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- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For for more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining us for session 438 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. This is an I Heart Podcast Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges but also incredible strength. Especially for those living with conditions like Myasthenia gravis or MG and chronic inflammatory Demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as cidp, finding empowerment in the community is critical. Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places. Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Today I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts, and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu. need to get away, escape the everyday, reconnect and celebrate in a place that's made for unforgettable moments. Orlando. From over the top resorts and holiday magic to 10 of the world's top theme parks, Orlando is the perfect vacation destination for all. And no matter who you are or where you come from, Orlando welcomes you with open arms. So gather your crew and pack your matching T shirts. Orlando is calling and your next great memory is just a trip away. Plan your trip@visitorlando.com and discover why Orlando truly is for all. Does reaching your fitness goals faster and more effortlessly appeal to you? Short Answer Duh. That's what the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton IQ does. Peloton IQ creates personalized plans, counts reps, coach, corrects your form and recommends classes with instructors who match your style. The Tread plus is all about a well rounded routine. You can go from cardio to stretching with a spin of the swivel screen. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push go. Explore the new peloton cross training tread plus@1peloton.com mental wellness and financial security go hand in hand. But for women in Nigeria, the barriers to opportunity are steep. 98% can't access formal credit. That means no bank accounts, no capital, no clear path forward. You can change that with Heifer International. When you donate to Heifer's microloan impact fund, 100% of your gift goes to women entrepreneurs, helping them access capital to grow their farms and businesses. Support a woman's journey to stability and self reliance. Fund a loan today at heifer. That's H E-F E R.org Sisterhood. As we head into the holidays, many of us will encounter old memories and create new ones. You may spend time recounting stories from your childhood, learning a new line dance, or even taking orders in the kitchen on how to make a family recipe. Memory keeping has long been a practice for humans across the globe, but for Black people, those traditions look different. And in the age of technology, the way memories are created, stored and used introduce a new set of questions around who gets to call them their own? Today, I'm excited to be joined by Dr. Tanya Sutherland, currently a professor and dean at UCLA. She's dedicated her research to unpacking the uniqueness of Black memory work, and in her book Resurrecting the Black Body Race and the Digital Afterlife, she digs into how technology, history and data longevity affect how we practice archivism and how those practices impact our digital afterlives. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession. Or join us over in our Patreon to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.
- [05:56]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Sutherland.
- [05:59]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
It is an absolute pleasure to be here and it's Tanya, please.
- [06:03]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Oh, Tanya. Got it, got it. So I wonder if you can start by just giving us a definition of your work. So what do you mean when you talk about black memory work and black digital afterlives?
- [06:15]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Wow, thank you. What an important question and a perfect place to begin. When we talk about digital afterlives, we're really talking about the data that's collected by us, for us, about us. That includes anything from our social media to our email, to our communications, such as text messages, instant messages, right? All of this content that we're producing in our own personal lives, and then the actual data, bits and bytes. When you take a photograph, the metadata from that gets collected on your phone. So if you have an iPhone, right, that information then goes to Apple. They're collecting that data and that metadata. They're collecting the time of the photograph, the location of the photograph, some information, some other information about the image itself. And increasingly, with the use of AI, that includes some maybe sort of description about what might appear in the image. This is sort of a new added layer of what is being collected and noted. And then when you pass away, the question becomes, what is done with all of this data? And so in many ways, we have what I have termed digital afterlife, where all of this data and our digital detritus lives on after we do. And we have very little say in terms of what is done with that data, how it's used, how it might be manipulated. There are, as we know now, digital resurrection and other kinds of digital immortality practices. All of these things get tied up in what we mean when we say a digital afterlife. When I talk about black memory work, I'm looking at all of the potential harms that can be served up by a digital afterlife. And I'm looking to black memory work, which really describes a long history, robust history of practices within black communities, diasporic communities across the globe that are about preserving memory in ways that make sense to us. And in some ways, I think about black memory work as a corrective or as an alternative path to a digital afterlife. Something more intentional. Right. Something that we craft for ourselves.
- [08:49]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Can you talk about, like, what inspired.
- [08:51]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You and like what interested you in this work and how it inspired the writing of your book?
