← Therapy and Theology
Loading summary
Transcript67 lines
- [00:01]
A
Proverbs 31 is proud to partner with Convoy of Hope to sponsor this season of therapy and theology. For over 30 years, Convoy of Hope has helped vulnerable communities around the world, and empowering women and girls is a key part of that mission. Convoy of Hope partners with women so that they can start their own businesses to better support themselves and their families. They also help young girls realize their worth and find their voice because when women are empowered, entire communities are transformed. You can empower women and girls today by visiting convoy.org p31 that's convoy.org p31 hi friends. Welcome back to the Therapy and Theology Podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries. We're here to help you work through what you walk through, and I'm so glad that you're back listening today. I'm your host Shay Hill, and I'm super excited about today's conversation. If you listen to episode one, you this season we're diving into honest conversations about the painful reality of divorce, and each conversation is inspired by an upcoming book releasing in November called Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, written by Lisa, Dr. Joel Mutamale and Jim Kress. Whether you've experienced divorce yourself, been impacted by it and your family, or you're a Christian with a lot of questions, I hope today's conversation will give you truth to hold on to and a lot to think about. Dr. Joel is going to help us dive into the New Testament today as we look at some commonly debated or or even misunderstood scriptures from Jesus on marriage and divorce. So this may be an episode that you want to take notes on. Also, if you'd like to receive new episodes delivered straight to your inbox, there's a link in our show Notes where you can subscribe. All right, let's get into today's conversation.
- [01:50]
B
I remember the first time that I had a doctor's appointment after my divorce. I was filling out the intake form and it got to the part where they were asking for an emergency contact and I sat there in that doctor's office and wept. It was a moment that to everyone else, filling out an intake form was so completely normal. But for me, it was the first time I realized this divorce meant I'd lost my person. Like really, really lost my person, and I didn't know who to put down as my emergency contact. Today's subject is hard. Just like the first episode in the series, we're tackling divorce again. And this these episodes are not just for those of you who are walking or who have walked through a divorce. It's Also for any Christian or anyone that knows someone that has gone through a divorce. So I want us to lean in because in the last episode, we tackled an Old Testament verse from Malachi. In this episode, I want to go to the New Testament verses that can also be confusing around the subject matter of divorce. And of course, joining me is my amazing therapy friend Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamalle.
- [03:13]
C
That's right. Well, I'm really excited for this one. And honestly, I feel a little bit of the weight of this conversation because today we're looking at Matthew, chapter 19, and the last episode we looked at some Old Testament passages. We'll do that a little bit as well this time. But the reason why it's a little more weighty for me on this is because. Because we're talking about Jesus words here. This is an actual encounter that Jesus has where Jesus talks about this topic. And in some of your Bibles, you might have the red letters kind of scenario happening. And so this is like the red letter Jesus that we've got going on. Before we jump into this, I just want to give a disclaimer from our hearts, from Jim's heart, from Lisa's, and from mine. I just want to read something that we've kind of put together. I just want to make sure that these conversations that you are hearing, that you know, that they come from a place of deep humility. You see, the three of us co authored a book together, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. And it's not meant to glorify divorce in any way. We love healthy marriages. We believe in the sacredness of marriage. We believe in God's ideal for marriage. But we also feel a responsibility to help those who find themselves on the other side of a divorce, or maybe even walking through it, because of the devastation of the heartbreak that it causes, both for the individuals and for the families. And so the enemy absolutely wants to tear families apart in every way that he can, and he uses this through shame and through loneliness. But what we want to do is to bring light to the truth of the scriptures and to show that there is absolutely hope in the gospel and there's hope for your life as well. Before we get started today, I want to invite you all to a theology study day with Joel, Lisa and Jim. And typically Lisa and Jim, when we do this, I kind of have our friends from Proverbs or Lisa, your personal friends, or some of my friends that will come. And I want to ask kind of three things of them, and I want to ask these three things of all of you that are joining us today. So two of them are going to be super simple. The third one is going to be simple. But as my friend Jim Kress often says, it is far from being simplistic. So here's the first one. We just want to approach this with open Bibles. And so if you're listening to this, keep listening, but you might want to come back to it and have a Bible open. And if you're in a place where you can actually open