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- [00:11]
A
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For for more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining me for session 435 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word from our sponsors. This is an iHeart podcast. Today I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts, and year round enrollment, NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu Edu.
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B
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- [04:31]
C
Same relationship as another.
- [04:33]
A
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession or join us over on our Patreon channel to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.
- [04:53]
C
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Tamara.
- [04:56]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [04:58]
C
Can you start by telling us a little bit more about yourself and your practice? Like, what is your practice looking like these days?
- [05:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I have tons of families right now in my practice, so I'm seeing a little bit under 200 people a month coming into my office asking for family therapy. I've always done children, teens, maybe families here and there, but as of the past two years and a little bit after the COVID time, I've been working with families and trying to help them communicate better. There's tons of sibling rivalry, tons of parental alienation. There is also custody battles. And so my practice right now is is fully family based therapy and treatment at this time.
- [05:43]
C
So that's so interesting. So I feel like kind of historically in the field family counseling was not something you saw a lot happening. Like of course there were therapists who were doing it, but it's sounding like there's a real uptick, especially in your practice. And it sounds like in particular after the pandemic, is there anything that you can point to? I mean, beyond like, the. The trauma that we all experience in a pandemic, are there particular themes that you're seeing kind of related to a post pandemic kind of life that are coming up for your families?
- [06:10]
B
Oh, yeah. I think the major theme that I'm seeing right now is we didn't really know each other before the pandemic. We were stuck together for so many months. And now I realize I don't feel the same way about you that I did when we didn't have to be in lockdown. So that's kind of like a common theme for my practice right now. It's how do we build that loving relationship with our children? How do we build that loving relationship between siblings or at least somehow develop healthy skills after the pandemic? It just seemed like the pandemic did something psychological to most families, and so now they're just searching for treatment and options. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:51]
C
And we have been seeing more around, like, sibling relationships. Right. You know, I think there's a lot, of course in the field about the relationship you have with your parents and how that, you know, really leads to different things in your life. But I think there's more focus on sibling relationships now, and it sounds like you are seeing a lot of siblings as a part of your work. So talk to me about, like, some of the common things that are coming up in terms of sibling pairs or sibling dynamics in your work.
- [07:17]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Currently, I have, I'm going to say, maybe about seven cases that are just about sibling rivalry. And it's. My sessions with them are mainly focused on better communication, really trying to manage the internal desire to compete and win. Some kind of favoritism in the eyes of parents. Also, jealousy is a big one for me right now. And kids and siblings just trying to communicate even when they're feeling like maybe the other sibling is the best one or maybe the other sibling is favored in mom and dad's eyes. Trying to help those siblings communicate in a healthy way and support each other and not try to tear each other down. Very poor communication is another thing that I'm dealing with. I'm not able to talk to my sibling. I'm not able to get on the same level with them and work through things. We fight, we physically fight, we verbally fight, we ostracize each other, and we can't even get along at home, much less in School. So I'm seeing a lot of rivalry that happens in the school system, too. And siblings, if we're talking about adolescents, they're in high school, they have different friend groups, and they don't engage with each other. It's like they're kids that have never met each other before. And that's a scary thing when you break it down.
- [08:39]
C
And it does kind of feel like the language around sibling rivalry has been kind of in the lexicon for forever. Right. And so is that a natural part of what you would expect with sibling dynamics? Is that there will be some kind of rivalry, or are there specific factors that impact whether, like, there will be this sense of a rivalry between siblings?
- [08:59]
B
That's such a great question, and I get that question all the time from parents. I really think it depends on the risk factors within a family. So if we're dealing with a family that has generational trauma, intergenerational trauma, generational challenges in terms of poor communication, abusive behavior, domestic violence, drug abuse, untreated or poorly treated mental illness, all of those risk factors, I think kind of sets up kids to have a really hard time when they have a sibling. So I would say most siblings are going to have a pretty quote, unquote, normal relationship with each other if the household is stable. But when we're dealing with an unstable family dynamic, it kind of sets the kids up in the family to have a sibling rivalry. Even research on sibling rivalry suggests that if you have siblings who are being parented wrong, or if you have siblings who have permissive parents, which means they're not as firm in terms of boundaries and rules, you're likely to run into kids who are far beyond sibling rivalry. We're talking about we need to get therapy because our kids are not functioning cohesively. So, yeah, I would say things are pretty much normal rivalry. Until there's so many risk factors, the kid is not very well supported. Sibling rivalry is the end result of that.
- [10:26]
C
And it seems like, Tamra, like, this sense of rivalry is like, in some ways, like, a fight for independence and, like, who am I in this family? Right. Like, everybody wants to be kind of seen and, you know, validated for who they are. And so it sounds like that's what you're talking about in terms of, like, the normal, like, who am I? And like, how do I differentiate myself? But what you're talking about seeing is something that is beyond that in terms of maybe jealousy or something that is beyond just, like, I'm claiming my stake to who I am in the family.
