← Therapy for Black Girls
Therapy for Black Girls
Session 437: Cookies, Healing, & Legacy with Sarah and Rev. Shawn Amos
00:45:56
Loading summary
Transcript88 lines
- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For for more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining Me for session 437 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word from our sponsors. This is an I Heart podcast. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver, and many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be during the degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women with flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. your time and energy are precious, and the people you date should honor that. That's why everyone loves Bumble, today's sponsor. It's built for intentional dating, helping you connect with people who genuinely respect your boundaries and your heart. And because so many of us want to feel safer when meeting someone new, Bumble gives you peace of mind with options like photo and ID verification so you know the person you're talking to is who they say they are. If you've been thinking about dating again, take this as your sign. Start your love story on Bumble. What's the vibe for this year's holiday parties? Are you thinking cute and cozy? Fest, festive and sparkly? Maybe a little bit of both? Well, if you need help, Macy's Free Personal Stylist can help you bring your vision to life so that you can celebrate in style. Get creative with a mix of crystals, lace and velvet from brands you love already and discover some new ones to love, like Aster, BCBG arose, and Ann Klein. Book your free session today at Macy's.com because when you look great, you feel great. Need to get away, escape the everyday, reconnect and celebrate family in a place that's made for unforgettable moments. Orlando from over the top resorts and holiday magic to 10 of the world's top theme parks, Orlando is the perfect family vacation destination for all. And no matter who you are or where you come from, Orlando welcomes you with open arms. So gather your crew and pack your matching T shirts. Orlando is calling and your next great family memory is just a trip away. Plan your trip@visitorlando.com and discover why Orlando truly is for all. Does reaching your fitness goals faster and more effortlessly appeal to you? Short Answer Duh. That's what the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton IQ does. Peloton IQ creates personalized plans, counts, reps, corrects your form, and recommends classes with instructors who match your style. The Tread plus is all about a well rounded routine and you can go from cardio to stretching with a spin of the swivel screen. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push. Go explore the new peloton cross training tread +@1peloton.com this week we're wrapping up our Sibling Sit down series with a heartfelt and nostalgic conversation featuring Sarah Amos and Reverend Shawn Amos. Together, we explored the depth of their sibling bond, how their shared history shaped their identities, and the ways they've supported one another through both grief and growth. The conversation also touches on themes of healing, creativity and family legacy, reminding us of the way siblings can both challenge and anchor us on our personal journeys. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession or or join us over in our Patreon Channel to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.
- [04:51]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Well, I'm very excited to be chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining me today. Sarah and Reverend Shawn, thank you, thank you.
- [04:58]
Sarah Amos
We're happy to be here.
- [04:59]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. So for people who may not be familiar, Sarah, can you tell us a little bit about who you are?
- [05:04]
Sarah Amos
I'm Sarah Amos and I am the host of a new podcast called Tough the Wally Famous Amos Story. I am a producer and a journalist by trade in my day job and I am also the daughter of Wally Amos, hence the podcast, but most importantly for today's purposes. And I'm going to toss it over. I am also the sister of Reverend Sean Amos.
- [05:34]
Reverend Shawn Amos
I'm Sarah's sister Sean. You're Sarah's brother Sean? Yeah. Sometimes I feel like I'm her sister. I have a strong feminine side. I am Sarah's older brother Sean. People call me Rev. I'm known as the Reverend Sean Amos because I'm a blues singer and I perform under the name of the Reverend John Amos. So the longer I've done it, some people call me Sean, some people call me Rev. And depending on what you call me is a giveaway of how long you've known me. I'm the youngest son of Wally Famous Amos. We have two older brothers. And yeah, that's me.
- [06:12]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Beautiful.
- [06:13]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So I love that transition to throwing to your brother, Sarah. I wonder if you can all get us started by just talking to us a little bit about what your relationship was like when you were younger children.
- [06:26]
Sarah Amos
I am from my dad's third marriage and I'm 15 years younger than Sean, and my relationship with each of my siblings was a little bit different. And growing up, I was definitely the closest to Sean. In the podcast, I jokingly refer to all of my siblings as the guest stars in the sitcom of my life because they would come in and out. And Sean, I would say Sean probably was like less of a guest star and more of a recurring character. He was not a regular on the sitcom, but he showed up with enough. Enough regularity that we always had a relationship that, that I knew was there, but in the younger years of my life, definitely, I think if you gut checked, asked me, like, how would you describe yourself? I think mostly I would still, even then, describe myself as an only child. It's not till I've gotten older that I have started always describing myself as someone who has siblings.
- [07:28]
Reverend Shawn Amos
It's interesting. I was living in Hawaii when Sarah was born, so I moved to Hawaii. And I'm so bad with ears, but our father, and that's interesting too. You'll notice there's times when we say our father and there's times when we say my father. And that's indicative of the. The kind of the newness of seeing ourselves as the having this sort of shared experience. But our father asked me to move to Hawaii with. With Sarah's mother, Christine, my stepmother, before Sarah was born. And so I lived with them for a bit of time before Sarah was born. And when she was born, I was really excited to be a big brother because I'd been the youngest until then. And my experience with our older siblings were similar to Sarah's, where they were the guest stars in my life, and only they came in and beat the shit out of me and then split. So it was. It was a very different kind of experience. And so I was really excited to be a Big sibling, but also have a presence in her life. And I really was looking forward to crafting some kind of ongoing relationship, and it didn't happen because of my own troubles with our father.
