S8 E3 | Better Reactions Lead to Better Relationships

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapy and Theology
Episode: S8 E3 | Better Reactions Lead to Better Relationships
Release Date: April 17, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode S8 E3 of Therapy and Theology, titled "Better Reactions Lead to Better Relationships," host Lysa TerKeurst teams up with licensed counselor Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale, Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries. The trio delves into understanding how our reactions influence our relationships and explores strategies to foster healthier interactions.

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Understanding Reactions and Relationships

Dr. Joel Mutamale initiates the discussion by positing that improving our reactions can directly enhance our relationships. He emphasizes the distinction between reactions and responses, highlighting that while immediate emotional reactions are natural, they should not dictate our actions. Joel states at [02:12], “If we can learn to have better reactions, we'll have better relationships,” underscoring the importance of managing initial emotional responses to foster healthier interactions.

Jim Kress reinforces this by sharing his journey from external processing of emotions to embracing internal reflection through therapy. This shift, as Jim explains around [18:15], has helped him balance external expression with internal contemplation, allowing for more measured and thoughtful responses in his relationships.

Theological Foundations for Reactions

Lysa TerKeurst brings a theological perspective, referencing Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and its significance in shaping our reactions. She explains that loving God with all our heart, soul, and strength provides a foundational framework for our responses to others. At [05:17], Lysa states, “If our reactions are going to be rooted somewhere, what the Shema teaches us is where our hearts and minds and our souls, our strength... should be rooted in love for God.”

She further connects this to Matthew 22:37-40, where Jesus reiterates these commandments, emphasizing that our love for God should naturally extend to loving our neighbors. This theological grounding ensures that our reactions are not only emotionally intelligent but also spiritually aligned.

Identifying Reaction Types

The conversation progresses to identifying four distinct reaction types:

1. Exploder that Blames Others
2. Exploder that Shames Oneself
3. Stuffer that Builds Barriers
4. Stuffer that Collects Retaliation Rocks

Dr. Joel Mutamale explains these reaction types, illustrating how each can negatively impact relationships. He shares a personal anecdote about a bookstore encounter that influenced his understanding of these reactions, highlighting how individuals may react differently depending on the relationship context.

At [17:02], Joel introduces the Group Exercise to help listeners identify their reaction types within specific relationships:

• Lysa identifies herself as a "Stuffer that builds barriers" but strives to avoid this by engaging in regular check-ins.
• Jim acknowledges his tendency to "Explode that Blames Others" but works towards balancing honesty with peacemaking.

Strategies for Better Reactions

The trio discusses practical strategies to transform reactions into healthier responses:

• Regular Check-ins: Jim emphasizes the importance of proactive communication to prevent emotional buildup. At [35:20], he introduces the FANoR0S method—a structured approach to checking in that includes sharing feelings, affirming positives, expressing needs, taking ownership, and seeking repairs.

• Creating Safe Spaces: Dr. Joel Mutamale underscores the necessity of establishing safe environments where honest and peacemaking conversations can occur without fear of judgment or retaliation.

• Consistent Theological Alignment: Lysa reiterates that grounding reactions in love for God ensures that responses remain aligned with Biblical principles, fostering both honesty and peace in interactions.

Overcoming Common Reaction Pitfalls

The discussion highlights common pitfalls associated with each reaction type:

• Exploders that Blame Others tend to focus on accusations, creating resentment and distance.

  Jim shares at [26:49], “If somebody's not owning their stuff... it starts to create a lens of how I react... Maybe I should be critical of that.”

• Exploders that Shame Themselves internalize faults, leading to self-deprecation and bitterness.

  Lysa notes at [28:46], “I feel like clearly I did something wrong... I will become self-deprecating.”

• Stuffers that Build Barriers avoid addressing issues, which can escalate misunderstandings and emotional distance.

  Joel explains the consequences of barrier-building at [21:32], “That proof sometimes comes out as retaliation.”

• Stuffers that Collect Retaliation Rocks hoard grudges, which ultimately undermine trust and intimacy.

The Path to Healthier Responses

To cultivate better responses, the hosts advocate for:

• Self-Realization: Recognizing one's reaction patterns as the first step toward change.

  Jim emphasizes, “Am I trying to prove that I'm right or am I trying to improve this relationship?” [30:25]

• Balanced Honesty and Peacemaking: Striving for responses that honor both truth and harmony.

  Joel concludes at [24:09], “Our goal here is to get to a place in our relationships where we can be honest without exploding and we can also be peacemaking without stuffing.”

• Continuous Theological Engagement: Keeping one's heart, mind, and soul filled with God’s love and truth to sustain positive reaction patterns.