- [10:55]
B
100%. That's kind of the quote, unquote, normal road. You know, I would say the quote, unquote, abnormal road would be, I'm fighting my sibling, and there's really no reason for this. I'm just angry or I'm jealous or, you know, something of that nature. That's an issue. Yeah.
- [11:13]
C
So you talked about permissive parenting. Kind of like the lack of boundaries being one thing that might impact whether there is, like, this increased rivalry. Are there other things that parents are doing or should be on the lookout for that might set up their children to not have, like, maybe the strongest relationship?
- [11:31]
B
I think language is key. Language is key. Sometimes when I'm seeing an entire family for a session, I'll hear the parents, you know, unintentionally mention things that can kind of put siblings in opposition toward each other. So things like, you know, Billy's always been the smartest kid in the family. He knows everything. You know, every time you turn around, he's given us facts about certain things. He's just a wonderful kid. Something like that kind of causes the other child in the family to think, well, wait a minute, what about me? Language is key. And. And I see that a lot in family sessions. Even when a parent is just describing maybe that sibling's temperament or that sibling's mental health challenges, it can sound like the parent is putting one kid up here and, you know, the other kid down here. I had a session a couple days ago with the family that kind of dealt with this, and dad did not mean to hurt the feelings of his son, but he did say something like, you know, my brother's been the smartest in this family. I was next, just as intelligent, and my daughter is also highly intelligent. I mean, the three of us, we just click because we think the same. Well, that left his son out. And so the son and I had a lot of time to process how that broke him down and how that hurt him. So language is key. Unintentional language, how you describe things is important. And talking about that, that other siblings, mental and behavioral health problems. The language there also needs to be carefully altered. So language is key.
- [13:08]
C
So what recommendations would you give to parents around, you know, like, how do you balance that? Is it like, if you're offering a compliment for one, you want to also make sure you're offering compliments for the others? Like, how do you balance that?
- [13:20]
B
Oh, that's so hard. I wish I had, like, a clinical answer for that. Dr. Joy, I. I'm just going to say this humbly. I Don't know if I have the answer or not. And I don't know if many therapists who work with families have that answer. I think it may just depend on the quote, unquote, temperature of the family. So if you have a really vulnerable family where there's tons of risk factors, there's anger, there's high conflict, there's untreated mental health challenges, you want to be careful, again, with how you're describing things and being careful with labels. Maybe saying something like, billy's really good at A, B and C, but so is Tommy. So, like, I have two wonderful kids. Kids, you know, they have different strengths, but Billy knows how to do this, Timmy knows how to do that. So maybe doing that can be a little bit helpful or just staying away from comparison altogether. I think that's your safest bet. Yeah.
- [14:18]
C
So what do we know about the sibling relationships and how they form us into who we are? So again, we talked about, you know, there's so much about, like, your parents and your caregivers and how their response is to you impact how you show up in relationships later. What about our relationships with our siblings? What do we know about our adult selves based on maybe our early lives with siblings?
- [14:39]
B
Yeah, you know, there's research that highly supports the idea that the sibling relationship is the most significant relationship in that child's life. That besides the parent relationship, the sibling relationship is that one relationship where we learn how to interact, we learn how to think and feel, and we also learn how to be in relationship relation to another person. So if we're dealing with sibling rivalry, and it doesn't seem to be the kind of normal sibling rivalry that we're used to, if we're talking about jealousy and competition and really trying to hurt that other sibling and take their identity or minimize them or be very condescending every chance they get, that's going to set up that same pattern of relationships for that sibling for the rest of their lives. The same gender sibling is often the most important sibling. So in other words, if you have a boy, the brother is very significant, according to research, in that child's life. So if there's, you know, issues in that relationship throughout the development of that child or adolescent, adult relationships are going to be just as problematic because that's how they've learned to engage. That's how they have learned how to communicate. So there's no communication in a healthy way. And so as that individual grows older, they think it's okay to compete. They think it's okay to be hurt or minimized or, you know, have this angry and hostile disposition to the world, their adult relationships are just going to be a little bit rocky because that most important relationship has been rocky as well.
- [16:20]
C
And for people who maybe don't grow up with siblings but have maybe close relationships with cousins or, you know, many of us have extended families where kind of everybody is like a, a play sister or something like that, do those relationships mimic what you see with siblings or is that different?
- [16:36]
B
I would say that's different. And, and honestly, we lack the clinical research that can help us tease apart if there's similarity or differences. Even in my preparation for my own YouTube channel and, and for this conversation, I didn't see much on children in a family and their extended family. We're lacking the research, Dr. Joy, and we need to get that information because it's going to help us understand the sibling relationship as well. So we're a little bit behind. Just a little bit more from our.
