← Therapy and Theology
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- [00:03]
Shea Hill
This season of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Compassion International. Compassion brings real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing, all in Jesus name and through the generosity of sponsors. Visit compassion.comproverbs 31 or click the link in our show notes to choose a child to sponsor today. As an added bonus, when you become a sponsor sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide called the Beginning of All Wisdom. Now onto today's episode of Therapy and Theology.
- [00:47]
Lisa Terkeurst
Hi friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Therapy and Theology podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 ministries where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shea Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lisa Terkeurst, counselor Jim Kress, and Dr. Joel Mutamale. Each episode of this season is going to help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today they're going to be tackling the topic of addiction, a topic that definitely cannot be covered entirely in just one episode. I know there may be many of you who have been personally affected by addiction in some way, so please know we're here for you and we feel the weight of being sensitive to a topic like this. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners, by clicking the link in our show notes. You can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lisa, Jim and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lisa titled Trust Is A track record 5 Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness. This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God. Guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting him and more because we help you work through what you walk through here on Therapy and Theology. I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lisa, Jim and Joel.
- [02:19]
Jim Kress
Today we want to talk about addictions and I've got of course my good friend Jim Kress here, who is licensed professional counselor and Dr. Joel Mutamale. And we want to approach this both from a therapeutic standpoint, also a theological standpoint, and lastly an experiential standpoint. Because addictions are Something that are quite prevalent. And even if you've never had an addiction, chances are there's only a 1 degree separation between you, someone you love, someone you do life with, that is struggling with an addiction. So we think this is a very important topic. I first want to open up with a story that I think really illustrates why it's so important to go there to talk about this and to discover what we can do in situations where we are struggling with an addiction or living with someone who is struggling with an addiction. Several years ago, I was over in Florence, Italy, and I went to the Academia Museum. The purpose of me going there was because I was very excited to see Michelangelo's David, the big statue of David, and what a masterpiece it was. I remember though, when I walked into the long hallway that leads to the rotunda where the David sits, it wasn't the David that captured my attention, even though it was a masterpiece and it was beautiful and I was eager to walk closer to it.
- [03:44]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
But.
- [03:44]
Jim Kress
But what captured my attention were the statues that were lining the hallway leading up to the David. These were statues that still look like big pieces of rock, of marble. And there was maybe like a head sticking out with an elbow and a leg of one, and then the next one, there was no head. It was still the big block, but there was like a shoulder and an arm and another, you know, maybe foot or something. And each of these statues were unfinished, and it looked like there was a beautiful sculpture that was trying to emerge from the rock. But this unfinished collection was called the Prisoners. And what made me think about this, and I still think about it to this day, is what it looks like when someone is forever locked in their hard places. You know, it was kind of eye opening to stand there and look at what the master artist had finished chiseling. And it got to this beautiful, this masterpiece called the David. And how stark it was to compare that to these unfinished statues that were called the prisoners. And so I started praying this God, chisel me. I don't want to be a prisoner forever locked in my hard places. Chisel me. Work on me, Lord. And you know, in order to be chiseled, that means you have to be like, worked on, chipped at. And it doesn't always feel pleasant, it doesn't always seem good at the time, but all of God's work to get us to the place where God has this good in mind for us, it is good work, even if it doesn't feel good in the moment. So that's why I wanted to tell this Story. Just to give us a picture of some. Someone who's struggling with addiction. And how they really are stuck in this really hard place. And so, Joel, I wanna turn to you first. And I wanna just know, from a theological standpoint. Does the Bible even talk about addictions? Where do we go in the Bible to read about addictions? So what do you have for us today?
