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Therapy and Theology
S11 E1 | "What Does It Mean To Be Spiritually Healthy?" With Dr. Joel Muddamalle
00:47:50
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- [00:02]
Shea Hill
Listen to this review we recently just received from a listener named Nikki. She writes, I discovered the Therapy and Theology podcast during a frantic Google search. In the midnight hours, I was searching for answers to the questions that kept my aching heart awake. I felt terrified and abandoned, but not by God. This podcast was my lifeline when I thought I was going to drown. You see, it's generous people just like you that help reach women like Nikki with the truth of God's word when they need it the most. If you'd like to give a gift today so therapy and theology can reach even more women in their desperate moments, go to proverbs31.org givenow welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we.
- [00:47]
Lisa
Help you work through what you walk through.
- [00:49]
Shea Hill
I'm your host, Shea Hill, and I'm so glad that you're tuning in today. This season is called Health Check, where each week we're going to tackle one specific area in our life and learn how to be the healthiest, most, most whole version of ourselves. We'll cover spiritual, mental, emotional and relational health over the next four weeks, and in today's episode, I sit down with Dr. Joel Mutamali and we talk all things spiritual health and I cannot wait for you to hear it as you listen to this season on Health Check. It's really for adults, but one of the biggest concerns I hear from youth pastors, teachers, and especially parents is this how do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling emotionally and mentally? If that's you, you are not alone. That's why I want to tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach Program from the American association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It's a biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical, real world tools to support youth and their families. You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges that young people are facing today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction and emotional reg. Also, learn how to respond with care and when to step in and when to refer to a professional. Right now you can receive a full tuition scholarship and get started for just a one time $54 technology fee. If you're in ministry, education, counseling or simply feel called to help, this training gives you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more and apply@mentalhealthcoach.org or you can visit the link in our Show Notes below. And before we jump in, here are a few reminders. Number one subscribe and receive episodes straight to your inbox by clicking on the link in our show notes below. Secondly, we are launching a brand new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail, and it's brought to you by our friends at Compassion International. These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners just like you, and an answer from either Lisa, Jim or Dr. Joel. Tune in on Apple podcasts and Spotify or wherever you listen and make sure you listen all the way through to the end so you don't miss it. And lastly, we want to know how therapy and theology is helping you work through what you walk through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. Okay, now onto today's conversation.
- [03:21]
Lisa
Hello, Joel, I'm glad to be with you today. I'm so excited for this conversation because we are the first episode kicking off this series that I'm loosely calling Health Check. Um, but really I wanted to kick off therapy and theology in 2026. Diving into how can we really approach this year becoming the healthiest versions of ourselves and not just like physical health? I know that this is a big time of year for people to get back in their gym memberships or maybe you're doing whole 30 or, you know, you have like health goals that you're trying to.
- [03:59]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Which nobody should ever try to accomplish in their lives.
- [04:03]
Lisa
Right, exactly. So those are like, all great. But I really wanted to look at. Okay, if therapy and theology is here to help us work through what we're walking through, that's really more so talking about, like our inside lives. And so we're going to spend the next couple of weeks talking through different areas of health. And I thought that it would be really important for us to start with spiritual health as the first episode, the first area of health that we dive into. And here's why. I believe that spiritual health is foundational for every other area in our life that we want to flourish in. I think when we are spiritually healthy, it keeps our motives pure for all of these other areas of our life that we want to flourish in. And so I'm really excited to pick your brain today just about how can we truly be spiritually healthy in 2026? So let's just go ahead and dive in. I want to hear in your own words or in your research, however you want to answer this, what is mean to you to be a spiritually healthy person?
- [05:08]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of nailed it already, Shay. I think often what we think about with health, when we're getting into the new year, we're thinking so much about the outward appearance. Like, we care a lot about what we look like. I. I'm in the gym pretty consistently, not because I try to be healthy, but that's the place where I do most of my thinking, which is kind of funny. And so January, it's like, you know, the, the people that are in the gym all the time, they always kind of get annoyed because it's like, oh, here we go. The, the influx of all the brand new people that have all the best intentions. And, and honestly, there's a part of me that's just very empathetic. Like, I really understand that because I find myself in the exact same pattern. And so if you find yourself in that place, like, that's not a condemnation against you. That's like, man, there's an impulse that you have inside of you that is a really good impulse, and that impulse is that you're actually desiring health.
- [06:01]
Lisa
You.