- [08:39]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And.
- [08:40]
Reverend Shawn Amos
And I ended up leaving Hawaii and sort of went down my own journey, so it got in the way. But it was always really important for me to not disappear on Sarah and to have her know that was there, even if it wasn't regularly. And I think over the years, we've just gotten closer and closer and closer and closer where I think we rely on each other in a lot of really fundamental ways.
- [09:05]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So I want to get the kind of family dynamic straight. So, Sean, our Reverend Shawn, you are the only child of your mother and your father.
- [09:13]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Correct.
- [09:14]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And then there are two older brothers who have your father and another mother. Correct. And then, Sarah, you are your father and your mother.
- [09:22]
Sarah Amos
Correct. And then there were two. Then there were two wives after my mother who had no children. And the last wife, he married, divorced, and remarried again. So it's a lot of family dynamics.
- [09:37]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:37]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Typical American family.
- [09:39]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I mean, you know, families look all kinds of different ways. For sure. That's definitely for sure. Got it.
- [09:45]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Okay.
- [09:46]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So it. It sounds like you had been excited to be a big brother, and then things happened, and you actually were not there to be the big brother that you dreamed about. But Sarah described you as being a regular character. So at what frequency were you all seeing one another?
- [10:00]
Sarah Amos
It was like, every couple of years. The thing that I will say that was great about Sean is when he did come to visit, I have, like, very specific memories. Like, he took me to an Alanis Morissette concert when I was, like, 13. And when he would come to town, he would always bring a new girlfriend. And I was always very excited about the girlfriends, and they were always very cool. I have these memories of when he would come to town, he would really be there, and he called a bit more than the other brothers. And I think also, just maybe dad was more still active in your drama, Shawn. So I think part of it also is I just had a better front row seat sometimes to some of the drama going on with you maybe, than Michael and Gregory. But there was a presence there. And then it was when I went to college that our relationship started to shift, and it's because both of us really made a concerted effort. I chose USC in Los Angeles in part because it was very close to my grandparents, but also in part because it was close to Sean. And we really made a concerted effort to see each Other on a very regular basis, even though I was a college freshman and sophomore. Right. And had this busy life. But like, we really, from then on always put our relationship as a priority. I feel like.
- [11:22]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I saw it as a big victory when she decided to come to LA for, for college. We're in the same town. That was a big deal for me. Yeah, I want to leverage that opportunity as much as possible. So. And I was starting a young family, me and my own family around that time or pretty soon thereafter. So she had a place to go to and. And she was sort of witnessing the launch of my own family. And. And so it was a good time. It was a good time. I think that was definitely a, a turning point. I could offer some, dispense some brotherly advice from time to time. And we also were starting to choose similar lines of work and that we're both getting in the entertainment space. And we've always been wired really similarly. We're both our father's work ethic and we really value the notion of just digging in deep to our work and being pretty fearless about throwing ourselves into new spaces. And so we had a lot in common. We had a lot to talk about and we had a lot of, you know, advice to share with each other and sort of were each other's. We've always been really big cheerleaders for each other. It's actually. Oh, good.
- [12:29]
Sarah Amos
It's really funny. I have to say this because people often assume, even though we're from different moms, that we're actually from the same mom. Because Sean and I are so wired the same in our work ethic, in our ocd, we actually look very similar to the point where people often will actually ask us like, oh, like, you guys must be really close in age, are you guys twins? And it is like a real testament to how well Shawn Amos is aging that people often think that 15 year age gap doesn't exist at all and we are just twin siblings. I've gotten that more than once from people. So I want to go on the record as being Shawn Amos skincare routine. But it is such a testament to like some of its nature and some of its nurture that, like our mothers are very, very different people and our upbringing was very different even though we had the same father. But something about our personalities are just like in lockstep with each other in a way that kind of drives the rest of the family insane.
- [13:30]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Like, I want to hear more about that, but I also want to hear what kinds of things have really helped you to cultivate this close relationship as adults because that is a very intentional choice. And it sounds like something that was important on both of your parts.
- [13:44]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
What things have helped you to really.
- [13:45]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Be intentional about creating this relationship with one another?
