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- [00:00]
A
He didn't win a race in 2025. That's not great for a rider that you're going to pay that much money to. Any concerns about that from you?
- [00:09]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I think it's a great deal for him. I mean, if you're able to strike such a contract, a very lucrative contract after a season that was far from good, I think that's great.
- [00:25]
A
Everybody. Welcome back to the move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are breaking down the week in cycling news. Benny and Grimai joining NSN Pro cycling for the 2026 season. Rumors that INEOS is going after Oscar Onley. A cost cap coming to professional cycling. How would that even work? The Giro root reveal and a few other things before we get to a few listener questions. But Johan, before we get into it, let's take a quick break to hear from today's sponsor. Hey everybody. Today's episode is brought to you by NordVPN, which has become a must have for me to keep up with all the cycling and other sports I wanna watch as I'm traveling around the what I love most is the freedom it gives me. With NordVPN, I can safely access my favorite streams and cycling coverage no matter where I am in the world during major races. That's huge. Whether I'm traveling to a race or just trying to catch a broadcast that isn't available in my home region, I can just switch my virtual location in seconds and watch exactly what I want. For example, I'm going to Spain to the UAE team training camp and I'm thinking, wow, well, I want to watch these college football games that are coming up. Not a problem. I can stay plugged in by just firing up my NordVPN, going to my ESPN account and flipping that on in my hotel in Spain. It's incredibly easy to use. Just one click to connect, and with over 7,500 servers in 118 countries, I can change my virtual location effortlessly. NORDVPN is also one of the fastest VPNs out there, so I never deal with buffering when I'm streaming A big mountain stage plus one NordVPN account works across 10 devices and supports every major platform. Windows, Android and Mac, iOS, you name it, they got it. And if you want to try NordVPN, you can do it right now with no risk with our exclusive NORDVPN deal. Go to NordVPN.com TheMove to try it out risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Again NordVPN.com TheMove for a 30 day money back guarantee. Link is in the episode show notes. Okay, Johan, people were saying this. People were texting me like, can you believe this happened? It's like, yeah, because we talked about this on the show three months ago, but Binyam Grimai is officially joining NSN cycling team for 2026. Why? Why is this happening? Why is he leaving Inter Marche? Lotto, I guess, which is now Lotto. How much is he getting paid to do this? And do you think this is a good idea?
- [02:45]
B
Yeah, well, I mean the rumors were there for a long time then, you know, of course, I think, I think, I think the agreement was probably already almost done when it was still, when the team was still named Israel Premier Tech.
- [03:01]
Then I guess it got on standby a bit because of everything that happened with that team and also because Inter Marche apparently tried to make things difficult for Girmai. Basically, you know, they wanted to hold him to his contract with Inter Marche. Although Inter Marche is not a team anymore and it's now Lotto the responsible for the new team. Lotto Intermarshe. We still don't know exactly how that's gonna become called. Actually it was going to be Lotto Intermarshe or.
- [03:35]
So, but I think, I think it was clear already from, from a few months ago that Binyam Gimai would, would go there. And I think, I mean it's, it's, I think it's a pretty good name, you know, for that team. Although, I mean, I think it's fair to say that Binyamin didn't have the greatest season in 2025 after his amazing 2024 season with, you know, three, three stage wins in the Tour in the green jersey.
- [04:04]
But it's, it's a personality, right? And so he's very recognized, not recognizable.
- [04:10]
So I think it's a good move for both parties. You know.
- [04:16]
When you, I'm, I'm. I'm kind of tempted to think, you know, okay, great, great. Because you know, it's, he's in the, in the, at the end of his career. He's not, he's super young. He, this is not a retirement contract.
- [04:31]
A
He is 25 years old.
- [04:34]
B
Okay, so it's not his last contract, but I think it's a three year deal. If I would have to guess, I have no information, but I am pretty sure it's north of €2 million per year. So not anywhere close to what he was making at Inter Marche was a Lot less there. But I think it's substantially higher than his contract at intermarshe, so definitely a really good deal for him and for the team, I would say. So. So, yeah, I mean, I think I like it. I think it's a good move.
- [05:11]
A
Yeah. And if you think about it, Inter Marche was. Was their closing shop, essentially. So he's going to have to go to a new team anyway. Might as well go to the team that's going to pay you more than 2 million euros a year. I would. I actually like the move for both parties. It gives NSN a much needed identity, you know, right off the bat. Boom. Yeah. Binium, he didn't win a race in 2025. That's not great for a rider that you're going to pay that much money to. Any concerns about that from you?
- [05:39]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I think it's a great deal for him. I mean, if you're able to strike such a contract, a very lucrative contract after a season that was far from good, I think that's great.
- [05:53]
If you would have stayed at Lotto or the new team. Lotto, Inter Marche, they don't have the means to get anywhere close to that kind of money for Binyamin, especially because they already have Arnold Ali, who's on a big contract. So, I mean, concerns. Yeah, I mean, he's young, so I don't know exactly why he underperformed this year. I mean, did he underperform this year? Did he overperform last year? We don't know. I mean, he is definitely a talented rider.
- [06:28]
And, yeah, I can see him bounce back, actually. I can see him win races. Although, you know, in cycling nowadays, everything goes at such a fast pace that once you're out of it, you know, you better don't stay out of it for too long because there's new people coming all the time. And before you know it, you're, you know, one and a half, 2% worse than you were before and you're not. You're not competitive anymore.
- [06:57]
A
Yeah, we're not saying that's going to happen to him. It's just a. It's a concern when you're dealing with this level of money at this level of racing.
- [07:05]
B
It is.
- [07:06]
A
You mean. You mentioned Ali. It's kind of unclear to me if it would have worked even if he would have stayed, because then how does he split that with Arnold Daly? And then who would you rather have, if you had to, if they were going to get paid the same and you were running Lotto, which would you pick the leader.
- [07:25]
B
I mean, if I would be running lotto for sure I would pick the li. First of all because he's Belgian. It's a Belgian team. The Lee is super talent, incredible potential.
