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- [00:06]
Lisa Terkers
This is Lisa Terkers and you're listening.
- [00:08]
Jim
To Therapy and Theology where we help you work through what you walk through. Dealing with the aftermath of someone else deeply disappointing us can leave us hurt, weighed down with heavy emotions and doubtful of God's justice. If you're wondering if it's possible to find the healing perspective you're longing for, I created a free resource just for you called when the Person who Hurt yout Got Away With Three Days to Moving Forward, and it pairs perfectly with today's episode topic. Together we'll have space to acknowledge our hurt, ask some hard questions, and find the healing perspectives we need. Just click the link in the show notes to get this resource for free today. Now onto the show.
- [00:58]
Lisa Terkers
Well, we said we were gonna continue this very important discussion on goodbyes. Now, we've talked a lot about good boundaries. And so if you've missed any part of that conversation, I wanna remind you that good boundaries are really what should be applied and kept consistently first. But when we hit this point where either the relationship becomes unsustainable because it's so unhealthy or possibly even unsafe, or we have to just accept a goodbye because the other person has literally walked away from us. Whatever the case may be, we need to know what to do. And I've said this before, but I've been a Christian for a really long time and I've been in countless Bible studies and lots of sermons. And yet I felt like this was so important for us to tackle because I've never before studying this for the writing of this book and the living of this message. I've never been taught about how to say goodbye. When I researched that word goodbye, I actually found that its origin was God be with ye, and then it was shortened to God and then B Y W E, and then it was eventually shortened to goodbye. But there's this notion that the goodbye was never supposed to be a harsh shoving away or a situation where it's like goodbye and good riddance. It really was in our heart. No matter how that relationship ends, being able to get to the place that we can say, I'm releasing this person because the relationship is not going to continue. And maybe even keeping our heart safe, soft or willing enough to heal in the direction of eventually being able to say, and God be with you. And that's hard, it's challenging, and I don't wanna minimize the emotional turmoil and trauma. So, Jim, I wanna turn to you first. When someone walks away from us, how can we really process this in a healthy way and Again, I just cannot emphasize enough because I personally know the heartbreak that comes along with this, that I don't want it to just seem like I'm asking this question and we have this quick protocol and then you're going to be healthy. It's quite a process.
- [03:36]
Joel
Well, the words, again, come right to the fore of this thing. When someone walks away from you, and so they are walking away. I do believe so many times in God's word that people walked away from God, the rich young ruler, which we've talked about before. And. And God didn't necessarily go chasing them down or at time to even turn them over to themselves. I think there's a template or a paradigm there, and we've said it so many times that when someone shows you who they are, believe them, and they are really walking away. But look, it's not just they're walking away. Listen to the words. They're walking away from you. They really are saying, I don't want to be in the relationship. So if they leave at that moment, what will change in them that they say, I think I want to come back, Which I see in the counseling world all the time. I want to come back. Well, what's different about when you wanted to walk away, go to a counselor somewhere and examine. I just, I've seen the light. I want to come back. Well, what light have you seen? You know, and so when someone is walking away and they don't try to come back to you, you can believe that as well, they're leaving you and the relationship.
- [04:40]
Lisa Terkers
And that doesn't necessarily even mean that this other person has always said, I'm walking away from you, or I'm leaving you. It could be that they're saying with their mouth, oh, no, I'm fully committed to you, or oh, no, like, I want to be with you, I wanna be in a relationship with you. But it's their actions or maybe their reactions or maybe even their attitude that says their heart is not connected to that process. Like, even if they physically stay, that doesn't mean that they are emotionally still there.
- [05:18]
Joel
I believe a lot of invested in the relationship. Invested is key because I believe a lot of people, like the old quote, some people die at age 25, they're just not buried to age 80. I believe a lot of people divorce. You know, we've legalized the term, and I get it, but it just means cutting, severing, stopping, cutting. I'm not doing this anymore. And there are a lot of people living a functional. I mean, in my experience, a Lot are living a functional divorce, but they stay together financially or they just settle or they have just a good enough Christian marriage. I mean, we're not want a divorce, but inside that's more of a mirage than a marriage. Or even in a relationship of dating, you're just going on and saying, is this relationship. Is this relationship growing and getting more intimate with each other, more close relationally, spiritually, or are we just stuck and people settle? Which I think is terrible in relationship. So divorce is this big word, and I get it. But there are people who are living in active divorce in relationship. And person says, I'm not going to leave. Or the fun one. I see. I guess it's not that fun, Joel, but is I'm not gonna take the low road. I'll wait and make you miserable enough or wait you out and finally maybe, or be unfaithful. Then you'll divorce me. And I go, yep, she divorced me. I have seen that a lot.