- [13:48]
Sarah Amos
Look, it hasn't always been perfect. I think we. We ebb and flow. I think we were really close during college. Then I moved when I was in college. Then I moved to New York. And we probably distance of physical space. We grew apart a little bit. And when my parents were going through a divorce and Sean was dealing with stuff with his own family. And I talk about this on the podcast. Like, I. I really took a step back from everyone in the family and was just kind of like, I'm going to do my own thing. Like, you guys all figure out your stuff. And I'm not saying that was the right decision, but it was the decision I made. And then circumstances brought us back together and Sean and I actually worked together for several years. But then as things continue to like we. We have fallen out again and come back together again. And I actually, I think the podcast in a lot of ways has actually resemented things for the two of us because I think part of. And I've never said this to Sean, so we'll see if he agrees with me or not. I think part of what we started to struggle with in the past couple years was it was just really hard for, I think both of us to have an honest conversation with the other one about what we were feeling. And I think that was somewhat true for, like, a lot of people in my family. It turns out, and for whatever reason, us Amos's are wired that if you put a microphone in front of us, we are very transparent people. And so I think a lot of things and conversations that we as a family should have had over the last several years we had during the making of this podcast. And part of that was also just our dad passing away. Right. And what that brings out of people. But I do think in the last year, Sean and I have become a lot closer because of the process of dealing with our dad's death, but also making this podcast and really having to go through the past and talk about things and. And talk about things that aren't even part of the podcast but are related to feelings that came up during the recording of the podcast. And it is. It's one of the things that I am most grateful for in actually even making it.
- [15:51]
Reverend Shawn Amos
What kept us together over the years was work. We are a family of workaholics and we are a family who finds it most ease. We're almost comfortable dealing with each other when it's a. When work is sort of the connective tissue that. When that's providing the lubricant. And so a lot of what kept us in touch and a lot of things that we were vibing on and feel like we're moving our relationship forward and bonding us was work. Like Sarah said, we worked together in the same company for a while and we had projects and. And if there's anything project related that, you know, Sarah needed a gut check on, still to this day, you know, she calls me up vice versa. And so that's like a real strong muscle for us. I think that the flip side of it, and Sarah alluded to it, was that just. I don't think that existed solely to avoid other stuff, but it's certainly. But it made it easy to avoid other stuff. And so there, there were definitely some personal resentments and misunderstandings and hurt feelings that were building up over the years. It wasn't even to say, like, on some level we knew it was happening and we made a conscious decision not to talk about it. I think that in some respects were so emotionally underdeveloped that we didn't even know, you know, it was happening. We should be speaking about it. It wasn't like we're consciously like, I'm not going to talk to her anymore. It was just something was. We couldn't even identify within ourselves. And. And yeah, the death of a parent will give you a lot of gifts as well as, you know, do a number on your head. And, and when our father died and even I, I was, even before that, he, when he, when his dementia came on and it was clear that Sarah and I were going to step up and do our best to manage that to our best of our abilities. That was really the beginning of, oh, we have like, a personal relationship renounced in addition to, like, working relationships with each other. And that was the beginning of both having different types of conversations that we didn't have and also working extra hard to avoid conversations at the same time. And so I think I would view that moment as like the turning point where, okay, we're talking about stuff other than work now and our relationship is about more than just our common love of. And our common approach to our professional lives. We've got this personal thing to deal with. And that made it even more. That began. That was a bit of a juggling act, I think, for us. And I don't know if we and it probably wasn't sustainable until his death. I think if you were still alive, we might have still been dancing around some stuff we shouldn't have been dancing around and. And then he passes away and the ball just shatters to the ground, right? And so you've got a lot of stuff to now you just can't avoid talking about anymore. And her podcast is absolutely, absolutely been a gift and a major vehicle for a lot of healing not only between us, but within the whole family.
- [18:51]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode Island.
- [19:54]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
All that?
- [19:55]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Plan your trip today@visitroadisland.com that's visit Rhode Island.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat and the hours it takes to blow dry your hair. I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair. It dries, stretches and smooths your hair all at once with way less heat, less damage and less time. Whether you're rocking coils, curls or kinks, Revair works with your texture, not against it. It's gentle, efficient and gives you that salon quality finish right at home. Imagine all the things you could get done in a day if you cut your styling time in half. With the holidays approaching, treat yourself or loved ones to healthier, shinier hair in a fraction of the time. Thousands of women are already loving the results and the time they are getting back in their day. And right now, Revair is offering their lowest price of the season so you can look your best at your holiday events. You can also become a member and earn points and rewards every time you shop. Visit myrevaire.com today to shop their holiday seal. That's myrevere.com your crown deserves it. Okay friends, real talk. You are worth the wait. We've all been there, giving our energy to connections that didn't honor ours and watching friends do the same. And honestly, we all deserve better. That's why Bumble is built for intentional dating. Safety is such a big deal for us all, especially when meeting new people. And Bumble gives you the peace of mind with options like photo and ID verification. That little extra step means you know the person you're talking to is who they say they are with their real photos and they are ready to show up authentically. And once you feel safe, you can actually focus on what matters. Finding someone who gets you with shared interests. It's easy to see right away who vibes with your passions, whether that's true crime, podcasts, yoga mornings, or weekend hikes. So take a pause, affirm your worth and protect your peace. Bumble helps you create safe, meaningful connections. The kind that truly respect your boundaries, your energy and your time. Thinking about dating again? Take this as your sign. Start your love story on Bumble. Looking for a getaway? Escape the everyday Reconnect and celebrate family in a place that's made for unforgettable moments. Orlando. From over the top resorts and holiday magic to 10 of the world's top theme parks, including the new Universal Epic Universe, Orlando is the perfect family vacation destination. And if you're looking for cultural experiences, Orlando offers something for every generation. Explore rich history, savor diverse cuisine and enjoy neighborhood events that honor heritage and community. Whether it's a weekend escape or a full on family reunion, Orlando welcomes you with open arms, warm weather and deals that make planning easy. So gather your crew, pack your matching T shirts and fall into family fun. Orlando is calling and your next great family memory is just a trip away. Find seasonal deals and build your itinerary@visitorlando.com to start planning your trip today.
