S7 E2 | What Do I Do With My Trust Issues?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapy and Theology – S7 E2 | What Do I Do With My Trust Issues?

Host: Lysa TerKeurst
Guests: Jim Kress (Licensed Professional Counselor) and Dr. Joel Mutamale (Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries)
Release Date: September 26, 2024

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1. Introduction to Trust Issues

Lysa TerKeurst opens the episode by sharing an excerpt from her new book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don't. She poignantly expresses the internal conflict of desiring trust in relationships while grappling with fear and past betrayals:

Lysa TerKeurst [00:30]: "I want to trust you, but I don't. My heart says I love you, but my fear says it's not safe. And fear has the louder voice right now."

This sets the stage for a deep exploration of trust issues, both in human relationships and in one's relationship with God.

2. Understanding Trust from a Theological Perspective

Lysa and her guests delve into the theological underpinnings of trust. Joel highlights the complexities of trusting both God and humans:

Joel Mutamale [03:39]: "We can't attach the full hope that we have of safety and our future and even stability in our relationships to finding other humans who will never break our trust because the reality is all relationships carry with it a bit of risk because we're having relationships with humans."

Jim Kress adds a nuanced view on trust within biblical contexts, emphasizing the intentionality behind biblical language:

Jim Kress [04:09]: "Our Bibles were not written in English. The Old Testament is written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Koine Greek."

3. Biblical Insights on Trust

The discussion transitions into a biblical word study focused on the Hebrew word for trust, bata. Jim elucidates the positive connotation of trust when directed towards God versus its negative implications when placed in humans or material possessions:

Jim Kress [05:33]: "When the object of bata is God, that word is always painted in a positive picture... every time the object of bata is humankind or objects, even right things, possessions, money, anything like that, it is overwhelmingly cast into in a negative way."

Lysa reinforces the importance of anchoring one’s trust in God to maintain inner stability amidst relational upheavals:

Lysa TerKeurst [06:55]: "We have a foundation to know there is one who will never break trust with us, and that is God."

4. Trust in Human Relationships

The conversation shifts to practical aspects of trust in human relationships. Lysa discusses her personal struggles and the broader implications of broken trust:

Lysa TerKeurst [08:05]: "Some of the deepest betrayal I've ever felt is a misunderstanding of what God allows... I quietly started to quit on hope."

Jim connects these personal experiences to biblical narratives, particularly referencing Luke 24 to illustrate how misplaced hope can lead to broken trust:

Jim Kress [09:51]: "Whatever is the subject of our hope has to have substance. If we put our hope in a subject that does not have substance, we're left with hopelessness."

5. Personal Reflections and Confessions

Lysa shares a therapeutic exercise she conducted with Joel, using the "Trauma Egg" method to visualize and process past traumas. This exercise helps identify recurring shame scripts that affect her ability to trust:

Lysa TerKeurst [22:25]: "I kept reiterating this shame script that I filter so much through... Don't inconvenience other people. You are kind of a pain in the butt."

Joel emphasizes the impact of these internal narratives on trust issues, highlighting how minor betrayals can evoke significant emotional responses due to past traumas:

Joel Mutamale [19:02]: "A minor can feel very major to the person, validating a narrative of unhealed trauma."

6. Strategies for Building Trust

The trio explores strategies to address and rebuild trust. Joel advises identifying and removing conditional trust in God, ensuring that divine trust remains untainted by human limitations:

Joel Mutamale [13:14]: "Often when we say we trust in someone or we trust in something, that trust simultaneously comes with conditions."

Lysa underscores the distinction between wise and blind trust, advocating for a trust in God that is informed and discerning:

Lysa TerKeurst [14:56]: "Putting our trust in God is always wise trust. It's never blind trust... Trust placed in God is always wise trust."

Jim recommends practical steps for listeners to evaluate and adjust their trust in human relationships, ensuring that it aligns with their faith and personal boundaries.

7. Navigating Trust Issues in Relationships

Lysa provides a relatable scenario illustrating how broken trust can escalate into trust issues:

Lysa TerKeurst [25:14]: "If they don't do it, then I'm going to start having trust issues."

