S10 E6 | Tools To Fight Anxiety and Better Your Mental Health

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapy and Theology

Episode: S10 E6 | Tools To Fight Anxiety and Better Your Mental Health
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Lysa TerKeurst
Guests: Rebecca Maxwell (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist), Shay Hill (Proverbs 31 Ministries)

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Lysa TerKeurst is joined by therapist Rebecca Maxwell and co-host Shay Hill to explore practical tools for managing anxiety and improving mental health, especially during difficult seasons such as unwanted divorce. Blending biblical wisdom with therapeutic strategies, the conversation is candid, compassionate, and packed with actionable steps to foster healing and resilience.

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Key Discussion Points

Integrating Faith and Psychology

• Faith and psychology are not at odds. Rebecca highlights that many therapeutic practices draw on biblical principles, and Christians need a strong scriptural foundation to navigate the mental health conversation (04:11).
  • “For too long, the church has kind of kept these conversations outside of the church and now the world is really talking about mental health. And so the church really needs to get in the conversation… Research really just reveals a lot more about how the scripture is applicable and practical to our daily lives.” – Rebecca (04:11)
• The therapeutic technique of "cognitive restructuring" and the biblical concept of "one-anothering" (attachment) are discussed as examples of overlap.

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The Power of Acceptance and Healing Cycles

• Healing requires acceptance. Lysa shares her counselor’s mantra:
  • "Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs." – Jim Kress via Lysa (06:06)
• Acceptance is not linear – grief and healing are cyclical; triggers can bring you back to past pain, even as you move forward (06:06–07:09).

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Morning Rhythms to Ground the Mind

• Rebecca emphasizes the importance of a morning routine, suggesting:
  • Avoid starting the day on your phone.
  • Move your body, nourish yourself with good food (especially breakfast).
  • Set your mind "on things above" through scripture or prayer (07:09–08:32).
  • “Our gut is our second brain and really helps regulate our mood.” – Rebecca (07:52)
  • Using positive input in the mornings helps build a strong foundation for managing triggers throughout the day.

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Journaling and Gratitude as Mental Health Tools

• Journaling creates neurological connections between brain and body; writing helps process both negative and positive thoughts (09:25).
  • “There is a neurological connection between our brain and our, like, writing... journaling is so important because when you are writing, you are kind of implanting something in your mind.” – Rebecca (09:25)
• Gratitude exercises: Even tiny acknowledgments (e.g., “I’m grateful that I’m breathing”) can powerfully shift perspective and anchor you to God’s presence (16:28–17:48).
  • Lysa shares, “I learned I didn't need to fake gratitude. I had to reduce my gratitude down to, 'I'm grateful that I'm breathing.' ... Just finding little tiny things to be grateful for reminded me that God is present in the small even when we feel like we can't see his work in the big things that we're facing.” (16:28–17:48)

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The Necessity of Community and Vulnerability

• Don’t isolate yourself. Connection and vulnerability with trusted friends combat loneliness, a core issue for those experiencing divorce or loss (11:19–12:30).
  • “We are made to feel like we belong... the biggest problem in our country is loneliness that leads to despair.” – Rebecca (11:19)
• Lysa and Rebecca discuss the complexities that can arise in friendships after divorce, including feelings of betrayal and resistance to reconnecting, but highlight the essential role of community in healing (13:00–14:39).

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Engaging with Scripture and Simplifying Spiritual Practices

• When it’s hard to engage with the Bible, Lysa encourages even minimal contact—reading a psalm, praying the name of Jesus, or simply being present with scripture (14:41–16:27).
  • “Sometimes when we feel like reading our Bible the least is when we actually need to pick it up the most.” – Lysa (15:04)
  • Praying scripture = praying God’s will.
  • It's okay if prayers are as simple as saying “Jesus” over and over.

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Building Healthy Habits and Coping Mechanisms

• Lysa and Rebecca stress building healthy rhythms—spiritual, relational, and physical—before crisis hits, to have tools ready for difficult times (18:01–19:42).
  • "What we are doing now is setting the tone for what tools and habits and rhythms we will have at our disposal when we go through that thing." – Rebecca (18:01)

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The Role of Boundaries in Mental Health

• Boundaries are not about pushing people away but about "holding ourselves together" and protecting our mental space (22:13–23:30).
  • "Boundaries are really just an effective communication tool to establish what is and is not okay in a relationship..." – Lysa (22:13)
  • Mind Boundaries: Protect what you allow in—thoughts, voices, influences (23:44–25:38).
  • Manage self-talk: "Do a lot more talking to yourself than listening to yourself." (25:38–26:13)
  • Replace empty affirmations with scriptural truth: "I'm beloved, I'm chosen, I'm not forgotten." (26:51)