- [23:04]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So one of the things that families often struggle with is caregiving, right? So somebody becomes ill in the family and there's this discussion or maybe lack of discussion amongst the siblings about like who is stepping up and like what everybody's responsibility is going to be. And it sounds like you said Reverend Shawn, that you and Sarah kind of said like okay, this is going to be on us.
- [23:25]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I wonder what was that conversation like with your siblings?
- [23:28]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Or was there a conversation around where everybody's responsibility was going to be in terms of caregiving?
- [23:33]
Reverend Shawn Amos
I think this is Sarah's story to tell more than mine. But I think that we talked about the outset, you know, our typical American family that has if four siblings from three marriages. And, and I think that the, the challenges of a family like that, it makes all conversations very easy to avoid and it makes all conversations pretty tenuous. So there's no family meetings, there's no like sitting around the table together. And yeah, that doesn't exist at all. So I think it's a lot, lot of it is part of, it's like everyone looking at, you're going to do it, you're going to do it, you're going to do it. It's a lot of waiting for someone to step up in some respects. I think a lot of it is. I think I'm going to set Sarah up now. I think Sarah has had something to prove for a long time and she talked about this in the podcast. She had something to prove as being the best kid. And by best mean the kid who's going to step up for her father, despite whatever challenges she may have had with him, who's. My brothers and I have all had periods of time we have not spoken with our father where the pain or the disruption, our relationship has been too great. And Sarah was going to be the perfect kid. And I think being the perfect kid meant there was no doubt she was. She wasn't going to do anything but step up and take this role. And I think to some degree I joined in her in that because it was the big brother role that I wanted to play. It's like going back to the beginning. I'm going to be her big brother and I'm not going to let her go to anything alone that I can help. And she's got a husband, she's got a family of her own, but there's a role of a big brother. And, and so I viewed, I sort of put my feelings aside to make sure that she wasn't doing this alone. But I think, I think a lot of it was fueled by her wanting to play this part that she's been wanting to play for a long time. Sarah, what do you think?
- [25:21]
Sarah Amos
Yeah, no, look, I. Look, I think this is one of the main reasons I wanted to make the podcast. And what I hope is one of the things that people find the most useful about it. And actually I've already heard from people listening to just the first couple episodes, which doesn't even get like this. This part of the family drama really comes towards the end of the podcast in, in episodes five and six. But I think Sean is spot on. Right. I, I had always kind of played the role of dutiful daughter. And in my mind being a good caregiver, being a good daughter, being a good family member meant that you told a person you love them, that you always took their calls, that you tried to provide for them financially. Right? That you made the choices, that made sure they were okay. And I think in the process of making this podcast I've learned two very important things. One is that yes, all of those things are important, but if there isn't real intention and meaning and emotional connection behind it, then it is also to some degree performative. And when your parent passes away, you can feel that you've done all the right things. But if you don't have the conversations, if you don't really work on your relationship with them, then you might realize that you gave a form of caregiving, but you did not perhaps take, give exactly the right form of caregiving for what you intended or want once they have passed. I think the second thing that I learned in making this podcast and in just in the last several years of our lives, in dealing with what we dealt with, my dad and our family, is that there is, we are so good at the early stages of life.
- [27:10]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
We.
- [27:11]
Sarah Amos
There are a major million manuals on how to raise a baby. You can find 37 different like technique books alone on sleep training, but you can barely find five well recommended books on how to take care of an elderly patient, an elderly parent with dementia. And I think like we as a society focus so much on the early years of life that we have completely forgotten about the later years. And it is hard to take care of an aging parent and it is hard to suddenly find yourself in the role of parenting your own parent. And it is hard for your parent to suddenly be parented by their children. That is a hit to an ego and a self that like I now in putting myself in my dad's shoes, like understand is difficult and is, is not something that everyone is going to accept when with grace and, and how everyone deals with being a caregiver is different. And how two of our brothers needed to deal with it both emotionally and financially was very different than what Sean and I could give and we all just accepted that from each other. But I, I do think people just aren't prepared for parents getting old and they're not prepared for how much work it's going to be. Both, both financially, both just labor wise and then also emotionally. And I think this podcast for me has allowed me to Let go, at least in part, not entirely yet of some of the guilt I realized I was holding when our dad died that I felt about some of the choices I made along the way that were choices that I at the time thought I was making with the best of intentions, but in retrospect realized I was making, you know, for not always the right reason. And so it is, it has been a process, working through what was the process of caregiving, the word performative, the so perfect, right.
