498: The Impact of Religious Trauma with SC Nealy

Summary

Therapy Chat Podcast Episode 498: The Impact of Religious Trauma with SC Nealy

Host: Laura Reagan, LCSW-C
Guest: SC (Essie) Nealy, Clinical Director, LGBT Counseling Collaborative
Date: September 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Laura Reagan sits down with SC Nealy, an LGBTQ+ therapist and upcoming author, to delve deep into the complex subject of religious trauma. The conversation unpacks how high-control, high-demand religious environments can profoundly affect identity formation, autonomy, and psychological wellbeing — particularly for LGBTQ+ individuals, but also more broadly. Essie shares her personal journey, clinical insights, and practical considerations for healing, individuation, and reclaiming spirituality after trauma.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Defining Religious Trauma

What it is—and What it Isn't

• Religious trauma is not anti-religion: “Talking about religious trauma is being anti traumatic religion, not necessarily anti religion.” (SC Nealy, 06:56)
• High-demand, high-control dynamics: Groups that require obedience, loyalty, discourage questioning, and perpetuate othering or superiority are markers of potentially traumatic environments. (08:00)
• Subjectivity: Trauma can affect people differently; two people may have very different responses to the same environment. (06:45)

2. Recognizing Signs and Symptoms

• Complex PTSD overlap: “I often look at religious trauma through a complex PTSD lens... overwhelming or disruptive and has lasting adverse effects.” (09:40)
• Subtle impacts: It may not be obvious on the surface—a sense of unease, lost autonomy, or psychological distress may point to religious trauma even if overt abuse wasn't recognized at the time. (09:40, 10:15)

3. Development of Self in Traumatic Religious Environments

• Suppression of individuality: “There is a lot of othering… the concept of denying your individuality, your autonomy, your identity at all to take on the identity of the larger group...who you are does not matter.” (10:35)
• Hierarchy and obedience: “God comes first, others come second, you come last, always.” (12:36)
• Patriarchal/heteronormative systems: These frameworks explicitly diminish autonomy for those not at the top, with practical oppression often disguised as ‘service.’ (13:43, 14:23)

4. Power, Control, and Abuse

• Parallels with systems thinking: The power structures in these environments echo those in wider sociopolitical contexts and even within families or organizations. (15:32)
• Essie’s personal story: Grew up in a cult in Virginia—a seemingly ‘normal’ setting but extremely restrictive, isolative, and secretive. “We didn’t even know what was happening was not okay.” (16:00–17:56)
• Mechanisms of control: Often not experienced as ‘keeping secrets,’ but as protecting the group and oneself from evil. (19:10–20:27)

5. Identity, Shame, and Internal Conflict

• Early messages of shame: “The first time I was told that I was a lesbian, I was six. And it was in the cult...” (26:47)
• Conflicting religious messages: Being told both “God doesn’t make mistakes” and “who you are is evil” creates deep identity confusion and shame for LGBTQ+ youth. (24:41–26:44)

6. The Process and Pain of Individuation

• Blocked normal development: Individuation—“who am I, separate from my family or setting?”—is discouraged or pathologized in these systems. (30:26)
• Delayed adolescence: Those leaving high-control groups often experience a late, intense process of self-discovery that may appear “immature” or tumultuous to outsiders. (33:44–35:12)

7. Consequences: Family Estrangement & Societal Impact

• Estrangement and shunning: Leaving or being open about identity often results in loss of family/community. “When I did eventually come out… that was, you know, the end. Like, they’re no longer, you know, I'm no longer welcome around.” (36:11)
• Homeless LGBTQ+ youth: Many face homelessness due to family rejection; resources are often contingent on participation in religious programs with conditional acceptance. (41:00)

8. The Complexity and Parallels in Oppressive Structures

• Wider social parallels: The hierarchical oppression and enforced conformity found in certain religious groups mirror systems in society, governance, and other institutions. (23:01, 24:12)

9. Moving Toward Healing & Reclaiming Spirituality

• Not anti-religion, but pro-healing: Emphasizes being against traumatic religion, not spirituality. Recovery means disentangling whose beliefs you carry: “Whose message is it in your head?” (43:05)
• Essie’s advice: Therapy with the right clinician, safe exploration, and learning the difference between discomfort (growth) and actual danger. “Really learn how to listen to your gut… between what’s uncomfortable versus what’s unsafe.” (43:05–44:20)
• Celebratory acceptance: More than just ‘affirmation’; genuine celebration of LGBTQ+ and diverse identities is vital, in therapy and community. (49:12)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On religious trauma vs. anti-religion:
  “Talking about religious trauma is being anti traumatic religion, not necessarily anti religion.” (SC Nealy, 06:56)

• On identity suppression:
  “The more you focus on yourself, the further you get away from God. And those messages really make people put that individuation journey… to the side.” (SC Nealy, 11:00)

• Power structures and service:
  “It’s being taught through the lens of service… Whereas it actually, in practice… can instead look like oppression from the level down.” (SC Nealy, 14:23)

• Impact of secrecy and fear:
  “You weren’t taught through the lens of, oh, something is bad, we need to keep it to ourselves. You're taught… everyone else is bad. We need to protect ourselves from them.” (SC Nealy, 19:10)

• Parallels with social and political systems:
  “All the ways that we keep trying to do this as a dominant Culture, but people still keep rising because humanity is irrepressible.” (Laura Reagan, 23:01)

• Estrangement and self-fulfillment:
  “I had to give up a lot... But without a doubt, looking back, it’s absolutely worth it... I feel so lucky and happy and fulfilled. But it was not without loss.” (SC Nealy, 37:23)

• On individuation:
  “It’s the concept of who am I separate to my family… not only not encouraged… but you’re actively told that it’s wrong, that it’s sinful, that it is leading you away from Christ.” (SC Nealy, 30:26)