Joel offers a clinical perspective on such interactions, emphasizing the importance of understanding underlying motives and the long-term impact of repeated disappointments:

Joel Mutamale [26:28]: "Most people I encounter have not done their story work... They haven't sat down and explored the facts and the impact of their story."

The conversation highlights the need for empathy and communication in repairing trust, advocating for a curious rather than reactive approach when breaches occur.

8. Conclusion and Takeaways

As the episode concludes, Lysa summarizes the essence of managing trust issues by balancing safety and connection in relationships. She encourages listeners to engage in internal dialogue to address their own narratives and trust challenges:

Lysa TerKeurst [33:05]: "Addressing the internal narrative was a first big step on working on the trust issues... internal dialogue is going to really determine whether or not we can move forward."

Joel and Jim add final thoughts on the importance of aligning trust with divine principles and being mindful of conditional trust in human interactions.

Notable Quotes:

• Lysa TerKeurst [00:30]: "I want to trust you, but I don't. My heart says I love you, but my fear says it's not safe."
• Jim Kress [05:33]: "When the object of bata is God, that word is always painted in a positive picture."
• Joel Mutamale [19:02]: "A minor can feel very major to the person, validating a narrative of unhealed trauma."
• Lysa TerKeurst [14:56]: "Putting our trust in God is always wise trust. It's never blind trust."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Therapy and Theology offers a profound exploration of trust issues through both therapeutic and theological lenses. Listeners are guided to understand the roots of their trust challenges, differentiate between divine and human trust, and adopt strategies to foster healthier, more resilient relationships. By intertwining personal narratives with biblical insights, Lysa, Jim, and Joel provide a comprehensive framework for navigating the complexities of trust in our lives.

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Additional Resources Mentioned:

• Lysa TerKeurst's Book: I Want to Trust You, but I Don't – Available at the Proverbs 31 Bookstore.
• Free Resource: When the Person Who Hurt You Got Away With It – Download via show notes.
• Mental Health Coach Training Program: Offered by the American Association of Christian Counselors. Visit mentalhealthcoach.org for more information.

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Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where the belief is that knowing and living the truth changes everything.

Transcript

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Foreign this is Lisa Terkeurst and you're listening to Therapy and Theology. Before we get into today's conversation, I'd like to thank the American association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring season seven of Therapy and Theology. I love the work that my friends and I get to do through this podcast that allows for therapeutic wisdom and deep theological insights to be accessible to anyone from anywhere, but we're really only able to scratch the surface. I know there are thousands of individual needs represented in our listeners as they navigate their own life and relationships, and that's why I always love recommending the American association of Christian Counselors. They know asking for help is hard, but finding help shouldn't be. They created the Mental Health Coach Training Program to equip you to know how to respond when a friend comes to you for help. Featuring some of the world's leading mental health and ministry leaders, this online video based mental health Coach Training program teaches you how to talk through the tough issues like what we talk about here on Therapy and Theology and how to respond to them. Visit mentalhealthcoach.org to learn how you can sign up for their Mental Health Coach Program or visit the link in the show notes to learn more. I want to start today's episode in a different way than what we normally do. I want to read you the introduction from, or at least part of the introduction from my new book. I want to trust you, but I don't. I want to trust you, but I don't. I want to believe that you have my best interest in mind, just like I do for you. I want to believe you don't have hidden agendas, motivations that are completely self serving or something going on behind the scenes that I would be crushed by if I knew about it. I want to believe that the good feelings I have when you're being kind to me will still feel good a month from now, a year from now. I want to believe you've told me the whole story and that I won't make discoveries later that make me cry and feel the brutal weight of regret. I want to believe that I won't lie in bed sobbing over the red flags I missed or chose not to pay attention to. I want to believe I can count on you. I want to believe that your love is real and your care is genuine. I want to believe I'll feel wise and not stupid for trusting you. I want to believe I'm safe with you and that you really are my person. I want to believe I'll be okay if I trust you But I'm scared. I'm afraid the risks are just too high. My heart says I love you, but my fear says it's not safe. And fear has the louder voice right now. So I want to trust you, but I don't. Joel, as you and I studied the topic of trust in vertical relationships between us and God, but also with relationships human to human, we found something from a theological standpoint that I think is really important for us to remember. Yeah, we do want trust in our human to human relationships, but we can't attach the full hope that we have of safety and our future and even stability in our relationships. We can't attach it to finding other humans who will never break our trust because the reality is all relationships carry with it a bit of risk because we're having relationships with humans.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah, I think that's so true. I remember as we're working on kind of the theological core for I want to trust you, but I don't. One of the things that really stuck out to is the intentionality of the biblical text, especially in the Hebrew Bible, from Genesis through Malachi, to use precise words for specific situations. And so I know everybody knows this, but I'm just gonna say, just for the sake of saying it, our Bibles were not written in English. You know, it's kind of like a funny thing, but also just important for us to recognize.