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Taking Thoughts Captive and Managing Mental Loops

• Lysa describes the danger of ruminating on painful memories or lies and the need to interrupt these cycles with truth.
  • “I can't control my first thought, but I can surely control my second thought. And what I do with that second thought is really important.” – Lysa (28:22)
  • Rebecca echoes the biblical principle: "Take your thoughts captive." (29:04–29:18)

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Segment Focus: Tools to Fight Anxiety

[30:24 – 36:10]

Understanding Anxiety

• Anxiety is rooted in past regrets (“what if I had…”) and future fears (“what if...”). The antidote is grounding oneself in the present (30:24–32:15).
  • "Anxiety lives in the future and in the past. It lives in the what ifs... When we understand what anxiety is, and how it pulls us between two places... what would be a move that I can make? Be present." – Rebecca (30:24)

Practical Tools & Grounding Strategies

• Move your body: Walking helps reconnect mind and body.
• Breathing exercises: Bring immediate presence; even the act of focusing on your breath ties back to the spiritual (“Yahweh” as the breath of God) (32:15–32:27).
  • "Our body's always in the present... but our mind can be anywhere. If we can bring our mind and body back into connection... especially anxiety, the power of breathing. There's nothing more present than our breath." – Rebecca (31:50–32:22)
• Cold water/ice cubes: Physical sensation in the now stimulates the vagus nerve and can calm anxiety (32:57–33:11).
• Worship: Singing or speaking engages the nervous system and calms the body, integrating spiritual and physical healing (33:34–34:19).
  • “When we worship and our voice box is creating vibrations... those vibrations of worshiping really do connect the vagus nerve... Not only is that a spiritual exercise, but God hand designed our body so that it would physically calm us down.” – Lysa (33:34–34:19)

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Highlights from Jesus and Your Mental Health (Rebecca's Book)

• Rebecca’s favorite: Exploring the science of how brain, mind, and nervous system interplay—modern neuroscience shows where “scripture got it right” (35:34–36:10).
• The book is recommended as a bridge for those unable to access counseling immediately.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Acceptance:
  • “Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs.” – Jim Kress (via Lysa) [06:06]
• On Presence in Anxiety:
  • “When we first understand what anxiety is... where we find the best help and coping is to work on being present. ‘Be still and know that I am God.’” – Rebecca [30:24]
• On Journaling:
  • “There is a neurological connection between our brain and our... writing. When you are writing, you are kind of implanting something in your mind.” – Rebecca [09:25]
• On Boundaries and Thought Life:
  • “I can't control my first thought, but I can surely control my second thought.” – Lysa [28:22]
• On Scripture vs. Affirmations:
  • “What we have as Christians at our disposal is truth. So how much more impactful is, ‘this is how God sees me’ than kind of an empty affirmation.” – Rebecca [26:51]
• On Community:
  • “We are made to feel like we belong. And so I think... finding rhythms of meeting together and being in connection... is really, really important.” – Rebecca [11:19]

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Timestamps for Essential Segments

• [04:11] – Integrating faith and psychology in therapy
• [06:06] – The importance of acceptance in healing
• [07:09] – Morning routines and foundational daily habits
• [09:25] – The science and power of journaling
• [14:41] – Scripture and spiritual rhythms through grief
• [18:01] – Preparing healthy coping mechanisms before crisis
• [22:13] – The role and practice of boundaries in mental health
• [25:38] – Managing self-talk and affirming scriptural truth
• [30:24] – Understanding and combating anxiety
• [32:57] – Physical grounding techniques for anxiety (cold water, ice cubes)
• [33:34] – Worship, the nervous system, and the vagus nerve

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Overall Tone

The episode is warm, supportive, and deeply rooted in both faith and practical psychological wisdom. There is open acknowledgment of struggle, complexity, and imperfection, balanced by hope and the invitation to take manageable, meaningful steps toward healing.

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For Further Action

• Rebecca Maxwell’s book, Jesus and Your Mental Health – recommended as a practical resource for those seeking faith-based, therapeutic tools.
• Previous episodes – Listeners are encouraged to revisit earlier teachings on "taking thoughts captive" for practical mental health frameworks.

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This summary captures the heart and actionable insights of the episode, guiding listeners (and non-listeners) toward practical, faith-infused mental health tools to use in seasons of anxiety, trauma, or unwanted life change.

Transcript

[Shay Hill]

Proverbs 31 is proud to partner with Convoy of Hope to sponsor this season of therapy and theology. For over 30 years, Convoy of Hope has helped vulnerable communities around the world and empowering women and girls is a key part of that mission. Convoy of Hope partners with women so that they can start their own businesses to better support themselves and their families. They also help young girls realize their worth and find their voice because when women are empowered, entire communities are transformed. You can empower women and girls today by visiting convoy.org p31 that's convoy.org p31 hi friends.

