Session 407: Driving Anxiety

Summary

Therapy for Black Girls

Session 407: Driving Anxiety

Host: Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Guests: Fran (Wellness advocate, Friend Zone podcast co-host), Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)
Release Date: April 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the often unspoken topic of driving anxiety—especially its unique impact on adults learning to drive later in life. Dr. Joy Harden Bradford discusses the societal assumptions around driving, the cultural differences in learning this skill, the mental health challenges associated with driving phobias, and practical, compassionate strategies for overcoming fear behind the wheel. Wellness advocate Fran shares her personal journey learning to drive in her 40s, while Dr. Jameka Moore provides clinical insight into the nature and treatment of driving-related anxiety.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fran’s Story: Learning to Drive as an Adult

Context of Growing Up in New York City

• Fran describes the lack of pressure to learn to drive as a New Yorker due to ubiquitous, affordable public transit and the logistical difficulty and expense of keeping a car in the city.
• "It's not a class thing. It's not a race thing. It's just a convenience thing." — Fran [06:06]
• Although she obtained a license in high school ("just enough to pass the test"), she barely drove after that [06:41].

Moving to Oregon and Facing Driving Anxiety

• Upon relocating to Oregon, Fran realized driving was unavoidable and the cultural expectation was the opposite of NYC.
• "To be learning in my 40s, a pretty scary skill, like driving, was very overwhelming. Actually it was more overwhelming than I anticipated." — Fran [07:25]

Specific Fears and Physical Reactions

• The highway was her biggest anxiety trigger—muscle tension, shallow breathing, and ongoing bodily stress when merging [08:52].
• Relied on community tips, like navigation apps that indicate lanes, to manage stress [09:56].

Tech as a Supportive Tool

• Found comfort in tech (Google Maps, Waze), which minimizes uncertainty about exits/lanes—crucial when panicking [10:03].

Relearning and Unlearning

• Because Fran had some prior experience, driving "came back like riding a bicycle," but she still erred on the side of caution and drove slowly at first [10:55].

2. Social Pressures and Road Rage

Pressure to Drive Faster

• Fran experienced hostility from other drivers for going the speed limit, leading to self-doubt and pressure to conform.
• "I found that people would honk at me...I kind of activated a lot of rage in people by driving the speed limit or even going above." — Fran [12:12]
• Realized much of this road rage feels "misdirected" and potentially exacerbated by pandemic stress [13:35].

Parking Anxiety

• Felt watched and rushed, especially parallel parking or backing in, but practiced in low-pressure settings like empty lots [14:17].
• "I went to, like, a Target parking lot and just practiced pulling in, pulling out..." — Fran [14:52]

Setting Boundaries with Self and Others

• Established driving boundaries (no night/rain driving yet) and advocated for no in-the-moment criticism from her partner [31:48]; feedback is only provided after driving to avoid panic [45:02].

3. Managing Anxiety: Rituals and Mindset Shifts

Coping Tools and Grounding Strategies

• Fran uses a weighted blanket, calming diffuser, curated playlist, and prayer to self-soothe before and during drives [16:44], [34:46].
• "I drive with a blanket wrapped around me to help me stay grounded. I have a diffuser that diffuses essential oils...I make sure I have like a driving playlist..." [16:44]

Self-Talk and Acceptance

• Actively talks herself through anxieties in real-time:
  • "Talk yourself through what's kicking up for you. If you're feeling shame, then, like, have that convo with yourself while you're driving." [46:35]

Mindful Progress and Self-Compassion

• Fran appreciates celebrating small wins and gives herself grace for not being instantly proficient.
• "The pride to see the progress...I went from, like, creating that to do list and trying to get through it that day to now it’s not even a second thought." [21:27]
• Her goal: "Take as long as I need to and make my mistakes." [30:15]

4. Navigating Adult “Late Bloomers” and Shame

• Fran directly addresses shame around learning to drive as an adult, emphasizing that "it's not late."
• "We have our reasons for why we didn't develop these skill sets. And I think the biggest thing is to just forget that part. Just accept that part." [32:58]
• Encourages baby steps, such as driving to do one small errand [33:11].

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5. Clinical Insights: Dr. Jameka Moore on Driving Anxiety

Nature and Prevalence

• Driving phobias include fear of highways, merging, being a passenger, weather conditions, or unfamiliar places.
• More young people are delaying driving, possibly due to tech alternatives and less in-school driver's ed [52:27].

Roots of Anxiety

• Catastrophic thinking (“worst-case scenarios”), modeling from anxious caregivers, personal or observed traumatic driving experiences fuel the phobia [53:10].

Treatment Approach: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Exposure

• Cognitive Restructuring: Identify and challenge distorted thoughts, distinguish rational concern from exaggerated anxiety [54:35].
• Exposure Therapy: Gradual, structured practice—starting in empty lots up to highways, fostering anxiety management while driving, not elimination of all anxiety [56:22].
  • "Exposure therapy is directly confronting whatever that fear is...We create like a graduated plan in order to help clients work on their own specific zone." — Dr. Moore [56:22]
  • Emphasizes anxiety management, not total eradication: "This is about learning to manage your anxiety while doing the thing." [57:38]

Practical Exposure Plans

• Involves exposure buddies, with gradual reduction of their support to avoid dependence [60:01], [62:41].

Setbacks and Realistic Expectations

• Common obstacles: expecting zero anxiety, avoidance of exposure practice, lack of accountability [73:45].
• Not suitable for those with true skill deficits—need basic driving ability before tackling anxiety [75:00].

Tips for Support Systems

• Family/friends should ask what support is helpful, provide encouragement, and avoid over-accommodation [66:39].
• "Meet people where they are. I think we forget a simple question to just say, how can I support you?" — Dr. Moore [66:39]

Lessons on Acceptance

• The goal is to learn to drive despite anxiety, not in its total absence. Anxiety-free life is not required.
• "Learning how to live with the anxiety and not coming to therapy thinking that your anxiety is going to 100% disappear." [76:34]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Fran on pride after her first solo drive:
  "It was so hard, and I wanted to cry, and I was trembling for most of it, but I did it. I remember when I came and parked in front of my house, I just started clapping. I was in that car, clapping so hard, and I was like, you did it. You did it." [18:41]
• Fran on shame and late-blooming:
  "People will throw terms around like late bloomer...It’s blooming at some point." [49:02]
• Dr. Moore on exposure therapy:
  "You can’t treat phobias without exposure therapy. It just doesn’t work." [56:22]
• Dr. Moore on managing, not eliminating, anxiety:
  "There is no anxiety-free life...I'd rather [clients] expect it to show up and be like, 'Okay, I can drive and be anxious, I can talk and be anxious.'" [73:41]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Fran’s background & NYC driving culture: [06:06]
• Fran’s specific driving anxieties (highway, merging): [08:52]
• Fran’s coping rituals (blanket, diffuser, playlist): [16:44], [34:46]
• Celebrating small wins & personal milestones: [21:27], [18:41]
• Shame and stigma around late learning: [32:58], [49:02]
• Introduction of Dr. Moore/psychological roots: [51:02], [53:10]
• Treatment strategies (CBT, exposure): [54:35], [56:22]
• Role of exposure buddies: [60:01], [62:41]
• Supporting loved ones with driving anxiety: [66:39]
• Living with—not erasing—anxiety: [76:34]

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Summary Takeaways

• Driving anxiety is more common than admitted, especially in those who did not learn as teens and those moving to new environments.
• Facing fears is a process that requires compassionate self-talk, patience, and acceptance of the discomfort.
• Rituals and practical supports (music, diffusers, self-talk, and prayer) can help make driving more manageable.
• Therapeutic approaches focus on cognitive reframing, graduated exposure, and learning to function alongside anxiety, not erasing it.
• Support from loved ones is most helpful when it is patient, affirming, and guided by the actual needs of the driver.
• Celebrating incremental growth and confronting shame is key—it's never "too late" to learn a life skill.