- [17:09]
A
Conversation after the break today, I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs needs Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our life to where we want it to. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts, and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu no one's journey is the same. That's why Delta SkyMiles lets you do it your way. From earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping and things you do every day to connecting you to new places and experiences. A SkyMiles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you you. It's more than travel. It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides and arrives with you. Every great journey deserves a great story. And when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling how your story will unfold or where that journey will take you next. SkyMiles is the membership that will Be here for all your big and small moments. The membership that's there for every solo adventure or family trip. The membership that comes with the power of partnership from brands you love. The membership that moves with you. Learn more@delta.com SkyMiles okay friends, real talk. You are worth the wait. We've all been there, giving our energy to connections that didn't honor ours and watching friends do the same. And honestly, we all deserve better. That's why Bumble is built for intentional dating. Safety is such a big deal for us all, especially when meeting new people. And Bumble gives you the peace of mind with options like photo and ID verification. That little extra step means you know the person you're talking to is who they say they are with their real photos, and they are ready to show up authentically. And once you feel safe, you can actually focus on what matters. Finding someone who gets you with shared interests. It's easy to see right away who vibes with your passions, whether that's true crime, podcasts, yoga mornings, or weekend hikes. So take a pause, affirm your worth, and protect your peace. Bumble helps you create safe, meaningful connections, the kind that truly respect your boundaries, your energy, and your time. Thinking about dating again? Take this as your sign. Start your love story on Bumble. Just in case you're not closely paying attention to the calendar, the winter holidays are right around the corner, and now is the perfect time to get a head start on your gift list. Get into the holiday season with the Macy's Friends and Family sale and to get unbelievable deals on the brands you know they'll love for your fashionistas, get 30% off dresses from brands like Calvin Klein and DKNY. Get 30% off women's shoes from brands like Steve Madden and Vince Camuto, and 15% off beauty. For the travelers in your life, get 40 to 50% off luggage from Samsonite. And for all the top chefs, get 15 to 25% off select ninja appliances. Shop now so you don't have to stress later. Shop Macy's Friends and family sale through November 3rd online at Macy's.com with code FRIEND or in store.
- [21:15]
C
So as I'm listening to you talk, Tamara, I'm thinking about a conversation we had early on in the podcast with Dr. Ann Louise Lockhart about like co regulation, right? And how so much of how our children show up in the world is really based on how well we do regulating ourselves and our own emotions. And so when you talk about things like, like favoritism, right? Or like, is there a Favorite child or who's the problem child in the family? I think so much of that does come from like what the parents are saying, maybe consciously, but probably a lot of it is subconscious. Can you talk about like what kinds of things parents need to be aware of so that they are not playing into these favoritism kinds of conversations?
- [21:54]
B
Oh yeah, I think this is a very broad question, so I'm going to mention a few things. It's a really good question because sometimes families will come into session and ask me, hey, Tamara, how do I manage this dynamic? I think just being aware again of language, being aware of what's the temperament of my child and do I need to be careful with how I talk about what's going on in their lives with the other siblings? I'll give you an example. It's kind of like if you have two adolescent daughters, you may not want to highlight that the 16 year old tends to be more mature than the 13 year old because the 16 year old had a better academic life or had better friends or, you know, they seem to manage their emotions better. You want to be careful comparing the two and highlighting that one child is inherently better than the other child there. You know, I think parents fall into this trap of I'm closest to my daughter because my daughter is more like me. I get that a lot in therapy as well. Sometimes dads will say, you know, my son Michael and I, we're just like this because we tend to be the most similar. And because of that, the parent automatically leans toward that child. So dad may lean more towards Michael and just about everything. Punishments, favoritism, how he showers that son with love and affection, the pep talks that he gives that son, the eye contact and body language around that son, all of it can send these non verbal cues to the other child. That I love Michael, maybe a little bit too much and maybe way more than I love you. Also too, I see this in clinical settings where one sibling will be the most difficult. Why? Because of a mental illness, because of a behavioral problem, because of challenges academically. And that'll cause maybe one parent to unintentionally lean towards the child that has little to no challenges. And that leaves this child feeling like maybe I am defected, maybe I'm dysfunctional, maybe I'm the black sheep, maybe I'm the scapegoat in the family. Everybody blames me because I'm the, the problem here and my brother Michael isn't. So I'm the devil, he's the angel. So, so parents have a really important Role within the sibling dynamic? How do I communicate with a child that isn't necessarily doing as well as maybe Michael is? And how do I help that other child understand that even though you may have challenges or even though you're not as mature, even though something's going on here, it doesn't mean Michael is better than you? So really having some self awareness inside the parent, having that self awareness of how do I treat both of my kids? Am I separating them? Am I punishing this one more than the other? And if so, why? So that introspection is key as we're.
- [25:06]
C
Talking, of course, as adults. Tamara, I'm reminded that, like, children, of course, don't have the same reasoning and, like, logic that we do as adults. And they come up with all kinds of fantastic stories about, like, why something is happening in the family. And so, you know, I think about something you just said made me think about, like, if there is a child who has maybe significant health issues in a family and there's a lot of, like, resources and energy that go to that child, and then the other child may be feeling less special.