Welcome back to the Therapy and Theology Podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so grateful that you're listening today. This season we've been diving into honest conversations about the painful reality of divorce, inspired by the new book that's coming out called Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, which was co written by Lisa Terkeurst, Dr. Joel Mutamali and Jim Kress. And as we've been exploring this deep heartache that comes with divorce, it's impossible not to also talk about the toll that it takes on your mental and emotional health. Healing from divorce isn't just about navigating a transition. It requires tending to your mind, your heart and your soul. So that's why today's conversation is so important. You'll be hearing from Lisa, of course, and a new friend that I'm really excited to introduce you to, Rebecca Maxwell. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and brings such compassionate perspectives and a ton of practical tips too. Also you guys, I'm stepping out from my usual behind the scenes seat and actually joining in on this conversation which I'm really excited. And remember, you can subscribe to receive all new episodes straight to your email inbox. Just use the link in our show notes below. All right, let's dive in.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Well, I have really been looking forward to today for a long time, Lisa. We are joined here with a very special guest today, aren't we?

We sure are. This is Rebecca Maxwell and she is a wife, a mom, a licensed professional counselor who brings together both faith and psychology in a powerful way. She is married to Sean. She has two sons who live with her along with her mom. So you've got a full busy house for sure. But mostly I like to say Rebecca is a dear, dear friend. She is brilliant. I have her on speed dial because when I have urgent and immediate counseling questions, she usually answers. So, so it's so fun. I have been a big proponent of this message even before it was released, and I'm thankful that it's out into the world now because I can't think of a more place powerful title, Jesus and your mental health, which is also the title of your podcast as well. It is.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

I am thrilled to be with you ladies. I have a lot of clients who get a lot of wisdom and encouragement from what you guys do here, and so I'm grateful to get to be a little part of it.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah, well, we're very grateful. And I think this topic. You know what, I'm just going to hold up the book so you guys can see it because it is so beautiful.

It is such a good color.

It is such a great color. But even more than that, power packed full of information that if you've been listening to therapy and theology for any time, this is a book that you will want.

Yeah, that's so good. And Rebecca, I know we've been in a season on therapy and theology talking about surviving an unwanted divorce, but I really see such a strong case for how this message fits in with this topic. But before we dive in a little bit, let's talk just about you and your practice. I love how you talk about the connection between psychology and our faith, and I know you mentioned that, Lisa too, but obviously that's something we're passionate about here on therapy and theology with the title. So how do you see through your own experience and your own practice? Why these two worlds, if you will? They don't have to compete against each other, but when actually done well, they can really complement one another totally.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

I think that they do complement each other really well. The scripture is chock full of wisdom for us when it comes to our minds and our hearts and mental health. And for. For too long, the church has kind of kept these conversations outside of the church and now the world is really talking about mental health. And so the church really needs to get in the conversation and understand that research really just reveals a lot more about how the scripture is applicable and practical to our daily lives. And we see that in so many ways that you guys talk about on this podcast a lot. With cognitive restructuring and one anothering, we call that attachment. And you guys have talked about attachment on this podcast and just the list goes on in the ways that research, we just go, oh yeah, we have that in our, in our Bible. We have that in our hands all the time. Yeah, that's true. And so I love to help church people, Christians, to see that they don't have to be at odds. But we do need, and the reason I wrote the book is Christians need a really good biblical foundation to approach the mental health movement, because there's a lot out there that isn't maybe for maybe, isn't accurate, isn't truthful, could steer us away from God. So we really need a good foundation.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That's so good.

And I think, too, one thing that you're so brilliant at is it's one thing to know that a lot of therapeutic practices come straight from scripture, but it's another to have someone help you make those connections so you can talk about it with confidence. And I'm really thankful for your book, Jesus in your Mental Health, because you do just that. Rebecca, I know that one of the things that really helped me in my own personal healing journey after the death of my marriage was this term called acceptance.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Acceptance, yes.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

My counselor, Jim Kress, often says mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. And acceptance is certainly part of that. Also, when you look at the healing stages, or some people say stages of grief, acceptance, and is what you're really wanting to get to. But we also know that grief is cyclical and healing is cyclical. So it's not like, okay, I accept this part, but then now I may cycle right back into some of the pain and having to work through new things that come up. And one of the things that drags me back to the past, even though I have worked on accepting where I'm headed in my future and where I'm living right now, but it's triggers, it, you know, it'll drag me right back, like from a hurtful memory. And it. I know that I need to make wise decisions right now to better shape my future. And so how do we really practice rhythms or activities for our minds that can help us continue on that path of healing?