To stay connected with Fran:

• Website and social: @heyfranhey
• The Friend Zone podcast (new episodes Wednesdays)

Connect with Dr. Jameka Moore:

• Website: drjamikamoore.com
• IG: @jamsession

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This episode is a powerful resource for anyone experiencing driving anxiety, their loved ones, or anyone confronting "late bloomer" shame connected to essential adult skills. The shared stories and clinical expertise deliver both solidarity and actionable strategies for moving forward—one mile at a time.

Transcript

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more or to find a therapist in your area, visit our [e-mail] while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining Me for session 407 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Have you heard the news? Therapy for Black Girls is launching our Community on Patreon. It's your space to be seen, heard and understood in an even more connected way. We're excited to bring you new segments.

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[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

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[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Driving and getting your license is generally considered a milestone achievement of adolescence in early adulthood. But for many, the prospect of driving is an incredible burden that leads to terrible anxiety. In fact, According to a 2020 study from the Insurance Information Institute, only 25% of 16 year olds in the United States had driver's licenses, compared to 43% in 1997. But even for adults, the prospect of driving presents obstacles, as was the case with one of today's guests. Hey, Fran Hey Is a wellness advocate, influencer, and most famously co host of the friendzone podcast. In a recent episode, she opened up about her struggles with getting her license and learning to drive as an adult. In today's conversation, I get to learn more about how Fran worked to overcome her driving anxiety. And then later on, I'll be joined by a clinical psychologist to learn more about what informs driving anxiety. I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Well, thank you so much for being here with us today, friend.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Absolutely. It's a pleasure. Pleasure. You know how I feel about you, so thank you.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Oh the Honor is mine. The honor is mine. So one of the many things that I love about the Friend Zone is that you all are so candid in kind of sharing your own kind of experiences of being a human and, like, the things that you're struggling with. And on a recent episode, you've been talking about, like, your anxiety around driving. So tell us a little bit more about that story for maybe people who haven't heard that episode of the Friend Zone and like your process of learning to drive and getting your license.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Well, yeah. So I am a true blue New Yorker. If you know anything about New Yorkers, we take the train everywhere, and it really isn't even a class thing. It's not a race thing. It's just a convenience thing. It's a train stop pretty much every couple blocks. You know, it's at this point, I think it's $2.90, but you could imagine just how easy it is to get where you're going, and it's quick and accessible. So all of us just took the train. So I never really felt called to, I guess, culturally, like the culture of New York, to learn to drive, to have a car. If you know anything about the parking as well, that's not an easy thing. New York is very expensive as well, so it's not easy to have a car in New York City. So it just wasn't something I had access to. I did have my license in high school because it was a prerequisite, which is great. But being that I didn't have a car, I learned just enough to pass the test and get the license. But then after that, it wasn't much practicing happening for me. And so when I moved to Oregon three years ago, I realized, oh, my goodness, I'm going to need a car. There's no train here. I can't just jump on a three or the two. And it's not that type of city. It's a walkable city, but transportation isn't, like, the main thing here. So had to get my car and to be Learning in my 40s, a pretty scary skill, like driving was very overwhelming. Actually was more overwhelming than I anticipated. And that's kind of what I've been sharing on the Friend Zone. Just the journey of learning to drive in your 40s.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's something we take for granted. I mean, I grew up in Louisiana, so, like, not in a walkable place, very much country. I mean, you could walk, but, like, to get anywhere, seriously, you needed to be able to drive.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yeah.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So we Take driver's ed in high school and drive pretty soon afterwards. But if you do grow up in a city like New York, that is not the expectation. Now I'm just curious. So to take the test in New York, what are you driving if most people don't have cars? Does the state have cars you drive for the license?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Okay. They had their own cars. I guess they assume most New Yorkers aren't going to have a car. So I think maybe they make concessions. Considering the state, I definitely did not have a car. I know for a fact I didn't borrow anyone because no one had a car. So, yeah, I think if I remember correctly, the exam had its own car and you just kind of rolled with it. Yeah, got it. Right.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So now that you have found yourself in Oregon, you know, having to develop the skill that you had not for a while, what are some of the specific fears that have come up for you around driving?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Oh, man. I think the biggest one for me was the highway. That one was the one that when I would get on the highway, like, I'd notice my shoulders would be high and I'd have to tell myself, like, lower your shoulders and breathe. I talk to myself a lot while I'm driving. The cool thing is a lot of our listeners who have also been driving for a very long time have given me a lot of amazing tips just on, like, the best apps to use. That kind of gives you more of a heads up on which side to get out of, so you're not as worried about exiting or entering or merging. And that's been really cool. Just like the community we've created. And there was no judgment. It was kind of like, hey, we got you learning this thing. So that's been really cool. But I'd say the highway is probably the one that even now I'm about to hit a full year of driving by myself, and I still kind of feel the little pings in my body whenever I have to merge onto that highway.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So I wasn't aware that there were apps that would plan out your route and it tells you, like, what lane to be in to make the exit.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Exactly. Yeah. Just using the Google Maps, some people liked Waze, some people didn't. But a lot of the maps, they kind of have these arrows to let you know, hey, in this many miles, you're going to, you know, exit on the right and stay on the left lane and stay on the right lane. It kind of will just tell you, even while you're driving, get to the third lane or move to the second lane. And that's extremely useful when you're already kind of panicking on, oh, my goodness, am I going to make it to the lane I need to be in in the exit time. You know, it's just like, all the things that kind of kick up. So helpful. You know, technology becomes helpful in those days.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When you started kind of relearning to drive, did you take additional, like, classes? Is it friend or family member who's been helping you? Like, how did you reacclimate yourself to the process of driving?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I will say this. Yeah, my partner definitely got in the car with me just to make sure I was okay. But it was surprising that I didn't forget in all those years. I mean, I had to be 17 when we first took the test. Obviously 18 when you get your license. But in all those years, I think I maybe drove a couple of times throughout, you know, when you're, like, in different cities as you get older, but not the way I'm driving now. And when I got in the car, it kind of was like riding a bicycle. It all came back to me. Just a reflex of, like, knowing how to adjust the mirrors and how to adjust the chair and making sure you could see everything with clarity and knowing where everything is and making sure you know how to use it and all the things that you'll need while you're on the road. But, yeah, I was surprised. I was pleasantly surprised that it kind of just like, all came back to me how to turn properly. Like, I was turning and driving, you know, slowly.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

But I was doing it. And to me, that was the coolest part. I will say people get really angry when you drive at the speed limit.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I get to depend on what lane you're in. Right. Like, if you're all the way over to the left, people are expecting you to be going super fast.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Right. But even the street just normally, like, not because the highway, that's kind of expected, like, people are going to get annoyed and, you know, but I mean, just the everyday city streets. I found that people would honk at me. I kind of activated a lot of rage in people by driving the speed limit or even going above. And I had to actually have a conversation with myself because I found myself feeling like, oh, well, maybe I should drive faster. But then I'm like, no, I have to drive at the speed that is legal. And then I'm comfortable with right now. Like, I'm still learning. And I've had to really fight to not feel pressured by the middle Fingers coming up at me and people yelling, and I'm like, whoa. The rage that this activates, it was, like, interesting to me, and it gets so angry. I'm literally just driving.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Speed limit. That's something that I've also had to learn. And I talked about that on the show, and we got a lot of feedback with. With people saying, oh, yeah, I get pissed. Like, we got places to be. People got things to do. Like, nobody got time for you to be driving like a turtle.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Wow. I feel like that is something that we always hear about road rage. Right. But I think definitely throughout the pandemic and now, like, I feel like people's rage has, like, increased. A lot of it probably doesn't even have to do with, like, being on the road rageful about other things.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yeah.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I think it's.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

