Therapy Chat | Episode 472

Title: Safety In An Unsafe World Via Polyvagal Theory
Host: Laura Reagan, LCSW-C
Guest: Dr. Stephen Porges
Date: March 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful conversation, Laura Reagan welcomes Dr. Stephen Porges, originator of the Polyvagal Theory, to explore how our nervous systems respond in times of threat and safety—and how understanding these patterns can help us find regulation and connection in an increasingly stressful world. Dr. Porges shares his research journey, explains the underlying mechanisms of the Polyvagal Theory, and discusses practical implications for trauma, therapy, self-regulation, and social healing. The episode touches on the impact of trauma (personal and collective), the importance of co-regulation, and strategies for cultivating a sense of safety—even when the world feels unsafe.

Introduction to Dr. Stephen Porges & Polyvagal Theory

[05:13–13:20]

• Dr. Porges’ background: Career highlights in psychophysiology, including groundbreaking research in heart rate variability and vagal tone.
• Early discoveries:
  • How measuring heart rate variability led to the investigation of the vagus nerve’s role in stress and resilience.
  • Observations in preterm babies: Greater heart rate variability signaled resilience and thriving, while a lack could be problematic.
  • Realization that the vagus nerve has two distinct pathways from different brain regions, leading to new insights about sociality and physiological regulation.
• The birth of Polyvagal Theory:
  • Polyvagal Theory maps an evolutionary progression of the autonomic nervous system that enables mammals to socially engage—“we literally are wearing our heart on our face and broadcasting it in our voice.” — Dr. Porges [12:00]
  • The theory offers a physiological basis for understanding trauma responses and social behavior.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Social Engagement System and Human Connection

[13:36–20:18]

• The evolutionary leap: The migration of vagal pathways enabled social communication—a foundation for connection, co-regulation, and survival.
• Babies and co-regulation: Social nourishment (interaction with a parent) activates rewards in the same neural system as feeding—underscoring the biological craving for social contact.
• Trauma’s legacy: Early trauma can disrupt a person’s capacity to feel safe with others, even if the desire for connection remains.
  • “They’ve told me what they’ve lost, but they have also told me they never lost the vision, the dream, the narrative of being safe with another.” — Dr. Porges [19:55]

Safety, Perception, and the Body’s Wisdom

[17:50–23:44]

• Beyond perception: Polyvagal Theory shifts focus away from cognitive “perception of safety” to the body’s “neuroception,” where the nervous system automatically detects cues of safety or threat.
  • “From a polyvagal perspective, we throw the perception out. The body doesn’t follow the rules of perception.” — Dr. Porges [18:14]
• When regulation is impossible: Sometimes, despite intentions, the body’s signals override willpower or logic, especially for those with trauma histories.
• Therapeutic goals: Central to healing is calming the physiological state and providing cues of safety (e.g., through a prosodic, soothing voice).

The Safe and Sound Protocol & Trauma Therapy Applications

[23:44–26:55]

• Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP): An acoustic intervention based on Polyvagal Theory that uses vocal cues to trigger feelings of safety and social engagement.
• SSP’s evolution: Initially developed for autistic children but found to also provoke significant responses in trauma survivors, necessitating adaptation and sensitivity in clinical use.
  • “You’re using what may appear to be a very neutral stimulus to trigger this reaction. We can work with that.” — Dr. Porges [24:56]
• Real-world case: Work with Ukrainian refugees demonstrated that the nervous system's defenses persist in people from war zones—“the woman lasted 42 seconds before she pulled the headset off.” [25:20]

Therapist Burnout, Co-regulation, and Community

[28:07–33:43]

• Therapist trauma history: Many trauma therapists carry their own trauma histories, which gives them relevance and empathy but also vulnerability.
• Co-regulation as resilience: The act of being present, witnessing, and co-regulating can help both therapist and client—community and connection buffer dysregulation.

Environmental and Social Stressors

[34:09–42:53]

• Physical environments: Overcrowded, warm, or hierarchical academic spaces can provoke physiological dysregulation, especially in people with trauma.
  • “What is a university setting? It’s a setting of evaluation.” — Dr. Porges [34:09]
• Marginalization: Experiences of “otherness” or lack of diversity in environments like Oxford can make bodies feel unsafe.
• Sensory aspects of trauma: Both external (e.g., heat) and internal (interoception) cues play a role in nervous system reactivity.

