Jim (5:41)

Sure you can. Yeah.

Lisa Terkeurst (5:42)

He's also become. Over the years, we have worked together in the role of counselor patient. Am I your patient?

Jim (5:51)

I would rather say client. That's what you say.

Lisa Terkeurst (5:53)

Client. Okay. Yes. So we've worked and you've been very.

Jim (5:56)

Patient, actually, in many ways. But that's different.

Lisa Terkeurst (5:59)

This is true. This is true. So whether. So that's how our relationship started. But then over the years, I started to recognize that more people needed to benefit from your wisdom. And so we started this dynamic of adding in conversations that maybe you and I would have in your counseling office. But we want to make it a conversation. We invite other people in because we found that people find this very beneficial. So you and I were talking off camera and we came up with this thing about the layers of betrayal. Joel, I cannot wait to invite you into this discussion as well, because you have let me know that betrayal is all over the Bible. And I know you have a lot to say about it as well. But let's talk about these layers. So the first layer is what I call slow growth betrayal. And the reason I call it this is because you know you're sensing something's off and you're picking up on red flags. But then your heart is so invested into this relationship and you wanna believe the best about this person. And so your heart and your head come in conflict. In my new book, I wrote about this, and I wanna read you what I wrote. The hardship of discernment is that it doesn't always give you details. But just because you don't know everything doesn't mean you shouldn't pay close attention to the red flags you do. See, I like to think of discernment as the very intimate way God cares for me, leads me, redirects me, warns me, and reveals things to me that I otherwise may miss on my own. It's almost like we have the facts and then we have the feelings. And God's gift of discernment kind of helps bridge that gap, but it doesn't always give you details. So I go on to admit that so many times when I'm feeling a moment of discernment, my brain and my heart will come into conflict. Especially when it comes to relationships, I very much want to continue. And that's the rub here. When this betrayal is a relationship that I treasure, that I very much want to continue. And I'm sensing red flags, but I don't want those red flags to mean what I fear they mean. My head and my heart come into conflict. And so I go on to say my brain will be firing off a warning, but then my heart will try to override it. Because I want to believe this person I love would not deceive me. I want to believe this person I love truly cares about me. I want to believe that this person really does have my best interest in mind, like I have their best interest in mind. And so my heart will make excuses to try to quiet down the warnings my brain is sending. And that's from my new book. I want to trust you, but I don't. So, Jim, you taught me something really important, because at first I was saying Am I living. Am I living in denial at this point? And you said, no, you think it's rationalization. Unpack that for me.

Jim (9:04)

Well, the brain, autonomically, we believe, and I do believe in the way of the brain research. It's as we've said on this podcast before, the brain's wired for confidence and knowing you don't have to do anything, it's going to go out and say, I believe this. I believe that most people.

Lisa Terkeurst (9:19)

So in other words, like my brain, I'm in a situation, my brain is automatically assessing are you safe?

Jim (9:25)

Without your even being fully aware of it. Okay, I remember not long ago we were taping. It was the, indeed the last series we did, either on therapy and theology or another video series that we shot. And outside this building we were in, the thunderstorms began to come through. So obviously a mind can think, wow, how big is the damage? I mean, is it rain? Is it raining at home? And yet we're present shooting videos, but the brain will automatically wonder, or is there going to be thunder coming again? As a longtime broadcaster with this incredible crew we have here, I'm thinking, when they gonna bust tape? When they gonna have to say, okay, we gotta stop, the thunder's too loud. I wasn't trying to think that. Matter of fact, I had to kind of keep coming back, like, stay present in the broadcast. So news comes at whatever level or whatever layer. The brain's automatically going to go out and say, I bet this. And I bet that it will try to fill in the blanks. I hope everybody will give oneself grace there versus somebody confronting you, saying, well, you just need to not think that the brain's automatically doing that. Then you go to the heart, that the heart is there. And I think along with the heart is story, is narrative that says, you had a book, remember the first of this kind of four books that you've got out. It's not supposed to be this way. When you start off the program today with, I literally said, oh, what a beautiful evening, and my house and I take a picture to literally immediately go in and find another device. Something has invaded, has entered that world. The human brain in that moment should not say, I knew it, I know exactly what's going on. It should go into a bit of rationalization and say, but maybe it's not what I think. Now, if there's been a long trail as we're talking about autopsying some type of betrayal, like, I saw this sign and this sign and this sign and this sign, and then there's this sign, then maybe you say, nah, I kind of knew. The brain rationally can say this makes sense. But you literally move from a beautiful scene, what we would call homeostasis, it's a steady state in its home, to going and find the device. So the heart's coming in to say, please don't let it be true. I don't want it to be true. And then what do I do? Those both can coexist.

