Joel (5:16)

Yeah, I think, one, it's really important for us to just acknowledge that everything that you just described is so honest and God welcomes it all.

Jim (5:30)

Yeah.

Joel (5:31)

You know, and I want to be careful. We've talked before about spiritual bypass. I want to be careful about how I try to even approach this subject or this topic, because I think sometimes it's like we've heard the, like, I'm going to say phrases. Like, it even makes me feel uncomfortable saying it like this. But, like, the religious responses, you know, well, just trust God. Well, just believe he's got, you know, his best for you. Well, and all these phrases. And one of the things I think we've lost is, as we've read the Scriptures, is that the fact is that the Bible is written in story. How many times? If you just read through the Psalms. For the first time this year, I'm reading the Bible chronologically. It's been such a joy. And one of the things that is so fascinating is that the way the Psalms are interspersed inside of the narrative story of David's rise and fall, the kingdom's rise and fall. We normally go to the Psalms. It's like, read chapter, read chapter, read chapter. But so many of what David, right, is his wrestling with his trust with God. That's really what it is, right? God, you anointed me, you appointed me, you've put the kingdom supposedly in my hands, and yet I'm running from my.

Lysa TerKeurst (6:54)

Life in the wilderness, and my enemies are just constantly nipping at me and threatening me. I mean, that's a tough way to live.

Joel (7:03)

That's a tough way to live. So we have two ways of reading this one is like we read that psalm are the many Psalms of David's. Just flip the page and get to the next one. The resolve is here.

Jim (7:13)

Oh, there we go.

Joel (7:14)

Right? That wasn't the way it was written. There could have been days, years that passed while David was sitting in the tension of what he probably felt like was incredible injustice and his honest emotions that he's dealing with God. So I want to give us just a theological principle to consider as we're thinking about this issue that is honest and true. And here's the question. What does it mean to God when we have been sinned against? We typically think that when we've been sinned against, it's an issue of me, myself and I. I'm the one left holding this. I'm the one left dealing with these issues. I'm the one who's dealing with the consequences of the fallout.

Lysa TerKeurst (8:02)

That is exactly where I was sitting in that moment. Okay, so I give you permission to speak theology, and let's go. The truth that will set me free.

Joel (8:12)

Joel, Lyse and Jim, of all of created order, what is the one unique thing that is said that humanity has created? They're created in the image of God.

Jim (8:24)

Image of God.

Joel (8:27)

The specific words are likeness and image. They're created in the likeness. Genesis 1:26, 27. They're created in the likeness and image of God. Well, I might have talked about this before in different therapy and theology episodes, but those two Hebrew words, Shay, Shalem and Dimut. Shalem is spelled T, S, E L, E, M and D Mut is spelled D, E, M, U, T were words used in the ancient Near Eastern world exclusively of children of royalty. Right. I've got four kids. Liam, Levi and Lucas are my boys. I used to say they're little, and now Liam, the other day was putting on my shoes, trying to convince me that he can fit into them. And I was like, dude, he's 13. What happened? You know, But I still have it. And MJ is 4 years old and she is our little princess. And she came home one day and she came, she was crying, sobbing. And I remember she like came up and she's like, daddy, hold me. I was like, yes, baby, I'll hold you. And I held her. She went on to tell me this long story of how one of her friends said that her curly hair was ugly and it just devastated her. She's sitting there sobbing and she's crying and she's like, like, I could tell, like this personally deeply hurt her. And you know what I felt? I was so angry, how bad. I was so frustrated. And I'm like, God gave you that curly hair. And that curly hair is actually exactly what my mom's hair used to look like when she was a little girl. And if you put pictures up of MJ and my mom, they look almost identical. And here I am, her dad, and I've got this like a righteous anger in this moment. Okay, we were made in the likeness image of God. And if we're sinned against and if we bear the image of God, how does God feel?

Lysa TerKeurst (10:17)

As hurt as we do.

Joel (10:19)

Oh my goodness. As pained and as broken as we do. And there's a tension. And the tension is there's a heart of God that is compassionate and loving, that desires to see humanity come into repentance. The desires to see that the ones who sin against others would experience a contrite heart and an understanding of the devastation that they've caused, that they might turn away from their sin and turn towards God. And if that doesn't happen, there's going to be consequence for that.

Lysa TerKeurst (10:57)

Yeah, I love that thought. It rarely, it rarely occurs to me to put the word broken and God together, like broken hearted or broken, like, you know what I'm saying? Because I always picture God as like, he's steady, he's calm. And so it's hard for me to wrap my brain around that.