• On community acceptance:
  “It is not enough to be queer affirming… we need to be queer celebratory.” (SC Nealy, 49:12)

• Favorite quote:
  “It took me so much violence to become this gentle.” (SC Nealy, 38:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction, guest’s background: 03:05–04:30
• Defining religious trauma: 06:43–08:53
• Identifying religious trauma symptoms: 09:20–10:15
• Development of self under religious trauma: 10:34–12:36
• Power hierarchy and practical oppression: 13:20–14:51
• Personal journey (Essie’s cult background): 16:00–17:56
• Secrecy, fear, control mechanisms: 19:10–22:00
• Conflict between messages (LGBTQ+ identity): 24:41–26:44
• Coming out and family estrangement: 27:15, 36:11
• Individuation explained: 30:26–32:17
• Homeless LGBTQ+ youth/discriminatory resources: 40:49–42:28
• Therapy and safe spirituality: 43:05–44:20
• The call for celebratory affirmation: 49:12

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Closing Thoughts

This rich discussion not only illuminates the intricacies of religious trauma—its causes, consequences, and unique impact on self-development—but also offers hope, strategies for healing, and a call to both therapists and communities to do better. SC Nealy’s openness about her own story, coupled with deep clinical wisdom, gives voice to countless individuals navigating similar paths out of oppression and into self-acceptance.

Find SC Nealy:

• lgbtcounselingdmv.com
• Instagram: @scneely
• Upcoming book: Healing Sacred Wounds (Spring 2026, Bloomsbury Publishing)

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This summary was crafted to focus solely on the key content of the episode, omitting advertisements and non-content segments, and preserving the tone and intent of the original conversation.

Transcript

[A]

Therapynotes is the highest rated EHR practice management and billing software for mental health professionals. Its all in one platform is designed to streamline all aspects of your practice from connecting with clients via secure messages to scheduling, notes, billing and more. You can trust TherapyNotes has you covered and one of the best parts 24. 7 customer service with a live person, it's beyond easy to get help over the phone or by email at any time of day from their knowledgeable and friendly representatives. The best time to give TherapyNotes a try is now. Sign up for your free trial by going to therapynotes.com, clicking Start My Free Trial and accessing your first two months free with the promo code CHAT. See why TherapyNotes is the most trusted EHR for behavioral health professionals today. Therapy chat podcast episode 498 this is.

[B]

The therapy chat podcast with Laura Reagan, LCSWC. The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from.

[A]

A licensed mental health professional. And now here's your host, Laura Reagan, lcswc. Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. I'm your host Laura Reagan and this week my guest is a leader in the D.C. area in counseling who is speaking about religious trauma. Today my guest is Essie Neely. We had an amazing conversation and it was fascinating the parallels between how religious trauma, as Essie explained, explained it, develops and how our cultures dialogue about what's okay and what's not parallel each other. I was struck by it was impossible to ignore that. So this is a very thought provoking article. And whether you are someone who's experienced religious trauma, whether you are someone who's trying to understand religious trauma, or a therapist who may have clients on your caseload who have experienced religious trauma. And it's one of those things that's kind of insidious and I think that more of our clients and ourselves may have experienced it than we realize at face value. So this conversation, whichever of those groups you fall into, may be very eye opening for you like it was for me. So let's dive right into my conversation with SC Neely. Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. I'm your host, Laura Reagan, and today I'm so happy to be here with Essie Neely. Essie, thank you so much for coming back to Therapy Chat today.

[B]

Thank you for having me again.

[A]

You're welcome. And everyone's what? I don't remember Essie Neely being on Therapy Chat. That's because we had a glitch in the recording and we had to scrap it and couldn't use it. So we're starting over. And I'm really grateful to you for sharing your time with me that day and for coming back again, because we've got an important topic to talk about, something that a lot of people deal with and don't always recognize in themselves, which is religious trauma. So before we get into talking about it, though, let's start off by you just letting everybody know a little bit more about who you are and what you do. Please.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. So I'm SC Neeley. THEY SHE PRONOUNS And I am the clinical director and owner of LGBT Counseling Collaborative in the DMV area. My practice that I own is all trans and gay identifying therapists, and we work on bringing both lived experience with clinical experience to the therapy space for clients who identify somewhere on the LGBT spectrum or their family members or allies. I also specialize a lot in religious trauma work, both within the queer community and without. And I have a book coming out on religious trauma next year, spring 2026, with Bloomsbury Publishing. And so I'm just really excited to be talking more about that topic with people this year.

[A]

Wonderful. Congratulations on your upcoming book. I'm really excited for you.

[B]

Thank you. I'm really excited, too. This actually took me three years of pitching it to publishers and a lot of rejections. Where publishers were telling me religious trauma isn't a thing, I was like, yes, it is. Finally, Bloomsbury, they took me up on it and they purchased it. And it's called Right now the working title is Healing Sacred Wounds, and it'll be out next year.

[A]

So that title is really nice. I hope they keep that or something close.

[B]

Yeah, we're still in the editing process, so I have no idea what it'll look like when it's done.

[A]

Kudos to you for writing a book. You said three years of pitching. Does that include the writing process or how long did it take you to write?

[B]

It took me about a year to write. I was pitching it before it was done, and then I finished, finally finished the last bits of it April 30th of this year. So about five minutes before the deadline. And I emailed it. I like to wait right till the end.

[A]

Me, too. My deadline is the. When it's due. Not like you're supposed to turn it in early. I don't. I don't know how to work that way.

[B]

Yeah, no, I waited till. Right up until the last minute.