your Bibles and take some notes, I would highly encourage you, because we want to have the Bible open to go to it as our source of truth. The second thing is we need honest hearts. We need to approach the text with honesty. God can handle our honesty. And then the third thing is connected to the first two. And so I'm going to say it this way for a moment, not forever. For a moment, I'm going to ask you to intentionally put aside all the things that you think think you know about the Bible. You're panicking at this moment. Wait a minute, Joel. I've been following Jesus for so many years. Or maybe you're a brand new Christian, or maybe you're not a Christian at all and you're like, what is going on with the Bible and Jesus and this topic of divorce? For a moment, not forever. I'd love for you to put aside what you think you know, just so that we can deal honestly with the Scriptures. And then when we get done, man, bring all the things that you brought and hold it against what we're talking about today and pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give you some conviction and some guidance in this area and go to your local pastor, some friends that I'm gonna say this way. It's very important that love Jesus more than they love you. That's right. You want to go to some friends that love Jesus more than they love you for some godly wisdom. So let's jump to Matthew chapter 19. And once again, Lysa, you've always taught me to bring the humanity of the text into it. And I'm excited because there's a little bit of humor, I think, that's going on here. So In Matthew, chapter 19 says this. When Jesus had finished saying these things, he departed from Galilee and went to the region of Judea. Across the Jordan, large crowds followed him. In other words, Jesus has kind of gone viral in the, in the area, and people are just following him. Large crowds follow him and he healed them. Some Pharisees approached him to test him. If we had music Going on right now, it'd be like the dun dun dun. And you'd feel that. And they asked, is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on any grounds? I don't know about you, but if I'm Jesus and I'm on a long walk, I just got done healing a whole bunch of people. I've got mess that I'm dealing with. I've got disciples that aren't figuring out. And now all of a sudden I've got the religious rulers, the elites. Like these guys came from Princeton and Harvard and they are the top notch intellectuals. And I'm getting stuck with this question. I'm a little frustrated.
- [07:47]
B
And also being Jesus, he knew the motivation of their heart, which would then complicate his 100%.
- [07:53]
C
And it says that the text lets us know the goal is to test Jesus. Now, Lisa, one of the things that I just over. We've known each other for almost 12 years in ministry for almost 10 years together. And you often say that you have the curse of the comeback. Listen, y', all, if you have not heard an LT comeback, it's wild, it's amazing. Elise could probably be full time comedian someday and just do all kinds of comebacks. And Lisa, I just want you to know you have something in common with Jesus. Because I think that Jesus is so funny and so hilarious. And if you're like, Joel, I need you to prove it. Watch this. This is the first thing that Jesus says to this question. He says, haven't you read Stop?
- [08:33]
D
It's like full stop, isn't it?
- [08:35]
C
Well, think about who he's talking to. He's talking to the people that of.
- [08:38]
B
Course they read it, they've memorized it.
- [08:40]
C
That's what I'm saying. This is like the most well read, learned people of all time. And Jesus is like, by the way, have you read. Which is like this passive aggressive jab, I think, at them, you know, except the holy one. Except a holy one. A holy passive aggressive jab. Because it's Jesus. And he goes, haven't you read? And he replied that he who created them in the beginning made them male and female. Okay, Some of you are like, jesus, are you doing like a Jesus juke over here? They're asking one question. But now you're going to. Now everything Jesus does is incredibly intentional. And Jesus is about to give us a master class in biblical theology, right? So Jesus is going to pull from the Old Testament and then he's going to bring clarification to a modern situation. In a sense, this is exactly what we're trying to do today, we're doing a biblical theology. We're going to pull from the principles of the Old Testament so we can understand what the New Testament is trying to say, so we can apply it appropriately to our context today.
- [09:37]
B
Because that's part of the beauty of God's word. You know, it's like scripture affirms scripture. And so we can toggle between the Old Testament and the New Testament. And Jesus quotes the Old Testament so much. And the people at the time would have had an understanding that the Pharisees asking this question definitely would have had an understanding. Not only an understanding, but they would have memorized exactly what Jesus is referring to here.
- [10:02]
C
100%.
- [10:02]
D
Is it safe to say? Seriously? I know it's a gym ism thing. It's my mind live listening to this. I'm going for every gotcha question. Jesus is going to get you. I mean, it's just like he gets in and there are these gotcha questions. I'm on the edge of my seat following you, and he's like, no.
- [10:18]
C
Yeah. It feels a little bit like Houdini, you know, like, you think that he's like, wrapped up, can't get out.
- [10:24]
D
The Pharisees and others going, we weren't talking about that.