[Joel Mutamale]

I grew up with people who believed it was the King James Version. Just a program note.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah.

[Joel Mutamale]

That it was the original Bible.

[Jim Kress]

I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's. Yeah. The Old Testament's written in Hebrew and the new testamen was written in koine Greek. And with that, one of the fascinating things, when we're kind of researching and studying the concept of trust, we want to do a biblical word study around this. And so basically what you do is you take the English word and then you're trying to reverse engineer and you're trying to look at all the Hebrew words that are kind of connecting to that English word. And one of the fascinating things lyse was the realization that the Hebrew word bata. I know you're going to ask me, Joel, spell that for everybody.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Well, I actually know how to spell the word.

[Joel Mutamale]

Oh, wow.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I want you to do it, but I'm gonna have you do it just in case.

[Jim Kress]

Oh, man.

[Joel Mutamale]

She'll spell check you, don't worry.

[Jim Kress]

But ta. You can say it really well, too. And you read your book and you said the Hebrew words in the book as well.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yes. Without me having to call you that's.

[Joel Mutamale]

Right.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Can you please pronounce this before I read the audiobook?

[Jim Kress]

I'm so proud of you listening.

[Joel Mutamale]

Amazing.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so we can take a chance on me spelling it.

[Jim Kress]

I want to do it. I do. I feel like this is part of trust. I feel like this is a real life example of trust.

[Joel Mutamale]

Not rehearsed by not.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I'm super nervous and I may totally mess this up. B A T A H B tah.

[Jim Kress]

Yes.

[Joel Mutamale]

Got it.

[Jim Kress]

So proud of you.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That was stressful. That was so off script, but you.

[Jim Kress]

Did such a great job.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Thank you.

[Jim Kress]

Okay, so btah has an object. So all the words. So the question is trust. What is the object of trust? Well, throughout the Hebrew Bible, when the object of trust, bata is God, that word is always painted in a positive picture. We're being conditioned and trained to recognize every time we're thinking about trust in God, the outcome is good, it's fruitful, it's flourishing. Like these things are going to be positive. Interestingly, every time the object of bata is humankind or objects, even right things, possessions, money, anything like that, it is overwhelmingly cast into in a negative way.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Wow.

[Jim Kress]

And so when we begin to just think through how does God want us to consider trust and experience it? The goal is always that we put our full faith and trust in God so that. And I think this is an important part, so that when our trust in other humans is fractured or compromised or is broken, we won't be broken. Like we are not gonna be shattered because we have something underneath it that's actually holding everything else together.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yeah. I remember writing in the book, broken trust can be life altering, but it doesn't have to be life ruining. And I think the purpose of I wanna trust you, but I don't is not to give people a formula so that they can be in human relationships that are perfect. Because there is no perfection found in human to human relationships. You can, you can get better. You can learn how to repair broken trust. You can even learn how to set your relationship up for success so that the trust can thrive. Yeah, but there's never going to be a stability created within a human to human relationship that is perfect. Therefore, the promise of the book is that we need to learn to create an inner stability to be able to withstand the storms that will come. And they will come. And it's not just that we have the tools that we need. We have a foundation to know there is one who will never break trust with us, and that is God. Now to say all of that, it gets a Little complicated because sometimes is it okay if I make an honest confession?