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Conclusion

Therapy and Theology Episode S8 E3 offers insightful discourse on how our reactions shape our relationships. By intertwining theological wisdom with practical counseling strategies, Lysa TerKeurst, Jim Kress, and Dr. Joel Mutamale provide listeners with the tools to transform their reactions into responses that foster healthier, more fulfilling relationships. Key takeaways include the importance of regular check-ins, self-awareness, and grounding one's actions in spiritual principles to navigate emotional challenges effectively.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Joel Mutamale [02:12]: “If we can learn to have better reactions, we'll have better relationships.”

• Lysa TerKeurst [05:17]: “If our reactions are going to be rooted somewhere, what the Shema teaches us is where our hearts and minds and our souls, our strength... should be rooted in love for God.”

• Jim Kress [35:30]: “FANoR0S... share a feeling, affirmations, and what do you need?”

• Lysa TerKeurst [28:46]: “I feel like clearly I did something wrong... I will become self-deprecating.”

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This episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone seeking to understand and improve their reaction patterns within relationships, blending psychological insights with deep theological foundations to guide listeners toward more harmonious and loving interactions.

Transcript

[Lysa TerKeurst]

This season of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Compassion International. Compassion brings real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing, all in Jesus name and through the generosity of sponsors. Visit compassion.comproverbs 31 or click the link in our show notes to choose a child to sponsor today. As an added bonus, when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide called the Beginning of All Wisdom. Now onto today's episode of Therapy and Theology.

[Shay Hill]

Hi friends, thanks for tuning in to the Therapy and Theology podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 ministries where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host Shay Hill and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lisa Terker, counselor Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale. Each episode of this season is going to help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today they're going to talk about different reaction types that we all have, anger and blaming. They will also be talking us through a chart at one point in this episode. So if you need a visual, make sure you check out our show notes for that. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners. By clicking the link in our show notes, you can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lisa, Jim and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lisa titled Trust is A track record 5 Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness. This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God. Guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting him and more because we help you work through what you walk through here on therapy and theology. I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lisa, Jim and Joel.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

So here's my theory. If we can learn to have better reactions, we'll have better relationships. Now obviously Jim, you have taught me that we need to shift from reactions to responses and that is 100% true. And at the same time, right when our happy gets bumped or right when something goes on that triggers pretty strong emotion in us, typically we're going to have an immediate type of reaction. So today I want to talk about how better reactions can lead to better relationships, that initial emotional response that we have. But also I want to unpack how our feelings are great indicators, but should never be dictators, how we act and react. You know, our character is managed in how we act, but our character is often revealed in how we react. And this is a biblical principle. Basically, what we have stored up in our heart is what will eventually come out of our mouth. So it is important that we tend well to what our previous reactions have revealed about things that need to be addressed in our heart. So, Joel, I know you always have some great theology, so I'm going to let you give us some biblical wisdom about reactions. And then I want to help you determine. There's four reaction types, and I want to help you determine what reaction type are you with different kinds of relationships in your life. So let's start with the theology today.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

So I think all of our reactions have to be rooted in some type of framework. There's got to be something that motivates that reaction. And often when we don't have the right source as the motivation of that reaction, then our reactions will end up in extremes, you know, And I know we're going to talk about that here in a bit, but I want us to take us back to what God's ideal is for our reactions and where they should actually be rooted. We're going to look at a passage of scripture, actually two passages of scriptures that are quoting each other. And there's some interesting Greek and Hebrew language stuff. I'm going to do just, you know, surface level to get excited a little bit about what the implication is for this. And it's a verse we've actually already looked at in a previous episode. So we're going to look at Deuteronomy, chapter 6, verses 4 through 5, once again. And it's the Shema and Lisa and Jim we talked about in a previous episode that this was the foundational verse, foundational teaching that the people of God always communicated to their children. You know, it's like we all have verses that you put as a statement on a coffee mug. You know, I think little Israeli kids were walking around with this in their coffee mugs. They probably couldn't drink coffee too little. But if they did drink coffee, and.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I can guarantee there was nothing printed on the coffee mug.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah.

[Jim Kress]

You know this is pre Yeti, right?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That's right, exactly.

[Jim Kress]

Okay, just check it out.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

But just follow with me. This is the idea. This is what it says.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

It says, okay, And Remind us of.

