Where Does Simon Yates' Shock Retirement Leave Visma in 2026? | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Where Does Simon Yates' Shock Retirement Leave Visma in 2026?
Host(s): Spencer Martin, Johan Bernal (note: not Lance Armstrong for this episode)
Date: January 9, 2026
Main Theme:
A deep-dive into the seismic impact of Simon Yates’ unexpected retirement on Team Visma’s future, the repercussions for their 2026 strategy (especially Grand Tours and Spring classics), and broader transfer news in pro cycling.

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Episode Overview

This week's THEMOVE+ is defined by shock and uncertainty in the pro cycling world after Simon Yates – defending Giro d’Italia champion – abruptly retires. Hosts Spencer Martin and Johan Bernal dissect what this means for his team (Visma), their Grand Tour strategies, broader transfer market trends, and the emotional/mental toll of cycling. They also touch on Wout van Aert's ankle injury, Lidl-Trek's active transfer spending, and which countries are flourishing (or faltering) in producing Grand Tour contenders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Simon Yates’ Retirement: Reaction and Analysis

[04:00] – [11:36]

• Shock Announcement: Both hosts express genuine surprise and confusion at Yates’ retirement at 33, especially after seeing him actively engaged with Visma at recent training camps and at the Giro route reveal.

  • “Simon Yates was there, then he was gone.” — Spencer Martin [04:00]

• Possible Reasons:

  • Increased difficulty and sacrifices demanded by modern pro cycling.
  • Family considerations and diminishing reward relative to effort.
  • Timing notably awkward; Visma can't replace him with a Grand Tour-caliber leader at this late stage.
  • The retirement seemed to blindside the team itself.

• Historical Perspective:

  • Spencer mentions the rarity of a rider retiring as a defending Grand Tour champion, paralleling it to when Lance Armstrong retired after his 2005 Tour victory.
    • “Do you know the last rider to retire while they're defending Grand Tour champion? ... I was the manager of this rider. ... I was Lance.” — [10:30–10:50]

• Commendation for Yates:

  • Both appreciate that Yates chose not to simply "mail in" his contract year, which would have drained Visma’s resources pointlessly.
    • “He just could have said, ‘ah, whatever, I’m going to get paid through the rest of the year...’ But in that way this is good for the team.” — Spencer Martin [11:05]

2. Implications for Team Visma

[11:36] – [16:39]

• Key Rider Departures:

  • Not only losing Yates but also Tiesj Benoot, Attila Valter, Koen Bouwman, Jan Tratnik, and others to transfers.
  • "It definitely weakens [them]... He was one of their leaders in the Giro, finally won it, then he was a key rider in the Tour..." — Johan Bernal [07:01]

• Transfer Market Strategy:

  • Visma has avoided “big buyout” arms races for star talent, investing instead in development and lesser-known talent (e.g., Matthew Brennan, Anton Schiffer).
    • “Visma’s not been playing this game... the biggest riders they’ve brought in are Utah Brooks from Bora, Matteo Jorgenson from Movistar, Victor Campenaerts from Lotto.” — Spencer Martin [16:07]

• Grand Tour Dilemma:

  • Visma now has to rethink their strategy for the Giro, Tour, and especially the Vuelta, typically planned later and more ad-hoc.
  • Increased opportunity for riders like Matteo Jorgensen and Sep Kuss to step up.
    • "For Jorgensen, this is obviously a great opportunity to be their strong leader in the classics and also, you know, co-leader... in the Tour de France." — Johan Bernal [32:07]

3. Wout van Aert’s Ankle Injury

[16:07] – [22:57]

• Incident:

  • Van Aert, one of Visma’s chief stars, suffered an ankle fracture racing cyclocross. Initial recovery forecast is three months, but both hosts question how straightforward comeback will be for a cyclist in his 30s.

• Impact:

  • Disrupts Van Aert’s Spring campaign (Classics) and leaves Visma’s Northern Classics ambitions in doubt.
  • History of bad luck and repeated comebacks for van Aert, but hosts praise his “mental toughness.”
    • “The mental toughness of a rider like that is incredible... he's gonna bounce back again.” — Johan Bernal [21:01]

• Speculation:

  • Whether Van Aert might scale back cyclocross commitments after this, both agree he likely continues because of his genuine love for the discipline and its culture.

4. The Broader Transfer Market & Roster Building

[31:52] – [36:29]

• Lidl-Trek’s All-In Approach:

  • Aggressively signing big names for Grand Tour leadership (Juan Ayuso, Derek Gee, etc.), contrasting with Visma’s more granular, development-focused roster tweaks.

• Derek Gee’s High-Profile Transfer:

  • From Israel Premier Tech/NSN Cycling to Lidl-Trek in a multi-million Euro deal.
  • Hosts debate Gee’s Grand Tour podium prospects:
    • “He's a candidate to be on the podium of a Grand Tour. Maybe not the Tour de France, but at least the Giro or the Vuelta...but most likely he won’t be.” — Johan Bernal [38:19]
  • Acknowledgement that support for “podium hunting” can come at the cost of stage-win opportunities.

5. Team Funding & The Future of Soudal Quick-Step

[42:54] – [44:11]

• Positive News:
  • Despite speculation after losing Remco Evenepoel, Soudal has extended sponsorship until 2030. Keeps the team's viability assured.
    • “Soudal has officially announced that they renew...until 2030...it gives that team a project for the future.” — Johan Bernal [44:11]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Simon Yates was there, then he was gone. It felt a little bit like McCauley and the detective, Al Pacino detective and Heat... I did not see this coming.” — Spencer Martin [04:00]
• “I think it’s a decision he made together with his family. Personally, I don’t think the team was aware of it until probably a few weeks before he announced it, but it’s definitely a surprise to me.” — Johan Bernal [05:19]
• “If you would ask 90% of the teams, ‘your leader is going to win a Grand Tour and a stage in the Tour de France...’ everybody signs today for this.” — Johan Bernal [13:52]
• “He [Yates] just could have said, ‘Ah whatever, I’m going to get paid through the rest of the year. I’m not going to try that hard.’ But in that way this is good for the team.” — Spencer Martin [11:05]
• “Three months is definitely, I think, realistic. It’s not a serious fracture...Bob Van Aert...the mental toughness of a rider like that is incredible...he’s gonna bounce back again.” — Johan Bernal [16:44, 21:01]
• “Visma’s not been playing this game...the biggest riders they’ve brought in are...not a...and Simon Yates from Jayco. Simon Yates in and he’s out.” — Spencer Martin [16:07]
• “Sometimes, sometimes, when you are in a situation like that and then you just, you know, take it as it comes, sometimes teams overachieve, you know, when the expectations are not extremely high.” — Johan Bernal [31:04]
• “He’s a good rider. A very good rider. Very talented rider. Big engine. I like him [Derek Gee]. But what do you think of this move? It is substantial. This isn’t...what we just talked about with Visma.” — Spencer Martin [36:30]
• “Sudal has officially announced that they renew...until 2030...it gives that team a project for the future.” — Johan Bernal [44:11]