- [05:56]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Yeah, I think the first place I'd like to start Is actually picking up on that chiseling kind of story. And to point out how that's such a great illustration of the work of sanctification in our lives. And so, you know, imagine you've got this big thing of block of marble. And it's a little bit different from how we do art today. Where depending on your medium, you've got an image in your mind. And then you draw that image out, you know. But when a person is working with marble, they have to chisel out what they're seeing. And they have to work their way all the way down. But there becomes this kind of, like, finite moment. Where they're in danger of chiseling too much, you know, and if they chisel too much, they lose the essence of what that picture is supposed to be. And what I just love about this picture and the whole David thing. Is, like, the Holy Spirit is the one who's doing chiseling. Like, the Holy Spirit is the one who is really working to take off the old self. The things that bring corruption to our lives. The things that cause chaos and dysfunction in our lives. And the Holy Spirit is the perfect artist. Because he's never going to take away too much. And at the very end of the product, you get like the beautiful human that you were always intended to be. How does this relate to addiction? Addiction is actually working contrary to the work of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit wants us to be the beautiful, full expression. Of the image of God that we're designed to be. Addictions are actually working to emaciate us, to ruin us from the inside out. And one of the ways that addiction does this is through self deception, you know? And so addiction and self deception go hand in hand. But the other part about why addiction is so difficult. Is because I've come to the term just the realization that addiction is the dark side of worship. Addiction is the dark side of worship. What do I mean by that? You and I were created to be worshipful beings. We're always intended to pour out our worship and adoration unto God. And we were intended to experience appropriate levels of honor. And dignity. And, you know, and to be seen in the image and likeness of God. Like, those are good and beautiful things. Addictions take us to extremes. And when we go into this place of extremes, it actually causes us to lose our rationality and to lose the very unique thing that makes us who we are. As we give ourselves over to something else. So if you were to be like Joel, what is, like, the basic premise, basic definition of what addiction is? I know, Jim, you've got a therapeutic one. But from a theological standpoint, I would just simply say addiction is the process by which we are actively giving ourselves over to something that is destructive and detrimental to our humanity. That we're giving ourselves something. Giving ourselves over to something that is destructive or detrimental to our humanity. I've got a favorite scholar. His name is GK Beale. And Beale has this great book about worship. And one of his lines, and there's a quote, he says, what we revere, we reflect. Either to our ruin or restoration. Whatever is the object of our reverence, we will end up reflecting that thing to our ruin or to our restoration. So the Old Testament plight of the people of God is, hey, don't go after. Don't give yourself over to the idols of the world. Don't give yourself over to. To sexual licentiousness. Don't give yourself over to these practices in the temple. Because you're actually destroying yourself. You will look like the thing that you're giving yourself over to. But give yourself over to the Lord. Give yourself over to the Holy Spirit. Give yourself wholly devoted to those things. And in that, you're going to find a full expression of who you were always intended to be. There are a couple of verses I'd love to just kind of look at. One is in Proverbs, and this is like one of those sober verses. It's Proverbs 23, starting in verse 29, where the author says, who has woe? Right? So, like, we could all answer this together. Anybody here have woe? Hand raised? Okay. Who has sorrow? Anybody?
- [10:13]
Jim Kress
Cool?
- [10:13]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Okay. Who has conflicts? Okay. Might just keep our hands up. Who has complaints? Who fulfills this? This was a big one. Who feels that they have a wound for no reason? Good night. Right. Who has red eyes? That is a description of tears of sorrow, you know? And then now it goes over to this. Like those who linger over wine. So it's almost this contrast that's happening, is here's a list of things that are natural and normal to human existence. Now here's the danger, because if you have experienced these things, you have a place that you can turn to or a place that you can turn away from, right? So we either turn to the Lord, we turn to the people of God, we turn to holy actions to deal with the sorrow of life, or we can turn over to things that are actually going to be detrimental to us. And so this proverb talks about those that turn over to the detrimental thing. Well, what is this? Those who linger over wine, Those who go. Who go looking for mixed wine. Jesus says, don't gaze at wine because it's red, because it gleams in the cup and goes down smoothly. Look at this. In the end, it bites like a snake and stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things. You will say absurd things. You'll be like someone sleeping out at sea or lying down on the top of ship's mast. That basically means that they're sunstruck. They struck me, but I feel no pain. They beat me, but I didn't know it. When will I wake up? And then it's like, I'll look for another drink. Look at the insanity of that, right? It's like, wait a minute. You have an option of where you turn to, but when you turn to addictive tendencies, addictions in your life, you're going to go through this whole thing and it's going to spin you out of control. But the real grave danger is at the very end of it, when you go back to sobriety. You wake up and you go, I could go for another cup of wine. Like, how does that make sense? This is why I think Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:12, he says, Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. So it's like the famous statement, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do it.
- [12:26]
Jim Kress
Wow.
- [12:26]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
You know, and then just the last one that I think is really important is Ephesians 5, 15, 18. Paul says this. He says, pay careful attention then to how you walk. Not as unwise people, but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. So instantly he starts.
- [12:50]
Jim Kress
And that was ephesians what?
