C (5:26)

Yeah, I mean, I think I would want to start Lysa and Jim by just saying, like, this is one of the reasons why I'm so incredibly grateful for what we get to do. And, Lisa, for your vision for therapy and theology. We've talked offline before about this, but we do seem to live in an age where the therapeutic world, I would use the phrase, and Jim, you can correct me, we're at times becoming over therapized where there Is a perspective of therapy that can be hyper human humanistic, human centered. And this is where the theology part is so helpful because from my vantage point, is a way to rightly order our perspective. We don't want to be bent in. Martin Luther, John Calvin had this phrase in Latin, homo incurvis sensei, which is the heart bent in.

B (6:12)

You know you're gonna have to say that again, right?

C (6:14)

Homo incurvitus. And say it is this idea of humanity curved in or bent in upon themselves. And what the Lord wants for us is not a curved in bent in. Which kind of sounds like narcissism, doesn't it? It does seem very narcissist, or at

B (6:27)

least self focus, self preservation. At all costs.

C (6:30)

At all costs, we want to be open in an appropriate way. And so this is where boundaries, I think, are really important. Lisa, you wrote a book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And my first book, the Hidden Peace, there's a chapter in there on humble boundaries. Because I remember when we were working kind of through all of this, there's this concept in the ancient world that was so fascinating to me. And guys, when we do Haven Place events at your house, Lisa, which I absolutely love when we get to do that, we just got done doing one of those events. And I do this as an illustration. I want you to imagine somebody who's got an. There's an issue. And you think, well, I need to establish a boundary. And you establish a boundary. And then you turn to the side and it's like there's another. I gotta establish a boundary. And then you turn behind. I gotta establish a boundary. And you do it again. You turn again. I gotta establish a boundary. But what did you create? You created a prison.

B (7:20)

That's right. Because it's like four walls.

D (7:22)

You are right about that.

C (7:23)

Yes, exactly. And then what ends up happening is you think you're setting yourself free and you're equipping yourself, but in fact, what you've done is you've isolated yourself, you've imprisoned yourself. You. And so I think the ancient world helps us a little bit with this because in the ancient world of the Old Testament and in the New Testament, every city, it was incredibly crucial for the protection of that city to build walls all the way around that city. But a city that had walls all around it as just walls, well, they're barricaded in. So what would the city do? They would establish a gate at the, you know, entry to the city, and then also multiple watchtowers on the perimeter. And here's why the Gate allowed the right people to be opened and let in, but the gate also closed when the wrong people were trying to force themselves in. And then the gate was very much connected with the watchtowers because the watchtowers held individuals who their entire job was to look out into the horizon and assess the potential for danger or the potential for an ally, something good. And so, for instance, if the watch. Watchmen looked out and said, oh, that's one of our allies, that's one of our friends, they would send a signal back to the town, the gates would open up, and everybody inside would begin to prepare maybe a feast or a meal.

B (8:43)

It'd be like a celebration.

C (8:44)

It'd be a celebration.

B (8:45)

Like a welcome party.

C (8:46)

Exactly. However, if they look and they see enemy banners and they see raiders or something, they're like, close up the gates, get the archers on the wall, prep the military. Like, we gotta protect here. And I think what's happened sometimes is we have unilaterally, almost permanently closed the gates, and we don't have anybody manning the watchtowers. And we're not assessing the relationship in a way to determine, hey, have we made progress in an area where we can now, in a bit of transparency, honesty, but also wisdom and discernment, open up the gates to assess if there's a relationship that can be built and then act in accordance with what is actually presented to us? And so the entire idea of boundaries from a biblical theological perspective was always intended to keep us safe, but not to isolate us. It was to keep us safe, but also to have soft hearts, tender hearts, so that we can be open to the possibility of relationship and restoration if possible. The issue is discernment and assessing the situation.

B (9:58)

And sometimes it's not possible, and sometimes it's not possible.

D (10:01)

That's true.