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Fast Facts & Timestamps for Important Segments

• Start Yates Discussion — [04:00]
• Historical Context for Retirement — [10:30]
• Van Aert’s Injury — [16:06]
• Van Aert’s Cross Career Future — [22:57]
• Visma Roster Strategy (Matteo Jorgensen, Matthew Brennan) — [31:04]
• Derek Gee Transfer to Lidl-Trek — [36:21]
• Soudal Quick-Step Future Confirmed — [43:25]
• Country-by-Country Grand Tour Leader Analysis — [45:54 – 52:40]

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Discussion: Nationalities in Grand Tour GC Ranks [45:54]

• The hosts reflect on how few French riders currently make the cut as world-class Grand Tour threats.
• “I was shocked by how few French riders even qualified for this...who's the best current French GC rider?” — Spencer Martin [45:54]
• France’s best hope: Lenny Martinez and Paul Sakesus for the future, with Kevin Vauquelin as the only current top-7 in Tour de France (2025).

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Takeaways for Team Visma (2026 and Beyond)

• Yates’ retirement and Van Aert's injury thrust the team into transition, necessitating internal leadership development and opportunity for previously secondary riders.
• For fans: expect a more ‘by committee’ approach in Grand Tours and spring classics, rather than dominance by a singular champion.
• The transfer market has split: Lidl-Trek and Red Bull invest heavily, while Visma and others are taking higher risk/gambit on development and scouting.
• The episode closes with a look at the broader GC field: UK, Slovenia, Spain are rich in top contenders; France’s traditional pipeline is surprisingly dry.

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Final Thoughts

The episode provides candid, informed perspectives on the ever-shifting landscape of pro cycling, emphasizing the unpredictable human element behind even the best-laid team strategies. Simon Yates’ sudden departure is a reminder of the sport’s volatility and the necessity (and opportunity) for teams to reinvent themselves—often on the fly.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host - Advertisements]

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[Spencer Martin]

We're all living our lives. We're excited for the season. And then we hear news. Simon Yates, 33 years old, winner of the girdle, defending Giro d' Italia champ, is retiring, which was a little shocking to me. I, I met the man in November and then he, you know, we, we were seeing him ride around with his visma team at training camp in December and then he's gone. Everybody. Welcome back to the move plus our first weekly show of the 2026 year. We'll be breaking down. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernal and we are breaking down the big news in pro cycling this week. Simon needs retiring wout Bernard surgery on his ankle dere signing with Little Trek as well as a few listener questions. It looks like Johan, I'm, I'm just back from Maui. It looks like Johan just moved to Maui but he's actually in, in Morocco on a cycling trip. Very, very mysterious. Very cool, Johan. I'm quite jealous, but I'm in Marrakesh.

[Johan Bernal]

Spencer arrived yesterday here for a couple of days cycling with friends. Beautiful place, actually. I mean I've never been but the first impressions are really, really positive and yeah, really, really. Definitely something to explore further in the future.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it looks great and it is, yeah. Marrakesh. I don't know why these Moroccan cities loom large in my imagination. Place I would want to go. I didn't know you could ride there. So that's, that's great to know.

[Johan Bernal]

Definitely can ride. You could do a lot of climbing. You can go to, I mean tomorrow I'm going to visit the place of a friend of mine here. It's 3400 meters altitude and you can actually Write properly on really nice road until there. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow, that's crazy.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, let's take a quick break to hear from today's partner and then we're going to get right into this episode, everybody. This episode is brought to by hu. I've been trying to be one of those people who hit their protein goals every day. And sometimes I'm great. Others, I look up and realize I've just had carbs. That's why I've started using the high protein starter kit from Huell. It's five black edition ready to drinks, plus the black edition chocolate powder. And honestly, it's the first thing that's made it easy for me to stay consistent. And this is how I use that bundle on days I'm running out the door. Or like today where I got to leave early because there's snow all over. It's going to take forever to get the kids to school. I don't have time to have breakfast between that and the recording. So I grab a black edition ready to drink. It's a complete meal. 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no artificial sweeteners, and it actually tastes good. Plus, it's shockingly filling for something I didn't have to prep. I have it right here. The iced coffee flavor is fantastic. Then on days when I have a little bit more time or I want something thicker or colder or a little bit more customizable, I used a black edition protein powder, put it in a smoothie, just shake it with water. Whatever I do, it still hits the protein goal I'm aiming for. Having both the RTD and the powder in my kitchen keeps me from falling off my routine. So get hu's full high protein starter kit online with our code, the move 20 for 20% [e-mail] the move 20 that's h u e l.com themove 20 new customers only. Thank you, Huell, for partnering with our show in supporting it. All right, back into the episode. All right, Johan. So I think the, we'll talk about Wild Bernard and his broken ankle. And it does, it connects to this first story as well. But we'll, we'll get to wow later. We're all living our lives. We're excited for the season. And then we hear news. Simon Yates, 33 years old, winner of the year, defending Jared Italia champion is retiring, which was a little shocking to me. I, I met the man in November and then he, you know, we, we were seeing him ride around with his visma team at training camp in December. And then he's gone. It felt a little bit like McCauley and the detective, Al Pacino detective and Heat, where he hears that Robert Dairo has gone on the lam and he's like, I had a coffee with them 30 minutes ago because I did not see this coming. Simon Yates was there, then he was gone. I, I, the team saves some money because they don't have to pay him for the year. Got not ideal time to retire though, because they can't really replace them with a, like, for like Grand Tour winning caliber rider. What were your thoughts when you heard this?

[Johan Bernal]

I was surprised. I was really surprised, especially because, you know, as you said, you know, training camps, the first training camps have happened already. They making plans. I saw Simon also at the Giro d' Italia route reveal a few weeks.