- [25:33]
A
Right.
- [25:33]
C
And so all of these things that I think as parents and caregivers, like, you have to be mindful of that children and you're thinking like, oh, like they know that I love them kind of thing. Right. But they don't know what kinds of stories they're creating about, like, why so and so gets so much attention.
- [25:49]
B
Yes, that's so, so true. Can I mention a theory? I think that would kind of fit well here. Dr. Drew, you're probably well aware of this theory. It's the drama triangle and this triangle. I will try to send you some information so in case people who are watching can look it up and kind of delve into that and use it in the family dynamic. But the drama triangle is pretty interesting because it happens in the midst of sibling relationships, and it also happens in parent child relationships where there's always a victim. In this triangle, there's a victim, there's a persecutor. So that's the individual in the family who's constantly creating the problems. They're pointing fingers, you know, they tend to be the most, in your face, family member. And then we also have the rescuer, who is that individual who swoops the in and saves the day. If we're talking about siblings, sometimes the sibling who is the favored tends to be the rescuer, and they tend to be the hero in the sibling dynamic. They're the sibling that has the better job, makes the most money, tends to be the most mature, has gotten married first, that rescuer child has done everything right. And so if there's a family issue where there's a quote unquote victim that is being ostracized, that's being bullied, that's being harmed, that good sibling or that rescuer sibling swoops in to save that victim, and then the child who is less favored, so the other sibling tends to be the one who is blamed for the problems in the family. So basically the black sheep. So that's the triangle is an interesting dynamic because the rescuing sibling swoops in, saves the day, they get the most love, affection, attention, support, even financial support, according to research. And the other sibling kind of stays in that black sheep role and doesn't get a chance to maybe prove themselves to that family dynamic. It's a sad triangle when you look at it and you really delve in to what it means.
- [27:56]
C
Thank you for sharing that. I had not heard about that, so I'm interested to read more about that. So, you know, I think you just bring up a great example that makes me think about, like, well, what happens when these kids then grow up. Right. You know, so I think a lot of people think in an ideal world, you have these very close relationships with your siblings. They're your first best friends kind of thing. But sadly, we know that that is not always the case. So what kinds of things impact the kind of relationship you have with your sibling as an adult?
- [28:25]
B
I'm gonna highlight jealousy and envy. That tends to be really huge jealousy. I think in envy, they're normal emotions, like, they're common emotions. So maybe I should kind of separate those from more of a morbid jealousy or more of a pathological jealousy where the sibling who is the jealous envious one of the other sibling, they tend to be on this war path. And research supports this as well. If you have a sibling who's jealous as a child, jealous as an adolescent, and it hasn't wavered, and then continues to be jealous and envious, even though there's been therapy, there's been positive reinforced enforcement, there's been parenting alterations. Whatever the case, if that child, adolescent continues that jealousy of the other sibling up into adulthood, it's going to set that other sibling up for a series of negative experiences, because that jealous, envious sibling is really putting that other sibling in a. In a vulnerable position. And that other sibling, the one who is envied is in that role. And they're stuck and they don't know how to get out. Sometimes it can feel like a trap because they want to have a good relationship with that other sibling, but they can't do it because the jealous sibling has slammed the door and said, you know what? I don't like you because of A, B and C or I don't, you're not my kind of individual because of a, B and C. And that puts that other sibling in a place where they're most likely to have emotional voids. They're most likely to get into abusive relationships because they can't necessarily see the signs and the behaviors that something's wrong in this relationship. And they are also more likely to struggle in other areas of their lives, academically, you know, positions that they are pursuing in their career. They're likely to have low self esteem and low feelings of self efficacy. There's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy with the sibling who is envied. There's just so many avenues that they can end up down. And it's all because of the sibling who has made life really difficult all the way from childhood, adolescence into adulthood. But it's a very sad and depressing dynamic.
- [30:36]
C
Yeah, you know, something we have not talked about that I think is also a really important part of conversations when you're talking about siblings is birth order. So there's been so much, there's been so much conversation. It feels like, yeah, maybe within the last two to three years around like oldest daughters, right? Like we see a lot of like, oh, I'm the oldest daughter and it means XYZ in my family. Can you talk to us about birth order? And like, what does that mean in the context of family dynamics?