It's misdirected. And, you know, I try to. To consider that, but at the same time, it's, like, overwhelming as someone that is developing, like, working through fears that are kicking up for me and then having to also, quote, unquote, accommodate people's rage on the road for whatever it is that they are dealing with. They don't know if, like, I'm a new driver. They don't know if I'm just not a great driver or if I'm older. Like, it's just automatic anger. That's been probably one of the most interesting things that I guess I didn't consider.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

As a new driver.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So is there any anxiety that has popped up for you around, like, parking?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Initially, yes, because it's that feeling that everyone's watching you.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yes.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

You have to do it quickly and perfectly, and you can't waste time. Especially, I will say Oregon is much calmer than New York, because in New York, you really don't have time to waste when you're parking. Like, there's gonna be cars behind you, lining up, honking, people, yelling, cursing. Like, y' all already know New York's a different beast. But Oregon, I will say, for the most part, because there's less traffic, I can find little places to practice. You know, like, that's what I did the first couple of weeks. Like, I went to, like, a Target parking lot and just practiced pulling in, pulling out, especially if it's two cars next to each other. Like, can you pull in without being too close and still being able to get out the car? I practiced in, like, residential areas that had a lot less cars and foot traffic and kind of put myself in that position to feel comfortable. And I think that's what helped me out.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah. And what about, like, backing into a spot in parallel parking? Like, to me, those feel like more advanced. Gil.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I'm not at the backing up. I make excuses like, oh, I'd prefer to just pull in, but I'm just not there yet. Parallel parking surprisingly, came natural, I'd say. Like, for some reason, my brain was able to understand the movements of it, like, the technical aspects. And so that is okay. I think what I'm still learning, though, is gauging the space, you know, because I drive an suv. So it's like, are you comfortably able to park in this space or not? Because you have to decide that so quickly, you know, as you're pulling up to it and working on those muscles.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Well, I don't personally. I also pull in.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I think it's.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

It is my husband, like, prefers to back into something. I'm like, what necessary? And it's like, oh, you know, if it's like a concert or something, you want to be able to drive out.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

That makes me feel better. Yes.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

You're not alone in that at all, friend. For sure. Knowing what I know of you, like, you exude, like, this easefulness. Like, your whole goal is to have things as easeful as possible. This feels very, like, in the face of that. Right. Like, nothing about driving really is easeful, especially when you are first learning. So how have you kind of reconciled this, like, very difficult thing that feels very against how you normally show up in the world.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I mean, that's the hard part. There's no way to make it easeful. Like, it's just a part of life that's not easeful. And I think it's like. It's like anything. It's like there's going to be some things, Fran, that you just can't control and you still have to be a part of. And it hasn't been joyful. You have to relax. Because I just feel so tense in a lot of moments when I'm driving, it's slowly starting to dissipate because I think I'm have finding more trust in my skills. And that's the thing. When you're learning something, it's scary to feel like you don't know what you're doing. But I'm trusting myself more. I'm trusting my defensive driving. That's the biggest one thing, because you might trust your own skill set, but you also don't have control of the other cars around you. Like I said, their rage, or even just their skill set. There's just so Much that you have to consider when you're on the road. You're in this big metal thing going at insane speeds, or at least the cars around me are. And so it's the one thing I have to say, like, it's not easeful, but I do do that. Help me. Like, I drive with, like, a blanket wrapped around me to help me stay grounded. I have a diffuser that diffuses essential oils that calm me. I make sure I have, like, a driving playlist that is songs that call me, you know, so, like, I can control the aspect I can control, and then the rest. I'm just at the mercy of driving. Like, that's just what it is. I try my best. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

And I think you bring up a good point around, like, when you're learning new skills. But I think about, like, some skills are very different than others. Right.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Like, right. Some of them are safe. Exactly.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Like, we can have anxiety about public speaking, but likely nobody's gonna die if you forget your words. This feels very different because the level of controlling what you're doing, but also the other drivers really pushes you.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yes. And I think it has been a huge learning lesson for me because one thing about a person like me that does, like, ease is that I can have control issues. Because you think that you can control every aspect of your life to make it, quote, unquote, easeful. And for the most part, I do have a pretty easeful life, But I also have to leave room for the parts that are just not gonna be that way because it's just not realistic, you know? Like, it's just not life in its full range, I guess you'd say. And I have to be fair and realistic and flexible with those aspects. And, like, I think that's why I stayed away from trying to drive for so long, because I knew that it was an aspect of life that was, like, scary and out of my control and all of the things. And so I don't know what clicked this year because I have been living here for three years, but it just. It was this year that something clicked. I don't know what it was, but it was like, the first day of April. And I literally told my partner because we had been driving a little bit here and there, but I was like, I'm getting in the car today, and I'm going by myself. And he was like, okay. I'm like, I'm gonna do a to do list. I made a to do list of the notes app of, like, five things I wanted to do. Like, Drop off a package, go buy this perfume I wanted at the mall. Like, I just, like, wrote five little things, and I told myself that I was gonna get in the car and knock out those five things on my to do list and not come home until they were done, and I did that. And I felt so proud because it was so hard, and I wanted to cry, and I was trembling for most of it, but I did it. I remember when I came and parked in front of my house, I just started clapping. I was in that car, clapping so hard, and I was like, you did it. You did it. Like, it just was like. And I guess that's the thing about the hard things, right? It's like, you do them, and then you're just, like, so proud of yourself for having the endurance and the bravery to just do it. I'm in my 40s. Like, there are people. My partner started driving when he was, like, 13. Like, just around with his uncles and stuff. And so, though his skill set is, like, it's, like, light years ahead of mine. And I have to not feel I'm catching up to anyone else and just be excited that I'm developing this thing that I was not able to do before. And that's been really cool.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah. And I think that that is the beauty. Like, my therapist's heart is, like, beaming. Right? Because that is what happens when we do hard things or things that we're afraid of. Right. Like, we finally learned that, hey, it was scary, but I did it. Right. And so that then builds this confidence and a muscle to. To continue to do difficult things I think that we may be afraid of.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

And the pride to see the progress. No, I'm definitely not the best driver yet, and I still have so much to learn and so much to work through. But I went from, like, creating that to do list and trying to get through it that day to now it's not even a second thought. Like, if we need groceries, I'm jumping in my car and going getting them. I'm driving myself to the gym. And it's actually been really helpful in me taking better care of myself, you know? Like, I'm able to, like, do the things I need to do for myself. And I feel like, oh, that's so cool. It's like, an added bonus to my quality of life. And so that in itself inspires me to keep learning and keep growing, trying to get better. And, you know, I still will sometimes go off into a parking lot and practice, because you can never get too comfortable. I know people that have been driving for 20 years that still feel scared and they tell me that they're like, yeah, or they still don't feel comfortable, like you said, backing up or parallel parking. And I'm like, okay. That actually helps me to not assume that I have to be this perfect driver within the year or else it's like I wasted my time. It's like, no, you just got to do what you got to do and keep going. And it's been great. Yeah.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

More from our conversation after the break.

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[HPV Vaccination PSA Speaker]

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[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Stop.

