C (6:07)

Can I make a connection point to these? Absolutely. Back to, like, just the theological foundation of what you said that I think is so important. You know, when we think about the creation story with Adam and Eve, we often think about the last thing that's created is Adam and Eve. And it's this. You know, they're the pinnacle of all of creation, which I truly do believe. But I actually also think there's something else that's happening with the intentionality of the order of God's creative act that's actually a gracious gift that's given to Adam and Eve, and it goes right back to safety and connection. Notice right in the very beginning, God creates order out of the disorder of the world. There's a series of separations, and there's a rightly ordered world. And then the text says that God goes into the dust. The Hebrew word is adama, and he steps into the dust. Which I kind of love the creative, poetic aspect of this, that the great king of heaven and earth would in a sense, literally get his hands dirty, you know, to get into the dust and to form man and then breathe life into that man. But then, very interesting, takes and picks up humanity, man, and places them in Eden, which is on a mountain. And the Hebrew phrase that is put right there is the word nua. And that's an uncommon word for that moment. You would expect a different Hebrew word, but instead nu' a is actually the same word that's used of rest. So you have Adam and Eve that are placed in the Garden of Eden, and they're placed in a posture of rest. And the first thing when they come into existence is they experience a rightly ordered world. There's safety all around them. They don't have to deal with the chaos of an uncreated world. And then also it's in the presence of that safety that then true connection with the Lord can happen and connection with themselves can take place. So I just wanted to point out that this idea of safety and connection is actually built into the very fabric of humanity's origin story. And ironically, those are the two things that the serpent suggests. Right, the question of safety. Like, did God really say, like, does he have his best for you?

B (8:15)

The question of, can you really trust him?

C (8:16)

Can you really trust him? Right, exactly. And then the impact of sin is a disruption, a disconnection. Of intimacy and relationship.

B (8:24)

That's so good. That's really good. You know, one of my favorite verses in the Bible is the very last verse in Genesis 2 where it says Adam and Eve were both naked and they felt no shame. And I think part of that feeling of there's no shame, part of that safety, that connection, that purity in that is they had no other opinion to contend with but the absolute pure acceptance of one another and pure love of God. And so safety and connection are absolutely crucial. So let's go over a list and Jim, I'm eager to talk to you about some of these.

D (9:03)

Yes.

B (9:04)

About what can disrupt trust in a marriage. First is the most obvious, integrity. And so is this person telling the truth? Are they the same behind closed doors as they are out in the public? Jim, where are some other areas that involve integrity that you've seen break trust in a marriage?

D (9:26)

Yeah, you know, I think of the word lie and how people say, you know, it's bad if you get betrayed in a relationship, but if you lie to me on top of that, women have taught me this incredibly so that how much more toxic and painful just to be a lie. Talking about trust being broken. Well, look at areas. You talk about financial, talk about integrity. Financial integrity is a huge one. Well, I'm only hiding a little bit. Or robbing Peter to pay Paul or doing little bitty things like that. Financial integrity, obviously the big one, sexual integrity. That includes so many people have discovered women, many have discovered that there was maybe no external affair, but there was a secret life of pornography which absolutely breaks trust. And then the idea of sometimes it's just called emotional affairs or something like that. And that's the idea that someone has maybe even non sexually in a relationship. As you well know, kids can feel betrayed by it too. Like who was dad or maybe in some cases who was mom. But the idea that I'm crossing this barrier, the tighter the rules must be much tighter, the more intimate the relationship is. So like in a marriage, the rules are actually tighter and higher, if you will. There aren't less rules. So inside, looking at little breaches, I spell the word log right. Someone who's been lied to looking right at you, what's called a bald face lie. Oh, which is big. They omit. Well, you didn't exactly ask me that. I don't know. How old are you? Four years old. Playing that game like kids will do it. Maybe lying, omitting or gaslighting, which is obviously a term that we all know. So those are areas versus just Broken trust or lack of integrity. The middle one is the one I see to be often some of the most damaging, which is omitting is this game playing. And how do I know what to trust if someone's only going to answer what I'm asking them?

B (11:23)

Yeah, I think regarding what you just said, I think it's so much more painful to discover that someone hasn't told you the truth or they've told you a half truth, rather than them coming to me and just discover disclosing it. It's not that their lie is less painful, it's that the trust can be rebuilt quicker if they have the enough integrity to then not make wrong upon wrong by making me discover it, but rather just disclosing it in humility and repentance.