[A]

Well, writing a book is a huge thing, and, you know, your passion for what you do comes through in everything you do. I see you out in the community like Everywhere in our D.C. area, you know, you're in a big way so that people can find you and that's so beneficial. So I'm glad to help you amplify the part of your passion that is about religious trauma so that more people can find that care and help as well.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate it. It means a lot to me.

[A]

Yeah. What we said we were going to talk about today is kind of a specific aspect of religious trauma regarding how people's identities of self develop within that background. So before we get into that topic though, can we start with. Here's my little way of saying things all the time. Before we do that, can we start with you just kind of identifying how someone would know if they had experienced religious trauma or been part of a. A group that could have been traumatic?

[B]

Sure. Well, it certainly is difficult. There isn't like a very clear like this happened and now you have religious trauma. Right. Two people can go through the same thing and it can be traumatic for one and not for the other. Right. Which we know in all kinds of other settings too. So that absolutely applies to religion as. And I also preface before talking about religious trauma that that isn't the same thing at all about being anti religious or anti spirituality. Talking about religious trauma is being anti traumatic religion, not necessarily anti religion. I work with people all the time who are working on unpacking religious trauma, but they are still within a religion and want to stay in a religion or spirituality or they have their own beliefs. In no way does it mean you have to choose one or the other. You don't have to be atheist in order to unpack religious trauma or anything like that. Those journeys are very separate. I often tell people though, like in order to figure out what you believe religiously, spiritually, whatever, you often have to unpack the trauma piece because the trauma piece is caused by humans. It's caused by people who have either oppressed people or hurt people within the name of religion and specifically the most common places that those can happen. Religious trauma can happen or spiritual trauma can happen is in like high demand, high control religious settings or religions. And again, this can happen within any religion. It doesn't necessarily mean it's all religion, but it can happen within any of them. And it's basically the definition of that revolves around like any sort of faith community that requires like obedience, doesn't allow questioning or discourages questionings, whether it's of their rules or systems or leadership, expects loyalty. Without that questioning discourages relationships outside of that group or outside of people who hold that shared identity and also continues to perpetuate a notion of like, superiority in some way or othering in some way. Those are generally kind of some of the hallmark characteristics of a high demand, high control religion. And sometimes that can get really extreme and severe. And sometimes it can be a little less. It can be a little more difficult to tease out where it is. But those tend to be the biggest hallmarks.

[A]

Okay, so in any religion, say, a certain pastor could kind of create the environment that is traumatic, even if the faith group doesn't typically practice that way.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

Just like a family, I guess, just.

[B]

Just like within a family, within a workplace, within any setting, really. Yeah. It's often like that power hierarchical structure that is the issue.

[A]

Yeah. And so what would be the types of feelings that someone would have if they've experienced religious trauma or, you know, because I feel like it's really subtle and it's not just people who belong to this religion or people who go to that place to worship. How would someone know?

[B]

Sure. There. I often look at religious trauma through a complex PTSD lens. I find that there's a lot of overlap there. But in general, religious trauma, you know, can look like anything that is, you know, overwhelming or disruptive and has lasting adverse effects on somebody, whether it's physical, mental, social, emotional or spiritual wellbeing. So any sort of like adverse experience, relationship setting, event that causes that lasting harm in some functioning in that person's life, that usually is what would look like religious trauma.

[A]

This is bringing something up for me. I'm wondering, you know, if you don't want to go this direction. We don't have to, but how does the development of self within the traumatic religious environment play out? I mean, that is. I know we wanted to talk about that. There was something else that came up. I'll sprinkle it in if it fits.

[B]

Sure. Well, like I said, in a high demand, high control religion, there is a lot of othering. Right. There is a lot of sectioning off that group or community from outside community. And what that can look like is the concept of denying your individuality, your. Your autonomy, your identity at all. To take on the identity of the larger group or the mission or the cause or the religion. So, you know, a lot of clients with like evangelical backgrounds have heard the concept of, you know, deny oneself. Right. Deny yourself and take up his cross and follow me. Right. And those concepts of like, who you are does not matter. Right. The bigger picture matters. The person, the person, higher power, the figure, head, whatever of the religion is what matters. And that's where your focus is, right? It's not about what you do on earth, it's about what you're doing in heaven after. Right? And all of those concepts, while can have positive benefits for some people in some ways also can tell people like that who you are as an individual is not only irrelevant, but it is selfish or sinful or hurtful to the mission and to the religion and to your spirituality to focus on yourself, to figure out who you are on your own. Right. That the more you focus on yourself, the further you get away from God. And those messages really make people put that individuation journey that most people have to go on at some point to the side either forever or until it comes, like, seeps out in unhealthy ways. And that can be really, really difficult for people to deal with.

[A]

Okay, so here when you say, you know, the hierarchy with obedience is expected. Obedience and loyalty. And then abandon who you are or don't pay any attention to who you are or anything within yourself that comes up that feels outside of what you've been told you're supposed to be doing. Am I picking this up? Right?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the whole, the whole hierarchy of how it's often preached is God comes first, others come second, you come last, always. Right? God comes first. Then your service to others, how you take care of people around you come second, you and your needs are last always. Or if you think of like the umbrella of authority or protection. Right. The concept of God, husband and then wife. Right. That continued concept of you come last, it doesn't promote individuation. It doesn't promote that search for identity and who you are, whether within a church or without a church or just. It doesn't allow for you to have any sort of separation between who you are and what the mission is or the setting is that you grew up around.

[A]

Okay, so. And forgive my questions, but I just don't have a lot of experience inside of this environment. So with what you just shared about that patriarchal, heteronormative God, first husband, then wife, is it also for the male partner in that construct, is it God, wife, husband?