[Joel Mutamale]

Kaplan with confession time. I love confession time.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

We talked in the previous episode about betrayal and the last layer of betrayal. We went through six layers of betrayal. The last layer was how could God have seen this happening and he didn't stop it? And so some of the deepest betrayal I've ever felt is a misunderstanding of what God allows. And so while I say my, you know, when I direct my trust toward God, he provides a stability. It has to be a faith in God that even when I see things that don't make sense or I don't see what I think God should be doing, I have to trust that God is trustworthy. I have to trust that God is good even when I don't understand what he allows sometimes. And I wrote this question in my journal recently and I am profoundly challenged by it now every single day. And it's this, how might my life look different if I really believed in the goodness of God, therefore the trustworthiness of God? And so I find that very fascinating. And I think it directly links to the amount of hope that we have in our life, in our relationships, and just in our life in general. And I think for me, one of the outcomes of having trust that was broken in very significant human into human relationships is that I quietly started to quit on hope.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah. One of the things that I think is so fascinating, Lysa, about all of that is this passage of Scripture in Luke chapter 24, especially as it relates to, like, what happens when we feel like God is the one who has broken trust with us. We feel like God has let us down in this area. And what I love about the Bible is the Bible does not hide any of these emotions, any of these realities. In Luke 24, I think the people of Israel actually believe that they have been let down by God. They've put all of their belief systems in the fact that Jesus was going to be the long awaited promised Messiah who's going to liberate and redeem them from the oppression of Rome. This is what Luke 24:21 says. It's these two men. They're literally this kind of amazing. They are in a state of confusion, but they're simultaneously walking with the risen Christ, you know, which is just an interesting thought. But in verse 21 they say this, but we were hoping. What are they hoping? We were hoping that he, Jesus was the one who was about to redeem Israel. And I think that maybe one of the things that we could do is we could replace that word for hope and say, that's kind of synonymous with trust. And this is just the biblical principle here. Whatever is the subject of our hope has to have substance. If we put our hope in a subject that does not have substance, we're left with hopelessness. So we can rephrase it. What is the subject of our trust? If we put all of our trust in a subject that does not have substance, we'll have broken trust and it will impact us in a negative way. I think the thing that.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Well, let me say something too that I think is fascinating about this is sometimes we will determine or try to make the determination whether or not God is trustworthy if we're looking for immediate relief for our greatest concern.

[Jim Kress]

Yes.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Sometimes I think it's like, okay, God, I will know for sure you're trustworthy if you give me immediate relief from my greatest concern right now. And the people then wanted immediate relief for their greatest concern, which was basically, they wanted a human king to come in and make sure that Rome no longer could be the oppressors, no longer could make these big, you know, like, sweeping laws that crippled the people and that threatened not only their livelihood, but even their sense of safety. And so they wanted immediate relief for their greatest concern. And when that didn't happen, when Jesus didn't come as the king physically, that would overthrow Rome in that moment, then they started to doubt the trustworthiness of God.

[Jim Kress]

One of the things I love about these conversations is it's Almost like the three of us, @ some points, it's like we're anticipating the very next thing that we're going to. And that's so perfect, because I think what I would love for us to maybe do, and maybe you can do this, you know, while you're just processing through this episode, is what this puts on display is that often when we say we trust in someone or we trust in something, that trust simultaneously comes with conditions. So it's a trust, but only if. And it's A, B, C and D.

[Joel Mutamale]

Very linear, kind of.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah, yeah. And so then something that is. Lacks trust or breaks trust is actually. It's because of our issues. It's because of our conditions that we've placed and theologically, biblically, what I'm just trying to try to point us to is that the conditions are necessarily bad in the human to human relationships. We're going to talk about them.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

They're sometimes necessary.

[Jim Kress]