- [08:56]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
I had been thinking about this in some way, shape or form since my childhood. I was distressed as a child to see the Save the Children campaign. Do you remember this? On television commercials for evening tv, there would be pictures of ostensibly starving children. And they would show. It was always black children. They always had very distended bellies what we would now probably refer to colloquially as poverty porn. Right? We were looking at black babies in distress. And as a child, I remember being struck by how it only ever was kids who looked like me. And it didn't make sense to me as a child. I didn't have a language or reference points really to understand what I was seeing or to make sense of it or even to sort of contend with it. And then when Hurricane Katrina happened, I was immediately taken back to those pictures, to those commercials, to those ads, to that entire ad campaign. And I thought, we are seeing dead people who look like me on television once again. Now on the Internet as well, in the overflowing waters of Lake Pontchartrain, right? We are once again looking at images of black people's bodies in distress, deceased. And it's being presented to us as something that we should take in, again, any real context. We aren't given tools with which to process what we're seeing. And I thought, there's got to be a reason that it's always people who look like me. And that reason can't just be racism. What else is at play here? And so that sort of became the center of the inquiry for my book Resurrecting the Black Body, which is about race and the digital afterlife, and really explores these questions in depth.
- [10:54]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And what are some of the most common practices of black memory work that we may not even realize that we're practicing?
- [11:00]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Oh, my gosh, I love this question. So we are very creative. When I say we, right now I'm talking about the Black Memory Collective, which is a small community based organization that I'm the founder and director of. And when we talk about black memory work, the kinds of practices that we first started talking about and seeing were things like quilts, right? It was. We understand memory to be braided in someone's hair as a route to freedom. We understand black memory work to be quilting. We understand black memory work in a way that other people might not recognize it. Other people might call someone a hoarder, for example. And that's not to say that there aren't issues around hoarding, but it is to say that when you have been dispossessed of your physical belongings repeatedly over generations, there's something to that, holding onto things, right? That is about a memory process, a memory ritual, a memory practice, right? If you're not out here hoarding or braiding hair or quilting, don't think you're not doing black memory work. Certainly our photographs and the things that we might Find in the boxes under our beds. That's black memory work. And then in an even more expansive way, we are finding that the way that folks show up for one another in community is also about a memory practice or a memory ritual. It's about building memory. And that memory then gets held in community. And I think that's a lot of it. Right. Just the ways that we are showing up in community and asking one another to hold the things for ourselves, for our communities, all of that. All of that counts as black memory work.
- [12:52]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know, as you're talking, Tanya, I'm thinking about this large black leather purse that my grandmother had that had all of these photos. And every time I would go home for, like, holidays, like, I'm going straight to this purse to, like, ask my aunts and uncles, like, tell me about this picture. Who was this? And really wanting to, like, understand, like, why there was these. These collection of photos. It also makes me think about how important it was to my grandmother that anytime she went to a funeral, she had to have a program. Right. And then would come back from the funeral and, like, put it in the back of her Bible. Right. And so it feels like as a culture, like, as a community, it feels like we have been doing this black memory work, even if we weren't calling it that.
- [13:32]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. It's in our art. It's literally woven into the fabrics of our culture. Yeah.
- [13:39]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So.
- [13:39]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So what are some of the image.
- [13:41]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I love it.
- [13:41]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
I just. Yeah. Have you ever thought of a big black bag full of black memory?
- [13:47]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. I need to figure out where that person is so that that doesn't get, like, displaced and like, you know, we always kind of have an eye on where that is and who has ownership of that. So what are some of the differences between black memory practices and maybe more widespread, like, Western archival practices?