Lisa Terkeurst (11:41)

So the reason I wrote this first layer is slow growth betrayal is because that is that season where you don't know for sure. It hasn't been disclosed to you. You haven't discovered that undeniable evidence. So, so it's this weird stage of I think I'm seeing this, but surely I'm not seeing this. And I remember my rationalization was we're in a season of lots of change.

Jim (12:07)

There you go.

Lisa Terkeurst (12:08)

So we were in a season of like the kids were growing up, some were going to college. Both of our, my ministry, his business were at a stage where they were like really growing and busy. We were hitting mid age or that midlife maybe for some crisis time frame. And so there were so many ways that I could explain away what I was sensing, what I was seeing, the red flags that I was picking up on. And so that slow growth betrayal for me was a season of just saying, yeah, it could mean that. But I'm so confident it doesn't.

Jim (12:45)

Well, and in that moment, like on an airplane, literally, you went and I heard the volition, the choice of turning off the autopilot. All of us have autopilot. I bet it's this, I bet it's. That may only last a few seconds, but you then turn the autopilot off and you were aware, I believe in listening to you, aware of the rationalization. Let us not make rationalization a bad word here. You know, it could be this. Instead of the brain automatically filling in the blanks, you began, I heard it right there. Filling in the blanks with some self talk, right? Some self counsel. Like it could be this and midlife and all like that.

Lisa Terkeurst (13:19)

And also I think there's one of two groups of people in this slow growth betrayal time. Somebody who wants to discover.

Jim (13:28)

That's a point.

Lisa Terkeurst (13:29)

Something bad has happened like this. I want to discover what this person has done. But then this other group, which is what I was in, I do not want to discover what this person could possibly have done. But I'm so convinced they haven't done this. And so those two groups of people will handle this Very, very differently. And one group of people is eager for evidence. The other is in that rationalization. Like, yeah, I see that. However, when I ask questions about it, I'm told that's not true. I want to believe it's not true. And so that's what I'm going to operate and I'll just explain away these other things. Now. I think part of that I had good intentions, of course, because I loved my family. I loved and I was experiencing enough good that it was easier to rationalize away the red flags I saw.

Jim (14:19)

And notice you went, of course, very organically out of just your marriage, by our words, frame our reality. We've said to I love my family. So I'm, as a counselor sitting there. Joel would do that. As a theologian, I'm listening to people's words. So now we've broadened out like this autopsy. I love my family. It was beyond the marriage at that moment, whether you meant that or not. There was a sense of, I'm thinking broader, pull out the, the camera and pull out of my family at that moment. And what are, what's the impact, if this is true, toward the family system, the whole unit?

Joel (14:52)

If I could make a couple connections, even theologically, this, the idea of kind of the slow growth betrayal, it sounds like it's actually also happening in four categories or four levels. And this is kind of a theological view of it based off of the Hebrew word. Leib. Jim, you were talking about the heart. And in our society, in our culture today, we have separated the heart from the mind. So the heart, we would think, is the place of emotion, you know, but the mind is the place of the intellect. The ancient Hebrews did not understand it that way. They understood that the lab. The heart. So every time you're reading my Bible.