[HPV Vaccination PSA Speaker]

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[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

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[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So for the other two years that you've been in Oregon, Fran, had your partner just been driving you around? Were you taking Uber? So you were just kind of managing with that?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

A combination of both. If he was able, he would take me and if he wasn't around or wasn't able, I would jump in an Uber. Or I have a few friends out here to drive. So usually if we were going somewhere they would just like come and scoop me. And there were times where like if my partner was out of town for work or for family things, our car would be sitting in front of my house and here I am having an Uber pull up behind it to pick me up. And I just was like, girl, that started kind of letting me know like, you guys paid for this car. You know, you saved up for this car, like for it to be sitting there catching dust just because your partner isn't in town. It was affecting me emotionally, but for some reason I couldn't do it. I don't know what it was. I had such a block, like nothing in me wanted to get in that car. Nothing in me. Like. And my partner would ask and say, hey, let's go to a park. And I would always say no. And he was just like, why are you so resistant? I'm like, I'm just scared. There's really no way around it. I'm scared and I don't Feel ready. And sometimes if he would catch me on a more open day, I would say, okay, and we'd like drive a little. But I'd be in such a panic.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

That it just wasn't something I was like, how could I do this? Like, how am I supposed to drive? And I'm so scared. Scared to do this. Like, and then, you know, there's the added element of like, I'm so much older and feeling like I'm late and developing that skill. And am I just gonna be this nervous driver because I'm older and I locked in a little too late? Like, just all the things that your mind kind of plays around stories you create all the stories. Like I said, I don't know what hit in April of this year. I don't know if it was like we were in quarantine for all those years, which was kicking up a lot of emotional things. And maybe there was like an element of freedom that a lot of us were feeling this year of needing like break out of this fog. And I feel like it may have tied in with that, of that feeling of like I was in this discomfort in this sort of restricted space for so many years and using that as a crutch almost. And then this year something happens. I just busted out of it and got in that car by myself. Like I said, what do they say? Do it scared.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Do it scared.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I sure did.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

That's what you did.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I was like, not kidding you. My hands were trembling. But I've learned to talk myself through it. Like out loud. I'll talk to myself. Like I'll say what's kicking up? Or if I make a mistake, you know, obviously there are mistakes that I'll make and they're scary because you're driving. Like it's consequences of mistakes are very different. You know, when you're driving, it's like it's life altering and that's scary about it. By the grace of God, no mistake has been too crazy so far. You know, like it's just been little things where maybe I turned wrong. Or there's certain intersections, like those four way ones where y' all have to kind of look at each other and.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Decide who goes first when.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yeah, like, you know, just learning those things that, that you're not going to learn until you're in it. Like a book can tell you one thing or an instructor. But like when it's you by yourself, having to use your own driving instinct. Something that like you haven't developed in all this time, like it's you know, touch and go. But, like, there's no other way for me to learn it than to just, like, be in it. So I'm trying.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I also think that there's something really powerful about, like, honoring the fear. Right. Like, no, I just don't feel ready. Right. But then when you were. Then you just jumped in the car. Right. So I think that that's an important lesson, too, that it's okay to kind of just hold the fear and kind of be with it without pushing ourselves past where we're comfortable just yet.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Absolutely. And I'm grateful that my partner, because I think that helps too. Right. Your environment not making you do something before you're ready. Because we did have moments where he seemed frustrated because he wasn't fully understanding. Like, you kind of know how to drive. We have a car, like, in his brain, he's like, what's missing? What's the block? But there came a day where he came up to me and was like, you know, I don't want to make you feel like you have to do this thing because we have a car. Whatever block you're feeling is there for a reason, and I don't want to push that. So he was, like, apologetic because he had his moments where he's kind of like, girl, what's the issue here? So I'm sure that that makes learning hard. If you don't have an environment that supports however long it might take you to be developing these skills or if you don't develop them or you do, like, whatever the case may be, I'm grateful to have the space to take as long as I need to and make my mistakes. You know, I feel really affirmed because I went to pick him up from the airport the other day. And that's cool, too. To kind of contribute.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

To the ecosystem of our life. You know, it's like, now I can make those airport runs or whatever. You almost feel like an adult, like.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

And a driving adult now.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yeah. You know, this was a notch.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yes. Now, are there certain boundaries you put in place because you are still kind of developing. So, you know, maybe like, driving in bad weather or at night, like, are there certain things you're just like, okay, not yet.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Right. That's funny because we just talked about that. I am still not comfortable fully with night driving.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Okay.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Especially not if it's raining. I do live in the pnw if you know anything about it. It's a very rainy place. Especially what I guess our version of winter is more so just like rain, a rainy season. So it's like, you have to get comfortable with rain if you're going to be in this part of the country where it rains more than other parts. The other day I was on the highway and it started pouring, and I almost felt like God was like, okay.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Next, can you do those together?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

And so I was like, oh, my God. Okay. I've been learning by having to do it in a lot of ways. You can't prepare in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? You just have to do it. And so I have been put in those situations. But I jokingly told my friends the other day, like, whenever I have to do that rain, highway, nighttime combo.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

That'S next level.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

That's like AP driving.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So what I wish more people knew about, like, learning how to drive as an adult.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Like we've said, it's gonna be scary. A couple of people reached out to me saying they were grateful that I've been sharing because it's something they've had a block with as well and that they felt a lot of shame for. You know, and I think there is a lot of shame because you almost feel like, I don't know how to do this thing. And I think the biggest thing I'd say is it's not late. You know, a lot of us grew up in different circumstances. I'm sure you have your reason. Maybe you didn't have money for a car or like me, I didn't have money, but I also wasn't in a city that was accommodating for having a car. Like, we have our reasons for why we didn't develop these skill sets. And I think the biggest thing is to just forget that part. Just accept that part. Like, that just is what it is. I don't necessarily know how to help someone work around the shame of that, but I think for me, it's just the doing the baby steps to starting. Just tell yourself you want to do it. And like I did that day, just give yourself a to do list. Like, maybe just, I'm going to go to the market today and just buy my groceries instead of ordering them. You know what I mean? Like, give yourself one step, and you'll be surprised how that one step will feel so good and you'll be so proud and it'll inspire you just to, you know, keep adding more. And also doing it is on your own terms. Like I said, there's still a lot I'm learning, and I'm taking it very slow. There's no hack, there's no tips. It's just like, you just gotta get in that car and it's gonna be scary and you're gonna be trembling, but the only way to do it is to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

You talked about having your diffuser, your driving playlist. Are there other things that have you incorporated into, like, the ritual of driving that have made it, you know, a little bit more comfortable for you?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I feel like those are the only things I can say that I've done for the ritual of driving. That really helped me also. Just like, I am someone that can't have too much stuff around me when I'm nervous. Like, I can't have anything in the back seat, nothing in the seat next to me. Like, it's almost like I need space to think. So I get a little neurotic about, like, the state of the car when I have to get in it. And this might not be for everyone, but for me, I pray right before I drive off, I have to do it. I pray. I am just like, I talk to the car. Dustin and Sante make fun of me for this, but I talk to the car like, this is my homie. We are about to get on this road together, you know, and for me, it's like, we're coming together to do this thing, and I'm thankful to have a car to do this with, you know, And I'm always like, tell the car like, okay, we're going to be safe. I thank God for the ability to do this, the access, the resources, the bravery, the skill set, and tell them, you know, I just hope I get home safely. And really, just a lot of talking to myself, like, talking myself through it, and it don't matter how kooky you might look in the car, talking to yourself. I'm sure people pulled up like, is she good?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I love happening over there.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

What's going on there? You know, and do whatever. For a while, I didn't play music. It was like, I need silence. I need to breathe, I need to think. I need to see what I'm like. You know, how to see what you're doing. You almost need to hear. It's like you need all your senses to be clear. So it took me a while to get comfortable with music, and now music is actually a part of the comfort for me. So it's funny how as you keep developing skill sets, you'll need to kind of reconfigure what you need to do to support them. That then kind of cool to see, too. Yeah. Create that little universe in your car.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yes. Yeah. Create that ritual for yourself, whatever it looks like. Right. For you, it's the blankets and diffusers. For other people, it may be something different.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