- [29:20]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Like what you do sort of as a performative act versus giving has so many different layers to it. Right then there she was talking as you were talking. Sarah's thinking about as just like any unresolved baggage you got with your parent will come back to bite you in the ass when they're towards the end of their lives. If you've got unchecked things you're pissed off about or hurt about or abandonment issue, whatever it is, it all comes right to the surface and it starts to inform your caregiving on some level, whether you know it or not. And so when people talk about, you know, the care that caregivers need and a lot of that emphasis is on making sure that they're eating properly themselves and getting proper rest and getting a break. And so the physical, grueling nature of it, it's emotional piece too. It's like, you know, you're sitting there next to an 80 something year old parent and as you're sitting next to him, you know, you're a five year old kid sitting next to him. That's deep. And so it is the emotional and the psychological support too that's needed along the way because I think there are certainly times, I think when we were absolutely doing our best, but we were probably at times doing our best as, as kids, you know, versus adults because we were thrown back and to an older time that we hadn't really dealt with.
- [30:40]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You both have referenced the issues that you feel like really came to a head after your father's passing that you, Sarah, talked about feeling like has helped you to become closer. Is there any conversation or maybe difficult conversation that you all had that you feel like really led to like, oh, this unlocked a new level to our relationship that you'd feel comfortable sharing.
- [31:02]
Sarah Amos
I mean actually, and look, you'll, you'll hear this conversation play out in the last episode of the podcast which really deals with the end of, of our dad's life. I think it was really helpful for me to talk to my brothers about how I was frustrated when our dad was in A coma and was in the icu and I was there by myself. And it wasn't me saying, I'm mad at you and I want you to apologize, but it was me feeling better just being able to voice that by being there and being by myself and understanding why they weren't there. For a variety of reasons, it did still take me back to being that little girl who was growing up in Hawaii by herself and like felt like she had family but didn't. And it wasn't. Again, it wasn't about needing anyone to say anything or apologize or change anything, but it was just really nice to be able to voice that, have them hear it and like have that just be a real conversation that we could have and sit in and like experience together. I think that was really key to bringing us all closer.
- [32:19]
Reverend Shawn Amos
I think we're still learning and not even still, I think we're just now learning how to be a family. I think we have very. This is very new for all of us because we all grew up in three because our older brothers are part of the same, not the same biological mother. We four kids grew up in three separate homes, is only children. And like Sarah said perfectly at the top of this thing, you know, we're all guest stars in each other's lives and in this idea of what family means is a new concept. And we've all made our attempts to start our own families, to have our do overs bring into our lives as adults. We didn't have as children to varying degrees of success. But as far as each other, this blood family, it's new. And so we're still figuring it out. And I think there's a lot of only children acting a certain way, right? And on doing those kinds of habits since Sarah's podcast, like we had a father who buys owned administration mission, put himself first and put his career first and put his desires first, as many successful people do of all career types and all race, creed and nationalities. But you learn from that, right? You learn, you know, how to throw in the towel when things get rough and you learn how to have a be okay if you're going to put your thing about someone else's and how to dip out when things get a little comfortable. And you know, I think we're all learning how to trust that we will all be there for each other regardless of how tough it gets and regardless how tough the conversation gets and that we can have tough conversations and still be okay. That's new for us.
- [34:06]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know, Reverend Sean, you described kind of being a Workaholic as a family trait, Right? Like that. That is something that is really of value, that has become a part of your family. But I also. Not always valuable, but not always valuable, but definitely there. But I also hear you saying that, you know, that dad kind of shared, like, hey, this kind of was my priority.
- [34:26]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I wonder what hearing him talk about.
- [34:28]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
That has maybe, if anything, has it shifted your relationship to work for both of you, given that, you know, you kind of see maybe some of the not so great sides of kind of work always being the priority.
- [34:40]
Reverend Shawn Amos
There's a great moment in her podcast when her husband Greg talks about Sarah always being on her phone, you know, at events and just. And not. Not being present. And Sarah. And as he is saying it to Sarah, Sarah's, like, realizing this in real time, like, never even dawned on her until this moment. I had the exact same moment. Mine wasn't recorded for a podcast. It's a safe space, man. Yeah, it's a safe space. It's a space where. Where we can control things. It's a space where we feel like we're being of service. And it's one of the great. It's one of those sort of most insidious isms, right? Because if you're an alcohol, if you have alcoholism or, you know, drug addiction, it's obvious how it's going to screw things up. The evidence is all over the place. But if you're a workaholic, hey, you're providing for your family. You know, this out pays for the vacations and the rent and the blah, blah, blah. So it's a hard one to. To give grief about on some level. Right. But it's a great way to avoid stuff, and it's a great way to avoid the hard stuff. So I am still a recovering workaholic. Yeah. What do you think, my workaholic sister?