- [10:27]
C
What are you doing? 100%. And they're probably a little annoyed with him, right? So here's what happens. He says in the beginning, which is like, wait a minute, Genesis. God made them male and female. And now in their context, because they're so learned, they're going, Genesis 1, 26 and 27. Wait a minute. Didn't we just. Previous episode, we just talked about this, huh?
- [10:47]
B
Saying that they're image bearers of Christ.
- [10:49]
C
Okay, so you just did least. This is why this is so brilliant. And I love doing theology within the context of community, by the way. We should always do theology in the context of community. That's the ideal place for theology to be done. What is theology? Thinking God's thoughts after him. You just did it. So let's just do a thought experiment. Okay? Lisa, you and I have been friends for a long time. Jim, you and I now have been friends for a long time. Jimbo, you know that I'm a fantasy football guy, right?
- [11:11]
D
You are indeed.
- [11:12]
C
Fantasy season is coming, right?
- [11:13]
D
Right.
- [11:14]
C
I am deep in research. I've got my mock drafts. Like, we're ready. Okay. So Lis, I text you, right? You and Chaz and the same Haley. I really hope the Jags are okay. So when I say that, how do you receive that?
- [11:30]
B
I think about the football team. Jaguars.
- [11:33]
C
That's right. Now, how would you make that connection? How would you know that I'm talking about that?
- [11:38]
B
Because I know the context of what you're referring to because you're in fantasy football season, but also because I live in Jacksonville.
- [11:47]
C
That's right. And your husband just happens to be Jaguar fan. Right. Okay. So often what ends up happening is in season. I'll watch the Jacksonville Jaguars. I will try to pick a player on the Jaguar just because there's a relational connection, you know? And when they play really well, I'll text Chaz, man, that was a great game. And if they're not playing so great, I'll text Chaz. Oof. That was tough. Right. So there's context around this, and you can pull from that modern context. Now, what's fascinating is imagine that you're actually in a different scenario. You're actually a zookeeper. Okay. You're a zookeeper. All right. And I say, lisa, how are the Jags doing?
- [12:25]
B
Then I would say, you know what? I'm gonna have to go over and look where the jaguar animals are and make sure they're okay.
- [12:33]
D
Okay.
- [12:33]
C
Look at the context.
- [12:34]
D
What if you were a car dealership owner.
- [12:36]
C
That's right.
- [12:37]
D
Yet of a third understanding.
- [12:39]
C
Yeah.
- [12:39]
B
And you would probably say, what. What year, what model?
- [12:42]
C
Okay. So I just want to point this out to all of you, that we actually do all of this in real time, consistently. We do it really, really well. And so what we're trying to do is we to retrieve what Jesus and the people who are listening to Jesus at that time, what they're doing. And so when Jesus starts with having to read, and then he goes, in the beginning, they created them, male and female. Notice Jesus doesn't have to say in the likeness of God. Of course, they're going to know that their brain is going right to. That they're understanding the entire context of it. And he also said, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate. And then it's really interesting. Verse 7. Why then. So this is the Pharisees. They asked him, did Moses command us to give divorce papers and to send her away? So notice the first thing that Jesus does, very technical, very important, he elevates the ideal of marriage. But even as he elevates the ideal of marriage, and if you haven't watched Episode one. I highly encourage you to watch episode one. That in marriage you've got two image bearers of God that were given that image prior to they even came together. That was what they had individually. And these two image bearers come together to honor the Lord in a covenant marriage. And then what the Pharisees and Sadducees, the Pharisees are doing here is they then question, well, did Moses command us to give divorce papers and to send her away? And then verse eight, it says he told them, moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But it was not like that. The beginning. It's really interesting here that when Jesus is kind of cornered and essentially what the Pharisees are trying to do is they're trying to trap Jesus. Jesus actually responds by saying, your initial interpretation is actually already off base. You see, they are actually stepping into an already known and heavily debated conversation that comes from Deuteronomy 24, verses 1 through 4. And it's the issue of the Hebrew word. Word is arvat dvar, which just means indecency. Right. And so around this time, there are these two schools of thoughts. You've got the Hillel school of thought, and then you've got the Shammai school of thought.
- [15:05]
B
And Joel, when you say school of thought, you're talking about, like a group of people, right?
- [15:10]
C
Yes.
- [15:10]
B
So there's this group that has one perspective of the text and a group.