You know what I mean? Some water. Like, just get it. Yeah. Get it going in there. As long as you're getting in there and driving, you know.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right, right. Whatever helps you get in the car. So there's the, like, mechanics of driving, but there's also all this other stuff associated with cars, right? Like, what's the tire pressure? Is the tank full? Like, what are these lights mean?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Pumping.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Has that, like, pumping gas? Yes. So has that added to your anxiety? Or do you feel like, okay, these are things I kind of have more control over?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

No, that's. Absolutely. I'm actually glad you mentioned that, because that is part of the thing of, like, feeling comfortable with your car. And a lot of what I did was that even before I started driving, getting on the road, I looked up, like, YouTube videos about my car. Literally, like, what do different lights mean? I looked up the reading manual. I know not everyone's gonna do that, but for me and how my brain works, it's like, if I'm gonna be in this machine, I need to know how to use this thing. I need to know what each light that is possibly going to kick on means. And once it does, what does that mean? Luckily for me, the only thing that's turned on is the tire pressure one, which, you know, wasn't as scary. I just. At first, I was like, oh, my God, is the car about to. Like, my tire's about to blow up in the highway. I didn't know exactly what that meant. Like, how much time do I have? What does that mean? And then you learn, too, that there's a lot of nails on the street that mess with your tires, which is like, where are all these nails coming from?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

All these nails coming from?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I'm so nailed. Is it, like, from around the city?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

It's trippy to me. So, you know, learning about that, I will say that's a little scary. Is like, the cars are very technologically advanced now. Right? Like, you have smart cars. And to me, that's a little scary, too. Like, to be so reliant on this screen. And the other day, my GPS screen went black for a couple seconds while I was on the highway, kind of like needing to know where I was going. My heart sank because I'm in the highway, literally relying on needing to know, needing this app to tell me what exit and what lane. And it kind of also taught me, like, hey, you also have to develop skills outside of the technological aspects of the car. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you can rely on them, but like, you see how the screen just went black, how it knocked you out. So now I try to park my car without relying on the cameras. I've gotten a lot of tips on driving places and not necessarily always relying on the GPS to show you every way to get there. You know, like having plan Bs. And it's a lot of work to be a driver.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

The cars are so, like, technologically savvy. Like, you're basically driving a computer. Right. And so it's not just like the gas, it's like, okay, if this thing goes out, like, what all can I do with this car now? Yeah. And having to have these like, backup plans for what happens when the computer crashes. So.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Absolutely. And just. And also, you know, the biggest thing too is like, particularly with parking. Right. A lot of us do rely on these cameras. I think it, it's a disservice to like, your own ability to kind of rely on technology to help you with everything. Like, I do think it's useful and I'm grateful because obviously it makes it a lot easier to see the car behind me on the screen. But also I just don't want to rely on it where, let's say my camera's not working one day, then I feel like I can't park. Like, I don't want to be that type of driver. And so it has been a learning of, like, being thankful for the technology, but also not allowing myself to be like a sitting duck without it, you know, and figuring out how to do that. If you want to be a great driver, it's like you're going to put in some work. Like, I get it now. I thought you got it and figured it out. They're just so high tech and it's like, interesting to try to keep up.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right, right. Yeah. And I think as a newer driver, like, your appreciation for it, I think is probably different than somebody who's been driving since they were 15.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Right, right. Well, almost like takes it for granted too.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Exactly.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I do this.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

But it's been cool. You know, I think for my mental health, that I think was like, really helpful this year to have this new goal. A lot of our goals are very work oriented. And when people ask you, you know, what do you have planned for the year? We normally are discussing, like, business or like creative projects or things that we want to tap into. But it felt kind of nice to have a goal that Like, I wasn't making money off of. This wasn't a business plan. It was, like, solely for me as a human. Like, just human development. And I kept saying, this is a big human development year for me, you know, And I don't think I have had years like that in a long time because I normally am so work oriented. And it felt kind of nice to just have this project that's just for.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Me.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

To elevate, I guess, my experience as a human being. And that's been really cool. It almost makes you be like, okay, what's next?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

No, like, what is your next human development goal? Is there like a driving goal that you have for, like, okay, I want to do a road trip or that's, you know, thinking.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yeah, like, I went on a road trip with a friend of mine, and it was cool to be able to contribute to the legs of it. You know, she's like, I'll take this part, you take that part. But I think it'd be really cool to be that person that just packs my bags, you know, throws them in the trunk and comfortably drives for six hours or eight hours. Like, I'm impressed. When I think of people driving for that long. The most I've done is maybe 45 an hour. You had to be so alert and so many things to consider for that long. So thinking of like six hours or three plus hour road trips, that's definitely next on the docket for me. Just like the endurance, I guess, of these skill sets and adding on. Like, we went camping and that was really cool to pack up the car and drive to the camp site, you know, and like, build our little worlds. And I'm just like, oh, this is so cool. Like, the access and freedom that being able to drive gives you has been like, my favorite part, because now I'm just looking for things to get into. Like, I'm next. What can I visit?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

What's the new adventure now?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

And I love that because that's a lot of why I moved here. You know, people saw Oregon was random and it was. But I was looking forward to the access to nature. I'm coming from New York, you know, concrete jungle. And so it's been cool to now finally have a skill set that can contribute to me enjoying why I moved out to Oregon.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So this may be another skill that you're not quite comfortable with yet, but what's been your experience with, like, backseat drivers? Right. So now that you have the experience of knowing what it's like to drive, what's it like for you? To have people in the back saying, like, dude, you know, do all this.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

I will say this. The only one I've had that I felt that way with was my partner because he's been in the car with me the most. I've only driven two of my friends.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Okay.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

And they were more so excited for me the whole time and being like, oh my God, look at you. That I can honestly say they didn't share their thoughts on maybe the turn being this way or maybe next time. Hey, none of that. It was just this pure excitement to see me in a different way, in a way that they've never experienced and in a way that they know that I have been working on and excited about. Now, my partner, who has been there a little longer, he can't help it.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

He's kind of the de facto driving.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Instructor at this point, so he's gonna say something. And we've actually had to have conversations about that. And I said to him, with the way that I learn, I'd prefer if you kept mental note. And then after, when we're done driving, I'm going to ask you always. Because I do love the feedback, but not while I'm driving. Yeah, that's the boundary I had to set. Because if I'm already nervous, right. And then you're telling me like, and you know, I don't know what it is about backseat drivers, but the way they say it always feel nerve wracking, even if they say it calmly. Just don't land well when you're already nervous. So we kind of set that boundary. Which has been really helpful because he'll take mental notes and then he'll tell me afterwards, like, with this turn here, you can't do that. Or the stops. Da, da, da. And it's like, okay, cool. And it's like, I'm out of the car so I can receive it fully as opposed to feeling triggered or like emotionally charged by you correcting me in real time when I'm already doing something I'm scared of, you know, and that's what works for me. And luckily he received that and we've been able to do that moving forward. Because I just panic when you're correcting me in real time. Like.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

It just makes me panic. It doesn't work for my personality. So I'm glad that we nipped that in the Buddha.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So what words of affirmation do you have, Fran, from maybe other new drivers or those who are still contemplating kind of getting behind the wheel?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

The biggest thing I'd say is Just talk yourself through what's kicking up for you. If you're feeling shame, then, like, have that combo with yourself while you're driving. Like, that really helped me. Like, I'm like, what? Like, when I got on the highway, I'm like, okay, you're so nervous right now. You're trembling, your shoulders are up, your breathing is short. What's the scariest part? And, like, saying it out loud while I'm in it for some reason helped me because it was like I was able to kind of pinpoint. I'm scared of merging. I'm scared that when I pull up, I'm not gonna be driving fast enough and the car behind me is gonna hit me, you know, and it's like kind of calling it out. And that allowed me to focus on the parts that scared me so that I can keep working on them to the point that, like, I better my skill set in whatever that fear point is. And then I get comfortable over time. Because now merging, because I knew it was a scary part, like, now I've been working on merging, like, focusing on the merging, focusing on the fear of the exits. The only way you'll know what the scary things are is by, like, saying them out loud and giving yourself an opportunity to be like, okay, and then I need to be put more energy into that. Like, then I gotta keep getting on the highway every day, and I gotta merge every day and I gotta exit every day. So I say, like, face it. That's the biggest thing. Just face it. It's going to be terrifying. The only way that you'll get better at it is by doing it. And use me as an example. I'm only, what, eight months in, but the difference in my quality of life in those eight months has been, like, amazing. Imagine me in five years. The five years are going to pass anyways. Right. You might as well get a skill set up in there.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

