S9 E1 | “Is This a Red Flag?” Here’s How You Can Know

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapy and Theology Episode: Season 9, Episode 1 – “Is This a Red Flag? Here’s How You Can Know”
Release Date: July 10, 2025
Host: Lysa TerKeurst
Guests: Jim Cress (Licensed Professional Counselor) and Dr. Joel Mutamale (Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries)

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of the Season 9 miniseries, titled “Is This a Red Flag? Here’s How You Can Know,” host Lysa TerKeurst, alongside her guests Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Mutamale, delves into the intricate dynamics of trust and red flags within relationships. The discussion is rooted in both therapeutic insights and theological perspectives, aiming to equip listeners with the understanding needed to identify and navigate potential warning signs in their personal and professional relationships.

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Defining Red Flags in Relationships

[02:32] Lisa TerKeurst:
Lisa opens the conversation by expressing her deep personal connection to the topic of trust, citing her own experiences of having her trust broken multiple times. She emphasizes that red flags are not limited to romantic relationships but extend to friendships, family ties, and even one’s relationship with God.

“Red flags sometimes indicate the roots of distress, but also they can be warnings even before you get into a relationship.”
– Lisa TerKeurst [05:05]

Jim Cress adds that red flags serve as subconscious signals that something might be amiss, urging individuals to pay attention rather than dismissing their intuitive feelings.

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Understanding Trust: Safety and Connection

The trio explores the foundational elements of trust, identifying safety and connection as its cornerstones. Lisa shares her personal tendency to prioritize safety, sometimes at the expense of deep connections.

[05:05] Jim Kress:
Jim acknowledges Lisa’s self-awareness and her approach to distancing herself when safety is compromised.

“I'm going to begin to distance or pull back. That's some good ownership.”
– Jim Kress [06:26]

Dr. Joel Mutamale introduces a theological lens by examining the Hebrew word bata, translated as trust. He notes that trust in God is inherently positive, whereas trust in humans can carry negative connotations, highlighting the fragile nature of human relationships.

“Trust is at the very center of that [relationship with God].”
– Dr. Joel Mutamale [08:42]

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Theological Insights on Trust and Relationships

Dr. Joel delves into the biblical context, referencing Genesis to illustrate how God designed relationships with inherent safety and connection. He questions why God created Adam and Eve first, suggesting that their initial relationship was meant to reflect an ideal balance of safety and connection.

[08:08] Dr. Joel Mutamale:

“God intends for Adam and Eve's first experience in Eden to be within the context of safety and connection.”
– Dr. Joel Mutamale

Lisa echoes this sentiment by highlighting Genesis 2, emphasizing the absence of shame and the presence of pure love and acceptance, which were eroded in Genesis 3 with the entrance of sin.

“There was safety and connection even in that [Eden].”
– Lisa TerKeurst [10:29]

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Personal Experiences and Vulnerabilities

The conversation shifts to personal anecdotes, where Lisa shares her early 20s experiences of prioritizing connection over safety, leading her to overlook red flags in her relationships. Jim discusses his anxious attachment style, stemming from childhood, which makes him prioritize connection, often at the risk of compromising safety.

[21:53] Jim Kress:
Jim reveals his vulnerability regarding connections being hijacked or hotwired, emphasizing the importance of time in assessing the authenticity of relationships.

“I want to vet it and say, give it some time. After a while, most people can't pull off ongoingly hijacking or hot wiring a connection.”
– Jim Kress [23:09]

Dr. Joel Mutamale acknowledges his own susceptibility to sacrificing safety for connection, often rationalizing problematic behaviors to maintain relationships.

“I will condone the lack of safety. I will make excuses for it.”
– Dr. Joel Mutamale [25:22]

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Risks of Prioritizing Connection Over Safety

The discussion highlights the dangers of overvaluing connection, which can lead to staying in unhealthy relationships by excusing or minimizing red flags. Lisa emphasizes that this imbalance can transform a positive, generous individual into someone guarded and skeptical.

