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- [00:04]
A
This episode of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by our friends at Chosen, a nonprofit that equips parents and caregivers with tools to help children heal. They're offering an exclusive webinar training for our listeners all about understanding attachment styles and how your past may be impacting your reactions to their behavior. Because you're a veteran valued Therapy and Theology Podcast listener, you get exclusive Access for just $10 head to Chosen Care P31 that's Chosen Care P31 to register and be equipped to bring a deeper connection into your home.
- [00:53]
B
Hi friend, welcome back to the Therapy and Theology Podcast. I'm your host, Shea Hill, and wherever you're tuning in from today, I'm so glad you're here. Right now we are in a special summer miniseries on Red Flags and we're back today to deliver Episode two. In this episode, Lisa, Jim and Joel will talk about six red flags to be aware of. But before we jump in, I have a few things that I want to tell you. First, you know we are all about equipping you with resources to help you even after an episode ends. So for this miniseries make sure you download a free resource by Lisa Turkers titled is normal 15 red flags you may be missing in your relationships. This resource will help you get honest about the effects unhealthy relational dynamics are having on you with a guided list to process through so you can tend to your own emotional well being in a biblical way. Next, I thought it would be fun to share this review from one of you guys. Here's what this listener said. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You are changing lives guys. Isn't that awesome? We love hearing how therapy and theology is making a difference in your life and we'd love to hear your story too. So just leave a rating and a written review and maybe I'll share it in an upcoming episode. Or you can even leave us a voice memo or a specific question by following the link to our listener mail in the show notes below. Lastly, we'd be so appreciative if you'd partner with Proverbs 31 Ministries financially to continue making the life changing content on the Therapy and the podcast. Simply go to proverbs31.org give to make a one time donation or you can even partner with us monthly. Now onto the show Hi, welcome back.
- [02:34]
A
To therapy and theology. I'm Lisa Terkers with Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale. We had such an interesting conversation in the last episode and really talking about what's required for trust in a relationship. We really took a deep dive into safety and connection. We made a lot of personal admissions. We have a little therapy session right here at the table. If you missed that episode, you're gonna wanna go back and listen to it. Today I wanna talk about some relational red flags in my new book. I wanna trust you, but I don't. I actually unpack 11 red flags today. We're only gonna have time to dive into six. So I wanna define them, I wanna talk about them. Let's do some more personal admission around them.
- [03:22]
C
Okay, Jim, this is your turn now.
- [03:24]
A
Okay, perfect. So, Jim, you're confession on this one. And the reason that this is important because we're not just talking about red flags in the context of dating. So many times when people hear red flags, it's like, oh, because you're dating? No, we want to talk about red flags that are present often when we get an ick feeling in a relationship. Have you ever been in a situation where you really like this person but then they do something and you're like, huh?
- [03:56]
C
It's like, I really like you, but then you have an Android phone. And I'm like, oh, Joel, my bad.
- [04:02]
A
Sorry. Okay. They do take good pictures. Okay, whatever. I'm just trying to Pollyanna it a little bit. Okay. Because there's listeners out there like androids. Okay. Yeah, we don't want to.
- [04:15]
C
Like, I was studying some Hebrew and every time, every time we get one of those green bubbles, you know what actually happens? An angel loses its wings. Joel, it's okay.
- [04:25]
A
I apologize that we have had this one off situation here in therapy and theology.
- [04:30]
C
Red flags right there.
- [04:31]
A
This is a red flag right here. This is a red flag. Have you ever been in a situation where you get this ick feeling and you're like, something seems off, right?
- [04:41]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [04:42]
A
And you don't really know why, but you walk away going, I'm not sure I can trust that person. And we talked about in the last episode that I don't know if I can trust that person. Such a big statement. So as we talk about these red flags, these warnings, these little indicators that maybe something is off in the relationship. I also want us to think about it not just preventatively like in new relationships, but we can use these red flags in the context of why there's distrust or where is the distrust coming from and how severe is it in my existing relationships? Okay, so let's start with red flag number one, incongruity. And the way I defined incongruity is this person wants people to perceive them one way, but then they act in a completely different way. Their words don't match how they actually live on a day to day basis. In other words, their insides don't match their outsides.