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. So I always tell my clients that the most important time of the day is the morning. Our mind is fresh, we've just rested, hopefully, but our mind is, like, ready to take in new inputs. And so one of the ways to tackle some of these things is just to get your mind going in the right direction first thing in the morning. I'm really challenging almost everyone that comes in my office to come up with a morning routine that does not involve their phone, only if they're grabbing a Bible verse in the morning. And I mean, the thing we're telling everybody whether there are lots of triggers or not, is move your body, nourish your body with good food, a Lot of people don't eat breakfast. It's very, very important to nourish your body, since our gut is our second brain and really helps regulate our mood and to really set our mind on the things above. So then when these triggers pop up throughout the day, you've already given yourself kind of a foundation for that day. Whether that's a verse you've memorized or, you know, we remember the scripture passage that we studied that morning. It really sets your mind in the right direction for all mental, like, wellness, you know, that's what I suggest.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Absolutely. I know you and I see the same trainer, Alicia. We love her. Shout out to you, Alicia. But I was shocked one day when she told me how important is, especially for women our age, to get up and eat breakfast and, you know, also making sure that some of it is protein.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And I was like, well, wait, I thought intermittent fasting was, like, really important. And she was like, no, Lisa, you really need to get up and you need to eat something so that it cues your body to start your metabolism up and rev it up. And I thought that was really important. And I know from doing some brain research that when we sleep at night, baby neurons are formed, and how we use those with our first thoughts in the morning determines so much about our patterns of thinking for that entire day.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Absolutely.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so I wholeheartedly agree. I know. You're also very encouraging of people to do journaling and gratitude exercises as well.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. Research is showing us how important gratitude is, and we're all like, well, duh. That's what the scripture says we're supposed to do. And journaling is so great to get bad thoughts out, but you also need a journal to get the good in. Right. There is a neurological connection between our brain and our, like, writing. And so journaling is so important because when you are writing, you are kind of implanting something in your mind. And so a lot of times I tell people, like, get all the negative stuff out and then go to scripture. Write the scripture, write a response to God about what you hear him telling you in that scripture. So that you are creating some new pathways in your brain.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That is so good. I just want to draw to your attention. Shay. Okay. That she said how important it is. There's a neurological connection when you write things on paper. Because I've been trying to tell my team I need a paper calendar for years now.

[Shay Hill]

Okay.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

But what I will say is there is a difference between a paper calendar and a paper journal, because I also. There's nothing I love more Which I don't know the science behind this, but a paper, paper to do list, like, the feeling of getting to mark something off at that bullet point when it's done brings me some. Sometimes I write things I've already done just so I can mark it off. But there really is something.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

It's a dopamine hit.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah, there totally is.

I think so, too. And I really do see the value of putting pen to paper.

I do, too. Anytime I feel like I'm in a. A prayer rut, I have found that I can usually, even if I feel like I'm not really in the mood to like, or I'm not really feeling audibly talking to God, I can often actually journal prayers. And that kind of pulls me out of that rut. So it's cool to hear the science behind that.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

What other rhythms do you find are helpful as far as caring for our mental health when we're trying to take care of our minds?

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. I think we cannot neglect being with people and people that we trust and love us. It is truly our lifeline. I mean, it's all over the scripture. We are meant to be in community. We're meant to be with people. And of course, we have to find the right ones. And when we do find the right ones, we've got to go deep, we've got to be vulnerable. We've got to tell them when we're struggling, and we've got to have people praying for us. You know, Lisa and I have an amazing group of women, and we are constantly in prayer for one another and all of the other people in our lives. We bring all of our cares of our life to this group, and it does something really significant in our brain when we do that. We are made to feel like we belong. And so I think when, especially when women are facing divorce, they tend to pull away for a lot of reasons that you outline in your book. And it's really the worst thing that they can do because it reinforces that I don't belong, that I'm broken, that I'm too broken to be in this with these people anymore. And really, the biggest problem in our country is loneliness that leads to despair. And so this is one of, you know, unwanted divorce is one of the ways that women can sink into that place. And so finding rhythms of meeting together with women and being in connection, we both meet together and have an ongoing text conversation all day long. I do. It's really, really important to do that.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up because, like, you mentioned some of the. Maybe the lies or the scripts that run through your head is like, I'm too broken. But I can imagine there's also just a bunch complexities amongst relationships. When you find yourself facing an unwanted divorce of relationships that used to make so much sense on paper. Now there's some complexities. Or maybe you and your spouse, you know, you were couple friends with these people and that made sense. And then it's like everyone has their own opinion or their own version of kind of what has happened. And there's a lot of complexities in those relationships that can make that connection not feel as natural as it used to.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I definitely expect. Experienced that when I went through my unwanted divorce. And, you know, I would maybe be listening to this podcast and I would go, well, that's nice that I need to be connecting. But I feel so betrayed. Not just by the man that broke my heart, but also I feel betrayed by people who picked sides. I feel betrayed by people who felt like they needed to pick apart my marriage and figure out what I did wrong so that this same thing wouldn't happen to them. You know, and so there you use the word complexities, and I think that's very, very true. You know, I. I experienced. I needed to hear you say all of these things because I experienced resistance to all of them. Not just connecting, but I experienced resistance to opening up, up God's word.