Lisa Terkeurst (15:24)

When you say that word, you gotta, like, say it, because there's people taking notes. And if I was taking notes, I would be frustrated. I was like, what is he saying, Leib?

Joel (15:32)

L E, B is the Hebrew word transliterated with the English letters. And if you want to be really detailed over the E, you could put that, like hyphen, you know, kind of straight line over that E as an accent.

Lisa Terkeurst (15:43)

I am detailed. So thank you for that.

Joel (15:44)

Yeah, so that's just, you know, it's a little bit long. Anyways. All that to say. Yeah, all that to say that the heart, the way the ancient Hebrews understood it, was the wellspring of volition. Right. It's the place of both emotion and intellect. It's the place of both Thinking something rightly, feeling something rightly, and then doing something rightly. And in this place of slow growth, betrayal. I want to add a fourth category to this. What I'm hearing is you've got emotional reality, you've got intellectual reality, you have physical reality, and you've got spiritual reality.

Jim (16:24)

And I think it's including, like, why would God allow this to happen?

Joel (16:27)

Absolutely.

Jim (16:28)

Absolutely.

Joel (16:29)

You're sitting there in that room and then all of a sudden you see the device and you're actually going through, I think probably all four of those things. There's an emotional reaction that's happening. There's an intellectual reaction that's happening. That might be the reasoning, right? There's the spiritual reaction of maybe frustration with the Lord, like God, I thought, we're in such a great place, like, how could this now be? Why would you allow this to be happening? And there is a physical reaction that's happening. We know that the. As you guys have both have taught me that the body keeps the score. There's a great book on that. But I think it might be helpful for us to just also try to take a diagnosis or a diagnostic of our own selves and say, okay, where in these four areas is, in this slow growth kind of betrayal, do we start to turn off a valve or do we start to ignore this part of it? Right. So we might ignore the spiritual part of it or the emotional part of it and overemphasize the emotional or the intellectual.

Lisa Terkeurst (17:26)

And I can tell you what I did, okay? I think I turned off the other valves and turned way up the spiritual so that I could see in my mind, we have such commonality in how we love the Lord, we serve the Lord. There's no way. There's no way that that would be.

Jim (17:46)

Crossed, which could have been a spiritual bypass. I don't know if it was for you, but the idea of like a heart bypass, like the Lib, to be able to just bypass and rationalize it spiritually or some people. I've seen. We've all seen. Go quickly to Romans 8, 28. I don't know what's going on right now, but all things work together. Or Genesis 50:20, someone meant it for harm, but God meant it. And I have great compassion, Joel, as I say that and think about the scriptural side. And Lisa, instead of saying, well, you're just doing a spiritual bypass, I want to be gentle with my words. And I'm like, anything you do in that moment of overt crisis, which it is, all people say, does it make Sense to me, I say, everything makes sense, even if it's a spiritual bypass versus pathologizing it and saying, why, of course you could have done an emotional bypass. There's all kind of these. I love how you've layered these based on Lisa's layering and whatever route you take, I say, tell me more. Instead of like, what are you doing doing a spiritual bypass? I'm like, why wouldn't you?

Joel (18:42)

Yeah.

Lisa Terkeurst (18:43)

I love that you're pointing that out, Joel. So layer one is the slow growth betrayal, where things seem off but you're not really sure. The second layer is that moment of discovery or disclosure. That's the moment where you can no longer deny there is no, like, rationalization. Like, reality has hit you in the face.

Jim (19:07)

That's a relational 9 11. At that moment, you're at ground zero, whether you know it or not. We're all over our head. When 911 happened for real, all of us were over our head at that moment. And you're like, what has just happened?

Lisa Terkeurst (19:18)

And for me, my greatest fear had come true.

Jim (19:22)

Yeah.

Lisa Terkeurst (19:23)

I could no longer, like, dance around it.

Jim (19:26)

Why was it your greatest fear?