- [07:40]
Tends to, you know, have difficulties, struggles a little bit with, you know, staying focused for a long time. But you know, if you get him on the rails, he is incredibly strong. I mean, he had a difficult beginning of the season, was underperforming, then took a little break, then did the Tour and came out of the Tour de France with really good shape. Did a good, pretty, a few good stages at the Tour. But then after the Tour he had like a few months where he was really, really good. I think he won like six, seven races in a very short period of time. So the Lee is definitely a huge, huge talent.
- [08:24]
It just needs to be more, more steady, more, you know, more consistent in his performances and stay focused. But if I would be running lotto, you have to say you have to choose the Lee over, over Girmai.
- [08:37]
A
I mean, just between August 24th and September 20th, he won five races.
- [08:42]
B
Delete.
- [08:43]
A
That's impressive. He's two years younger than Girmai. Interestingly, if you every, every race in their career, they've gone head to head 105 times. The Lee's won 55 times. Grimai's won 47 times. So the Lee's younger and has, I mean who, I mean we would have really have to dig into that to find like useful metrics, but that's not nothing. I mean he's really good. I think this is a good move for Grimai to go to NSN for sure. Get paid a lot of money.
- [09:11]
B
It's a good idea. Yeah, I like it. Yeah.
- [09:14]
A
And then what is going on within a sen pro cycle? I don't know if we talked about this last week, but they had their team camp and who is at the team camp but, but their old friend Sylvan Adams. I mean, what do we make of this?
- [09:27]
B
Well, I mean, I don't think it's, I mean, yeah, it's, it's, I mean it was official. I think he, yeah, there were reports he was there.
- [09:36]
Officially he's not involved anymore with the team. I guess. I, I, I don't believe that. I think he is still involved, especially because I'm pretty sure that for 2026, as I said in last week, he is still financing the team. So yeah, I think behind the scenes his is, I mean, you know, and it's, I'm fine with it actually. If he's I mean, you know, I think that statement of him being not stepping back was, was more of a political statement than, than anything else.
- [10:14]
But. But yeah, I mean we saw now that officially they changed to Scott. Right? That's official factor is out.
- [10:22]
Scott moves from Q 36.5, which is now going to be Pinarello Q 36.5 to NSN. And yeah, I've also heard that and that's actually interesting for somebody like Derek G. I think that's good news for Derek G. I have heard that during the training camp that all the riders on NSN or at least all the riders that were part of Israel Premier Tech, now nsn, so with running contracts had to sign new contracts.
- [10:59]
I don't know if it's because if the new contract says. I mean normally when you sign a contract, you sign it with the paying agent. Let's say whatever, sports promotion. Whatever sports promotion.
- [11:15]
How do you call that? Incorporated something like a company, right, who owns and manages the team. That's usually how it goes. So you sign a contract with that paying agent and then it doesn't really matter what the team is called. So the fact that they had to sign new contracts tells me that there's probably a change in the paying agent or something substantial that would not make the, that would not allow the existing contracts to be valid anymore for 2026. So if they had to sign new contracts. And also the fact that for example, one of the riders of Israel, Premier Tech, who was linked to Premier Tech, the Canadian writer Hugo Huel, had a contract for 2026 with the team and has left. So doesn't fulfill his contract and moves to Alpecin.
- [12:08]
A
Whoa.
- [12:09]
B
So I think that those contracts. So for Derek G, I think it opens a door and you know, we haven't heard any or read anything about it, but.
- [12:21]
It'S safe to say that Derek G is not going to ride for NSN cycling team and.
- [12:29]
I'm pretty confident he's going to ride for Ineos in 2026.
- [12:33]
A
Well, that's pretty significant if people are signing new contracts. Hugo Houle is leaving. That would suggest that maybe Derek G is canceling. I hope he got refundable hotel rooms in Switzerland for his court dates because he might not be fighting this in court for as long as he thought. I would love to see that just resolved and him be able to move on because I really like him as a writer. Interesting. You mentioned Hugo Houl because where is he from? He's from Quebec. Who else is from Quebec? Premier Tech the company and Premier Tech is leaving nsn going to, we heard today, Alpecin. So the team's getting called Alpus and Premier Tech. Decoenick is staying, just not at a title sponsor level. This seems like a really good situation for the Rudhoof brothers. I, I can't believe they pulled this off.
- [13:18]
B
Yeah, well, you know, there were rumors already then, you know, there was some doubt when Premier Tech announced that they were associating themselves with this French team. What's it called?
- [13:29]
A
The French team, like Mont St. Michel? It's like.
- [13:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they have a men's team too, I think, but, but I think it's more of a partnership. They were definitely not in the name. I think they're focusing more on the women's team there in France. I saw that there's two Canadian writers on the women's team obviously also linked with Premier Tech. But hey, I mean, if Premier Tech had to go, had the choice to go somewhere, I mean, I would choose Alpecin in a heartbeat. I mean, it's, you know, when you can associate yourself with the program of the Roth brothers and with, you know, Matthew vanderpooli, Asper Phillips and Katie Moves.
- [14:14]
It'S, it's not, I mean, it's not that difficult. I, I think that's not a difficult decision. I think it's smart decision from both sides.
- [14:24]
So, yeah, I'm not, I'm not surprised that that happened. But today it's been officially confirmed finally.
- [14:31]
A
Yeah, I mean, and it's such a. And you keep deconick at some level, but they were going to step back anyway and you fill the title sponsorship slot. Really good for them. Would also suggest, as we said, Derek G. Probably free to go if Hugo Hool was free to go. Speaking of teams writers. Yeah. I think you said Derek G is going to be writing for ineos. Well, another, another rumor we've heard is Oscar Onley's being pursued aggressively by ineos. Have you heard anything about this? Do you think this is legitimate and do you think this is a good idea?
- [15:05]
B
Yeah, I've also read some speculations. It's not official. I think it's just thinking out loud right now, but it would make sense to me now. The question is, okay, we're now, what are we? 5th December. Right.
- [15:21]
To see that happening now would be unique, I would say. But not impossible. Not impossible. Yeah. So, I mean, I've read about it, Spencer. It's not an official news, but I think it's just, you know, thinking out loud.
- [15:39]
I kind of think it would make sense.