Right.

Because I just was so, so tired. I was so exhausted. And to be honest, I was still in shock over what God allowed.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

You see, I believe God is good.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I do not doubt that at all. But I felt like in that season. But why isn't he being good to me in this? How could God have seen what was happening with my ex husband and not either step in and stop it or warn me ahead of time? And so there was just a lot. But what I found is sometimes when we feel like reading our Bible the least is when we actually need to pick it up the most.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Absolutely.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And sometimes I didn't put pressure on myself to do any deep theological study. I would just literally open up one of my favorite books of the Bible. And you could start with Psalm, you could start with Proverbs, you could open up Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. You know, sometimes I would even go into Genesis, but I would just open up one of these books and I would just read Scripture. And I wouldn't put pressure on myself to make sure that the scripture applied or that I was studying it or that I did anything, because I know Just filling my environment up with the word of God is the power of God. And when we, when we then take the scriptures and sometimes I would just pray them like, lord, I don't know how to pray for my situation right now. But that's okay because I'm just going to pray the word of God. Because I know when I pray the word of God, I'm praying the will of God as well.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Absolutely.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And then sometimes, Rebecca, my prayers were reduced just down to saying the name of Jesus. And you've seen me do this a lot. Che is just like, I don't know how to pray, what to say, but I just know that demons flee at the mention of Jesus name. There was power in his name. So I would just sometimes literally sit on my bed with my Bible open and just say, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, over and over until I knew that I'd given some minutes of my day to that. And then if I needed to close it all up and lay in my bed and cry, then I would, you know.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

But the other thing that you mentioned too, is gratitude. And that can be really challenging, really challenging going through an unwanted divorce. But what helped me is I learned I didn't need to fake gratitude. I didn't need to say, okay, I'm grateful for this divorce because, you know, I know God's one day going to work through it and good. And I didn't need to do that. So I had to reduce my gratitude down to, I'm grateful that I'm breathing. I'm grateful that I have a bathtub that I can go sit in. I am grateful that there's rain outside because I know that means I'm not gonna have to water my plants today, you know, whatever it is. But I had to reduce it way down. But what I found is just finding little tiny things to be grateful for reminded me that God is present in the small even when we feel like we can't see his work in the big things that we're facing. And reminding ourselves that he's present in the small will give us the courage then to say, well, if he's present here, if he's causing the rain, which he is, if he's present there, then I can remember he's present even in the midst of the big things. Because we don't serve a do nothing God. God is always doing something. And if we can just hang onto that and remember, it's really, really powerful.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. I tell my clients, sometimes all you can do is the next right thing, you know, and that's kind of what you're talking about. Sometimes it's taking a shower or phoning a friend or just opening up your Bible.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Right.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

And our pastor says that worship is war and that you should worship through whatever you're experiencing. And I was just reminded of that when you were talking about just, I'm gonna open up my Bible and I'm gonna read even if I'm not trying to make some big meaning or find, you know, see the. See what God is doing, you know, all the way down the line. At the end of this, I'm just going to take a small step today of what I know is good for me, that there's nothing in me that wants to do this thing right now, but I'm gonna do it anyways. There's so much power in those rhythms and in those habits that we've established. And I think the other thing is we're all going to, whether it's unwanted divorce or something else, we're all going to experience major tragedy in our life. And what we are doing now is setting the tone for what tools and habits and rhythms we will have at our disposal when we go through that thing. So I talk in my book a lot about mental well, because if we're not prepared, well, then we don't have those things that we. I mean, you know, we've all been walking with the Lord for a long time. Don't you need the scripture like you need air?

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yes.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

And you're really going to need that.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

When you go through something hard and healthy coping mechanisms. Absolutely. Because there's a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms that you can turn to, to numb out and check out and all that.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

And growing every day. Yes.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

The number of things we do, the.

Number of unhealthy coping mechanisms just are increasing day by day. But I do think it's really crucial to set your habits in the direction of healthy coping mechanisms.