Lisa Terkeurst (19:28)

I think. I think that's such a good question. I used to say, you know, I can handle anything because this relationship will always be intact. And I would often hear of, like, bad potential things that could happen, but I would go, okay, I can face it because this relationship is intact. And I'm sure there were healthy reasons and unhealthy reasons for that. But, yeah, my greatest fear was that my family would fall apart. And having a betrayal in the mother, father, husband, wife relationship of a family that just seemed like it would blow apart so much. I wrote in the book this statement that broken trust complicates every bit of the part of love that should be comforting.

Jim (20:28)

Wow.

Lisa Terkeurst (20:29)

And, you know, there's so much about how God intended love to be that's a comfort to the two people participating in a relationship where there's love. Broken trust, betrayal complicates every bit of that. You no longer know what's true, what's real, what's not true, what's not real. You know, you thought you really knew this person, and that's why you trusted them so much. And do you really know this person or what happened to this person? Where was the break? I don't know.

Jim (20:57)

I call that relational vertigo. I have never had vertigo, but I've been with many who have, and they're like, you don't understand. It could be flash photography sets them off or something. And they're spinning. They've got to sit down or lie down. So I've used the term, you know, I've just made up, called relational vertigo. In that moment, you're like, there's no need to try to be logical. Good luck. In that very moment, everything spinning as it should.

Lisa Terkeurst (21:21)

And I remember in that moment of discovery, because for me, it was not a disclosure, it was a discovery. Like, I discovered it and kept discovering it and kept discovering it. But I remember in that moment, the first words that came out of my mouth were eerily calm. It wasn't this big explosion. I wasn't screaming. I wasn't yelling. I was. It was a very, like, almost unusual calm. And I just said, this isn't who you are.

Jim (21:54)

Who's the who?

Lisa Terkeurst (21:55)

To him? Yeah, I just said to. To him. Like, to my husband at the time, this. This isn't who you are. This isn't who we are.

Jim (22:04)

I asked that because some people would turn it internal and say, this is not like Lis. This is not who you are. This is, you know, whatever. I just wanted to clarify in this autopsy, but you were saying in your mind or verbally said to him, this is not who you are.

Lisa Terkeurst (22:18)

Yeah, yeah. But then some statements were made that I quickly went from an eerie calm to walking into my closet, curling up in the fetal position, and wanting the whole world to go away and just feeling like I cannot acknowledge this, I cannot face this, I cannot get up. And if I just curl into the fetal position and will the world away, maybe somehow life out there will fix itself enough to where I can handle it. But right now, I can't handle it. And it was a devastating moment for me.

Jim (22:59)

And took in that moment by your own narrative here. And, Joel, you see this. So obviously here. It took a moment, like you said, at first, I had this, which could be there, a response or a reaction. And then something happens, and I'm in a fetal. In the closet. And sometimes it's not always the first thing. Right. It's like, it takes time. We know that with real death, of course, a lot of this ends up being the death of a marriage or the death of a relationship. But people will sit, which I always think is so foolish. Someone had a casket and say she was just encouraged she lost her husband, and she was encouraging everybody at the casket. I'm like, well, give her some space. And then three weeks later, let's go visit her and see how she's doing.

Joel (23:37)

Yeah, this is kind of interesting. So as we keep going through this, it's like therapeutic analysis or, you know. And then I'm going to just keep doing some theological ones.

Jim (23:46)

Please.

Joel (23:47)

So, moment of discovery. I think the moment of discovery actually exposes the object of dependence. The moment of discovery, when you discover something and it shakes you at all those levels, it really highlights. It puts out in front of us what is the actual object of our dependence. And I think this is something that shouldn't be despised and it shouldn't be something that we are angry at ourselves for, but it is something we ought to be honest with. John Stott is a brilliant theologian, and John Stott has this incredible statement, quote that he says that if honesty and humility go together, then pride and insanity go together.

Jim (24:35)

Wow.

Joel (24:36)

So if honesty and humility go together, and they do, then perpetuating pride will lead us into kind of a chaotic, insane living. And so at this moment, when the object of your dependence is presented in front of us, the question is, what do you do with it?