B (10:01)

But I think, Jim, you have some good parameters for us to consider when establishing boundaries, because I do think communication is important. I think it's really hard. Like in the case of. I know there was a gal that came to our retreat this weekend, and our retreat was focused on forgiving what you can't forget. And with tears streaming down her face, she said, they've cut off communication. Meaning one of her adult children, they've cut off communication, and I don't even know why. Like, they won't talk to me at all. Like, the boundary is no communication. But there wasn't any kind of ramp up to help her or give her a chance to correct whatever she was doing so that, you know, the connection could still stay. Even if the connection changed. And so I do see this, and obviously this is nuanced in so many different things because there are times where you have to go no contact. And I appreciate that. But it doesn't mean that when a necessary boundary is needed that it's always no communication. You know, we've got to remember that, we've got to fit it to the scenario that we're in.

D (11:22)

I find, you know, as we've talked, there is a huge epidemic, it might even be pandemic going on. And many people who have researched it and are studying it are finding we may not know exactly what's going on. This pandemic of adult children, shall we call them, but who are adults just cutting off their parents. Watch. Not a boundary, cutting them off without a reason, going, no contract, no contact. And really no contract. Too hardcore. And I find what they are is they're in the school, the therapy office, or the church of TikTok and Reddit. Literally, they're getting this wisdom, if you want to call it that, earthly wisdom. Where. And I've talked with many and I said, well, help me understand. They think it's a boundary that they're going. They're isolating, they're alienation people, and they're not coming to. Stephen Covey took this from St. Francis of Assisi, who took it from the Bible, right? Took it from the Bible. Seek first to understand the other person. Wait a minute. Before you're understood, I'll say, well, have you gone to those parents? Because it's mainly adult kids cutting off their parents. Have you just. You're ghosting them, whatever. Have you said, here's what goes on. Here's the reason that I don't feel safe with that. And someone's like, nope, nope, I've just read an article or whatever. I don't need to explain anything. We're just done. I think they're going to my opinion, pay for that later as parents get older or whatever. But they literally will tell me in my office, there's no reason I have to do that. Like, what have your parents done wrong? Well, all parents. I'm a parent and a grandparent. We've done things to hurt our kids. But the idea. So I look through the lens, I ask them, Christian people look through the lens of practicing not just believing, but practicing agape love, of seeking the other person's highest good. Are you willing to be able to say with a boundary, hey, can we talk about this? We've said, are you open to a thought with parents? And say, here are Some things, it does come a lot out of the therapy world where people have done deeper story work and saying, hey, I'd say never go to your par. All my clients never go there with a ball bat or a judgment finger to come in and say, are you open to me sharing some things from childhood that were hard? Oh, there's three parents on this podcast right now nobody wants. Yeah, I want my kid to come and say some areas I missed, but they're coming in. As I say, be curious, not furious. And the parents, they just dive in on the parents versus saying, are you open to it? And if so, we know from Romans 12:18, don't we? As much as is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with all people there. Often I found no compassion even, or mercy upon the parents and say, okay. And giving them a chance to say, yeah, I could see that that was something I missed in childhood or whatever else. These. What? A lot of these adults who are children to their parents, they're reacting, they're not responding.

B (14:12)

Okay.

D (14:13)

So they're in a reactive mode.

B (14:14)

Let me play devil's advocate here for a little bit. Okay, so let's say that I'm the child and you're the adult parent. And I'm exhausted. Like, I'm absolutely exhausted by a behavior that this adult parent has done, like,

D (14:35)

whether it's childhood or current. Right?

B (14:37)

Yes. It's like, well, every time I'm around my parent, they are so critical. I just can't take it anymore. Or every time I'm around my parent, they tell me how I feel should be parenting, and they embarrass me in front of my spouse, they embarrass me in front of my children, and they make me feel belittled. Or every time I'm around my parent, they fill in the blank. Fill in the blank. Right. Okay. So we have this dynamic going on. So now, as a therapist, what can you say to me? Like, how can I still keep my boundary but not continue to put myself in a situation that has already over and over and over exhausted me, frustrated me, and honestly, it doesn't bring out the best in me. Now I don't have this situation with my parents, so I feel like I'm a safe one to do this.

D (15:33)

Many have that I've worked with.