- [06:02]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
You want your outward appearance to flourish. And I think what I love about what you said, Shay, is that that outward appearance flourishing in the biblical worldview is intimately and intricately connected to the inward flourishing of who we are. And so, you know, I'm a theology guy, so we'll get a little theology nerdy here for a second. But post enlightenment, kind of the post enlightenment movement, industrial revolution, like all this kind of stuff created a different kind of thinking that made the physical and the spiritual as if they're too disparate or two separate categories. But in the ancient worldview, the biblical worldview in the time of the New Testament, these two things were not separated. They were not disconnected. They were very, like I said, intimately interconnected. And I want to somebody like, well, Joel, I need you to prove it. Like, happy to. Let's take a look at Eden, right? We always go back to Eden. If our friend Lisa was here right now, she'd just be smiling, you know, from, from side to side. Like Eden is the place we go back to. And in Eden, I think it's fascinating that the human origin story begins with a physical creation in the sense that God steps down and he crafts Adam. And that Hebrew word, Adam, it actually is a, a categorical term for humanity, right? So the way the ancient Hebrews were thinking about this, sometimes we think either or like, it has to be a singular individual. The ancient Hebrews are fine thinking both. And they're like, oh, yeah, this is the story of the Adam. And it is a poetic display of what does humanity's origin story look like? And so you've got that, that God comes Down and he crafts humanity from the, from the adama, which is the dust, the soil, that's the Hebrew word for soil, and creates Adam, man, right? And so instantly we're like earthly, physical. But then life doesn't begin. This is so wild. Until God bends low and breathes his breath of life, the rua, the spirit, into humanity. And that's when life begins. And so to point this out, to really like exegetically and theologically affirm everything that you just said, Shay, it's like, when does real life begin? Real life begins when God's spirit, the spiritual reality, flourishes inside of the body and animates the rest of our body. And so that's kind of a long way. And I just want to give like that was an Old Testament example. Let me give a New Testament, verse 1 Thessalonians 5:23. This is Paul talking to the church in Thessalonica. And he says, may God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. I kind of love that he's already like, hey, by the way, this is a lot work, a lot of work. Sanctification, a lot of work. It's going to have to take not just one through, maybe multiple throughs. So sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the One who calls you and is faithful, and he will do it. And so we find out two examples, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament that kind of bookends this idea that the, the human is a spiritual being. Like, like we're both spiritual and physical. Okay, so to your question, what does it actually mean to be a spiritually healthy person? Post fall, we have to take into consideration the reality of human brokenness, you know, and so a spiritually healthy person, from my vantage point, is a person whose heart affection is aligned with head knowledge, right? And so there's heart love that is matched with head knowing, which then flows in what you actually do. The specifically healthy person is like, spiritually healthy person is well aware of both their aim and their ambition. Their spiritual healthy person has an aim for Jesus. Like that's who we're seeking after. And our ambition is to be like the one that we're aiming after. This is what brings spiritual health to us. And I think a spiritually healthy person, and this is kind of interesting, in my vantage point, a spiritually healthy person is aware of emotional health and emotional decline. Sometimes we think that spiritually healthy equates to Human perfection or like, like, like we're just like, we're living it right? We're like at the top of our game. I'm unconvinced. That's what the Bible is actually talking about when it comes to a spiritually healthy person. I mean, about Jesus, he's going through it like he is suffering. He's dealing with betrayal, he's dealing with Roman, like government oppression. He knows the cross is coming, there's demonic activity that's happening all over him. And so if we were like, man, you know, the condition to be spiritually healthy is everything is going well in your life, that you're just at peace with everything that's happening, I'd be like, well then Jesus was an incredibly spiritually unhealthy person because he was going through a lot of stuff and we would never say that. So what does it mean to be spiritually healthy? It's not about perfection. Perfection. Spiritual health is a commitment to progressive sanctification. It's saying like, I am aware of these areas of my life that I still need Jesus, you know, I, the indwelling Holy Spirit, I need some good friends around me. We're going to get some of these things. And then finally I'll just say like when I think of Spirit, the spiritually healthy person, I think of a person who takes accountability and exercises their God given agency instead of opting for blame shifting or gaslighting and then kind of taking on this victim mentality. And in fact we see this error all the way back in the garden with Adam and Eve. Adam's like, to God, it was the woman you gave me God. Which like, if I'm Eve, I'm like, what is this knucklehead who is with me the entire time right now? He's saying it's this, you know. And so, yeah, I think that's kind of what is. And a spiritual healthy person is aware that spiritual health is an action that starts and is an action that continues to grow. I think of second Peter 3:18, where Peter says, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory, both now and forever. And so a spiritually healthy person is the one who understands that they have received grace.
- [12:37]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [12:37]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Is a person who extends grace to others, is a person who has a knowledge of Jesus, of their Lord, and whose knowledge is being revealed in and through both their words and their action. And so I think that's what it means to be a spiritual healthy person.