[B]

No, definitely not. No. Always comes before wife for sure. Right. And it's then the husband's job to protect the wife and then the children, right? It's his, like, spiritual duty. So it's not. It's often not seen as a hierarchy, Right. Because each one is considered to serve the one above. Right. So the children serve to the parents, the mother serves the father, the father Serves the, the God. Right. So it's seen in that type of hierarchy, whereas it often plays out opposite where it's. Things are being pushed downhill versus up.

[A]

Can you say more about that? It's how it's actually in practice. It's really not the way that it's being taught.

[B]

So, like it's being taught through the lens of service. Right. Like you serve that figurehead above you kind of thing. Whereas it actually, in practice, in high demand, high control settings, can instead look like oppression from the level down. Right. And continuing down and each level getting further and further oppressed the more down that hierarchy you go. So that is where it can often then get skewed because the idea of serving others is wonderful. But like when you add in the oppressive element that is no longer wonderful.

[A]

It's weird in my brain and I don't know if people who are listening will have the same experience, but there's so much systems thinking that I'm having here because, you know, this is also sort of need I say, the way that certain things are being portrayed out in the world as how we should do things, for example, in a, in a country. And then, you know, the way it's actually being implemented is more in the oppressive realm that you just shared. Yeah, but I think that happens in families, any system, right. Any group, it can be people abuse the power when they're at the top.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. It's. It's incredibly easy for humans to, to get into that, to do that. And I think that that's also where people don't relate to it as much because it's harder to put names on that or it sounds more extreme. Like when we were talking earlier, you mentioned, like when people hear of a cult, they think of something really extreme. They think of something out in the middle of nowhere. And it's not often like that. Like, occasionally you do get things like that, which are the more extreme. But, you know, my personal story, which I'm pretty open about, is that I was raised in a cult here in Virginia, like southern Virginia, outside of the Blacksburg area. Most people would not have expected that. You know, my father at the time worked at Virginia Tech. Like, it's. There was a lot of. We were out in the community in other ways, but, you know, he was out in the community. He was allowed to do that. My mother was not allowed to be outside of the home. Right. I wasn't allowed to wear pants as a female identifying child at the time. I wasn't allowed to cut my hair. You know, we were homeschooled. All of the media that we, you know, we didn't have TV or access to outside media. We had worship music, we had bibles, we had Christian based books that we were allowed to read, Christian based curriculums. We didn't have any exposure to any other resources or media outside of our school specific church, which was a cult. And that's what I call it now as I look back on it. And just that like tight knit, we couldn't get any information outside of there. So we didn't even know what was happening was not okay. And the visas that were happening to myself and other people within that community and it took a very long time for me to. To come out of that. The only reason my family left that church is that there was, you know, as what always happens is narcissistic leadership, there's infighting, and the whole thing broke up. So if that hadn't happened, who knows, I could have still been in it. And it took a very long time to figure out, okay, what is, what did that look like? What are those systems of being in such an isolated. In such an isolated place for so long with such limited access to widespread information and resources versus a very narrow definition of what I was told the world was. And that took a ton of work for self identity and figuring out who I am outside of that. And really it's only, you know, I'm 35 now, but it's really only been in my 30s that I feel like I know who I am now. But it, it took me for all of my teens to mess everything up and then all of my 20s to put it all back together again.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I wasn't aware of that part of your story. So that's really. And I'm from Virginia. I mean, I live in Maryland now, so it's not like Virginia's that far away, but Blacksburg, Virginia Tech, that's all like familiar stuff to me. So I have a friend growing up who was in a cult too, and one of her parents was the leader. And it was just their family, but everything was focused on serving this group, I guess. I mean, it's not even clear what. There were teachings and it was like biblical, but. And they were homeschooled too. So this is. Hmm. Wait a second. And though the girls all had certain roles within the family that the boys didn't, the girls did all the cleaning and all of the taking care of the younger kids. It's almost like the Duggars type thing. And that Was right in where I lived, Right on a normal street in the neighborhood. Not in a secluded place or anything, but they all lived in two houses right next to each other. And it was all kind of. It was secretive, but it was also right there in the open.

[B]

Yeah, it's definitely very secretive. You're taught very early on not to share what's going on. And you're not taught through the lens of, oh, something is bad, we need to keep it to ourselves. You're not taught through that lens. You're taught through the lens of everyone else is bad. We need to protect ourselves from them. Right. I was taught, like, secular is evil. Right. Like, secular means you're going to hell. And if you hang out with secular people, if you're friends with secular people, you are going to hell too. Right. So it wasn't like I was keeping secrets from the outside world. I thought I was protecting myself from the evils of the secular world. That is how that happens. Right. And then you also have such limited access to widespread knowledge that you're able to. That people are in those settings, are able to continue that belief system. Because, you know, I didn't have Internet. I didn't have tv. I didn't. I remember one time someone, another young kid, shared a Britney Spears song with me. The punishment I received, I literally thought, listening to this Britney Spears song one time, I was like, I don't know, 10 or 11. I was like, oh, that's it. I'm going to hell. This is all done. It's all done here, from here. So you're really taught, not that you're keeping a secret, you're taught that you are protecting yourself and your family from eternal damnation.

[A]

Yeah. It's absurd in a way we can laugh about, you know, one listening to a Britney Spears song. Come on, that's innocent. But at the same time. Well, right, innocent. But, you know, Britney Spears wasn't exactly being treated as she should have as a child either. But. But the fear of hell that you had been indoctrinated with, I'm sure. Not to mention the. You said punishment, I'm sure that was pretty severe as well, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Fear is a big way to teach obedience. Right. And like, obedience often when I'm like, helping people work through religious trauma, there's also like a parent child element to it, whether it's within your actual family or the concept of God as a parent and what that looks like. And now as a parent myself, and I think about trying to, if I were to try to Raise my children to be obedient to me based on fear if they feared me. I mean, it's the. One of the least effective ways for, like, actually raising, like, a healthy, normal human. Right. Like, even me, when I was taught obedience, I. I learned how to hide things better. I learned how to lie better. Like, I learned how to not open up more. Right. Like, I didn't learn how to actually just do things the way they wanted because I believed it. I just learned how to get along to cause the least conflict possible, or I was just like, you know, effort and threw dynamite into the situation. So one or the other.