- [12:52]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Ephesians 5, 15, 18. Ephesians 5, 15,18. So pay careful attention. Which, by the way, how in the world can you pay careful attention if you're intoxicated?
- [13:04]
Guest Speaker
Well put.
- [13:06]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
How can you pay careful attention if you're addicted to drugs?
- [13:09]
Jim Kress
How can you pay careful attention if all you can think about is the next time you're gonna partake in whatever the addiction is.
- [13:15]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Whatever the addiction is. Like we're using narcotics or wine or whatever. But I think this expands into obsession in relationships. Right? You and I were never intended to be obsessed with a relationship. So much so that it actually deters from our everyday living, from our love of God, from love of God's people. And so it's like, what are the crutches in your life that have actually become addictions? Pay careful attention then to how you walk. Not as unwise people, but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. So I love this about the scripture. The scriptures don't hide the reality of life. It's like, hey, by the way, the days are evil. So don't be foolish. Understand what the Lord's will is. And then here's the contrast I think is fantastic. Don't get drunk with wine, which leads to reckless living, but be filled with the spirit. So look at the contrast. The contrast is you and I can either be drunk with wine or insert any of your addictions right there. Drunk with insert addiction. What is the outcome of that type of life? Recklessness? You know, I don't know. The last person that drove drunk got a DUI and said, you know, everything's working out good for me right now.
- [14:22]
Jim Kress
Right.
- [14:22]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
You know, so. But then the contrast is you don't have to do that. Why? You could be filled by something. The issue isn't if you're going to be filled or not. The question is, what are you going to be filled with?
- [14:35]
Guest Speaker
That's good.
- [14:35]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
So you're going to have a feeling. What are you going to be filled with? Be filled with the spirit of God. And I just have this, like, this sentence. It's like all of these other addictions are cheap highs. There's nothing sustaining about it. There's nothing that is going to give longevity and fruitfulness in your life. They're just cheap highs. But for the people of God and for those that are not even believers, you might be listening to this podcast and watching the YouTube video, and you might not even know who Jesus is. But you jumped onto this video because you're like, wait a minute, I'm going to learn about addictions. I want to learn about pornography. Like, I'm interested in this topic. And you're looking for solutions. You're looking for something that's going to ease the ache of your human heart. And I just want to suggest to you that there is something that is lasting, there's something that is fulfilling. There's something that will lead you to eternal life that is going to be so good for your life. And it doesn't require you to compromise your mind. It doesn't require you to get on a cheap high. It's actually simply bending your knee and accepting Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit. And when we receive the Holy Spirit, we get a high that is untouchable. We get a high that is, that is undescribable. It's not cheap. It's actually holy. And it's good and it's lasting and it leads us to wisdom and righteousness and it helps us in all areas of our life. And so it's like, well, what is addiction? Addiction is so self deceptive. But what is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit actually gives us clarity.
- [16:05]
Jim Kress
Hi friends.
- [16:06]
Shea Hill
I hope you're enjoying this episode of Therapy and Theology. Before we hear what's next, I want to pause and thank our partner for season eight, Compassion International. For years, Proverbs 31 Ministries has stood alongside Compassion International because we love their mission. Bring real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing in Jesus name. I've seen Compassion's impact myself through the letters and updates I've received from the child I spent sponsor Several of my teammates here at Proverbs 31 sponsor children as well. And we would all tell you the same thing. The work Compassion is doing is truly amazing. When you sponsor a child, you ensure access to quality education, medical checkups, healthy food, clean water, and most importantly, the love of Jesus, all delivered through their church in their community. Compassion isn't just changing the lives of children, it's changing entire families and whole communities in need. And it's also changed me. So today I hope you'll join me in sponsoring a child through Compassion. All you have to do is pull out your phone and text Proverbs 3:1 with no spaces to 83393. That's Proverbs 3:1 with no Spaces to 83393. You'll get a text back with a page of a child who is waiting for a sponsor and a link to sponsor that child. You can also go to compassion.comproverbs 31 to sponsor a child. And when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide titled the Beginning of All Wisdom as our way of saying thank you for investing in the life of a child. Thank you for joining me in sponsoring a child through true Compassion today. Now back to the show.
- [17:58]
Jim Kress
Yeah, and I think the driver behind an addiction usually is this incessant hunger. But what we don't realize, like, for example, if you have an addiction to food, it's not realizing that food can only reach your stomach. It can never reach and satisfy your soul.