[29:15] Lisa TerKeurst:

“Living with that kind of skepticism, I've discovered, can turn me into someone that I am not.”
– Lisa TerKeurst [29:15]

Jim and Dr. Joel reinforce the idea that rationalizing red flags undermines the foundation of trust and can lead to emotional exhaustion and eventual relationship breakdowns.

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Unpacking Trust Issues: A Nuanced Approach

Lisa introduces the importance of distinguishing between different types of trust issues. She differentiates between not trusting someone as a moral person versus not trusting someone to be responsible, underscoring the need for clarity when addressing trust concerns.

[18:36] Lisa TerKeurst:

“Trust is a really big word. When we say trust, does that mean that we don't trust that they are a moral person or do we not trust that they are a responsible person.”
– Lisa TerKeurst [17:09]

This nuanced understanding allows individuals to address specific issues rather than making blanket judgments about a person’s character.

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Conclusion and Next Steps

As the episode wraps up, Lisa previews the next installment in the miniseries, promising a deeper dive into eleven relational red flags. She encourages listeners to reflect on their relationships and consider downloading the free resource, “Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships,” to further guide their personal growth and relational health.

“True trustworthy relationships require connection. Super important. Can't have a relationship if you have no connection. But it's going to be really hard to have connection without real safety.”
– Lisa TerKeurst [29:42]

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Key Takeaways

1. Red Flags Extend Beyond Romance: Red flags are present in all types of relationships, including friendships and family ties, not just romantic ones.

2. Foundations of Trust: Trust in relationships is built on safety and connection. Balancing these elements is crucial for healthy interactions.

3. Theological Perspective: Biblical narratives, such as Genesis, illustrate the ideal balance of safety and connection, which relationships often deviate from due to sin and human fallibility.

4. Personal Awareness: Understanding one’s own tendencies—whether prioritizing safety over connection or vice versa—can help in identifying and addressing red flags effectively.

5. Nuanced Trust Issues: Differentiating between types of trust issues (e.g., moral vs. responsible trust) allows for more targeted and constructive resolutions.

6. Long-Term Impacts: Ignoring red flags for the sake of connection can lead to emotional exhaustion, disillusionment, and the eventual breakdown of relationships.

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Notable Quotes

• Lisa TerKeurst [05:05]:
  “Red flags sometimes indicate the roots of distress, but also they can be warnings even before you get into a relationship.”

• Jim Kress [06:26]:
  “I'm going to begin to distance or pull back. That's some good ownership.”

• Dr. Joel Mutamale [08:42]:
  “Trust is at the very center of that [relationship with God].”

• Lisa TerKeurst [10:29]:
  “There was safety and connection even in that [Eden].”

• Jim Kress [23:09]:
  “I want to vet it and say, give it some time. After a while, most people can't pull off ongoingly hijacking or hot wiring a connection.”

• Dr. Joel Mutamale [25:22]:
  “I will condone the lack of safety. I will make excuses for it.”

• Lisa TerKeurst [29:15]:
  “Living with that kind of skepticism, I've discovered, can turn me into someone that I am not.”

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Resources Mentioned

• Free Resource: Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships by Lisa TerKeurst. Download Link

• Sponsored Content: Chosen’s exclusive webinar on understanding attachment styles – Access for listeners at ChosenCareP31.

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Listener Engagement

The hosts encourage listeners to share their experiences by leaving ratings, written reviews, or voice memos. They also invite listeners to support Proverbs 31 Ministries to continue producing impactful content.

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Stay Tuned:
Don’t miss the next episode where Lisa, Jim, and Joel will explore six of the eleven relational red flags, diving deeper into the roots of distrust and the often inexplicable “ick” feelings we experience in our interactions.

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Thank you for tuning into Therapy and Theology. Empower yourself to work through what you walk through by staying connected with our insightful discussions.

Transcript

[Shay Hill]

This episode of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by our friends at Chosen, a nonprofit that equips parents and caregivers with tools to help children heal. They're offering an exclusive webinar training for our listeners all about understanding attachment styles and how your past may be impacting your reactions to their behavior. Because you're a veteran valued Therapy and Theology podcast listener, you get exclusive Access for just $10 head to Chosen Care P31 that's Chosen Care P31 to register and be equipped to bring a deeper connection into your home.