Lisa Terkeurst (24:51)

Now, here's where that's complicated for me, because aren't you supposed to be in somewhat of a dependent relationship when you're married?

Joel (25:04)

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, we can go now or we can save this for just.

Jim (25:07)

A little bit later.

Joel (25:08)

But let me.

Jim (25:08)

We're on the edge of our seat here.

Lisa Terkeurst (25:10)

Let me point this out, though, because I'm just thinking.

Joel (25:12)

No, no, you're right.

Lisa Terkeurst (25:13)

I want to say, oh, absolutely, I depend on God and then all my other relationships. But it's like, if you're in that deep of a relationship, like, aren't you supposed to also be dependent on the Spirit? 100% dependent on God, but also.

Joel (25:27)

So let's do an autopsy of our favorite story in all of Scripture, Genesis 1 and 2, the story of Eden.

Lisa Terkeurst (25:33)

And the reason he says our is because we have studied theology together for thousands of hours. And we always go back to Genesis.

Joel (25:43)

Yes.

Lisa Terkeurst (25:43)

And back to Eden. We always, always.

Joel (25:45)

It always does. And I think it's really. And I said this. I was at an event once, and I kind of came to this conclusion that I'm really worried that the way we study humanity is actually upside down. We start with Genesis 3. So our anthropology, our study of humanity starts with the Fall. And it's not that the Fall is a bad place or like, that we shouldn't pay attention to it. But before we can even get to the Fall, we actually have to deal with the ideal of humanity. So our anthropology actually has to start in Genesis 1 and 2 so we can understand the devastation of Genesis 3 and the fall. And then we can make sense of what God is doing in the process of renewing and restoring all of creation back to the ideal of Eden. And so I want to go to Eden and look at how God creates everything in Eden. In Eden, all the created order matters. Adam and Eve are the pinnacle, for sure, of all of created order. But I think there's a purpose for why they're the last in the created order. And here's why. God is the one who is the one we're supposed to be dependent on. And all of creation, the sun, the light, the grass, the animals, all that stuff is reliant on him. And so when Adam and Eve come together, they actually learn mutual dependence. My language is going to be precise and important. They're learning mutual dependence that is actually first and foremost conditioned on two individuals that are dependent on God. So if you have mutual dependence with each other, that leaves responsibility for husband, wife, friend, friend to first and foremost be dependent on God. But when the dependence on God is fractured, instantly, the dependence on each other is broken as well.

Lisa Terkeurst (27:28)

Wow.

Joel (27:29)

Eve fractures her dependence on God when the idea is presented to her that maybe God's not good. And it was actually that fracture that takes place that brings into chaos relationally, Adam and Eve. And now we know all throughout humanity. And so I say that all to say, yes, you're supposed to have healthy and mutual dependence on each other up until the point we realize, wait a minute, the individual responsibility that we have to be dependent on God has actually been broken. And when that's been compromised, there is a. It's like a river that flows downstream. It's going to absolutely have impact on the human to human dependent relationships. And so that's where the chaos kind of happens.

Lisa Terkeurst (28:15)

And also I would propose in the Adam and Eve dynamic too, if you look at the consequences and when their eyes were opened, it wasn't when Eve took that bite. It was when Adam, who was right there with her, took the bite. And then the consequences were unleashed. So I would propose to you, like, both, 100%, both broke dependence on God.

Joel (28:39)

Absolutely. So anyway, that's a chain reaction.

Lisa Terkeurst (28:41)

It is a chain reaction. And we love. I mean, we have broken apart that story by word, phrase by phrase. Okay, so let's get back to these layers. Okay, so we have the slow growth betrayal. When you don't know what's going on, but you sense something is wrong. Then you have the moment of discovery, which is that complete shock and you just can't even function. Almost. Or at least for me, I just, I was So I just. I don't know. It was. It was truly just a moment of.