- [31:03]
B
Oh, goodness. So the reason why I'm laughing, Dr. Joy, is because I was just doing some research lesson on a birth order for my own video. So that's coming out on siblings and I. I'll say this first, before I get into birth order research cannot find a causal relationship between birth order and how that child's life is going to turn out. Whether it's going to be positive or negative. There's an association, but we don't understand the causal link necessarily. Those are two different things. So birth order is interesting because the older sibling automatically takes on that role of protector, hero, rescuer, you know, and parents interestingly automatically assigned to that older sibling. And I, I'm this way in my own family, I'll tell you that in a second. But that older sibling tends to, if you ask me, the parent tends to have a higher expectation for that older sibling, no matter whether or not, that older sibling can hold up the end of the bargain. So, in other words, that older sibling may not be necessarily mature enough to guide or to be the leader of the family, but just because they're the firstborn, that expectation. That parent holds that expectation rather high. And that eldest child, just sometimes they fold under that. Other times they succeed. But for the most part, I think they kind of fold. Now, I'll give you an example. My family, I have two brothers. I'm the middle child. My younger sibling gets on my last nerve. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you. That. And he gets on my nerves because he plays that role of baby. He's the last child, so he plays that role of the birth order, role of the baby in the family. And so he does things that are excused. He's really not the one mom is looking at when things need to get done. He's the one that kind of receives, while the older siblings kind of feel like the slave. I'm the middle child, so I got a lot of love and affection, but at the same time, I'm looked at as the sibling that is there to kind of hold the family and the siblings together. And I think that has more to do with my gender. It's more of a gender thing. You're the girl. You know What I mean, Dr. Joy? You're the girl. So, you know, you're to hold the family together, you're going to be the thinker, the emotional one. And then, of course, my older brother, he's the one that kind of left the nest very quickly, but I think he folded under the stress of being the older sibling. And so for many years, he did not talk to my mom. And I think there was a lot of resentment that he had to be the older sibling who was kind of left out of the equation. When my mom had myself and my younger sibling, not intentionally. It was just birth order, and it happened that way. I think a lot of older kids go on to feel resentment because maybe they were born at a time when mom and dad were youngest. Maybe they were born at a time when mom and dad didn't have the tools and the skills. And then here comes the younger siblings, and they're getting the best of mom and dad. So I think older siblings, they have a huge calling, but I'm not so sure they all stand up under the pressure. I'm starting to see the older I get in my sibling dynamic, and even working with families who are going through this as well, I'm starting to see that the Older sibling needs sometimes the most love, the most compassion, because a lot of them feel like, I had to leave, I had to spread my wings, I had to become independent and maybe a little bit too soon.
- [34:54]
C
So, so, so many thoughts are running through my head, Tamara, because you brought up some excellent points. So, one, I think there's lots of conversation around, like, how every child in a family gets a different set of parents. Right? So, you know, the first child gets, like, the brand new, like, what in the world are we doing? Like, we're just trying to keep this baby alive, parents. And then by the time you get to second, third, later children like you maybe a little bit better sense of, you know, what you're doing. And so you get a different set of parents. And so I do think it's really interesting when you talk to, like, sibling groups that, like, some of the memories they have or their experiences of parents are very different because you, in fact, all got different sets of parents. I really appreciate that you brought up the whole you are the middle child, but you're the oldest daughter, because I was going to ask, is there some gender piece around whether that oldest child is a boy or a girl? You know, if we're using kind of binary terms. Right. Like, I. I do think, at least anecdotally, I don't know that there's any evidence that the oldest daughters. It feels like, even if they do buckle, there is more of a sense of, like, you are expected to do this, whereas maybe oldest boy children are kind of like, they can make more mistakes or whatever, but, like, oldest girls are kind of just expected to have it all together.
- [36:13]
B
Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, my God. My. So my mom had a. I'm not gonna say it's not a mini stroke, but it's like a left hemispheric stroke where the right side of her body, because of a blood clot and because of high blood pressure, just stopped working. So she had a stroke in February. It was a huge traumatic situation for myself and my siblings, but I think for the first time in my life, life, I saw birth order play out, because as the middle daughter and the younger brother and older brother, they were there as much as I was. But as the middle daughter, I was expected to talk to the doctors, to comfort mom, to caregive, to fix the dinners for my siblings, to hug them and tell them it's going to be okay to hold their hand. Even down to my brother, for example. Even down to my brother needing a work excuse for coming to the hospital. He's like, I don't know what to do. And so I said, I'll do it for you. So I recognize for the first time that I'm dependent on all the time. And it's because I'm the middle girl. I cannot take that role of sitting back and relaxing. In a way, I've been expected to just step up. And I think a lot of female siblings go through that.
- [37:36]
C
So when we see like high profile, super successful sibling pairs, like a Beyonce in a Solange or Venus and Serena Williams, how do you make sense of, like, this kind of super successful identity and like, shared ambition that kind of comes out of one household? Like, what are your thoughts about that?