[Spencer Martin]

Ago, and he said he was excited or hoping to come back. Yeah, yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

But anyways, you know, I, I kind of, I mean, that's all official statements that you make, but I can kind of put myself in his shoes. And then, you know, later on, I saw a quote from his team, actually, I think, saying that Simon made this decision because she finally decided that, you know, that the, the life of a pro cyclist in today's cycling is becoming harder and harder. I'm assuming he has a family and that, you know, the, the, the rewards are not anymore in, in or the potential rewards are not anymore in, in the balance with all the, you know, sacrifices, I can put myself in his situation and understand it. So it's just the timing, you know, the timing. And I think sometimes it, you, it takes something to realize that, that you need to make that decision. Was it the training camp that made him realize this? That, you know, everybody shows up every year fitter and fitter. As a more veteran rider, you tend to take your time a bit more and, and take it a bit easier. And he's, you know, he's entitled and allowed to do that. And then on the other hand, you know, you can also say, well, hey, you know, I, I really stopped at the height of my career. You know, I won a Grand Tour and said, okay, guys, adios. I'm out of here. I think it's a decision he made together with his family. Personally, I don't think the team was aware of it until probably a few weeks before he announced it, but it's definitely a surprise to me. And also it is a huge loss for Visma, as you say. Spencer, you know, he cannot be replaced at this moment. He was one of their leaders in, in the Giro. Finally Won it then. He was a key rider in the Tour. Won a stage in the Tour for Visma, which took off. Huge pressure. Don't know how many stages they won, but off the top of my head, I think they won two stages. It was Simon Yates and Rob Bernard.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I pretty sure that's, that's the stage. No, no.

[Johan Bernal]

So, yeah, it's, it's not, it's not ideal, you know, because they lost some good riders in the off season. They lost Tish Benaut, who's a key rider. I mean, not. He's obviously not Simon Yates in the mountains, but he is a very solid teammate which. Who has his place in every. In any important race that Visma would. Would be doing. You know, they lost Attila Valter, who's a climber. Also. Call of Coy is leaving. Dale Von Bar left. So it definitely weakens Brooks. Yeah, Brooks left. I, I think they let him go because he still had a contract, a year contract.

[Spencer Martin]

Would. Would they have let him go had they known this was happening?

[Johan Bernal]

I think so. I think so. I think with Arthur Brooks, it's probably more a matter of, I mean, this. Other books. Obviously he's, he's. He's a. He's still a talent, you know, he's still young, but I think that he's probably not an easy guy to work with. He's extremely demanding on himself and also demanding on his environment. And you know, the fact that he left Bora, it was not Red Bull yet when he left, I think so. He left Bora while he still had a contract. He moved to his dream team, Visma, and then found out that, you know, probably not my dream team. So I want to leave again. It. It's not great. You know, it doesn't look. It doesn't look great. But anyways, you know, I think makes the choices that he thinks are the best for him. So we'll see how he does it at Movistar. But I think that's. That. That would not have changed that decision, in my opinion, because Arthur Brooks is a writer who, you know, he wants to go for his own chances in secondary races. Although it looks like he's going to be doing the Tour de France in 2026. But yeah, I mean, it's surprise announcement and you know, I think, I think the. You can only, okay, accept it if you're in. In Visma situation and the manager and say, okay, you know what? We just have to, you know, accept the situation and, and build from here. There's not much we can do right now and we just deal with it.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I, it actually makes me. It makes, you know, I sit here on my high horse and tell teams what they should be doing. But this would be hard. If you're a team manager, you're living your life, having a good time. Season's looking good. Oh, wait. One of your best riders, they're not going to be in this. They're not going to be riding the season. That would be pretty disruptive to hear at this point in time. Do you know the. You, you just mentioned going out on top? Do you know the last rider to retire while they're defending Grand Tour champion.

[Johan Bernal]

Bradley Wiggins?

[Spencer Martin]

No, no, no, no. Had just won a Grand Tour because, remember, Bradley raced.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, Bradley. Bradley went on for another year or.

[Spencer Martin]

You were the manager of this writer.

[Johan Bernal]

I was the manager of this writer.

[Spencer Martin]

I was Lance. Lance. Yeah, yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

2005.

[Spencer Martin]

It shows you how rare it is and it also, I. Simon should be commended too, because he easily, let's say he showed up to team camp. It's hard. You're in a hotel, a fine hotel, but maybe you've seen enough of them. You're eating the same little breakfast food. You know, sometimes I, I was wondering, when I was at these camps, I was thinking, what do these guys do from 3pm to when they go to bed? Could be a little boring. You're thinking, maybe there's more to life than this. He easily could have just mailed it in. I, I personally know someone that just mailed in the last year of their deal that recently ended and they were not good at all. He just could have said, ah, whatever, I'm going to get paid through the rest of the year. I'm not going to try that hard. But so, so in that way this is good for the team that they don't spend, let's say, 3 million euros paying him not to if he's not motivated.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, listen, every writer, if that's his decision and that's he has made up his mind, there's nothing you can do about it as team, you know, you can't try to convince him because it's not going to work out. Once it's in his mind, it's game over. It's not going to.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And that's what I mean. You could imagine being these camps and it being. If you're motivated, if, like, if you're Christian, like your son, you know, he would like, love it. It would be all he's thinking about. But if it was me. I might be like. I don't know. There's like a lot else going on in life I'd rather do than this. So if you're in that mindset and Simon Yates is, you know, closer. Close. Ish. To my age, that maybe thought, this isn't great, but I think it's a family decision.

[Johan Bernal]

You know, I mean, it's his wife and. Does he have. He's. I think he have. He has kids. No. Or.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, that's the funny thing about Simon is he's so private. He's not prickly, but he's private. It's actually, I don't know that much about him.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

At all. Let's see.

[Johan Bernal]

I don't.

[Spencer Martin]

He doesn't even have a personal life on his.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Wikipedia page.

[Johan Bernal]

But it's one of the two brothers who has dogs. I know that. I don't know which one of both. I don't know if it's Simon or, or Adam, but, but anyways, it's, it's, it's a decision that I think I can understand it. I can understand it. And it's, you know, you've reached. He knows that he has reached the top of his career. He's not gonna, you know, he won the Vuelta, he won the Giro. There's nothing else that is on there that he can plan for to win. I mean, he can still win something, but it's gonna come to him because of the circumstances, not because he makes an objective. And. And he's going for it. Yeah. You know, I think, I think it's, Listen, it's, it's, it must, it must be a great feeling to say, hey, you know what? I'm leaving on my terms. I've reached. I've gotten everything I thought I could get out of my career and much more. So let's go. That's it.