Jim (29:14)

Complete shock, which to me, I normalize versus what are you thinking? Whatever. No, that's how it should be in that moment, Especially to the degree that you had hoped for great things, including integrity and relationship. The shock, I think, should be bigger. Even if you thought, well, I knew this could happen. It's one of my greatest fears. Now we're at 9 11, and personally, relationally, and it has happened. Some people say, oh, I was so shocked. And it's like, because I was. I want to normalize that shock and awe.

Lisa Terkeurst (29:43)

And then the third layer of betrayal is the person's reaction. The person who betrayed you, what is their reaction? Sometimes their reaction will be complete denial. So then it's almost like they're doubly betraying you. They're doing this. They are actually, you know, they're doing this. And the facts are not lying, but they are lying and telling you that the facts you're seeing either aren't true or that you're crazy or whatever.

Jim (30:13)

Straight up gaslighting at that moment. Straight up gaslighting term there.

Lisa Terkeurst (30:17)

So it could be. It could be that the third layer of that betrayal is because they will not admit to the truth and, you know it's true now. Or they admit to the truth, but then justify it in a way that it's your fault. I would hope that they would, in that moment, own what they did and be very tender, but that's not the way it played out for me. And so that third layer is compounding to me, it compounded the shock because I realized in this moment, like, I know the facts now and you're still denying the facts. What else have you been deceitful about? And it just opened up. It was like an atomic bomb, then goes off when I realized, like, wow, it's this, but probably so much more. And I was terrified. That's where the shock turned into terror. And then immediately, like, super exhausted and just thinking, like, the world has tilted on its axis and I'm falling off, and I don't think there's anything that will catch me. And that's the way it felt then that fourth layer and this one. I had to do so many hours of counseling about this fourth layer. And the fourth layer is when I finally got up the courage to start telling a few other people and some of my close friends, they believed me and they stepped right in and they were, like, supporting me and doing everything they could. But then other friends turned on you. Didn't believe me.

Jim (32:02)

Didn't believe you.

Lisa Terkeurst (32:03)

Either they didn't believe me or they blamed me and justified the actions of the betrayer. And I remember I had one friend that just said, well, I mean, it makes sense to me. I mean, look how much you travel.

Jim (32:17)

As if people say some really dumb things. I'm sorry for that language. Stupid, foolish. Well, give me a Bible word. I think a lot of words, actually.

Joel (32:26)

I think foolish is probably good.

Jim (32:28)

Yeah, it's like not compassionate.

Lisa Terkeurst (32:29)

And really, are you saying that uneducated, you know, unwise. Unwise.

Jim (32:34)

But I would argue to imposit, which I have zero doubt about this, that going to say things to any of us, any of you listening or watching. They're in their own story. Dr. Kristin Neff's great book from the University of Texas on self compassion. If you look at that calm means with passion to suffer. They're not going to be compassionate with you, maybe like Job's three friends, to sit with you in that or to be curious and say, I have no words, or tell me more, because they're in their own story with their own fear they're going to be betrayed. Or lo and behold, they were betrayed. Maybe not in adulthood, but in childhood, they were betrayed. Who knows why there's so many betrayals. They are legion. Right. So inside it's like, whoa, what's going on here? From whence are they speaking? When they do that? Say, well, you know, hey, maybe you travel too much.

Lisa Terkeurst (33:21)

Yeah. And another common thing that people would say, like, here, I'm coming to them. And it was just a small group of friends. It wasn't like I was announcing it at church or anything. It was a very small group of very trusted friends. And I really thought we all had a common belief that infidelity in marriage was wrong, period.

Jim (33:41)

Sure.

Lisa Terkeurst (33:42)

But some people were just like, well, you know, there's always two sides to every story.

Jim (33:47)

It's one of the worst things ever.

Lisa Terkeurst (33:48)

I know what they did, but what have you done to cause this? And I just, I remember that compounded my shock. And then.