- [18:17]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
That's right.
- [18:18]
Jim Kress
And so it's like this insane incessant hunger for something to ease an ache deep within you. But the only answer for the deep ache within us and what we don't realize so much is it's the ache for the Lord. And the Lord has that in us to draw our hearts to him and to make sure that nothing in this world ever satisfies. Because if anything else in this world ever fully satisfied the ache within us, then we would fully envelop that thing, rather than turning our face and our attention and our hearts toward Jesus Christ and the Lord himself. So here's some observations. Just. I'll just say on a personal level, when you're in a relationship with someone with addiction, and I think it's so hard. So the problem is, the minute they hear addiction, they start assigning that word, which in their mind sounds much more severe than what they're doing. They started assigning that word to all the other people who are in worse situations than they are. For example, like, if their issue is drinking, they'll go, well, I'm not an addict because I can stop anytime I want to. And also treatment, I don't need treatment. I don't need recovery. I mean, that's for people who, like, do crack cocaine and stuff, right? And so there you mentioned self deception. And I think denial runs right along that same vein. And the problem is, when you are in relationship with someone, you are seeing things that they legitimately either refuse to see or are not seeing. And it can be a really scary thing. And it can also very much be dysregulating to the person who's seeing it and desperately wants to help them. So there is this self deception. There is this denial that's happening. At the same time, when you try to have a conversation with someone who is addicted, it's crucial that you remember the truth to them is not always in alignment with reality. The truth to them is whatever protects the addiction. And I remember one time, Jim, you were helping me process some things, and you took a pillow from the couch and you held it up in front of your face, and you said, lisa, I just want you to remember, when you're having a conversation, you're not actually having a conversation. If the pillow is here. You're not actually having a conversation with this person. You're having a conversation with the addiction and you're not even reaching the person. And that really just was such a picture to me that I'm not dealing with something that's just a little problem. I'm dealing with something that is full of deception, full of untruths. And it's really hard to navigate and really hard to navigate on your own, especially if. If you are new to realizing or recognizing the world of addiction. So, Jim, what are some of the behavioral signs and symptoms of addiction? And also just for someone listening here, what if they're going, wait a minute. So if I do this and this, could I possibly have an addiction? And I just think the first place is self awareness or awareness about the relationship that you're in.
- [21:38]
Guest Speaker
Some of the more classic signs or signposts of addiction or characteristics is it is obsessive. Somebody thinks about it a lot. Even when they're not, say, drinking, drugging, using porn, which is an addiction. It's obsessive, it's compulsive. Means I just almost cannot stop myself. Or indeed I can't stop myself. I have this compulsion to do this. Right. That's if you look at the alcohol one, someone says, I have a beer, I have a glass of wine, but I don't have a compulsion for it. In the addictions world, we call it jonesing. I'm not just jonesing. I have to have. It's like I can take it or leave it. Many addicts and alcoholics will say, I could stop. You know, famous book that calls about, I'll stop or I'll quit tomorrow. And it's like, yeah, but because they can hold their breath for 30, 60, 90 days and nothing's changed. They go from acting out to acting in. It's obsessive compulsive. It continues despite adverse circumstances. Could be a dui. Could be that you are especially like with alcohol or drugs, you basically it is hurting you at work. And people begin to notice bloodshot eyes, excuses a person who may be calling in sick. Whatever else it may be, like if there's a hangover or something like that.
- [22:55]
Jim Kress
Or certainly deterioration in their close personal relationships.
- [22:59]
Guest Speaker
Totally. You can see even in a close personal relationship, like the person some secrecy they're hiding. You see something. My big one is especially the defensive idea. Like Shakespeare said, methinks thou does protest too much. Like someone says, what are you talking about? You've already alluded to this. Flipping it back on you. Well, you must be crazy. Comparison which you've alluded to already. Is like, well, as soon as I hear the words, well, at least I don't blank. It's like, okay, that's often a sign there. It's secretive. They're hiding things. It's like I said, if someone says, I'm going to drink, then if you're married, come out and say, hey, I'm going to drink. You're going to go to bed. I'm going to stay up and watch Netflix and have a couple of cognacs or something. I'm not endorsing that. I'm just saying. But the secrets here, waiting till someone's not around or my goodness, hiding it in a glove compartment or whatever, you're.
- [23:47]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Kind of telling on yourself, aren't you?