- [06:24]
Lisa Terkers
And it's not just in marriage relationships. It can be in friendships too. And I think sometimes we just feel so stuck that we don't know what to do. And so just ghosting the person or, you know, like in a friendship, just creating enough distance by not texting back, not agreeing to go somewhere. And so the goodbye just sort of happens. But when that happens, or really when any goodbye happens, we have to know how to process this in a healthy way. So, Jim and Joel, I want you to both weigh in on this because we, when we hit the spot in a relationship, we want to be able to pursue help for ourselves from here.
- [07:09]
Joel
Nice tee up on this thing. Because what I literally just thought when you said Jim and Joel to come in, is what we do in therapy and theology. What we're doing here in this bonus material is to go and examine it therapeutically, get some good wise counsel and say, and you use the word process. Let's process. Now, I use a strong term here. Let's autopsy this thing. What was in the relationship? Let's dissect it and say this and that. So I do that therapeutically and then to do it also theologically.
- [07:39]
Jim
Yeah, I think that's so good, Jim. One of the things that I often want us to point, that I often want to point out is in the New Testament, it's hidden a little bit because of the way the English works. But Paul often uses second person plural. He's when he. When we read you, and this is a tragedy of our individualistic society today, we read you and I think me. And yet When Paul is writing to the church in Ephesus or to the church in Corinth, and he's saying you, it's second person plural. It's y'all. It's you, all that are present. And I think that this is a really important perspective because there's a presumption that Paul has that says the Christian life is supposed to be meant in the context of community. And so how in the world are we gonna be able to process truly, authentically, genuinely, in a way that gives us insight at our blind spots? You know, that gives us insight at the areas that we might not have an expertise in if we don't have honest relationship with those that are around us. And another just, you know, side note on this is I think one of those red flags tends to be when we're in relationships with people where it's almost like. And, Jim, I'm curious what you think on this. That they almost take you out of the community that you're in and they put you into isolation. Classic. So that it's much harder for us to get a clean vision over what's actually happening in our lives. Are these verses of Scripture. Does the life that said publicly to live up to the character and image of Christ? Are those things being worked out? Well, it's much harder to see when I've been iced out of all of my other relationships and I'm now kind of secluded into isolation.
- [09:22]
Joel
Take a. You know, you gotta go old school here, but take a mound of charcoal for a good fire and just take one coal. They're hot coals. They're getting ready. Gonna have a nice barbecue. Take that one coal and sit it out over here. And everybody knows what happens with that. But if I can isolate you here, and that's what colts do, by the way, is a whole nother topic. But. But if I can isolate you here and say, is that person biblical? They don't know. They don't know our real story. They don't understand us. It's classic manipulation and control. So anyone watching this, be aware if that person in your life is trying to isolate you. No, don't go to therapy. Don't listen to Lisa Turkhorst. Don't read this like that. The person who's manipulating there, they'll be very, very clear with trying to pull you back. And everybody will feel it if they're just aware.
- [10:06]
Lisa Terkers
That's so helpful. So I think as we're trying to process in a healthy way, it's crucial that we don't isolate. It's also crucial that we, like you said, take an honest look at what is before us. And like you've told me many times, Jim, mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs.
- [10:27]
Joel
It's that last part that everybody tunes out on. It is not just a commitment to reality, as you said. Well, here it is at all cost. And what I see in relationships are. But what will it cost me? They revise the history back. If this person, even just a friend, walks out. Was our friendship real? What did it mean? How could they walk out? We've said if it's hysterical, it's historical. Where am I back in my life story where another friend or my parents divorced or whatever just to not obsess, but to take a look and say, where is this hitting me historically? I think usually it will hit me historically.
- [11:00]
Lisa Terkers
And one thing that I think I can tell that I'm processing this in a healthy way is when I acknowledge it's not just what happened to me. Obviously I need to acknowledge the pain. I need to feel the pain. I need to deal with the pain so that I can heal from the pain. But at some point I've got to stop focusing so much on all the details of what happened to me. And I've got to see there's something to be gained here if I will allow it to be a gain. And that is there is transferable wisdom that I have learned, I've gained experiential wisdom that can be transferred to other people. And when I'm more focused on the details, I think I'm stuck. I'm not really healing and processing this goodbye in a healthy way. But when I'm focused on moving forward and taking the experiential wisdom that I've gained and making it transferable wisdom, something that can help other people going through this. And when I'm more focused on seeing my pain turn into a purpose of helping others where I was, that's not only biblical, but also I think it's a great sign of healing. Okay, I have another question for you. In your counseling experience, Jim, how do you lead people through goodbyes in a way that don't allow them to be destroyed by someone else in the process or devastated to the point where they just cannot move on?