B (15:34)

Yes. So tell me now as a therapist, like, help me think through. Because I'm sure there are listeners who will listen to this and go, yeah, but you don't understand the dynamic I'm in with my parents.

D (15:47)

All the Time and I may not understand it. So hang on, folks, don't get ahead of me. Because if you get ahead of me, you'll go, what just happened? And the simple answer is, obey the word of God. What is he talking about? Joel backs me up on this as a great theologian. We've talked about it here. Honor your father and your mother. And the Hebrew idiom there, at least at one level, is you honor what's honorable.

B (16:08)

So inside that's not you saying that you have to honor what's dishonorable.

D (16:13)

No, you never. That's actually dishonoring them. Agape love is to see that person in a moment. So pardon me here as I say this, to see them with an emotional and maybe spiritual dementia. And that's a gymnasium I use with people to think their thinking, including theologically. As far as bitterness or some other issue going on is going on. I want to look through a lenses of okay, and then we've said, you got a whole best selling book on it is a boundary without a consequence is a mere suggestion. So I want people to come in humble and say, mom and dad, children explain.

B (16:48)

Adults inform.

D (16:49)

Adults informed. I'm going to let you know that if you want us, here's the consequence for us to come be around you. If we're going to be around you and if you begin to give unsolicited advice to me as a parent or go over me and correct which has happened in our family, some things I know this one. To go over me and correct my grandchildren, our grandchildren in front of them, or give unsolicited advice or mouth off and make certain comments that are derogatory or whatever else you will lose, which we've said a bunch you're not going to get. I'm not giving you level 10 access to me with what I still call level one accountability. No accountability. I don't have to shake you or give you a book. I'm going to say if you do this, if this, then that, then you're going to lose access to me. And don't fire off a bunch of verbiage at them. And then you've got to put it into practice. And then they're going to judge you with your other siblings and say, and they call themselves Christians. But to say if you do any of these things that are toxic. Let me speak that real quickly. On one end, to have clear boundaries, because when someone shows you who they are, believe them, believe them. The other end is to give mercy, give parents a chance. This pandemic of writing them Often to say, hey, there are some things from childhood. Are you open to talk about it? Got a full stop real quick. You've been sitting there in therapy, good, good job. Or listening to Joel and theology and many good sermons. And you've dealt with all this stuff and your parents haven't looked at any of it. So you come in with 10 FBI files to your parents and work you've done, prepared. They're not prepared, right? So to come in with agape love and compassion and be able to say, here's some things. And if they say, give them a chance to react. And they go, we don't believe that and all like that, or that's not what happened. Pull back. And then you come in and this is how I land it. I don't know how it's going to land here. Give yourself permission to stay in relationship with parents. Now, if it's toxic, ongoing abuse or they sexually abused you in childhood, Jimbo is never going to say, get in the room with the perpetrator. Right? But inside, here's how I teach. It isn't this fancy. Give yourself permission to talk about news, weather and sports. This storm here in Charlotte, everybody is talking about the weather right now. I can meet them at that level and say, I'll meet you there. People say, well, that's fake. It's not fake. That may be as good as it gets. It's one of the dangers of the therapy and theology field that we know all this data and this experience and we've changed in Jesus and we come to those people who, like, they don't get it. So I'll give myself, we're gonna probably talk at this high level. We'll never go deep. And you get to decide if that's the only level you can connect on.

C (19:22)

Jim, I think there's a couple things I would love from, like, I wanna interact with you on a theology and therapy kind of conversation here. So one Lisa brought this up was the thing about honor, you know, and that famous passage like, well, honor your parents. I've been so interested in how our English words have taken on so much baggage. Because when we hear the word honor, there is a def. That is much longer that is running in our brains. And it might be a really good exercise. I do this with forgiveness. When you say forgiveness, what do you actually mean? Yeah, like write out a long paragraph definition of what forgiveness actually means to you. When we say honor your parents, what does honor actually mean to you? And what you'll probably find out is you've got Some definitions of that word that are incongruent with what the Bible actually teaches. And it's not that you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to exercise discernment in order to determine what is right and true and then surgically remove those things that are unhelpful and untrue as part of it so that you can get back to the truth of Scripture.