[Spencer Martin]

And he was coming off. I mean, you look at 20, 2024 was not a fantastic season for him. And then he goes into 20, 25, wins a grand Tour, wins a Tour stage. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's as good as it's going to get. Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

So you think about it. It's, it's, you know, because I saw some criticism on, on social media about somebody say, ah, you know, Simon Yates had a, you know, he didn't have a great year. You know, listen, if you would ask 90% of the teams, you know, and you say, okay, your leader is going to win a, a Grand Tour and a stage in the Tour de France, everybody Signs today for this. Yeah, you know, a Grand Tour, you're going to either win the Vuelta or the Giro. And a stage in the Tour, man, that's like, okay, where do I sign?

[Spencer Martin]

If Julio Ciccone won the Giro in a Tour stage, that would be the best possible season. That's a really good writer.

[Johan Bernal]

I'm going to go further than that, Spencer. If a guy that they. They got on the team and they invested a lot of money and to be the leader of the team in. In this case, for example, Juana, you. So, yeah, goes to Little Track, they pay 10 million euros for him, plus whatever 3 million salary if today he gets presented. Okay, Juan, you're gonna win the Giro or the Vuelta and a stage in the Tour. Okay. He says, I'm gonna say, okay, I'll. I'll do it. Where do I. Where do I sign?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's what Simon Yates did. Kind of under the radar, so.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So.

[Spencer Martin]

So Simon's. I. I gotta say, a personal level. I don't like this one bit because I remember when Simon Yates turned pro, so I don't like seeing people that I remember turning pro retiring. This is upsetting to me. Simon, I need you to keep writing. I want someone like Robert Hessink, who I'm like, wow, I remember you were a team leader when I was a kid and you're still writing.

[Podcast Host - Advertisements]

But.

[Spencer Martin]

So Simon Yates leaves. This leaves Visma in a little bit of a tough spot because Visma, if you have not noticed, has not been playing the game of. You just mentioned it, the big buyouts. So you have Juan, you so going to Little Track, you have Remco going to Red Bull, Derek G. West going to Little Track for a lot of money. These are big buyouts. Visma's not been playing this game like their last. You look at their last few off seasons, the biggest riders they've brought in are Utah, Brooks from Bora, Mateo Jorgensen from Movistar, Victor Campenaert's from Lotto.

[Podcast Host - Advertisements]

And that.

[Spencer Martin]

That's. That's not a. And Simon Yates and Simon Yates from Jayco. Simon Yates in and he's out. Matthew Brennan, they bring up from their development team that ended up being huge, but was not a big signing at the time. So the cupboard is a bit bare, especially when we think about wout Bernard's crash and the broken ankle and what, you know, he's got surgery on his ankle. What. What's the timeline on that recovery? They say three months. Did we really? That doesn't seem easy to me. If you're a cyclist and you have surgery on your lower body and you can't really.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Work on that lower body, that's never great, especially when you're in your 30s.

[Johan Bernal]

Three months is definitely, I think, real realistic. It's. It's not a serious fracture. Yeah. Bob Vanart is going to be. The thing is, of course it's, it's a huge setback for him for the classics, you know, if he can get to the topics, if he can get to it, you know, his call. Preparation is interrupted. I mean, I. Long time ago I was, I was 17 years old. So what is it like 40, 43, 44 years ago I had a triple ankle fracture as a junior that, you know, big freak fracture and I had big surgery and I was racing again. Like two months later I was racing again.

[Spencer Martin]

17 year old, though, is a lot different.

[Johan Bernal]

Fracture technology was not the same as now, I think. I think, you know, it's obviously innocent. It's not good. You know, it's. It's a huge setback. It's bad luck. Walt Von Aert is doomed. You know, just when he started to show improvement and got closer to Matthew and this crash and it initially looked okay and then, man, I mean, to see that and then see, okay, he's fractured his ankle. That's just. I just, I feel for the guy. It's crazy.

[Spencer Martin]

You're right. He looked fantastic in that race. I thought he was going to win that race because he reeled in Vanderpoel, who did. Who also crashed.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And then it looked like a little slide out. Not a big deal. Slight slid out in the snow, broke his ankle. Do you remember the name of the cross race? I don't remember it.

[Johan Bernal]

No. What's it? Zanto? No Zone?

[Spencer Martin]

No, I don't know.

[Johan Bernal]

Zonhoven. Zonhoven. Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

They're either. And then mole. They're always. I feel like they're always in mole for a cross race, though.

[Johan Bernal]

I don't remember now.

[Spencer Martin]

It might not be.

[Johan Bernal]

It was not in Zonoven because. Well, anyways, I don't remember. It was one of those, you know, big races. There was snowing.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, it was Zilver Minocross.

[Johan Bernal]

That's the name of the cross. Where was it?

[Spencer Martin]

That's not a town. I thought that was a town name.

[Johan Bernal]

Cross is the, is the, the cross of the. Of the Silver Lake.

[Spencer Martin]

No, it's in Mall.

[Johan Bernal]

Mall. Okay. Silver Lake is the crossover. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But yeah, tragic because he looked, he looked the best. He's looked In a long time on a cross bike and then is out.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. I mean, listen, this it. You can see different things in it, you know, like, okay, it's again a setback. It's again an accident, an injury which disrupts his spring. And at the same time, I'm gonna see the silver lining is this is again a guarantee that we're gonna see a top bob on arc in Tour de France.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, that would be the. The positive spin on this. You would say. He actually. What's tragic and interesting about Vanart is obviously 2021, 2022, fantastic, unstoppable. Very good. 23. He was very good. I believe he. Did he have a child that year and leave the Tour de France early to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. And then he was great though at the tour. Leaves 24 crashes at Dwarves. Dwarf Landren. I think it was a midweek Classics race. Mateo Jorgensen goes on to win. He crashes. So he's recovering in 2024, pulling himself back into form at the vault. The Espana looks better than I've ever seen him. He's going to win the KOM jersey and sprinters in the same Grand Tour crashes. Hurts his knee. So 2025, he's recovering from this knee injury. Not, you know, off, a little off. His best at the Classics, but still pretty dang good, you know, getting fourth at Flanders, fourth at Roubaix, fourth at Amstel Gold, second at Dwarves. What a. What a comeback. Goes to the Giro, Wins an iconic stage against Isaac del Toro, goes to the Tour, wins an iconic stage against Taday Pagachart, and then he's hurt again. And then 2026 is another code. It's his third comeback season in a row.