- [15:43]
For Ineos for sure. For Oscar only also. And then, you know, of course we have his existing team, Picnic. What is it? Picnic Post nl. I mean they changed name so many times the last years.
- [15:59]
You know, that's.
- [16:02]
It has happened before. I mean the manager or the owner of the team, Ivan Spakenbrink, I think he's kind of a specialist and he's, I would call him like the wheeler dealer in professional cyclists. It has happened a lot that riders that were on his team with existing contracts have left.
- [16:25]
Tom Dimoula, Mark Hershey, Marcel Kittel, many. I mean these.
- [16:32]
A
John Degenkolb, I believe.
- [16:34]
B
No, Degenkolb is still there.
- [16:36]
A
He's still at that team.
- [16:37]
B
Yeah. He still races. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:40]
A
I forgot he was still there.
- [16:42]
B
So, so, you know, Spike and Brink in that point of view has been a very smart business decision maker, is that he got a lot of money for letting riders go that still had running contracts. That's another way of financing the team or his own pockets. I don't know. I've always, I struggle to understand, Spencer. I don't know what you think is, you know, if you have these star riders and you're kind of getting these sponsors on board and we know, you know, we had, what did we have? We had dsm then we had. What was it, Fermonic or Fermik or something?
- [17:23]
A
Yep.
- [17:26]
B
Anyways, there's been so many. I mean, I, I don't know. I don't, I, I, this, it's like a team without identity. But how can, how, I don't know how he manages to justify these departures to his sponsors.
- [17:41]
Unless, unless, you know, he says, okay, he, he's, let's say he's getting them, he's getting the money for the rider and then makes a deal with the sponsor that they, that X amount less. I don't know. I mean there must be some kind of agreement there. But you know, if you let your riders go, you're good riders, your team gets weaker and weaker and I think it's safe to say, you know, that team is one of the weakest, if not the weakest team in the, in the World Tour, especially now that Covid is, is gone.
- [18:14]
A
Well, so the only thing I was thinking of is what you said, that it's a deal with the sponsors. Like you're coming in at this price. This is not enough for us to sustain. We're going to have make a sale, maybe that's disclosed up front. But here's a question for you. Of these riders that they've sold, who is. Who has done better after they leave?
- [18:33]
B
Not many.
- [18:34]
A
Not. Not many at all. So he can go to the sponsors and say, hey, trust me. Like, I know when I'm selling high and this is a good decision. I'm not saying I don't want to wish ill on.
- [18:44]
B
Why would that be? That's a bit suspicious. I. I don't want. I don't want to be the. The devil's advocate here, but that's a bit strange. Like, okay, you know, he's performing extremely well. Like, Hershey, for example, was flying when he was at. Was it DSM or was it Giant still? I was dsm.
- [19:01]
A
No, it was dsm. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:04]
B
And. And then leaves. And he got back to a level, a certain level that like, you know, two years after he left. But I don't know, it's strange. It's strange. I mean.
- [19:18]
I mean, Kittel, after Kittel left. Yeah, I guess Kittel went to Quick Step and one of. Well, he won quite some stages at the Tour.
- [19:29]
A
There are legitimate reasons to why, you know, you could just be like, we train these guys into the ground, like, their legs are about to fall off. Let's get rid of them. I mean, that's not pleasant to think about. So John Daden called. So this is where the confusion came in. He was at Giant, Alpecin.
- [19:46]
B
Oh, left for Trek, and he left.
- [19:49]
A
And came back later.
- [19:50]
B
That's why we were confused.
- [19:52]
A
But let's take a quick break, and then when we get back, let's talk about how if Oscar. If. If Oscar Onley does it, how would he slot in in Theos? And is this a good pickup for them? Everybody? This episode is brought to you by Huell. Every December, I promise I'm going to stay on top of my. My wellness routine, and suddenly I'm traveling. I'm at three different family dinners, and my nutrition plan falls apart. But this year, shockingly, Huel's the reason I'm going to solve this problem. That's Huel. Huel. Lately, I've been using the Huel Ready to drink. And I'm leaning into it right now. Complete meal in a bottle. 35 grams of protein, 7 grams of fiber, and 27 vitamin. Vitamins and minerals. It's got it right here because I need it to get me through this podcast. Literally ready to go. No prep, no mess, and keeps me full when the alternate is grabbing whatever snack is closest or the airplane food or not. The air, the airport food that's not going to help you stay healthy. And they have a new chocolate peanut butter flavor that is just so good. It makes avoiding those chocolate peanut butter cups just a bit easier and helps you with the sweet tooth. And I've been loving Huell's new canned super greens drink as well. 42 vitamins and nutrients, 4 grams of fiber, 25 calories and no added sugar. It's so popular around my house I went to grab it for the sad read gone. I've been out of the house the last few days and people have been taking those super green drinks because they are delicious and good for you. And Huell just launched in the Target Nationwide. Find them in the health and wellness aisle. Get Huell today with this exclusive offer for new customers. 15% off with code the move@hu.com the move that's h.com the move minimum $75 purchase and just thanks again to Huell for helping me stay sane and healthy during this holiday season. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Bubs Natural. You know the moment you realize you're not 25 anymore. For me, that's been doing the El Tour to Tucson, then going to Thanksgiving, then going down to Austin for some work, and now on to Spain for the UA Team camp. The jet lag is is tougher than it used to race. Recovery is harder, and my body just isn't bouncing back as quickly anymore. Getting older hits harder than you'd expect. But here's the good news. It does not have to. And that's why I've been using Bubs Natural Collagen Peptides. Starting in your mid-20s, your body produces less collagen every single year. But collagen is literally the glue that holds everything together. So it's important. And Bubs helps you, helps you bring those levels closer to what your body had when you were younger. The result? Stronger joints, healthier hair and nails, smoother skin, and a noticeably faster recovery. And the best part is how easy it is to use. Just mix a scoop into the into your morning coffee. I do it every day, even while I'm traveling. There's no taste, no smell, and it dissolves in instantly. No clumps, no chalky aftertaste. You don't even know it's there until you feel the difference. And what makes Bubs special is the story behind it. The company's named after Glenn Bub Daugherty, a former native Navy seal, an American hero who lost his life saving others in Benghazi. The brand carries his spirit of Improvement and service. And Bubs donates 10% of all profits to charity, starting with the Glen Doherty Memorial Foundation. So live better, longer. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting 20% off at Bubs Naturals by using code WEDU W E D U at checkout. Just head to b u b s naturals.com and use code WEDO and you're all set for that 20% off after your purchase. I'll ask you where you heard about him. Please tell them it was us so we get credit for it and you can support the show. All right, let's get back to it. Okay, Johan, so if Oscar Onley, let's say he does go to ineos, we don't know if that's going to happen, but if he does, is this a good acquisition for them? And like, where is the team heading with him as their leader?