- [23:48]
Guest Speaker
Oh, yeah. But usually what is uncovered later, it was covered up earlier. What someone covers will be discovered way down the road, right? Tries to stop and can't. Because see, with the all addictions, there is a time to go through a detox where you're literally letting the body brain, all of us literally be into to be able to live without it. Like with alcoholism, if it is truly alcoholism, the idea of saying just stop. It can be very deadly because of delirious trimmings, DTs. So there's a lot of information around this. You see these signs. They become physically aggressive because sometimes they might be trying to almost white knuckle it, we call them. They're trying to dial it back and stop. And the angrier they get. They're isolated, they're. They have no accountability. The idea of, you see these mood changes or mood swings, such stuff as, well, you're up late, awful late at night, or you know, with the GPS or whatever, the phone live360 or whatever, I see you going places. I mean, where are you? What's up? And I notice there's an ABC store next door. But these are some of the telltale signs that one can begin to see. Now don't rush to judgment. You might see two or three signs and investigate, be intriguing and say, I see this. What's going on? But that confrontation early on I never recommend because that's just going. Often a person will just go underground and hide it. But the idea of being curious, not furious, and in time you'll be able to see the signs and hopefully speak to them.
- [25:18]
Jim Kress
And at what point does maybe a spouse or a close friend or parent or a child go to their loved one and say like, okay, not trying to be confrontational, but I'm observing some things like when is it appropriate to have that conversation.
- [25:38]
Guest Speaker
Well, I think that idea is in the wisdom of God searching, going vertical and saying, God, would you prepare me? Prepare that person. That's not a spiritual bypass to say, when is the right. There's a proverb that says a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold and settings of silver. There's a right time to say it. Obviously, when a person, literally, and I get this, I've had it in my office for years, they're sitting there and they know their spouse is drunk and they have a conversation or much more fun when both of them are drunk or three sheets to the wind or whatever. And I said, you're not even going to remember the conversation. So that idea is in a right time again after a meal, something through a lot of prayer, and you're doing your own inventory. Like my friend's book on humility. You're coming in not with a long bony finger. You're actually coming in with some truth and some empathy, not judgment. And so to come in and say, hey, is now a good time? No audience around. There's something I want to talk to you about. I don't need a minute. I need 20 minutes. I do this literally with people. I'll say, these are the hands. I come in peace. It's my stance. We call it. I say, I come in peace. There's some things I want to ask you about and just say or talk to you about that I'm concerned about. I love you. And I'm going to say this like this. I'm going to put it on the table and I'm going to. Literally, I've said before, here, move. Go to the bathroom, walk away and say, you think about. Are you open to a thought? May I share it? And is now a good time? Otherwise, you know, you don't want them in. Conversational claustrophobia, a term I made up where they just want out. They say, sure, now's a good time. And say, look, I don't know if I'm right. If that feels codependent. I don't care for me. I don't know if I'm right. I see some signs. I want to let you know I love you. I love you so much. Especially the more intimate the relationship, the tighter the rules. You got that? Like a marriage, the more intimate relationship, the tighter the rules are. And to say, I've noticed about drinking, it feels like I've seen the drinking going up. I'm not here tonight to say you're an alcoholic. I don't know what you are But I want you to know I'm concerned. Or I saw that you had surgery and you've got the Vicodin or the oxycodone, and it's still in there. I mean, you could take it back to a pharmacy. And then I noticed it looked like it had been moved in the medicine cabinet. I'm seeing some signs or smoking or gambling or financial disorder, which is an addiction. And say, there's just a lot of spending going on. I'm concerned. Are you willing to have a conversation? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And at that point, I think a next step often is to say, you know, what would you consider? Could we find maybe a counselor to go in and say, let's talk about this? You're not really doing an intervention. I'm looking early on. If they're not willing, take a step back, I'll have them stand up in my office and say, take a step back, sir, ma'am, are you willing to be willing? I don't know. Are you willing? Another step back. Willing to be willing to be willing. It's like, yes. Because they may come in and feel like they're just for one, not ready to give it up yet. The rich young rule is a great example of that, which we've talked about here a bunch. So they're, like, thinking, I think, but I want to see. Do they get curious? Are they willing to look at that? And then that's hard for someone who's a spouse to lay it on the table. And then I may circle back, and after a while, I'm saying, I feel like it's gotten worse. It hasn't changed. Your behavior has gotten worse. And that's where I think boundaries start to come in.