- [05:42]
C
Yeah, that's a good one. I think of the, the brilliant ancient languages scholar Eugene Peterson, who was the translator paraphraser of the message, and he's got an incredible book called Long Obedience in the same direction. And in it he really talks about this concept of incongruity. And the way he frames it is, you know, that what is inside of us is true of what is outside of us. And when there is an incongruity, when there is a tension between what is inside and out, our body and our soul and our heart longs for that tension to be resolved. And so then the question is, how does that get resolved? What wins out in the resolving the thing that is true and godly or the thing that is sinful and the thing that is actually destructive to your humanity? And so this incongruity one is a significant one biblically because this is the issue that God is trying to communicate to the people of Israel throughout the entire Old Testament. You are a chosen holy people. You are a holy like priestly royal priesthood. Like you're set apart for a purpose. But if there's an incongruency of who you are and what you're doing, then that's a significant issue.
- [06:55]
A
I like to think of it as just in my own personal life, like, am I being mastered by my desire or am I being mastered by the Spirit of God? And you know, that sounds like, ooh, that's really big. But it's basically what Paul says. Am I living according to the flesh or am I living according to the Spirit?
- [07:18]
C
Right, yeah, Galatians 5.
- [07:19]
A
And Paul also very much says, why is it that I sometimes do the very thing I don't want to do? Right. And so it's not that this person has mistakes that happen. We all make mistakes. We all sometimes choose a personal desire over the Spirit of God or the Word of God. You know, we are all sinners, we all fall short. Right? But I think the secret is with the incongruity is, is this a pattern, not just a mistake, but is this a pattern that they refuse to acknowledge or be repentant? From. And that's where it's almost like their operating system is. I'm going to save this because it'll paint a picture that I want people to believe about me, but in the inside, or like people who live with me behind closed doors are experiencing this. And so I. And that person sees no need to change. They see no need to work on this. I don't know what your thoughts are.
- [08:24]
D
Well, they might enjoy you getting activated or dysregulated. They might enjoy that you're believing at the poker table of life. They're bluff. So if I'm going down the road and I see a nice billboard, right, Of a restaurant, I go, wow, that looks good. They might be electronically flashing the pictures of the food. Then I get in the restaurant, and so there's their marketing, right? And the marketing's on the menu. My friend and mutual friend that you News in Heaven. Bill Lokey. He was a professional photographer for a long time, and he taught me one time, showed me how they enhance even any of your favorite hamburger joints. They enhance it with all kinds of stuff you wouldn't believe to make it look like that. I'm like, if you're going to tell me all that, I'd rather you let me get to the food, let me taste. I'm not going to find out in one meal. I see the billboard, I see the menu. Wow. This is what. This is your Madison Avenue. This is your marketing. This is who I am. And don't you see you're kind of selling me at that moment, in that moment, I go, I got to taste the food. And any of us have ever had one time where you thought the food I just ate incongruent does not match the picture or just the presentation coming off the counter. That sandwich looked like this or fancy, and it's smashed down. So if I give it a little bit of time to go this and listen to my gut. That's a good word, to go. You're saying all this, but something's off. Then I can explore contemptibly inside myself to go with contemplation what's in me where I don't trust what's going on. Most people like that. They're going to show you something that's fake, incongruent. One time, they'll do it twice third time. So how many times it takes for you to go. Now this loan's. This lines up. This is a pattern with this person. I think a lot of this trust building takes some time. Maybe they're having a one off Bad day. But that person will show you a mirage a couple or two, three times, and it's up to you to go, I see what I see.