Hi friend. Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host Shay Hill and I'm so glad you're joining me for this special summer miniseries on Red Flags. In this first episode, Lisa, Jim and Joel will tackle the question what is a red flag? But before we jump in, I have a few things that I want to share with you. First, you know we are all about equipping you with resources to help you even after an episode ends. So so for this miniseries, make sure you download a free resource by Lisa Turkers titled is this 15 red flags yous may Be Missing in youn Relationships? This resource will help you get honest about the effects unhealthy relational dynamics are having on you with a guided list to process through so you can tend to your own emotional well being in a biblical way. Next, I thought it would be fun to share this review from one of you guys. Here's what this listener said. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You are changing lives guys. Isn't that awesome? We love hearing how therapy and theology is making a difference in your life and we'd love to hear your story too. So just leave a rating and a written review and maybe I'll share it in an upcoming episode. Or you can even leave us a voice memo or a specific question by following the link to our listener mail in the show notes below. Lastly, we'd be so appreciative if you'd partner with Proverbs 31 Ministries financially to continue making the life changing content on the therapy and the podcast. Simply go to proverbs31.org backslash give to make a one time donation or you can even partner with us monthly. Now onto the show.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Welcome to this episode of therapy and theology. I'm Lisa Terkeurst. I'm joined, of course by the one and only Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale. Thank you, guys. I have been studying the subject of trust as it relates to trust in relationships and even our trust with God for several years now. There was a deeply personal reason that I wanted to study this topic of trust. Mostly because I had my trust broken many, many times over and over in deep ways. And it affected my friendships, it affected my family, it affected even the core of my own discernment that I really counted on and thought that I was in tune with the Holy Spirit and had this discernment and certainly my trust with the Lord too. Sometimes when you feel like you cannot understand what God allows, it can almost feel like a betrayal as well. So I've been studying this topic a lot, and today I want to laser focus in on the makings of trust. And for the purpose of this little micro series that we're doing in therapy theology, we want to get to red flags, because red flags sometimes indicate the roots of distress, but also they can be warnings even before you get into a relationship. Sometimes when people hear red flags, though, they think, oh, they're going to talk about dating. No, we are not going to talk about dating. Or actually, maybe dating applies here, but we're going to expand it so much bigger because we want to get to the essence of why we sometimes get an ick feeling when we're interacting with someone else. Maybe we're wondering, why do I feel like this person isn't telling me the truth? Maybe we're wondering, why does this person always show up late? Can I really count on them? Maybe we're wondering, is this person being faithful? And can I really trust this person with my heart? I don't know why you've recently experienced the ick, but what I do know is it's the this awkward feeling of questioning our safety. Am I safe enough to give this person or reveal to this person a piece of my vulnerable heart? So let's back it all the way up. What does trust require in a relationship? As I've studied it, I've decided trust requires safety and connection.

[Jim Kress]

Good. Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

In other words, we want to connect relationally, but we at the same time want to know that we're safe in doing so. How risky is this relationship? All relationships carry risk with it, but we want to minimize the risk to the point where we feel safe as we connect. Now here's something fascinating with some people I've noticed me, maybe it's because of my family origin history. Jim loves to dive into.

[Jim Kress]

We shift into a counseling session here.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

I know this is my free counseling opportunity. That's why I love doing these.

[Shay Hill]

Therapy and theology, right?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay. Maybe it's because of some theological reason, I don't know. But here's what I know. I tend to be the kind of person who I prioritize safety so high that sometimes I diminish my ability to deeply connect. I want to be safe. I want to connect, but I'd rather be safe. And if I don't feel safe, then I'm really going to distance myself down to where the connection is not very deep in a relationship.