[Lysa TerKeurst]

The verse one more time.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Deuteronomy, chapter 6, verses 4 through 5. So it starts this way. It says, listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And then it says this, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. So remember, if our reactions are going to be rooted somewhere, what the Shema teaches us is where our hearts and minds and our souls, our strength, like the whole of what makes a human a human, what it should be rooted in is love for God. Right now there's a little detail. I actually think that sometimes, you know, got people who play checkers, people who play chess. Jesus, I think, is often walking around in the New Testament reminding everybody, by the way, I created both checkers and. Okay, so Jesus actually quotes Deuteronomy 6, 4, 5 in Matthew 22, 37:40. And in Matthew 27:37:40, Jesus says, He said to him, this person who's speaking to Jesus, he says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important command. The second is, like it, love your neighbor as yourself. This is this. All the law and the prophets, which is kind of amazing because the law would have been the first five books of the Old Testament. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The prophets would have actually picked up at Joshua and gone all the way through Malachi. So notice what Jesus says. Jesus is like. By the way, the entire Hebrew Bible depends on these two commands, Right?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

It can be summed up with this.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

With this, with this statement. But Jesus is fascinating. What is Jesus doing in Hebrews? And get a little technical. But I'm going to summarize it kind of quickly here in Hebrew, the word Lord in Deuteronomy, chapter six. Because that's where Jesus is quoting. The word Lord is the Hebrew word Yahweh. Okay, okay. The word God right next to it. So the Lord our God, the Lord is one. The word God is Elohim. Two distinct words to describe God. It's talking about the uncreated creator. Fascinating detail in the New Testament.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

The uncreated creator.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah. So what that means is that God, the one that we serve, has no beginning and he has no end.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

He was there forever. He is the uncreated one.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

No one created him.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah, but he's the one who creates all things. Okay, okay. But note, this is, like, fun. Welcome to seminary. He says, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. So the Lord is Yahweh. The intimate name of God. Elohim is the name for God the Father. But then in the New Testament, when that Lord Yahweh is translated, it's translated as Kurios. Now, what's fascinating is every time Jesus is referred to in the New Testament, guess what his name is? Kurios. Lord. Well, every time God is referred to in the New Testament, it's Theos, which is God the Father. Well, what's the Hebrew equivalent to that? Elohim. So just tell you, Jesus is amazing. When Jesus gets to Matthew 22:37, 40, he says, Love the Lord, he's actually saying himself, love Jesus, your God the Father. Well, who's Jesus and who are God? They're one. They're the same. He says all of the law and the prophets hang on this thing that you are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. So our reaction types, regardless of how we react, have to have a rootedness in a love and an affection for God the Father. You know, it has to be embodied by the life of Jesus, God the Son. And then it is kind of fascinating that you can't live theoretically here. Like, it's not okay to just be like, oh, I'm gonna love you theoretically. Like, if I looked at my wife, and I'm like, brit, I love you theoretically, but I'm not going to act in any ways that show my love.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

It has to be lived out practically.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

It has to be embodied. So what does Jesus say? Oh, by the way, the way that you put this on display for the world is by loving your neighbor as yourself. So how do you love your neighbor? You love your neighbor with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Well, what is love for neighbor rooted in? First and foremost, a love for God. So when we think about our reaction types, as we get into kind of the therapy part of it, I think what the scriptures and what Jesus himself really give us is the rooted framework that the way we react has to be rooted in the person whom we love. Right. And so if we love Jesus, then we're gonna react in the way that Jesus desires us to react. But if our love is fractured or if we start to discredit or start to look away from the source of love, Jesus himself, then we'll start to notice that our reaction types will start to go sideways.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. And I think it's also that we need to continuously fill our heart, mind, and soul with God's love, with the truth of God. Because if we don't exhaustion hard things we're going through that stir up strong emotion, missing too much time in the word of God and a lack of worship and a lack of gathering with other believers, all of those things are like opening up little holes in the love tank that we're supposed to keep filled up full of the love of the Father. And it'll just start draining all of that out. And then when we get super empty, we either try to react fully in a good way out of emptiness, which we know isn't going to work, or we start to fill it up with other things. Like maybe it's video games, maybe it's watching certain TV shows, whatever it is. But if we're filling our heart and that's what's stored up in us, then evidence of that is going to start coming out of our mouth. Yeah.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And I mean, I think this is proven in so many practical ways. If what you consume, it's not a what if. It's what you consume is going to be directly correlated to how you act. So if you are consuming content on social media that is consistently suggesting that the world is critical, like, it's just a critical perspective on everything, what you'll start to notice is you will react as a critical person. Right. It's kind of funny. One of the things I try to do with my Instagram, I try to curate the algorithm on my Instagram so that you get two things. I only want my home feed to have two things. You guys know what those two things are?

[Jim Kress]

Humility. You wrote a book on it.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Least got one. Basketball.