Jim (33:55)

And you did have two sides of your story. I just almost went, I've seen you be so wise so so often think, yeah, there are two sides to a story. Many of you today listening or watching, could say, this side is infidelity, my side is fidelity. There are two sides. But to kind of equal them and say, I mean, wow, the things people say.

Lisa Terkeurst (34:17)

And then the other thing, that was probably just incredibly damaging to my already fragile heart at that point. And again, I Don't want to make myself sound like a victim. I'm just autopsying the layers of this. But they were like, well, yeah, I mean, he did that. But, you know, like, you need to stay completely quiet about this and, like, you don't want to be the one to break up your family. In other words, by me reaching out to other people, asking for help, I was the one that was going to break up the family. That was so brutal on my heart. And that was another layer of betrayal that I just didn't even know.

Jim (35:00)

So you have a close person to you that is in a marriage. And many other people listening and watching will have that betrayed. And notice those. It's like a pebble in the pond, the original betrayal. And these waves go out, these ripples go out of. Now you're being betrayed by who you thought were close friends or intimate people or whatever who would care for you. I say that people are down on what they're not up on. It's like, are you even aware of the power of your words when you say that to a person? No wonder, back to the Jewish people to sit shiva, meaning stop your mouth from talking. Just sit and be with a person. That's something we can take away today. We need to be sitting shiva with people more and just be with a person and not try to offer foolish counsel.

Joel (35:47)

And something's happening while you're doing that sitting. You're being patient, you're being observant. You're listening. Not just from words, but emotionally, like, listening and experience.

Jim (35:57)

You're present with people.

Joel (35:58)

You're present with people you know. Elise, as you're talking about this, I think of the layers three and four, the person who has done the betrayal and how they react. But then the last layer of, like, the people that are around you and their response to it. And I think of the story of king David in two Samuel 14, 15 and 16. You know, kind of interesting, for all the amazing things of King David, it seems that him as a father, there's a lot of questions, a lot of question marks, right? But maybe one of the most significant betrayals for him is the betrayal of Absalom, his son. And so Absalom murders another son, Amnon, for a horrific reason. You can go into the text and read all of this in 2 Samuel 14, 15 and 16. But there's this moment of kindness and compassion where David calls him out of the wilderness and brings him back. And so think about the betrayer, right? Like, here's Absalom, the betrayer, and you would think that in that moment of experience, compassion, mercy and grace, that he would come back and have a shu. That's the Hebrew word for turning. And it's not just a turn, but it's a turning away from something and a turning to something. So turning away from your rebellion and your betrayal and turning towards faithfulness. And instead, it's so fascinating what absalom does, and 2nd Samuel 14 is he begins to sit outside of the king, the kingdom, like the palace. And as people are coming to get help from King David, he sets court out there himself. Long story, but there's a little phrase here that's fascinating. Verse 6. Absalom did this to all the Israelites who came to the king for a settlement. So Absalom stole the hearts of. Of the people of Israel. And the outcome of this moment is ultimately Absalom stealing the kingdom, David running away for his life, right? And living in that like this. Here's what Absalom's done. He has tripled down on his betrayal. And then the amazing story at the end of this is you would think that the ones who had been with David, who had gone through the wilderness, like, all of these amazing things, there's this sense that a lot of people betrayed David himself as a friend. But there's one person, it's this Gentile Ittai, who comes and he's like, I'm gonna go with you. And David's like, why are you? Why? You're brand new, you haven't been with. You're a gentile, you have nothing to do with our people. And basically he says, I see the king that you are. I see that the man that you are. And I and my people, my soldiers, we put our lot with you. Wow. You know, and so in the midst of this betrayal, there is gotta be this, like, honesty of, how do these people see? Are they seeing clearly? Are they unable to see? And if they're unable to see clearly the impact and the acts of the betrayer, then that tells us a lot on what we ought to do and the boundaries that we ought to create. But I would just say as an encouragement, I think God, in his kindness and his providence, often might bring an itai to you in that moment. And in our hearts, we want the people that were the closest to us this entire time to be those people. I would just encourage us to be like, okay. And just maybe there is someone that God, I would say, providentially places in your path to be that friend that you long for, that is able to see rightly and to see you for who you are and say, I'm going to put my lot with you, you know?