- [15:14]
C
That has another perspective, and there's some legitimacy to it they're pulling from. I mean, it's kind of like doctrines today. Like, we've got secondary and tertiary things that we would look at and say, well, I kind of have a conviction about this in terms of the nature of God and salvation. Or maybe somebody else has a different view. Now, we would all believe in the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus, but we've got different views of the interpretation of that. And this is nothing new. This is happening at the time of Jesus. Now, this matter actually is significant because it plays into the question of divorce and how Jesus understands it. So basically, what the Pharisees want is the Pharisees want to kind of corner Jesus and to make him pick between one of the camps, because. Exactly. Depending on how Jesus responds, it would kind of like show his hand on where he is. So I think this is important. I'm going to read it to you just because.
- [16:04]
B
And also because they want to know who's right. Yeah, that's such a human thing.
- [16:08]
C
Such a human thing. So the Hillel school of thought recognized that the Hebrew phrase ervat devar could refer to either a matter or an indecency. So they came up with an understanding that for any matter of indecency, a divorce could take place. So an extreme example found in rabbinic writing is that a husband could get a divorce if his wife spoiled a dish.
- [16:33]
D
That's just wacky.
- [16:34]
C
Okay? As you can imagine, there's an issue here. The Shammai school of thought, on the other hand, viewed divorce as viable only as a result of indecency displayed in adultery. So Jesus actually, he recognizes the trap that's set in front of him, and he realizes that the Pharisees really want him to make a ch between one of these two. And the Pharisees are trying to test him. But notice the first thing that Jesus does. Jesus does, and he corrects them. He goes, well, actually, Moses did not command for you to get a divorce. He permitted it. So what he's actually starting with is saying, by the way, divorce doesn't have to be mandatory. There is this sense that you should pursue reconciliation if possible. If there's repentance. I mean, all those things would be playing in the back of the mind of these individuals. The other thing that's actually happening here is that Jesus is raising the level of responsibility of the man. This is actually kind of a wild thing. So again, I just. Because I don't want to get the details wrong, the Pharisees approach him to test him. This is Matthew 19:3. Jesus starts the discussion about marriage and divorce, and he gives a side tangent. He says, you know, haven't you read? And then he goes to God's ideal for marriage. So the concept of marriage at the time of Jesus was intended to be monogamous, not. Not polygamous. Right. So married to one woman. But there's an important clarifier. In the ancient world, polygamy was acceptable, but it was going out of favor. But in this society, adultery. So wild, y', all, adultery was always an offense against the husband. That's it. So adultery would not be an offense against the woman. So it referred to the sexual unfaithfulness of a married woman. A man could have sex with an unmarried woman, and in doing so, technically did not commit adultery. Commit fornication, but not adultery. Notice what Jesus does. Jesus won't stand for this.
- [18:38]
B
Yeah.
- [18:38]
C
The implication in his reply is the widening of the context of adultery, meaning that if a man sleeps with someone other than his wife, it's adultery. In the same way, if a woman commits sexual infidelity against her husband. It's adultery. So once again, Jesus is actually pulling back to Genesis and raising the level of responsibility. Sometimes we read this and it's like, well, Jesus, what are you doing? But if you're in the ancient world and you're a dude, you're like, did he just say that? Did he just call me the carpet? Like, wait a minute, I have an expectation. And that's what's happening. And then he goes to this idea that, you know, I tell you, verse nine, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery. The phrases that Jesus is quoting and using here come from a couple Old testament passages. Deuteronomy 24:1, which says that he may write her a divorce certificate and hand it to her and send her away from his house. And what's super fascinating about the divorce certificate is in the ancient world, all of the nations around the people of Israel, think about the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Philistines, you know, all the ites that lived in that area, there was not found a thing called a certificate of divorce. This was something unique that God establishes.
- [20:05]
B
For his people in Israel.
- [20:07]
C
Yeah, and the reason why he establishes it is to purchase, protect women. He does it to create a safety net for them in the situation of real desperation and despair. And so what Jesus is doing is once again, he's echoing back. He's calling back to this passage in Deuteronomy. And not only there, but Jesus also is pulling from Exodus 21:10. And so this is one of those things that from a cultural kind of context standpoint, I think it's really important that we have. So let's just take a quick, quick look at Exodus 21:10. And it's a passage about how a husband should treat a wife. And in this situation, there are three categories that are stated in Exodus 21, starting in verse 10. It says this. If he takes an additional wife, he must not reduce. Look at the three things, the food, the clothing, or the marital rights of the wife of the first wife. And if he does not do these three things for her, she may leave free of charge without any payment. So you have these three categories, food, clothing, and marital rights, all underneath the context of abandonment. And this was well known of the time period. How do we know this is well known in the time period? There are archaeological digs right now from Masada and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the caves where they're found. And guess what fascinating. They found marriage certificates. And guess what verse is quoted on all of the Marriage certificates. That verse right there.