D (20:25)

By the way, the number one thing I hear tracking with you both, number one thing I hear when people say do that very exercise, what do you mean by honor anecdotally? Or they'll speak it. They think it means obey.

C (20:35)

That's exactly what I was going to say. And I go, oh, that's exactly what I was going to say is honor. Biblical honor, particularly with adult to, you know, adult children and parents, does not. It's not synonymous with or equates to obedience. Think about Daniel and the king. Daniel honors the king in posture, tone. And yet there is an ordered allegiance. Daniel's highest allegiance is to Yahweh. And because of that, he has to make actions in congruency with what his ordered allegiance is. And then the other thing, Jim, that you're talking about is my concern at times with the therapy deal is at times you go through all that work. Right. I'm thinking about a friend who's, who's walking through something right now, and it almost feels like boundaries end up becoming used as a tactic to hold the other person hostage, to almost negotiate a terms.

D (21:32)

Totally. There's a lot of power in that.

C (21:33)

Yeah. And then the goal isn't. It's not dialogue, it's monologue. It's like I'm gonna speak at you. And as I speak at you, because I've done all my therapy work and I've done the intensives and I've got the FBI file agents like you had described. Right. And you come and bring it to the conversation. The expectation maybe of the parents is not progressive sanctification, but perfection.

D (21:57)

Good.

C (21:57)

Right. And that to me feels like a disastrous kind of environment because I think of Chaz, what Chaz taught us, at least me. And I know he said it to you, Lisa, and it has just plagued my mind ever since he said it from aa. Like, if it takes you eight miles in, it's going to have to take you eight miles out. And I can't help but think about people who want to get helipatted out, they want to get, you know, rescued out. But then if you do the eight miles out, you haven't made progress. You're just in the starting spot.

D (22:27)

Well put.

C (22:28)

So from a compassion standpoint and an empathy standpoint, it's like, hey, amazing adult children. I'm talking to myself. Like, we've done some really incredible work. Now we have to regain perspective as we are opening up a dialogue with parents of recognizing we've done some more. This might be 20 years, 30 years, 40 years of patterned behavior. And so, Jim, like, how do we navigate that from a boundary standpoint, where I think, at times we're thinking, I need this list of negotiated terms like a hostage in order for me to even come back. Is that fair? Is that how it should be?

D (23:07)

I think, and this is not news to us, boundaries then become bullying. You can absolutely bully people with that. And in that, again, if we were sitting here and we were saying, let's go prepare for a half marathon, which my whole family, we did. Two of them. We really did. I completed, believe it or not, hard to believe. But if you do that and people say, you've prepared for this half marathon, and you go to your adult parents in this example and asking them to go to couch, you know, they call it couch to half marathon. That's ridiculous. And we've got all this stuff. We have a written contract. We've done all this therapy. I know I've just stated that, but I want to restate it. And to come in, it's just, quite frankly, unfair. I think it's very unchristlike to go and almost choke hold them and say, you better do this and do this and you've read 50 books on it. But to go in and be curious again, not furious, and offer an olive branch inside, the net result will be the same. Lisa, because it will come down to go. The person says, we're never owning any of that. That's not me. You know, I've shared with you my three G's in this. Don't grovel to a person. That means you get little and walk on eggshells, not eggs. Good job. It's a private joke. Don't grovel. Get real little in front of mom and dad or somebody else or a spouse. Don't grandstand. Which you get big, and you come in armed with five volumes of books and whatever. Don't grovel, don't grandstand. But be grounded as a healthy adult, grounded in Jesus, in the word of God, and some good therapy. But to be grounded often requires a third, a fourth G, which is grief. And sometimes it's like people are doing all these bullying, not Boundaries, because they're not gonna deal with their grief of, you wake up one day. Many have, and go, now I realized I came on too harsh and my parents are dead. You don't get those days back.