Essential Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Human Nature and Safety

[42:53–47:26]

• “When we feel safe, we are capable of generosity, empathy, altruism, growth and compassion. When we don’t, or perhaps never feel safe, our sense of self preservation trumps all else. And selfish, desperate and aggressive behaviors are all but inevitable…” — Dr. Porges (quoting from his book) [42:53]
• Default state:
  • “Polyvagal theory says our default state is benevolence, loving connection… It’s only when we are bombarded with cues of threat that we lose that capability.” — Dr. Porges [43:53]

Social Healing, Hope, and Activism

[47:51–50:51]

• In the face of despair about world events, Dr. Porges sees hope in the expanding communities of care:
  • “When you get 800 people together in a room like at Oxford, who are there because they want to make the world better… you know that the world is expanding.” — Dr. Porges [48:47]
• Medicine and trauma: Powerful story about a physician’s breakdown after uncovering patients’ trauma histories—highlighting the importance of preparation and self-awareness for helpers.

Trauma, Health, and the Autonomic Nervous System

[51:30–56:40]

• COVID, trauma, and regulation: Data showed that those with higher adversity were much more likely to contract COVID during the early pandemic, due to the impact of trauma on the autonomic nervous system.
  • “If they had a high adversity history, the probability [of getting COVID] was over 75%.” — Dr. Porges [54:46]

Deepening Understanding: Practical and Theoretical Takeaways

Understanding the Nervous System’s Adaptive Strategies

[59:17–63:53]

• Sympathetic vs. parasympathetic: The two branches aren’t simply “bad” (fight/flight) vs. “good” (rest/digest). The ventral vagal branch (unique to mammals) orchestrates a “safe” state, enabling play, intimacy, and connection.
• Collapse and dissociation as adaptation: What looks like weakness (shutdown, freeze, dissociation) can actually be creative survival responses.
  • “When you start seeing it within the polyvagal context, you almost have a smile on your face, say, what an amazing nervous system to figure this thing out.” — Dr. Porges [62:20]

Appeasement vs. Fawning

[63:53–66:30]

• Appeasement: Certain individuals in life-threatening situations can simultaneously engage social cues and defense mechanisms to survive—“a remarkable, literally… super skill…it’s not something that’s learned.”
• Fawning: Contrast to appeasement—collapse without engagement, leading to increased vulnerability.

Concluding Thoughts & Actionable Wisdom

[67:35–69:00]

• Therapy as honoring the heroic journey: All trauma responses are adaptive; the therapeutic role is to help clients understand and respect these survival strategies.
• Moving the world toward safety:
  • “The more we can get into ventral vagal, the better our world is going to be.” — Laura Reagan [67:52]
  • “Don’t be scared. Find a few trusted individuals in which your body feels safe enough to go into ventral sleep.” — Dr. Porges [68:06]

Resource Links

• Polyvagal Institute: polyvagalinstitute.org
• Dr. Stephen Porges’ Website: stephenporges.com

Notable Timestamps

• Dr. Porges’ Research Journey: [05:13–13:20]
• Social Engagement System Explained: [12:00–20:18]
• SSP and Occupational Therapy: [23:44–26:55]
• Therapist Burnout and Co-regulation: [28:07–33:43]
• Sensory Stress and Polyvagal Theory: [34:09–42:53]
• On Human Nature and Hope: [42:53–50:51]
• Trauma, Health & COVID: [51:30–56:40]
• Sympathetic/Parasympathetic Deep Dive: [59:17–63:53]
• Appeasement & Survival Strategies: [63:53–66:30]
• Closing Reflections: [67:35–69:00]

This episode is a comprehensive, accessible tour of Polyvagal Theory and its real-world, life-changing applications for therapists, trauma survivors, and anyone yearning for safety in an unsafe world. Dr. Porges’ warmth and clarity, along with Laura’s thoughtful questions, ground the science in everyday experience—inviting listeners to honor their bodies, seek safety in connection, and nurture hope for social healing.