- [23:35]
B
I think it's good for both.
- [23:38]
The question is also, again, you know, is Oscar only going to perform at the same level when he's not with Picnic Post NL anymore? I would guess yes. He's a good writer. I think for ineos, they kind of need a British top rider and it's the only one right now that would be available.
- [24:04]
I mean, there's the Yate brothers, but they're. I think they're set. Yeah, they've been already at the Naos.
- [24:10]
A
Or Sky, so at least Adam was.
- [24:13]
B
Yeah, both.
- [24:15]
A
Both were at ineos. I think losing my mind today.
- [24:18]
B
Pretty sure both were.
- [24:19]
A
Hold on a second. Both the ineos. Hold on. No, no. So, okay, so this is Simon Yates. Remember, he started at Orica. Adam leaves. The Mitchell Scott Orca. Adam leaves. He stays all the way until this was his first year. Not on that team when he went to. Yeah. Which is potentially why his career wasn't as illustrious.
- [24:45]
B
Yeah, well, you know, that's debatable, Spencer. I mean, if you look at. If you. Has won the Vuelta and the Giro and Adam Yates hasn't won a Grand Tour, that's.
- [24:56]
A
I mean, nothing is more fun to me than debating Simon or ad. They actually have a creepy similar career.
- [25:03]
B
Yeah.
- [25:03]
A
And. But almost, you know, like, almost when one is good, the other is. Wait, like one is waxing, one is waning. And then like Simon broke out this year. Obviously he won the Vuelta.
- [25:14]
B
Yeah.
- [25:14]
A
Well, why is. Yeah, why is Adam never won a Grand Tour? That's kind of interesting.
- [25:17]
B
Two years ago. Was it two years ago. Three years ago, they were. They were third and four. Third and fourth in the Tour and.
- [25:24]
A
First and Second on the opening stage.
- [25:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [25:27]
A
Wild.
- [25:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, but I mean, Oscar only, I think it would make sense for. I mean, we still don't know what's going to happen with Derek G. But, you know, I would say, you know, with all the respect for both of those writers, but, you know.
- [25:45]
Derek G. Is also not. I mean, at least he hasn't proven yet that he is a solid leader that a team really can, you know, build their whole program around. And neither is Oscar only. I think Oscar only is probably been more consistent than Derek G. But, you know, they're podium candidates in Grand Tours. They're not candidate winners of Grand Tours in today's cycling, I would say.
- [26:18]
And so, yeah, I mean, there's not that many, right. There's not that many riders who can win Grand Tours and that are available and that would be interesting. But.
- [26:30]
Listen, I think the fact that it has remained so quiet on the transfer front at INEOS speaks for, in my opinion, there's still something cooking. I think the Derek G. Situation, that agreement, in my opinion, is done behind the scenes now. It's to be solved, you know, legally. But the Oscar only.
- [26:55]
You know, possibility, it's. I think, I think it would still be, you know, I think Brailsford is still going to try to make it happen.
- [27:03]
A
I agree. I think there's something cooking and I think that the fact that Sam Wellsford was coming and then now it's pending, it's not signed, like they're waiting to see something. Let me, let me argue the devil's advocate here. So let's just say Oscar Onley, Derek G. And Kevin Bucklawn go to that team for next year.
- [27:24]
All three of those guys, and I say this with all due respect, were on far inferior teams in terms of money to spend on training camps, money to spend on equipment, trainers, methodology. If they were doing what they were doing with those teams. If you're Dave Brailsford, are you thinking, well, I bring them in and these are, these are thoroughbreds hiding in plain sight versus someone like Juana uso, who is on the world's best team. And because that's the only other alternative, right? Like Tada Pagatro is not available. Jonas Vinegar is not available. Who are you going to get? That's a. Like Isaac del Toro is not available. There's not a lot of options out there. Yeah, I think these guys might be your best bet if you're ineos. For sure. For sure.
- [28:06]
B
And yeah, I mean, it's, it's clear that they're gonna find an infrastructure that they're not used to.
- [28:13]
You know, sometimes it happens that riders who perform really well on a smaller team go to a bigger team, and you don't see that much difference, if any at all.
- [28:24]
A
So sometimes they get worse, actually. Yeah.
- [28:28]
B
I mean, sometimes get worse. Yeah.
- [28:30]
A
But Matteo Jorgensen and Christophe Laporte would be the two big examples. Mateo Jorgensen was very good at Mostar, but he stepped up a level when he went to Visma, for sure.
- [28:41]
B
Yeah.
- [28:41]
A
I think if you're in. Yes. You. This is the only option at the moment. You have to hope that these guys can find another level and that you're buying low on them, because otherwise, I don't really love the idea of. I mean, people. Red Bull spent so much money on Remco. The other two. Yeah. The other two options are Remco and Juan uso, and they cost so, so much money.
- [29:01]
B
Yeah.
- [29:01]
A
Like, is that really going to pan out?
- [29:04]
B
Yeah, no, I think. I think those are. You know, there are not, Not. Not many options. So. And I think in the case of Oscar only, it makes. It makes a lot of sense to. To go after him after.
- [29:20]
He's. He's Scottish. No, he's a Scott.
- [29:22]
A
He's Scott.
- [29:23]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:23]
A
He's from the. The Borderlands, I think. I don't know.
- [29:26]
B
I mean, I, I. You know, who INEOS really needs to have in there? I mean, it's. It's kind of, you know, not. Not logical that he's not on INEOS is Matthew Brennan.