- [12:55]
Lisa
Yeah, so good. I love so many things that you just said. But to kind of summarize it, like, I love how you pointed out that we're spiritual beings here in a physical world. I think for some people listening today, that may be like a huge light bulb moment that goes on. But also some of the other things that you're talking about, of what is our aim and what is our ambition. I wanted to point out John 17:3. This is the ESV translation and it says, and this is eternal life that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I just love that verse because I feel like it sums up what we try to over complicate sometimes. I feel like this is where Jim would say it's simple but not simplistic.
- [13:41]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah.
- [13:41]
Lisa
Of like, to know God, to know the one true God. And what an incredible aim for 20, 26. Like, that this would be a year that we would truly know God. And some of the other things that you're talking about. I also had in my notes as I was preparing for this conversation that, like, spiritual health does not equal spiritual perfection. And it's really easy, I think, to look at maybe people that even like, have a platform or people that are on a stage or people that are kind of like front and center. And maybe like assum. Like that is like the peak of spiritual health, like being on a platform and being used by God in that way. But I love how you talk about. It's really more like our inside world, taking inventory of our inside world. And only God can help us test, like, the intentions of our heart and to know, like, the purities and impurities of our heart. And something else that I have thought about too, is I think a component of spiritual health is spiritual honesty, like really sitting. Sitting before the Lord in honesty and being honest with him about where we're at, being honest with him about how we feel about him and our relationship with Him. And I think that's a component that will come up today of just really like. Yeah, sending in like, transparency. I think that also translates to, like, spiritual community, which I'm sure we'll get to. But I love so many things that you just shared, Joel. So as we're thinking about spiritual health, we kind of know, like, what the ultimate goal or what the aim would be. What would you say are some things we need to be aware of that would threaten our spiritual health? What are some of these, like, signs or signals that something is off? Almost like the dashboard of our car, the check engine light coming on. What are some signs that maybe something is a little bit off in our spiritual health.
- [15:34]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah, there's a. I'm kind of an ancient writer. Her name is Teresa of Avila. And Teresa of Avila wrote a really great book with this concept. And the concept is of the interior castle. The interior castle. So if I remember correctly, I think she kind of came up in the medieval kind of era. And so, like, the idea of the castle, you know, like the monastery, you know, Britt and I were just watching a movie, and in the movie they were. No, it wasn't actually. I lied, Shay. It wasn't a movie. This is so wild. You know where it was? I got my teeth cleaned yesterday, and I was at the dentist. That's where this was. And I was sitting in the lobby and at the. Or my dentist place. Place. They have the TV and they play like, House to Farm or, you know, like, whatever these like. Like HGTV like, shows are, you know, and it was like, I just saw this couple is looking for a house, but they want to have, like, horses. And so they're in, like, Pennsylvania, you know, and they go to a place and it's like a barn, but they walk to the back, and the. The gal who's shown the house is like, this is the most beautiful part of this house. And it's the original kind of. Of brick arches of the very first barn that was back there. That's like super ancient. Like, it looks like something and it's like in ruins, you know, and. But you still see, like, all the arches intact. And when I think about that example and I think about what you're asking about with, like, what are things that we need to be aware of with our spiritual health? And I think about a person like Teresa Villa, who wrote about the interior castle. I think there's the sense that, like, the things that we need to be aware of are the things that can erode our inner being and our exterior being. And the most scary things that can erode, like, our being are typically not the blatant things that are right in front of us. Like, we know the things that. That can destroy us, right? It's like. Like just absolute lust. It's like an un dealt with pride. It can be a. Addictions, you know, like that. Like. Like that. That stuff, right? But, like, I think there's other stuff that can threaten our spiritual health. I'm reading a book by a guy named Arthur Brooks, and. And he's talking about contempt, you know, And I think about our society, and it's like, gosh, we live in a world of contempt. And I think contempt is one of. One of those things can absolutely destroy our spiritual health. Contempt looks at another person, and it starts often from, like, I dislike or I disagree or I'm frustrated with, or we have different background. Right. And then it goes to, I hate that person. That person brings no value into our world. Like that. That is contempt, man. That. That'll. That'll destroy you. And the contempt grows from a small place. Yeah. It's left unattended. And so, like, what are these things? I think that a couple of these things are. Can be categorized as disordered desires. That we have really good desires. That God created us with. Food is a good desire. Working out is a good desire to be known and to know others. These are really good desires. I was just having this conversation with my son this morning before he went to school, and we're just talking about idolatry, and he's kind of walking through some things right now. And I was just like, you know, son, what idolatry ultimately is, is taking any good thing and turning that good thing into an ultimate thing that displaces God. And it's like, well, what are the things that we need to be aware of that threaten our spiritual health? I think it's stuff that. And, okay, here's another part. Like, I'm kind of thinking out loud with you, Shay. The other part about this is also, we think often in purely, like, earthly, physical kind of realities. And yet all the way throughout the scriptures, from Genesis 3 to Genesis 6 to Genesis 11 to Jesus in the wilderness, temptation. In fact, my new book, the Unseen Battle, it all talks about, like, spiritual warfare. You know, I think it's intimately connected to spiritual health. And in that, you have a real enemy who hates you, you know, who wants to see image bearers of God absolutely disconnected from the Lord. And I think one of the greatest tactics of the enemy is to present an exchange of dependence.