- [14:02]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Thank you so much for asking this question. So in a brick and mortar archives, what you will find is that there are papers, and those paper go in boxes, and those boxes go on shelves, and there are processes through which things may cross the archival threshold or enter the archives. There are high level descriptive practices, high level discovery practices, high level access practices that really are about ensuring the longevity of those materials and the condition of them in that very specific way. And for the most part, the brick and mortar archives that exist in the United States were created to document the dominant culture. Right. The ways that we tend to show up in those archives is in newspapers, in databases of runaway slave ads, the institutions that hold Those archives have not traditionally made it their agenda, their goal, or their policy to document black life. And if they do, what they're documenting is the Save the Children campaign and the bodies in Lake Pontchartrain. They're documenting trauma, death, and disposition. Black memory work does the exact opposite of that. It starts with us. It starts from the bottom. It. It holds us. It is generative. It shifts. It doesn't have to stay static. There's no demand that it be accessible. Broadly, widely accessible in so many ways. They are side by side practices that almost have nothing to do with one another. Right. Because the goals aren't the same. The practices and the policies aren't the same. They can speak to one another. They could influence one another. Certainly black memory workers who call themselves such often are trained as archivists. So they come with the knowledge of how to preserve materials. What they're doing with that knowledge isn't just preserving materials, putting them in a box on a shelf and saying, hey, come and visit my brick and mortar archives to visit your stuff. They're saying, I know how to preserve this. Let me show you. Let me teach you. Let me help you. And so it's also a knowledge practice in a way and a generational one, in a different way than institutional brick and mortar archives like the National Archives or even the Library of Congress or. I mean, even your local repository or university archives may hold. They are set about to do sort of different things.
- [16:49]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And what do you feel like is the goal of black memory work then, if it's a different goal, like you said, than archiving?
- [16:57]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Yeah, I think what I've observed, what I've heard people say, is that we need to preserve our memory. No one else is doing that for us. And we're going to do it in a way that is intentionally black. And so that shows up differently. Right. We show up differently in intentionally black spaces. The work is done differently in intentionally black spaces. And I want to be really clear that not everyone who is a black memory worker. Right again, your grandmother is a black memory worker. That bag, that's black memory work. So it doesn't matter that she didn't have a master's degree in library and information studies or science. Right. I assume she did not, anyway. No, neither of my grandmothers did either. And I would absolutely call both of them black memory workers. I think the purpose and the goal for us is about preservation of memory. It's also about preservation of cultural heritage. And there's a certain protective layer, I want to say, for future generations that's very intentional there too.
- [18:01]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. Today, I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our life to where we want it to. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode Island.
- [19:30]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
All that.
- [19:31]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Plan your trip today at visitroadisland.com that's visitroadisland.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat and the hours it takes to blow dry. I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair. It dries, stretches and smooths your hair all at once. With way less heat, less damage and less time. Revair will be your new best friend. And right now, Revair is offering their lowest price of the season.
- [19:57]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Season.
- [19:58]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So treat yourself to healthy hair and get more time back in your day. Visit myraver.com today to shop their holiday sale. That's myraver.com your crown deserves it. If you're like me, you're busy. Especially this time of year. Way too busy to make time for a workout that doesn't deliver results. But the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton iq, always delivers. It's the most elevated equipment Peloton has made. You will get a serious workout every time. Peloton IQ has features like personalized plans, goal setting and weight suggestions to keep pushing you forward. The new movement tracking camera counts your reps and corrects your form. It's pretty much a personal trainer by itself. On top of that, it offers class records with instructors who match your vibe to help you take it to the next level. It's just so easy to build a well rounded routine like you can do a 45 minute run on the tread plus, then a 5 minute stretch off it with a spin of the swivel screen or yoga or pilates. So easy. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, Go explore the new peloton cross training Tread plus@onepelaton.com Looking for a getaway? Escape the everyday Reconnect and celebrate family in a place that's made for unforgettable moments.
- [21:21]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Orlando.
- [21:22]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
From over the top resorts and holiday magic to 10 of the world's top theme parks, including the new Universal Epic Universe, Orlando is the perfect family vacation destination. And if you're looking for cultural experiences, Orlando offers something for every generation. Explore rich history, savor diverse cuisine, and enjoy neighborhood events that honor heritage and community. Whether it's a weekend escape or a full on family reunion, Orlando welcomes you with open arms, warm weather, and deals that make planning easy. So gather your crew, pack your matching T shirts and fall into family fun. Orlando is calling and your next great family memory is just a trip away. Find seasonal deals and build your itinerary@visitorlando.com to start planning your trip today.
- [22:12]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And so is it, Tanya, a more personal kind of like, okay, it is for my family to preserve the history of our family, not necessarily for me to like learn about your family. Because that's kind of what it feels like. It's like, oh, with archiving, like you can go visit like a library or museum and like learn more. This feels like it is a more personal thing, maybe for your community. Well, definitely your direct family, but maybe also your community that is still like close to the family.