[Jim Kress]

I was trying to be more spiritual.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I know, right? No, it's just I'm a very real person, Jim. Two things, right?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Basketball and theology.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

No UFOs, no basketball. And German shepherd. Puppies.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I was gonna say puppies.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

It's amazing. I can have the worst day possible, but if I see a little puppy doing something cute, it changes my life. It makes me want to be happy and to be joyful. But I'll tell you what, if what I'm consuming is constant criticism, like, even with the theology stuff, like, if what I'm consuming is constantly people who are critiquing other people who are suggesting that everybody and their moms is a heretic, like all this kind of stuff, it starts to create a lens of how I react to other things, where my default begins to be. Maybe I should be critical of that. Maybe I should try to find what's wrong with that phrase or with that sentence, you know? And in so Doing it actually is evidence that what I'm being filled with are actually not the words of God and the, like, the heart of what God has for me.

[Jim Kress]

So you just said what consumes what you're consuming consumes you.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yes.

[Jim Kress]

I mean, it's just amazing. Yeah, I get that.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And I think we also have to remember we're also filling ourselves with narratives. And so if our narrative is in alignment with the word of God, then we're going to be filled with more and more truth, which we know that the truth is what's gonna set us free from negative narratives, you know, and set us free from sin and, you know, all of that. But sometimes what will happen with me, and I'm just gonna have confession time. I'm glad that you're full of puppies and basketball.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

German shepherd puppies.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Oh, German shepherd puppies. Thank you. But what can happen for me is something hurtful will happen. I'll develop a narrative around that. Because trauma is not just what happens to us. It's a big part of the trauma and the impact that has. It's the story we tell ourselves because of what happened to us. And so I'll start filling my mind with these narratives about how someone really doesn't have my best interest in mind. Someone can't be trusted. I'm feeling threatened. So, of course, if I'm filling myself up with those negative narratives, then what's going to spill out oftentimes is evidence that that's what I've been thinking about that person anyway. So it's going to be accusations. It's going to be blame. It could be shaming myself. And that leads us right into some of what we want to be cautious of as we think about these four reaction types. Now, four reaction types, I'm going to name them, but I want to tell you something important. So here we go. The exploder that blames others, the exploder that shames herself or himself, the stuffer that builds barriers, and the stuffer that collects retaliation rocks. Okay, so when I was writing my book Unglued, which is where all of this is written out, I was actually sitting at a bookstore, and I would go to this bookstore every day, and they had a little cafe in the bookstore, and I would write, and it just became, like, my spot. So there was a lady one day that came to my table, and she said, lisa. No, she didn't say Lisa. She said, hi, my name is blah, blah, blah. I introduced myself as Lisa. And then she said, I see you here every day. What are you working on. And I said, I'm writing a book on reactions. And I said, there's four different reaction types. And I know if we have better reactions, quite possibly we'll have better relationships. And so I'm really working on my reactions, and I'm writing about that. And I said, and right now, I'm writing up four reaction types so I can help people identify which one of the four are you. And then I told her I read the four reaction type. The exploder that blames others, the exploder that shames herself, the stuffer that builds barriers, the stuffer that collects retaliation rocks. And then I asked her, which one do you think you are? And she paused, and she said, you know what's interesting is I shift my reaction type based on who I'm having a reaction with. And it completely changed the course of how I wrote this book, because she's right. I will have one reaction with my pastor, and I'll have a different reaction with one of my kids. I will have one reaction with Jim, but I'll have a different reaction reaction with a friend. And so I think it's really interesting, as we think through these four reaction types, to identify one relationship and think through what reactor type am I in this relationship? Okay, so you guys go ahead and pick your one relationship. Who are you gonna say?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Oh, gosh, this is like, you really put me on the spot right now.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Let's say Brittany.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Oh, gosh. Okay.

[Jim Kress]

Although we all just even it out.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And we'll do Jessica, and you'll say jessica.

[Jim Kress]

No. Why not?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, perfect. And I'll do Chaz.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Oh, perfect.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, here we go.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Okay.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

All right, so to determine our reaction type in that particular relationship, here's what I want you to do. I want you to.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

This is a group exercise. We just walked into a group exercise.

[Lysa TerKeurst]

Group exercise.

[Jim Kress]

One on one.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to think of a circle, and I want you to split that circle in half. On the top part of the circle, I want you to think internal processor.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Okay.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

On the bottom part, I want you to say external processor. So with Brittany, when something comes up, Joel, do you typically take whatever's going on, and immediately you want to externally, like, process everything that's going on?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Not at all.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. So then you would like to enter. You're going to take it in and process it internally.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Like, I will think about it by myself inside my own. Perfect.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

What about you with Jessica? Are you immediately wanting to, like, process it by talking it out, or do you Immediately want to just internalize it and kind of get your bearings inside of you.

[Jim Kress]

First married, middle married. I've been married 40 years. Or now?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Now.

[Jim Kress]

Well, now I'm going to. Because it's kind of my style of this is to external process. And then I begin to ground myself and turn internal. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That happens a lot.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

So let's do.