- [19:55]
Lisa
Wow.
- [19:55]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
To present an exchange of dependence. What do I mean by that? So this is what can threaten our overall spiritual health. That. That the spiritually healthy person is a person who's aware of their need for Jesus. So there's dependence on Christ. There's a dependence on the Spirit of God. There's just dependence aimed in the right place. What the enemy will often try to do is present us with good things that will try to become ultimate things, where our dependence is no longer on the Lord, but we find our dependence in being known. Right. In hanging out. Like, this is the conversations I'm having with all my kids right now hanging out with cool kids, being known as cool. Like, having the right things. And I think about even in my own life, you know, it's. It's desire to, like, love the Lord and to make a difference in the kingdom of God and then be deeply convicted that, am I actually trying to make the kingdom of God great, or am I trying to make Joel's kingdom great? Well, you know, and I think these are things that are in the interior castle in the inside of our hearts that can really threaten us that we need to be aware of. And so another last thing, and this is kind of. I don't know that anybody would be expecting this, but I think a threat to our spiritual health are things like boredom.
- [21:14]
Lisa
Yes.
- [21:15]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Right. Like you get bored, don't know what to do.
- [21:19]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [21:19]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
You start snacking on food, and all of a sudden that snacking on food becomes a lot of. And then it's like, oh, I've actually attached my dependence to food. Right. The gym is another great one. Like, boredom. It's like, man, I need to, like, do something with my time or whatever, and you go to the gym. Or like, boredom actually becomes a conduit to filling up the time. Because I don't think many people want to be bored. This is where the Netflix thing comes in. The whole idea of social media. You know, there was a time, my. Do you remember early, early on when you could actually get to the end of the scroll on Instagram and, like, you hit it and it said, congratulations. Like you.
- [22:01]
Lisa
Now, we're never caught up.
- [22:02]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
There's always gonna be caught up.
- [22:03]
Lisa
No.
- [22:04]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
And they. Whoever is the algorithm geniuses over there, they figured out real quick, they're like, first feature to go away. The all caught up feature. We never want you to be caught up ever again. You know, we will fill every amount of your time. And so I actually think that things like boredom can become a place where. Because we're not comfortable Right. With that and we don't know what to fill it up with, with in appropriate, healthy ways, can become conduits to really be detrimental to our spiritual health.
- [22:34]
Hey, everybody. Dr. Joel Mutamali here. I'm pausing today's conversation real quick to tell you something very important. One of the biggest concerns I hear from listeners, youth pastors, teachers, and especially parents is how do I actually help the young people in their lives who are struggling mentally and emotionally? If this sounds familiar, I want to share something powerful from our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors and Light University. They've put together the youth mental Health Coach Program. A biblically based, clinically excellent training designed to equip you with real world skills to support parents and caregivers navigating youth mental health challenges. This course walks you step by step on how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health struggles that young people are facing today, including anxiety and depression, to digital addiction and emotional regulation. You will also learn how to relate to them, how to respond to them, and when it's necessary to refer them to a professional. The best part, you can claim a full tuition scholarship right now, just pay a one time technology fee of $54 to get started. Whether you're in ministry or a teacher counseling or just feel called to help, this training gives you tools and confidence to make a difference in the lives of youth and their families. To learn more and apply, visit mentalhealthcoach.org.