- [22:38]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Absolutely. I would say that's true. And I would also say that in terms of concentric circles of community and how we build and how we live and work with one another, there are many sort of points of possible or potential interaction with other people's historical memories. Right. I know that ancestry has become a very popular site. I have my own issues with it. But part of what it's done is help people who otherwise couldn't even make those family connections be able to make those family connections. So I think black memory work serves a similar function as well. Inasmuch as, you know, you are telling a story and you mention a name and the next thing you know it's, oh, I have a picture of him and it's through its storytelling is also a really key element of black memory work. As we are telling each other one another's stories, as we're telling our own family stories, as we. All of those things that we hold in collective, I think, makes it more communal, more community based and community oriented. And also if there is a desire to do long term preservation work that requires resources, and it's generally going to be easier to do that in community. Right? So if, for example, one of the things that the Black Memory Collective in Los Angeles is talking about doing is building a repository of sorts, perhaps a digital repository to hold photographs, to hold recipes, we're still talking with the broader community about who would want to participate, who should hold and steward it, what an ingest process would look like. And then it starts to really feel like we're having the conversation about a brick and mortar archives, right? It shifts. It doesn't stop being memory work, but it takes on sort of the Patna of traditional archival space.
- [24:39]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So in your work, you also talk about black memory work being restorative and healing. Can you talk about what ways, like, what does that look like for black memory work to actually heal?
- [24:49]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
There's a member of our collective who is very interested in birth stories and part of the. So when I said storytelling, narrative is a really important part of black memory work, because it isn't in part about telling our stories, preserving those stories for the future and for our children, our grandchildren, our descendants, our communities more broadly. And so Dominique, I don't think she would mind me naming her, is doing really beautiful work around talking with people who have difficult birth stories and recording those stories for that person so that they can have something to hold. Right? So in some instances, they may not have a child to hold, but they now have a story that they can hold that has been told to someone who is holding it in care and in community with them. And I think there's something very healing and restorative about that kind of practice. And we think about all of that as black memory work.
- [25:53]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know, Tanya, you started off by giving some very powerful examples of, like, things in your personal experience that have shaped your interest in doing this work. So you talked about the state, the children campaign, as well as Hurricane Katrina. And I'm wondering, you know, you're talking about that as like, as told to us, right? Like these messages and stories that we saw. But what you're talking about with black memory work is us owning this process. I wonder what does it look like for something like Hurricane Katrina or even, I'M thinking about the pandemic, right? Like how traumatic that was for so many of us and how many of us lost loved ones and lost experiences and all kinds of things. What does it look like in black memory work to hold space for both the joy of, like, black life, but also the more people parts of it?
- [26:36]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
That's something that I think about a lot. I taught a course in the fall of 2024, yes, in the fall of 2024, on black memory work. And there's not much written about it in the professional literature, certainly not in information studies. And so I'm casting about a little bit, looking for materials for my students to read. And about halfway through the quarter, they came to me and they said, professor Sutherland, this is beautiful and we're really enjoying this class, but if we had one note for you. More joy, please, more joy. Because it was a lot easier to find representations or examples of. Of how we are actually holding space for one another in tragedy and in trauma than it was to find things written about how we are holding one another in joy. So I'm really glad that you asked that question, because with COVID so much loss, there are a lot of community based, grassroots level projects to document people's experiences. With COVID I can't say the same thing was true with Katrina in the same way, but it certainly is true now with COVID There are oral history projects, all kinds of things that are sort of attuned to that kind of pain. I think where we are maybe not doing as good a job is finding those moments of celebration and lifting those up. Part of black memory work is teaching the kids how to play spades, right? Like, we gotta know how to play dominoes. If we don't know, then we're only bringing the bad stuff with us through the generations. So I know y' all want to gatekeep, but teach the kids, Teach them babies how to play spades and dominoes.
- [28:24]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Okay, so what I hear you saying, Tanya, is that I gotta break out my hula hoop and teach the babies how to do the hula hoop.
- [28:32]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Need double Dutch?