They're actually sometimes, most often incredibly necessary. Right. However, and when it comes to God, when it comes to the perfect matchless, king of heaven and earth. We have to be very careful that we don't put our human conditions on the infinite and only bata trustworthy one who is God. And sometimes I think if we're feeling like God's let us down, God has betrayed us, God is right. Might be a good inventory to say, oh, in all honesty, in my human flesh I have conditioned my trust with God based off of A, B, C and D and almost write those things down, you know, and then lay it in front of the Lord. Maybe call a close friend of yours who you all like pray together and say, hey, these are some things I'm honestly struggling with. Like I don't want to have these as the conditions that I'm going to trust in God because God is going to surpass like all of my needs in the way that I need them, not necessarily in the way that I want them. And so again, human to human relationships are different. We want to be careful that we don't conflate a human to human versus a human to God relationship. But in the same way we have to also be careful we don't put conditions on God that is actually going to derail our faith and mess with the way that we see how life is actually unfolding for us.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I am very careful to always acknowledge that there's a big difference between wise trust and blind trust. Yeah, that's good with God. Putting our trust in God is always wise trust. It's never blind trust. Even if we can't see, we can know exactly who God is and we can trust that he has his every thought pointed toward ultimate good. And God is not freaked out by the ups and downs of life. God is not panicked that a human could possibly override his goodwill. No human is more powerful than God. And so when it comes to God, even though sometimes we say we have to have faith, that doesn't equate to blind trust because trust placed in God is always wise trust. Now with humans we have to be very careful. We always wanna have wise trust, but not blind trust. So Jim, I would love for you to make a comment because I know you coun so many people who have been in situations that they now have trust issues because of what they've walked through. And also when I say trust issues, I'm not saying like, ugh, you have trust issues like it's a bad smell or a bad disease, right? I'm saying of course we have trust issues. If what you said is true and it is that the whenever in the Bible the object of trust is another human or possessions or status, then disappointment is always right in that mix. So I just think, of course we have trust issues. I mean, I read some statistics, we've talked about them before, that the average American lies four times a day.

[Joel Mutamale]

We did podcast on that.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That's right.

[Joel Mutamale]

I thought it was a lot more than that for Joel. No, we tested each other, remember? Right here.

[Jim Kress]

My feelings are hurt.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I know.

[Joel Mutamale]

I'm sorry. I like to repair that with you right now.

[Jim Kress]

There's a rep. We need a repair.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Absolutely.

[Joel Mutamale]

We came up with a lot though, didn't really. I remember the podcast. We were like, holy cow, we were.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so that's a lot of deception that we're having wade through every day. And it's not that it's always like big betrayals. It's like if I say I'm gonna do something and then I forget or I don't get around to it, you know, that's also a form of broken trust because you didn't do what you said you were gonna do and I was counting on you to do it. And so that can create that disappointment. If that's a repeated pattern over time, that disappointment does grow into a form of trust issues. Course it could also be like infidelity, which we've talked about a lot on this show. That's what I walk through. And experiencing that can make you not only skeptical of the person that you had that major breach of trust with, but it can make you skeptical of all people. And so I know when people come into your office, you are dealing with trust issues. So comment about wise trust versus blind trust.

[Joel Mutamale]

Well, in some of the things you were just alluding to, I talk often about a person's motive may not be to really break trust, like I forgot to follow through, but their modus operandi, the method of operating still is a breach of trust. If back here, on one level there has been a massive breach of trust, including in childhood or before you were in relationship with that person. There's this post traumatic stress reality that someone says, oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, like financial infidelity. Not a big one even, but a small one. I forgot to tell you that I spent money on this or I said I would do this and I didn't follow through. Betrayal is betrayal. Now we want to basically right size it, but a person could think like Shakespeare, methinks thou dost protest too much. And often it is no, you had major breach of trust back here. So sometimes the minor can post traumatic stress wise. Take me Right back to where it is. And person says, I just did this. You're not knowing that person's story. Now in the idea of so in.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Other words, minor can feel very major.

[Joel Mutamale]

To the person, him or herself.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

If it validates a narrative that we've been carrying of maybe unhealed trauma from our past or unresolved issues that we have a narrative going like, don't count on people, because if you count on people, you're gonna be disappointed. And so this person's actions that may seem small, if they validate that narrative, it adds to a much greater picture and makes the betrayal seem even more significant.