[Shay Hill]

Hey, therapy and theology friends, this is Shay. Just a quick pause to tell you more about our partner for this season of therapy and theology, Convoy of hope. For over 30 years, Convoy of Hope has helped vulnerable communities around the world. And empowering women and girls is a key part of that mission. As a therapy and theology listener, you're probably familiar with the conversations Lisa, Jim, and Joel have had about why no one wins when a woman is devalued. The Bible has so much to say about this, but the problem is actually bigger than us. That's why we're so thankful. Convoy of Hope is stepping in to help break the cycle of poverty by partnering with women so they can start their own businesses to better support themselves and their families. They also help young girls realize their worth and find their voices through girls empowerment. Empowering women and girls to advocate for themselves creates opportunities that last for generations. When women are empowered, entire communities are transformed. If you have a heart for hurting and marginalized women and girls, you can put your compassion into action by partnering with Convoy of Hope. Visit convoy.orgp31 to support women around the world and help break this cycle of poverty. Poverty. That's convoy.org P31. Every gift makes a difference.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay. You also talk about boundaries, which is an important part of Jesus and your mental health. And, you know, I could talk about boundaries for a hot minute because I really, really enjoy talking about boundaries. I have to make an admission. I have written a book on boundaries. I have been practicing boundaries, and I sometimes still stink at boundaries. I just feel like it's really important to make that admission. So if you're like, oh, I hate hearing the word boundaries because that's for other people, but they just don't work for me, Sis, I get it. I get it, because sometimes I am right back in that same boat with you. But the point isn't to perfect this system of health called boundaries. The point is to let it work for you. And I found, and Rebecca, boundaries are really just an effective communication tool to establish what is and is not okay in a relationship, to establish what we do and do not have to give, and to establish what we will and will not tolerate. And for me, when I finally broke it down all the way to, wow, this is just an effective communication tool, then it made boundaries seem less intimidating.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that we're all on a journey to get better at boundaries in a lot of areas of our lives. And I look at a lot of things we're talking about in the context of boundaries, whether it's boundaries around our mourning and what we're doing there, boundaries around how we engage with people, which people we give the most access to. Right. And especially when you're going through an unwanted divorce, we can have that tendency to pull back and not give anyone access, but we do need people to have access. We need to choose wisely. We need to choose wise people to share our story with because not everybody's going to get it or listen well, all of those things. And especially in just dealing with the divorce in and of itself, you know, there's boundaries around what you tell people, how you communicate with your soon to be Ex. How you communicate with your children. And all of that is related to boundaries.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah. So good. I had to learn that boundaries aren't meant to shove other people away. They're meant to help hold ourselves together.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yes.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

But I'd love for you to make the connection. What do boundaries have to do with the mind? Because I feel like that's something that is unique to the message that you have in Jesus and your mental health. And I really want to go there.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. So I really think we have to protect our minds from the myriad of messages that our world wants to put on us. And if we stay completely open to everything, not everything is good for us. Right. The scripture talks about that. You know, everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Beneficial. Thank you for that word. And so I think we have to put boundaries around our mind. We talked about the morning routine. That's a boundary in and of itself. What am I going to put in my mind for the day? What am I going to put in my ears? What am I going to allow? What am I going to allow me to speak to myself. Right. What am I going to allow other people to speak to me? And really deciding what that needs to look like to be as healthy as possible. Because we know that our thoughts impact our feelings, impact our behaviors. And so. And the thing we have the control the most over is our thoughts to direct those things.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That's so true. Because we. I find myself maybe feeling like I don't have a ton of feeling. A ton of control over my feelings. But what did you. I wanted to go back to what you said. Our thoughts control our feelings and our feelings. Or was it impact our thoughts, impact our feelings, our feelings impact our behaviors.

[Shay Hill]

Is that what you said?

[Rebecca Maxwell]

And vice versa. It's kind of like a life cycle.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

It's kind of like a cycle that keeps on going back to each other.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah, Right. That's so good. And we have the least control over our feelings.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Totally.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

They're very automatic.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yes.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Right. But we can. With our mind. We can guide our feelings and we can guide our behavior. And it does all work together. But we have the most control over our mind. What's coming in, what's going out, what we're entertaining, what we're listening to, who we're listening to. Are we listening to ourselves more? Are we listening to God more? And that all involves boundaries.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I was in a workout class recently, and the trainer said something that I actually felt like was really profound, spiritually. Also felt very profound in that moment. But he said, you need to Do a lot more talking to yourself right now than listening to yourself, which in the middle of a workout class. What are you saying to yourself? Well, if you're like me, you're probably saying like, like, I can't wait for this to be over. Is he gonna say horrible? Is he going to say that I'm almost done. How many more times do I have to do this? Will anyone notice if I maybe don't give 100 right now? Yeah, I would rather be resting.