- [12:38]
Joel
Well, I like to say that prepositions matter. They certainly matter in the word of God. We've talked about this so many times before, but they matter in relationships. And you said, how do I get through this? And I help people in counseling work through things so that prepositions matter. Versus get me out of. Let me get over. How do I just, you know, get around this? Is to walk through it. And again, back to our theme of explore the facts and the impact of it.
- [13:02]
Lisa Terkers
And I love what you're sharing there. Because sometimes I feel like in my journey, my healing process has been long. And sometimes people will say to me, when are you just gonna get over this? And it's like, I get the sentiment. Cause they don't want me to get stuck and they don't want me to park on the. Just regurgitating the trauma like we just talked about before. But there's this sense, can you just get over this? And it's like, no. Because I'm a healthy person. I'm committed to staying healthy in my future. I'm not going to just get over this. I'm going to have to walk through this.
- [13:37]
Joel
And we've talked so many times before. I believe you have a book on this topic of forgiveness, that one of the ideas of forgiveness is to cancel the debt. And you've told the story many times that in my office where I had you lay out the cards, this is a fact of what happened. And folks, that's just a simple thing, right? And then what's the impact? And to go. If I'm going to eventually move to forgive the person, because forgiveness is really about me. It's about you forgiving the person so that you're not carrying around all this angst. So if I'm going to forgive them, I want to say, well, what is the debt? What does it cost me? And I think you don't want to do that just by yourself. Because you could, you could journal or just have your Bible good things. But to look and have someone say, what's the impact? What did it do to me? And even historically, where has this landed and impacted me on my own story, if I'm going to forgive. Fact and impact and look at your own life story. We've said it before. Where is this most recent goodbye? Where has it touched on where other goodbyes you've had to say. And I would say my friends, including the goodbye of a pet, the goodbye of a friend, you had to move away. Because often it will come back to these historical things and look and say, yeah, you don't have to upset, but get with a good counselor and say, you know, that is. It's triggering me back when I had to say goodbye here and here. Surround yourself with safe, trustworthy people. Back to Joel's thought here on Community that they've really Witnessed my life and said, hey, you're not crazy up in there. This makes sense. Or you've done about as far gone about as far as you can go. I've watched you be long suffering and do everything and someone. We all need a fair witness to our lives. That's friendship.
- [15:13]
Jim
Something that's important is there's something about longevity of relationships.
- [15:16]
Joel
That's right. Yes.
- [15:16]
Jim
You know, and being a part of a local church and fighting for that depth of relationship. Because if we keep just jumping from pockets of social groups and you've talked about this a lot, Jim, it's really easy to just present the best version of yourself for a period of time until you then shift to another place. And yet that is, again, antithetical to the way that God would desire for us to be a part of community.
- [15:42]
Joel
I think too, y'all, that just. It seems so simple. But accepting the other person where they are, that doesn't mean you're blessing them or approving mental health. Again, a commitment to that other person's reality at all costs. They've left, they're out in another relationship, they're living in sin, whatever. And I just can't believe. No, do believe and say, you know, what you see is what you see. They are doing what they're doing and accept it now. Deal with the pain and hurt that they're rejecting you. Or they maybe even moved on to another relationship. And then just be aware too inside that there is a word we use. And sometimes it can be a little harsh. I'm not using it that way here, but it's called shopping for pain. Are you going out on the other person, the friend, family member, like a sibling or somebody or a spouse, partner, whatever you want to call it, that they have gone out and they're saying things about you that are wrong or how they're shopping for pain. Let me go on their social media feeds or get someone else I know who can get on because they've blocked me. And you're just shopping for pain. Seeing if they're saying or posting vague things. I know that's about me. I've watched people just do that. And it's like, I get why. Because you're shaming yourself there. And shame's an always. Shame is always an attempted antidote to pain. It's just cutting, going what feels good for the moment.
- [16:57]
Lisa Terkers
Yeah, I think that is a big one. Is really going and trying to interpret how they must be feeling right now or how they must be thinking about me right now or covertly posting this because they wanna get some message to me. And that may or may not be true. But regardless of what they're doing, if you don't see it and you don't receive it, then it cannot have the full impact on you that it does when you engage with it. Right. But I think part of what's really hard is we can get the impression that this other person who maybe did us wrong in the relationship or maybe betrayed us in some way, that they are now just free and out enjoying.