- [29:40]
A
He's the guy I know. He's the superstar British writer that got away. How did that happen? We're not quite sure. Also a really strange amount of good writers that come from. It's like, south of the Thames down to the English Channel. There's, like, so many top riders that come from there. I think Matthew Brennan's from there. The Herne Hill Velodrome, greater area. But speaking of riders, gc, let's just pencil tattoo. People don't want to do this, but let's just pencil tattoo. And for Tour title 2026. So if you're Ineos, you're probably not trying. You're not trying to win the Tour with these guys in 2026. You're trying to win other Grand Tours, and then you're trying to win the Tour. Maybe in a slightly longer timeline, one of those Tours, Grand Tours, Gird Italia just released its route and, you know, it's all. I feel like all these routes kind of look the same I don't want to be dismissive of the gird. Italia, I can't even find it's. It's the tab here, but it's 21 stages starts in Bulgaria. It seems like every year Italia now has to start in an Eastern European country. They do it so they can make money. The thing is we get an extra rest day as content providers, which is nice. And it has a one time trial, 40k long. It's flat. I assume that's a little gift to Remco Evanopol. A tough third week, but maybe not quite as crushing as years passed, which is potentially to open things up. Like stage 14 has a. It says 16k long, 17k long finishing climb at 7%. And then stage 16 has a 12k long climb at 8%. So it's still some tough summit finishes. In terms of starters, we have Isaac del Toro confirmed, I believe. And then we have Jonas Vinegard potential and Remco Evanopol potential starter.
- [31:30]
If all those three start, who do you think wins? And do you think Jonas and Remco should do this or is this giving up on the Tour?
- [31:37]
B
I think Remco has kind of hinted that. I mean, his focus is the Tour. I mean the, the spring classics with Flesh and Liege and, and the Tour. So I don't think Remco will be at the start of the Giro.
- [31:54]
I think they're going to go for. I mean, I don't know if. Don't know if Primos would. I mean, Primos would probably. I mean, in my opinion, Primos should probably do the Giro and the Vuelta then at Red Bull and then.
- [32:11]
A
Yeah, they also have John Henley, so.
- [32:14]
B
No. And they have Pelizani also. Who wants to do Giro.
- [32:17]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:18]
B
And then Lipowitz and Remco the Tour and then Primos full gas for the Vuelta.
- [32:26]
A
Are we missing one of their GC riders? They have a lot of GC riders.
- [32:31]
B
Oh, they have, they have Danny Martinez, but he's kind of faded away a bit.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah, I guess he could be back in theory, but that would be.
- [32:39]
B
I mean, he was second. He was second in the Giro.
- [32:43]
A
Pretty good. Pretty good writer. I think you're right.
- [32:46]
B
I think.
- [32:47]
A
Oh, Alexander Vlasov, not really G Strider anymore, but I think Primos does have to do zero. The smarter move would be then.
- [32:53]
B
I think the question is Jonas, right? I mean, Jonas. It would make sense for Jonas to do the Giro. I think he has a great chance of winning it. I mean, basically, whenever today is not there, it's Jonas. The big Favorite So he can definitely win this, this Giro d'. Italia and then he would have won all three Grand Tours, which is definitely something that every professional champion wants to, you know, tick that box. If you can win all three, there's not that many who have done it.
- [33:24]
I think Jonas has kind of indicated he would like to go and then I read somewhere that his team is not too eager for him to focus on the Giro.
- [33:39]
Because if he would do the Giro, he would do the Giro and the Tour de France. And I think, I think, you know, one of the, one of the challenges is I think Jonas can perfectly do the Giro in the Tour.
- [33:49]
The question is, if you focus on winning the Giro, is that kind of, you know, subconsciously kind of giving up on giving it your 100% for the tour?
- [34:03]
It is at the expense of the Tour de France a little bit. If you do the Giro, unless you're tale Pogachar and you do, you win six stages at the Giro and six stages at the Tour back in 2024. But the challenge is also, Spencer, to have a proper supporting team around that leader for both of those races. And that's, I think that's the difficulty. And then of course they do have Simon Yates at Visma who has pointed out that he would like to go back himself. He said that the team hadn't decided yet.
- [34:40]
So I don't know. I think.
- [34:44]
What we do know is Del Toro goes and I probably, I think most likely Simon Yates will be there too.
- [34:53]
In this case. I would definitely, I think, I think, I mean, yeah, I think Del is the favorite to win.
- [35:01]
A
I don't.
- [35:01]
B
Unless Primo shows up and you know, and wants to go for it.
- [35:05]
A
That would be awesome. If I would, I would love nothing more than that. Del Toro, I mean, I'm going to get a first hand view out of look at him next week. But I think he's getting better by the day. I think by the time the Giro rolls around, Primos might not be able to compete with him. I mean that 40k teeth. What's funny about these TTs is what GC tender. Does that not suit Primo's Broglie? Really good time trials. Jonas Vinegard really good time trials. Isaac Del Toro, good time trial. Simon Yates maybe not so good. He's the only one that would lose out. Potentially not so much.
- [35:41]
B
I mean he, he won the time trial in the Giro.
- [35:45]
A
That was wild in Romania, right?
- [35:47]
B
It's not that long ago. Was it three years ago, four years ago?
- [35:50]
A
I think it was three. Must have been.
- [35:52]
B
It was in Hungary.
- [35:53]
A
It was Hungary. Yeah. Yeah. But here, let's look at stage 10 time trial from this year. Where was Simon Yates?
- [36:02]
Yeah, he is pretty good. 23rd, right behind Juana. You so. And 20ish. Second spot behind. No, 30 seconds behind Primus Raglage. So he can. Yeah, he can time trial when he has to. I. I would be surprised if he wins a second zero. But, but the, The. So the flip side, I guess, of Sin and Jonas is, okay, maybe it's waving the white flag on the Tour, but is it also take. Maybe taking his mind off the Tour in a helpful way? Like, let's focus on taking your pressure off for sure. Yeah. Win it and then it's less pressure.
- [36:39]
B
The thing is, Spencer, they're gonna have to ride in a different way. They have to try something different. Right.
- [36:44]
A
If.