[Jim Kress]

I like how you own that, too. So brilliantly. Going to distance myself, the other person, or the red flag itself is not distancing. I'm going to begin to distance or pull back. That's some good ownership. I mean to go, I'm aware, self aware. I'm going to distance myself.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Now, there's other times in my life, and yes, I'm going to personalize it because I can keeping it real. I'm the one that has the mic right now. So there have been other seasons in my life, especially when I was in my early 20s, when I desired connection so high that I diminished safety by ignoring red flags, obvious warning signs, things that I sensed weren't right, but I overlooked them or chose not to pay attention to them because I so wanted a connection in this relationship. I wanted this relationship. I liked what this relationship gave me, so I prioritized connection so high and I diminished safety. The secret to a healthy relationship that has trust. And I do believe trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. We want to bring those things back into balance. We want both safety and connection.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

So good, Lisa. So I think one of the things that's super important in this, too, is as we're studying about trust, we kind of looked at the Hebrew word bata. And so fascinating that whenever this Hebrew word bata, which we translate in English, is trust. When the object of trust is God, it's always positive. But when the object of that trust is other humans or things, it flips and it becomes a negative context. And what you're saying about safety and connection, I think is so vitally, foundationally, theologically important, because in the opening pages of Scripture, in Genesis, when God creates, like, have you ever wondered this? Why doesn't God create Adam and Eve first? Like, okay, this is like this. And Jim, you're probably gonna, like, like, therapies me at Some point.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

You mean before.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Before the creation.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Darkness. Yeah.

[Jim Kress]

Wondering what I'm gonna think?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah, I have. I have this deep thing I was trying to figure out, like, what do other people think about me? And so now I'm like, I just.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Wasn'T sure if you were like, why did he create Adam and Eve first as opposed to, like, Michael Jordan?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

No, no, no, no. Like, okay, so the story creation. Right? Story creation.

[Jim Kress]

I'm impressed.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I'm so shook right now because normally I'm the first one who brings in the Michael Jordan. And you did. This is evidence of discipleship gone. Everybody to know. After almost nine years in ministry together, I got you talking about mj. This is like a highlight reel moment.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

All right, reel it in, Joel.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

All right, so, okay, this. I do think this is important. Okay. Just think, why wouldn't God create Adam and Eve first and then kind of have them in the stands to witness all of the grandeur of, you know, light and darkness? That'd be kind of epic, right? I actually think this is incredibly intentional. You see, God intends for Adam and Eve's first experience in Eden to be within the context of safety and connection, right? They wake up and they go, everything is rightly ordered. Everything is beautiful. Everything is where it should be. And on top of all of that, we get to walk and talk with God himself. So I just want to just as a fundamental question of is this theologically accurate? Is this actually what the scriptures point to? I just want to just, like, show exegetically it absolutely is. And so that impulse that we have to long for safety and to long for connection is actually an impulse that's given to us by God himself. And so he so designed these longings and these desires to be experienced in a place of balance where there is safety so you can have connection or there's connection because of the presence of safety. And what you've just done, though, is I think you've identified the Genesis 3 impact on this question, which is now there is a fight for the one or the other. Is there an overbalance for the one and the lesser for the other? And so, just from a biblical standpoint, I think what you're saying is so important because I don't think I've read Genesis 1, 2, and 3 was in the context of safety and security and the impact it would have had on Adam and Eve's relationship with each other and for sure with their relationship with God and how trust is at the very center of that.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And isn't it interesting, the last verse of Genesis 2, right before we get to Genesis 3, it says, and Adam and Eve were both naked and they felt no shame. In other words, they could stand vulnerably before God and with each other, and they had no other opinion to contend with but the absolute pure love of God and the acceptance of one another. So there was safety and connection even in that. Now, what's interesting, as we get into Genesis 3, we find the erosion of connection, but I would also say the erosion of that feeling of security and safety, for sure, because when sin enters in, chaos enters in, there's shaming, there's blaming, there's all kinds of relational issues, dysfunction, that happens. But I think as I look at it, I want to cast a vision for what I think is so important when we talk about building relationships that are safe. So when you get into a relationship, you have a vision for what you think this relationship could be, whether a friendship. And. And you could say vision, you could say expectations, you could even say assumptions. Okay, but we. We have a thought. We. We have this idea, this vision for what this relationship is going to be. If you get into that relationship, then. And suddenly you realize, whoa, we value different things. That's going to be an issue. And as we talk about these red flags in our next episode, today, we're building the foundation. In our next episode, we're going to go through 11 relational red flags that are really important to examine not just preventatively, but also to examine where are the roots of distrust in our already existing relationships. But back to vision. So we have vision, then you have value. What do you each value? That needs to be pretty consistent, because what you value is what you will prioritize. What you prioritize will determine your choices. Your choices then directly impact the direction you go, the actions you take, the words you say. Now, we started off at vision, but you see how we work down. If we value different things, we prioritize different things, we choose different things, we go in different directions, we take different actions, we're speaking different words. That vision that used to be unified suddenly becomes two different visions. We're prioritizing different things, we're making different choices, we are going in different directions. So suddenly now, the vision becomes die vision. And that division is where often trust is broken, betrayal can happen, disillusionment, disappointment, destructive relationships, dysfunction. It all starts to emerge. So, oh, wise therapist, what are your.