How much this hurts me.

He does not know what else I brought into this class, you know, and so, but I, I thought spiritually that was so profound also because that is so true. Like, I do need to be talking to myself, which that really goes back to even like opening up God's word or going back to my gratitude journal or protecting my morning. Like all of that really fuels what comes into my mind.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. And we know, I mean, scientific research tells us how important it, how important what we speak to ourselves is. What we have as Christians at our disposal is truth.

[Shay Hill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Right. So how much more impactful is this is how God sees me then? Kind of an empty affirmation, you know, I'm beautiful, I'm wonderful, I'm successful. Right. That's empty. But when we look at the scripture and we see, I'm beloved, I'm chosen, I'm not forgotten. That is truth. And that truth just rings true in us and we can believe it better than kind of a made up mantra that we're putting on ourselves, trying to put on ourselves. Right. The truth is the thing that resonates with the Holy Spirit inside of us. Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I'm so glad we're talking about this because I found when I was really in the throes of feeling so rejected and so down, I would often remember things that my ex husband had said to me and I would ruminate on them and I would just repeat them over and over and over and over and what I was really trying to do because our brain is wired for the confidence of knowing. I wanted to know, why did he say this? Does he really believe it? I wanted to know, like, what could I have done differently? What is wrong with me? You know? And there's so many questions that probably are never, ever, ever going to be answered. I remember Jim telling me, lisa, when you continue to try to make sense of something that makes no sense, you'll lose all sense. And that is very, very true. So I had to start training my brain to do exactly what you're talking about. And that is Leading my thoughts in the direction of truth. And I remember I had this really profound moment one time. I was sitting down. I was thinking about some of the things that he had said to me, and it occurred to me, like, Lisa, this person has lied to you over and over and over. So why are you letting him be a voice of truth in your life? And what I realized is how important it would be to put a boundary around my thinking so that I would say, okay, I can't control my first thought, but I can surely control my second thought. And what I do with that second thought is really important.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. So important. That first thought, a lot of times comes out of our anxiety, our wounding, our hurt. Right. But we can. We know the scripture says, take your thoughts captive. Yeah. And that's exactly what you're talking about.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That's so good. I know earlier in this season, Joel did a really profound teaching on taking your thoughts captive. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to it, because it really gave me, like, a practical place to walk through. How do I actually do this? Because I know it's a. It's a biblical principle, but I feel like he spelled it out in a really profound way. I want to shift for a minute to talk about anxiety. You just mentioned that mental health can feel, honestly, like, this big whenever we're talking about it. But I feel like whenever we are talking about mental health, anxiety is something that comes up. And I know you mentioned, as we're trying to move through our life and accept what our life is, even if we're going through unwanted circumstances, there is this role of acceptance, but then there's triggers that want to pull you into the past. But I also think anxiety has a strong presence. And so what are some practical tips or even just words of encouragement that you have for those of us who may be in a season of anxiety or having an anxious day? I know that spectrum can probably feel relative, but how do we comb the power that sometimes anxiety feels like it has over our minds and ultimately our lives?

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yeah. I think something important to remember is I tell my clients, anxiety lives in the future and in the past. It lives in the what ifs of the future. What's gonna happen to me now? What is my life gonna look like? Who am I going to be? But it also lives in the past of what if I had just. Or what if I hadn't? Right. And so I say it's like living in what if lands. And so when we first. When we understand what anxiety is, and how it pulls us between two places, which is actually the root of anxieties. The root meaning is it's pulling us between two places, future and past. Now you can understand, okay, well, then what would be a move that I can make to keep me from going future and past that I have no control over? God has complete control over those things. And so where we find the best help and coping is to work on being present. Be still, and know that I am God. And not just know that I am God, but know that I am in control and that I am with you. And so the power of presence is very, very important. And not just in your mind, but in your body. When we're anxious, our mind and our body are often disconnected. Our body's always in the present. It's right here. Right. But our mind can be anywhere. It can be in what's gonna happen to me. It can be in what did I do wrong. Right? But if we can bring our mind and body back into connection through moving our body, like, I think walking is one of the best tools for literally everything in our lives, especially anxiety, the power of breathing. There's nothing more present than our breath. So remember, our body's present. Our breath is very present, and God gave us that breath. So. So it's very easy to connect with Yahweh when we're just focusing on our breath. It brings our mind right here where our breath is, where God is as close as our breath.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That is so good. I've always heard people talk about breathing, but I have never made the connections you just made. That is so good.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Well, the name of Yahweh is like the. Is like the sound of the breath. The breath is done. Yes.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

It's so good.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Yahweh way. God.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Oh, that is so good. See, yet another reason I'm going to call you next time I'm anxious. Like, do that Yahweh thing with me, please.