- [17:46]
Joel
Their life, having a time of their.
- [17:47]
Lisa Terkers
Lives, having a time of their life. And it feels so unjust. I'm sitting here grieving and they're out there sinning and feeling great in their sin. And I tried to do the right thing and I'm feeling awful in doing the right thing. And there can just be this sin of, I need justice here. This is so wrong. Right. And I think we have to remember in order to make peace and be able to move on, that sin always comes as a package deal with consequences. No matter what they look like, if they are living in active sin, they have unleashed the consequences of that sin in their life. I know when I sin, I unleash consequences, right?
- [18:35]
Joel
Yes.
- [18:36]
Lisa Terkers
And so even if we don't see the consequences, even if we have no clue what those consequences are, we can absolutely know that God says to release this person to him, that vengeance is his. And so not only will God eventually address this with equal measures of justice and mercy, but also this sin itself contains a punitive aspect of it. That sin is fun for a season and then it is not.
- [19:09]
Joel
And what's the. You've already gone here. But it really hits me again, afresh and anew, the both therapeutic therapy side and the theological side of God be with ye of goodbye. My goodbye is not, get out of here, you rascal. I hope God knocks you down. But it is literally, you reap what you sow and I'm taking you off of my hook and what I want and all the injustice and demand and all that, and delivering you in my mind, God, I hand them over to you. May God you be with them and they will be with you. And God is up for you in your own timing, in your own way. When I don't see it. When are you gonna get them, God? David did that in the imprecatory psalms, other places. But goodbye as God be with you. You're in God's hands now. See, I don't have to just give them to. They abandoned me and left. No, I'm Saying no, literally, God, they're yours.
- [20:00]
Jim
And here's a thought. What if the goodbye is a declaration of our belief and trust in God's sovereignty?
- [20:07]
Joel
Yes. I love it.
- [20:08]
Lisa Terkers
That's so good.
- [20:09]
Jim
Joel, Our goodbye is actually the evidence that God be with ye of saying, you know what, what I believe to be true in my mind, in my heart, I'm gonna show through my actions, because I trust God, that you are sovereign. And Lisa, you. I think one of the questions we have to really consider is whose justice do we want? And Joel, just speaking. I want my justice.
- [20:34]
Joel
I want mine a lot.
- [20:35]
Jim
I want it to look like the way that I, you know, it impacted me personally. And yet the story of the good news of the gospel is a loving and gracious and kind God that has a way of working out all things together for good of those that love him. And so when we can say, God be with you, we can trust that in God's goodness and his authority and his power and in his control, he will deal out the right amount of justice, the right amount of consequence as is necessary. And honestly, that should give us a sense of deep relief because we no longer have to carry that burden on us.
- [21:16]
Lisa Terkers
And when we feel that deep angst, because I felt it, you know, I know all of this. And yet sometimes even recently, even after writing all of this, studying all of this, doing all of this, I can still lay in my bed at night when I'm absolutely alone, and I feel the deep, deep angst of the unfairness. And that's when I have to say, I am releasing this other person. And that's not acknowledging that now I'm okay with what they did because it's okay for me to never be okay with what they did, or to agree with what they did, or to ever say it's not a big deal, because it is a big deal. But in that release, it's me saying, I have suffered enough because of what that other person has done. Jim, let's end today on a prayer that you like to declare. And it's a little bit of a, I think a shift of the serenity prayer. And I really liked it when you shared it with me. So do you mind sharing with me that as we wrap up today?
- [22:21]
Joel
I will. And I'm going to have a handoff from you before I get to that. This is only going to take a second. I say to people, if you don't grieve, the pain won't leave. And with that is as I am there. And I say, God, I want to hand you this person in my mind, I want to hand them off to you. I don't believe you will ever. I believe. I don't believe experiencely you'll ever hand your grief over to God until you first hand that person over to God. Therapeutically and both theologically and so the serenity prayer that has been used in certain programs with a bit of a twist, says this. God grant me. I love that it's God giving me this. God grant me and I will just show you how. I pray this prayer every day of my life. I hold my hands open, God grant me. So it's me touching hands with God. God grant me the serenity. And I just feel that in my body to accept in this prayer and release my hands. I do this in my prayer closet to accept the people I cannot change. I need now the courage, strength, God, to change the one I can change and the wisdom I do. Head to heart. Head to heart and the wisdom to know surrender. The only person I can really change is. Is me.
- [23:42]
Lisa Terkers
So powerful. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Joel.