- [23:59]
Lisa
Yeah, that's so good. I'm so glad that you brought up the enemy because I think as I think about, okay, what would Jesus want for us like spiritually? I obviously think about John 10:10, that we would have life and have it abundantly. But then it also talks about that the enemy has come to, to steal, steal, kill and destroy. And so I think even as you're taking inventory, as I'm taking inventory of my own life, of my spiritual health, to really sit before God and honestly process where is the enemy trying to steal, kill and destroy? What are those areas that, that is coming up in my life. And then also where you're talking about, you know, some of these other things like our, I think you said disordered desires or kind of trying to reach for those good things that can become ultimate things. I think there's a strong element too of self awareness, a little bit required here of just knowing like you're wiring. Because even in the example of boredom, each of us will be tempted to feel that boredom with different things depending on our personality or just season of life. As I was thinking about my own life, I wouldn't say this is like a 91 1, like red flag when I think about my spiritual health, but I would say this is kind of that initial like the check engine light just came on. It's to like go see a mechanic and like see what's going on. And for me it's going through the motions. I think when I start to feel like I'm just going through the motions and maybe even I'm doing all of the like, right Christian things. But my heart feels very disconnected from those things where I treat my like, relationship with Jesus as like a box to check or something, a job to do rather than like an overflowing of my heart and I feel myself start to go through the motions. That's when it's like, okay, I think there's a little bit of something off here. Another thing that I realized in myself too would just be like, if I have just a presence of like, dread that I have in like a few areas of my life where like, joy is just not really present, I feel like that's kind of another sign for me that something is off. But I'm really glad you brought up boredom because I think that that is something that is so true. And I know that a lot of times, like even in early, the start of an early new year, like a lot of people in like, get off social media or they're like, I'm gonna read my Bible in a year. And so you like, delete the apps or you do certain things and then you like, have to make peace with this, like, idle time and it's difficult, you know, so as maybe some of these things are coming up for us and we're realizing, okay, I think I have some areas that like, I really need to tend to. How do we invite the Lord into that space and how do we ask for his help rather than turning to scripts in our mind that are very shame filled, like, I'm such a Christian or I'm such a failure, or I'm letting God down, or I'm always gonna struggle with this. What are some ways that we can maybe even pray through that or talk to the Lord about not trying to like, supersede spiritually and like, because it would be really tempting, right, in our humanity to be like, I'm gonna do better. I just need to be stronger. I need to be more committed and more disciplined. But you've already told us, okay, we gotta come back to it's the spirit that started this. So how do we not turn to shame? How do we not turn to trying to be a superhero and get ourselves out of this mess, but really start to talk to the Lord about where we're at spiritually and start to see progress? What does that look like?
- [27:28]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Well, I would say that the way that you tackle it, because what you're talking about really is our tendency to use the phrase superhero, but this tendency to be self sufficient, totally independent. Yes, independent. We want to. And really, I think what we're trying to do, Shay, is we're trying to prove something to ourselves and to other people. Maybe we're even trying to Prove something to God. Which is kind of a wild thing to think about. Like, what do we need to prove? I think I always think about that scene with Job when God finally, it's like, who knows, like 30, 40. I am forgetting exactly how many, like, chapters and got silent, you know, Ain't seen a thing. This dude is going through it. He ain't seen it. And when he finally says something, he's like, like, hey, man, you better like, you know, get dressed, right? Because you better be ready because. Because now, like, I'm about to teach, you know, and it's like here we like thinking like, like it's almost like insanity. It's like, gosh, like we can prove something to God, you know, like, we can actually fix this on our own. And so I think that the answer to the self sufficiency question is actually greater dependence on God. It's actually greater love. And so again, this is the Jim Cross thing. It's so simple, but far from being simplistic. It's like, like, what's the answer? It's like, love Jesus, what's the answer? Like, actually embrace your weaknesses. What's the answer? Recognize you did not hold the world together. God does, you know, And I want to like, take a step back and just consider this, that you used a word shame. And I, you know, different people disagree. I want to always be honest. I think there are some theologians that might disagree with what, what I might say. But I, I think that, that the way that the English word shame has evolved, we have to deal with it as it is today, like how it's embodied and being used. And the way that it's used today, I do not believe it's. It is used in a way that is reflective of the kingdom of God, right? So I would say that shame actually is a tactic and tool of the enemy. And yet God does use something to draw us back to himself. And the thing that he uses is this. This thing called guilt. And so what is the difference between shame and guilt? I would say that God created humanity innately with a almost response system built into the neural fabric of who we are. That when we do something wrong, we feel remorse for that thing. There is a sense of guilt. There is this awareness that arrives, like, oh man, I've done wrong again a lot of examples with my kids, right? Just because I'm deep in the kids example. And all this stuff is very new. Like, just happened yesterday. Brought Levi home from lacrosse practice and we're getting home and he's like, my gloves just got Here from my new E bike that you know, he got for Christmas. Like, oh, cool. Gets there. And as soon as we get in, his other sibling comes over and is like, I'm sorry. Levi's like, why? He's like, I opened your package for you and I opened the, the gloves.
- [30:23]
Lisa
Oh no.