- [10:21]
A
I think you just made a good point. Like, we have to also be willing to acknowledge, I see what I see. I'm experiencing what I'm experiencing. Because sometimes the red flag is not so mysterious. You know, one thing I wrote is this person could present themselves as a spiritual giant who is wise and mature, but they lack restraint. They don't treat people with kindness and patience. They tend to be selfish. They expect to be treated as special. They think they're superior to others, or they believe the rules apply to others, but not to them. Those actions are not very mysterious. Like, those are pretty, pretty clear. Pretty clear. Pretty obvious. The secret is you have to be honest about what you see and what you're experiencing. Not in a judgy way, not in a shaming way, not in a condemning way, but just in a way of like, I'm going to say exactly what this is that is incongruent with the picture that they paint.
- [11:13]
D
Let me just add to that, which is going to be common sense. But remember, common sense is not always common. Common practice, that's a big deal. I will see that and say, there's an incongruency here. And I talk about grief a lot. Why grief? Because inside. Ah, doggone it. If I really do this and say. Or to call out Joel or any person as a friend and say, hey, this isn't matching up here. I'm not okay with what you're saying. I've seen it like twice or three times here, right Then at that moment, I have to be aware, self awareness, and say, what might this cost me? Joel might say, well, fine with you. Then I'll just dial back and go and have another friendship over here. Not obsessively, but I want people to be mindful to say, if I have a boundary or I say, or I just call it out, speak it kindly. Ephesians 4:15, Speaking the truth in love. And say, I'm not okay with this, or this doesn't match up. That person may try to seduce me back in oh, no, no, and gaslight me. Or they may just dial it back and stonewall me and just peace out. And then I've lost a friendship. I've watched so many people go, but, Jimbo, if I do the boundaries or if I call out, say, hey, I'm not okay with this. I don't feel safe. I'll lose the relationship.
- [12:20]
C
Yeah.
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D
And that's their individual work to do.
- [12:22]
C
Yeah. And there's a consequence to the incongruence.
- [12:24]
D
Always.
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C
Right. So it's like you see the burger and you feel let down. And then you go, that feeling of being let down is going to lead you to an action. Either you accept it and you just keep living in the delusion or even though.
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D
Right, right.
- [12:38]
C
And so I do think that even with this, it's like when that person presents that and shows that to you, there's a real danger of acknowledging it, but then not doing anything as a result of it. And so what is that consequence, that feeling of being let down is an indication of the tension, that of what the expectation or what was presented to you as true, but now you're experiencing the falseness of what that is.
- [12:59]
A
And when you say not doing something, I think it's important to fully acknowledge, like, doing something doesn't mean that we're going to be able to get that person to change.
- [13:07]
C
Oh, absolutely.
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A
Doing something is more. How are we going to respond to it?
- [13:11]
C
Exactly.
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A
And what's the responsible thing? What's the godly thing? What's the reasonable thing? What do I have to give in this situation? What do I not have to give?
- [13:18]
D
And how I can. You already use the word how I can learn in that level. Watch. We all can do it takes a little work, practice. I want to learn how to respond, not react. Because reaction is redoing an action from my past. How many times we've said, if it's hysterical, it's historical. I ground myself with the breath, feel myself and go, I know what's happening right here. That's called self talk. You can do it and then say no. If you push back or whatever, I will actually respond to you from the adult place, even from the neo prefrontal cortex, not reaction. Like, I can be grounded. That person, if they're a manipulator, after they see two or three times, you stay grounded in truth. I find most of those people move on. You don't have to draw one boundary and they go, zippity do. All this is great. They'll test it. Their job is to push and say no. You don't know what you're talking about. You have some of that in your story. Some of the best conversations, not going there now, but happen, you know, in between shows here. And we're like, yeah, that's like someone says, no, that's not real. It's like, no, this is real.
- [14:22]
A
All right, red flag number two. I want to go to insincerity an insincere person will tell you something they think you want to hear, but they actually don't mean it. You get an uneasy feeling when they compliment you or half heartedly make plans with you. You often question whether they're sincere because after being with them, you tilt your head and you think to yourself, did they really mean that? Or did they just put on a show to make themselves appear nice, caring and interested? Here's a couple of examples. And of insincerity. They say something nice just to end an argument because they cannot handle confrontation. Or they're buttering you up in an effort to appease you because they're secretly hiding something. Another example is they say they really care about you, but call or text only when they need something from you.