- [21:42]
B
Wow.
- [21:42]
C
So much so that the rabbis take this idea and they kind of extrapolate and they make it the basis by which the society is supposed to be run. The expectation of the husband and the wife is that each would have a part to play. And the husband's role is to provide food, to provide clothing, and marital rights. This could be the intimacy of sex. It could also be just love, the emotional presence that is required in a marri. And this is the context and the emotional safety and the emotional safety of marriage. And so, again, you know, some of you might now think, well, it's clear, Joel, that Jesus clarifies and he says that the only reason for divorce is in the context of adultery. But I think we need to really think about this for a second and remember that Jesus is intentionally pulling from an Old Testament context in the same way that he did with Genesis 1:25, 26:6 he's also doing here. And so the people who are listening and receiving these words, they would, in their mind, when they hear this phrase, they would instantly think, oh, yeah, adultery, which is the trigger word to say, also, we've got emotional, material and physical neglect. The original hearer would not have heard this as a saying. Divorce is restricted only to cases of adultery. They would have filled in the gaps and recognized that Jesus, of course, had in mind other categories of valid grounds. Now, again, I want to just be honest here, that this is the position and the view that, you know, after a lot of research and study, and I'm pulling a lot from an ancient near Eastern scholar, Dr. Instone Brewer, who I'm going to quote here, Instone Brewer, who is the one who actually went through all the records and the manuscripts and everything, he says this contemporary Jews would have mentally added something like this exception, whether it was present or not. They would have either added, except for valid grounds, if they were thinking of divorce in general, or except for indecency, if they were just thinking about Deuteronomy 24:1. Now, there are other views and there's other scholars that might debate this, but I think once again, with therapy and theology, we don't want to tell you what to think. We want to give you a lot to think about. And I'm really hopeful that as you consider the cultural context of this, you would actually see a couple very important things about Jesus, regardless of where you land on the details. And here are the things Jesus elevates women. He loves women. He wants to protect women. Jesus cares deeply about the ideal of marriage, but he wants marriage to be presented in a way that honors him, that honors the church, and is not destructive to the two image bearers that come into that marriage. And then finally, I think the third thing is that Jesus wants. And we're pulling from that first episode. Jesus really does want you and I to live up to that status that we've been given as image bearers of God. And part of that is how we love one another within the context of marriage, because it's actually directly pointing to Jesus and his love for the church.
- [24:49]
B
You know, there's so much shame that can happen sometimes, Jim, around divorce. And especially if someone has gone through a lot of. Experienced a lot of destructive realities within the context of their marriage. And just for the point of our discussion, I'll say a woman. But I do understand sometimes men are on the receiving end of the destructive behaviors of their wife. So this includes both going back and forth. But just for the sake of clarity and conversation, what is it like to sit across from a woman and, you know, the destructive behaviors of her husband? More than like, it's just over. There's so much evidence that she has biblical grounds for divorce or that she, according to the scriptures, should not carry shame around her divorce. And yet she still has shame because other people say, well, like, with abuse, did you have a bruise?
- [25:55]
D
Yeah.
- [25:55]
A
Really?
- [25:56]
D
Yeah.
- [25:57]
B
Okay, well, did he have an affair? You know, and that can be extremely hurtful and heap shame on the woman who has experienced some really horrific things and she's experienced emotional abandonment, she's experienced verbal abuse, she's experienced sexual abuse, she's experienced emotional abandonment, all of those things. And so what is it like to sit across from her and. And just care tenderly for her heart? Like, what do you say to a woman who's filled with shame like that?
