AT&T Sponsor Voice (3:36)

The best kind of help is the kind you don't have to ask for, like your friend pulling up on move in day with a truck, a speaker.

Anna Gifty (3:43)

And snacks ready to go.

AT&T Sponsor Voice (3:44)

Well, that's the energy you get with AT&T's new guaranteed if there's ever a network interruption, they make it right by giving you credit for a full day of service. Proactively credit for Fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guarantee for full details. AT&T connecting Changes Everything.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (4:19)

When it comes to marginalized intersectional identities, Black women and women of color are no stranger. But if we zoom out, what does that experience look like across systems, access and paychecks? Today, I'm pleased to be joined by economist, advocate and author Anna Gifty. She's here to talk about her new book, the Double How Women of Color Are Overcharged and Underpaid, a powerful, data driven exploration of the hidden costs of being both a woman and a racial minority in today's economy. During our conversation, we dive into the concept of the double tax, the systemic forces that undervalue women of color, and what it means to work towards an economy that truly works for everyone. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession. Or join us over in our Patreon Channel to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (5:22)

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (5:24)

Anna.

Anna Gifty (5:24)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm extremely honored. This platform has connected with me, with my therapist and so I'm just so, so grateful for y' all existing and and just being here for Black women.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (5:37)

Oh, thank you so much. I always enjoy hearing that.

Anna Gifty (5:40)

Thanks so much. I appreciate you.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (5:42)

Yeah, so I really want to dive into your work, Anna, because you have coined the term double tax, which refers to the compounded cost of being both a woman and a Racialized minority. Can you tell me how you coined that term and then how your research really shaped the way the book turned out?

Anna Gifty (5:58)

Okay, as you just noted, yes, the double tax is the compounded cost of racism and sexism. And I think that black women have sort of been ahead of the game on this front for decades. So I like to say that the double tax is sort of the quantification of misogynoir fully realized. And so for me, I think that this book and the research that came about to inform this book was really a product of sort of my own training in my PhD program. So I study policy and economics. I'm a PhD student at Harvard. And a lot of the questions I ask surround race, gender, and the economy. But a lot of times when you're digging into the research, digging into the literature, they almost always focus on either race or gender. So there's a lot of really great work on gender, gender equality, how we make things more equal. But then those studies that are about women don't actually cut across race. And so you're not sure which women are actually benefiting from the things that folks are trying to intervene on or even what types of inequities that they're trying to unearth. And so this book really was inspired by the lack of, you know, language around this in the literature, but also the even, like, just bringing the literature that we know that's already touching on this to the forefront, since it tends to not get a lot of attention because the folks who are doing that tend to look like you and me.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (7:24)

Okay, So I am honestly surprised, Anna, that, like, right now we are still having a lack of focus on what it means to be a minority and be a woman. Right. Like, it feels like, okay, surely there are enough people who are doing this work where we're getting much more research there. But you're saying even still, there is still a lack of research and a lack of people kind of doing this work.

Anna Gifty (7:47)

Absolutely. So I think that qualitative researchers, folks who interview people, have done such an exceptional work, exceptional job, excuse me, of documenting people's experiences and people's stories and how those stories sort of inform, you know, how we think about inequality, both through race and gender and sometimes even through class. But I would argue that the quantitative side of things is still quite lacking. There's a lot of black women economists who have done a great job of sort of digging into the numbers when it comes to intersectionality, but it's actually not something that you see widespread, namely because of who's Doing the work, Right? So economics is notoriously white, it's notoriously male, and it's almost always, you know, it leans towards, like, higher socioeconomic status. And so the folks who are asking these types of questions that would inform the discourse, would inform the policies, just don't look like the people who this particular thing called the double tax, even applies to. And so, again, this is sort of an attempt to bring together what we already know and to hopefully inspire other folks to ask questions, too.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (8:51)

So you interviewed over a hundred women for your book. What were some of the maybe most surprising or maybe even heartbreaking stories that you found as a part of your research?

Anna Gifty (9:00)