[A]

Right. So you're saying that you really learned to suppress aspects of yourself not to function the way that you were being taught because it's not realistic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you are discouraged from questioning of any kind. Right. That's what obedience is. If you're asking a question, oh, you must not really believe, you must not really have a strong faith, why are you questioning? You know, what is happening? Is the devil telling you to question? Is that the devil in your ear? So nobody wants to do that.

[A]

You'd be afraid if you hear that could be the devil because, you know, to be afraid of the devil.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like learning to be afraid of your natural self. The. The you. That's really right.

[B]

Whereas I, I saw a. I saw a comparison the other day to current, like, current state of affairs or things that. That Lucifer was the first example of an oppressed population fighting the oppressor. I was like, oh, that's a very interesting way to look at the fight between heaven and Hell.

[A]

I feel like we're not doing this, but I feel like we could. It almost could be like we're having a conversation up here and under here, there's this whole, like, parallel happening. It's. It's. Because everything you're saying is just making me think of so many of. Of the ways that this is playing out in our current time. You know, everything from like, the book 1984 and thought police and all of those ideas and book burning and all of that is about keep people ignorant of information that doesn't fit the narrative that we are trying to push, and they will begin to just believe the narrative that we are trying to push. And if you eventually, as we know over history, like the Crusades, if we just wipe out everyone who has a different narrative, the genocide of the Native Americans, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all the ways that we keep trying to do this as a dominant Culture, but people still keep rising because humanity is irrepressible. And, you know, we. It's just we want to be in the light and the real light.

[B]

I tell people all the time, like, it doesn't matter, like, how difficult things are right now. Like, history has always leaned towards the side of justice eventually. It's just we're not there today, and that's hard. But it does lean that way. And historically, if you look back at the world, it always has.

[A]

I agree. And Martin Luther King said that too. The arc of the moral universe is long. Yeah, Long people. It's long, absolutely. But it does lean towards justice.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's really important to think about. I, you know, as at my practice, I work a lot with the queer community and trans community, and so there is a lot of overlap with trauma in religious settings, particularly around identity of self, because there is nothing more alienating and shame creating to know who you are, usually at a young age, that you maybe know you're gay or maybe know you're not supposed to be in the body that you were given for whatever reason, and then be told that those things are evil, that those identities that you know you hold or you fear you might hold are evil. And you have to deny that. Right. And then you're also taught denial as a positive thing going forward. Right. You're taught to fast, you're taught to go through Lent, you're taught to go through these actionable experiences in which you deny your body something. And then you try to maybe experiment or say, maybe I am attracted to the same sex. Maybe I wasn't meant to be the gender I was assigned at birth. And then you're told, like, that is wrong or evil. That identity that you hold is. You're not allowed to. It's a shameful thing. And in the same message, you're told, God doesn't make mistakes. You're supposed to be exactly who you are. And so you're like, I know this who I am, and you're telling me who I am is evil. And God doesn't make mistakes, so God made me evil. What does that mean? Like, how do you unpack that in terms of your identity and figuring out how to then love yourself when you're told who you were created to be is evil or sinful? Or you have to deny those parts of yourself to move forward or to be closer to Christ or your community or whatever, Fill in the blank. It's a very impossible narrative to untangle or figure out how to live within.

[A]

Yeah, I'M just thinking about what you see about Jesus. What Jesus did isn't the same as those messages of exclusion.

[B]

Yeah. It's the exact opposite actually. Right. If Jesus made no mistakes and I'm a non binary person, then I'm a non binary person. And you just have to accept that.

[A]

This is the way I am because that's the way I was made and it's right.

[B]

Yeah. The first time I was told that I was a lesbian, I was six. And it was in the cult and it was the leader screaming at my father that if my father wasn't a stronger Christian believer, man, father, husband, I was going to become a lesbian because I was. I don't. Somehow it takes. I was already showing lesbian tendencies. I think it just meant I was a tomboy. I don't know. And I just remember being who you.

[A]

Are, just following what felt right for you.

[B]

Yeah. And I just remember being terrified. I was like, oh my gosh, what does that mean? That sounds like a terrible thing now. It's a great thing. I love it. It's really wonderful. But at the time it was sounded terrible and it meant that I was also then in the closet for the next 20 years after that. It took me. I came in and out of the closet in high school, again, in college, again after my first marriage. Like it, it was very, very difficult to like fully embrace and accept myself. And I've only been really living as my very true self for the last two years.

[A]