- [28:34]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [28:34]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
I want to see air waiting. Okay, that's what I want to see. That's right, yeah. You know, many years ago, there was a project in Trinidad that was. I'm. Now I'm not going to remember exactly what it was called, but it was something. It was a cultural memory project. And the idea was sort of this living museum. What a beautiful notion. They had a storyteller who was there to tell the stories of Afro Trinidadians in the Caribbean, there was hopscotch. And they would teach anybody who didn't know how to play how to play. And I thought that, right, this. We need more of this. We need more living museums, so to speak. More of that energy anyway, if not formulation.
- [29:18]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. So I think lots of people who are enjoying our conversation will, you know, hear this and, like, feel like it's beautiful and be very inspired and then feel like, oh, my gosh, where do I start, Right? Like, what does it look like for me to have my own personal family kind of black memory work? So what would you suggest to them for how to get started?
- [29:38]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
I would say look to your people, right? What are you collecting? Because we're all collecting something, even if we're not really aware of it. So stop and take a beat. And what are. What is it you're collecting? Is it shoes? Honey, I'm not mad at you. Just ask yourself, what is it, Right? Because shoes are important. All God's children need traveling shoes, right? Ask yourself what you're collecting and then look and see. Talk to your people. What are they collecting? My mother is a tremendously hardworking person and a really brilliant cook. I don't know that she would tell you that she is a collector of recipes or that she is the keeper of our family culinary traditions. I don't know that she would see that in herself, but I see it very clearly, and it's something I want to make sure gets preserved, respected, held. Those are the kinds of things I would practice. My dad, for example, is a lover of music and has a tremendous record and other music collection. I don't think if you asked my dad, you know, what he collects, that he would say music. And he probably wouldn't even consider himself a music aficionado. He just likes music. But those are the family stories, right? He comes from a line of musicians, and he's probably not thinking about the history of his own family as being important to his love of music, right? I think we start there. We really start by looking inward and looking outward and having conversations with the people closest to us. And then we go a little bit further out. Talk to my cousins, I talk to my aunties. And then at the same time, right, once you feel like you have the capacity for it, start talking to other people in your community. Start talking to people at church or, you know, trying to think of where else people gather these days. It's. We've become so dispersed. Ask people when you're playing cards, ask people at Wherever it is, at the cookout, the cookout is actually the perfect place to have this conversation. To start this conversation.
- [31:45]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah. As we are kind of moving quickly into the holiday season, it feels like a good time to think about, you know, so, for example, in the things you've shared, right. Like, would it be an opportunity maybe for you to record your dad talking about a couple of his favorite albums or to record mom as she's preparing for the holiday dishes as a way of kind of getting started with some of these conversations?
- [32:07]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Absolutely, absolutely. Get your phone out. Don't just record mom doing what she's doing, but learn it with your hands too. Right. There's something really important. An important aspect of black memory work is the. The cultural transmission. And cultural transmission is fancy speak for handed down from generation to generation. And by that we mean, like, physically. It's a practice that has been transmitted from one generation to the next. So I learned how to roll out a roti dough from my auntie in Trinidad. I now have that memory in my muscle. I have muscle memory of how to do that. I can teach my son how to roll out a roti. So if I had just. Just had a video of auntie doing it, Auntie Noreen doing it, maybe, maybe I could still teach my son. Maybe. But having that muscle memory is really important, which is why I'm saying I want to see the kids with their hands in the air waiting to jump it for double Dutch. Right. The recordings, we can take all of the preservation practices to heart and utilize them, and digital things vanish. Sometimes those things get lost. It's a lot harder to lose something if you know it in your body.
- [33:20]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So this feels like a perfect intersection of where we started in talking about black memory work and then digital afterlife. Right. Because what we're talking about is these videos that kind of live beyond us. And I'm sure, as we know, that there are all kinds of, like, ethical considerations around, like digital archives and who has a permission to share. Can you talk about, like, some of the ethical considerations, especially when we're thinking about digital afterlives?