- [28:50]
Jim Kress
Do you think that most addictions stem from their need to cope with something? And so they've chosen an unhealthy coping mechanism that has now turned into an addiction?
- [29:04]
Guest Speaker
Zero doubt. Bullseye couldn't say it better. So the coping tool, the problem is it works. Sin is the ultimate addiction. He said, oh, you really go in there. Keith Miller wrote that book, Sin the Ultimate Addiction. So all of us at one level have coping mechanisms. What we want to learn to have is healthy coping mechanisms versus not and.
- [29:24]
Jim Kress
Define what is a coping mechanism.
- [29:26]
Guest Speaker
So anything that's going on, the way I put it in my internal world where I am dysregulated, something's out of order. I maybe have cortisol levels high. I don't feel at ease. Which is why we often say in alcoholism or drugs, dis ease not at ease. Quit saying disease, it's sin. No, it's disease. And with that is so I will look for, and who could blame you from early ages for an external solution to my internal problem? And so the more I do that. You choose the behavior. In all the brain research, let me tell you, you choose the behavior, the brain chooses the addiction. And there is that addicted brain. And you can begin to go on time and time again in what we talk about with neuroplasticity of the brain. It's a rut. And the brain just says, why bother? Why quit? And there's not usually a denial that's there. But there's far more with addiction. A rationale. Which means I've rationalized. At least I'm not the vomited on. I've had this set drunk in the streets. Right. At least I'm not that. I mean, they're on opiates or opium or something like they're doing all this or they're doing that. And they've got six DUIs. I've never had one. So that part is that comparison comes in. But that coping mechanism usually is. If I get time with them, I'll find out what were some of the early pains, usually from childhood. Relational problems. What are you trying to medicate? Because you go into an average person, if they're in pain after surgery, I'm taking your pain away. Your pills. Good luck. So the idea is saying to go and just snatch their pain, quit that alcohol, quit the drugs is not wise. They're trying to medicate some internal reality.
- [31:03]
Jim Kress
And I think there's also some scripts that they've bought into.
- [31:07]
Guest Speaker
Absolutely.
- [31:08]
Jim Kress
That they're telling themselves and call it a scheme of the enemy, call it a trap set by the evil one. But here are some of those scripts that I think that people will say to themselves, like, this isn't that big of a deal.
- [31:25]
Guest Speaker
Minimization.
- [31:26]
Jim Kress
Yep. Or like, what are you talking about? I mean, you have a glass of wine too.
- [31:32]
Guest Speaker
Jesus turned water into wine. Don't you know your Bible? Oh, I've heard it.
- [31:36]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
At least I'm not.
- [31:37]
Jim Kress
Yeah, at least I'm not X, Y and Z. Right.
- [31:40]
Guest Speaker
Your dad was. And you're projecting. See, people will learn, even therapeutic. They'll watch therapy and theology. Seriously. Or something else. And they'll go, well, your dad. You're just projecting or transferring that onto me. I'm wearing your dad's face. I've seen all this and heard all this.
- [31:55]
Jim Kress
And then another one is like, no, like, I'm mature enough. To handle this, you know, or I got this, or even I need this because of my anxiety. Like, you know, isn't it better that I do this to help manage my anxiety rather than that, you know, it.
- [32:12]
Guest Speaker
Helps me be able to go. You don't know the workforce I'm in. I mean, it is a zoo, and the pressure's there, and this calms me down or I can't go to sleep. Quick bullet point. Study it on the brain stuff. It's very simple. Follow Dr. Daniel. Amen. I know who you know and I know is alcohol will help you get to sleep, but when you talk about REM and that restorative sleep we need at night, it disrupts sleep.
- [32:33]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Yeah, totally. I have an aura ring, and the oura ring tells me every time. It's just like, you know, it's like, yeah, it's. That's the self deception, though. The self deception is, oh, this thing's gonna work. It's gonna help me. And in the end, it's actually working against you. It's interesting that our English word narcotics, it actually comes from the Greek word narchao. Narco means to numb out. Right. And so think about it. It's like, I had a conversation some years ago with a friend, and there's something similar, like, start to see some concerns, and we have a very close group of us. And one of the wives had reached out and said, hey, can you just check in on this? And so ended up calling my buddy and just had a conversation and was like, hey, what's your nightly routine? He's like, oh, dude, it's great. Get home. Have you know, this is exactly what it was. It's great. Get home, get the kids in bed. Me and wife, we hang out for a little bit. She goes to bed. I'm a night owl. I'll typically watch a basketball game and have a glass of bourbon. Like, oh, cool. Is that every night? He's like, yeah, pretty much every night. What if there's not a basketball game on? And he'll go, I'll play video games. Oh, cool. Still a bourbon? Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh, so are you having a glass of bourbon every night? Yeah, it's not that big of a deal. He already knew it. He already knew it.