- [35:46]
Sarah Amos
Look, our dad instilled in us and talked to us about the importance of working hard and doing your best, but so much of what we learned from him in terms of a workaholic nature was never a conversation we had with him. It is what we saw. Right? He traveled 75% of the year. When I was a kid in Hawaii, most of my memories of him were picking him up from the airport or dropping him off at the airport. So it starts less with even the conversations you have and more with the actions you show. And your kids pick that up from day one. And Sean is spot on. And look, it is one of the. It is one of the things I am most grateful for in the podcast, but certainly not. One of the things I set out to discover when I started is how much I was turning into my father without me even realizing it. Right. And it took my lovely, patient, wonderful husband and others to start to describe me back to myself and realize, oh, wow, there's a lot of Wall E in here inadvertently. But it is an every everyday conversations. Shawna, spot on. It is an everyday conversation of me checking myself often how it is.
- [37:03]
Reverend Shawn Amos
And you want the hit man, right? I mean, it's like, it's like a societal thing, right? We're all just wired from more, more, more, more and more. And, you know, Sarah's made this podcast and it's a beautiful piece of work. And of course she's gonna do everything she can do to promote it, and she should. And, and so, you know, and then you get trained to think like every offer, you get the last offer that may come around and you got to jump at everything. And we're just conditioned to, you know, to say yes to everything. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a. It's a daily negotiation. It is. It is a daily negotiation.
- [37:35]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life. Partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island, all that. Plan your trip today@visitroadisland.com that's visitroadisland.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat, and the hours it takes to blow dry your hair. I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair. It dries, stretches, and smooths your hair all at once with way less heat, less damage, and less time. Whether you're rocking coils, curls or kinks. Revair works with your texture, not against it. It's gentle, efficient and gives you that salon quality finish right at home.
- [39:15]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Imagine all the things you could get.
- [39:16]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Done in a day if you cut your styling time in half. With the holidays approaching, treat yourself or loved ones to healthier, shinier hair in a fraction of the time. Thousands of women are already loving the results and the time they are getting back in their day. And right now Revair is offering their lowest price of the season so you can look your best at your holiday events. You can also become a member and earn points and rewards every time you shop. Visit myraver.com today to shop their holiday sale. That's myraver.com your crown deserves it. Okay friends, real talk. You are worth the wait. We've all been there, giving our energy to connections that didn't honor ours and watching friends do the same. And honestly, we all deserve better. That's why Bumble is built for intentional dating. Safety is such a big deal for us all, especially when meeting new people. And Bumble gives you the peace of mind with options like photo and ID verification. That little extra step means you know the person you're talking to is who they say they are with their real photos and they are ready to show up authentically. And once you feel safe, you can actually focus on what matters. Finding someone who gets you with shared interests. It's easy to see right away who vibes with your passions, whether that's true crime, podcasts, yoga mornings, or weekend hikes. So take a pause, affirm your worth and protect your peace. Bumble helps you create safe, meaningful connections. The kind that truly respect your boundaries, your energy and your time. Thinking about dating again? Take this as your sign. Start your love story on Bumble. Looking for a getaway? Escape the everyday. Reconnect and celebrate family in a place that's made for unforgettable moments. Orlando from over the top resorts and holiday magic to 10 of the world's top theme parks, including the new Universal Epic Universe, Orlando is the perfect family vacation destination. And if you're looking for cultural experiences, Orlando offers something for every generation. Explore rich history, savor diverse cuisine, and enjoy neighborhood events that honor heritage and community. Whether it's a weekend escape or a full on family reunion, Orlando welcomes you with open arms, warm weather and deals that make planning easy. So gather your crew, pack your matching T shirts and fall into family fun. Orlando is calling and your next great family memory is just a trip away. Find seasonal deals and build your itinerary@visitorlando.com to start planning your trip today.
- [41:49]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So, Sarah, you have kind of talked about there being a family culture of not talking about things, you know, publicly, yet you have now, as some if seen, convince your brothers to do this very public podcast. Was that a hard sell? And talk about, like, how the podcast and the making of the podcast has impacted your relationship with your siblings.
- [42:08]
Sarah Amos
It was not a hard sell at all, and I am very grateful and will always appreciate that fact. I called each of my brothers individually and asked them if they were cool with me doing this. And I called my mom, too, and I said, if everyone isn't okay with this, I won't do it. And everyone was entirely supportive from the first moment. And Sean was so supportive that he also provided his deep catalog of music, which is actually what the entire podcast is scored to. And the theme song is one of my favorite songs by Sean. So Sean went above and beyond in helping. But no, I think this, this podcast only worked if everyone in the family was. Was open to it and willing to be a part of it. Because at the end of the day, this was as much about kind of helping cement the right type of legacy for not just our dad, but our family as it was about me just working through stuff. And I can't work through stuff if no one in the family wants to work through it with me, then it's just me talking into a void. And God bless, no one needs that. So everyone was spot on from day one. And then it was really just about doing, doing the work. Right. And digging in and having the conversations. And again, that was really my family stepping up and not just having the. To say what we were talking about. The performative conversation. Right. There's a version of these interviews that could have been really just surface and really just like, let's talk about the things that are already out there. Let's talk about the polite stuff. But instead, like, all of my family really went to places that were uncomfortable and talked about things that have hurt and chaos and trauma associated with them and did so in beautiful ways. And that is a huge gift that they all graciously gave to me.