[Jim Kress]

Maybe previous unhealthy gym would be external processing. Completely easy. And only until I got. Only until I got into therapy did someone help me go internal.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay.

[Jim Kress]

Everything seemed like it was external.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. And I can be both, actually. But for the purpose of this, I'll say I'm typically in my relationship with Chaz. I'm the one that wants to talk it out. He's the one that wants to kind of withdraw and think it through.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Okay. Britt wants to talk it out. I'm the one who wants to withdraw. Exactly.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Perfect situation.

[Jim Kress]

I'm always the one who wants to talk it out anywhere.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. All right, so here we go. So we've got our processing. Now I want you to think about expressing. So are you more of an external expressor? Like, okay, you've processed it. Now you're going to go have a conversation. Are you actually going to have the conversation and actually talk about it, or are you going to internally just suppress it? Because I just suppress. Want to deal with.

[Jim Kress]

You need therapy.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I'm an internal pressure. Why do you think I'm here, Jim? Me too.

[Jim Kress]

Hey, that's why it works.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, so pick like unhealthy Jim. Okay, well, even.

[Jim Kress]

Even healthy. I'm going to external. And then if something's there, if an elephant's in the room, I like to go, you know, let's invite. Let's talk about it. I want to. I just to let it sit there. It drives me nuts.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I'm conflict avoided. That's my issue.

[Jim Kress]

Okay.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Oh, we're doing.

[Jim Kress]

We'd like six more episodes based on.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

What you've just said.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. All right, so you're external. External. You're internal. Internal. Okay. And I'm external processor. But then I can be an internal suppressor.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Okay.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

So I'm external. Internal with that. Okay. With the way I process, but then the way sometimes I suppress. Now sometimes, like I said with other people, I will immediately just want to express everything. But I think with Chaz, sometimes I'm more tempted to suppress. Like externally I want to process it all, but then I want to then kind of suppress before I say anything else.

[Jim Kress]

How's the difference? Just Real quick. I know we got a lot of material to get through of internal, not suppression, but processing. Because I will do a lot. I'll be kind of aba form external. Then I'll go internal and think, contemplate what's going. Then external come back. Let's talk through this. And then back to. So I don't. I don't know that I. Maybe I do. I'm unaware of it, but I don't internally suppress that much. Not for long, because it just comes up.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah, and that's true of me. Like, I'll suppress for a while, but then it'll eventually come up. But we're going to talk about that in a second. Okay. So based on the cross section, that's how we determine our reactor type. So, Joel, your internal processor, internal suppressor. So you are the stuffer that builds barriers.

[Jim Kress]

Stovetop stuffing right here.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I am an external processor, an internal suppressor. So I'm a stuffer that creates. That collects retaliation rocks.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I can see that, Joel.

[Jim Kress]

Can we leave me out of this, of where this is going next?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

It is.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

It is the curse of the comeback. Because you've got such great, like, wittiness to you.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, thank you, Joel.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

But I build barriers.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

He's trying to turn something so positive into this, you know, into what's obviously a negative thing that I'm working on. But I work in isolation, so I do like to collect proof, and I'm not proud of that, but I do want to make sure, as I'm thinking through everything, I want to have all my ducks in a row before we eventually have a conversation, because I want to just have, like, all my proof that I've thought through this. Not necessarily proof against you, but I'm going to keep it inside. So that when we do have the conversation, I feel like I'm well prepared. That's the nice way of saying it. But actually, what will sometimes happen with the stuffer that collects retaliation rocks is I'll stuff and stuff and stuff and stuff, and eventually the stuffing is going to come out. And when it does, that proof sometimes comes out as retaliation yours. You're going to start you stuff and stuff and stuff, but then what you're in essence doing is building a barrier to sort of prevent that conversation from ever happening. You just want some distance. Yeah, okay.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And that's totally true.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay.

[Jim Kress]

So thanks for confessing, Jim.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

You are external expressor.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

External Jim is Jesus. Because everything he keeps saying puts him right in the middle.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Right in the middle.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Good night.

[Jim Kress]

I know we'll be Back after these important messages.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, but we're going to unhealthy.

[Jim Kress]

I have my time here. Come on. What is it? I see where you're going.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

So, Jim, I've heard you kind of toggling between the internal processor, external processor.

[Jim Kress]

This when you identify that what you are. I'm being very honest. I'll go with this one if you want to put me there. But that is me to a T. Okay. Oh yeah.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay.

[Jim Kress]

Big time.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That kind of works with that. Right? Because it's the retaliation. But then you're collecting to blame others.