- [30:24]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
And Levi was so. Because, you know, it's like Christmas for him. He's like, he care and it's kind of a big deal, like getting Amazon packages and stuff. And. And I'm thinking about like, what is that thing that Liam had? The thing. Or you know, what is the thing that my other son had? The thing that my other son had was guilt. He recognized when he did that thing that it was going to hurt his sibling. It was going to, you know. Yeah. So there was another option that he could have opted for. And that's isolation. That's shame. That's hiding away. That's. Or it's. It's self defense. It's like, you know, it's gas. It's like, well, it's not that big of a deal, right? All of that kind of stuff. And so the Lord wants to use guilt and our life in order to draw us back to him because he wants us to be restored. He wants us to repent. He wants us to, to recognize these areas that maybe we've done an exchange of dependence, you know, and we need to go back to Him. These are the areas that we've been self dependent. Here are the areas that I need to return to, like my love and affection for King Jesus. And so that's one. Shame will lead you deeper into isolation. Shame is like the perfect tactic of the enemy because the. Often the outcome of shame is despair and loneliness and disconnection both from God and His people. And almost in an interpersonal way. Shame leaves you almost disconnected from yourself, which is odd. Shame leaves you disconnected from the. The truest authentic self of who you are and who you're supposed to be. And rather it reaffirms something that God has never said is true of you, nor should be true of you. And so I think that the way that we address this and the way that we process it, we process through a thing that I've often called a theology of remembrance. It's so simple, but it's like crucial that we remember that Jesus on the cross beckons all of us to himself. I think often of that verse Shay in Romans. It's like Romans 5, 8. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this while we were still sinners, not when we got our stuff together. Not when we, you know, did all the right decisions, not when we accomplished 60 of our Bible reading plan. Not, you know, it's like, no, like while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so I would just suggest in a way it's, it's even less about inviting God into that space, but it's about returning to God who has never left our side. It's about Jesus who experienced the full weight of sin, shame and death on a cross. So that you and I would never have to like willingly, intentionally live in the midst of that shame. Like, we can exchange that for the goodness and the healing that comes from King Jesus.
- [33:12]
Lisa
So anyways, going back to sanctification, which you kind of mentioned earlier, I feel like in my own life, in the day to day, it's very hard sometimes to see the spirit at work, to see tangible change that has taken place. But then I think you look back, maybe even, you know, from right now, think about how far you've come, how far the Lord has brought you since you first got saved. And you're like, wow, like I am not where I was, maybe I'm not where I want to be, but the spirit really is at work. And so as you think about maybe changes you're wanting to see in yourself, because I think that's really like the essence of what, why we set these goals, like you even mentioned, like the Bible reading plan, is that we're wanting to see change. We're wanting to experience change like in ourselves, in our lives, lives, or wanting like more of something less of something. We want more peace, less stress, you know, less anxiety, more like fun and joy in our life, different things like that. I do think as we're saying that we're not, you know, going to be like spiritual superheroes and that we're going to aim for perfection and do all this by ourselves. I do think there are some spiritual disciplines that are at play in this conversation because I do think there, there's some protection built in, into that. And as I think about different people in my life that are the most spiritually disciplined, I often do think that they are really spiritually healthy. Not because they're a slave to their spiritual disciplines, but I think they have really found what keeps them healthy. And so I want to talk about that for a second. Like these spiritual disciplines at play, I think one that I wrote down is like community, that we're transparent, with which I would, I guess the more like biblical term for this would be confession. So like confession at play. I think Sabbath is a huge one that I feel like has also really come back as, like, a spiritual discipline that our culture has kind of, like, unearthed as, like, this, like, lost commandment that we've kind of, like, let go. And so, yeah, what are some of those spiritual disciplines either in, like, your life or maybe, like, mentors that you've seen? Like, they have this, like, really locked in, and it has helped keep them spiritually healthy.
- [35:30]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Healthy, yeah. Honestly, there's something that I've started to do that an ancient wise sage, a friend of mine, her name is Shay Tate Hill, once said.
- [35:39]
Lisa
Oh.
- [35:39]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Oh, I know. That was a surprise.
- [35:41]
Lisa
I'm not expecting that.
- [35:42]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
I know you're. Yeah. So I think it was a while back, Shay, you said something about you're starting to do this gratitude, like, journal thing, right?
- [35:50]
Lisa
I got this from Jess Connelly. I have to give credit where credit's due.