You know, like, you might as well. So hopefully that's helpful in some way.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah. Thank you for that, friend. I think it will be helpful for a lot of people. This has been such important assets that you've shared. I really appreciate you kind of, you know, talking about your experience. I do think, you know, especially at our age, like, I think it is hard to, like, admit these things that, like, you think everybody else does.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Right.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Can't bring about a lot of shame. And so I think every time we take the opportunity to throw the door open on this scary, secret thing, it lets a lot of other people in. Right. And so I really appreciate you being so open about your experience.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Absolutely. You know, people will throw terms around like late bloomer and it's like. And so you know.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

It's blooming at some point. Like I said earlier, we have are different reasons for why and so a lot of us are so quick to just feel so weird about things. And so like you said, kind of opening that door up. I'm hoping somebody listening to this was like, you know what, I can do this too. You know, I can do it. She's 42, just eight months in.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right. So where can people stay connected with you, Fran, with your website, where can we listen to the Friend Zone tell us how to stay in touch?

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Yeah. So I'm hey, friend. Hey. Across the board website handles been the same for many years. And don't forget to check us out on the friend zone podcast which drops every Wednesday. I'm on there with my co host Dustin Ross and Asante and we drop every week. We're nine years in so there's a lot to catch up on. If you're unfamiliar and those who do listen. Hey y'. All. Yeah, that's really it. That's where they can find me.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Thank you, Fran. We will be sure to include all of that in the show notes. Thank you for spending time with me today.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Thank you, Dr. Jo.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Of course.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Pleasure.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

It was such a pleasure hearing from Fran.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Her candor and vulnerability really helped categorize.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

An often overlooked experience for city dwellers and even our younger generations. Even amongst the TBG team, I learned there were dissenting attitudes around driving. To get more context into what informed.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Driving anxiety, I wanted to speak to a specialist.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Enter Dr. Jameka Moore. Dr. Moore is a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in treating anxiety disorders using evidence based treatment approaches. She treats a range of anxiety and co occurring disorders with a special interest in obsessive compulsive disorder, phobias and social anxiety. Today she gets in depth with me about the symptoms and solutions for driving anxiety.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Moore.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Hi, thank you and thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So I'd love to hear a little.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Bit more about your practice.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I know you work quite a bit with treating anxiety concerns.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Can you tell me more about your practice?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yes, so I specialize in treating OCD and anxiety disorders. I really enjoy doing exposure work. Most of my clients are presenting with an anxiety disorder. A lot of ocd, a lot of phobias. Social phobia is. That's what my specialty is. And I really enjoy doing this work.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I love that. I love that. So today we're going to be talking primarily around like driving anxiety. So is this something that you see.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Pretty frequently in your practice?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

You know, I will say OCD is primarily what I see, but I do get my driving phobia clients in because I do exposure work. And so people will come in and we have to run a protocol for them because they are experiencing anxiety on highways. A lot of avoidant behavior, not wanting to actually drive. So getting a lot of accommodation from family members and friends. I think that if I've seen an increase over the last couple of years, I don't think so, but I do think that it seems to be that there are populations of people who just aren't driving as much or they're delaying driving. Like they're just not getting their licenses. When we did, when we were 16, we were excited to go, but I'm noticing some delays in my college age students.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Really?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Now what would you attribute that to? Because you're right, like I do feel like there has always been this excitement of like freedom is associated with kind of having your. So maybe people don't need to. Yeah. Is that what you would think?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yeah, I think the technology definitely plays a role. I think that depending on your school program as well, some people don't actually have driving education as part of their core curriculum in high school. So parents might have to finance that separately, which also might delay getting a license because you just don't have it automatically built into your academic program.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Got it. Okay. Okay. So can you talk to me about like some of the things behind the scenes that really drive anxiety related to driving? What are some of the kind of underlying thoughts?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Well, I think first of all what's happening is people have a lot of catastrophic thoughts connected to driving. And so if you imagine worst case scenario you're going to get an accident, that you'll get injured, you will die, those really generate a lot of anxiety. And so you can understand why people would avoid driving if that's what your mind is telling you is going to happen. I also think that sometimes people have anxiety modeled for them. If you have a parent or family member who might have had some driving issues and a lot of anxiety, you might have a saw that as a child and have come to associate driving with anxiety because of how your parents actually modeled that for you. So I think you can see it in your thoughts. If you know other people who've gotten into car accidents, that can also create some anxiety for you, even if you yourself have been in an accident, you can have some trauma connected to that as well, because you've experienced a situational issue that has resulted in some anxiety.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

I appreciate you offering that, Dr. Moore.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

And I feel like this is always the tricky part with, like, treating anxiety is, you know, there is some rational thought. This is a serious vehicle. Like, you could cause damage to yourself or other people if you're not, like, responsible. But what is the line? Right? Like, how do you help clients differentiate what's a rational kind of like, okay.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

This is responsible versus something that is.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

More on the anxiety side of the spectrum?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

I think that's a really great question. We do what's called cognitive restructuring. And part of cognitive restructuring is helping clients identify those thoughts. And a specific technique would be identifying cognitive errors or distortions, because those are where we're going to see a lot of the more exaggerated, catastrophic thoughts. Before I do any course of exposure work, I actually start with psychoeducation on what is anxiety, and really doing, like, a metacognitive process, like thinking about thinking, so that clients can really understand how their thinking patterns will directly influence their mood and their actions. And so we do a thorough assessment of that first to be able to tell, like, okay, we want to have respect for driving because, you know, other people are on the road. And so there are some natural concerns that may arise. But typically when it got into the phobic zone, we're seeing some rigid, catastrophic thoughts that we want to challenge and help the clients create alternative thoughts.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

It's been some time since I took a driver's ed class, but I feel like maybe, and I don't know if they incorporate this into education for drivers now, like, helping to incorporate that mental health component.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

I think so too. And I don't know that they do that as well, because typically it's not a problem until it's a problem. Right, right. And so I think that handling some of that on the front end of, like, driving is scary. Want to validate your feelings, but we also want to help you avoid some traps that you may get into that can intensify anxiety symptoms, for sure.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So you talked about doing a lot of exposure therapy with your clients, which is kind of like a sub domain, I guess, under cbt. Can you tell us a little bit more about, like, CBT and maybe specifically about exposure therapy as it is related to driving?