[Joel Mutamale]

And seems and feels the person who might have betrayed in maybe a minor way, I don't know, can say, wow, aren't you kind of overreacting? I don't even believe. Just so you know, I don't believe in the word overreacting. It is. I am re. What is overreacting? I'm reacting. Of course we want to learn to respond and not react nonetheless, when trust is broken at some level inside, we've said often, I don't want to say this too much, but if it's hysterical, it's historical. So inside, you know people, most people that come into my office, most people I encounter anywhere, have not done their story work. I don't need to go dig into stats for that. I can tell you my experience. They've never taken from birth till yesterday and sat with a good friend, or I would argue a positive therapist. And to sit down and say, I want to explore the facts and the impact of my story. So most couples are coming together. The more intimate the relationship, the tighter the rules need to be, the more severe and strict the rules need to be. Like in a marriage, if it's not, it's what I call a mirage, it's not a marriage. So with that is I come in and if someone has betrayed me at some level with what's going on, I sit with couples all the time and I'll say, how do you think that impacted her with what you did or him? And then maybe do you know each other's stories and they don't? So that they get to know each other's stories and say, do you see that that might have hit a seven year old wound in her from her daddy. Naming, not blaming, right? And people don't even know they're bumping into stuff and not even know what they're bumping into. So I want, as you've heard me say, people to be curious, not furious. And to say, okay, I'm not sure what happened here. Yeah, I didn't follow through. Tell me more. What's this kind of this autopsy word we've used? Everybody listening or watching today can do that and say, okay, I don't want to respond or react here. Tell me more about why this feels so big to you. I really am here to listen.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, so confession time. I always like confession time.

[Joel Mutamale]

I like it, too.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

You and I did an exercise in your office. It was called the Trauma Egg, where I went through my story, and I basically took a big piece of poster board, drew an egg shape, which is what you told me to do, divided it up into little compartments, and then anytime I felt rejected as a child or maybe sexually abused or abandoned or I don't know what the other qualifications were, traumatized in any way, whether it was little or whether it was big, I was to draw a little stick figurine, little picture of it. Like a little picture of that pain that was caused in my childhood.

[Joel Mutamale]

And you know that as an author, they teach show, don't tell. So we use that in therapy to say, anything. You can tell me, why don't you show me? Like, draw a picture of it that activates a different part of the brain and the soul, even the body getting engaged. Yeah, I'm standing at the casket or the moving truck or the abuse scene. We don't re. Traumatize people, but drawing those pictures, it's called emotional literacy. We're like, oh, yeah, I feel things by drawing the picture.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so then I took all those little pictures that I had drawn on this poster board, and I stood in front of you, and you just said, just tell me about these pictures. Like, what happened here? What happened here? And I went in order and I went through. And I remember thinking, like, mainly you were just wanting to know more about my past, but actually you were listening for something. You were listening for a thread of commonality that wove throughout those stories from my past that would be feeding a narrative that now is a very, very sensitive spot. And I call it my shame script. And what I discovered is throughout the story, I kept reiterating this shame script that I filter so much through. So when other people behave in a certain way, I filter it through this shame script. And my shame script is don't inconvenience other people. You are kind of a pain in the butt. Like, don't ask other people to do things for you. It's just better if you do it yourself because you don't want to seem like you're asking too much of other people.

[Joel Mutamale]

And if we get into that old enneagram9 thing that we've talked about with you and Enneagram nines, whether people like the Enneagram or not, they fall asleep often to their own needs. They merge with another person. And underneath it, which you said, really, Jim, there's often anger underneath that. So inside me, I'm literally losing my identity. And yet you've said, well, that you're a rule follower. Like when you did that exercise, you push back first. I'll never forget, Billy, you want me to do this. And that's been a trait with you that I love that you'll push back, which I love because I trust you more when you do it. You're like, eh. And then you do it a. I mean, you did it marvelously. But inside there was a sense of almost like, make no waves, don't disturb anything, keep everything light. That. And then if crisis hits you, when you have behaved well, you are the most integrous person I know, really. I've seen you through your whole journey that I've known you. And then somebody or some people or situations are not in integrity, that'll shake someone's entire system because your operating system is, I follow the rules in a good way and I have integrity. That's where a lot of people think, tuning in can sit there and say, that's one of the hardest things for me because, no, I was never going to be unfaithful. And they're not being arrogant like your book on humility. They're not being fake. They're saying, I really do. I keep my end of the bargain. In this intimate relationship, often a marriage, and that one, especially when something happens here where there's a break, a breach in confidentiality, a breach in trust at any level, it literally is a 911 for this person because it's like their operating system. That's like a Mac versus a PC. And you're trying. It just doesn't compute.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

So let me tell you how this plays out for me. So let's say I actually get up the courage in a relationship to ask somebody to do something for me. This takes a lot, and I don't want to inconvenience them. And they assure me, no, I care about you, I want to do this. But then they don't do it. And so then I follow up like, hey, did you remember to blah, blah, blah. And they'll go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll get to that. I promise, I promise. So what's happening in my brain is if they do this, this will show me that their care for me is real. And if they don't do this, then I'm going to start having trust issues.