- [35:55]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
I love you, Jesse. You know, I started to do that. I, I. And I've tried, like, so hard to do these different journal things, like monk journal, like, and, yeah, honestly, it's just, like, feels so overwhelming to me. Like, I just can never. And so, like, I have a very simple process now. I have a little journal that I keep with me, and there's nothing filled into it. It's just literally at the very top, I put the date, I put, like, what I did to work out. I did, like, if I did my cold plunge or my sauna. And then I write, like, the best part of the day, the worst part of the day, and, like, one thing I'm praying for, and then at the very bottom, I just draw, like, a line. Like a line. And then at the very bottom, I just write, like, the. The thing that I was grateful for, the thing that brought me, like, just joy or happiness, you know, in that moment. And so I think. And I. And I think this probably came from you as well, that concept of stacking gratitude. Like, you know, like, you're just daily, like, you're stack. You're all of a sudden, your eyes are being trained to see other areas of gratefulness that you typically would not be able to see. So that's one of them. The other thing is just daily Bible reading the best that you can. I've changed this year to audio, which is kind of wild. Has been really fun for me. Like, I've never done this before.
- [37:09]
Lisa
So you're listening to the Bible?
- [37:11]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
I'm listening to the whole Bible, yeah.
- [37:13]
Lisa
Okay.
- [37:14]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
And I literally just put it on my Bible app, and I just like, and like, you know, the place that I listen to is actually in the sauna. Like when I'm in the sauna and in the cold plunge and I just listen to the Bible and I'm telling you there are things that are popping up out of the text that like spiritual health, right? Like Abraham is consistently going to places in his like journey where it's suffering and it's grief, but he leaves those places with like plenty, with bounty basically. And what happens is, and this, that this is not like prosperity. This is just like a, a pattern. God's trying to teach his people is you think that you can save yourself and you get into that situation. This is the whole thing with Sarah and in Egypt and you know, which is wild. Abram, you gave your wife to like, what are you. What is wrong with you? And you're afraid for your own. Like the dude's a knucklehead.
- [38:05]
Lisa
Anyways, that was not the best moment.
- [38:08]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
That was not. And he did that twice, by the way, which is crazy. Right? So it's like he le. But then the text says that as he leaves, the Pharaoh gives him like all this wealth on his way out, you know, and well, why, why this is telegraphing something. It's telegraphing the Egyptian exodus because all the way, like hundreds of years later, when the Egyptian, when the Israelites are in Egypt and God tells Moses he's going to let his people out, he also says, and by the way, they're not going to be left, they're not going to go out empty handed. The Egyptians are going to hand them like all this wealth. And you're like, wait a minute, I've been prepared for this moment. This isn't the first time God has done this, you know. And so I think just like, like reading your Bible on a daily basis narratively, like as a story that is unfolding is something that is just going to encourage you in your spiritual health. It's like a pattern that it's not that you are these people, it's that you're recognizing that the eternal God, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, is still acting in similar ways on behalf of his people. People. And so yeah, I would say that's the other one. And then the, the last one is just community. You already said it. I would say it's community is have some people around you that they just don't think too much of you. They're just kind of unimpressed with you.
- [39:29]
Shea Hill
Right.
- [39:30]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
You know, I just love it. Like they just. You walk in like, no Matter how big the accomplishment is in your life. They're like, cool, awesome. Now why does your breath stink so bad? Or, you know, like, like, you know, like, you were in the same thing for like, six days, bro. Like, you guys to, you know, take. Are you okay? Everything okay? And I just think that those. Those people are really important for our spiritual health because sometimes we do have blind spots we cannot see for ourselves. So we're dependent on other people that love Jesus more than they love us to speak truth into our lives. Yeah.