- [26:32]
D
Great question. Before I say anything, I listen. Listen and silent. Have the exact same letters. And when she would be at a pause or be done with some of the narrative, I'm going to say lean in instead of leaning back. Is there more? But you all can do that. You can do that with people in your conversation. Often it's like no one hardly ever listens to me. Right. My little hub principle that I use there is H, I, I hear you. It's not meant to be clever. I hear you, you, I understand you, or I really want to understand you. And B, I believe you, which we've said too many times that when you looked at me one time and, and have said here in the podcast, one of the most helpful things I Did was to say, I believe you. That was not a technique. So in that with the Shane I talk to people often. I'm not worried about knowing someone's motive, but their modus operandi, the method of operating. And I find Joel and Lisa right back into that New Testament context. You just took us through that. Whether it's their motive or not, they are coming with an operating system, the modus operandi of a Pharisee. It doesn't mean that's their motive, but they will be coming. People are down on what they're not up on. So people outside. I do shame primarily, which I've said here, and it's in the divorce book, self hatred at my expense. I literally cannot just do what others are doing but myself, I will almost condemn. Romans 8:1. There's no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I hate myself. At one level we got to explore. That's one of the things I'll explore at my expense. Self hatred at my expense. Because with that, I want to explore at my expense what's it costing me. I also do social hatred. S H A M E at my expense. I just feel, and sometimes it's accurate, that there are people out there, even in the church or people close to me, or yes, even family or friends feel like they have hatred or condemnation. And then of course, the great accuser of people, Satan, Satanic hatred at my expense. So with that, I want to explore the narratives of shame. We've said often, if it's hysterical, it can be historical and say, where else has shame been in your life? And I will try to help them with shame eradication. But far more I want to see shame resiliency, my word of intentional resiliency. It's not just regular resiliency. It's intentional that I see this in the midst of the shame, or the voices are many, like the woman in the text, taken in adultery. Of course the dude's not there. Right. It kind of ties into what you were saying. But to look and say, how do I rise strong in the midst of these internal accusations or external ones, and really help them walk through it. But the big thing to start with is just tell me the story. Jesus was so good with that. Tell me the narrative.
- [29:33]
A
Hey, therapy and theology friends, this is Shea. Just a quick pause to tell you more about our partner for this season of therapy and theology, Convoy of hope. For over 30 years, Convoy of Hope has helped vulnerable communities around the world. And empowering women and girls is a key part of that mission. As a therapy and theology listener, you're probably familiar with the conversations Lisa, Jim and Joel have had about why no one wins when a woman is devalued. The Bible has so much to say about this, but the problem is actually bigger than us. That's why we're so thankful. Convoy of Hope is stepping in to help break the cycle of poverty by partnering with women so they can start their own businesses to better support themselves and their families. They also help young girls realize their worth and find their voices through girls empowerment. Empowering women and girls to advocate for themselves creates opportunities that last for generations. When women are empowered, entire communities are transformed. If you have a heart for hurting and marginalized women and girls, you can put your compassion into action by partnering with Convoy of Hope. Visit convoy.orgp31 to support women around the world and help break this cycle of poverty. That's convoy.org P31 Every gift makes a difference.
- [30:48]
B
Joel. There's another important aspect of this that is around the dowry and we kind of hinted at it in here because that's another important distinctive, if you will, when we're looking at scripture that most people don't know, but because you know it, I'd love for you to educate us a little bit about that.
- [31:08]
C
Yeah. So this is directly connected to the certificate of divorce. And so once again, the ancient Near Eastern world, very unique actually, exclusive for the Israelites to have this as a protection for the women. The other interesting thing is that when a woman came into a marriage, she brought with her, typically her dad, her family would bring a dowry, a payment of a sort as part of an exchange of vows. I mean actually we do this in modern day scenarios when we get married, we do an exchange of rings. You know, so this is my wedding ring. And you do an exchange of rings as a way to show like your love and your connection Point. In the Old Testament, what's so fascinating is this dowry, I think the Hebrew is called Ketubah, this was something that was not handed over to the husband. Husband fascinating. It was something that was actually held typically because it was a patriarchal society. So it was supposed to be held by the husband on behalf of the wife and it served as a fiscal, a financial safety net for the wife in the case that the husband would have died or in worst case scenario where a divorce takes place. So in the scenario where the husband hands a certificate of divorce to the wife, the wife is now able to do two things. She's actually able to remarry. That's the whole purpose of a certificate of divorce. It's so that another man might come in and say, oh, this is a woman and that person is not committing adultery, right? And it's like, okay, we can get married. But then the second thing is that that woman has a safety net, a financial safety net to survive in case that there is no other husband. Another interesting detail is let's say that the woman goes and then gets married to the second husband. Second husband is like an amazing dude. They have a beautiful marriage and the second husband dies. Right now the second husband is extremely wealthy and so she has accumulated some wealth as a result of that. The first husband, knucklehead, he's still around and he looks and he's like, wait a minute, my ex wife got some money. Now I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to go back and marry her and claim her as my own. So written into the marriage contract and marriage law is the that you could not remarry.