D (11:54)

Well, it shocks the system even neurochemically more. And we've talked about trauma. It shocks the system because out of nowhere you discover it. You might be on their phone or just millions of ways people discover it. And I always say very simply that one of the key questions if you're married, that if you discover something based on infidelity or lack of integrity with your spouse, your brain here also is wired for, well, had I not discovered it, how long would this lie have perpetuated?

B (12:23)

Exactly.

D (12:23)

And that's why people say, okay, you found it out this way or that way, Discovery or disclosure? The discovery is far worse.

C (12:30)

It's really interesting because what you both are describing also is an incongruity between what has been said and told versus what is actually experienced. And so like integrity, the Hebrew word, there's this Hebrew word siddiq, which means upright or righteousness, like righteous living. And integrity throughout the Hebrew Bible is actually presented as a person who is sincere, who has an upright. And I love the sincere part because it's not talking about perfection. Yeah. You know, so I think sometimes we, we load words with definitions and ideas that are beyond what the Bible actually gives it. You know, and so this might just be helpful for us to remember, like integrity doesn't mean a person who lives a perfect life. Integrity means a person who is sincere so that when and if they do sin, they're quick to come into repentance. They're quick, quick to come into confession. And so while the Old Testament has this idea of wholeness and sincerity, the New Testament almost like builds and develops the idea and has in mind an honesty that coincides with a progressive pattern of behavior that is reflective of what that person says that they believe. You know, so there's this, I Guess I would just simplify it by saying what you believe is what is lived out. When those two things are opposed to each other, then you have a lack of integrity.

B (13:52)

That is so helpful, Joel. Okay, so integrity is the first on the list when it comes to a trust buster in a relationship. But I want to go through quickly some of these others, and then I want us to unpack them. But I love a list because I think it's very helpful. Okay, so I'm just gonna read these. So integrity is number one. The second is competence. And competence means can this be person do what they say they can do? The third one is reliability. And this one's really important because if you say you're going to do something and you don't do it, that can be seen as a mistake. But if you say you're going to do something and you don't do it repeatedly, that becomes a pattern that's going to then tell the person that you know you're married to, they cannot count on you. And being able to count on your person, your spouse, your husband, your wife, being able to count on that person and make sure they're reliable is really important. The next one is compassion. Does this person want to sit down and listen to you? Not solve your issue, not jump in and give their opinions, but does this person really want to sit down? Jim, you've taught me compassion is calm passion to suffer with.

D (15:12)

And attunement comes in just real quickly to that. If someone is struggling with someone in a marriage with whatever, to literally Gottman and others speak so well to this, to literally just fine tune and tune into that with compassion. Remember on the word and Dr. Kristin Neff's written eloquently about this in her book self Compassion, that if I don't have true self compassion, like we talk about doing your own story work. And it will be very hard to have other centered compassion as well. If I'm not suffering with dealing with my own story, it's usually in her research, out of that self compassion, I can have other centered compassion.

B (15:49)

And one of my favorite statements that a spouse can speak to their husband or their wife is asking them, what do you need? Like, okay, so you told me about this hard situation, the struggle that you're having. What do you need? Do you need me to listen? Do you need me to hold you? Do you need me to, you know, be with you? Do you need some space? What do you need? And let that other person help inform you of what kind of compassion they need. The next is care And I think this is really stressing that, you know, that your spouse cares about what you care about. And if you got yourself into a situation like, I need someone to take me to the doctor, I need someone to help me change my tire, that the other person would care enough to make you the priority in that moment.

C (16:45)

Right?

B (16:46)

And so care is really important. And the next one is judgment. Is this person eager to point out things that are wrong, or is this person eager to build you up in a scenario that you need kind words? You know? But that judgment, that harsh judgment, I see this come out in marriages so much when one spouse tries to weaponize scripture against the other person.