- [37:56]
B
When I think of Venus and Serena, they're awesome. Like, they're just wonderful. Even Beyonce and her sister. I my experience in treating sisters who are both successful, I think they share the power in the family, but again, because they're females, I think they're kind of leaned on maybe more so than two sons in the family. The siblings who are females, they're kind of looked at. And especially if they're successful as two Wonder Womans in the family, boys are not looked at in that way for some reason. I think, again, it's just the gender thing. It's females, and if they're successful, they're really leaned on within the family. There can also be some jealousy between them and competition. You know, maybe the Serena Williams in a sister dynamic, a family dynamic, is the one who is the most praised because she's married and has a daughter now, two children, and she's this powerful female model, maybe the Venus of the family, who isn't married yet, on her way, but isn't married yet, isn't really as powerful until she says, I do. So I think there's some dynamics there too. But for the most part, if you have two successful females or sisters in a family, that is. Is some kind of power dynamic.
- [39:18]
C
And you know, Ms. Tina Knowles has been very public in talking about how she started therapy with the girls very early on because, you know, Beyonce was already kind of on her way to kind of being successful and really wanted to make sure that Solange had a place to talk about that and that, you know, they could really kind of get ahead of any issues. And it feels like that is something because, you know, at least they're talking about it, right? Like, they are able to kind of put these issues on the table, which I think is more than maybe some families will do. And then you realize that there is all this jealousy and envy. Like, you mentioned.
- [39:50]
B
Absolutely. I'm not sure that we, as a field of psychology have the research there to really treat these kind of families. So it's like, what's the theoretical orientation? What's the road we need to go down with these siblings when it comes to that sibling dynamic? Do we use Bowenian therapy? You know, do we use structural family therapy? Do we use cognitive behavior therapy? Just what is needed as a context to treat these families? I'm not sure we have the research, Dr. Joy, unless you know of some, but I, I Exactly. We're lacking and we need, we need a lot more research.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah. More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Results Learn more today at nu.edu. no one's journey is the same. That's why Delta Sky Miles lets you do it your way. From earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping, and things you do every day to connecting you to new places and experiences, a SkyMiles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you you. It's more than travel. It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides, and arrives with you.
- [41:35]
C
You.
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A
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- [44:08]
C
We've talked a lot about, you know, like, I think family therapy in terms.
- [44:11]
A
Of children in the family, but what.
- [44:13]
C
Does it look like, Tamara, to work on, like, healing sibling wounds. Wounds as adults. So let's say there is a pair of siblings that comes to you and they say, you know, we didn't have the best relationship as children, but we really want to have a stronger relationship now. What does it look like to heal those wounds as adults?
- [44:32]
B
Absolutely. When I get these families in my practice, the first step I want them to take, and I often encourage them to take, is to start fresh. Saying goodbye to that history is important because if we're still holding on to what happened back then, then it kind of cuts us off from closing that door and moving ahead in a healthy way. Seeing each other as adults is also important. So perception of reality, there's often, when it comes to sibling relationships, there's often a distortion of reality in terms of favoritism and who was the best child and who was the most successful and who was the most Praised a sibling may feel like where you are mom and dad's favorite and the so called favorite and they say no, you are mom and dad's favorite behavior. So there's some distortion of reality there. We have to kind of shut that door, slam that door, lock it up and say okay, that's not important. Let's focus on the now and move ahead. Let's see each other as adults. Let's figure out how do we connect as adults. What is it that we need as adults? What do we need to do to become close knit individuals in this scary world? Once you can do that, I think you can then move into, into skill building. So how should we be communicating? How often should we be communicating? You know, should I call you if you cross my mind or if I feel you on my heart for the day? What do I need as your sibling to give you the love that I couldn't give you when we were younger? What places of your life can I impact? Can I play a powerful role so that we can rebuild our relationship and be the strong siblings that we should have been when we were younger? So staying in contact with that sibling understanding I can throw in here the love languages of your sibling. Do they need your physical affection? Do they need an email? Do they need a text message? What is it that they need from you? So figuring that out and then again slamming that door on history and starting over and starting fresh. It's, it's humility. It's saying I love you you sis or I love you brother. And I want us to start fresh and try to get along for once in our lives. And what does that consist of? So being inquisitive, being humble, being modest, being ready to move forward.
- [46:49]
C
So it sounds like you're saying you would not go too much into this. Like okay, let's unpack this. Who was the favorite? Or like you got preferential treatment from mom and dad and I didn't. Like we're really wanting to kind of do just move past that and start almost with a fresh relationship as opposed to really kind of undoing or like trying to make peace with the relationships that we maybe had as kids.
- [47:11]
B
I can see disaster there. Like you're going to have a few sessions where you're going to be fighting and out or there's going to be some kind of. Well remember this and remember that. I think it's best to just start fresh and if there's some major traumas, maybe going back to look at that. So like if there was, was child physical abuse, if There was sexual abuse in the family. If there was PTSD as a result of a tragedy, then maybe you can go back and pull that into the now. But I really think we should start fresh and move forward from there.
- [47:47]
C
You've already given us a little bit of an example in your own life with, you know, your mom's health conditions, but what kinds of things would you offer to people? Especially as, you know, many of us have eight aging parents and thinking about, like, caregiving amongst siblings. Can you talk about, like, how sibling relationships evolve and, like, what kinds of conversations to have with your siblings as you are talking about caregiving for aging parents?