- [33:20]
D
Jeremiah talks about that.
- [33:21]
C
That's exactly right. And this is not permitting.
- [33:25]
B
It's not banning remarriage for all women, it's banning the husband, the first husband.
- [33:33]
C
From coming back, coming back and claiming her. And then because it's a fiscal opportunity, a financial opportunity, take all her money as well as a result of it. So you've got this like certificate of divorce. That's actually a really important detail because it once again is showing the elevation of God with women and it's contrasting it in the ancient world where you didn't have this type of thing. And once again, it's framed in these three major categories of food, clothing and marital rights. And another detail that I'm a Bible nerd, so I'll just give it to you in Ezekiel 16, if you just go through Ezekiel 16, the indictment that God gives against the people of Israel, and really the justification for why God divorces Israel, that's the language that's used in Jeremiah and elsewhere, is he says that God is the one who gave them food. And yet when he gave them food, the people gave the food to idols. God is the one who clothed them. But when he gave them clothes, the people adorned the idols. God is the one who loved them, but they in return loved idols. And so notice what's happening in Ezekiel 16. God Himself is actually employing the categories that are present in Exodus 21, Deuteronomy 24, as the basis behind the divorce that he has with Israel. Now, of course, we know that God reclaims Israel, he reclaims Judah, and he brings in the Gentiles. But there's this principle that's at play that would be important for us to pay attention to because it's painting kind of a picture for how we should understand the possibility of the worst case scenario and how God truly does want to create a safety net to protect his daughters.
- [35:11]
B
That's amazing.
- [35:12]
C
Love that.
- [35:13]
B
Well, I know today has been a lot of theology, and we are very, very grateful. Dr. Joel Mutamale, for all the time that you have put into this.
- [35:25]
C
Can I just give a little disclaimer once again? Because I just feel like I need to. I recognize that these are really difficult passages of Scripture. And the last thing that I would want for any of you to hear or for if you're a pastor or another Bible scholar to hear, is to presume that from a place of pride that I've just like thus saith the Lord, this is exactly what it is. That's not what we're trying to say or what I'm trying to say. I am trying, trying to present the very best evidence and scholarship in these areas. And once again, my prayer is in a place of humility and kind of vulnerability here that you would really take this into consideration and know that this is an ongoing conversation, but one that we believe, and I personally believe is so important because the cost is the daughters of God and definitely the sons of God. But we've seen exponentially, at least in our ministry, the impact this is having on women. And so I just want to to present that as well.
- [36:19]
B
Thank you for your humility. Thank you for all the education that you have sought out and the deep research that you have done. I hope today was helpful. I think this is one of those episodes that you'll probably want to go back and listen to, especially if you're on the go right now. That's where I like to listen to my podcast is out walking or just running errands or whatever. And if that's the case, I encourage you, go back and do what Joel said, open up your Bible, have some time to review and replay this episode and take notes, because I do think this stuff is important. And like we said at the very beginning of the show, this is in no way, shape or form meant to glorify divorce. We are very, very much wanting to protect the sanctity of marriage and the beauty of marriage as God intended it. But we also want at the very same time to be honest about what so many people are walking through right now. So if that's you or, you know, someone who's walking through a divorce, I pray that this information will be something that you really do. Pray through, think through, and study for yourself.
- [37:33]
A
Thanks for tuning in to today's conversation. Here's a few things I don't want you to miss. First, first, we want to hear from you and would be so honored if you took the survey you can find by accessing the link in our Show Notes. Your feedback is crucial for shaping future therapy and theology conversations and experiences. Also, make sure you secure your copy of Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, co written by Lisa, Dr. Joel and Jim. You can find that link by visiting the Show Notes as well. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything. We'll see you next time. Hey, Therapy and Theology listeners, it's Shea here. Hang tight for just one more announcement. Proverbs 31 Ministries is approaching the close of our fiscal year and your gift today is especially important. We could not get these important conversations into your homes and ultimately your hearts without the faithful generosity of donors. When you give today, you're helping us bridge the financial gap and plan confidently for the year ahead so that we can keep helping listeners like you work through what they're walking through. Give a gift today@proverbs31.org donate.