- [36:45]
B
If they want to put Pugach under pressure.
- [36:49]
So in my opinion, the real.
- [36:53]
Approach towards having a chance of winning the Tour is just be in the race. Save, save, save energy. Be there and be ready in the case something happens to Bugachar. I think right now, unfortunately, that's the most hopeful scenario. You know, you need to be in pole position in case something happens to the big favorite. And in that case, it could make sense for Jonas to go and do the Giro and then be at the Tour and just play the waiting game.
- [37:28]
A
I agree that you have to play the. Think of Simon Yates at the zero last year, just waiting. You know, less is more waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And then if an opportunity presents itself, you pounce. I think they. They cannot do this front foot. I mean, it's funny because we criticize teams for not being on the front foot, but they can't do this. We're controlling it. We're here to win. I think you really have to just sit back, let UAE control the race, and if something goes wrong, you pounce. But, yeah, I think you should do the zero. I mean, I don't know. I think if you just go all in for the Tour, are you just setting yourself up for a lot of stress and potential failure and maybe get. But here's this. Johan, let's say he wins the Giro. How many ride he would then have won the Giro d'?
- [38:14]
B
Italia?
- [38:15]
A
Tour de France, Fault Espana. How many riders have done that in their career? Not many.
- [38:19]
B
Yeah, not many. I know Eddie Merckx has done it. Vincenzo Nibali has done it. Chris Froome, Contador, Bernard Hino.
- [38:34]
A
I mean, really close.
- [38:35]
B
We would go back. Is there somebody more recent? I don't think so.
- [38:41]
And probably we go towards. I don't know.
- [38:45]
A
Yeah. And then there's. There's one more.
- [38:48]
B
One more.
- [38:49]
A
One more. Older.
- [38:51]
Felice Giamondi.
- [38:53]
B
Oh, Diamondi. Okay.
- [38:54]
A
Yeah. So it's Mercs Hino for this is an elite list. Merckxino, Froome, Ankatil, Giamandi, Contador Nipoli. Yeah, it's so. I mean, that's not nothing. The chance to join that club.
- [39:07]
B
Yeah, no, it's.
- [39:08]
A
It's.
- [39:08]
B
I mean, this. We all know, especially, I mean, like Spencer, there's so many riders who are, you know, doing everything they can to win a stage in every one of.
- [39:18]
A
The big two Big Tours, you know.
- [39:20]
B
Let alone trying to win the overall of all three Grand Tours. That's like. That's like the ultimate accomplishment, you know, I mean, if you've done that, then, you know, there's. I mean, and then out of these ones, you said.
- [39:37]
It'S. I think it's only Merckx. Did Ankatil win all three? Yeah.
- [39:42]
A
Yeah.
- [39:42]
B
But he was never world champion on the road. I think.
- [39:48]
I think it's only Merckx and Jimondi were world champion on the road and win all three Grand Tours.
- [39:57]
Wow.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah.
- [39:57]
B
That's like, you know, the Big Four, you know, the three Grand Tours and the World Championships.
- [40:02]
A
Should Piga start? No, he's already won this year. Yeah. So he has to win the vault of this year.
- [40:06]
B
We got to win the vault. I mean, he just needs to show up and he's going to win it.
- [40:10]
A
Then that takes us back here if we think there's a chance he is the vault, that you better go to the Giro, because I don't like any. I meant to do a deep dive on this, too, but you mentioned the stages. People say almost as a verbal tick, I'm going to target stages. But actually, if you look into it, there's. So there's a lot of stages. What? There's 60. There's 42 plus 21 stages. So 63. But there's not 63 stage winners. You know, there's like a large portion of riders eat up almost all those stages, and it's really hard to win a stage at a Grand Tour way.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, listen, this. I always, you know, there's. There's themes of writers who say, I know a writer for. No, I'm going to. I'm not going to go for gc. I'm going to try to win a few stages.
- [40:57]
A
A few stages.
- [40:58]
B
When I see that, man, I said, why don't you just try to win one? Right. Winning one is extremely difficult. Extremely difficult. It's really difficult in reach of very few people.
- [41:12]
A
It's far more difficult than people. Than people think.
- [41:14]
B
It's.
- [41:15]
A
It's shocking winning any race. Like what did we say about Grimaid at the top of the show? Didn't even win a race in 20 from 2025. Didn't have a particularly bad season. Just. It's that hard to win a race.
- [41:25]
B
Yeah.
- [41:26]
A
Let's take a quick break, Johan, and then we're going to talk about the potential for a cost cap or some confusing messaging around that. And then the what trouble may be on the horizon for those of us who watch cycling on hbo. Max. Hey everybody. This episode is brought to you by Caldera Lab. With the days getting shorter and winter air getting drier, it's harder than ever to to keep your skin hydrated and in good shape. Well, that's where Caldera Lab comes in. They've completely redefined men's skin care by combining advanced science with clean, non toxic ingredients. So it's simple, effective and actually works. Their lineup is perfect for a change in the season and ideal for keeping your skin looking as good as it was in your 20s. They have the good and award winning serum that delivers nearly 3.4 million antioxidant units per drop to help protect your skin and keep it looking smooth and hydrated. The eye serum tackles dark circles and puffiness. 75% of users said their eyes looked brighter after using it. In the base layer is a quick absorbing, nutrient rich moisturizer with a clean matte finish. No greasy feel, no fuss. Since I started using it, I feel like my skin looks better and the routine every morning just has me leaving the house feeling confident and ready to go. So whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine, Caldera Lab makes skincare simple and effective. Don't settle for drugstore junk or steal your partner's products. Elevate your routine with skincare made for you. Head to calderalab.com themove and use code THEMOVE at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab.com THEMOVE everybody. This episode is brought to you by Quint's Cold Mornings Holiday plans. This is when my wardrobe needs to just work. That's why I'm all about quints. They make it easy to look sharp, feel good and find gifts that last. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, Quint's pieces are crafted from premium materials and built to hold up without the luxury markup. Quinn's makes essentials every guy needs and each piece is made from premium materials and is something you'd actually want to wear. And it's built to hold up season after season. You're not buying something you're just going to throw away at the end of the year. I'm currently in Texas on a trip and I brought only Quince clothes. I am loving them. The jeans, the stretch jeans, comfortable on the flight. The T shirts are breathable yet stylish looking. So get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quints.com themove for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. It's also available in Canada now as well. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com themove free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com themove.