- [48:10]
B
Yeah. Oh, my God. That's such a great question, Dr. Joy. That's about five or six episodes, because there's so much to talk about. I think the most important thing when it comes to caretaking is really looking at the sibling dynamic and having a frank conversation. Who is that sibling? Who is that child that mom and dad looks up to or looks to or goes to or feels safest with that can make the decisions? This is not about who's better, who's greater, who's more competent. It's more so about who is that child who can help mom or dad or both. Both feel comfortable in aging, feel comfortable in caretaking. You know, when my mom had her stroke, my older sibling, my older brother, he knew that he could step in and support. But then he also knew that my mom tended to trust me more because I was the female. I was the one who understood the women issues. I was the one who understood those deep conversations only my mom and I could have. Doesn't mean she didn't love her. Her. Her son. Doesn't mean my older brother is incompetent. But the dynamic made it so that I had to be the one to step up. And I was the one that did most of the work. Most of the talking to the doctors, most of the advanced directives work, most of the power of attorney work. It's important to be honest and not allow your ego to get in the way when you're caregiving, because I think once your ego gets in the way, your mind's gonna put you in a trap because you're gonna start thinking, well, they love him more, they love her more, or they think I'm incompetent, or they don't trust me. Being aware of the fact that it isn't about who's the best. It's about mom or dad or both, and how do we care for them, how do we push them forward. How do we get them the things that they need? Who do they trust the most? That's a really hard road to go down because you're going to have to do a lot of self examination and you may feel a little bit hurt. You know, you may feel a little bit hurt. But I think keeping in mind we're in this together. We have to help mom or dad or both. And we need the strongest sibling to step up and take the lead role. And I'm gonna get behind my sibling and support. My older brother got behind me and just supported. And I love that when I couldn't do something, he was right there to just kind of jump in and save the day or he was there to back me up. And. And so figuring out those pieces of the puzzle is going to be very, very significant when it comes to caregiving. Who's that main person who can be there to back up and support and who can be there to just kind of take the business part of caregiving team. It's a dynamic where you're going to have to work together. It's a team approach rather than an approach that has that favorite sibling or that best person in the forefront. It's a team approach. How do we fit the pieces together here so we can save, we can help, we can support.
- [51:18]
A
Yeah.
- [51:19]
C
And this feels like one of those conversations that depending on what the sibling dynamic is.
- [51:25]
A
Right.
- [51:25]
C
Like if there are all these unresolved issues about, like who was the favorite. Right. Or if we have not made people peace with all of this, it feels like this could be like a very difficult thing to talk about. Like who's going to be like the spokesperson, maybe who's going to take more of the financial burden, you know, like it, it feels like there's a lot that could go wrong, so to speak, in these conversations, depending on what the relationship is like with your sibling.
- [51:48]
B
Yes. Oh, my God, yes. Especially when you're talking about, like executors of an estate or you're talking about a power of attorney or who's going to be managing all the business parts of the puzzle, that can be very intimidating. And for other siblings, they may feel like we're going to be pushed to the side, we're not going to get our inheritance, we're not going to be treated fairly, we're not going to be able to make a life or death decision on mom or dad. So, you know, that dynamic in and of itself is just really intimidating for most siblings. There's trauma there too.
- [52:18]
C
Yeah, yeah. You know, thinking about, we've had so many incredible guests on the podcast, and we talk with the death doula, who also works with families. Right. So it feels like using some services like that could also be good to bring in, especially if there are kind of tricky dynamics. Somebody who can come in and say, okay, who's gonna do this? You know, and really can get people on the same page.
- [52:39]
B
I agree. That's really fantastic. I didn't think of that. You brought something up that I need to kind of store in the back of my mind. Dr. Droy. It's awesome to have somebody like that that can just hold your hand and walk you through this.
- [52:50]
C
Right, right. Yeah. So this conversation is going to be coming out closer to the holidays. Tamara. And so I am also wondering, for people who are maybe don't have the best relationships or they're navigating kind of tough sibling relationships, what advice do you have about navigating the holiday season?