Yeah, and so, one, I. I got to give credit to the folks who helped out with this because I'm a quantitative scholar, leaned on my qualitative scholar colleagues. And so shout out to Kaylee, shout out to Alexa, who really kind of took the reins and making sure that we had cultural competency when we were talking to these women so they could speak freely. And I would say, like, some of the insights that really shocked me. Maybe I'll start with the first one. What inspired the book? So I remember when we were getting ready to sort of pitch this book to publishers, and when you're doing that for folks who don't know, you have to write your first chapter. And so I decided to talk to a group of black high school girls about what costs they are facing right now as they're navigating adolescence. And I thought that the costs that they would bring up were costs that I kind of dealt with when I was growing up, which was, maybe you're spending a lot of money on makeup, but you can't find the right shade or just thinking about other things related to that. But funnily enough, the cost that I've dealt with, the ones that you've dealt with, Dr. Joy, and even the cost that, like, my mother have dealt with, they were reflected in the answers that these young girls were saying. I said, so what is most costly for y'? All? And they said, hair. And the fact that hair is still a cost that young Black girls in 2025 have to think about, despite all the work that's been done to really destigmatize black hair, to normalize natural hair, to celebrate our curls and our coils. That made me, like, okay, so, like, I don't want my nieces who are now, you know, three and four to have to deal with this in 10 years. Right? So I think for me, that gave a new sense of purpose for why A book like this needs to exist, because I think part of it, too, is that these costs that were being illuminated by the women that we were speaking to are costs that are being illuminated by women who are often forgotten in conversations about women. So this is something I talked about recently online, where I think people in power think about womanhood very narrowly. And we are seeing that in a lot of different ways, right? The dimensions of identity that they're focused on, or maybe like one or two dimensions of identity. And I think that that then means that the women who most of the world is made up of, in terms of women in general, are forgotten. Their stories are not actually illuminated. And I would say another thing that kind of shocked me, at least with the hair chapter, is that we also had an opportunity to talk to Asian American women. And I was really surprised to find out that they also go through the same trial and error process that we do through products. So products that are advertised for white women don't actually work for their hair either. And so they have to kind of go through similar processes of just trying to figure out what works well. And then I think the other story that really comes to mind here that really shocked me was a story about homeownership. So one of the first questions that we asked, you know, the two groups of women, we interviewed black women and we interviewed white women. We asked them, you know, what percentage of people, you know, own their homes. And so I think for. For black women, it was somewhere between 10% to about maybe 80 or 90%. For white women, it was somewhere between, like, I want to say, 40%. I might be getting that wrong, but up to about 100%, right? So everybody they know owns a home. And I think that the disparity there was quite striking. This idea that, like, where even wealth begins is fundamentally shaped by our networks, our upbringing. And these are things that are not talked about out in the open, especially as it relates to women's lives. And so I think that this book, what I love about it is it doesn't just talk about the numbers, which I think a lot of folks get maybe exposure to through studies and even sometimes news articles, but it really brings those numbers and marries them with the stories to say that these are not just, like, coincidences, these are patterns.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (13:01)

I appreciate the story around the cost of hair. And when you first mentioned, and I was like, oh, are they spending a lot of money? Because they want to, like, change it up a lot, and like, oh, I want to add some fun new colors, or now I want braids. But it sounds like the cost is really around, like trying products and thinking that a certain product will work for your hair, and then it doesn't. So it's really still a lack of products for our hair.

Anna Gifty (13:22)

100%. You know, one study finds that there's a difference in how leading brands sell hair for straight hair and hair for coily hair by the ounce. So it's like a 20 cent difference. That 20 cent difference can become a matter of dollars when it comes down to it, right? Because those ounces, if you multiply them by 17 ounces, right, it becomes a certain amount of money that we're spending on shampoo and conditioner. We're just talking about shampoo and conditioner. Not to mention that we know that there's work that shows that folks who are of African descent, we go through differences in how our hair sort of sheds or is damaged easily by the environments that we're in. And so we're also having to just get more products just to ensure that our hair remains healthy. And I think what people don't know, right, this is something that I dealt with when I was growing up, and I imagine that you dealt with too, is like, just how much we spend on our hair just to kind of conform to the beauty standard, right, or to ensure that we are not penalized for looking unprofessional. I don't think people really know how much black women are spending on their hair. For example, these braids that I have in right now, gorgeous. However, the way it turned my pocketbook, right, like I'm spending 350 to $400. And that's on the lower end. Folks I know can spend upwards of $700 on their hair. If you're buying wigs, you're spending a good chunk of change just to look good, right? And the gag of the matter is, like, if you decide I'm gonna rock my natural curls, if you decide I'm gonna rock my natural hair, depending on the texture of your natural hair, right, you might get penalized within the workplace or within the schoolyard about that. And this idea that this constant policing over black women and black girls looks, and that actually does come at a cost, not just for, you know, maybe the parent or the guardian that's watching the black girl, but also for the black girl herself. I think one thing that was extremely heartbreaking to hear and was also backed up by data that we saw from the UK and from the US is that black girls are still being critiqued for their hair texture. And what I say in the book is that if we decide to dye our hair purple and a white girl decides to dye her hair purple, the white girl's called quirky. But our economic status is now called into question. Oh, maybe she's coming from an unkempt home. Maybe people don't think that she was raised right, even though we're still trying to express ourselves. And so for me, this is where the double tax shows up, at least in the cost of presentability and beauty in general.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (16:03)

Yeah. And, you know, the cost in terms of, like, the money, but also the cost in terms of time. Like, I would imagine the braids that you have, that looks like a six to eight hour at least.

Anna Gifty (16:12)

How did you know that's exactly right? Girl, I was sitting there and I said, are we done? And they were like, you asked for small parts, and I said, I got you, but, like, I have somewhere to be. But that's the point. Right. And I think nowadays we're seeing people, you know, when they're in the braiding chair, they'll be on their laptops. But I remember back in the day, like, you weren't really expected to do that. So it's not just that you're losing eight hours in the day, you're losing eight hours of wages, potentially. You gotta take the day off, and they're not gonna give you a paid day off to get your hair done.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (16:52)

Right.