D (17:12)

They could even weaponize therapy. Well, what about your daddy? We have that in the Healthy Conversations contract as an example. But go, well, you just need to do more therapy. You'd find out about your mommy issues. That's a big one. We'll see where they weaponize therapy, but

B (17:26)

we don't want to stand in judgment over our spouse. And then the last one is communication. You know, communication. There can be a lack of communication that will breed distrust or aggressive conversation, trying to force some kind of conversation that the other person isn't ready for. And I know we have a resource that's really helpful for this called the Healthy Conversations Contract, which you and I worked on. And we can get to that in a minute. But this list. Integrity, competence, reliability, compassion, care, judgment, communication. The reason this is so important to have this list is because your spouse may prioritize their list of all of these things differently than you. And it's important. It's a great conversation to have as we talk about fighting for our family, fighting for our marriage. If trust is the oxygen of our relationship, then we need to spend some time talking about where are there small breaches of trust and maybe even bigger breaches of trust. Okay, so, Joel, let's say integrity's at the top of your list. But of all of these different categories, what's next on your list?

C (18:42)

Yeah, you know what's ironic right now, Elise, is as we're talking about, you can hear, like in Charlotte, there's a storm that is absolutely creating a bit of chaos, and you can hear the sound, you know, so actually, for Brett

B (18:54)

and I, which is what broken trust does in a relationship.

D (18:57)

Zero doubt.

B (18:58)

It creates a storm, truly.

C (19:00)

It sure does. You know, for Brett and I, We've learned after 16 years of being married, we're going 17 now, that maybe the most important thing for us is communication. You know, and so just like that storm it creates distractions and it actually takes our attention away from each other into all these other things. And yet what we have found, and this is kind of funny, but we have found that when Britt and I go on morning walks together, right? And y', all, I've said this before, I'm not a runner for fun or a walker for no reason, right? But my girl, she loves to walk. It could be raining like a storm right now, or it can be 120 degrees and I'm like, babe, I'm Indian. I'll melt. This is not good for me. You know? And she'll be like, let's go for a walk. But when we go on that walk, I would say 70% of our marital conflict is just gone for the rest of that day, potentially for that week, simply because there was not monologue, like a one way conversation, there was dialogue. And so being aware of assessing and addressing, hey, there's a storm out there. And that's serious. What do we need to do now in light of that so that we can kind of have a bit of a orientation together?

B (20:06)

That's amazing. For me, it's reliability and care. And so those are.

C (20:13)

You kind of cheated by the way. You're supposed to do one, but you

B (20:16)

know, I know, but I've got the microphone right now. So there you go.

D (20:21)

You came up with a list. Let's be honest about that.

B (20:23)

Let's be honest.

C (20:23)

It's her list, let's be honest.

B (20:25)

But reliability, like next to integrity. Reliability and then care kind of can hold hands with that reliability. That is so important to me. When someone proves themselves unreliable, like if Chaz were to get into a pattern where I feel like I can't rely on him, that to me is going to create a major breach of trust. And it's interesting because reliability is important to you and important to you as well. But do you see how we have different priorities of things that either if that doesn't happen, that either it's a smaller trust issue, still a trust issue, but then it's a bigger trust issue. Now here's what's really fascinating. It's neat to give this list to your spouse and ask them, rank these in order of importance to you. And then you have your piece of paper where you rank them in order of importance. And then the two of you come together and look and see, because the mismatches on our list is gonna pave the way. You know where I'm going here, pave the way for. Why don't you care as much about this as I do, or for maybe you to say to your spouse, you're making too big of a deal of this, but if it's high on their trust priority list, it's gonna be a big deal every single time.

D (21:46)

Yes.

B (21:46)

So then here's the question. Think about Jessica as you look at this list. Where would Jessica, like, prioritize? Maybe after integrity, the next two things.

D (21:56)

I don't even have to think about it. I'm blindfolded on this one. Reliability. That's a huge. And I want to play the therapy part of therapy and theology for a while. We all know this, but let us state it again. That is that these issues that go on down like that, they are also, as you go through them, not just trust breakers or destroyers. They are trust builders. And historically, okay, we've said if it's hysterical, it's historical. I'm always going to be mindful of the current what's happening right now, like the storm outside we've referenced. But I'm saying where might they be? Huh. Interesting. Curious. Where might my spouse be in his or her story and where may I be? We don't have time to unpack that here. But where might you be also in your story, who was not reliable, who offered you no compassion, where there was no integrity? Go down your list. So think current, but also think historically.

B (22:50)

Yeah, that's really helpful, Jim. Okay, so after reliability, what do you think Jessica would put on her list?