B (24:50)

Yeah. So I like to go back. You've taught me this Joel law of first mention. Like, where's the first time that we see a boundary mentioned or pictured in the Bible? And so, of course, that takes me right back to Genesis chapter two, where the first recorded conversation between God and man was, of all the topics God could have chosen, he picked the subject matter of a boundary. This is fascinating to me. So obviously, boundaries are important. And so the way that God establishes that boundary, I think, is so important. And the way that God establishes, he says to Adam, you are free. So there's this freedom aspect. In other words, boundaries help establish where freedom exists so that in those boundaries we can run free. Right. That we're not always so pent up and anxious and like, can I step over here? Can I step over there? So God says, you are free to eat from any tree in the garden. God is not being overly restrictive. He's not being manipulative. He's not even being controlling. He says, you're free to eat from all these trees. Right. Just not this tree that's in the middle of the garden. And it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And here comes the consequence. And if you do, then you will die. So do you see how God's not using that boundary to control another person, manipulate another person. He's actually giving the boundary for the sake of the relationship and for the sake of establishing what Adam is, can do, you know, And I think it's interesting then if you go over to Genesis 3, when the enemy is quoting back to Eve, classic. Did God really say, listen to how the enemy flips the script. The enemy says in Genesis 3 to Eve, did God really say you must not? The first three words, God said, you are free, but the enemy twists it and says, you must not. And so I think sometimes we've got to watch, you know, our perspective and our heart posture when drawing boundaries. And look, here's. I do not want you to hear me say at all that, you know, if you're dealing with someone with narcissistic personality disorder, if you're dealing with someone who consistently has been emotionally, physically, verbally, sexually abusive, that, you know, loosen the boundaries. And, you know, I'm not saying that, right?

D (27:33)

No, no.

B (27:34)

But what I am saying is sometimes, if we're honest, sometimes If I'm honest, I'll own this. Sometimes if I'm honest, I want boundaries in place because I want to control the other person to make them stop doing something that is more on the level of an aggravation, an inconvenience, a frustration, an unhealthy pattern. And it's easier for me to avoid the hard conversations by establishing a very strict boundary. And so I just think it's good to check our heart posture because if we're in the camp, you must not that kind of verbiage, that kind of thought process. I feel like that's exactly where the enemy wants to come in. You know, the enemy's whole tactic is to put something between two to cause a separation. The enemy wants us to be isolated. The enemy wants us to be separated. The enemy does not want us to fight for our family. The enemy wants us to partner with him to fight against our family. And so I just think it's good. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and remember the way that God established a boundary. You're free, you're free. You're free to do all of this, just not this. And then here's the consequence. And I feel like that's maybe a good place to land today.

A (29:03)

And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus Jesus name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 ministries study guide titled Keep holding on as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, what are some good questions to ask if you're wanting to have a check in with your spouse? I'm going to pass it off to Lisa Terkers to answer this question.

E (30:08)

Sometimes in marriages we can become like two ships passing in the night and everything starts to feel a little more transactional and the connection starts to slip. So here's a good way to do a check in with your spouse. Just some simple questions. Nothing incredibly deep or Profound. But just to show your spouse that you're thinking about them, that you care about them and you care about maybe some things that are stressing them right now. So, first question, what do you need? Next question. What is something I could take off of your plate? How can I pray for you? Is there something that I need to be sensitive about for you right now?

B (30:52)

Now?

E (30:53)

And what is something that you haven't been able to get around to doing that maybe I can help with? And then the last one, I especially love this one. Is there something you love doing that you'd like me to join you with next time? And here's why I really like that last question is because sometimes the things that I enjoy, I gravitate more toward asking my girlfriends because they're more, I guess you could kind of say girly girls things. But then recently, Chaz said to me, I know you often like to do that with your girlfriends, but what would you think about you and I doing that together? And my heart was so full of joy when he asked that question, because I love to go thrifting with my girlfriends. And I wouldn't say that that is ever on the top of Chaz's list. He loves to surf, he loves to fish, he loves, loves to work in the yard. But I've never had Chaz wake up one morning, go, you know what I'd really love? I'd love to go thrifting with you today. But when he, he noticed that I like to do that because I was doing it with my girlfriends often, and then he offered to go with me, not because it's something that he particularly enjoys, but because he knows it matters to me. Man, that spoke. Such love, such care, and such connection to my heart. So always good to take a time to do a little check in with your spouse.