[Joel Mutamale]

Okay, why is that not true? For a moment.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

What do you mean?

[Joel Mutamale]

Being a person who betrayed his wife in pornography, that's in my story. Years ago, 20 years sober from that now. But there's a sense that why if a person. I could go really far afield by talking about adhd, which I also have. And sometimes in the moment, because of dopamine, I'm like, I promise I'm really going to follow through with this. Many of us have done that in relationships. So I'm not really trying to lie. I don't follow through. Paper remembers what the mind forgets. I don't set an alarm on the phone. Now I will know what time the ball game's on tonight. Right.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And you will not forget that or.

[Joel Mutamale]

Some other binge watching episode thing I'm doing. There are things that are important to me because those things you got listen, it fires dopamine in the brain. That's that chemical that's like, yes, hyper focused. So if I don't do that inside along the way, I may not. And again that no excuses may not mean to betray you. And I say sir or ma'am, did this person, your spouse, feel betrayed nonetheless? And I want to see does it stop us Romans even implies our sin should shut our mouths stop and say tell me more verses. When words are many, sin is not far away. That's Bible. And to say, you know what, I just gotta be honest with you. I did not follow through.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

But it gave you that. You were saying that dopamine hit when you're like, yes, I'm here for you.

[Joel Mutamale]

And I'm not lying. I mean it in the moment. I really plan, but dopamine's only gonna. You can't live on dopamine highs.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Right? And then what happens to me inside is the next time I go to ask you to do something, uh oh.

[Joel Mutamale]

What do you do?

[Lisa Terkeurst]

It feels risky to me.

[Joel Mutamale]

It will be risky.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And then I start to think, I don't know if I can count on you or not. And then if you don't follow through on that one, then quickly it becomes I really can't count on you. And then it turns into, I don't think I can trust you.

[Joel Mutamale]

Can I autopsy that real quick? I'm not trying to play therapist here, although I can a little bit. The first one you gave out Was, this is important. I don't know if I can trust you. Everything in communication is a statement or a question. You can find no middle ground. If you do show me me, it's either a statement or question. So when you did that first one about 35 seconds ago, and you said, I don't know if I can trust you, if you autopsied that, would it be true that you leaned a tipping point more toward, I actually don't think I can trust you because of what you did last time, or are you still kind of vague there?

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Well, I think I always try to remind myself there's a big difference between a mistake and a pattern.

[Joel Mutamale]

Good.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so a mistake is something we all make, and we should give grace for mistakes. The problem is when that mistake starts to get repeated, then it starts to become a pattern. And if I'm sensing that this is going to be a pattern in my life, then the breach of trust happens, and then trust issues come in. It was like, oh, no. Like, this is the start of something big. Like, it was something small, but it is turning into something big. Because I want to know I can count on my person. I want to know that if you say you're going to do something, you're going to do it. I want to know that if you say a statement that it's true. I can count on it. I can count on you.

[Joel Mutamale]

Your operating system, all kidding aside, we know this. Sitting with her is that I would set my clock by you if you say you're going to do something. I could not conjure up a category that you wouldn't follow through. Could you? You've spent hours with her. Do you find. If Lisa says, hey, I'm going to come through that, do you feel like, yeah, I bet she won't.

[Jim Kress]

Nope.

[Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. So what I'm saying is that's a lot of pressure. No, I was really like, your operating system is that. I think it's for a lot of people in the practical. And then when someone's on a different. It's like without you even knowing it, like, well, I follow through.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, well, then here's my secondary shame script. I would never do that to you. That's my secondary. It's like I.

[Joel Mutamale]

Is that true, though? Is it largely true that you would never do that?