- [44:12]
Reverend Shawn Amos
There's such a media landscape now that rewards and presumes that these types of, you know, behind the scenes, you know, revelations will all be exploitative or they'll. It's about selling scores or retribution or this kind of thing or that they. The motives are about money or about gore settling. And it's such a tribute to our father that, like, none of his sins are so great that we don't all want to be standing together and saying what an amazing dude he was and that he had his challenges, like we all do. Some of them are so easy to understand. If you know anything about black America, and if you know anything, anything about men in black America, Great phrase. I learned about we are. We. We are guilty but not to blame. And he is guilty of much, but if you know anything about his life and where he came from, he is so not to blame. And I think the greatest testament to him is that these four kids from three marriages, you know, consider themselves family and wanted to come together and tell a story about their father that would heal themselves and hopefully help others heal. And it's just. It's. To me, Sarah has put together, like, the greatest tribute possible to him.
- [45:41]
Sarah Amos
Thanks, Sean. It's also funny, I want to say we're a very funny family. And so I think we've talked a lot about the emotions and the struggles, and all of that is very real. But we are also a hilarious bunch of people. And so we honor our dad, who was also very funny when he wanted to be in this podcast. It is a mix of tears and laughter in a way that, like, is what I love about the Amos family. We can all cry one moment and then bust out laughing the next. And that is what I think a great family is.
- [46:15]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Yeah, it's really. It's about resilience. Yeah. I mean, he was a resilient dude, for sure. I think black Americans are some of the most resilient people on earth, and I think that we are profoundly resilient family, and I think, hopefully that's all of service to people.
- [46:35]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So, Sarah, I read a piece from you, and you both have already talked about how therapeutic it was to complete the podcast, which you talked about, like, oh, these are probably also things that should be about talking, talking to my therapist about. And I'm curious about the role that therapy has played in both of your maybe individual lives, but maybe even in your relationship as siblings.
- [46:54]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Yeah, Sarah, talk about the role therapy's played in your life.
- [46:57]
Sarah Amos
I can now very firmly say, I am finally going to therapy.
- [47:06]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Breaking news, breaking news on the Dr. Joy podcast. Amos finally, finally is going to therapy.
- [47:16]
Sarah Amos
I'm dabbling. I'm dabbling. Look, in the first episode of the podcast, very much ends with me asking my husband, do you think I should go to therapy? And him trying politely to be like, yes, love of God, please. So now I'm going to a therapist.
- [47:33]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Have you actually made an Appointment with the therapist.
- [47:35]
Sarah Amos
I've had several appointments already. I've had three appointments already. I have my next appointment on Friday and I don't know, man, I'm at the beginning of this journey. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes and how I feel. It's going to help me. But I'm very proud of myself that like I've gotten to this point in the journey also. And this is like a testament to how much more developed my 9 year old daughter is than I am. I told her, I was like, I've made an appointment to go see a therapist. And she goes, woo, good for you. I've already been seeing one. Like, she was so deeply unimpressed with your kid making an appointment. She was like, okay, good for you.
- [48:21]
Reverend Shawn Amos
But quintessential New York child.
- [48:23]
Sarah Amos
Yeah. I am happy I'm doing it. I think it's going to be great for me. I should have done it sooner. I fully, fully admit it. And people should not be afraid of therapy. Or more importantly, people should make time for therapy. That was my thing. I was never afraid of it. It was just my workaholic nature. No, I really do think it was my workaholic nature was like, I know what's wrong with me. I don't need someone to fix it. I am fully functional without fixing it. This is too low of a priority. I don't recognize. I now recognize that like, that may not be healthy.
- [49:02]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Yeah, that's also not called.
- [49:03]
Sarah Amos
Sean, what's your relationship with therapy?
- [49:06]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Long and hard. Long, hard, arduous. And I'll be back tomorrow.
- [49:14]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
We love a standing appointment.
- [49:15]
Reverend Shawn Amos
When you've got a father like mine and, and a mother like mine, therapy is the first, second and last destination. So yes, lots of therapy that is just been, you know, essential glue. Told me together over the years for sure.
- [49:35]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So I'm aware as you both were talking that, you know, of course sibling relationships is a special kind of relationship, but I think that cousins are also a very special relationship. So I'd love to hear maybe how are you being intentional about like cultivating the cousin relationship for your kids?
- [49:50]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Cousins. Oh God.
- [49:53]
Sarah Amos
So our kids are very, very close. So as Sean alluded when I started college, he had just had his first kid and his daughter is now in her 20s and lives in New York. And I mean, is, is so close to my daughter that like they're borderline siblings depending on the day.
- [50:17]
Reverend Shawn Amos
Yeah, it's beautiful.