Joel (11:25)

Yeah, okay, so this is called anthropomorphic language. So I want to be careful in how I describe this. But if Jesus is the exact embodiment of God himself in the flesh, think about the iconic scene as Jesus is coming off of the Mount of Olives. And as he looks over to Jerusalem, what does he do?

Lysa TerKeurst (11:44)

He weeps.

Joel (11:44)

Oh, my gosh, he weeps. Why does he weep? All kinds of New Testament scholars debate why he weeps. I think it's actually quite simple, but as my brilliant theologian and therapeutic scholar friend Jim Kress says, things can be simple. Simple. But far from being simplistic, Jesus weeps. Why? I don't think it has anything to do necessarily with the cross and all this other stuff that's coming. There's a part of it. I actually think the connection to the cross is actually the impact of sin upon humanity. Jesus is here and he's seeing the devastation that sin has wreaked. You can just go through the entire Old Testament. How many times does it say that God is grieved by the sin of Israel? Why is God so adamant of the holiness of Israel that they're set apart for a purpose? Why is he so adamant against idols and false gods that the people. God can be grieved, he can be brokenhearted in the sense of which that if he wasn't, then we would have to kind of logically ask this question, then is he actually good?

Jim (12:57)

May I ask? I've never asked this. And so add moment, maybe, but maybe not. Ananias and Sapphira. And the statement is made, you have not lied unto man, but you've lied to God. And I do believe this is not a news flash for me. I don't go here too quickly with people, but there is a line, just like in this Bible, this red ribbon. There is a line that goes through for all of us, and it is all of us at some level who have been betrayed, that runs right through me. And how I have been betrayed, I believe, and it goes to the real one who has been sinned against, ultimately God. You don't have a problem with that, right? So the idea of just to get that vision of going, you know, they've betrayed me, no doubt, and standing behind me, bigger, the God of the universe, the great holy trinity is who has ultimately really been sinned against. And I can echo and hear David saying people like, that's. That's terrible that he would say against you and you only, have I sinned. And that's where I hear the echo of that. That certainly it is about me and it hurts. But as I grow in my Christian life, and I have been betrayed too, not by my spouse, but by others. And I want to sit and say, you know, they've betrayed me. But far bigger is they've Sinned against God. That has helped me at times to not just be so myopically focused on the abuse and betrayal and trauma that has happened to me, and it surely has happened, but to get a bigger picture and say they have not sinned against just me, but also against God.

Joel (14:32)

And I think it's actually even bigger than that because it's like, okay, even if you and I had the human power to enact the vengeance or the just. See, I think a lot of times we call it justice. We don't mean justice. What we're actually talking about is vengeance.

Jim (14:42)

Can I get a word, please?

Joel (14:43)

Like, who said I want justice?

Jim (14:45)

Hands raised, right?

Joel (14:46)

But it's like, really what I want, what my human heart wants is to execute vengeance.

Lysa TerKeurst (14:50)

Like, I want you to hurt in the ways that I've hurt 100%.

Joel (14:53)

And let's just be honest, I kind of want you to hurt a little bit more. Because I was in it because I.

Jim (14:57)

Wanted the Old Testament people seem to be able to do. I mean, I'm reading back through the Old Testament, third time in very years, and I'm going, okay. I mean, there was some eye for eye, and God seemed to. He seemed to bless it, go in there and just, I mean, kick, you know what, and take names. I'm like, okay, I want some of that. And yet.

Joel (15:13)

And yet we actually don't.

Jim (15:15)

Yeah, deeper in me is I don't. Because that's just against harming myself.

Joel (15:19)

This is spiritual maturity and this is becoming Christlike, because for a moment, just take a step back and think, okay, if we could enact human justice, vengeance, it's limited, right? It's finite because our brains are finite. And there's an infinite God who is truly just and truly righteous. And if he's going to actually deal with sin at the full capacity that he needs to deal with it, woe to them that will experience the justice of God.

Jim (15:49)

Amen.

Joel (15:50)

Now, if I reframe my thinking along these lines, it actually shifts my perspective on how I think of these folks that have sinned against me.

Jim (15:58)

That is so good. That's therapeutically accurate too, right? Totally.