[Lisa Terkeurst]

In my brain, I think it is. Now, I'm just as prone to making mistakes as anybody else, but I try really hard not to let mistakes become patterns. And so that's when I can get into trouble. So to break down just to Land the plane here on trust issues for me. And I think for most people, trust is made up of safety and connection.

[Joel Mutamale]

No doubt.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I want safety in a relationship, which means I know you are who you say you are. You're gonna do who you're gonna do, what you say you're gonna do. You're gonna tell me the truth, you're gonna be honest. That, in other words, you're not a risky person. This isn't a risky relationship. I'm not on the verge of getting hurt all the time. I also want connection. That's like the fun part of a relationship. Like, you know, I love you, you love me. It's good feelings. We have a good time together, all of that. Now, what can happen when we get our trust broken is we tend to take one of those to an extreme. So either we're so desperate to keep the relationship that we minimize our own need for safety and we ignore the red flags. We know what's going on, and we just kind of go, well, I'd rather dance with the devil I know than dance with the devil I know.

[Joel Mutamale]

There's rationalization. And notice the seesaw with her hands, too. It's just such a bipolar.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

So it's like, I want this relationship, and I will minimize my own need for safety. That's one extreme. The other extreme is, oh, I am going to prioritize safety so much that I do not want to take any risk. And so I diminish the connection in that relationship down to just the very, very bare minimum. Because the more connection, the more risk. And I want safety. The goal, when we identify that we are struggling with trust issues, and I want to say most of us, rightfully so, the goal is to bring those two things back into equilibrium. We want safe connections. That's what we really want. And as I pulled some of my friends on social media and I was asking them, what makes trust feel risky to you? These are some of their answers. The possibility of getting hurt again, wondering if the other person could potentially not be who I think they are, and fearing future betrayals, rejections, or disappointments by this person.

[Joel Mutamale]

I call that last one pre traumatic stress. We all know post traumatic stress, but pre traumatic stress is, I just bet something bad's going to happen. It's kind of that catastrophic thinking that can happen.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so I want to say, obviously we all have a form of trust issues, and it's not something to just label ourselves with, but it is something to be aware of. We have trust issues. Usually there are reasons we have trust issues. And so getting into another relationship is not automatically going to fix that.

[Joel Mutamale]

Many have tried. Many have tried looking for an external solution to their internal problem.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And even working on repairing trust within a relationship is not automatically gonna fix the issues. I think there's a deeper thing that we have to examine. And for me, like we've talked about examining those shame scripts and being aware, it's not just what happens to me, it's the narrative that forms because of what happens to me. And so addressing the internal narrative for me was a first big step on working on the trust issues. And the good news about that is it didn't require anybody else to do anything. And it gave me a sense of control. I can do something about these trust issues without requiring anybody else to do anything. Now, we are going to talk about in the next episode, what do we need to repair trust in a relationship. But this first, this first episode right here that we're talking about trust issues is absolutely crucial that we understand that internal dialogue is going to really determine whether or not we can move forward from here.

[Unknown]

Friend, whether you've ever said I have trust issues out loud or not, I hope today's conversation enlightened you to the truth that trust really is the oxygen of all human relationships. As I've been processing this, I keep coming back to this sentence that I've heard Lisa say. Not one of us gets to live this life unmarked by hurt. So not one of us gets to live this life without trust issues. I hope that brings you some encouragement and comfort as you listen today. Friend, you're not a trust failure. We are all on our own journey here. Before you go, I want to make sure you know about a couple of things. First, there is a free resource by Lisa Turkers that I want to make sure you know about. And it's called when the person who hurt you got away with three days to moving forward. You can visit the link in our show Notes to download your copy next. You know we're talking all about tress on this season of the podcast, so if you're enjoying these conversations, you're going to absolutely love Lisa's new book. It's called I want to trust you, but I moving forward. When you're skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow, and doubtful of your own discernment, you can get your copy from the P31 Bookstore by visiting the link in our show Notes. Lastly, I just want to thank our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring today's episode. Check out our show notes to learn more about them. I am loving these episodes so far, aren't y'all? Be sure to come back next week for episode three of this series with Lisa counselor Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.