight, you know, my kilos are going way up and like something I worry about when they say like so and so is 18 and their watts.

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Per kilo is this number.

[Spencer Martin]

It's like, well, yeah, they're going to gain weight because they're not going to.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Be that size forever.

[Spencer Martin]

And like, as you become an adult, I do think your VO2 max can like effectively go down because you're growing into your body and like the bottom line of that number is increasing.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, but anyway, Polachar is, you know, independently of his VO2 max. I mean, it's, it's. He's a freak of nature, you know. I mean, I think plus also. And here you can see I, I'm. I am pretty sure Spencer. I mean, I'm not a science. I don't have a scientific knowledge enough to, to know this. But if you would measure Pogachar's VO2 max now. And you measure it four years ago, five years ago. Not even close. I think it's a big difference.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. That's interesting. You know, I, I do have to. Speaking of VO2 maxes. Wait. I have to go interview Matthew Riccatello. El Tour de Tucson. But just the parting thought to leave people with. I would love to know how correct this is, but do you remember the stage six of the Dofine? It's like one of our highest rated shows of the summer. Pagacha dropped everybody. It's the climb to come blue. What's the climb called? The Cote de Moncy.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So I have him at this is like just under 22 seconds. Under 20 minutes. I have him at 7.4 watts per kilo for that effort. But that, I mean now we know that like it's at least seven. And if it's seven, there's very few people that can compete with that, which is why he wins so much. So that paper is telling us he wins because he's very good and there's not as many people that are as good as him. He's a genetic freak. Yeah. So. And, and we should say like, it's good that he's that good like all the time. That's a good sign. It's not. It's very hard to, to fake that with nefarious means of keeping that level throughout the whole season, but. Any other thoughts, Johan, before we take off?

[Johan Berniel]

No, I think that's it. So you're at two to Tucson. So you're gonna, you're gonna do the ride tomorrow?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I, I only came down to get a draft for 160k to try to catch you.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

Competition. Yeah, that's what I'm here for.

[Johan Berniel]

I'll go out tomorrow. I'm not going to do 160k, I can tell you that much. But yeah, I'll be. Yeah, you'll gain some. You'll, you'll, you'll gain some kilometers back on me tomorrow.

[Spencer Martin]

Be glued to George's wheel. Just stay right in that draft.

[Johan Berniel]

You can't, you can't.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, there's also like Christian Vanderbilt. It's so like chaotic at the beginning. He's like, oh yeah, I can barely breathe. It's so nerve wracking. It's like. Well, that's not what I want to hear, Christian. That's not good. Well, thanks, Johan. And next week. Thank you.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, thanks.

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