- [33:43]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Yes. I start from a place of concern and care when it comes to any kind of digital recording. I don't often allow myself to be recorded, in fact, because if there is no digital video of me, then there can't be an AI deep fake of me saying some stuff I would never say, doing some stuff I would never do, and then having that be a hundred years from now what my descendants are looking back on and thinking, oh, that was Tanya. So that's what we don't want. That's sort of the core of the ethical concern, is that our images and likenesses, which we already know are typically taken in moments of trauma and despair. Those are the images that are then held, kept. That's the about us and sort of on our behalves, not by us and for us approach. And there are ethical concerns that one can raise and think through in terms of access and sharing. And I have a lot of thoughts about that. I think we should be thinking about what is appropriate access, but who determines what is appropriate? Right. I think that should be done at the community level, whoever the community is that's being affected or influenced or included in whatever the digital project is. Also, I'm thinking about Frederick Douglass. Frederick Douglass was big on the photograph and the potential, what it could do for us. He did not think that this was a technology, that photography was a technology that that should be used to convince white people that black folks had value. He didn't think a photograph should be necessary, that any kind of technology could in fact demonstrate the value of a black life to somebody who didn't want to see it. So imagine in the year 2022, 2023, somewhere in there, when I got on Beyonce's Internet and I saw a photograph of Frederick Douglass that had been reanimated through Ancestry or one of those companies, and he's shaking his head back and forth, back and forth. And I thought, everything I know about this man, from the words that came out of his mouth, he would hate this and would not stand behind it at all. And for me, that's where the ethical issues start. If we have no agency and no ability to say what is going to be done with those materials, and we know that there is a long history of using our images in nefarious ways that end up harming us, doing further harm, then that's for me, the first ethical flag. That's where we have to start. We have to start with people having a certain amount of agency and being able to say, yes, I want to do that, or no, I don't. It's got to be a consent based model. Absolutely is the first thing I think. And then I think we have to be really careful. You know, I said the thing about gatekeeping earlier in kind of a joking way, but there are real needs for gatekeeping and it's because we are collecting materials for beautiful reasons and not nefarious ones, and we don't want to open ourselves up to further attack.
- [37:03]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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- [41:19]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I guess that's my next question for you Tanya, because you've already talked about like how dispersed we all are, right? Like you know, the cookout largely doesn't exist all the time maybe as it did kind of historically. And so many of the ways that we are creating community and talking with one another about these kinds of things is online. And so what does it look like to gatekeep when so many of these conversations in ways that we are kind of practicing black memory work kind of happen in public?
- [41:47]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Yeah, it's a really really important point and the thing that immediately occurred to me as you were, as you were speaking is all of the times that I have seen Amin pop up on the Internet and than a whole bunch of people, non melanated people rushing in to be like explain it to me, explain it to me. I don't get it. Like I don't get it. I have seen gatekeeping happening there in a way that I'm like that's right, you know exactly what to do. You understood the assignment. Your people are like, I'm not going to tell you that it's actually none of your business. So that's U.S. business. And I have been very impressed, actually, with our ability to find ourselves in community online. Black Twitter, while it was a thing, was a very. It was open. It's not like you couldn't follow some accounts and find your way into black Twitter, but if you didn't have a guide of some kind, if you didn't know where to start, Black Twitter might as well have been a locked room in a castle somewhere in, like, you could not find us queens. We weren't available like that. And even though we were right there saying the stuff that we were saying in public on a very open, public platform. So I think that we've always found ways. We're very creative folks. And it's one of the things that's actually impressed me most about studying the way that black people kind of move on the Internet is that somehow the way that we are in real life, of course, gets echoed and we understand the assignment. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:29]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know, you bringing up black Twitter just unlocked all of these memories for me, because you're right, it was not, like, a place to go. You did have to know kind of like, who you needed to follow and, like, the stories and, like, the things that we would revisit year after year. Like, it was very much a, if, you know, you know, kind of thing and thinking about, you know, I think, how difficult it was for people when ownership of Twitter changed. Right. And so then it very much felt like not a safe place or as safe as it could be for black folks to kind of congregate and, you know, just rise in bots and trolling. And so it very much feels like that was a place where there were so many, I think, rich cultural conversations about, like, just what it means to be black right now and now that doesn't exist in the same way. And so, you know, like, can you help me talk through, like, what does it mean for us to gather in a place like a black Twitter that is not owned by us. Right. That we have no control over and, like, became so meaningful for so many people and then for it to kind of be disbanded. And what that means in terms of, like, black memory work.