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D
You ever found that one out?
- [15:15]
A
You know, the one that steps on my toes with this one is like. They say that they like. Yeah, yeah, let's get together for lunch. Okay, confession time. I'll do that. Because sometimes it just feels like the nice thing to do. Does that really make me an insincere person?
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D
Is integrity one of these red flags?
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A
If not, we'll get to that.
- [15:32]
D
Here's why. If that happens, I'm going off camera to get this. So don't be mad at me, people. But I tell people all the time, if you're there and someone says, let's do lunch. If phones don't come out immediately and you schedule it, that is male bovine manure. That's bullcrap. I mean, that's just not right. Right. It's just true. If phones. Yeah, this is. Call it. Come on. So in that moment and their voice watch everybody. Your voice will pitch up. Let's do lunch. Yeah, man. What up, dog? It's like our phone's coming out and saying, when can we do that? That's a very simple thing.
- [16:08]
A
See? See how we get therapy right here?
- [16:11]
D
Not so much on the words we.
- [16:13]
A
Should use and should not use, but that's really good, you know, so insincerity. I think there's different levels of insincerity. It's like, you know, there's the level of like, what I just gave the example of, like my desire is to get together with this person. The reality of my time may not allow for that, but I should go ahead and just be honest. My heart says yes. The reality of my time right now makes this a no. Please don't see this as an indication that I don't value you or value our friendship. In this season I just need to be honest about with where I'm at. Okay, so that's a sincere statement. Accomplishing the same thing. Insincere. Be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I sometimes I'll do this just because I don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. I wind up hurting them.
- [17:02]
C
Right, right.
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A
But then there's, there's the whole other level of like this other one that you feel utterly exhausted when you're with them because of all the mental gymnastics involved trying to discern their true intentions.
- [17:18]
D
That could be an energy vampire. We call it that just like I am drained. Be a fountain, not a drain in relationships. And it's like, ah, so what do you do about it?
- [17:28]
A
So oftentimes it's like, okay, I don't trust this person. But why is it? What's the root of that? And sometimes it really is insincerity.
- [17:36]
C
Yeah. I think insincerity is coming from us, from our perspective. Insincerity is directly connected to the question of our conscience. Right. So our conscience, what do we, what do we internally truly believe is true? And then insincerity is then doing an act or participating in an act or condoning an act. That is not true of that conscience. I love what Paul says in 2nd Corinthians 1:12. He says it this way. And he's talking to a church in Corinth and he's talking to, you know, this house church there. Indeed, this is our boast. You're like, oh, we're getting ready for something epic. Paul's talking about boasting. Indeed, this is our boast. Listen to this. The testimony, right? The truth of our lives, the testimony of our conscience is that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you, with godly sincerity and purity. Not by human wisdom, but by God's grace.
- [18:28]
A
So good. What's the scripture reference? One more time.
- [18:30]
C
Second Corinthians 1:12.