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Okay.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

So generally speaking, cognitive behavioral therapy really helps you examine your thoughts to understand how they influence mood and behavior. And so the scene really works on thinking. And the B part is where you'll get your exposure therapy is how you want to make behavioral changes. And that could be anything from driving social skills. Now, as it pertains to exposure, you can't treat phobias without exposure therapy. It just doesn't work. And exposure therapy is directly confronting whatever that fear is if it's driving, if it's storms. And we create like a graduated plan in order to help clients work on their own specific zone. Because not all driving phobias would be created the same, right? Some people might be afraid of being a passenger in a car. Some people might be afraid of storms or highways or being in unfamiliar places. And so the plan is going to be specific to the individual and what they're actually struggling with. And we have steps, right? Like these little steps that we take. So, for example, let's say someone just has a fear of driving in general. We may start with a parking lot where no one's there, and they may have an exposure buddy that will come along with them, maybe to help them get there so that they're free to practice in that specific parking lot. And then we may go to a busy residential street or not so busy residential street. Next we may gradually go to a busier residential street, and then we can eventually work our way up to highways. And so it takes time. It takes a lot of patience, it takes a lot of compassion. But you see people grow in their confidence, and that's something that's amazing to watch because they start off anxious and then they get better over time. And the point I want to make about exposure therapy, this is not about anxiety reduction. Like, I don't want my clients to think that they're going to come to treatment and never experience any anxiety connected to whatever the phobia is. This is about learning to manage your anxiety while doing the thing, if it driving or conversation or test taking, right? So some people will come in and they're like, I don't want anxiety. Like, I just, to them, treatment is I never feel any anxiety at all. And I'm like, well, I'm probably not signing that treatment plan because we need to learn how to manage this. We're capable of handling our emotions, you know?

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because we know that, like, some anxiety is good, right? Like, some anxiety is what makes you focus so that you are understanding how to be responsible on the road. Or it's what gets us off on the couch when we know we need to be studying for a test, right? But it is learning how to manage it. And like, so that it doesn't take over your life.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Right. Trying to get people to function inside of that optimum zone of anxiety. Now, when people are experiencing panic, which happens, some people have panic attacks while they're driving, we do want to help them regulate to be able to bring that anxiety down to something that feels more manageable. But even still, there has to be a willingness to experience anxiety in order to get better. Like, that's just how it goes.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Yeah.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So I'd love to hear more about, like, what treatment looks like, because, you know, therapists who practice exposure therapy are not always in the office. Right. Like, we are not practicing at a parallel park in your office. Right. And so what does that look like? There's some kind of additional insurance you have, because if you're in a car with a client, talk to me through all of those things.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yes. So you definitely can do that kind of in vivo work directly hands on with your clients where you may be in the car. And you definitely want to make sure your insurance is on point with that because, you know, you have to keep yourself covered and protected. And so, yeah, some therapists will meet clients in the wild, if you will. Some will do assistance over the phone before they're getting into the exposure. But I will say, a lot of my clients exposure work is independent when it comes to driving. We work through a plan. They know exactly what the homework assignment is, and then they go do it on their own. Because with exposure work, what you want is repetition, and you want this to be happening frequently, like anything that you want to learn. You can't practice in September and not pick it up again until January. So they should be doing, like, exposures three, five times a week. And so because of that, it will be hard for a therapist to assist with all of that. And that's where exposure buddies come into play. Someone who can assist and be there to help, at least in those initial phases of treatment. However, I would fade out an exposure buddy over time because otherwise they become a safety behavior, like a safety person, a crutch that someone uses which could maintain the phobia. And so, yeah, people make decisions. Some outside of the office training, some coaching prior to sessions, But a lot of independent work.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Got it.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Okay. And so, you know, I wonder if you could walk us through maybe, like, what a sample treatment plan would be for somebody who maybe is anxious about driving on the highway. Right. Like anxious about merging and getting off the exit or getting onto an exit. Can you talk us through one of those?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yes. So I would initially start with just that assessment of understanding what that specific phobia is in order to create that plan for it. Then we do a course of anxiety psychoeducation, right? Like helping people understand what is anxiety, highlighting the specific symptoms, how anxiety is maintained. And then we go to the cognitive part, right? I want to teach some cognitive strategies so that they can look at those thoughts that increase the anxiety and maintain the anxiety. And then we go into the exposure plan. And so with a highway driver, I would even start with regular driving, right? So like, specifically, what is it about the highway? Is it merging? Is it faster speeds? And so we would start practicing some of those smaller exposures first so that they can get to a highway and say, okay, we need help merging. Let's find an area in your town where you have to merge. And they do that repetitively. And okay, if it's high speed, let's find an area in town where you have to account for these high speeds. And then eventually we work our way up to a highway that might not be as scary, you know, like something or something that mimics the highway. And then they'll practice that. And then we would work our way up to, like the big dog, which would be the highway. And initially, again, a therapy buddy would accompany them. And then through that repetition, eventually they'll do it solo.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Do you have any contact with the exposure buddy?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Absolutely. Because a lot of phobias are maintained through accommodation from family members and friends, and they think they're helping. You know, I'll always drive. I'm going to take over. Don't worry about it. You don't have to drive. And the phobia is like, yes, I get to stick around because this person is accommodating this. In order to stop that accommodation, I like to meet with the exposure body so that we can say, thank you, I know you love them. But now we're going to start fading out this support that you've been given and we're going to support in other ways. And also, like, this is the plan you're going to attend on this exposure, but by exposure 7, or depending on where the client is, we're going to fade you out and you can again support in different ways.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

More from our conversation after the break. Have you heard the news? Therapy for black girls is launching our community on Patreon. It's your space to be seen, heard and understood in an even more connected way. We're excited to bring you new segments.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Like, so my therapist said, where we.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Break down viral therapy, hot takes with real mental health professionals. TBG Community chats where we unpack trending pop culture topics that have us all in our feelings and opportunities to connect.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

With other sisters all over the world.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Sign up now at therapyforblackgirls.com joinpatreon for all the details about what we're planning and to be the first to know.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

When the doors are open. We can't wait to see you inside.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

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[HPV Vaccination PSA Speaker]

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[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

Stop.

[HPV Vaccination PSA Speaker]

Stop right here or get DMs about what's for dinner. You may be experiencing tween milestones for your son or daughter. These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.

For most, HPV clears on its own, but for those who don't clear the virus, it can cause certain cancers later in life.

Embrace this phase. Help protect them in the next.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Ask their doctor today about HPV vaccination brought to you by Merck.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So let's talk more about the support system. So you've already talked about like maybe they could be an exposure buddy but also need to be mindful that they are not Doing too much accommodating so that the person never challenges themselves. What other things would you say to family and friends around how to support a friend or a loved one who may be having some anxiety about driving?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yeah, I always like to say, meet people where they are. I think we forget a simple question to just say, how can I support you? Right. Are there phrases that you want me to say or things that you don't want me to say? Because people get triggered a lot when their anxiety is high. And sometimes someone will say the wrong thing that they think is supportive and it's not. So here are safe words here, words of encouragement that you will, you know, be happy to hear during these moments. And here's our steer clear list where you don't want me to say these things to you.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

That's it.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Reminding them of the skills. Like, sometimes it's helpful to say, I know you've been working hard and you got this. Just remember your skills. You know, you can get through it. Again, some people might not like that, but some people might find that to be really grounding. Like, right, I am working on this. I do have skills. And just being positive and encouraging. People can overcome phobias. And I think, like, life can get in the way sometimes, too. And so you're trying to learn how to feel more comfortable on the road. You have life hitting you. And I think sometimes just having someone say, you know, you got this and you can. You can get through this, I see you working hard, you know, just stay the course could be very helpful.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Yeah, so you mentioned something, and I hadn't thought about this, but it does make sense because I also am, like, anxious about driving in the rain or, like, you know, when there's a big storm. But you also talked about, like, the need for repetition. And we know there's not, like, necessarily a storm all the time. What does the treatment plan look like when it is something that you're anxious about? Like a storm that you can't necessarily predict for?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

We can look for, okay, what is it about the storm? Is it that it's dark? Is it, you know, you can try to recreate some of those situations because ultimately, remember, this is about anxiety management. At the end of the day, people are really responding to the fact that they're anxious and they're making negative predictions about what can happen. So we don't necessarily need a storm in order to work on that part. All we need is anxiety and the ability to do some cognitive restructuring and reframing. And then when that storm hits, it's like, okay, this is go time for some people. It's even the possibility that a storm might happen. Right. Again, making predictions. And so that's why the cognitive restructuring part is helpful too, because it'll help them address the thoughts that maintain and contribute to the anxiety, even in the absence of the specific stressor.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Got it.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