- [44:04]
The move is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates Price and Coverage Match Limited by state law not available in all states okay, so Johan David Lepartian, the UCR president, recently had a comment where he said they floated the idea of a cost cap to the teams, but the teams voted it down, and especially the smaller teams.
- [44:41]
Why would the smaller teams do that? I can't quite wrap my head around that.
- [44:46]
B
I've read that too. I don't know, Spencer.
- [44:52]
I'm sitting on the fence of this salary cap. I think first of all, cycling doesn't really understand really in detail what a salary cap is.
- [45:07]
Now you told me that in, for example, in, in other sports in the US it's, it's an expense cap. It's not like a budget cap.
- [45:17]
And I think in cycling it's different because, you know, what goes in, what comes in, goes out. Yeah, because there's no revenue tradition, there's no other revenue than sponsorship. So I think cycling is different in that way that the economic model is completely disturbed.
- [45:36]
And you know, you own a team but you don't know if you're going to own a team next year because you're depending on sponsoring and any other sport is different. You know, it's an establishment that's, you know, they have, they have their stadium, they have their, you know, their tradition, their, you know, they're following.
- [45:56]
Some sports clubs or sport teams it's like a religion. For example, here in, in Europe, football, soccer, as you guys call it, it's, you know, the big teams, it's a religion. You are part of a cult basically.
- [46:10]
That doesn't exist in cycling. And, and so I don't know if, and would it really work in cycling? I'm kind of tempted to think that if there would be a salary cap.
- [46:28]
It would obviously, I think it would hurt the.
- [46:33]
Because it's a certain amount of money you're allowed to spend amongst your 25 or whatever, 30 riders, right? Yeah.
- [46:45]
Then I'm going to guess there's ways around it. There's image contracts, for example. Do these image contracts, are they part of the salary cap?
- [46:55]
I don't know.
- [46:58]
I think cycling is not ready for salary cap, honestly. I think cycling needs to work on improving the health of the economy of cycling.
- [47:10]
And then start to think about making it more equal. I do agree. Right now there are teams, UAE.
- [47:19]
Visma, Red Bull, Little Track. These four teams in particular, you know, they do have huge budgets and they, they are, you know, taking a big advantage on, on other teams. But where is this not the case? You know, if, if I look, for example at football here in Spain, I mean, you have, you have Madrid and Barcelona, you know, they're, they're head and shoulders above everybody else in terms of budget and they're, they're dominating the sport. And it's been like this, you know, it's once in a while, one, you know, an odd year, there's another club that comes to the front and win the championships. But usually it's these two. Right. And in other, other sports it's the same. I mean this, I, I just think cycling needs to change. I mean, why don't we, why don't we. If we do a budget cap, let's. And then there's, there's, there's, there's also talks about a system of redistributing the money. Right. Amongst the poorer, the poorer teams. Why don't we do the same with organizers? Why don't we bring ASO to the table and say, okay, budget cap, you cannot earn more than this. Whatever is more, you need to redistribute it in the sport.
- [48:40]
A
They're going to love that, we should say.
- [48:44]
B
And the UCI by the way, also they need to be part of a budget cap.
- [48:49]
A
But they don't. They're just a non profit, Johan. They're just barely.
- [48:54]
But you mentioned Real Madrid and Barcelona. It's a very good point. People seem to forget this with other sports, it's like, yeah, a few teams dominate. Even, even amongst those two though, Real Madrid is so wealthy and so dominant. I mean you look at their accounts, they're, they're, they're crushing even these state backed teams. And I, I'm going to forget the stat, but it's something like since 2018, they've won more champions leagues than Barcelona has in their history. Like that's how dominant Real Madrid is. But you might be, we might be answering our question of why did this get voted down? Because it might not make any sense whatsoever in cycling, the way cycling currently is.
- [49:32]
B
Spencer, you know what I think? I think.
- [49:37]
It'S voted down because no owner or manager of a cycling team is able to have a long term vision because they are by necessity focused on survival every single year.
- [49:55]
In order to be in favor, you need to be able to have a long term vision and say, hey, you know what, this is good because in five years I'm still going to be here and this is going to be better. Right? But every single manager, unless you have backers like uae, but everybody else there, I mean even Visma, you know, they're constantly struggling for survival the next year or the next two years and you just can't have a long term vision. So they just focus on getting as much possible money to the team and, and try to have the best possible team for the year after.
- [50:35]
A
And so we should say the reason American owners like budget caps or salary caps is that it caps expenses while then revenue is unlimited. So if you're an American football team, you can only spend, let's say $100 million, but you could make 4 billion. So that sounds pretty good. And what happens when you do that is it increases the enterprise values of the team. So if you own a team and you are like, yeah, we should do a salary cap because now the team I own is worth 10 times. Because this is why NFL teams are worth more than Premier League teams, even though the Premier League is kind of bringing in a salary cap because those teams bleed money. You know, players are so expensive. There's an arms race with Real Madrid for the best players. And, but in the US there's no arms race because all these teams are limited on how much money they can spend. It caps what players can earn, it allows owners to make more money and then more importantly sell their franchises for a wild amount of money because the, they're worth more because imagine a business where they say, yeah, the amount of money you spend is limited by law, but the Amount of money you can make is unlimited. You'd say that sounds pretty awesome. And then that business is worth a lot of money. Cycling doesn't really have that structure. There's no franchise structure. You would say F1 would be the closest. F1 recently implemented a cost cap that a lot of teams lost money. Now they make money because the amount of money they can spend is limited. But those teams again, are kind of in a franchise system. And I don't think the driver salaries are included. So in F1, it works because what's important is F1 is your car and the amount of engineers you have working on the car. That's all capped. Like, one team can't spend more time in a wind tunnel than another. You know, is that a crazy thing to think about in pro cycling? Like, what if should everyone be on the same tire? Like in F1, every team is on the same tires. I'm like, yeah, is that. Yeah. Is that something that could be. Or you can't do more testing or your altitude camps can't cost more than another teams. Even though it's like in the NBA, we were talking in the pre record, a team is in trouble potentially because they were paying a player the maximum or he took a lesser salary. But then the owner had a business that was paying him a lot of money to be a brand ambassador, like $25 million. And then they're trying to decide if that was double dealing or not.