[Johan Bernal]

Mental. The mental toughness of a writer like that is, is incredible. You know, I mean, every time you have to bounce back and bounce back and he's gonna bounce back again. I have no doubt about that. It's just, you know, I mean, it's sad. It's sad to see, you know, he's super popular. I mean, Belgium, the guy's unbelievably popular. And, and everybody, everybody feels with, you know, for Walt Bernard and. Yeah, I mean, it's too bad, man. Too bad. It's pure bad luck. Because, you know, I mean, listen, a crash like that, it can happen to anybody, right? It's just super, super unfortunate the way he, you know, he fell over and you could. His ankle was completely bent when, when he, when he hit the. Hit the ground and multiple people crashed.

[Spencer Martin]

At the same spot. Yeah, you're right. It's just terrible luck. And without the crash, let's say the crash doesn't happen. And you had to say, is vanart going to win a monument, a spring monument or not this year? You'd say, I don't know, he's got a chance. Maybe now. I mean, the, the competition level is so high.

[Johan Bernal]

I think also, you know, in on the up, I mean, without that crash, I mean, there, there were chances that, I mean, still not, we still don't know, right. But it looked like he was equal with, with, with, with Matthew Vanderpool. And you know, if you look back at the last two, three years, it's been a while since Walt has been equal with what with, with Matthew Vanderpool. So this could have been a point of inflection in the curve, you know, like, okay, Vanderpool gets, you know, always the upper hand. This could be, it could have been like, you know what we all want, right? To see this extreme tight rival rivalry. And it started to look like it was, you know, the curve was changing a bit. But yeah, now, now we won't know.

[Spencer Martin]

What does this mean for his cross career? Is he ever racing cross again, or does this not affect it?

[Johan Bernal]

I, I, I think yes, I think, yes. I think, you know, if you look at both Walt Van Aert and Matthew van der Poel, the fact that they're doing this, these cyclocrosses, obviously they're limiting it more and more. Mathieu may be a little bit less because his goal is to win for the eight time the world championships. And then rumors are that he probably won't do cross anymore. But I'm sure that both of these guys, they cross because they love it. They love the exercise, they love this sport, they love the atmosphere. They do it for their fans. They don't need to do it for the money, although they get paid, you know, really good money to start, but it's nothing compared to what they make overall during the season with their contracts and their other endorsements. So they do it for the love of the sport. They just love cyclocross, both of them. That's how they started. They started as being pure cyclocross riders who then transformed into great road road cyclists. So, but yeah, I mean, I can see, I could see Walt Van Art say, hey, you know what? This is it. You know, I'm not gonna, I'm, I'm gonna limit the risks now. Then again, you know, if you, if you look at crashes in cyclocross, they're usually without any.

[Spencer Martin]

I know there's not a, it's not a huge incident of a major injuries.

[Johan Bernal]

No, they, they, they crash quite a bit but usually it's, you know, it's at lower speed. It's not on concrete. You know, you can hurt yourself a lot more in, in a crash on the road. Like usually that's where you get hurt. Not in crosses. Crashes in cyclocross.

[Spencer Martin]

What's our friend's name? The. He's Eastern European and he ride. He has all the cameras on his bike. We saw him at the base of.

[Johan Bernal]

Oh yeah, the training guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He. I was watching a video of his last night from the. He was behind the UA team at training camp.

[Johan Bernal]

The guy who stopped it bumped up my tire.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, he gave us a pump when you're in big trouble. But he, he did this video behind the UA team and you're thinking this isn't. This doesn't even look that safe. And that's a training camp and about a controlled as environment as you can get. So you could get hurt I guess anywhere. So maybe this doesn't affect.

[Johan Bernal]

Dangers are everywhere around every corner. You know, I mean if you go out with a team nowadays on the road and you have 10 to 15 riders and you're moving within, you're moving within traffic, you depend on the behavior and the reactions of you know, drivers and other users of the road. So it's, it's. The risk is there constantly.

[Spencer Martin]

So let's take a, let's take a quick break here from. To hear from some partners and then I'm gonna ask you. How does visma. Where do they go from here, everybody? This episode is brought to you by Caldera Lab. One of my goals this year is to stay consistent with the things that actually make me feel better. Maybe start working out a little bit more, a little bit differently. Maybe more weight training, less chasing Johan on the trainer, maybe eating better and. But well, let's be honest, that's not going to happen. But the thing I really want to get serious about and I think I can do is getting serious about my skin care. Low hanging fruit. But I struggle with it normally. But I know that Caldera Labs simple three step routine could finally be the thing that gets me over the edge. There's step one, the clean slate. The cleanser clears dirt, oil, sweat and buildup won't dry out or strip your skin and leaves your face feeling fresh, clean and ready for the day. There's step two, the great their serum The Hero product uses advanced renewal technology. Clinically proven to reduce wrinkles, firm skin and improve elasticity. It absorbs fast and delivers visible results and frankly, it just feel great after using it. And the third step? The Hydro layer. The moisturizer. It's lightweight, non greasy, comes in a nice glass bottle as well, locks in moisture all day and gives a healthier, more energized look. If this sounds appealing to you, these are three simple steps that are just a small habit but have big results. So go to calderalab.com themove and use code the move at checkout for 20 off your first order. That's calderalab.com themOVE and code themove at checkout for 20 off your first Order. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Quince. A New Year, Colder days. This is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver, especially if you live in Western Europe or a large part of the US it is freezing right now, so if you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made the last season after season. Quince brings together premium materials. Thoughtful design, enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp and feel your best all winter season long. Quince has everything you need. Men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and suede outerwear that actually holds up to the daily grind of getting around the city into in the winter, while most importantly still looking good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. Think down jackets, wool coats and Italian leather outerwear that keeps you warm when it's cold. And each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. By cutting out middlemen and traditional markups, Quince delivers the same quality as luxury brands, but at a fraction of the price. The result is classic styles you'll love that hold up year after year. I just got a new I just got some new pieces from Quince, including a new pair of the worn stretch jeans. Because I love them so much that I was wearing them so often, people thought I only had one pair of pants. So I thought I need to dispel this myth. Let me get a pair of slightly different looking worn stretch jeans. And I did. And I'm loving them. I'm wearing them on planes as I travel around and then I land and I look great. I go to the the the desk for the rental car and they're like this guy means business. Check out these jeans. So refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com themove for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Also available. Available in Canada now too. That's Q U I n c e.com themove quince.com themove free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com themove all right, Johan. So Vlad Vanart out for a few months. Simon Yates gone forever. At least in a cycling sense. From Visma. What, what is Visma's strategy for the rest of this year? It seems like I heard a rumor like, oh, Simon Yates is leaving because Jonas is targeting the Giro. It's like, I don't think that is the reason, but. And that's been.