- [18:32]
A
Wonderful. Now let's take a quick break to share about our sponsor for this episode. Chosen. Chosen is a non profit that equips parents and caregivers with tools to help children in heal. As a parent to five children, and now Gigi to eight adorable grandchildren, I care so deeply about children's hearts, how they process or don't process, their emotions, their struggles and a path toward healing. If you're a parent, maybe you've wondered why your child pushes away when you desperately want them to lean in. This is connected to a topic called attachment, attachment styles that we've discussed here on Therapy and theology as you explore both your own attachment style and your child's. Our friends at Chosen are here to support you with compassionate trauma informed guidance. I'm excited to announce they're offering an exclusive interactive webinar to help parents and caregivers gain insight into why certain behaviors are so triggering. Learn the different types of types of attachment styles and discover how to build stronger connections with your child. No matter what your own upbringing, you'll walk away with practical tools that can make a real difference for you and your family. And here's the best part. Because you're a valued therapy and theology listener, you get access for just $10. So take advantage of this opportunity and head to Chosen that's chosen care backslash p.31 to register for the webinar that's chosen care p.31. Now back to the episode. Okay, let's go into the third one. Self centeredness. Self centeredness. This person only thinks about themselves. Or I'll say this person mainly thinks about themselves. This is if the world revolves around around them. They don't think about how their words and actions impact other people. They can be thoughtless and rude. But when you address them, they say things like, I'm just being honest. Or they accuse you of being too sensitive. They believe they are always right, they want what they want, and they think their needs take precedence over others. So an example of this is in conversation. They keep the discussion focused on themselves and. And what they're going through. They rarely, if ever, check up on you and what you are facing. So sometimes you're in a relationship and you're like, man, I really like this person. Like, I like hanging out with them. They're fun, but it just is starting to feel like it's all about them. And I am the giver and they are the taker. And I just don't trust that they really have my best interest in mind or that they even really care about what's going on inside of me.
- [21:35]
D
Can I throw one out? Okay. And I'm being very serious about this. And make versions of this, if you will. Just because you're over there, my buddy. If we're over there, we're having a conversation. This is one possible tool, but it's not a joke, Joel. If you are waxing eloquent, going on and on in a monologue and say, huh, Hang on a second. What's it like right now for you being in this conversation with me? Well, I'm dead serious. People think that's like, boom. No, sometimes that's an organic ninja like way to have a person. Well, I don't know. What do you think I said, well, let's just think a little bit more. Proverbs 35, 20, verse 5, the purposes in a person's heart or deep waters, and say, now what's it like right now not being in this relationship? What's it like being in this conversation? The more I would know Joel, and we do know each other. I could say, hey, bud. And you know, you could say this to me. You could say, are you aware that over the last five minutes you got to know him a little bit? Over the last five minutes I've not spoken a word because I love you so much. To help you get self aware, if I come in with a hammer and shaming you, nobody wants that. I'm not going to do that to a stranger. But there's a ninja thing. Jesus was this incredible ninja in conversations to be able to say, huh, tell me more or what's going on? He knew all but the woman there at the well. He knew everything. And finally, deep into the narrative, tell me about your husband. She kept wanting to talk theology. He, he was talking heart and thirst. So he was very disorganized. But I may say, what's it like right now? What's it like being in a conversation? I'm going to be honest, that's a disruption, an appropriate, healthy disruption to go, oh, and a person might stop and I've seen it and go, what's going on? Otherwise I sit there and while I tolerate, persist, and watch one more thing. Agape love. If you were just going on and on, I'm not loving you because you're unaware. Like this emperor's new clothes. And it's like, buddy, I don't want to see you shame yourself. And then one more person go, I don't want to be in a relationship with him. That makes sense. There's a sense I could be organically honest there.
- [23:41]
A
I think too, I'm sitting here realizing, you know, as we're talking about red flags, things we want to notice that may indicate an off situation in a relationship. We're also talking about these red flags as roots of distrust. If we feel like we, I can't trust this person. These will give us some handles to examine. Where are the roots of distrust coming from? But Jim, you make such a good point. These are also really good things for us to check ourselves in. It's biblical, you know, that we are to examine the log in our own eye before picking at the speck in Another's eye. And so just what you're saying, like, as we're having conversations with other people, we don't. We want to make sure to check ourselves. We don't want to be self centered.