Anna Gifty (16:53)

Yeah.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (16:53)

So something else you mentioned, Anna, and this is maybe related to your work, but maybe not. You talked about, like, the questions around, like, home ownership. And for so long, homeownership has kind of been the gold standard in terms of what it looks like to build wealth. Is that still the case? Like, are we still seeing, like, home ownership is, like, one true way to wealth kind of in our communities?

Anna Gifty (17:13)

That's such a great question. I think there's a. There's a couple answers to that. So there's two black economists called Derek Hamilton and Sandy Darity, and they said something along the lines of. A lot of people say that homeownership is the way to build wealth, but what the actual reality is is that homeownership is actually the signal that you can build wealth, essentially. Right. And I think this is actually a very good point, because if you look at the difference in the wealth portfolios between black families and white families, white families have a much more diversified portfolio. They have stocks, they have investments, they have homes that they own. They also have other properties that they own as well. Whereas with black folks, almost all of our wealth is tied up in our homes. One of the most shocking statistics that I came across in the research was from the National Realtors Association. So what they do is they do like a snapshot report of who's a homeowner in a given year. So we're talking about 2024. If you think about the number like, or the. The share of new homeowners that were black. Right. Amongst all Black homeowners in 2024, 49 of Black homeowners were new, or home buyers, rather new new home buyers, first time home buyers. Right. 49. That means that out of all the black people who bought homes in 2024, half of them were buying homes for the first time. Okay, now look at white folks. This is the number that kind of radicalized me a little bit. You look at white folks in 2024, out of all the white folks that bought homes, only 20% of them were first time home buyers. That means 80% were buying their second, third, fourth, or fifth home. I think when we talk about homeownership and whether or not it is the right way to build wealth, I'm not saying it's the wrong way, because I don't think that's what the evidence suggests entirely. But I think what we do know is that having other streams of wealth or having other wells to like, to draw from makes a difference. And again, just to kind of bring in the numbers, the Federal Reserve bank of St. Louis finds that, you know, for every dollar of wealth a white guy has, white women have 78 cents. Black women, take a guess. Out of the sense. How many, how many, how many do you think we have?

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (20:00)

45.

Anna Gifty (20:01)

You said 45.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (20:03)

Mm.

Anna Gifty (20:05)

Go down. Oh, wow. 34, eight cents. Yeah.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (20:16)

Oh, my gosh.

Anna Gifty (20:17)

This is why I think this book is really important.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (20:19)

Yeah.

Anna Gifty (20:20)

Because I think a lot of times when people talk about, oh, gender inequality or gender equality, they're not including stories about black women, they're not including stories about poor women, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that you cannot have a full, holistic conversation about how we achieve gender equality without talking about racial inequality, without talking about class inequality. And so to your question about whether or not homeownership is still the best way to build wealth for black folks, it's a pathway to build wealth. But you also have to recognize too, that there are other pathways that other groups are building wealth through. And if you can gain access to those pathways, great. But the reality of the matter is, what we know from the data is that even if black folks saved as much as white Folks, you know, was able to make as much as white folks, even if the education distribution was aligned in such a way that we were being educated at the same level of white folks. There's only one policy that actually closes this racial wealth gap that we've been talking about for so many decades and so many centuries, and that is reparations. Anybody who's having a conversation about anything else outside of that is not having a serious conversation. So I can tell you to go buy a home. And I. And sure, that's one way that black folks are building wealth in this country. I will say, though, that because you're at the mercy of the housing market, if your wealth only lies within your house, what happens with the housing market will affect your wealth. And so you might want to diversify. But I also say that the reality is that there are historic wrongs that absolutely need to be righted, and that is something that you should be pushing for in the kinds of people you elect, the kind of policies that you support, et cetera.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (22:06)

So these numbers have never been great, but I'm sure you've been paying attention to Ana, the 300,000 reported black women who have been impacted by layoffs. Now, this was not, of course, the stat when your book was out, but how are you making sense of this in the, you know, the larger landscape of, like, the things that you write about in the kind of work that you do?

Anna Gifty (22:24)