Today's episode is sponsored by Psychotherapy Networker and pesi. If you're a therapist, be sure to check out the Partner page, which is linked in the show, where you can get discounted trainings with previous therapy chat guests like Courtney Armstrong, Dr. Leslie Korn, Dr. Arielle Schwartz, Dr. Tammy Nelson, Dr. Janina Fisher, Rebecca Case, Dr. Peter Levine, Dr. Lindsay Gibson, Deb Dana, Lori Gottlieb and many, many others. You'll find the link in the show Notes to my Partner page with PESI and Psychotherapy Networker where you can find all these discounted training. If you need Cesar, this is a great place to go. TherapyNotes is consistently transforming the way therapists manage their practices with continuous updates designed to save money and improve efficiency. Their latest Game Changer Therapy Fuel, a powerful and fully integrated suite of AI tools that streamline documentation so you can focus more on your clients. With AI features that help by generating progress notes from summaries or transcriptions, creating contact notes directly from client secure messages, and automated summaries of client history forms, TherapyNotes users are already reporting hours of saved time and energy. Some other recent feature improvements include automated recurring client payments, electronic secondary insurance billing, and their constantly expanding library of outcome measures. The best time to give TherapyNotes a try is now. Sign up for your free trial by going to therapynotes.com, clicking Start My Free Trial and accessing your first two months free with the promo code CHAT. See why TherapyNotes is the most trusted EHR for behavioral health professionals today? That is an experience that I've heard from many other people as well, that it's a process of really discovering who one is, especially when there are so many powerful forces trying to prevent you from accepting that about yourself. And I'm sure people can relate to that now with all the fear that's out there about LGBTQ identities. And as we're speaking about identity and you're bringing in gender and sexual identity, but really we are also talking beyond that about just development of your identity of self, who you are. So I wanted to pinpoint when you said the emphasis on obedience and then you talked about, or you mentioned the importance of individuation, which is a normal developmental process, but can you talk about that for those who are listening might not be familiar with that phrase or that concept?

[B]

Sure. The, the concept of individuation is when any person usually, like, it starts in adolescence and then hopefully, hopefully you figured it out kind of by your 20s, but everyone is continuing to then figure it out still for the rest of their life at some point. But it's the concept of who am I separate to my family or who I grew up around, or the setting I grew up in. Like, who am I actually? And we often see that, like adolescents rebelling because, right, they're like, I want to do something different. I want to figure out who I am. I want to try on all these different hats and see what fits for me specifically. Or we see it where, you know, kids go to college and they aren't as communicative with their parents or their siblings, and everyone kind of gets a little distance for a few years. And then mid 20s, they come back and they figured it out, and then they can hopefully reestablish those relationships a little bit stronger. But we often need that moment and separation to be able to figure out, okay, where do I end and other people begin? And you are not only not encouraged to do that in high demand, high control religions, but you're actively told that it's wrong, that it's sinful, that it's selfish, that it is leading you away from Christ. That that separation is bringing you further away from heaven, from Christ, from that relationship. And that makes the concept of individuation terrifying versus how it's supposed to be, which is exciting. Right. And exploratory. And oh, guess what? There's so many possibilities out there. Who do I get to be? How do I figure that out? Right. It's supposed to be, you know, it's always a bit of a nervous and anxiety experience for anybody, but it's supposed to have an exciting element to it. It's not supposed to be terrifying.

[A]

It's not supposed to equal hell or death. It's supposed to equal new opportunities.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And unlocking new parts of yourself and figuring out who you are and how that shows up in the world.

[A]

I mentioned to you before we started recording on the show the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not to specifically focus on Mormonism in particular, but in there's two characters and it's Heather and Whitney, Right. Who grew up in very adherent, strict Mormon families that were apparently part of the early Mormon people who founded the church. And they're related to each other. And both of them come onto the show divorced and having been excommunicated from the church involuntarily, they didn't want to leave. And you sort of see the way. And it's two different tracks, but you see the way they both begin to discover more about who they are outside of that and all of the ways that the. The way they were brought up told them they were supposed to be and how that impacts them. And I think one thing you could notice in the. Especially in the earlier seasons is both of them come into the show in the group behaving in ways that are very kind of like young teen, like. Yeah, yeah, they're like telling on each other and exposing, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You said this about them and stuff like that. It's. It's very much like middle school kind of.

[B]

Well, there is like a. An adolescence or puberty that kind of has to happen again anytime you come out of something like that. Right. That individuation piece is. Is meant to happen like in adolescence and early or young adulthood. And so to go through that in any setting is really difficult. Right. A lot of people go through it first time coming out of the closet, first time coming out of a religion, first time transitioning genders. That's a very just normal process of re discovering yourself and re identifying in certain ways and figuring out like, how to do so in a healthy way. The difficulty with it like on shows like that or in, in a lot of places where there are eyes on you, which certainly in a religious community or any small town or gathering where everyone's eyes are on you also, including America watching you on a show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The difficulty is people don't forgive that. They don't see it as part of your, your growth arc. They just see, oh, season one version of you is who you are. So now we're at season, I don't know what season we're at. And you've grown and you're this more mature person who's more grounded in your identity and who you are. And people are like, that's fake. I remember when you were acting like this. And it's like, who wants to be held, have their teenage version of themselves held over them all this time? And that's something like just we as a human population do a lot of we hold people's pasts against them or their worst moments against them for so, so long.

[A]

That is so true.

[B]

Yeah. And there's just no like, opportunity for redemption or for meeting a person where they're at in a new place. Right. My entire family, you know, when I left the, when we left the religion and you know, the things that happened to me in that religion made me a very angry child. Very angry child and teenager and worse versions of myself. I didn't have a therapist, I didn't have anyone helping me and I had family actively doing the opposite. And so that 13ish year old version of me who is angry and a bully to my siblings, that's how my family views me to this day. They haven't known me for 20 years, but if I were to call one of them up today, I mean, not only would they not answer my call, but they would just picture me as that 13 year old version. Right. None of them have ever done any therapy or work on themselves since. And they have never allowed themselves to get to know who I am today or to even consider that maybe I'm not 13 years old anymore.