Joel (16:03)

And hopefully I'm not just theorizing here. Let me take us to a text. Romans 12:19. Paul says, Friends, do not avenge yourselves. Instead, leave room for God's wrath. Because it is written, vengeance belongs to me. I will replace, repay, says the Lord. And then there's a but. But this is the paradoxical, upside down nature of the kingdom of God. If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he's Thirsty. Give him something to drink, for in so doing, you will be heaping fiery coals on his head. Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good. Now, I want to just preface that this is a principle, not a policy, because in verse 18, it says if possible, which means sometimes it's not possible. As far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. So what's being played out here, I think, is this principle that our proper response in these moments ought to enact the ethics of God's kingdom, which is compassion and grace and love. Appropriately. What do I mean by appropriately? You might not be able to feed that person. It actually might be incredibly dangerous and inappropriately and unhealthy for you emotionally, spiritually, and physically for you to be in relationship with that person. That's what 18 is saying. If possible. As far as depends on you. Pursue peace. Right. So what can you do?

Lysa TerKeurst (17:31)

Sometimes it's not possible.

Joel (17:32)

Sometimes not possible. What can you do? You can always pray for him.

Jim (17:36)

Not like that's a consolation prize.

Joel (17:38)

No, but you know what? It's gonna. It is. It is a cost.

Jim (17:41)

Yeah.

Joel (17:42)

It is a cost to your heart to pray for your enemy, because I.

Jim (17:47)

Don'T want to pray for that person.

Joel (17:49)

And if you can't pray for them again, this is. I'm stepping into dangerous territory because I'm acting like a therapist now.

Jim (17:54)

You are.

Joel (17:54)

Well, you know, if you can't pray for them, maybe you pray that. Like, that's the starting spot.

Jim (18:03)

David didn't mean imprecatory psalms, all 100% God.

Joel (18:06)

I can't. This is too hard. Like, I don't want to. And yet I want you to give me the grace to be able to someday.

Lysa TerKeurst (18:14)

You know, Joel, I have sat with that before, and I have thought to myself, no, thanks. I got a lot to pray about, but I ain't praying for them. You know what I mean?

Jim (18:28)

Right, right, right.

Lysa TerKeurst (18:30)

But then one day I had this thought that occurred. Anytime someone sins, they experience the pleasure of getting what they want, no matter the cost to other people. Okay, so there is a pleasure side to sin, usually. But sin always comes as a package deal. It always comes as a package deal. Sin comes with the pleasure of getting what we want, but it also comes with the pain of the consequences that are naturally built into that sin.

Joel (19:02)

That's right.

Lysa TerKeurst (19:02)

Like, sin is not void of natural consequences. Sin has built within it the consequences. And depending on, like, what those consequences are, there could be a serious level of severity to those consequences. And maybe they haven't unleashed Maybe you haven't seen the consequences of those unleashed in that person's life that day or that week or that year or even five years. But here's what Scripture says, Proverbs 1:31. They will eat the fruit of their ways and will be filled with the fruit of their schemes. And so I almost wonder if it's the reality that God will not be mocked and the consequences of sin, the minute we sin, that starts the process of unleashing those consequences, even if we don't see it right then, even if they don't experience it right then. But eventually they will eat the fruit of their schemes. Right. And so I wonder if praying for them is recognizing, yes, they have hurt me, but they have also unleashed in their life the pain of consequences that this sin will eventually catch up to them.

Joel (20:17)

Yeah. In the absence of repentance.

Lysa TerKeurst (20:18)

In the absence of repentance. And I almost wonder if the prayer is more like, God help them. Yeah, just God help them.

Joel (20:26)

Okay, so I'm gonna tell a story, and I don't want to tell the story right now because I'm, like, the theologian, and I'm supposed to, like, be calm, cool, and collected at all times.

Jim (20:36)

But you can practice humility right now. There's a good book on that. And tell the story.

Joel (20:41)