Listen, this is the double tax. So the double tax says, you know, we have a compounded cost of racism and sexism. And what this means is in the book, there are two chapters that I really want folks to focus on when they're thinking about what's happening right now with 300,000 and counting, by the way, because that was a number, I believe, back in June or May. Right. And counting. There's a double tax in career choice, and there's a double tax in career path. Let me break it down. The double tax in career choice means that black women, minority women, women in general, are barred from certain career paths. Right? And so we see this in the data among the top 10 highest paid career paths as of 2019. You know, white women have proportional representation, meaning that their representation is equal to the nationwide share in about three of those careers. Black women, Latina women, Native women, zero. Right. Top, highest paying. As for white men, all 10, it's actually they're overrepresented in all of those types of career paths. We're talking about physicians, we're talking about engineers, folks in tech, et cetera. Among the Lowest paid career paths. Black women have proportional representation or nationwide share in 8 out of the 10. What does this mean? That means that the types of careers that black women tend to fall into, not by choice, if I'm being quite honest. Right. This is occupational segregation. You're funneled into certain career paths because other career paths are barred from you for racist and sexist reasons. That means that when the economy goes through a crisis, the jobs that organizations, companies and different types of entities see as expendable oftentimes are these low paying jobs, these jobs that lack benefits, these jobs that lack protections, these jobs that don't have unions behind them. And so that means that when they need to offload people from their payroll, they're going to the folks that they are addressing first. The folks who are low paid, the folks who are low wage. Right. The folks who lack benefits. And a lot of times those individuals are black women, disproportionately. So if we're even thinking about the types of sectors that tend to have those types of protections around them, you know, public sector definitely has great health insurance, that sort of thing. But what I want to note here is that what's happening is a targeted effort at laying off the federal workforce. And black women, again, are overrepresented amongst federal jobs, right. As well as local and state jobs within the government. And so once again, if we're thinking about who's seen as expendable in the workplace, black women oftentimes are falling to jobs that people are seeing as expendable. And so we're the first to be pushed out. The second aspect of this is the double tax in career path. So there's data that shows that black women are the least likely to be promoted and the most likely to experience turnover within the private sector. We don't have a lot of data on the public sector just yet, but let's just use the private sector as an example. What does this mean? This means that if we're already facing barriers during the good times, what happens during the bad times, right. These things just become worse for us. And so what I often tell people is that black women are a very important economic indicator that for some reason people keep ignoring. Right? Like what happens to us first is coming to everyone next. Another way to put this is that we are the shock absorbers of a future economic crisis for everybody else. And so if something is hitting us, you shouldn't turn away and be like, ah, that's just affecting those minority women over there. You should be paying attention and figuring out, wait, why is that thing coming in that direction? Why are they experiencing that? And the reason I say that is because black economists back in 2008 said the same thing. They said if folks were paying attention to black and brown folks, they would have seen the 2008 financial crisis coming from a mile away. We saw this with COVID as well. At the very beginning of COVID black women's unemployment shot up to 17% right before everybody else started losing their jobs. Why are we waiting right, for a nationwide crisis when there's a crisis happening to a part of our nation? And that's how I think folks can use the double tax to better understand why 300,000 black women are suddenly leaving the labor force. And they're not leaving the labor force. They're being pushed out.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (27:19)

More from our conversation after the break.

AT&T Sponsor Voice (27:26)

There's something special about folks who come through without being asked. Like your coworker surprising you with your favorite coffee just because. Or your friend handing you the ox cord the moment you get in the car. No debate, no fight, just positive vibes. That kind of love. It just hits different. And that's exactly the energy AT&T is on with their new guarantee. If there's ever a network interruption, AT&T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. No calls, no emails, no jumping through hoops. It's just handled. It's like the universe saying, I got you. Except this time it's not the stars aligning, it's your network. And let's be real, that connection is everything. Whether you're holding down the group chat, checking in on your parents. Scrolling TikTok your network's gotta come through. And if there's a problem, AT&T is on the case. No stress, no drama, just real backup when it counts. Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more, or wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guarantee for full details. AT&T connecting changes everything.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (28:37)

Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women with flexible online formats. NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you're booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I travel somewhere, I'm typically determined to try the best local pizza and find the best spa experience. With Chase Sapphire Reserve you have access to everything from private dinners hosted by award winning chefs to VIP treatment at the most sought after events. Chase Sapphire Reserve allows you to take advantage of one of a kind experiences while earning three times points on dining worldwide. No matter your destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase sapphire reserve@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit.

WashablesOfSofas Sponsor Voice (30:08)

Approval terms apply there's nothing like sinking into luxury. @washablesofas.com you'll find the Annabe sofa which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only 6, the stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop now@washablesofas.com Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (31:14)

It feels like that's related to the stats around Black women's entrepreneurship, right? Like a lot of times black women become entrepreneurs because of like force, right? Like you need to support yourself and your family and so but then we know entrepreneurship is also not a easy path. So how does the double tax show up in entrepreneurship?

Anna Gifty (31:33)

So the double tax shows up in entrepreneurship even in the way that funding is allocated. So I don't know if folks know this but like venture capital is one of the most like it's the least diverse or among the least diverse like fields especially in finance, right? Folks can get money just because they are attractive white men. That's the study by the way, right? Like if you're an attractive white guy, you're a lot more likely to get funding from a vc. I think what we see from the data and I'm summarizing here, is even amongst the funding that's allocated for diverse founders, the majority of that funding actually does not go towards women of color. It goes to white women, right? And this is actually a very important distinction, because when folks start saying, well, we don't like dei, we don't like diversity, oh, you thought you were targeting black women. You actually are not. You're targeting white women, most likely, right? So in entrepreneurship, we definitely see that. And I would even say, like we quoted a story from the New York Times of a black woman who owns a hair salon, right? A lot of folks complain about the rising cost of getting your hair done. But I think if we actually look at the other side of that, too, from an entrepreneurial perspective, Black women are already facing barriers, as we just noted, in the kind of funding they get, the kind of even just like getting a building to have your business in. People don't trust that you can make the rent, right? Because they look at your skin color, they look at your gender, they say, I don't think this person has the financial means to do this. It affects lending, right? It affects the kind of interest rate you might get. We see this in homeownership, but I imagine that also happens in property ownership as well. And so with that in mind, she was mentioning that there's higher expectations that black entrepreneurship, at least in hair care and other beauty areas, have to deal with. And I would imagine that this is also true, just broadly speaking, where as a black woman entrepreneur, you're having to work three times as hard to get a crumb of return, right? A crumb of return. And maybe you can ride the wave of people being somewhat interested in black entrepreneurship or black women for a time. But as we know, stuff like that can be fleeting, Right? I've mentioned recently that even folks interested in this book, I've noticed that, you know, because this book is not just exclusively about gender, people are throwing it into a category. They're saying, oh, it's about race. And so we'll talk about it during Black History Month. We'll talk about it when we're talking about black folks, even though we're talking about women still. So these sort of axes of oppression that black women tend to lie in means that we're also dealing with what those axes bring about when it comes to barriers to entrepreneurship, owning a business, having a successful business. And so I got to give a shout out to Ashley Wisdom. That's my girl. She founded Health in her Hue. She's done a historic feat by, you know, raising one million plus for that organization. The fact that that's even a historic feat in 2025, that tells you that we have a long ways to go and how the double tax is showing up even today.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (34:39)