- [24:23]
C
Yeah, absolutely. There's a way to read the Bible. There are two ways to read the Bible, and I refer to it big technical terms, anthropocentric. So human centered or theocentric, God centered. And I think one of the big tactics of the enemy is to really feed us an anthropocentric way of reading, which I refer to this as the unholy trinity of me, myself and I. And one of the great things that the Bible is consistently doing. Think about it. How many times in the Old Testament, particularly in the psalms, where the psalms are saying, and lift your eyes, lift your eyes, lift your eyes. Well, what is the purpose of lifting your eyes? The purpose of lifting your eyes is moving away from a self centered ethos and living into a God centered ethos and living. And when we're God centered, it's not a negligence or a denial of ourselves. It's a rightly ordered existence. So we see ourselves rightly in relationship with God and with other people. Self centered living honestly does blind you. And it actually, you think you're becoming more whole, but you're living isolated and so, so detrimental. Love.
- [25:30]
A
So good. All right, number four, immaturity. Immaturity. This person acts childish. They don't think through the consequences of their choices. When they get caught, it's always someone else's fault. When something hurts them or they don't get their way, they have temper tantrums or pouting episodes.
- [25:48]
D
How old do they sound? You know, I have that sign in my office that says, how old would you be if you didn't know how old you were? So even said you're literally developmentally going down to temporary transgender, that's about two. I have a granddaughter right there at that age and a grandson right about that age. It's interesting to watch them develop. So you're dealing with these things. Immaturity.
- [26:06]
C
They.
- [26:07]
D
Well, you're kind of immature often actually deeper than that. They're very, very young. And developmentally they may be stuck. Wonder what happened to them at age 2 or 3 or 5. Like, why are you going so young?
- [26:17]
A
I think you said to me one time we were talking about why people sometimes do act childish. I mean, we can all do it. Like, if you get upset enough, you know, it's like we're sitting here having a conversation and I'm not going to pay a fit. But all of a sudden, like we get into a heated argument and all of a sudden it's like I throw my papers across the room. The adult Lisa would not do that.
- [26:41]
D
Right.
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A
But you told me one time, it's like, okay, when something like that happens, go back and examine. Maybe that's where you had a pretty significant trauma event, whatever. Yeah. Or an event. And we will often return back to fast.
- [26:59]
D
Time collapses. It's fast. You're not trying to do it. It's like all of a sudden, whoa, there's a two year old in the room. You never, by the way, never shame somebody. How old are you? Don't do that. But it happens autonomically. And I'm five. And then a great question, even over a cup of coffee to a friend, it has to be in therapy, is to go, how old do you feel right now? And then is there anything that, do you remember anything that happened to you at age 7? Right. And sometimes I'd be surprised. A lot of people just over a cup of coffee could say, well, no one ever asked me that. I think I feel about 4. And here's what happened. What happened to me at age 4, Jim Kress was sexually abused by older boys. So I can go there. And at that moment what started in me was confusion of I thought this was the right thing to do. They coached me and said it was. And yet I feel what and who and how or kids discover porn or. And it's not all about that or something that was said to you as a child and you embody that at that age. And you begin to run these scripts. We've done whole podcasts on shame scripts and they begin to run and they're still across the bottom of the TV screen running right here. The headlines are just running. You don't see them unless you have to look down and go, oh, that's running. False identity.
- [28:07]
A
Right?
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C
Yeah. There's a whole, we could do a whole bonus episode on Parenting fails. But as you're talking about this, you know, I've got, my boys are now 12 bleems, almost 13. So 13, 12 and 10. And the question of the trauma, like, you know, one of the things that Brit, my wife noticed the other day was me and the boys, we started getting into it and I tell, I promise you in all honesty and humility, I reverted to Joel 12 year old self and I am the dad. I'm the one who's supposed to be parent and we're going toe for toe right And I could see myself dying. Like, what's the. I'm digressing into my 12 year old self and I am starting to say some mean things to my kids.
- [28:52]
D
What happened at 12? Just one thing. We're just chatting.
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C
I mean, you know, one of the things I write about in my book in the Hidden Beast, I talk about how I got made fun of for being, like, one of the only Indian kids in middle school on a basketball court. And they started calling me Hindu. And I'm like, I'm not Hindu. I'm Indian. I'm clear.
- [29:09]
D
You are, though.
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C
Yeah.
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D
I've never been a woman. Don't worry, this is safe. But I know as a dude.