[A]

I'm so sorry that you've had that experience.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely not great. It's still like a pain point for me for sure. But it's also, I think of it more as a pain point for them. Right. Of I feel so blessed that I've given myself the space and time and freedom and autonomy to pursue healing and to then put myself in a place where I can provide that to others. And I think of what life would be like if I had. If I Continued to live in that shutdown place of, like, my identity of self wasn't allowed to be explored would be just incredibly difficult. You know, like, when I did eventually come out really publicly to my family as a lesbian, that was, you know, the end. Like, they're no longer, you know, I'm no longer welcome around. They're praying for me, though. They're praying for my soul. So that's great. But, yeah, I'm no longer welcome around. And I think to, like, the difference of, well, would I rather still be in those systems pushing down my identity and who I am and not living my life the way I want to be, or would I be okay with. I had to give up a lot. Right. And I had to decide that that was worth it to be where I am at now. And without a doubt, looking back, it's absolutely worth it and was so worth it to me to be where I am now, where I'm. I feel so lucky and happy and fulfilled. But it was not without loss.

[A]

And the nuance of that is what's lost in those environments where black and white thinking, dogmatic views and labels and judgment are how the lens through which everyone is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Perceived. It doesn't. It doesn't even create any space for just making mistakes, even if you're not challenging, but just, oh, I didn't read the Bible today because I was sick or something. You know, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it's so difficult because, like, in order to get out of that system, any sort of traumatic religious system or just oppressive system at all, you have to fight really, really hard. And some people just don't have the energy for that, don't have the resources for that, don't have the ability to do so. Or for some, it's just. It's the idea of it is too overwhelming. My favorite quote that I personally live by for my life is that it took me so much violence to become this gentle. And I think that is kind of the umbrella concept of therapy. Right. That it involves so much heavy work and so much hard stuff in order to find peace. And that is just a really difficult thing to do within a oppressive system.

[A]

Ever so true. And. And especially when there's no one you can connect with who's giving you another. A lifeline.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Another way to look at it or helping you understand what you're going through. I think a really important point that you brought up, I just want to say out loud because maybe everybody else already knows all this about religious trauma, but I'm learning a lot all the time. Whenever I'm thinking about it, whenever I'm talking to people about it, I'm just learning so much more. And one idea is I made an assumption that you left voluntarily, but really, I mean, in a way, by coming out, you made a choice that you knew to. To tell that. That you knew that wouldn't be popular, but it wasn't like you didn't want to still be connected. It's that you were shunned.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that happens more than most people. In fact, I was speaking with a client today whose family, when they came out as trans to their family, their family did the same thing. And the client said, just to be clear, you're cutting me out. I'm not cutting you out. And that, I think, happens a lot more than people think. But they point to the one who is ostracized as the problem because you're no longer part of a system. So there must be something wrong with you. You're the outlier. And it's rarely the case.

[A]

Right. Because biologically, we all want to be connected with our families and especially our primary caregivers and siblings. I think it's important to name for people who are listening that don't realize this, how many homeless youth are LGBTQ youth who were forced away from their families in just this manner and then end up on the streets, homeless and end up in sex work and things, you know, where it's obviously not really voluntary when they're children. So that's, you know, this, this has a tremendous social impact even beyond the families are directly impacted.

[B]

I've actually, you know, that reminds me, I had a. A huge experience in this area, in the DMV area with. There's an organization that specifically caters to helping homeless youth in the area. And they pair like mentors, adult mentors with the kids to help them kind of get back on their feet. And I went through their mentor program and I got to the end and I mentioned in it, oh, oh, yeah, I'm a lesbian. And I was denied, like, I wasn't allowed to then be a mentor to these kids here in this Arlington area. And I didn't realize it was a Christian based organization. And that a lot of the resources that homeless youth have are either nothing each other or some sort of Christian based or some sort of religious based group. And while sometimes that can be helpful, it also usually means that child, that youth has to decide between shelter, food, resources, and being themselves and who they are. And it just continues the cycle of so much difficulty of being Able to accept your identity and self. If you don't have the resources to take care of yourself, then you don't have the privilege of getting to discover yourself. Somebody else has that privilege over you.

[A]

That is just, like, really sad. And I'm sorry that again, for that. For those youth who could have used your support, I'm really sorry that you didn't get to be part of it. But on the other hand, why would you want to be part of an organization that would be like that? But, you know, that's. That's the whole tension of everything we're talking about. It's like you wouldn't want to be part of something that's so oppressive and abusive and traumatizing, and yet those kids need those resources. Right?

[B]

Churches are wealthy. Churches are wealthy. They have the ability to help if only they would do so without strings attached.

[A]

Yeah. And some do.

[B]

And some do. Yes.

[A]

So for a last point, I think for our conversation, this is something that you brought up to me before, that you've already mentioned. You're not anti religion, but what are some ways that people who have had religious trauma experiences like you and the people that you're serving and you're writing to in your book, how can they find healthy relationship with religion or. And. Or spirituality?

[B]

Oh, that's a hard one that I don't know if I've even fully answered for myself. I think I'm still on that journey myself of what do I believe and how do I implement that into my life? Obviously I'd say go to therapy, start there and, you know, check with your therapist ahead of time that they're able to hold that space for you in a neutral way as you figure that out. Outside of that, it's really focusing on what do you believe versus what have you been told? Whose message is it in your head? Whose narrative is it in your head? Right. Whose voice are you hearing when you're thinking, is it actually yours? And that, I think, takes a lot of untangling. I encourage people to do just more research, right? Explore more. Visit other types of religious settings and religions and spiritualities and explore all the different things. Explore nothing, whatever you want to do, right? But really learn how to listen to your gut of the learning how to build that muscle of being able to tell the difference between what's uncomfortable versus what's unsafe and allowing yourself to be uncomfortable a lot, but not allowing yourself to be unsafe. And that is a. Just a really difficult muscle to build when you are told from, like, birth that anything outside of that Particular belief system is unsafe, whereas it's.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

It might be uncomfortable, but it's not unsafe.