D (22:57)

I would think care number, I think on the list is Jessica and I

B (23:01)

are wired very similarly. Yeah. Okay. What about Brittany, as you look at the list?

C (23:05)

So it's kind of interesting. So 100% would be reliability. Like, that's without a doubt.

B (23:10)

So is this a female thing?

C (23:12)

I don't know. I'm just.

D (23:13)

I think it is.

B (23:14)

Or is it an indication that it's a male issue? I'm just asking.

D (23:19)

I think it is foreign, experientially, anecdotally, far more with females of it's been overused, but that women can struggle more with the sense of safety. Am I safe? I think it is that way. I'm not talking about empirical evidence, but anecdotally, am I safe? Can I trust you? Can I rely on you?

B (23:39)

Yeah. So here's the beautiful thing about doing this exercise. Writing down these words in order of priority to you and then having Britt do it. And same with you and Jessica and me and Chaz. And then we can identify what are some practical examples. You could ask Brittany, what are some practical examples where you have Felt the trust being a little severed or fractured because I wasn't reliable, because I wasn't compassionate, whatever. And having that diamond, do you know

C (24:09)

I'm gonna be ready on speed dial for when that comes out.

D (24:12)

Can't wait. Cannot wait.

C (24:14)

This is a great idea. Also, like, you got me sweating a little bit.

B (24:18)

Okay, well, it's not that you need to have her give you an example of every single thing in the list, how you violated that, but maybe just one right below integrity.

C (24:27)

I think that's so good.

B (24:28)

Where is it? Like, where are there some concerns, Inconsistent patterns where you are not reliable. And Brittany, in her mind, could be telling herself this story because, remember, when hard things happen to us, when a trauma happens, or when trust is broken, whatever it is, it's not just the action, but it's then the story that I'm telling myself because of the action that you took. So it's not just that you weren't reliable this time, but maybe it's become a pattern. And now it's the story that Brittany tells herself about the condition of your marriage because the reliability isn't as consistent as she needs it to be for trust to be solid in the relationship. Yeah.

C (25:10)

And because this one hits home for me, I know what ends up happening is we live in a little bit of a dysfunctional dance. Right. Because there's the lack of reliability. But then life has to move on. So you begin to build coping mechanisms, and then things just go. And then in the back of my brain, I think, well, it's not a big deal, you know, like, of course, like, things will just move on. But that's the deep rooted seeds of kind of resentment and bitterness and contempt that will come out that will begin to fracture and erode trust in your marriage. And so I love this idea, Leigh. So much so that the next date night that Britt and I are gonna do, we're gonna do exact this.

B (25:41)

Like, this is gonna be well here.

C (25:43)

I know. I'm telling you, this was so good. I love it.

B (25:45)

See, I'm always looking for ways for Brittany to really appreciate that you work here at Property 31 Ministries.

C (25:50)

Trust me, she does.

D (25:51)

Can I do one pushback on that, please?

C (25:53)

Yes, please. Oh, wow.

D (25:54)

It's light. It's light. I'm big on keep. You went there. And we're good buddies, too. A thought. Are you open to a thought?

C (26:01)

Yes.

D (26:02)

The thought is, keep a date night. The date night. Because you're opening up the potential of this list. I would go take a walk and then maybe sit down I'm being honest because of bilateral stimulation of the brain to not even do it on the. Take the walk and sit down and say, honey, are the kids done? You got a full house over there. Whatever. And then to sit down and say. And maybe say, here's the list. Let's go off and write and come back. Because breaking bread together on a date night, and it's a date night for recreation and all that. I would encourage people to ponder, to do this in a container, not just on a date night, because this may open up stuff. I mean, let's be honest.

C (26:38)

Yeah, 100%.

D (26:39)

Yeah. You want to know about reliability? I got a couple date night not fun anymore.

C (26:43)

And I'm like, this chicken parm is no longer looking good.

D (26:45)

You push the plate back.

B (26:47)

Well, that leads us right into the Healthy Conversations contract. Because we do want a safe container to have these conversations. The deal is, in my mind, it's better to bring it out into the light. And maybe we don't give like 100 examples of every single one of these. Hopefully there's not 100 examples of resemblance.

D (27:07)

I don't want a tsunami or like this. You want the truth. You can't handle the truth.