[Jim Kress]

Oh yeah.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And use the retaliate like use the rocks that you've used as.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yes. Yeah. So if you're an external express or external processor, if you fall into that quadrant, you're the exploder that blames others. Or if you are an external expressor, internal processor, which sometimes I can also be that. And that's the exploder that then shames themselves. Like, I'll have a strong reaction and then I feel so terrible about having that kind of reaction. I kind of turn it on myself and shame myself. I'll lay in bed at 2 o'clock in the morning and be like, why did I say all of that? That was ridiculous, right?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah.

[Jim Kress]

So good.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Our goal here is to get to a place in our relationships where we can be honest without exploding and we can also be peacemaking without stuffing. So as a stuffer, there is a good quality that can come out with stuffers and that is that you feel like by not talking about it, that is your way of kind of wanting to keep. Keep the peace. Right. And then Jim, if you're external in, in an unhealthy gym, if you're externally, it's like, well, I've. I've got to get the truth out. Like I, I'm just, I'm gonna say it like it is because honesty is really important to you. But sometimes our honesty needs to be balanced with peacemaking and sometimes our peacemaking needs to be balanced with honesty. And when we have that perfect combination, like a perfect reaction is one where. And really it would be called a response is where we can be honest and peacemaking at the same time. We can be honest without shaming or blaming. We can be honest without attacking, and we can be a peacemaker without stuffing it down and pretending it doesn't exist. Collecting retaliation rocks or building barriers, that's what we're getting to. Okay, so as we talk about.

[Jim Kress]

Did we just get an F? Did we just fail the. The exercise teacher? No, you have that look, you got an A. I know you tried to, but she wouldn't take it.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, but here's the thing. No matter what reaction type you are, there's always things that we can work on so that we can turn reactions into better responses. And better reactions or better responses will lead to a better relationship. So let's look at.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I think what happens with me, though, is I have. The more I suppress, the more I hold on to those things, the more internal incongruity happens. And I have bitterness. Like, there's a bitterness that actually kind of clouds everything else. And so I've created that barrier. But the longer that that barrier and separation is, the deeper I go into my bitterness and into my anger.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. And that is so important to realize because the first step in any situation to get better is self realization. Right. And I think on the exploder side, it can be accusation, like focusing on the other person and accusing them. If you wouldn't do this, then I wouldn't do this. That's one type of accusation. How does it usually come out with you, Jim, in. In like an accusatory form if. If you're in unhealthy gym?

[Jim Kress]

Well, if I'm sensing. Notice, sensing there's an injustice, a big activation point of trigger for me is if somebody's not owning their stuff. Because in my mind, and I think quite experientially, I'm often said, okay, I see that I want to own. I want to own. I actually enjoy owning things. Sometimes I don't, but often I do. And if I sense they're not owning their stuff or they're owning it with a yes, but sure, I do that, but I know that. But negates it. That's where that. I can feel the beach ball that's held under underwater starting to come up like a grenade. So I'm trying to hold the grenade go, no, don't do that. But I'll feel it wrapped around relational injustice. Someone not owning their stuff.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

That's where I can see it. Or not pulling their weight or not doing equal amounts of whatever. You know, it's like I'm giving and you're taking, you know, in that. Or it could be like, I'm. I keep owning things. I keep saying I'm sorry, and you just keep making me the bad guy. Like, I can't always be the bad guy, you know? And so I think these dynamics exist in a lot of different relationships. So think of a different relationship, Joel. Like, okay, here we go. Think of. Think of with me. Okay? Because I'm not Britney, so. And we have a work relationship. So are you still the same kind of reaction with me?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

It depends. On what? Like, is it like a negative situation? Like, is it a hard conversation? Is it just, you know.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Well, yeah, let's say that it's something. It's not like the hardest thing ever, but it is something that is bothering you.

[Jim Kress]

Put your hand on the Bible.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Oh my gosh.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, here are your four reaction types. Exploder that blames others. Exploder that shames himself. Stuffer that builds barriers. A stuffer that collects retaliation rocks.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I think I'm still. I think I'm still a stuffer, but I think I would go in this situation and probably breaks your paradigm, but I feel like I'd be a stuffer that shames myself.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, okay.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

You know, because I feel like clearly I did something wrong. Like, you know, there's just something like I will become self deprecating in that situation.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. All right. So if that's kind. And then you will eventually. I mean, eventually we'll talk it out.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Always.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

So we don't typically have barriers. So really what you will become is not necessarily an exploder that shames himself, but an expressor that shames himself. Yeah. Because you don't have to be exploding it just be like, I'm going to express it, but I'm going to shame myself in the process. Okay, so what do you do about that? Like, because if you've identified that you're that reaction type sometimes in our relationship.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Then how can you make healthy progress in this?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I mean, just to cut off the stuffing off of the, the very beginning. Because if I stuff, that's what gets there. So for, you know, like, we have a lot of, honestly, I think the way that it works for us, like, welcome to our lives. It's theology study days. You know, it is, it's almost every, I don't know. Of a theology study day. And even with therapy and theology where we don't start our time with life checkup. How's everybody doing? You know, it's usually in those environments that if there's something that's the place that we get to like just process it, you know?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