[Jim Kress]

Well, I love the rhythm and the stair, stepping down into that. And even the parsing or the pronunciation of the word division, where I start here, from vision to die. Vision. And then as we talk about these red flags, I'm always curious with people gently, when did you see your first red flag? And you may be like, well, that's just, he's having a bad day or she's having a bad day. And it's like, I don't know if you've ever seen this in traffic or ever experienced it. Like, there's a stoplight, it's got red flags on a red light. And then the yellow light is my energy. When I see the yellow light, which is caution, I'm gonna hit the gas and get through it as many people would do. Or even the red light, okay, nobody else is coming. I can do it. We do that autonomically. Many people do that. I know Joel does it on a daily basis.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Joel, are you seeing through yellow lights?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I mean, not with.

[Jim Kress]

No, not with your kids. Outside of that look out. No. But there's a sense of all these things, these stair stepping down. And then when you see that first red flag and what did you do? And I think people then become, if they're not already self aware and go, yeah, I saw that. But I thought, well, he'll change or she'll change or whatever. And then two, three, four red flags in. Yeah, but it's like. And it's almost like that prefrontal cortex is offline. And sometimes it's so neurochemically woo woo driven that it will go offline. Yeah, that's just. And I move it aside when the red flags are clearly there. But you start from vision clear down here. And values, yeah, that is my value. But I've had people in my office many times say, but if I say that, you know, the third date in this is a value, or somebody says something, I'm like, hey, I'm not okay with that. Then I'll just lose the person. And again, as you said eloquently, this is not about dating. It happens in friendships. Do I really want to say that someone's cracking a joke, saying something here, talking about something that I don't feel comfortable with. And I go, yeah, but then they'll just think, you know, I'm just being legalistic. So I think the red flags are there. And we're walking right through our. Blowing right through our values all the way down when I know, yeah, I'm not okay with that in any relationship.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Now let's take a quick break to.

[Shay Hill]

Share about our sponsor for this episode, Chosen. Chosen is a nonprofit that equips parents and caregivers with tools to Help Children Heal. As a parent to five children and now Gigi to eight adorable grandchildren, I care so deeply about children's hearts, how they process or don't process, their emotions, their struggles, and a path toward healing. If you're a parent, maybe you've wondered why your child pushes away when you desperately want them to lean in. This is connected to a topic called Attachment Style that we've discussed here on therapy and Theology. As you explore both your own attachment style and your child's, our friends at Chosen are here to support you with compassionate trauma informed guidance. I'm excited to announce they're offering an exclusive interactive webinar to help parents and caregivers gain insight into why certain behaviors are so triggering. Learn the different types of attachments styles and discover how to build stronger connections with your child. No matter what your own upbringing, you'll walk away with practical tools that can make a real difference for you and your family. And here's the best part. Because you're a valued therapy and theology listener, you get access for just $10. So take advantage of this opportunity and head to Chosen That's Chosen Care p.31 to register for the webinar that's Chosen Care p.31. Now back to the episode.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

The other thing that I think we can unpack for just a minute here is sometimes you're in a relationship and it's an already existing relationship and all of a sudden something happens and you think, this is what I think. I go, well, I mean, everyone makes mistakes. Everyone has a bad day, everyone's in a bad mood. So I tend to Pollyanna, it's rationalization.