I guess I'm wondering how manageable are the steps, because it feels like there's a lot of things that I'm thinking about and I'm also like, wanting to be focused on the road. So talk to me about how are people practicing this? How much happens before you even get in the car versus what you're doing in real time?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yeah, a lot's going to happen before you get in the car. And so when I said I start with that course of doing some cognitive work first, that's a lot of sessions that will go into that. So that's just not like a one session thing. This is repetition so that they can learn alternative ways of thinking. Like those negative thoughts don't have to 100% disappear. And sometimes they won't because they're pretty well conditioned and they're automatic. So what we want are healthier thoughts or more reasonable thoughts to sit alongside those. And eventually, through the repetition of doing the cognitive restructuring and practicing those alternative thoughts, you can get some shift to where like, okay, this is my primary way of thinking about this. And those catastrophic thoughts can still be there, but I may no longer engage them anymore. I don't get hooked on them anymore. I realize that I can have a more balanced thought. So in order for us to have that way of thinking become a new way of thinking, we have to have practice. And so that course of treatment is its own little lane. And that's definitely happening before someone gets in the car, because if you tried, you could. I mean, I'm a big proponent of behavioral treatment. You can try to skip that stuff and get straight in the car. But my clients with driving phobia said they really appreciate it, the cognitive work first because it helped them feel more grounded and they could catch themselves being like, every time I drive, I'm going to die. And then they're like, okay, that might not be true. I say that to myself and I'm realizing it's not true. And even that can help alleviate some of the anxiety because they aren't activating themselves as much anymore by hooking on negative automatic thoughts.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So you mentioned, you know, one of the underlying concerns related to driving anxiety sometimes is that there has been a Previous accident. Accident, Right. Or maybe they were driving or in.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

The car with someone else.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Is there the same, like, cognitive restructuring.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Work that's done with somebody who's had.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Like, a previous accident, or does it look differently?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Same thing. Right. They have evidence now to support that driving can be scary because they've been in an accident. But the predictions that they're making are just saying it's going to happen again. Right. They're overgeneralizing because it happens one now. It's always going to happen. We still want to work with those thoughts even if someone has had a car accident. But we do want to be respectful of the fact that they have had that experience. And maybe it coded as a trauma, maybe it didn't. But we want to tell our clients that even if you've had negative experiences, it doesn't mean that the treatment doesn't work for you or that you're going to be necessarily different than someone who hasn't had those experiences. There's hope and there's relief for those clients as well.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Are there relaxation or other mindfulness kinds of techniques that you pair with some of the cognitive stuff to help the clients manage the anxiety?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yes, there's mindfulness and relaxation techniques. I think that's specifically useful for clients who maybe have panic disorder, presenting with their driving phobia because they're having panic attacks. And so there has to be some way to work through that panic attack to alleviate those symptoms. But I kind of take a different approach with relaxation and mindfulness exercise when it comes to phobias, because I take the approach that we need to confront and manage the anxiety. Sometimes if you make clients think that they have to always be in some sort of like, yoga breathing, I think that does a disservice to the clients because it conditions this idea that they need to have no or low anxiety. I take the approach that it's okay if the anxiety is there. We're learning to live with anxiety versus constantly needed to be in this state where it's low. And the reason why, if that breathing doesn't work, clients will panic, their symptoms will go up because they're like, I expected this to work. I'm breathing four in, four out, and it's not working. And I'm like, okay, but that's again, if you're making symptom reduction, the only point of the treatment, you do a disservice to clients. I think big picture, yes, we want symptom reduction, but if we're telling clients that they have to have no or low Anxiety, that's not a long term strategy because there is no anxiety free life. And so I'd rather them expect it to show up and be like, okay, I can drive and be anxious, I can talk and be anxious. And then once they adopt that mindset of like, willingness and acceptance, that also helps them get to more symptom reduction because you're learning how to live with anxiety versus that expectation that it has to go away.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

So I wonder if you can talk more about some of the setbacks that you see people have when they're working.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Through the treatment plan.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

It feels like you've come back to this one multiple times. This idea that there needs to be no anxiety. Right. And like having to kind of reroute them. Are there other things that you have found that show up that you need.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

To help clients think through the commitment to do exposure? People have so many things going on in their life that they'll just be like, work went late, sorry, I didn't do my exposure work this week. This happened. I didn't get a chance to do exposure work. So it's that buy in to the treatment in and of itself is like, if you're going to choose to do exposure therapy, you have to kind of be accountable for yourself to make sure that you are actually going to be able to get the, the treatment done. And so scheduling, like having people put it in their calendar as if it's a work meeting that you cannot miss. Because if you are not doing exposure, you should not do an exposure. And it, you know, then you're in treatment and you're like, well, it's not working. Well, it's not working because you aren't doing that component. And then it just continues to feed into that cycle of avoidance. Sometimes people don't do the exposure homework because they actually just want to avoid it. They want to get better. But it's scary work. And so trying to rectify those two things and constantly doing accountability checks.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Is there anybody you would say is not a good candidate for exposure work?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

I would say in part of my assessment, I would look for deficits to see is this more pure anxiety with some fear around driving, or do you need to actually get some skills first before you, you know, are starting this course of treatment? Right. Because if you do legitimately have some deficits, I would recommend a driving course first just to be able to like get those skills up. I wouldn't feel super confident doing exposure therapy for someone who's in my office saying, well, also, I just don't know how to drive because it still wouldn't work well.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Right. You know, you make you bring up an interesting point because I think that that is also related to other skill based anxieties. Right. Like I'm thinking about like public speaking or you know, like sometimes our anxiety is fueled because we don't know enough. Right. Or there, there's other work that we need to do beyond like the therapy office that can help to maybe reduce our anxiety.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Yeah, absolutely. Like if you are, it's always identify the deficits. Even if like, let's say someone's driving and we're doing an assessment and they're like, I don't like driving at night. It scares me. One thing I want to cross check first. How's your vision? Do you need to make a doctor's appointment first to make sure your vision is on point and you're actually not having blurred vision while you're driving and that's enhancing the anxiety. And so it's always looking for deficits, looking for medical conditions first so we can rule that out and feel more confident in moving forward with the treatment plan.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Is there anything related to the work that you do with driving phobias that you think is important to cover?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Biggest points? Learning how to live with the anxiety and not coming to therapy thinking that your anxiety is going to 100% disappear. Because you don't need your anxiety to 100% disappear in order to be able to drive. You can learn how to work with it. I think that would be one of the biggest takeaways from this.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Perfect. Well, this has been incredibly helpful, Dr. Moore. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Can you tell us where can we.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

Stay connected with you? What is your website as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

My website is Dr. Jamikamore.com and you can find me on Instagram @jam session. That's J A M E S S I N D. Perfect.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

We'll be sure to include that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Dr. Moore.

[Dr. Jameka Moore (Clinical Psychologist)]

Thank you.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

Between Fran's anecdotal accounts and Dr. Moore's professional analysis, there were so many gems and how anxiety informs so much of.

[Therapy for Black Girls Co-host]

How we engage with the world.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

I'm so happy they were both able to join us and really drive home. Pun intended. The message of how to overcome your anxiety. To learn more about Fran and Dr. Moore, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com session 407 and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. Did you know you can leave us a voicemail with your questions for the podcast? If you want to suggest movies or books for us to review or even give thoughts around topics you'd like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. You just might feature it on a future episode. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist [e-mail] directory. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women with flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve Card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the Club. At select airports nationwide, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Vank NA Member FDIC member subject to credit approval. Terms apply.

[Fran (Guest, wellness advocate and Friend Zone podcast co-host)]

This is an iHeart podcast.