Therapy Chat Podcast – Episode 473

The Neuroscience Of Us Vs. Them Thinking with Sarah Peyton

Hosted by Laura Reagan, LCSW-C
Date: March 10, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful conversation, psychotherapist Laura Reagan sits down with neuroscience researcher and author Sarah Peyton to explore the roots of "us vs. them" thinking. The episode delves deep into the neurobiology of divisiveness, the human need for belonging, and how early relational experiences wire our brains for inclusion or exclusion. They discuss how trauma, attachment, and unconscious internal “agreements” shape our perceptions, emotions, and responses to others, illuminating pathways toward self-compassion and inclusive connection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding the Default Mode Network & Internal Experience

[04:55–07:43]

• Sarah shares her personal journey of investigating why the brain can feel uncomfortable and how trauma impacts the default mode network (DMN), the brain’s "internal tailor":

  • "My default network, as your listeners probably know, is the part of the brain that carries the automatic voice. And...the more trauma we've had, the more the needle of the tailor literally runs through the trauma center of the brain, runs through the amygdala." (Sarah Peyton, [05:35])

• She describes coping strategies (e.g., reading, addictions) to "turn off" the DMN and avoid the pain of self-criticism or shame.

2. The Amygdala & The Necessity of Self-Compassion

[08:27–09:14]

• The amygdala is "always looking for signs that things are not good" (Sarah Peyton, [08:27]). Sarah emphasizes:
  • “It needs a lot of warmth and kind of really good mothering. It's what our amygdalas need.” (Sarah Peyton, [08:35])

3. Attachment, Internalized Mothering & Healing

[09:57–12:20]

• Sarah recounts learning from epigeneticist Moshe Szyf that a mother's influence is "in every cell of our prefrontal cortex" and reflects on healing the "internal mother":
  • “We get to heal our own internal mothers...the mothers that should have been, had they been totally supported and loved themselves and kept safe from trauma.” (Sarah Peyton, [11:36])
• Laura notes: “That's what it comes down to, call it what we want, but that's what's really happening.” ([12:20])

4. The Neuroscience of Us vs. Them Thinking

[13:35–20:41]

• Sarah explains how humans are biologically wired for belonging, and how “blame” and “disgust” are easily weaponized to create in-group/out-group dynamics:
  • “One of the things that stops us from expanding the circle of love is...the human brain loves to blame.” (Sarah Peyton, [14:30])
  • She highlights the use of "disgust" by political leaders, which triggers exclusionary responses and oxytocin-fueled in-group bonding.
  • “When we are part of the in group, we get to feel…this oxytocin reward when we look at the people in the out group.” ([16:50])
  • The negative consequence: the more we bond within our group, the less empathy we have for others.

5. Empathy Loss, Dehumanization & Social Neurobiology

[20:55–23:08]

• “The more strongly we have the oxytocin rush of belonging, the less brain resource we have available... to have empathy and compassion for other groups.” (Sarah Peyton, [19:20])
• Sarah references research showing that people may not even recognize out-group members as human:
  • “Their brain moves them into the category of rubbish instead of in the category of humanness.” (Sarah Peyton, [22:17])

6. Agreements with Ourselves & Barriers to Self-Compassion

[25:42–28:21]

• Some people struggle to achieve self-compassion due to “internal agreements” made early in life that bar belonging or worthiness:
  • “If we have an agreement with ourselves not to believe that we belong absolutely...we are walking around with an internal sense of insecurity.” (Sarah Peyton, [26:18])
• This vulnerability can make us more susceptible to exclusionary group dynamics, seeking belonging where it is offered—even if it means excluding others.

7. Origins of Internal Agreements: Early Attachment & Emotional Expression

[30:11–36:01]

• Sarah references Beatrice Beebe’s research: by 4 months old, babies adapt their facial expressions to match their mothers' emotional availability.
  • “If our mother doesn't do sadness, then our face stops doing sadness unless great grief forces its way through.” (Sarah Peyton, [31:04])
  • Early attachment wounds translate into lifelong internal rules (e.g., "I'm too much", "I shouldn't be joyful").