That's right. And I'm so glad that you're saying this because you're getting an A. Yeah. You're now getting an A. No need to shame or blame.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

You're just right.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

You're getting an A now. But Jim, this is something so important that you've talked in, is doing regular check ins and I think when we do regular check ins with whatever relationship that we're in, where we're feeling some kind of way, you know, and there's this reaction that is is building or there's just this undercurrent or a narrative that's building. Doing regular check ins helps us talk about this. When the emotional charge is not so high, when the emotional charge is high, that's when the exploding and the stuffing reaches that intensity. What we want to do is have regular check ins that prevent the emotional intensity so that we can become better at having conversations rather than arguments. Because if we don't do these regular check ins, it's like the kettle that's boiling, you know, it's like regular check ins kind of let the steam out. The steam out.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That's a great analogy.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

But if you keep that steam locked inside, eventually it's going to do something right. It's going to have like a pretty bad reaction. So, Jim, I love how in therapy and one thing that I think you helped me do even before I met Chaz and even before I started dating, you helped me really understand how important check ins are and how to do a check in. So do you want to explain that? Hi friends.

[Lysa TerKeurst]

I hope you're enjoying this episode of Therapy and Theology. Before we hear what's next, I want to pause and thank our partner for season eight, Compassion International. For years, Proverbs 31 Ministries has stood alongside Compassion International because we love their mission. Bring real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing in Jesus name. I've seen Compassion's impact myself through the letters and updates I've received from the child I sponsor. Several of my teammates here at Proverbs 31 sponsor children as well, and we would all tell you the same thing. The work Compassion is doing is truly amazing. When you sponsor a child, you ensure access to quality education, medical checkups, healthy food, clean water, and most importantly, the love of Jesus, all delivered through their church in their community. Compassion isn't just changing the lives of children. It's changing entire families and whole communities in need. And it's also changed me. So today I hope you'll join me in sponsoring a child through Compassion. All you have to do is pull out your phone and text Proverbs 3:1 with no spaces to 83393. That's Proverbs 3:1 with no Spaces to 83393. You'll get a text back with a picture of a child who is waiting for a sponsor and a link to sponsor that child. You can also go to compassion.comproverbs 31 to sponsor a child. And when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide titled the Beginning of All Wisdom as our way of saying thank you for investing in the life of a child. Thank you for joining me in sponsoring a child through Compassion today. Now back to the show.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah, it's being proactive. And what it's doing is kindly, gently. I've thought all through this entire episode of Ephesians 4:15, just taking that out real quick, of speaking the truth in love, even agape love, of seeking someone's highest good. So as a check in is in Nehemiah, you know, I've taken us through that many times. There was a place that they blew a trumpet when people got vulnerable. And I encourage people. I literally play my trumpet in my office these days and say, blow your own trumpet. And that's saying, hey, you deserve to know. Because behind the veil, behind the curtain, you can't know what's going on. So if we schedule a check in or just do Jessica and said we'll do a regular check in, I'll say, what am I missing? Is there anything that I'm done, out of alignment? Because if there's something I have a problem with Jessica, with my style, I'm going to go to her, really, anybody, and say, hey, are you open to a thought? I'm struggling with this. She can at times, which is part of her journey, express things. Less, less. So I think the check in is going in to say, I want to check in. I want to know where we are. We do it at the car shop with the mechanic. We do it at the dentist. We go and get a yearly, whatever, male, female, whatever. So we're wired to do these check ins with things. We check our banking account and then our emotional relational bank account. We're not checking in. So I just want to know, because what happens in vagueness stays in vagueness to say, hey, what am I missing here? It's up to the other person. If I came to Joel and said that it's up to him, because then we're fine, are we? So just at least give the offer the open door to say, is there anything I'm missing? And if I know there's something, be continually confessing your sins one another, I can come in and say, look, I don't have to ask you. I can tell you for every rip, there's a repair. I kind of joked and I could just see that hurt. You did it. Or this is something I said I would do and do it. I can check in. I didn't follow through. The check in really helps clear up the vagueness.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And is there a certain way to do a check in? Like, is there. Are there components of it that we need to make sure to include?

[Jim Kress]

Can I do mine real quick?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yes.