[Shay Hill]

A little bit, very much.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And I tend to just want to give them the benefit of the doubt, right? Because I'm hyper aware. I make mistakes, I get in a bad mood. I sometimes have bad days, right? And so then, okay, so it happens once and it happens again, and then it happens again and then it happens again. And all of a sudden I'm like, I'm feeling like I'm not okay with this. And what I'm really feeling is I'm not sure that I can count on this person. I'm not sure that I'm safe with this person. I'm not sure that I really know this person's real intentions. And so I start to say, like, I'm not sure that I can trust this person. Now, trust is a really big word. So when we say trust, does that mean that we don't trust that they are a moral person or do we not trust that they are a responsible person.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Sure.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Because those two things are vastly different. So I think another great thing that we're going to do is we unpack these red flags. And certainly immorality is one of the red flags we're going to cover.

[Jim Kress]

That'd be a big one.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Irresponsibility, Another red flag that we're going to really talk about. But the reason it's so important is because these may have different implications. As you say, I'm struggling to trust this person. Irresponsibility. Joel, this is just for the sake of an example here. I'm not saying this is true. Maybe sometimes it's true, but not all the time it's true. Joel, I'm struggling to trust you, hypothetically speaking or not, because you sometimes don't show up on time. Okay.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. So this is not hypothetical. This is called. First of all, this is called. You did write a book, Indian Standard Time. And sometimes as a culture, we end up showing up a little bit late.

[Jim Kress]

You remember children.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Joel, this is a therapy. This is not an ethnic issue. You. This is a time management.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay, I'm back. I'm back.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Oh, here we go.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I did write a book on humility. This is me accepting in humility. That is a true statement sometimes.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, but for real.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah, for real.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

So I may have this thought, like, joel's not going to show up on time. And so I may have this thought, I don't know that I can trust that Joel's going to be there on time. That is a big difference from me saying that to me saying, I don't trust Joel and the rest of the sentences, because I think he lies all the time. Okay? So that's what I mean. Like this word trust. Like, if you're struggling to not trust someone, it's really important to unpack that. That is a very broad term for a lot of specific situations that some are more serious than others. Like my trust issue with you might be, you disappoint me, but you're not going to betray me. You're not going to turn against me and start saying all kinds of crazy things about me because you're an immoral person or you're not going to suddenly do something, you know, and all of a sudden make me go, wow, I thought he was a theologian. I thought he knew the Bible, and now he doesn't know the Bible.

[Jim Kress]

That would be catastrophic.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That would be catastrophic. Right. But him not showing up on time is so vastly different, and yet we attach it to a trust issue in a relationship.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so that's another reason that I think it's really important to really think through and understand. So I have this question. In relationships, do you tend to prioritize connection? And people who prioritize connection sometimes are people pleasers. Sometimes they are people that they just are very, very relationally. And maybe they're impressed by influential people. And so they really want to connect with these influential people. Whatever. So do you tend to prioritize connection or do you tend to prioritize safety? Like, I have a general skepticism of all people, so therefore I'm going to make sure that I'm safe before I even potentially connect.

[Jim Kress]

That's an easy one for me. And we've done programs on this. I have had from childhood an anxious attachment style. So when things can get moments of weakness that can still come out. If I feel connected with you and I really feel in that connection, good or not good, doesn't matter. In the moment, experientially, I will feel safe. So I'm going to always be wired more directly, primarily for connection, not safety first. But that comes out of my story. Feeling abandonment issues, childhood, whatever you want to call it. And then if I feel like there's a real connection here, safety on boards very organically for me.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, so what are the dangers for a person who tends to prioritize connection more than safety? What are some of the dangers? Because I know a lot of people can relate to that.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah. I tell you, one of the biggest ones for me personally, since we've been incredibly personal here at the table today, is there are people who know how to hot wire or hijack a connection. They're doing that to me. And he's a strong word here to even seduce me non sexually, but just to pump me up, to inflate me or to fake the connection. But still neurochemically I can feel like, wow, this person affirms me, they like me. They may have ulterior motives.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Right.