Lisa Terkeurst (39:30)

Well, and I want to say, I pray that you have that friend. I did have some friends in real life that did that. And if you don't, I want to be that friend to you. That's why I have done these therapy and theology podcasts and why we have, because we want you to know that you are seen and we understand the pain. We know how hard this is, and we don't want you to feel alone.

Jim (39:57)

And on a more experiential level in person. That's why we have HAPA in place.

Lisa Terkeurst (40:02)

That's right.

Jim (40:02)

I mean, that's like where we're really literally sitting with people, including sitting shiva and being and saying, I hear you, I understand you, I believe you. And we also say we're not just say, let's have a room full of. You use the term of victims, but let's call people to healing and recovery, no matter what the betrayer has done to you, for there is one among us who remains faithful, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Lisa Terkeurst (40:26)

That's right. And if you want more information about the work that we do at Haven Place, we'll put a link in the show notes for you. I want to close by saying this. There is a fifth and sixth layer. And Joel, you've already touched on this a little bit, the sixth layer. But the fifth layer is feeling betrayed by my own discernment and asking the question, why didn't I see this coming? Or why didn't I call that red flag, a really red flag. So it's almost like, how could I have betrayed myself? Like, I saw things, but then I didn't put it together. And that's a brutal weight to put on yourself. And I remember when I went to your office, Jim, and sat with this, you said, hey, Lysa, when you know better, you do better. And so that's also why. And I want to trust you, but I don't. I spend several chapters going through how do we find the roots of distrust? And what are these red flags that we should be looking at? And also talking about the severity of the different red flags. And then layer six of betrayal is ultimately, why didn't God stop this?

Jim (41:37)

Goes vertical, always does.

Lisa Terkeurst (41:39)

Where was God when this happened? And you may even have to wrestle through a season of feeling betrayed by God. As I wrestled through that, I thought, it's going to require an episode bigger than just a mention here, so stay tuned on a future episode for that. Jim, Joel, thank you for stepping into this betrayal topic and helping me autopsy the layers that somebody may witness and may walk through and may discover as a betrayal is experienced. And you know, I think just even having the knowledge that this is normal, it's normal to feel shocked.

Jim (42:20)

Please. Yes.

Lisa Terkeurst (42:21)

It's normal to feel so hurt by friends that don't support you. It is normal to have big questions about yourself, about the other person, about relationships and with God. So I want to leave us there and just say tune in for the rest of this series because I think we're going to have a lot more help for you and a lot more hope for you than you have grief and issues. Thank you.

Unknown Host (42:48)

Wow, that was such a great first episode in this new season. No matter the specifics, I know all of us can relate to that feeling of being caught off guard when someone close to us breaks our trust. Maybe for some of you listening today, you've never defined a breach of trust you've experienced as a betrayal, but now you have better language to really process things. I hope you found as much comfort in Lisa, Jim and Joel's wisdom as I did. Before we wrap up, I want to make sure you know about a couple of things. Like I mentioned, this episode may have helped you realize that you have more to process around this topic of betrayal. And there's a free resource by Lisa Terkers that I want to make sure you know about. It's called when the Person who Hurt Me Got Away with three Days to Moving Forward. You can visit the link in our Show Notes to download your copy next. You know we're talking all about trust on this season of the podcast, so if you're enjoying these conversations, you're going to love Lisa Turker's new book. It's called I Want to Trust you, But I Moving Forward. When you're skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow, and doubtful of your own discernment, you can get your copy from the P31 Bookstore by clicking the link in our show notes. Lastly, I just want to thank our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring today's episode. You can check out our show notes to learn more about them. Well, that's all for today, friends. Be sure to come back next week for another episode with With Lisa, Jim and Joel. Therapy and theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.