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A
Thank you for clarifying that.
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D
This is important. This is a dude. Don't dis me.
- [29:18]
C
Yeah, we're wired.
- [29:19]
D
I've never. I don't know how women feel about that. I may have an idea, but the idea. So. And that happened with my sons and with one of them especially, began to just do what a kid does. He press buttons in me and dissed me. It was on me because I was kind of bullied, made fun of as a kid. But now I'm big. Yeah, I'm gonna take you out.
- [29:37]
C
Yeah.
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D
And so I went, whoa, dude, what's going on?
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C
And there's a weird thing in there, even Jim, where it was almost. And I was like, processing through this with Brit. There was almost like I was reenacting those moments. And you, at least you all talk about the curse of the comeback, where it's like, I'm almost like, man, if I was back in that situation, like, who I am today and what I know, I could have been on the winning end instead of being made fun of all the time. Like, you know, and I'm having this discussion, I'm going there, and I'm realizing, oh, my gosh, this immaturity is happening because of this trigger that happened in my childhood. And this is so antithetical to the gospel.
- [30:13]
D
You open to a thought.
- [30:14]
C
Yeah.
- [30:14]
D
Change the narrative the first line real quick. I know we got all these things. God have mercy on our souls. Here. Take the word almost out. It was almost like I reverted. Take almost out and say it again.
- [30:25]
C
I reverted.
- [30:26]
D
I reverted. I was 12. Yeah, it happens. If you don't believe that you've not watched major sports or rush hour traffic. Come on.
- [30:32]
C
Yeah.
- [30:33]
A
So if we're in a relationship with someone that is consistently demonstrating immature behavior, you can start to feel the rub in your trust. Because it's like, can I really trust this person, if they go to this event with me, that they're not going to lose their temper and embarrass me. Or can I trust my sensitive parts of my heart to someone you know? Or I even wrote this. Can I trust that this person won't be disrespectful of my time because they feel that their irresponsibility should suddenly become my emergency? And so those will erode trust in a relationship. And when we get to the root of where is this distrust coming from in these situations? It's immaturity. Okay, the next one's a really big one. Immorality. This is someone who lacks a moral compass and disregards the principles of right and wrong. They see no problem with engaging in sinful, illegal, mean, insulting or vile behavior. They may appear upstanding in some environments while actively participating in a secret double life. These issues seem to be not just causing rips in the trust in a relationship, but full on ruptures. A couple of examples here. They steal money from their parents home when they visit because they feel like they're entitled to what their parents own or what their parents have earned. They engage in extramarital affairs and addictive porn use, which is destructive to themselves. Their spouse and others are around them with no remorse or plans to stop. And that's really an important part of this. No remorse, no plans to stop. They can easily justify lying and cheating to get ahead in their profession. They see their behaviors as necessary to get what they desire and they feel the need to stay on top. So you know, and it's not like we want to compare sins and say this is a big sin, this is a small sin. But these are, when you talk about the context of a relationship and a disruption in the trust in a relationship, these are big.
- [32:44]
C
Yeah.
- [32:45]
D
And the bigness of that is I think we get to, I believe we get to right size things because even in the scripture I can think if you lust after a woman, you've committed adultery in your heart, don't have a bad exegesis there. Jesus didn't say so, therefore go out and cross the flesh. But what you're talking about is a progressive ramping up. And here's my salient point on this is Aristotle. We are what we repeatedly do. Their conscience could get seared with a hot iron. So as you brilliantly just stair step that up and after a while they won't even be fully aware you're aware that's immoral, this is unfaithful. But they won't be aware and that's what Scott scares me. It's like Paul got to the point he turned such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. And going, they're gone. They're almost past the point of no return. Scary.