So something else that you write in your book that I think is really important to talk about is pathological productivity. So this idea that you have to kind of work hard and like, that is the way that we kind of get ahead is by we're always the one volunteering for things. And, like, all of that. Can you talk more about what this term means and how this actually shows up for us in the workplace?

Anna Gifty (34:58)

Yeah, for sure. I think that. So I don't know if folks know this, but, like, according to Lean in and the women in workplace report, very 100 men that are promoted to managers. White women are promoted. Like, it's like 80, 82 women. 82 white women are promoted. 99 Asian women are promoted. Right. And only 54 black women are promoted. How does that tie into what Dr. Joy just asked? If you work in the workplace as a black woman, especially the corporate workplace, you know that you're probably being asked to do 25 million things that are not in your job description, Right. And so you're busting your butt to satisfy whatever standard is being implemented in your context. But the reality is that might not actually be translating into whether or not you're seen as a productive member of the workplace. And a lot of times this is reflected in your performance reviews. So you might get a performance review. And this is something we saw with women in general, that it's just not actionable. What they're saying is more like personality description. Oh, that person was nice. I think we have folks saying, like, oh, they were described as goofy in the workplace. I don't know what goofy got to do with your productivity. Okay. But, you know, this is the kind of stuff that people would be receiving as women. And then black women receive the same type of feedback, except with a negative twist. Oh, she was bossy. She was too assertive. She was negative or whatever. And this is on top of you doing unpaid labor. So not only is the labor that you're doing to help the workplace not being rewarded, but then when the performance reviews come, they start to reflect things that aren't even actionable. You don't even know where to improve, and you don't know how this is factoring into whether or not you're being seen as a productive person within the workplace and if it's factoring into your promotion overall. And so I would say that's kind of how that pathological productivity shows up for black women in particular. We're expected to do twice as much only to receive half as much. And at the end of the day, we don't even really get credit for the kind of work that we're putting forth, as reflected by our low promotion rates and how we're characterized within the workplace.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (37:26)

Something we haven't talked about, but I think would be important to talk about, is that we know that black women are also often like caregivers in our families. Right? So not only are we having to show up in the workspace, but also in our family lives. Right. It feels like it's more than a double tax there, Right? Like there's the double tax of being woman and black, but also now attacks of maybe taking care.

AT&T Sponsor Voice (37:47)

There's something special about folks who come through without being asked. Like your coworker surprising you with your favorite coffee just because. Or your friend handing you the ox cord the moment you get in the car. No debate, no fight, just positive vibes. That kind of love. It just hits different. And that's exactly the energy. AT&T is on with their new guarantee. If there's ever a network interruption, AT&T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. No calls, no emails, no jumping through hoops. It's just handled. It's like the universe saying, I got you. Except this time it's not the stars aligning, it's your network. And let's be real, that connection is everything. Whether you're holding down the group chat, checking in on your parents. Scrolling TikTok. Your network's gotta come through. And if there's a problem, AT&T is on the case. No stress, no drama, just real backup when it counts. Credit for Fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guarantee for full details. AT&T connecting changes everything.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (38:58)

Many of us play lots of different roles in life. Partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of therapy for Black girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you're booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I travel somewhere, I'm typically determined to try the best local pizza and find the best spa experience. With Chase Sapphire Reserve you have access to everything from private dinners hosted by award winning chefs to VIP treatment at the most sought after events. Chase Sapphire Reserve allows you to take advantage of one of a kind experiences while earning three times points on dining worldwide. No matter your destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase sapphire reserve@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply Tired of spills and.

WashablesOfSofas Sponsor Voice (40:32)

Stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas started just 600. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (41:31)

Parents taking care of kids can you talk about that and the impact on our mental health who?

Anna Gifty (41:38)

Hold on. Sorry.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (41:41)

That deep side tells a lot I think.