- [53:08]
B
Oh, geez. I think it just depends on the dynamics. So if you're a family member who has contemplated going no contact, or you have been no contact, I think it's important to just decide, how am I going to communicate? How am I going to navigate this? If somebody reaches out to me, am I going to respond? If somebody sends me a gift via mail, am I going to send it back to them? Am I going to say thank you? Am I going to call them? Am I going to go to an event or not? If you're not grappling with the no contact issue, I think if you just have a dysfunctional or toxic or unhealthy kind of family dynamic, it's important to, number one, have coping skills if you're going to deal with family members who are difficult. So figure out, what do I need to do? Do I need to show up really early and leave within 15 minutes of getting there? Do I need to hug everybody, say Merry Christmas or Happy Thanksgiving and get out of there, or do I sit with them and just not say a lot, just engage and kind of fill around for where I need to be or not be. Figuring out what your role is and how to manage your role within that family dynamic or sibling dynamic is important because if there's sibling rivalry that's been unresolved, if there's toxicity within the family dynamic, you want to make sure that you stay on the outskirts of that. So, again, coping skills, how long you're going to stay, what you're going to talk about, not talk about, what's off limits, how to set healthy boundaries, and finding that point Person, should I stay near grandma half the time that I'm visiting? You know, should I support in the kitchen and just stay out of the deep conversations in the living room? So just having a plan beforehand and, you know, humbly and. And modestly walking through that whole thing, I don't think you can really prepare you. You kind of have to have a little bit of a plan and then see how it goes from there.
- [55:01]
C
Yeah, I think that that's always the best strategy.
- [55:03]
A
Right.
- [55:03]
C
Because you don't know, like, what unknowns are gonna pop off during the holidays. But having a plan of, you know, you know, your family. Right. Like, you know, typically how things go. And so having a plan of how long you're gonna stay, who are you gonna talk to? What kinds of things are off limits? I think you bring up some excellent points there.
- [55:21]
B
Thank you.
- [55:21]
C
Yeah.
- [55:22]
B
It has saved me in the past.
- [55:28]
C
So when you think about, like, the clients that you've worked with or just the research that you've read or, you know, things. Things you've engaged with, what kinds of things do you think are, like, some of the secrets to sibling relationships that are really strong?
- [55:40]
B
I would say we tend to not look at the fact that humility is key. I think sometimes in sibling relationships, if you're feeling like that other sibling is better than you or smarter than you or they're getting favoritism, and even when you don't see that happening or you don't feel that way, just having that sibling relationship, having humility to kind of keep you and that other sibling grounded is key. And I'll use myself as an example again. If I weren't humble to. Towards my older sibling, I think we'd have a really hard time, because, number one, I'm a psychotherapist, and I study the mind, and I study the science of people. And so he's always guarded, like, are you reading me? But. But addressing our differences in a humble way and loving him in a humble way, Taking off my therapist hat, throwing it way over there, and just being that humble sibling in need of her older brother has really taken us a very long way as siblings. We get along now, I think. Think more than we had when we were adolescents. My brother's 12 years older than me. So, you know, when I was 10 and he was like, 21, 22, we didn't mesh very well. So now that we're both adults, life has changed us and experience has changed us. And so my approach to him is just in a humble way, and that's what keeps us really, really together. When I'm doing clinical work with siblings, Modesty, humility, open communication, apologizing when you've done something wrong and offering that unconditional love and support goes a very long way. Loving your sibling without those strings attached means so, so much. And I think we, we fail to recognize that those things are significant. They can take you a long way in your relationship with your siblings.
- [57:26]
C
Thank you so much for that, Tamara. I think that will be very helpful for lots of siblings and sibling relationships that may be listening to our podcast. So let us know where can we stay connected with you, Tamara, what is your website and your YouTube channel? Where can people find more from you?
- [57:41]
B
Thank you so much for having me. By the way, Dr. Joy, this was great. You can find me on my YouTube channel. I talk a lot about these issues. You can also find me at www.anchor. that's my website.
- [57:55]
C
And is your YouTube channel your name?
- [57:57]
B
It is, yes. So if you go to YouTube, type in Tamara Hill, Therapist. I'll pop right up.
- [58:01]
C
Perfect. We'll be sure to include that in the Show Notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I appreciate it.
- [58:07]
B
Thank you so much.
- [58:12]
A
I'm so glad Tamara was able to join us for today's conversation to learn more about her and her work. Be sure to visit the Show Notes at therapy for black girl.com session 4:35. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions and suggestions for the podcast? If you have books or movies you'd like us to review or have thoughts about topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our Therapist Directory at therapy for black girls.com directory. Don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our patreon channel@community.therapy for black girls.com for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining.
- [59:15]
C
Me again this week.
- [59:16]
A
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver, and many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. Life NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island all that. Plan your trip today@visitroadisland.com that's visit rhodeisland.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat and the hours it takes to blow dry your hair. I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair hair. It dries, stretches and smooths your hair all at once with way less heat, less damage and less time. Whether you're rocking, coils, curls or kinks, Revair works with your texture, not against it. It's gentle, efficient and gives you that salon quality finish right at home. Imagine all the things you could get done in a day if you cut your styling time in half. With the holidays approaching, treat yourself or loved ones to healthier, shinier hair in a fraction of the time. Thousands of women are already loving the results and the time they are getting back in their day and right now Revair is offering their lowest price of the season so you can look your best at your holiday events. You can also become a member and earn points and rewards every time you shop. Visit myravaire.com today to shop their holiday seal. That's myraver.com your crown deserves it. This episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This is an iHeart podcast.