[Johan Bernal]

We.

[Spencer Martin]

We've known that for months. I don't think Simon H just learned about that. So Jonas is probably doing the Giro, doing the Tour. So that, that's two Grand Tours with leaders. The vault. What, what do they do for the Vuelta now? What, what's the Grand Tour strategy here?

[Johan Bernal]

Well, I mean, you know, as we said already many times, no, and nobody, hardly ever, nobody plans for the va. The VA comes to you, you know, and you, you approach it with whatever you have left, both as a writer and as a team, you know, in terms of, okay, what do I have left? Energy wise, motivation wise, how many riders do I have who are fresh? And then, you know, some of the leaders, people have been injured, they had to sit out the Grand Tour or some people have failed their objective and then they want to have another chance at the Vuelta. That's usually how the Vuelta gets penciled in to the program of teams, so it won't be any different. And especially now if Visma, first of all, if they lose certain manpower due to transfers, and then they lose manpower and power due to these, you know, Simon Yates retiring while being injured. They'll have to pick their, their objectives carefully. At this point. They cannot think about the vault at all. They need to think, okay, what can we do? First of all, how are we going to approach the classics if Walt is not 100%? What else do we have left? Benoot and Von Barle are gone. Right?

[Spencer Martin]

So it's, it's like they do, they do have. This could be the answer to every problem. Matthew Brennan at your bre, man, he's so good.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, it's not ideal, but you know, sometimes, sometimes, you know, when you are in a situation like that and then you just, you know, take it as it comes. Sometimes teams overachieve, you know, when the expectations are not extremely high, sometimes they, they obtain things that they were not expecting. This could be. Situation like that. Vervisma who knows? You know, I mean, they're not, in theory, they're not going anywhere. Maybe just to the Giro. If Vineyard goes to the Giro, of course they go as the favorite. All the other races, they're not going to go as favorites. So they can, you know, sit back and, and see what happens and look out for opportunities and, and in many occasions you, you can obtain great success like that.

[Spencer Martin]

And you know who this affects the most. So they, they're at least currently missing their best classics rider. Missing a Grand Tour winner. Mato Jorgensen checks both of those boxes.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So big season for Mato.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, people will step up. People will step up to the plate, you know, and for, for Jurgensen, this is obviously a great opportunity to be, you know, their strong leader in the classics and also, you know, co leader or because of Visma will go at least with Jonas to the Tour as the leader, but co leader in, in the Tour de France. So great opportunity for Matteo.

[Spencer Martin]

They also have the, they have the 20, 23 Vuelta Espana champion on the roster. Sepkus.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So it's not like they don't have, they don't have nothing, but they've, they've definitely sat out of the infl. What we believe is inflated valuation game for the last few years. Kind of an interesting transfer season for them. They have a writer from Pulte visit Malta and VF group coming in. So like they've definitely seen something there. And then this one really stuck out.

[Johan Bernal]

Two good writers. Two good riders. Yeah. Who can, you know, obviously I think both of them are going to do the Giro, I think. Right. So hey, two, two strong recruits for.

[Spencer Martin]

For Jonas and here's they got Louis Baret. They got no problems because they got Beret. But a really interesting one to me that no, like no one's going to notice this happened. Anton Schiffer, 26 year old from basically an amateur team. Bike Aid comes in. You're thinking, well, okay, Anton Schiffer. What are you talking about? Why is that important? Well, he gets third at the German National Championships. These are the teams he finishes amongst. Winner, Jorg Zimmerman, Inter Marche. Second, J. Coloulo Rider third, Schiffer on basically an amateur team. Fourth, Little Check. Fifth, Tudor. Sixth cousin. Seventh, UAE Inter Marche. Red Bull. Red Bull. That's the top 10. That's a very good company to be in. And Anton schiffer has a 6.5, 6.5 watts per kilo threshold power. It's not, not that normal. Right.

[Johan Bernal]

It's a number. It's A number. We'll see how it translates into races. You know, I've seen many with great lab tests, like, as for test results and it's to be seen, you know, it's to be seen. But hey, it's, it's a, it's a gamble that Visma made. They can't lose with something like that.

[Spencer Martin]

Right, Exactly. It's what we talked about last week. Like, why are teams letting these riders sit out there and they're, they can use something.

[Johan Bernal]

It works out great. If it doesn't work out eight, no big deal.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I, I mean they're very smart. They're smart. They're not a stupid team.

[Johan Bernal]

No, no. There's obviously something they know and they've seen to sign this writer that's, you know, it's not just because of, you know, he has a, a certain connection there and he's been pushed towards the team. They've, they've seen something that they believe it.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. And it's kind of a no brainer if someone's sitting out there and it's not like he's a, it's not like he's a random guy. Like he's getting third at German National Road Race Championship. So we know he can ride a bike and if he has that FTP, you might as well try on him. I mean no one would have said, you know, what's a slam dunk? Yonas Jonas Fingergaard, that guy's going to win the Tour. And they saw something, they signed him and he wins the Tour. So I, I kind of like their trans. I kind of like it and I think they'll probably be okay, but it's, it's not, it's not. It's the total opposite of Lidl Trek or Red Bull. I'm interested to see how it plays out. Speaking of Lidl Trek, Derek G. West, you said this when I was sitting in my hotel room in Brussels. It must have been mid December. You said Derek G's going to Little Trek. Kind of made sense because I saw him at the training camp. Seemed like the writing was on the wall. So a deal has been made with this former team I Israel Premier Tech, now in SN Cycling. We assume some million, some million plus euro transfer fee has been paid to settle the ongoing litigation to buy him out of his contract. He's now going to L track, probably making, let's just say between 1.5 million euros and 2 million a year. 2 million euros a year?

[Johan Bernal]

That's my estimate also.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, big raise from the 5 to €600,000 a year he was making last year.

[Johan Bernal]

He's a.