Anna Gifty (41:43)

Listen, listen. So let me be very candid about something. I'm 29 years old. You'll see in the book that like the first half I'm talking a lot about my personal experiences because I've lived through those things. But in the latter half, I rely a lot more on the women I've encountered and the women in my life. Writing the chapters about motherhood and caregiving shifted my brain chemistry because I don't think people understand how much we rely on our caregivers folks who are raising kids, folks who are taking care of disabled and sick family members, folks who are taking care of aging parents. I don't think people really understand what people are sacrificing to take that role on. I'll tell a really quick story. So the very beginning of the caregiving chapter, which is titled the Balancing act. Appropriately titled that, right? You're balancing a lot of things. It's about my mom. My mom is a remarkable woman. And my family, we immigrated from Ghana. I was born in Ghana for two seconds. And then they hopped on a plane and we ended up here, right? But I remember back in the day, you know, I would be sleeping, getting ready. You know, I got to go to school at like 8am you know, folks had alarm clocks. I had my mother out here talking to folks very loudly on the phone, 6:00am, 7:00am telling people what to do. And I remember being like, I don't understand why she's talking so loud. First and foremost, right? But I also don't understand what she's talking about. It wasn't until I got older that I learned she's taking care of so many people back at home. So many people rely on her. And as my sister has gotten older, I've also noticed the same with her. Now she's a mother as well, too. So when you ask me a question about, like, how does this affect your mental health? What the stories from the women that we spoke to revealed is that it is a strain to have people relying on you 24 7. And I think what people don't understand is that the moment women enter any stage of caregiving, whether it's you become a mom, you start taking care of a family member or, you know, someone who's sick or disabled, the expectation to take care of everyone never stops. You never get a break from it. And I think that that has to change. Well, one, like, the caregiving responsibilities need to be shifted to other groups within society, right? There needs to be better care infrastructure so that people aren't feeling the burden as individuals and as families. But more specifically to your mental health, as we're talking about this on the platform that is therapy for black girls or therapy for black girls, right? Is I have noticed that, like, feeling like the weight of the world is on you. It can be such an overwhelming thing. And so in that chapter, and this is something that was at last minute, I remind people to rest, right? This is sort of the rest is resistance movement, the NAT Ministry movement. You cannot pour from an empty cup. And one thing that I learned from the conversations about caregiving from caregivers, from mothers, from folks who are taking care of their aging parents, is that if you are not careful, the responsibilities of caregiving compound. It's not that the first month of caregiving is the same as the second month. It's not the second month, it's the first month plus whatever the second month is bringing and so forth. And so you have to take time for yourself. You have to establish boundaries. You have to say, hey, I need my alone time. No. Right. It's a complete sentence. And of course, I'm speaking from really a naive perspective. I don't know that process yet. At some point I will be experiencing it. But from the folks that we spoke to, from the women that we heard from, that was how they kept their sanity. And I think doing that in community is the number one thing. Knowing that you can be transparent about how those burdens are affecting your day to day, how they're affecting the way that you perceive yourself. That also can, I think, help improve your mental health as you are navigating that stage of your life. And for a lot of people, that stage of their life. One of the last stories that we feature was a 70 year old woman called Lena. She was taking care of her parents up until their death, and then she recently turned 70. Right. And so the fact that like, even in your older age, you're still taking care of people, you have to establish those boundaries. You have to make sure that rest is a priority for you. And I think for black women, this is really hard because it's not just caregiving as an expectation within our families and within our own communities, but it's care. Like people expect us to take care of the world. Right? And so, like, we have to be really, really picky about where we're expending our energy. And I think that that's a hard thing to do because we're very generous and we're very giving. But I also think that we need to be generous and giving to ourselves as well.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (47:15)

I appreciate that and I would love to hear your thoughts on, like, what it looks like to have these conversations. Because I think for so many of us, like, caretaking is a cultural expectation and I think one that many of us are not mad about. Right. Like, I think it's in a lot of ways an honor to take care of like your elders and like the people in your community that need you. But they're like, to your point, there has to be a balance, right? And it can't always be the oldest daughter or the one who has been most successful in school. Right. Like.

Anna Gifty (47:43)

Right.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (47:43)

What does it look like to shift? And I think the young people are already shifting some of those conversations. Right. So how do we shift the expectations around that but still stay kind of grounded in culture and, you know, kind of respectful of the ways that, you know, our culture has kind of raised us?

Anna Gifty (47:58)