- [33:35]
C
In the previous episode, I kind of gave the fundamental foundational, kind of theological principle for this. Quickly, I want to give that as well. At the bottom of this is a divergence of desires. There's a divergence of desires. Let me just read what Paul says in Galatians 5, 16. I say, then what? Walk by the spirit and you will certain, certainly not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the spirit, and the spirit desires what is against the flesh. These are opposed to each other so that you don't do what you want. And he goes on to a vice list, sexual morality, moral impurity. Right. And it's a list that is not exhaustive because at the very end he goes in anything like this, I wrote this down. I think this may be helpful. What you and I look to matters, because what we long after, we will try to take hold of. But in reality, these things are actually taking hold of us. And so good. So this question of desires are so important, and so you start to see these red flags come up and you see a divergence of relationships. Well, what that might be actually evidence of is a divergence of desires. And we have to be very careful because here we are thinking that. That we're going to take hold of these things and these things are going to be used by us for our good. But like sexual immorality, like addictions of all different kinds, we think we're leveraging these things for our good, when in reality, these things are taking hold of us for our destruction.
- [35:00]
D
And if we're unaware of it in the moment, AA Alcoholics Anonymous has a wonderful statement. The man takes the drink, then the drink takes the man. And that's sobering, man.
- [35:10]
A
All right, last one is incompetence. This person says they're capable of doing something you already know. They don't have the training, experience, or track record to carry out. They won't acknowledge their inability until it becomes a problem too big to deny. They try to compensate for their lack of ability by convincing conversations about their progress. But behind the scenes, things are not happening like they should be. Okay. In a funny sense, it's like, no, no, no, I can fix this. I don't need to call a plumber. And then the house gets flooded. Right.
- [35:45]
D
Those are real stories, though.
- [35:46]
A
Right.
- [35:47]
D
From real people who I'm like, newsflash, that cost you a lot more in the end than the plumber.
- [35:51]
A
Exactly. Or they volunteer to teach a seminar on a topic they're not well versed in, or that they don't live out in their own life. You know, into today's Internet world. It's so easy. I'll just google some facts.
- [36:03]
D
Well, chatgpt it.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah.
- [36:05]
D
Now you sitting there and you sound like this expert and you're just reading off an iPad.
- [36:09]
A
And just because you can acquire the knowledge doesn't mean you have the experience to truly be competent in carrying this out. And you can see how this would definitely create a rub in the trust in a relationship. And oftentimes they promise to take care of an issue, but then when they take care of it, if they remember to take care of it, they do it in a way that kind of half heartedly checks it off the list, but it's not the real solve. And so you're gonna have to go behind them and do it yourself. I see several people on the camera crew right now giggling because they're under conviction. They know they all do it, not just them. We all do it. We all do it sometimes. Okay, so we have covered a lot today. Red flags. Here's what I mainly want you to hear. It's not that we suddenly want to go out hunting for all that's wrong in our relationships, but when you hit this spot where you're saying, I'm starting to feel like I can't trust this person or in a new relationship, I'm not sure if I can trust this person. Hopefully these red flags will give you handles to have healthy, productive conversations to better understand what are the warning signals in a new relationship that maybe we need to reassess how close we get to this person or in an established relationship. Where are the roots of distrust coming from? I hope you have enjoyed today not just all the information, but all of the personal confession that once again happened. More to come on Therapy and Theology.
- [37:38]
B
Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to download your free resource titled Is this normal? 15 red flags you may be missing in your relationships. We've linked it for you in the show notes below. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 ministries where we help you know the truth and live the truth because it changes everything. That's it for today's episode. But before you go, I want to tell you about a powerful way you can help Proverbs 31 ministries bridge the gap for even more listeners who need access to to trusted therapy and biblically sound theology. Since launching this podcast, we've impacted hundreds of thousands of listeners. Here's what one of them said in a recent review. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You really are changing lives. The Therapy and Theology Podcast is one of the many free resources we offer because listeners like you make it possible. So today I want to invite you to be a part of our listeners stories. To be a part of the life change that happens every single day because of those who say yes when they're asked to give. Because when you give, you help another soul know and live the truth that truly changes everything. You can give a donation today at proverbs31.org donate.