[Spencer Martin]

He's a good rider. A very good rider. Very talented rider. Big engine. I like him. But what. What do you think of this move? It is substantial. This isn't. This is the opposite of what we just talked about with Visma. You know, this is a big investment with stakes.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's. Listen, it adds to the depth of the. Of little track. Right. I mean, it's another quality rider they add to the roster. They want to be performing in all Grand Tours. I think logically, their G will go to the zero, in my opinion. The question is, you know, can he repeat his fourth place? Obviously, the. The objective would be to do better. Question is, is he able to do that? You know, I would think that at least mentally, he didn't have the best off season and the best approach towards the season, but now, finally, it's a big relief. So there's still time ahead to prepare. I don't know what I have to think. Spencer, you know him better than I do. I mean, he's a great rider. He's also a rider who, if I'm not mistaken, came relatively late to road cycling, because if I'm not mistaken, he was. He. I do. I do remember seeing there, if I think it was Derek G. To see him at World cup track.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he's a track rider.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. So, you know, it's quite the switch. And, you know, you never know where the limit of those guys is. Right. You know, he. He was top 10 in the Tour. Right. Two years ago, I think two years.

[Spencer Martin]

Ago, he was ninth at the Tour. Yep.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. And then he was fourth at the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Bernal]

So, you know, I don't know if I said this here on the podcast or somewhere else. You know, it. It is a. It's a difficult, complicated situation to have a writer like him, because this is a candidate to be on the podium of a Grand Tour. Maybe not the Tour de France, but at least the Giro or the Vuelta. But. And. And for that reason, you have to kind of build and dedicate a big part of the team to that goal. But then at the same time, you know, if you. If you would look at it realistically, he could be on the podium, but most likely he won't be. He could be fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth. You know, and that's. That's. That is. I think it's a complicated situation for a team because you need to dedicate resources to that rider. He's gonna. If he finishes fourth or Fifth, that's not the goal because nobody remembers who was fourth or fifth. It's only the podium that counts. And then at the same time, you know, there are riders and opportunities for riders who you need to dedicate to that rider that are lost for stage widths. So I, I also know, you know, it's not easy. I mean, there's not that many teams who have a guy who will be on the podium of a Grand Tour. You know, if you look at the whole professional peloton, there's maximum going to be nine riders on the podiums and most likely some right guys will repeat and be on podiums of.

[Spencer Martin]

So it's probably seven people a year.

[Johan Bernal]

Six or seven writers. So is Derek G. One of those? I'd say no. You know, I mean, I probably name six names or seven names that, that are higher ranked in on my list. And don't get me wrong, I think Derek Geek can do it, but he hasn't done it yet. And for now, the fourth in the Giro is his best performance. But still, I mean, it's to be seen. You know, listen, it's, I think it's a rider who can improve tremendously, especially with, now with the optimized environment of little track around him compared to, you know, the professional environment. But I think it's fair to say that the Team Israel Premier Tech, now nsn is not, doesn't have the same level of professional sophistication than, than little track and other top teams. So I think in that aspect, I think Derek G. Can improve. We'll see. We'll see. I just think that it's, it's, it's a move that makes sense in the sense that little track is step by step, you know, strengthening their, their, their big, the big range of talent that they, they, they, they have and that they, they acquire.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone should do what makes them happy. And if he was not happy at the old team, he should have left. But the, the odd thing about it is, do you know who, what team he would fit in perfectly at nsn? Like, who would be pumped to finish fourth at the zero? That team. That's the strangest part of this to me. But maybe it just didn't work out behind the scenes. Yeah, the positive case would be that Doge, you know who this reminds, actually kind of reminds me a little bit of a guy called Garrett Thomas. You know, tracky comes over, you're like, yeah, I don't know, like, is he really a GC rider? And they just. Same thing. With Bradley Wiggins, they just get on this curve and the, the sky's the limit. And that both those guys won the Tour de France, you know, Ryder Hazard, all would not have jumped off. You go back to 2008, 2009. Is that guy a Grand Tour winner? You'd say, I don't think so. And then he goes on to win the zero to tell you so those would be the cases that you'd look at for why you would make this move. But having said that, I think he would fit perfectly at NSN Cycling. That's one thing I don't understand about agree.

[Johan Bernal]

But hey, you know what I mean. The, the infrastructure of the team he's at now and the resources they have is just much better. I think, I think he said personally know that this is like as close as he can imagine to the gold standard of the, the infrastructure of a team. So listen, he. The biggest, the biggest advantage and the biggest reason for his move is, you know, he's now at it. He's already super happy now and you need a happy rider to perform.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's a good point. You know, and you look at a guy like Tom Schqueens and you know, I'm going thinking back 10 years ago, I never would have imagined Tom Squeen just where he is now.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And you know, he's clearly at that team maximizing his potential. He has hit the ceiling of what he can achieve and the team probably played a role in that. So you look at that, you think maybe I should go to that team. Another team that we, we've been discussing, is this team going to be around? What's the, what's the future of this team? Sudal quick step. They lose Remco. They kind of go. They're doubling down on the classes again, trying to find their old identity. But their title sponsor, Sudal has committed to the team until 2030. So they probably are not going away anytime soon.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, no, no, listen, that's great news. I didn't, I did not expect that either. I read it. Was it this morning or yesterday? I saw it yesterday. Yeah. So Sudal has officially announced that they renew with Sudok Quickstep until 2030. And it's great news. No, it's. So it's not a five years, right? 26, 27, 28, 29. So it's the next five years they're going to be title sponsor. That's amazing. You know, it gives that team, you know, a project for the future and they can keep recruiting and you know, to. To now after Remco left, there's obviously a lot of room for change. It's still a top team. I think they were the fourth best team in the rankings right. This past season.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, they're very good at getting points. I'm going to have Tim earlier. That helps. But I was talking to someone just a few months ago about potentially buying their world title or their World tour license. So this is. This puts that to bed. Like they're not folding.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, I mean, maybe still. I mean you could have a sponsor and still, you know, try to sell the license. It's still possible. But if you sell the license and you have.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, you know, two more years.

[Johan Bernal]

So obviously if they would sell it would be next year though. That's that you sell two years of world to license but five years of sponsorship, you can still do that. I mean, as if you are the owner now of the team. If. I think it's Bacala. No, it's just Bacala who's now the main owner. Yeah, I mean he's always been the main owner, but yeah, I mean I was happy to see that. I mean it's. That. That's great news. That's great news.