8. The Neuroscience of Safety, Mattering, and Belonging

[36:04–40:50]

• The importance of the questions "Am I safe? Do I matter?" for the nervous system to enter a social engagement system (Polyvagal Theory).
  • "When we get a yes answer...the nervous system shifts gear into social engagement." (Sarah Peyton, [36:13])
• Belonging to a group can physiologically reward and regulate us, even if it means internalizing harmful exclusionary contracts.

9. Breaking Old Contracts: Restoring Suppressed Emotional Circuits

[41:25–46:17]

• Discusses how internal “contracts” suppress emotions (e.g., anger, disgust), leading to difficulty setting boundaries.
  • “If we've got a frozen disgust circuit...we can't find our own no.” (Sarah Peyton, [42:15])
• Therapy invites clients to welcome back suppressed emotions and renegotiate these unconscious contracts.

10. Practical Approaches: Working with Internal Agreements

[46:17–49:44]

• Sarah describes a structured process for identifying and releasing internal contracts—by articulating the vow (e.g., "I will not feel what I feel in order to be safe, no matter the cost to myself"), acknowledging the cost, and offering a new, compassionate blessing:
  • “I revoke this vow. Instead, I give you my blessing to feel all my feelings and to enjoy belonging with people who also care about dreams.” (Sarah Peyton, [49:32])

11. Self-Work, Therapy, and Intergenerational Healing

[50:14–52:26]

• The "Resonant Self Workbook" can be used alone or with therapists.
• Working on self-compassion and emotional availability not only benefits individuals but also transforms future generations and wider social circles:
  • “It changes our children's lives. And really, as therapists, it changes the lives of everyone that you are holding.” (Sarah Peyton, [52:12])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power of disgust and belonging:

  “When we are part of the in group, we get to feel…this oxytocin reward when we look at the people in the out group.”
  — Sarah Peyton ([16:50])

• On exclusion and empathy:

  “The more strongly we have the oxytocin rush of belonging, the less brain resource we have available... to have empathy and compassion for other groups.”
  — Sarah Peyton ([19:20])

• On internalized mothering:

  “Our mother is in every cell of our prefrontal cortex.”
  — Moshe Szyf, relayed by Sarah Peyton ([09:57])

  “We get to heal our own internal mothers...that should have been, had they been totally supported and loved themselves and kept safe from trauma.”
  — Sarah Peyton ([11:36])

• On internal agreements:

  “If we have an agreement with ourselves not to believe that we belong absolutely...we are walking around with an internal sense of insecurity.”
  — Sarah Peyton ([26:18])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:55–07:43: Default Mode Network and personal experience of internal discomfort
• 09:57–12:20: Mothering, internalized relationships, and healing
• 13:35–20:41: The neuroscience behind blame, disgust, and social division
• 22:17: Dehumanization and the loss of empathy in out-group perceptions
• 26:18–28:21: Internal agreements and their impact on belonging and vulnerability
• 31:04–36:01: Beatrice Beebe’s research on early emotion adaptation in infants
• 36:13–40:50: Polyvagal theory—social engagement and physiological belonging
• 42:15: The "frozen disgust circuit" and struggle to set boundaries
• 46:17–49:44: Sarah’s practical process for renegotiating self-contracts
• 50:14–52:26: Intergenerational benefits of healing and the broad impact of resonance

Additional Resources & Where to Find Sarah Peyton

• The Resonant Self Workbook is available for preorder at major online booksellers and will be released May 25, 2025.
• Visit https://sarahpeyton.com for resources, webinars, and live group opportunities. Topics range from the neuroscience of self-compassion to emotional healing and attachment.
• The original book, Your Resonant Self, is also available.

Tone and Takeaways

Both Laura and Sarah approach the topic with warmth, humility, and a deep compassion for human struggle. Their discussion integrates neuroscience, attachment theory, trauma healing, and practical tools for both therapists and laypeople. The conversation provides clarity on how divisiveness arises within the brain, fuels social separation, and—most importantly—offers hope for connection and change through self-understanding and compassionate practice.

For more on self-compassion, trauma, and holistic therapy, listen to prior episodes of Therapy Chat or visit therapychatpodcast.com.