- [33:55]
Guest Speaker
Well, he said that was his defense.
- [33:56]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
He knew it instantly. Back off. We're very close. Like, he knew right now, you know, and we have family members that have, you know, just very similar. And so finally we get into it, and he goes, joel, you don't understand. My day is so Stressful. And then it goes. I'm like, he's admitting it though. Yeah.
- [34:14]
Guest Speaker
That's the pathway to the bourbon.
- [34:16]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
Yes, exactly. Oh, man, Tell me about it. You know, and what it has become is the bourbon is an object that enables him to numb out of that thing that has been chasing him throughout.
- [34:30]
Guest Speaker
The day and be mindful with the rituals leading in. We dare not miss this. That bourbon is not just in the hour of drinking the bourbon, in rituals and in the addiction cycle. We talk about preoccupation, preoccupying the chair, the man cave. So all day long, feeding the brain data of saying, I'm having that bourbon tonight. It is not just. I know you all know that. It's not just, I come now I have it. That's been an all day.
- [34:55]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
That's exactly it.
- [34:56]
Jim Kress
And I can get through this because I know it's coming.
- [34:58]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, I know it's coming. It's a reward.
- [35:00]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
And so this thing is numbing out that thing, but while this thing is supposedly numbing out this thing, it's actually enslaving me to that thing, you know? And so. And that is the deception.
- [35:10]
Jim Kress
That's the deception. I think you really bring up a great point because as I was listening to you about having a conversation, you know, non confrontational, no long bony judgment finger with someone who is struggling with addiction, but they don't have the awareness that it's an addiction. I have heard very few conversations, heard of very few conversations where the person goes, you know, you're right, holy smokes. And so I think it's really, really amazing you said something I think is key is that the wife of your.
- [35:45]
Guest Speaker
Friend, isn't it beautiful?
- [35:47]
Jim Kress
Already had a community of trusted people so that she could call you, which is a very biblical principle. Like, you address it and they don't listen, then go get a brother or sister in Christ, you know. And so I think having that community is really, really important. And I think that's also another unfortunate telltale sign of someone who's struggling in addiction. Eventually they isolate that. They refuse the community aspect of their life. Because the more people that observe and get close, the more people that might notice how they're off or whatever. So my point being is, number one, preventative. Always have a good, solid, trusted community around you. And if you don't have that, then definitely start praying and asking the Lord to reveal and take active steps, steps toward putting you in situations where community can be found. But I want to go back to the conversation about, like, the conversation does.
- [36:50]
Guest Speaker
Not go well, often it won't.
- [36:52]
Jim Kress
Then what?
- [36:53]
Guest Speaker
Let's not go here. But you didn't tell us the other conversation. See, you were ninja like, that's what I call it. You were like Columbo, the detective. Like you were Jesus with that woman there. Who? He's there talking at the well. He's deep into the narrative. Before he knew the answers. Approved it, he says. He leans back. That little statue is in my office. A marble statue of the sea. Tell me about your husband. So she keeps wanting to go up in her head and all that. So people will do that with everything you've laid out. Well, is it really this? And what about that? I'm not like your dad. At least I'm not that. They're doing the same kind of thing. So inside is when you're there. And rarely have I seen it go well. That's why I'm saying, can you phase one, step one, put it on the table and say, I owe it to you more intimate relationship. That I see something, I'm really concerned. I promise I come to you in love. I have a problem. If you're looking for step two, what happens if it doesn't go well? I believe it for me, if there's drunk driving, I've had this many times. And they said, yeah, and he's taking the kids to soccer practice and having a few belts in the car or whatever. That's a different story. Kids are involved, that upset, like quickly, more truly like an intervention. But I always encourage people to leave some time, circle back two, three weeks, try to be in there, keep the relationship going like normal. I'm faking. No, you're not. You're just keeping it. You're not talking about everything. Circle back two to three weeks and notice, is there more data? Is he white knuckling it and trying to stop it, which isn't going to last if that's all he's doing. And say, hey, I want to circle back. Not circling back three minutes later and say, I've noticed. I still see the things I found, alcohol hidden or drugs or I've seen this or that. I'm circling back and letting you know what you're moving toward is boundaries with a consequence. And say, now I'm letting you know, I do this stair step model. I'm on the second step, going, there is a problem. And I need you to ask them to mirror back. This is what I'm struggling with. And then if they get protesting because they're going to feel, oh, what if for a wife, what if she starts to mean business, I've seen it many times. And they're going to feel this person is going to start putting a consequence in, then just what the wife did. Reach out to whoever you can. I don't believe in. I don't want a person to reach out the first day, like to a pastor or somebody brings somebody in, but give them a chance. Almost like Matthew 18, and then say, okay, I'm going to find a couple of people, two or three witnesses, and go and say, I've tried gently. I waited three weeks. I've circled back. He or she, because women have the addictions too, will have no part of it. They're actually turning it back on me. And then say, I need some outside help. And then where do you go from there? It may end up not. You can't drink. Watch. Easier said than done. I won't stay in a relationship with someone who has a drinking problem or is an alcoholic or is a drug addict.