- [53:01]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that would, that would probably. There would be ways to. But anyways, bottom line is, I think personally sacking is not ready for this. There's a lot of other problems that need to get fixed first.
- [53:18]
A
Like a lot of other problems.
- [53:19]
B
The first one is the business model of the sport.
- [53:23]
A
I was going to say the first one is. Is the roads, like not having curved sprint finishes.
- [53:27]
B
Yeah, yeah. But the business model of the sport that needs to change. Listen. Is unheard of that the main players of the sport, which are riders and teams, do not have any participation in the biggest revenue of the sport, which is the TV rights. That makes no sense. That needs to change first. And then teams would have to, you know, would have less concern.
- [53:55]
And, and less struggle to survive year after year.
- [53:58]
A
Well, speaking of TV rights, you. You're. So how do we watch cycling on tv? Well, it's been an up and down time, but currently it's not terrible if you're not in the uk because if you're not in the uk, hbo, Max in the US it's not quite as good Because HBO Max doesn't have the Tour de France, but I believe in France and Spain and Germany, you just get this HBO Max service. It's not very much. I have a French subscription. It's something like. I believe it's about €70 a year and I can watch all the races on my French HBO Max. But Warner Brothers Discovery, who owns HBO Max, just split their sports assets. So TNT, CNN, that's not sports, but like TN10, TNT and Eurosport basically got split off from the Warner Brothers studio and HBO Max. Now they're trying to sell that to Netflix. Netflix says they're buying it. The US government's going to try to block that because someone very close to the administration, Larry Ellison, wants to buy it. So his son wants to buy it, David Ellison. So they're going to probably fight that in. The important thing is this split is not good for us, Johan. Because it means, I would assume it means that TNT and Eurosports sports assets, which include cycling, will no longer be on HBO Max. Which means if you're not familiar with the UK system, if you're in the UK and you try to, oh, I'm going to buy some cycling. Sounds like a good idea. I went online and you have to get this Discovery plus app. It like comes with the TNT sports package. It's like $600 a year. Like, I now am worried that that's coming for the rest of us, that these HBO Max easy days are over for us.
- [55:43]
B
Yeah, yeah, I watch it on Max, on HBO Max. It's very good.
- [55:49]
A
So, yeah, it's very sad. Let's hope that doesn't happen. We'll keep everyone updated. I am slightly concerned that in this, all of this goings on, no one's thinking about the cycling rights and they could get. I mean, maybe, maybe we could come back to some sort of cycling only service like we had with GCN Plus. I don't have high hopes for it. And also we were talking about training and riders like doing crazy training this time of year in a way that we almost don't understand. But I sent you this. Jonas Oberhansen on Unox. So he's training outside. Like, he's posting pictures of like rides outside in the snow. And then he's supplementing that with. He did a post of this online. He did a five hours with ride like one evening, 188km. And his average power was 305 watts for those.
- [56:40]
B
Is he all right? Is he all right?
- [56:42]
A
And now he's a training camp.
- [56:44]
B
I think, I think He's, I mean, I think we're talking. This is an extreme guy, right? I mean, listen, great cyclist, super powerful.
- [56:53]
I would not want to be a cyclist and together be in a breakaway with Jonas Albert because you're.
- [57:00]
A
Yeah, he's not okay, by the way. Just answer anyone that gets in a breakaway at the Tour de France and never has a gap of more than a minute and a half and the stage is not okay.
- [57:09]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:12]
Yeah, man, it's. That's crazy. That's crazy. I saw that.
- [57:18]
Yeah, he does, yeah, he does these extra trainings on Zwift now to get kind of get back to, to his former level. And then I asking myself, you know, does he know we're still. It's the beginning of December.
- [57:33]
A
Yeah, he turned December.
- [57:34]
B
He's not going to race until in the next two months unless he goes to two down under.
- [57:41]
So. Yeah, I know, I know it's, it's a bit extreme in my opinion. But hey, maybe he needs that for his mind, you know? I don't know. Super strong guy.
- [57:52]
A
This is something. So we're also. Well, both of us are going to be on the Costa Blanca. Is that.
- [57:56]
B
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:57]
A
Next week you need to do the show together.
- [57:59]
B
We'll have for the first time an in person podcast between Spencer and myself all together. And so, and we'll, I guess we'll write a bit. I mean, to get. I mean if the problem is if.
- [58:13]
A
We ride together, then none of us, we're not gaining distance on each other.
- [58:17]
B
If you slow, if, if, if you slow down a bit, Spencer, then I let you ride with me.
- [58:22]
A
Otherwise know. But we will investigate this. Maybe we'll have to ask some professional trainers, like, what is exactly the methodology behind this? Feels a little, a little over the top to me, but I'm curious.
- [58:37]
B
I think that's pushing a bit too much. That's just crazy. It's crazy.
- [58:42]
A
It's crazy. But I'm excited to, to do next week's show in person, get some rides in. I think it's going to be a good time.
- [58:48]
B
Yeah. And you're going to be at the uae?
- [58:53]
A
Yeah, I'll be at the uae. I guess media day and investigating as much around there. I mean, I don't know how much we can say on the show, but there's just been a funny incident where I, I was being pretty critical of their bike or I, I'm going to ask them these questions. I had some questions about the bike and they were trying to then convince me that it was a great bike, but I wasn't checking the email they were sending, so they were just like, man, this guy's a jerk. He' responding to anything. And eventually they got in touch to me, in touch with me and promised to get me on one of their new Arrow bikes. And the easiest way to do it was just have me fly out and go to their training camp. So I will be there on the bike.
- [59:37]
B
Okay, good.
- [59:39]
A
All right, well, thanks, Johan, and we'll talk next week in person.
- [59:43]
B
Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Spencer.
- [59:45]
A
All right, bye.
- [60:59]
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