Something that Lisa has talked about. I can't remember right now which book of yours this is in, but you talk about drinking water when you feel anxious. And for some reason, that has always stuck with me. So I feel like I've kind of become the water police. If someone's like, I'm feeling anxious, I'm like, have you had some water? But I don't know, it just feels like cold water to kind of like.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Cold water is even better. I tell people to put in. Hold an ice cube in their mouth. Wow.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Because you can't help but think about the cold. That's happening in your mouth. And the other thing it does is it stimulates your vagus nerve.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yes, right. Yes.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

So your parasympathetic rest and digest. So there's some physical tricks that you can use for your anxiety and they're really, really powerful. Drinking cold water, an ice cube, walking, breathing, all of those things are body things. Right. We talk a lot about the mind, but we can actually bring some calm and peace and presence through physical things that we can do.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I'm glad you brought up the vagus nerve because you know when Pastor Joby talks about worship is war and I read one time that part of the way God designed our body is when we worship and our voice box is creating vibrations that those vibrations of worshiping really do connect the vagus nerve and it runs right along the anxiety pathways or even it's the nervous system. Yes, our nervous system. So even just worshiping God, not only is that a spiritual exercise, but God hand designed our body so that it would physically calm us down.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Isn't that amazing?

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I think it's so amazing.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

That's another place where science and scripture intersect. I love it.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah. And I really love this chapter that we're talking about right now from your book Jesus. And you'd Mental health is anxiety. I know Jesus holds my future, but what if.

Yeah, I love how you talked about how to spot that anxiety. Like am I am. Oftentimes I can now go back and think about other times where I was fixated on the past or I was fixated on the future and now I can know, oh, that's anxiety. It's rarely about something that's going on right now. It's usually something for me that's like way up ahead. And then if I can kind of come back to the present moment, I'm like, that's not solvable right now. Normally if I can come back to my non triggered brain or non anxious brain, I can realize that's not solvable, that's anxiety. It's play in my life.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Totally. And the majority of things that we're worrying about, I mean there's been research on this. The majority of the thing, like 90 some percent the things we worry about never come to pass. So we spend all of this mental energy worrying about what's going to happen and it never comes to pass anyways. We try to figure it out in our head when really like working on being more present and more connected. Mind, body connection is, is what really calms that anxiety.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That's so good.

What is your favorite part of your book.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

So I'm kind of nerdy and I really like it's like maybe the second or third chapter. And it talks about the brain and the mind and the differences and the connection and the nervous system and how it works. I really, really enjoy the intricacies of how the, the mind and the brain are interconnected. And especially because we're still figuring it out. Like neuroscience is this huge developing science that is telling us so much and revealing so much of where scripture got it right.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

So that's probably my favorite. Well, Rebecca, I am so grateful. I know that this book was a labor of love.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

It was.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

But I'm so grateful that you took the time to put it all down in a resource. You know, one of the number one things we hear at therapy and theology is the cry for I can't find a counselor. And while a book and a podcast and all that doesn't replace the ultimate need for a counselor, it sure is an amazing bridge. And so if you're in that season where you need a bridge from what you're facing right now and you're like, that's nice, but the counselor that I just called can't see me for three months and I need help right now. I highly recommend Rebecca Maxwell new book, Jesus and you'd Mental Health because I think this is going to explain a lot of things that you've had questions about. It's going to get you into scripture, but it's also going to give you wise therapeutic practices. And I can't think of a more tender voice to speak into a hurting woman, especially someone who is trying to survive an unwanted divorce, than you. You're amazing.

[Rebecca Maxwell]

Thank you. Lisa.

[Shay Hill]

Thanks for tuning in to today's conversation. Here's a few things I don't want to you to miss. First, make sure you secure your copy of Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, which is written by Lisa, Dr. Joel and Jim Kress. You can find that link in our show notes. Next, we added some resources in the show notes for you to stay connected with Rebecca, learn more about her book and even her counseling practice. And you can find that link in our show notes as well.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Therapy and Theology is brought to you.

[Shay Hill]

By Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything thing. We'll see you next time.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Hi friends, this is Lisa Terkers and I am so excited to share that. From November 3rd through November 14th, 2025, I'll be on the Trustigan tour with my friend and worship leader Tasha Layton. Here's what I've come to know. None of us gets to live this life unmarked by hurt. So none of us gets to live this life without trust issues. My goal for these nights is to help you see that having your trust broken may be life altering but it doesn' have to be life ruining. Check out tprlive co to get your tickets and we'll see you soon.