- [50:18]
Sarah Amos
And I think I was a very intentional aunt to all three of his kids and really Made a point even when I moved to New York to be present. And my husband and I had been together for 20 years, so he's been a very intentional uncle since day one. And so I do think for Sean and I, we've really made sure that our kids have a deep cousin relationship. And I actually think in recent years, we've been trying to be better with our oldest brother Michael and his kids. I think that cousin relationship there actually probably drifted more than it should have, even with us, just as. As aunts and uncles and I, you know, we were on a chain, actually, with one of Michael's kids last week, making dinner plans coming up. And I do see. Think again. It's this great irony, right? Sometimes it takes someone passing to bring the rest of a family together. But when my. When our dad passed, we had a memorial in New York, and a lot of the family, some of whom we hadn't seen in 15, 20 years, we all came together for it. And I think we all are trying to be much more intentional about being in each other's lives in a way that, to be blunt, we. We just net. We never have in the past.
- [51:43]
Reverend Shawn Amos
There's a wonderful moment when Sarah was recording the podcast, and she calls me up from a subway platform and says, we're from Gambia. We're from Gambia. I'm like, what? We're from Gambia. What are you talking about? Dad's side of the family. It's from Gambia. And she found out this information doing an interview with one of our cousins for the podcast who had been sitting on a ton of family history for ages. And none of us knew because we just haven't talked to one another ever. It's unlocking, literally our family history, this renewed relationship, and a finer point on the. On the memorial service, we. We. We made a point. We. We asked all of our kids to. So, Michael, our oldest brother's children, my children, Sarah's daughter, to speak at the top of the memorial service and to welcome everyone. And it was the first time that they had all stood together. It was the first time someone had ever met. And that was a real powerful binding agent, and it was purposeful. And, you know, we very much have wanted to, you know, set this new trajectory for our family where there's pride in the family name, there's pride in the family history, there's awareness of the family history to begin with. And that this goes back to I said earlier about, you know, learning how to be a family. Right. Because I think we've all been raised to believe that we're all lone wolves, right? We're in the loan and we got this, you know, fight for its ours. And we all come from these broken homes and you know, and yada yada and really it's like, can we retrain ourselves to believe that we are more powerful together? You know, that this, this, this series of broken families and halves and steps and sort of dead end family clues. We pull all those broken pieces together and create this one strong family that, that can provide for each other emotionally and in all these different ways. And I think that's a new experiment for us. But it, it seems to be, it seems to be going well so far. And now that Sarah's in therapy, God knows what's. Sky's the limit.
- [54:01]
Sarah Amos
Sky's the limit. It's gonna be great.
- [54:06]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Well, it has been such a treat to learn more about both of you and your family. I know that you will enjoy checking out the podcast and hearing even more. Sarah, please tell us where we can.
- [54:16]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Stay connected with you and where can we check out the podcast? Podcast?
- [54:19]
Sarah Amos
You can check out the podcast anywhere that you get podcasts. Apple, Spotify, Audible, Tough Cookie, the Wally Famous Amos Story. New episodes out every Wednesday, six episodes in total. It is a great time. And you can find me, I mean, hosting that podcast. I don't have a massive social presence, so you can find me there or maybe on Twitter, but I don't really tweet, so I don't know. Just listen to the podcast that find me in the ether.
- [54:47]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Got it. And Reverend Tron, where can we check out your music and any other projects that you have going on?
- [54:51]
Reverend Shawn Amos
You can find my music anywhere you listen to music. Apple, Spotify, Bandcamp, title or wherever you listen to music. Probably find some physical copies in record stores here and there. You can find me@shawnamos.com S H A W N A M L S.com Perfect.
- [55:10]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
We'll be sure to include all of that in the show notes. Thank you both for spending some time with me today. I appreciate it.
- [55:16]
Reverend Shawn Amos
So great. Thanks a lot.
- [55:17]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Thank you.
- [55:18]
Sarah Amos
This has been wonderful.
- [55:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I'm so glad that Sarah and Reverend Shawn were able to join us for this conversation. I'm very happy that we have concluded our sibling sit down series where we are celebrating connection, memory and the beautiful bonds that shape who we are. To learn more about them and their work, be sure to visit the show notes@thristyforblackgirls.com session 4, 3, 7. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you had topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory. Don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our patreon channel@community.therapy for black girls.com for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis Indechiwoo and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we wanted to be. Degree Holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island all that. Plan your trip today@Visit Rhode Island.com that's Visit Rhode Island.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat and the hours it takes to blow dry, I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair. It dries, stretches and smooths your hair all at once. With way less heat, less damage and less time, Revair will be your new best friend. And right now, Revair is offering their lowest price of the season. So treat yourself to healthy hair and get more time back in your day. Visit my Revair.com today to shop their holiday sale. That's MyRaver.com your crown deserves it. This episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com SapphireReserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. No one's journey is the same. That's why Delta SkyMiles moves with you. From earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping and things you do every day to connecting you to new experiences, A Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you you. It's more than travel, it's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides and arrives with you. Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. Learn more@delta.com SkyMiles this is an iHeart podcast.