- [39:42]
Jim Kress
And in a marriage situation, that doesn't mean I'm filing for divorce tomorrow. No, it means degrees of separation.
- [39:48]
Guest Speaker
Yep.
- [39:48]
Jim Kress
You know, I think it's really important. Sometimes we hear somebody struggling with something and a verse has been weaponized against me when I'm trying to draw these boundaries. And you know, but this classic verse has been weaponized. Like, didn't Jesus lay down his life? Like didn't, you know, didn't he model for us to lay down our life? You know, and yes, Jesus did lay down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. Jesus did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue.
- [40:22]
Guest Speaker
He was escaping out of crowds left and right. I mean, so the idea and people, even the disciples, you know, Peter, you know, at Caesarea Philippi. So if you look at that, they're making Jesus wrong, the most co dependent person, they're saying, didn't he do that? He had a direct mission, as you've said. Well, from the Father, but he. I still think he's the most boundaried person in all of literature, 100%.
- [40:43]
Dr. Joel Mutamale
He has love. And then he shows that love through his limits. And even Paul in the New Testament says, shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound? Absolutely not. Because that is a disgrace to that sacrifice that Christ has made on the cross.
- [40:56]
Jim Kress
So I want to end with just an illustration today. It can feel like if you're doing life with someone with an addiction, it can feel like they are laying across the train track and the train is barreling toward them and they are not acknowledging it maybe they don't see the train, or maybe they see it and think, the train's not going to hit me. What you see is the train is going to hit you because you are laid across the tracks. It's coming ever closer. There's an urgency here. So out of great love for this person, I run up on the track and I pull them off the track, and I think, whew, you know, crisis averted. The only problem is, if they're an addiction, they're going to climb right back up on the track, and now the train is even closer, and then out of a panic, because you know the consequences are not just going to be felt by them, but it's going to deeply affect your life. So you run back up on the track and you pull them off again. But now the train is even closer and they climb back up on the track. Well, eventually, if you keep going on the track and pulling them off, the train is going to run over you both. And so at some, some point, you are going to have to either get the help that you need, even if they won't participate in counseling, get the help that you need so you can have the wherewithal to let them make their own choices and stop climbing on the track with them. You can help them, but you cannot be their savior. If they are unwilling or incapable of changing and choosing something different than the track, then you've got to have the wherewithal to not step into always rescuing them and the train running over you both. I know this is such a hard conversation, but that's why we're here at therapy and theology is because we want to open up what sometimes stays behind closed doors. And we want to give you hope, we want to give you help. And this is just a starting place. I fully recognize that there are situations out there where you are going to need to find personal help through your own therapist, through pastoral care, something where someone is specifically trained in addictions. Please don't turn to someone who is not trained in addiction. Certainly you can get friendship from a friend, but if you want counseling, you have to go to someone who is trained in this. So we love aacc, that's the American association of Christian Counselors. And we'll put a link so that you can see what trained therapists there are in your area. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Therapy and Theology.
- [43:29]
Lisa Terkeurst
Lisa, Jim and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend. After listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place, place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I want to remind you about Lisa Turker's free resource titled Trust is a Track Record 5 Scriptural Truths to remember God's faithfulness. Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today friends. Thank you so much for tuning into Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 ministries where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.