[Jim Kress]

Something, whatever that might be. So I have to say, is this connection like hotwired or hijacked that quickly or has it progressed over time? And if I give any connection time and let it play out, I'll know like, oh, this person was after something in me. That's why the connection went so intense so quickly. So I want to vet it and say, give it some time. After a while, most people can't pull off ongoingly hijacking or hot wiring a connection. If you give it some time, you'll be like, okay, I'm no longer. They've Gotten what they need or they find out they're not going to get from me what they wanted. So I have to assess that. That's a big assessment for me. That's them. They don't want to pay attention to me. Am I really feeling again neurochemically like wow, this person likes me or they are, they think I'm a great therapist or whatever. That's a trick for a lot of people, you're the best. You do all this. And they're wanting me to maybe a little therapeutic here to not ever confront them. If they pump me up then like now don't ever confront me on something. So I want to assess what's going on in me going, Jim, you're getting a little too much of a hit off this affirmation.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

That's self awareness, I think so I'm prone towards connection for sure. And so Jim, you can evaluate the statement. But for me, what I've realized is I can so long for connection with people that I'm willing to excuse, compromise safety in that relationship.

[Jim Kress]

Amen.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, explain that a little bit more.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Okay. So I so long for connection with people, right? Like I enjoy that. That's something that brings value to me. Probably definitely goes with childhood, all kinds of other stuff in my life. So in my mind, because that's such a high value proposition for me, if there's the absence of safety in that relationship, that person hurts me. That person is unreliable. The person says mean and hurtful things. Because in my brain I so long for that connection. The consequence of that for me is I will condone the lack of safety. I will make excuses for it. I didn't really mean it that way. It's not that big of a deal. I'll minimize the reality of the lack of safety because I so want connection.

[Jim Kress]

And our word there is. You are rationalizing it. We got to think it's a therapy word. But it's also a philosophical word and a theological word. I'm rationalizing, saying, well, and your voice is often pitching people, they change. Well, you know, hey, I mean, I see this, but so you have some awareness in that moment that you're rationalizing.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Right.

[Jim Kress]

You may not call it that, but that's what's going on.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

And so what are the long term effects when that happens and you're excusing away other people's behavior, thus minimizing the effects of their disrespect or their disloyalty or their irresponsibility towards you? What are the long term effects when you're like, no, I want this connection. I want this connection. I want this connection.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. What I've realized is in those situations that that connection was never really a good connection in the first place. That's the first. And then the connection is in terms of monologue versus dialogue. It is monologue. It is me seeking after that connection. There's often not reciprocity of the connection back because if there was, there'd be a desire for safety to be in that relationship. And so what happens is, over a long period of time, I will be exhausted, I will be spent out. And then it does get catastrophic. Because at some point, I'm kind of like the all in or all out kind of guy. And when I'm all in, like, I'll go down in the shop, ship with y'.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

All.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Like, I am your die hard, like, I'm ride or die type of friend. But there will come a point in time where I will just go, wow, I've been taken. Like, I have been taken at such an extreme level. And then my response is extreme in light of it. Like, I'll just be like, I'm done.

[Jim Kress]

If I didn't know better. I think you were an enneagram3.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

You do know.

[Jim Kress]