- [44:33]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
What a lesson to have learned, right, that when you don't control your own spaces, they can be taken from. From you. Even no matter how much time, energy, effort, labor has been invested into that space and seeing what has become of Twitter, it's not even a place that you want to hang out or be. So I'm watching the development of Black sky with great interest because I think that a fair number of black Twitter users, at least those in academic circles, migrated over to Blue Sky. There's a Black sky that has been very intentionally developed to kind of combat that very thing. What happens if Blue sky goes down? We don't want to lose our space. So I'm watching the development of Black sky with great interest. I'm also noticing that we are. Are finding ourselves. You know, we are finding community in similar ways on Instagram and TikTok. But Instagram, you know, much like Facebook and Twitter is, it's not what it once was. Right. You can't have the same kind of community that you might have once been able to build. And so we're seeing this actually happen over and over and over again. And the lesson is that we have to build it, right? We have to build our own thing if we want to have our own thing and have it remain. And the remaining part has to be really intentional. It just really has to be. We can't build a Black sky. And this is no shade to the Black sky creators. I don't know what their intentions are, but we can't build a Black sky and then allow it to ask everybody to come and be part of that and then be like, oh, yeah, actually it's a fyre fest. Right? We're not going to do that in our own communities to each other, because everybody else has is what we. Yeah, yeah. So some amount of fortifying, self fortifying, I think is really important in digital spaces as well. So all of the black creators, all of the black entrepreneurs, all of the black tech folks out there, get yourselves together, let's be in conversation and make sure that we are building things in a way that will allow them to last. Now, that being said, I also want to say that not everything is made to last forever and that there is real value in allowing a process of forgetting. There's value in that process of letting go. Right. And so I think we need to be really careful too, that we're not trying to hold onto something just for the sake of holding onto it.
- [47:23]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, that feels important.
- [47:25]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So you mentioned one of the examples you use was like thinking about, okay, I don't want myself to kind of be videoed because 20 years from now, I don't want some random AI video of me doing a thing that I never did to show up. What does it look like for us to have agency in this process because it feels like this stuff is like growing exponentially, like much quicker than like legislation can keep up with it. And you know, all of the things, not that legislation is ever, you know, like the be all, end all for us anyway, but it very much feels like there's very little regulation and we are not keeping at pace with like the way AI is growing. So what kinds of things can we do to like protect ourselves and to be thinking about like how to retain our agency and consent as technology continues to, you know, expand.
- [48:08]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Yeah, you're absolutely right that the law can't keep up. Certainly the legislation is nowhere near the pace of technological development and the folks who are working in that space have been sounding alarm bells for a long hot minute. I'm thinking of people like Alondra Nelson, Ruha Benjamin, Safi and Obel, myself, Andre Brock. We've been sounding bells and sounding bells. And I think that what's challenging is that everybody wants to play, right? Everybody wants to play with the technology, Everybody wants to know how ChatGPT works. And I don't think there's enough information that folks don't have enough information to know that there are potential downline effects or concerns. Right? If you aren't a person who's watching Black Mirror, you see CHAT GPT as something that can just help you do X, Y or z, right? It can help you get a recipe together. I wouldn't even trust it to do that. But it can help you do all kinds of things, right? It's a product, it's being sold. What's not being told to people is that all of the backend data collection is, doesn't make a large language model a responsible tool for your health, your wellness, your anything, right? And looking to these digital tools like that is in the long run going to be deleterious. These are the alarm bells that people keep trying to raise. So I would say, I know it's really easy for me to say do your homework, but when I say do your homework, I'm not saying like you need to read my book, please do read my book. I'm not saying that you need to go out and read a bunch of academic books. I'm not saying that you need to go read a bunch of academic articles. I'm not even saying that. And I would encourage you to try to read the terms of service, but they write them in such a way they don't want you to read them, right? When I say do your homework, talk to people again. Talk to people. Talk to people. About their experiences. Ask the person that you know that is closest to these technologies or closest to this as their life's work. Or do you know someone who is in tech? Do you know someone who knows a little thing or two about coding? Ask them, hey, what do you think about this technology? Do you think I should be taking any steps to protect myself if I'm using TikTok in particular? Because every technology is going to be different and have different concerns, right. That come with it. For me, it's not actually possible to craft a life in which I'm never going to be recorded. That doesn't mean that I'm not making more intentional offline choices. Right? And so there's balance there, too. Understanding that we are not going to be able to keep up with the pace of how the technology is developing. It's not going to be legislated rapidly enough in a way that's going to protect us. What steps can we take? Understand how the technology works. Understand who owns the technology. Understand what they are gaining by giving you something that looks free. They are gathering your data, they're packaging it, they're reselling it. You are the product, right? TikTok isn't the product. YouTube isn't the product. It is a little bit, but you are the product, right? Your data is extraordinarily valuable. So perhaps the first question is, how much of myself do I want to give up? It's a hard one, but it is a compromise, and it is one that you're making every time you use these technologies. How much of myself do I want to give up? How much information do I want to share? How much of my data do I want them to have? Right. And yes, if you know somebody that works in any of these industries, ask them. Ask them. Is there something I should be concerned about here?