Yeah, I think that, like, that's a question that I'm still asking myself. Right. What I've kind of noticed from the women in my life who are at that stage is that they respect the people that they're taking care of, but they also establish those boundaries around asking for respect at the same time. So it's not just that, you know, I have an unlimited amount of care to give you and an unlimited amount of time to give you, but it's that, you know, I'm going to do my very best to take care of you, but in order for me to take care of you, I've also got to take care of myself. Right. And this is actually speaking to the larger conversation around care and how I like to say that we're kind of at a breaking point where we have the baby boomer generation that's about to enter sort of the 65 plus, and there's a lot of them worldwide. Right. And we cannot expect unpaid caregivers to uphold taking care of this massive group. And so we have to ensure that these individuals feel like they're being taken care of. And so, like, very structurally speaking, like pay caregivers, right? People should be getting paid to take care of people in their house. If we're paying nurses at hospitals and paying home care nurses, we can pay folks who are taking care of their family members as well. But I think to your point about conversations, it's really about, you know, do you respect me as a human being? Do you respect me as a human being that's taking care of you? Are you respecting me as a human being who also is deserving of care? My care might look different from your care, but in order for me to really show up for you, I've also got to make sure that there are things that are showing up for me as well. And that sometimes might look like me, but it could also look like other parts of my life, communities, et cetera, that are pouring into me. And so having that open and honest conversation, it's hard, right? I mean, I'm from Ghana, and so, like, taking care of your elders, like you said, is part of the culture. I would say, you know, this is true across the entire Black diaspora. And I think that a lot of times, too, even then, Black women are still being burdened with really unfair care expectations. And I think we just have to be really intentional that, you know, it's actually about, like, taking care of ourselves and being honest with people about how we plan to do that so that they're not sort of surprised when we start implementing those things into our life.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (50:22)

More from our conversation after the break.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (50:34)

So one of the things I love most about your book is that I think it is a very powerful example. Example of like, sharing people's stories, Right. How do you think we can get better at having more open and honest conversations about things like financial stress, economic stress, burnout, depression in the black women community?

Anna Gifty (50:52)

Oh, first of all, I really appreciate you affirming me throughout the entire interview and saying that you really love the book. I really appreciate that. Thank you. It was a labor of love, and I'm so grateful for the team that helped bring this together. It's a really great question about. These topics are quite taboo, if we're being honest, right? People don't talk about the cost that women deal with day to day because it's kind of assumed that we just kind of take it on the chin. And I think that a book like this is a conversation starter. And so very practically, I think you should get with your girlfriends and read this book and have an honest conversation about how these different areas of your life, whether they apply or not, really sort of shape these conversations around stressors that you face either economically, emotionally, or even socially, and how you plan to navigate it. I think what's really great about a book like this is I'm not really big on leaving folks with problems. You know, I don't like to create messes and then just leave them to be cleaned up by somebody else. And so at the end of every single chapter, we're talking about ways to sort of mitigate these costs, to eliminate these costs, to reduce these costs, Because I don't think these costs need to exist. I've told folks over the last few days that the individual costs that women deal with, especially black women deal with today will become societal costs for everyone else tomorrow. You do not want these costs to go unaddressed. And I think as black women, having a conversation about what these costs mean for us individually is one way we can start mitigating the societal costs that are to come. Even if everybody else wants to be unprepared for what's coming, we'll be prepared. Right? We'll have the tools and the communities fortified and ready to go. So that when these things become societal costs, hopefully they don't become. But let's say they do, we know how to deal with them. And perhaps even though as an example, how to show other folks how to deal with them too, and to overall reduce the cost that folks are facing in society, I think also being transparent about what you're going through is really important, right? We're on a podcast about therapy, therapy for black girls. And for me, what I've learned in therapy with my wonderful black woman therapist is that being honest about where you're at is actually really, really important to healing in general, but also to just, like, living a life that's fuller and more fulfilling. What's been really good in my life is that people have been honest with me about, you know, where they're at financially, what they're going through economically, socially, psychologically, etc. And that's helped me be just a better friend. I will say this. I haven't said on any podcast yet, but writing this book made me a better human being. And what I mean by that is, especially after writing the motherhood chapter and the caregiving chapter, the chapter about the balancing act and mothering, I had to talk to my sister. I had to talk to my mom. I had to talk to women in my life about what they were going through. And in a lot of these conversations, those women revealed things that I didn't previously know, right? By asking them about, you know, can you reflect on this time of your life? Can you reflect on how you navigated it? Talking about motherhood completely changed how I saw my sister's current journey as a mom. I remember once talking to her and being like, why don't you just hire a nanny? And she was like. She looked at me like I was crazy. She was like, huh? And I said, you know, I don't understand, you know, what the big deal is until I wrote the chapter, and I said, oh, my God, why doesn't anybody talk about how much a nanny costs, right? Or how much a babysitter costs? And even, you know, talking to my mom about her experiences in the workplace, I didn't know that she had faced discrimination, right? What I study in my dissertation right now is, in short, how to make it really hard for your boss to be racist. But for the sake of this current timeline, talent acquisition and development, right? And ultimately, learning those stories helped me better understand their experiences and to see their humanity in a much fuller way. And so I think that Having these conversations will help you become a better friend, a better sister, a better mother, a better auntie, a better grandmother, a better niece, a better daughter, just a better woman to your fellow woman, and hopefully men. Listening to this podcast, too, you'll be able to better understand the women and girls in your life so that you can show up for them in a meaningful way, but also understand how the decisions that they're making affect your life as well.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (55:44)

So, Anna, I don't often get to talk to black women economists, so I feel like I have to take this opportunity to chat with you. There are so many conversations online about, like, oh, this thing happened. That's a recession indicator. What are people talking about? And are there any actual, like, recession indicators that you can point to or that you want to make sure we put on the map during this conversation?