If I didn't know.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, so let me just pick one more. Just a little bit more. Because you're younger than Jim and I. I know that. Shocking. Hard to believe. Okay, that's true. Much younger you. Much younger. One time he called me spiritual mother and I was like, I am a little older than you, but can you call me your spiritual sister, please?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And I have ever since then, never again slipped on that.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Okay, but do you find that because of where you're at in your career, this emerges in a professional sense? Because it's so right now, connections are important. And I'm asking legitimately. It's not because I'm witnessing something in behavior, but I'm just fascinated. People in your age dynamic where you're growing your career, do you see this happen professionally as well as personally? Yeah.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I had a long conversation with a friend about this recently where I have gotten to the point where I'm disenfranchised with that connection. And I have. This is like a real therapy session. I now have this thought in the back of my mind, like, okay, when's the ask gonna happen? When is the expectation going to come? When is, you know, like. And it's like, do you really want me for me or for what I could potentially offer in this relationship? And vice versa, Do I really, like this person for who they are. Like, I enjoy, like, just to say, like, Lisa and Jim, we're real friends outside of this. That's how we can laugh and banter the way that we do. How many hours have we played games where you have just destroyed me every time? I will not play Monopoly. I won't play Monopoly. I just won't do it anymore.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

It's a Monopoly deal.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

But that's why he's losing.

[Jim Kress]

He. The wrong.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I got the wrong name. You know, Jim and I just. Up here, we were talking about, hey, after our Haven Place retreat, we're gonna watch a basketball game together.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

So I feel very uninvited all of a sudden.

[Jim Kress]

Hey, there's a book by that title. It's out there.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I mean, yeah, so. So for me, it's also like, do I really enjoy these people? Not just because of what I like, the contemplation of that, but, like, do I really. Outside of everything else, like, yeah, man, these are people that I enjoy that are of good character, that are making. As my friend, an ancient philosopher once said, imperfect progress is still progress. Her name is Lisa Terker. But I mean, I think that those are important things. I need to be.

[Jim Kress]

No question.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

That's great. So I'm a little different. I prioritize safety, and I'm not sure that I've always prioritized safety higher than connection. But for me, I'm, like, very skeptical. Like, and. And I. I have a little bit of that, like, okay, what do they want from me? You know, what are their expectations eventually going to be of me? I can't keep up with unrealistic and so many times.

[Jim Kress]

Voicemail is full.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

My voicemail is full and has been since 2017. I think it's actually the most. One of the most brilliant things I've ever done.

[Jim Kress]

No, no question.

[Lisa Terkeurst]

Yes. Because it's just like, you know, no, I don't have to carry the weight of everyone else's to do list because they can't dump it into my voicemail box. Right. But I prioritize safety so high now. And I have to really watch that because what will happen for me is I prioritize safety. I start instead of looking for the best potential in relationships, I start having an expectation. When is the shoe going to drop? Like, when is it that they're going to hurt me? When is it that they're going to betray me? When is it that they're going to reveal their true motivations and intentions? And living with that kind of skepticism? I've discovered can has the potential to turn me into someone that I am not. I'm a very positive person. I'm a lover of people, I'm generous and all of that. So that's why safety is important. But I have to make sure that that safety isn't a dysfunction that I'm clinging onto, where I'm using that as an excuse for behavior that I really need to address within me so we can bring it back into balance. Because true trustworthy relationships require connection. Super important. Can't have a relationship if you have no connection. But it's going to be really hard to have connection without real safety. So in the next episode, we're going to dive into these 11 relational red flags. Actually, we're only gonna have time for six, so I'm just gonna go ahead and give that little spoiler alert. But in my book, I wanna trust you, but I don't. You'll get all 11. Yeah, but you do not wanna miss the next episode on Red flags. But also Roots of Distrust. Why do we have that ick feeling when we're wondering, is this person trustworthy or not?

[Shay Hill]

Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to download your free resource Titled Is this Normal? 15 Red Flags yous May Be Missing in youn Relationships? We've linked it for you in the show notes below. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you know the truth and live the truth because it changes everything. That's it for today's episode. But before you go, I want to tell you about a powerful way you can help Proverbs 31 ministries bridge the gap for even more listeners who need access to trusted therapy and biblically sound theology. Since launching this podcast, we've impacted hundreds of thousands of listeners. Here's what one of them said in a recent review. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You really are changing lives. The Therapy and Theology Podcast is one of the many free resources we offer because listeners like you make it possible. So today I want to invite you to be a part of our listeners stories. To be a part of the life change that happens every single day because of those who say yes when they're asked to give. Because when you give, you help another soul know and live the truth that truly changes everything. You can give a donation today at proverbs31.org donate.