[Jim Kress]

I can't go too quickly, but it'll just fan o Ross build on something that a friend of mine who haven't started but I took it further. I have couples sit down and do. It'll It's a word F A N O R O, S S And that is I share a feeling. Let's say you and I were talking. I would share a feeling. This is what I'm feeling. Which is your hand. Mad, sad, glad, bad or afraid. Bad as guilt or shame. And here's maybe why I'm feeling it. You share a feeling. It's like I call it healthy pickleball in a relationship. Feeling F A.3 affirmations and you give me. That was in our Healthy Conversations contract. Gottman's research says it takes five to 12 affirmations to cover one critique. So I say three things. Not gratitude. These are three things what I like about you. Could be your hair, your eyes, your tenderness, your walk with Jesus, whatever feelings. Three affirmations in need. What do you need? I know that on this side, way out affairs are always pornography is always about perceived unmet needs. So to say, what do you need? What do you need for me? Or what do you need for someone else? I just need to take a bubble bath or I need to watch Netflix tonight Or I need you to listen to me. So saying what do you need? Then that's fan. And then to go into the Oros part. The first one of the O is ownership. We're right there. I mean, in biblical confession, I need to own this with no buts, but wit, no explanation. The word of God says basically our sins should shut our mouth and say, you know, I know this, I want to own this. And then I turn, I flip it and say to your spouse, is there anything you need me to own that I have not yet owned? Most people will know. Yeah, it kind of hurt me the other day when said that. Then fan O, then to the R. The R is for every rip. You know this, there needs to be a repair. So if I've owned something, sweetheart, how can I repair this with you? I may think I know the way, right? So rr, rip and repair. There's a bunch of r's here. There's two more. Any regrets I have historically or current, and this is a big one. I'm going to talk about this in a workshop. We have a retreat on forgiveness we're doing. Is there any resentments? The resentments is you drinking poison, expecting someone else to be sick. My resentments are nothing to do with you, even if I think they do. And then second O is omission, which is this is big in life. What are you not telling me that honey, you know I'd want to know. Maybe I've been more depressed than, you know, maybe someone's looked at porn or something. What am I hiding from you? What am I omitting? You always want to include the omissions. The other S is just simply. There's two more. Where am I spiritually? And definitely don't judge. Well, you ought to read your Bible more. Just say this is where I am with God with the Bible or where am I spiritually? And then I do self care and self care is just what am I doing that's good in self care and what am I not doing the other s it's too long to get into is sobriety. Be sober, be vigilant. The Bible says so. Am I sexually sober, Alcohol, drug sober? Am I sleep sober, food sober? It's just a way to check in. If you go through that fan o Ross thing and these are archived, they can go back and write that down. It's a pretty thorough check in to say now I kind of know where we are. Also I have more ways to know how I can pray for you. I just don't want to miss something and find out, you know, I've got stage four cancer or something emotionally because you don't ask me, I'm not telling you.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And I think there probably needs to be some ground rules too. No doubt because I'm thinking like some of these things, it requires great vulnerability.

[Jim Kress]

That's the Healthy Conversations contract and my intensives. Yes, the contract first, then fan Ross and say, no, you don't get to do that.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah.

[Jim Kress]

Does that make sense?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Absolutely. And I think the more we can create safe space inside of our relationship, the more we'll feel able to be honest with the check in. And then I think it also works that the more honest we are in these check ins, the more safety there will be in our relationship. And always realizing too, like as we're listening, we're not trying to collect proof against the other person, much as I might want to. Yeah. But in something that's been A really good stopgate in my mind is, am I trying to prove that I'm right or am I trying to improve this relationship? Because I can't do both at the same time. So the goal here is to have healthy conversations that are honest and also peacemaking at the same time, where we come together, we both feel safe, and we're able to have conversations rather than terrible reactions that lead to arguments, that lead to resentment, that lead to barriers, that lead to retaliation, rocks that leads to blaming, that leads to shaming, and all of those unhealthy cycles that we can get into. Thank you, Joel, for being so honest today. Thank you, Jim, for being honest today. And we hope that you've enjoyed this episode of Therapy and Theology.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

You know what I think actually happened, Lisa? I think that usually we come in here and it's like, Joel does the theology, Jim does the therapy, and you're, you know, you always say you brought the problems. You did a whole flip on this. That's actually what happened.

[Jim Kress]

She's a ninja.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

She just did the theology and the therapy and we brought that out.

[Jim Kress]

I knew that from the ministry.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Oh my goodness.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Today has been. And we're better for it today on Therapy and Theology. Thanks so much, Lisa.

[Shay Hill]

Jim and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation.

[Jim Kress]

Friend.

[Shay Hill]

After listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I want to remind you about Lysa Turker's free resource titled Trust is a track 5 Scriptural Truths to remember God's faithfulness. Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 ministries where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.