This is some months ago. I love going to the gym and working out, playing basketball. That's like a jam. One of the things that is the most therapeutic for me is actually sitting in the sauna. And the sauna is, like, my safe place. And I'll put my headphones on, and it's steamy in there, so people can't really see me, and I can just like, be by myself with my own thoughts, listening to nerdy podcasts about the history of Rome. So I get in there and, you know, there's these stools that are there to put your stuff on. And I wear glasses, and I've got my phone, and I can't bring my glasses into the steam room because they're going to crack. Like, you know, so I really put my glasses and my phone there when I walk in. And I walked in, and there are towels, like, dirty towels, like, wet towels all over the place. And, y'all, I'm not even joking with you. There are hooks, like, hangers all over the walls of this gym for you to put your towels on. Right. I'm not saying what I did was appropriate or good, but I am going to confess what I did. I got a little annoyed, and so I. And I don't Want to touch it? Because it's all wet. So I picked up my foot, and the place was kind of empty. There was a person who's sitting in the corner, but, like, far away. And I was like, surely that can't be this person's towels. And I had picked up my foot and I knocked him off. And then I realized my water bottle was empty and I need my water to be. So I walked back in to fill up my water jug really quick. And then I came back out and the towels were back on the stool. At which point I'm like, what is happening? And I've got my headphones in. Lucy, walk out. And there is a gentleman, older gentleman, and he looked at me and he said, why would you do that? And I looked at him and I had my headphones on, and I clicked the thing off and I said, excuse me, sorry. And there was another guy who was like an innocent bystander right there. And he was kind of looking at me, being like, don't you know? And I was like, sorry, excuse me. What did you say? He says, why would you do that? So rude. And I was like, oh, the towels are. Yeah. Why would you do that?

Jim (22:47)

Here it comes.

Joel (22:48)

And I said, well, actually, those stools. I'm trying to be very calm and collected. Actually, those stools are for you to put your phone or your glasses on. There's a lot of hooks here that you could put your towels on. He goes, yeah, but what you don't like. There's no sign up there. There's no sign up there that says the towels have to go on the hooks. And I responded, and this was not right of me. I reacted. I reacted, and I said, you don't need a sign. It's common sense.

Jim (23:14)

So you got hooked by his lack of using the hooks.

Joel (23:16)

Listen, he got heated. He then said, I'm much older than you. That's so disrespectful. Don't disrespect me.

Jim (23:24)

He went biblical on you?

Joel (23:25)

He did. And he's going at it, and something happened, and I can't explain it other than I heard my mom.

Jim (23:33)

Oh, I thought it was going to be the Holy Spirit, but no, maybe it was.

Joel (23:36)

And my mom had instilled into me, like, from the moment I can remember, you always respect your elders. It does not matter. You always respect your elders. And when he said, I'm older than you and you disrespected me, I was like. And I said, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir. I said, I'm sorry, man. I Disrespected you. And my mom raised me better than that. And I ended the conversation. I took my glass, I found a different spot to put it, and I went into the steam room, right? And I'm in the steam room, and I am having a war with myself in my brain steaming up in the steam room. And I'm like, I can't believe I let him off the hook. Like that. That was the most ridiculous thing. And then simultaneously, I'm like, oh. And then, right then, the door opened up.

Jim (24:19)

Guess who came in?

Joel (24:20)

The guy came in, and he came in, and he went right next to me, and he said, excuse me, young man. I said. And I'm like, can't really see. I got my glasses off. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, this is the same guy. Is he gonna start to fight with me inside of the. You know. And he said, I apologize, too. I was like, huh? And he was like, it shows what kind of man you are to have apologized the way that you did. And your mother raised you, repaired a rip. Yeah. And I was just like, but, I mean, that's that Romans passage, right? Like, don't repay vengeance with vengeance. Repay with forgiveness and kindness, and it'll be like heaping coals, right? And so simultaneously, this interaction took place, and the thing that I didn't think I want, and then it's like, man, that's the goal. The goal. You know? And then. But sometimes that doesn't happen.

Lysa TerKeurst (25:13)