- [40:04]
Lisa
And they're. They're committed to seeing. They want the spirit to have the best fighting chance to make up us the version of ourself that the Lord always wants us to be. And they care about that more than they care about, like, people pleasing and comfort and, like, saying the thing that we want to hear. And I think that's something that is such a gift. The older that I get is just realizing the friendships that I can be, like, the most honest about where I'm at. Those are usually the most flourishing friendships in my life. Like, not the superficial ones, but the ones that truly I can just be like, this is where I'm at, you know, and it's not buttoned up, it's not polished, but, like, this is where I'm at. And even, like, we had. We have neighbors that, that we have, like a annual Christmas dinner with. And one of the things that we talked about with my husband and then the other. This other couple, and we've all been walking with Jesus for a long time was like, every single one of us kind of expressed just, like, our woes of where we were at with Bible reading, of, like, where we were kind of at. We kind of all talked through, like, different things we've tried different things that we like plans. We've stuck to what we were trying to do, like in the new year. And that was just such a refreshing conversation, I think, to just sit amongst, like, fellow believers. And it didn't turn into, like, all of us kind of, like, heaping on, you know, like, negativity. It was just like, we've been walking with the Lord for a long time. And, like, this is easy to, like, forsake. Like, it is easy to, like, snooze that alarm or, like, let this rhythm go. But we were all able to kind of share, like, different things we've tried, different things that have helped us enjoy. And so that's another thing I kind of love of that I think is easy to forget is spiritual disciplines. They are a discipline. But I Also think it's okay to set yourself up well and do things that you enjoy. Like right now, Joel, like, you're enjoying listening to the. The Bible and audio, you know, and that's, like, helping you love that discipline because you actually like it, you know, and so figuring out what those things are. Another thing I feel like I would really like to try to do this year would be, like, prayer walks. Like, like, it's so tempting for me to, like, go on a walk and, like, throw in my AirPods and just, like, listen to something. It could even be, like, worship music. Not a bad thing. But I think trying to create more space for, like, quiet and actually intentionally trying to make prayer a practice in my life, I feel like movement could really help with that rather than just, like, sitting in my living room and being like, okay, I'm gonna try to pray now, you know, and so that's something I'm gonna try. Try this year. Another great thing I think is just, like, boundaries on your phone with, like, social media making space for, like, quiet just so you have, like, more time for the Lord in your life. Right. Like, I don't want my time with God to look like just like, my quiet time, and then, like, it's done, you know? Joel, as we. This has been so good. Thank you for your time. As we wrap up today, as people are listening and they're thinking about where they're at spiritually right now and where they want to be by the end of 2026, what is just one last, like, word of encouragement or nugget of wisdom for them to hold on to as they aim to be the most spiritually healthy version of themselves this year.
- [43:08]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah, as I was thinking about this, I kind of wrote this down, so I'll just read kind of what I wrote in my journal. I said, you know, spiritual health isn't about being perfect. It's about being persistent in our desire and dependence on God. Our health is intricately tied to his presence and provision in our life. And so I think I just want people to leave this conversation, maybe reframing spiritual health less about a thing that has to be achieved in totality and perfection, but something that is lived out in light of our, like, great need for the Lord, and He has given us his spirit to equip us to be able to live a life that is healthy, a life that honors him, honors ourselves, and then honors other people. Yeah.
- [43:57]
Lisa
That's so good. I am so grateful for this conversation, Joel, and I'm really excited that you're kicking us off with this new series and I'm looking forward to the rest of these episodes.
- [44:08]
Shea Hill
And now it's time for Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's Listener Mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. About Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child.
- [44:44]
Lisa
Child.
- [44:45]
Shea Hill
When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 ministries study guide titled Keep holding on as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.combackslash Lisa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, what is the Healthy Conversation contract that you've mentioned before? I'm going to pass it off to our resident counselor of the podcast, Jim Kress, to answer.
- [45:12]
Jim Kress
Well, the Healthy Conversations contract is simply that a contract for relationships that I came up with and then Lisa and I added to it to get very specifically, both biblically and practically, every relationship you have with a pet, with your kids, with a spouse, with a friend, every relationship has a contract. Most of us just aren't getting clear about the fact that we have a contract. It's like, like this I will tolerate. This is okay with me in a relationship. This is not okay. Especially in the more intimate relationship such as a marriage. The more intimate the relationship, the more rules there need to be. So we just outlined a bunch of things. There's, I don't know, 15 so different items in there that are based in research, that are very practical and biblically based. And if you'll go to the Show Notes, you'll be able to have that. The idea is, especially in a marriage, is to get that and begin to work through, take the guts of what we've done, all the points, and then literally sit down and write out your own contract. It'd be really cool. You could have that in your mind with your kids or with a good friend. Now what do you mean with a good friend? While there are people who say, you know, I've gotten really clear about this, it's not okay that you text me even though you're a good friend, it's not okay that you text me at 2am Part of that is is we have to get really, really clear. And if you want to, even in like the Healthy Conversations contract, have good boundaries, get the book Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. But you've heard me say that a boundary without a consequence is a mere suggestion. So a lot of these are not preachy. In the Healthy Conversations contract, I'm not trying to control you. I'm saying here's what I need to stay safe in this relationship. And that contract in each item in the contract might change clarity again. What happens in vagueness stays in vagueness. In all of our relationships, we want extreme, healthy clarity.
- [47:16]
Shea Hill
Thanks for listening to today's episode. I'd love to personally invite you to help share these therapy and Theology episodes with even more. Listen by giving a financial gift to Proverbs 31 ministries today, therapy and theology offers guidance that women can trust, not quick opinions and not noise when they're searching. Therapy and theology provides biblical truth that will help them take a steady next step, even in the most uncertain situations. That's the mission behind this work, and I want you to be a part. Go to proverbs31.org givenow to give today.