[A]

I think that the challenge, as a someone with complex ptsd, of learning to listen to the voice inside or the sense in your body that tells you when you feel unsafe and separated from. You know, we have this fear reaction that's like, danger, life threat, get out. But we also have. Ooh, I don't like this. This is reminding me of something. This feels uncomfortable. It's not the same feeling, but when we're kind of disconnected from our bodies. Oh, my gut's telling me something. It means danger. It's really hard to tease that out.

[B]

Incredibly hard. Yeah. And it involves, like, some of that individuation period, where you usually mess it up for a while. And that's okay because it takes practice. It's the muscle you have to build.

[A]

Yeah. I love, too, what you said about the individuation and the. The teen behavior when someone is going through that. That new rebirth experience, that's so compassionate and. And really important because it is about allowing people to be in their humanity as they are. Humans are messy.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, we absolutely are. But I think that's, like, the beauty of it, right? Like, art is messy and creating is messy, and we love those things, and they're really meaningful. We wouldn't be here without it. Like, it's beautiful.

[A]

So true. And change is challenging. Change is difficult. So we don't always have to fear change, but maybe just give ourselves time to regroup as we're going through changes and maybe not try to rush through and force things, but. Well, another point about religion before we wrap up that just came to my mind is here, where I live in Maryland. It's a. It's a progressive state, but I live in a very conservative, traditional place. And I see oftentimes in Facebook groups where people are saying, oh, we're looking for a new church. We're new to the area. Where's a church that will be welcoming and accepting to me and my partner. We're lesbians. Or whatever their identity might be. And people will say, oh, go to this church, go to that church. Go to this church, go to that church, go to this church. And then other people will say, I left that church because they required me to sign something saying that I would not associate with anyone who was LGBTQ plus. And it's, again, for people like me who didn't grow up like this, it's like, what?

[B]

What? So, yeah, it happens a lot. Like, even, you know, I spent most of my twenties, up into ish years ago at a church here in the D.C. area that I thought was very compassionate and very open, and I would have said was open to the queer community, even though they never said it. Right. But them never saying it should have been the sign to me. And so they were fine with me identifying, like, as bi, bisexual, while I was in a straight passing marriage with a man, because they didn't have to confront it. They didn't have to see it. The moment that I was like, no, I'm actually not bi. Like, I'm a lesbian, they had to confront it. They had to see it. And the moment I held them accountable in that way, they shut me out. And I was no longer welcome at that church. And it's a very progressive church in the area where gay people still go to that church and have no idea that they're not welcome. And it just took me about 10 years in that church to get up to the leadership level to be like, oh, wait, yeah, okay, it is all white men up here.

[A]

Ten years.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, I just want to point out, like, that's deceptive.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I'm. I'm gonna say this because I'm mad now, but it's. Your money was fine, but you, you know, being who you really are wasn't. That's effed up. And also, you know, I think that when people have been really surrounded by these ways of thinking and they don't know that there are more ways.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're like, oh, yeah, we accept everyone. How can you think that you accept everyone when your members are signing things, saying that they won't talk to or whatever, accept people who are different. I don't care what the difference is. Why would the church ask you to do that?

[B]

Well, why would a church in any ways be like, oh, everyone is welcome here, but, yeah, you can't be in leadership, or you're a woman, so you can't be a leader, or you're a gay, so you can't be a leader. Or we just don't want you to talk about it, or can't you just not do that here kind of thing? You know, and it's. That's actually not what acceptance is at all.

[A]

No, not at all. And therapists who are listening to this if you think that you are, oh, I can work with anyone. I can work with LGBTQ people. I mean, I don't approve of it, but you know that they can do whatever they want. It's. No, that ain't it.

[B]

Absolutely not. Yeah. I say, like, I. It is not enough to be queer affirming. Right. That should be a baseline. Like, we're straight affirming every day. Queer affirming should be a baseline. We need to be more than that. We need to be queer celebratory. We need to be celebrating people's identities in those ways and how it impacts them and helping them to celebrate it as well. It's not something we should ever tolerate.

[A]

Oh, yes, exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Well, this is a lot of good information for people who are listening, who have someone in their family that this would impact. You know, someone who's LGBTQ plus or any other identity that you're saying, well, they're biracial, but we just act like they're white. You know, like all the ways that we. We try to promote heteronormative patriarchal whiteness and everything else is less. We all need to be examining that at all times. And because we need a more loving, diverse world, that's our way forward.

[B]

Yeah. Biology is diverse. Nature is diverse. It's how we move forward. If it wasn't, everything would end.

[A]

Exactly. The whole. Yeah. The whole ecosystem is diverse, and that's its survival. And without it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There isn't survival.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, Essie, this is a really great conversation. I'm so grateful that you came and spent some time with me again today and tell everyone where they can find your book when it comes out, all the amazing stuff that you're doing.

[B]

Sure. The best way would be to check our website where we'll certainly post when it goes live. Or you can subscribe to our email list lgbt counseling dmv.com or you can follow me on Instagram @scneely s c n E A L Y And I'll definitely be posting about it there too.

[A]

Great. I will link to both of those in the show notes. And Essie, again, thank you so much for being my guest today.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

TherapyNotes is the highest rated EHR practice management and billing software for mental health professionals. Its all in one platform is designed to streamline all aspects of your practice from connecting with clients via secure messages to scheduling, notes, billing and more. You can trust TherapyNotes has you covered and one of the best parts 24. 7 customer service. With a live person, it's beyond easy to get help over the phone or by email at any time of day from their knowledgeable and friendly representatives. The best time to give TherapyNotes a try is now sign up for your free trial by going to therapynotes.com clicking start my free trial and accessing your first two months free with the promo code chat see why therapynotes is the most trusted EHR for behavioral health professionals today. Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat.

[B]

With your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC. For more information, please visit therapychatpodcast.com.