Anna Gifty (56:06)

Yeah, I think it's a great question. If I'm talking to other economists, what they'll say? Well, it's a mixed bag, but what many of them will say is the economy on paper. Meaning, like, if we're looking at the numbers, things are fine for right now, but there's something called a vibe session. This has been coined by Kyla Scanlon. And it's this idea that, yes, the numbers are reflecting a strong economy, but people are feeling economically pressured. And I would say that if we're going off of what black economists have long said is a recession indicator, what's happening with black and brown communities economically oftentimes is a. That's so raven. You know, we're looking into the future, what's about to happen. Right. And so I'm looking at black women leaving the labor force in droves. And I don't know if folks know what the labor force means. The labor force means that you're unemployed or you're looking for work. So you really want a robust labor force because that means that, you know, there's job opportunities in the job market. If people stop looking for work and, you know, they're also unemployed, that means that people don't even think that the. They don't even think that the job market has a chance. Right. Like, they're not even looking for jobs to begin with, and that's not good. And we kind of saw this reflected in the most recent jobs report that resulted in the firing of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which, by the way, releases these job numbers every month they're firing where we saw a decline in the number of jobs added that month. I believe it was like 73,000 jobs were added, usually the break even point is like closer to 86,000. That's like lower than it's been in the past. But the break even point is a suggestion that, you know, anything above that, that or above means that we got a strong economy, we're good to go. As you, let's just do math. Which number is bigger, right? 73 or 86. And that's why that man was a little upset, right? Because it's like, wait a minute, this is indicating that the economy is not strong, et cetera, et cetera. And so I would say that if you've been paying attention to black women, back in March, you could have anticipated what the July jobs report was going to say. Now there's still economists out there saying, like, there's nothing to worry about, unemployment rate is still low. But once again, I think that even if you have a low unemployment rate, a decline in labor force participation, which is what we were talking about before with black women leaving the labor force is not good. And so I would say that a recession indicator to pay attention to is what's happening with black women in the job market. Are the black women in your community being fired from their jobs? Are they being laid off? Are they looking for jobs still? Because if they're not, that means that even the recovery from like losing your job is taking some time. If it's taking time for black women, you better believe that that is coming down the line for everybody else.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (59:13)

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Anna Gifty (59:15)

No problem.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (59:16)

So where can we stay connected with you, Anna? Where can we find the copy of the book or stay connected connected to you on your website or on social media?

Anna Gifty (59:24)

Well, hopefully you'll tune into this podcast. Therapy for black Girls is a wonderful, wonderful platform and I really encourage that everybody continues to stay subscribed and tuned in to this podcast and what the platform offers. So thanks again, Dr. Joy, for having me on. I would say I am on the Interwebs. So I'm in Blue sky, which is kind of like the tamer version of Twitter these days at itsaphronomics. But I'm also on Instagram as well at itsaphronomics. Its but folks who want to check out the book, just visit anagifty.com or go to your local bookseller. One thing I've been telling folks to do is make sure you request this book at your local library. Make sure you support a black owned bookstore or woman owned bookstore. These are the ways to ensure that the book reaches folks who might not get exposure through other means. And so just ensuring that the book is freely available and available at your local bookstore or will make sure that as many people get their hands on it.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (60:20)

Perfect.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (60:21)

And I heard you mention dissertation, so it sounds like that's the stage of you of grad school you're in. Is there anything else you want to let us know about anything happening next for you that you'd like us to support?

Anna Gifty (60:33)

Oh, I really appreciate that. Yeah. So as I mentioned Before, I'm a PhD student. I'm dissertating right now. For those who don't know, a PhD is like a terminal degree. And so the point of the degree is to essentially do your own research and then maybe become an academic or something else. So I actually am interested in becoming an academic. I think that, you know, the next generation needs some good educators and I feel very called to that work. So I think that might be what's next for me. But also I feel like public scholarship in general is really the ethos of my calling. It's like what I believe I've been called to do. And what that means is I'm really, really interested in democratizing knowledge. I just want to as many people to know as much information that is accurate and reliable as possible so that you can make informed decisions about your life and hopefully improve your life along the way. So I feel like that's kind of what's next for me, making sure this book hopefully becomes a success. I know that black women always show up for black women, and so I'm really looking forward to seeing a lot of you share that you've ordered the book and that this book has touched your life and also touch the lives of folks in your community.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer) (61:41)

Thank you, Anna, and thank you for spending some time with us today. We'll make sure to include all of your information in the show notes so that people can grab their copies and stay connected.

Anna Gifty (61:48)

Thanks so much, Dr. Joy. Always a pleasure.

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (61:55)

I'm so glad Anna was able to join me for today's conversation to learn more about her or to grab a copy of her new book, the Double Tax. Be sure to visit the show notes at therapy for black girls.com session 429. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have books or movies you'd like us to review or thoughts about topics you'd like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our Therapist Directory at therapy for black girls.com directory don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our patreon community@community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyreek Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island all that. Plan your trip today at visitroadisland.com that's Visit Rhode Island.com Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music, festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

WashablesOfSofas Sponsor Voice (64:55)

Time for a sofa upgrade? Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus, our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.

Anna Gifty (65:52)

Com.

WashablesOfSofas Sponsor Voice (65:52)

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Anna Gifty (65:55)

This is an iHeart podcast.