B (27:12)

Like, yeah, but pick one area that is on your list and on her list that you can have this good conversation. But, Jim, let's talk about the Healthy Conversation contract, because I do think that that helps provide a container for these kinds of conversations to happen. Because you're right. It's not meant to suddenly then cause a fight in your relationship. We're trying to fight for the relationship.

D (27:39)

I say that to people all the time. Even some sermons I've privileged to preach lately, couples, you know, people, we need to stop fighting in our relationship and start fighting for it. That's right, because we will do that. And this idea is this Healthy Conversations contract, which is available.

B (27:55)

Yes, it is.

D (27:56)

And people can get that.

B (27:57)

We'll put a link in the show notes.

D (27:59)

But as we went over this and all my intensive work that I do, if it's a couples intensive, I take everyone through this. The idea of this is, by the way, is, read this, what Lisa and I put together and then get a legal pad or something. And now write your own contract, largely based on research, largely based on the word of God. I'm not going to go through all of this. But it's the idea of getting the container safe that we can have these conversations. The word of God even says the word fitly spoken. It's like apples of gold in settings of silver Some people have never thought about this. So you jump in and try to start having a deeper conversation. And like, who? Where? What are we? Are you open to this now? So these are steps and guidelines to help construct safety that we can work through this. And it's funny to me. It tickles me when I've done it in couples workshops, walking around, or couples are writing their contract live. The number one thing in here, which is number one on here, time of day parameters for having a productive conversation. Someone says, you know what? I don't think God wanted me to see the sunrise. If he did, he to put it at noon. I'm just, you know, I'm a late night person. I call them. They're like Dracula at night. They hit the pillow and they just rise up and they're ready to go in a conversation. Others are like, man, I'm up at 5:30. Let's go all like that. Even here, we laugh about it, but we're sitting here with the temperature. And Joel had to leave the set several times because you're too hot, right? Yes, that's true. Just an example of people are coming in and going the time of day and watch couples fight over it. But I'm most alert in the morning and you should get up and get out of that bed. Well, I'm late at night. I'm a night person. But there are things in here that couples can kind of laugh at and look at and go, we've got to get the container safe to have productive conversations.

C (29:42)

I feel like you guys have been reading our, like, Brett and I's marriage mail, so thank you.

D (29:46)

It happens.

B (29:46)

Yeah, maybe we have.

D (29:48)

No, I'm kidding. We haven't.

B (29:50)

Well, I hope this is been helpful today. And of course, in the show notes, we will include the Healthy Conversation contract. And like we always say here at Therapy and Theology, we want to help you work through what you're walking through. And so as you fight for your marriage, I think this is a beautiful way, a practical way to build and possibly even rebuild the essential of trust.

A (30:18)

And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus name. We've seen the impact of sports sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 ministries study guide titled Keep holding on as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com Lisa to choose a child to sponsor Sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, are gaslighting and pathological lying spiritual issues? I'm going to pass it off to our resident theologian, Dr. Joel Mutamali, to answer this question.

C (31:24)

So one of the things that happens is we tend to separate the spiritual realm with the earthly realm. And so I would just suggest that what you're experiencing, whether it's gaslighting or lying or really any kind of vices of the flesh, that's what Paul describes in Galatians, is actually a reflection of an inward reality and a spiritual reality. The Bible itself actually doesn't demarcate or separate these two things. Whatever is happening from a spiritual context always impacts the physical context, and whatever impacts the physical context always has a spiritual relationship as well. I think often of second Timothy, chapter three, particularly verses one through five, where Paul gives this list of vices that is going to be descriptive of such tragedy and chaos in the world. He says, people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless and appeaseable, slanderous, which has been lying without self control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. And honestly, this is the one that stresses me out the most, having the appearance of godliness but denying its power. And so I would just simply say, are gaslighting and pathological lying spiritual issues? Absolutely they are. And this is also why God is so determined not to deal purely in behavior modification, because behavior modification will never deal truly with a corrupt heart. What we need is heart transformation. I think of Psalm 51 and King David. David's not like, hey, Chip and Joanna Gaines, y', all, able to come through and do a quick renovation of my heart. He's saying, my heart is wicked. Whack. It is wild and out. I don't need a renovated heart. I need a brand new heart. And from this brand new heart would come affections for King Jesus, which then flow in the words that we speak and in the actions that we live out. I pray this is helpful for you, friend.