Podcast Summary

Podcast: Therapy and Theology
Episode: S10 E2 | Is Infidelity the Only Reason for Divorce?
Host: Lysa TerKeurst (with Jim Cress & Dr. Joel Muddamalle)
Date: September 18, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Therapy and Theology explores one of the most difficult and misunderstood questions in Christian circles: Is infidelity the only biblical reason for divorce? Utilizing a rich discussion that intertwines biblical exegesis, ancient context, counseling perspectives, and lived experience, Lysa TerKeurst, counselor Jim Cress, and theologian Dr. Joel Muddamalle break down Jesus’s teachings on marriage and divorce found in Matthew 19, while affirming both the sacredness of marriage and the need for compassionate support for those walking through divorce.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Weight of Jesus’ Words and Cultural Context

Timestamps: 03:12–09:36

• The episode focuses on Matthew 19, where Jesus is questioned by the Pharisees about the grounds for divorce.

• Dr. Joel frames the conversation:
  "We're talking about Jesus' words here, the red letter Jesus." (03:23)

• The context: Religious elites are trying to test Jesus with a controversial question—can a man divorce his wife for any reason?

• Dr. Joel highlights that understanding Jesus’ answer requires historical and scriptural context, especially the debate between the Hillel and Shammai schools of rabbinic thought regarding Deuteronomy 24's “indecency.”

  Quote:
  "Before we jump into this, I just want to give a disclaimer... [these] conversations that you are hearing, that you know, that they come from a place of deep humility... Our goal is to bring light to the truth of the scriptures and to show that there is absolutely hope in the gospel." — Dr. Joel (03:25)

2. Jesus' Method: Elevating Marriage and Exposing Motives

Timestamps: 07:46–10:49

• Jesus responds to the Pharisees, not by debating their legal technicalities, but by reframing the conversation to God’s intention for marriage—echoing Genesis about becoming “one flesh.”
• Notable moment:
  "Haven't you read...?" (08:33) — Jesus’ subtle but pointed challenge to experts who had the Scriptures memorized.
• Lysa notes the deliberate shift:
  "It's like full stop, isn't it?" (08:33)
• Dr. Joel connects this to how we use context in everyday conversation (the “Jags” analogy, 11:11–12:42), illustrating how Jesus’ audience would have filled in the deeper meanings and references due to their cultural and scriptural background.

3. Old Testament Grounds and New Testament Clarification

Timestamps: 12:42–21:41

• The debate in Jesus’s day:

  • Hillel School: Allowed divorce for almost any reason (“any matter of indecency”—even burning a meal).
  • Shammai School: Restricted it to cases of sexual immorality (adultery).

• Jesus’s response (Matthew 19:9) elevates God’s intent for marriage while recognizing the reality of human hardness of heart:
  "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But it was not like that in the beginning." (13:36)

• Jesus also redefines adultery not just as a woman’s potential offense but holds men equally accountable—a radical shift in a patriarchal society.

  Quote:
  "Jesus is raising the level of responsibility of the man ... If a man sleeps with someone other than his wife, it's adultery." — Dr. Joel (18:38)

• Importantly, Jesus’ mention of “sexual immorality” would have evoked not only adultery but broader concepts from Exodus 21:10 (neglect of food, clothing, and marital rights) and Deuteronomy 24:1 (indecency)—core understandings for his audience.

4. Expanding Understanding of ‘Biblical Grounds’ for Divorce

Timestamps: 21:41–24:49

• Dr. Joel argues that Jesus’ original hearers would have inferred additional valid grounds for divorce—including severe neglect and abandonment, based on prevailing Jewish understanding and marriage contracts of the era.

  Notable Quote (23:18): "The original hearer would not have heard [Jesus’ words] as saying divorce is restricted only to cases of adultery. They would have filled in the gaps and recognized ... other categories of valid grounds." — Dr. Joel

• The ancient certificates of divorce provided for protection and financial safety, especially for women—a detail often lost in modern interpretations.

5. Pastoral and Therapeutic Care for Divorce and Shame

Timestamps: 24:49–29:32

• Lysa raises the stigma and shame many (especially women) experience, even when enduring abuse, neglect, or non-physical forms of marital harm.

• Jim Cress offers insight into caring for those shamed by others for divorce, especially in churches:

  Quote:
  "Often it's like no one hardly ever listens to me. ... I hear you, I understand you, I believe you. ... I want to explore the narratives of shame. We've said often, if it's hysterical, it can be historical." — Jim Cress (26:31)

• Jim distinguishes between self-hatred, social hatred, and even ‘satanic hatred’ (accusation from the enemy) in the shame people experience. He emphasizes the importance of both shame eradication and shame resilience.

6. Ancient Customs: Certificate of Divorce and Dowry

Timestamps: 30:47–35:11

• Dr. Joel explains that the certificate of divorce and dowry functioned as a protection mechanism for women in ancient Israel—not only permitting remarriage but also providing financial support.

• In a patriarchal context, this was radically protective and countercultural.

  Quote:
  "The certificate of divorce ... was something unique that God establishes ... to protect women, to create a safety net for them in situations of desperation and despair." — Dr. Joel (20:05)

• He notes that God’s own metaphorical divorce from Israel (Ezekiel 16) uses the same language, reinforcing the seriousness and compassion in these biblical structures.

7. Final Thoughts and Humility in Theological Interpretation

Timestamps: 35:12–36:19

• Dr. Joel closes with humility, encouraging listeners to wrestle with scripture, consult others, and avoid simplistic conclusions:

  Quote:
  "I am trying to present the very best evidence and scholarship ... This is an ongoing conversation, but one that ... is so important because the cost is the daughters of God ... we've seen exponentially, at least in our ministry, the impact this is having on women." (35:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Jesus’ humor and method:
  "Haven’t you read?" (08:33, Dr. Joel imitating Jesus, after Pharisees ask an obvious question)
• On biblical interpretation:
  "We want to have the Bible open to go to it as our source of truth ... put aside what you think you know, just so that we can deal honestly with the Scriptures." — Dr. Joel (03:52)
• On shame and support:
  "I hear you, I understand you, I believe you." — Jim Cress (26:31)
• On context and clarity:
  "Jesus elevates women. He loves women. He wants to protect women. Jesus cares deeply about the ideal of marriage, but he wants marriage ... to honor him, that honors the church, and is not destructive to the two image bearers." — Dr. Joel (24:39)

Segment Timestamps

• Introduction/context: 00:01–03:12
• Jesus and Matthew 19 exposition: 03:12–15:04
• Rabbinic debate and ancient context: 15:04–21:41
• Expanded divorce grounds and ancient law: 21:41–24:49
• Shame, therapy, and pastoral care: 24:49–29:32
• Certificate of divorce, dowry, and protective customs: 30:47–35:11
• Final reflections and humility in interpretation: 35:12–36:19

Conclusion

This episode offers a careful, contextually grounded, and pastorally sensitive exploration of whether infidelity is the only biblical reason for divorce. The team affirms the holiness of marriage while compassionately acknowledging the complexities and pain many experience—especially when faced with abuse or neglect. Listeners are encouraged to study the scriptures, seek wise counsel, and approach both marriage and divorce with humility and care for the most vulnerable.