That's right. I was gonna say, I love that story because I feel like it's such a beautiful example of you humbling yourself. And we reap what we sow. And so you sowed peace and humility, and you were able to reap then the peace and humility. And it affected him, too. But the same is true if he would have never come back and said anything to you. See, I think it's also a really beautiful principle that if we want peace in our life, then we have to set up ourselves to experience peace. We have to walk into a room bringing peace. And if we walk into a room and we bring bitterness, and we bring resentments, and we bring this sense that God's never gonna address their issues. And so, you know, it's better for me just to retaliate, you know, with my words, with my thoughts, with my actions, whatever, then that all of that breeds such chaos. And I want more than seeing that other person punished for what they did. I want peace in my life. Because even if I were to see the punishment, even if I were to see, quote, the justice. Even if I were to see how God addresses the vengeance with equal measures of justice and mercy, I may not like it, I may not agree with it, but just seeing that is not going to give me the satisfaction and ultimately the peace that I want in my life. What will give me the peace is for me to, yes, be responsible. Like, if someone has abused me, I need to bring it to the attention of the right people. I need to make my therapist aware. I need to make other people aware. I need to, you know, there are responsible things that you can do. But in terms of making sure that person learns the lesson and in terms of trying to control the situation so that person never does it again, those are things that are so outside of my control. And so I have to realize that God will address this with equal measures of mercy and justice. God will not be mocked. I don't have to see it to know that it is true. Because like I said, sin comes as a package deal, and the consequences for that sin are built in. Sometimes you just got to give it a little bit of time. But I know that even if I saw this other person getting punished, it's not going to give me the peaceful satisfaction of what I'm really longing for. I have to make sure that the hurt that that person unleashed upon me doesn't then become multiplied by me now taking that hurt and unleashing it onto other people. And so it's almost this thought of, like, okay, I'm not gonna give the power of self control, I'm not gonna give that away to the person who hurt me. I'm gonna exercise the power of self control so that the hurt stops with me, so that the abuse stops with me, so that the pain stops with me. And also, in so many times throughout the Bible, the very choices that the other person is making are the very choices that will eventually be the consequences. So, like in the story of Esther, you know, the story of Esther is fascinating, but Haman was going to come after the Jewish people, and he built gallows to murder Mordecai, one of the Jewish leaders. And the way that the story plays out is layered and nuanced and everything. But eventually Haman hung on the very gallows that he built to hang Mordecai on. God will not be mocked. And only God can address their sin with equal measures of justice and mercy. And if we want the mercy of God when he exercises the justice and against us, we can't ask God to then have no mercy when he exercises justice against Someone else. Right.

Joel (29:20)

Yeah. And the unique part of that Esther story is that when you're studying the Book of Esther, the irony of it is that God's name is never mentioned in that entire book. So here we are thinking, where's God? Where's God? Where's God? He's kind of hiding in plain sight.

Lysa TerKeurst (29:33)

Yeah. And sometimes God does his best work in the unseen places. And the last thing I'll say is this. Now, enough time has gone by, and time doesn't heal all wounds. It's what we plant in the soil of time that determines whether we are headed toward healing or toward bitterness.

Lysa TerKeurst (29:51)

Right.

Lysa TerKeurst (29:53)

But what time does allow is you to see how things play out.

Jim (30:00)

That's so good.

Lysa TerKeurst (30:00)

And truly, I have seen that what we plant, it will grow something. And so what we sow, we do eventually reap. I choose to sow wise choices. I choose to sow forgiveness. I choose to sow responsibility. I choose to sow love for my family. Those are the things that I have. I choose and I have chosen for many, many years. And I am reaping the beautiful fruit of all of that. Another person has chosen very differently. And as time goes on, the crop does grow, and it may grow slowly, but eventually the crop reveals a lot, and you will reap whatever it is that you sow. You don't have to know or hope that that's true. You can know it because it is Amen. And that is something that you can count on. Joel, thank you for your wisdom today and the reminder that we do need to pray for our enemies. And sometimes I think if we pray, even as far as praying blessings into our enemy's life, that's us asking God to position them to receive blessings. And often it's in that positioning that if they're going to receive a blessing and they have to be positioned for it, that that's really asking God, take their life, shape it in a different direct. And that's not saying what they did was right. That's not making excuses. That's not even being in agreement with how they live and what they do now. But it is saying, you already hurt me once. You're not going to hurt me again by turning me into someone I was never meant to be.

Unknown (31:47)

I'm so thankful for conversations like today, and here's why. As a Christian, it can be embarrassing or honestly, a little controversial to admit that you're struggling with trying trust in God. But not one of us is alone in these struggles. As I hope you discovered today. There is real scriptural and therapeutic hope for us as we sift through our own doubts and disappointments. Before we wrap up, I want to make sure you know about a couple of things. First, there is a free resource by Lysa Terkers that I want to make sure you know about. It's called when the Person who Hurt you Got Away with three Days to Moving Forward through this resource, Lisa will help you identify doubts you have about the Lord and make progress in trusting him through biblical truths that will never change. You can visit the link in our Show Notes to download your copy next. You know we're talking all about trust on this season of the podcast, so if you're enjoying these conversations, you're going to absolutely love diving into Lisa's new book. It's called I Want to Trust yout, But I Don't. Moving Forward when you're skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow, and doubtful of your own discernment, you can get your copy from the P31 bookstore back clicking the link in our Show Notes. Lastly, I have to give a shout out to our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring today's episode. Make sure you check out our show notes to learn more about them and what they're doing. Well, I think that covers it for today, friends. Be sure you come back next week for another episode of this series with Lisa, Jim and Joel. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes changes everything.