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[Spencer Martin]

And so I think that's it for news. Few questions. We'll try to make these brief.

[Johan Bernal]

One question, Spencer, because.

[Spencer Martin]

One question. Running short on time. One question, Johan. So I. Here's a question for you from me. I was, I created a. I, I put everybody's GC results over the last four years into a spreadsheet and then wrote a formula to come up with the best Grand Tour writers. Surprise, surprise. Today Picachar is the best you can read. This is all my newsletter beyond the peloton, if you want to dive into it. The thing I was shocked by is how few French and there was qualifying criteria. Like you had to finish. You had to win a Grand Tour in the last four years. Finish in the top five of the Tour the last three years or be on the podium the last two years. I was shocked by how few French writers even qualified for this. And if you had to say off the top of your head, who is the best current French GC writer?

[Johan Bernal]

Who.

[Spencer Martin]

Who would you say?

[Johan Bernal]

The best current French D.C. writer for 2026. Current, current. Oh, I mean, it's not David Godou, is it?

[Spencer Martin]

He didn't even. Yeah, he didn't even qualify after that. Welta. He might. He's in the sin bin for a while.

[Johan Bernal]

The best. No, I mean Vocalin has been. What was he, seven or eight in the Tour?

[Spencer Martin]

He was seventh at the Tour this year.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And has done well in other stage races.

[Johan Bernal]

He's the only one who I've performed, I think, in the last few years. It's been a while since Thibaut Pinot has retired now. Tibo Pino.

[Spencer Martin]

No, I mean, yeah, no, no, because he wasn't. It's been a while since he was.

[Johan Bernal]

The last four years. The last four years, you said? No.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, it took into account their results from the last four years, but they have to be actively racing in 2020 to qualify.

[Johan Bernal]

It must be vocal.

[Spencer Martin]

It's vocal.

[Johan Bernal]

On. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And he was the only one that wow. Even hit the criteria.

[Johan Bernal]

That's not. That's not good for their. For the. For the future of franchise. I mean, you know, we all. They all have high hopes for Paul. Sakes us, I think that's obviously the big talent, the big hope, but we can't say because he hasn't done a Grand Tour yet.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, yeah, because if someone on the street ran up to you and said, hey, Johan, who's the best French gc? Who's the best Grand Tour rider from France? You'd probably say Paul Seychelles.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, he has a little hitch.

[Spencer Martin]

He's never raced a Grand Tour.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, I mean, listen, the potential is there, obviously there. But yeah, we need to see. We don't know right now what. I mean, what the progression margin is still, of course, has he reached close to his limit? I mean, it's already pretty good. I mean, even if this remains his level, he's going to be an amazing rider. Right?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

It takes a lot more to win a Grand Tour or to be on the podium of a Grand Tour, but if there's one rider who has it in him, it's. It's him.

[Spencer Martin]

And there has been a good. It used to be a little fuzzier the data, but usually the people that do really well at the Tour de l'. Avenir. Now do well in Grand Tours. So you, you can kind of extrapolate. But it is possible. Some people just aren't good Grand Tour riders. Like they're great in a one week stage race and they're not great.

[Johan Bernal]

I Mean, Grand Tours HS1. 2025, 2024. Who won to Tasmania?

[Spencer Martin]

Del Toro.

[Johan Bernal]

Del Toro. That's pretty good.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, he won 2023.

[Johan Bernal]

Okay. Did it.

[Spencer Martin]

Was it Pablo?

[Johan Bernal]

Pablo? No, no, it was not. It was, it was Joe Blackmore.

[Spencer Martin]

Joe Blackmore, very good writer.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, but. But hasn't performed in Grand Tours yet. And then. Oh no. I mean he's been top 10 in the Vuelta.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. You know, but anyway, who won it in 2021? This guy's pretty, pretty good.

[Johan Bernal]

GC Rider 2021. Tell me.

[Spencer Martin]

Tobias Holland Johansson. Okay, so. But it's not a slam dunk, superstar. Here's a question for you.

[Johan Bernal]

Here's a question for you. Do you, do you know who won the Tour de la in 1990?

[Spencer Martin]

It's got to be you, right?

[Johan Bernal]

I did.

[Spencer Martin]

Johan Vernil.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

This is actually crazy. I'm looking at the results right now. Lauren Jalibur, third place. Wow.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Geez.

[Spencer Martin]

Beyond Reese, 11th was there.

[Johan Bernal]

Yep, yep, yep. Wow.

[Spencer Martin]

Geez.

[Johan Bernal]

Spencer, you do not, you do not know who you're talking to.

[Spencer Martin]

This is, this is true. Some good, good writers in here. And then. Yeah, but it would be, it would have been problematic if you won this Tour de la Vener, Johan. And then people were saying he is the best Belgian Grand Tour rider currently.

[Johan Bernal]

At that. No, at that point I'm gonna, I have to say, you know, at that point in that night. So I was, that was my first year on Lotto. I was already a pro. The formula was different then. It was open, an open race. And it was not even called Tour de la Venue. It was called Tour de la Community. It was a different format. But in 1990, I was considered the next big hope for Belgian Grand Tours. I had done the Tour already. I finished, I think I finished 16 or 17 in my first Tour and you know, I couldn't. I mean, finally I, you know, I. My best result was third in the Vuelta many years later. But I could not fulfill the expectations that were, you know, back then on my shoulders, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, third in the wealth is pretty good. It is super specialized though. Just being good at the Grand Tour, it's not. It's hard to. I would say it's hard to extrapolate that from Joe Blackmore. Good example. We don't know, maybe he's going to be a great Grand Tour rider, but it's not, it's not a one for one. I mean, I, I was shocked. I just wanted to bring that up because I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe, like the lack of depth there. And then, oddly, you'd say, I mean, obviously Slovenia, Slovenia scores really well because of Piga Chart and Roglic with him. But you know, everyone else is kind of, you have a smattering of Spanish writers, you have some, some Italian writers. And the, one of the strongest countries, oddly, is the UK which you would not guess. Clearly Simon Yates leaving takes away one of the riders that was on there, but the UK Stronger than you think.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, Johan, we'll let you get back to your, your Marrakesh goings ons, but thank you for joining us. And we'll be back next week.

[Johan Bernal]

Thanks big.

[Spencer Martin]

Next Friday. Yes.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host - Advertisements]

Talk to you soon.

[Johan Bernal]

Okay.

[Podcast Host - Advertisements]

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