- [52:16]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I'm curious, Tanya, in. Because you said you taught a class, I think, last year. What kinds of conversations are young people having about consent in, like, all of this?
- [52:25]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
- [52:25]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Because I think, you know, you often think about young people as being very eager to kind of be on top of technological advances. But I would imagine there's also some pushback in thinking through, like, okay, what do I want this to mean in 20 years from now? So I'm just curious, like, what kinds of insights they share, maybe as a part of the class.
- [52:42]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Yeah, that's a great question. I teach an undergraduate class called Information and Power where we really go into a lot of these questions. And. And then I taught that black memory work class, and it's Interesting, because they kind of sit at opposite ends of. Of an intellectual spectrum. Right. Again, where the information and power is content. More like the digital afterlife conversation that we're having where we talk about things like consent, we talk about data collection, we talk about surveillance. And every time, without fail, these students are learning something, which that's not just a credit to me as a professor. I'm not patting myself on the back. What I'm saying is that they didn't know. They didn't know which things to be worried about or concerned about. And the class gives them an opportunity to think about how they want to engage. And I always assign in this information and power class a 48 hour offline assignment where they have to go for 48 hours and they're not allowed to use their student ID, they're not allowed to use their phones. No digital technologies. You can use electricity. Listen to your rec girl. Put your records on. Okay. I love it. But what you can't do is call an Uber or a lift. You can't use your ID to your student ID to get into your dorm or into the dining hall. And it doesn't take more than 48 hours for people to realize how much of their lives is absolutely controlled and determined by outside forces that are, you know, run by technology companies. They're like, I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that, I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that. I basically had to sit at home for 48 hours, have people, like, have my roommate bring me food. I just didn't realize. I just didn't see it. And I think once you see it, it's hard to unsee.
- [54:49]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
That sounds like a powerful little example and a real opportunity for many of us to practice. Like, what would it even be like for 24 hours to not engage with any of your devices like that?
- [55:00]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Yes, that's right. And to really observe, well, what can I do and what can't I do?
- [55:06]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
- [55:06]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Where can I go? Can I get on the subway? Can I take the bus? Do I have to have my phone to pay my bills? Yeah. It's a lot of things that are touched by technologies in ways that we can't opt out. Right. And so I think what tends to happen is this is the moment for people and everyone who's listening. I would encourage you to take this moment for yourself and just say, how much? How much? Again, how much of myself do I want to give up? How much of my time? You know, understanding that I can't completely opt out. I Can't say no. I don't want to have to use my phone ever. It's not really practical in our modern society. But that doesn't mean that you have to be posting every single thought that you have or a bazillion selfies, right? Like maybe there's room in there for moderation, for thoughtfulness, for consideration, for taking a bit of a step back and reevaluating.
- [56:09]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
It's been so wonderful to learn so much more about your work, Tanya. I really appreciate you spending some time with us today. Please let us know where we can stay connected with you and learn more about the work that you're doing. Do you have a website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?
- [56:23]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Thank you, Dr. Joy. Thank you so much. This has been a delight. My website is@tanyasotherland.com and you can find links to my socials there, but you can pretty much find me either Onya Sutherland or Anya Sutherland, depending on the.
- [56:39]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Platform and the name of the book. And where can we find it?
- [56:43]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
The name of the book is Resurrecting the Black Race and the Digital Afterlife and you can find it anywhere that books are sold. You can order it directly through the University of California Press website. You can get it on Amazon or please try your local bookshop.
- [56:58]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Beautiful. We'll be sure to include all of that in our show notes. Thank you so much.
- [57:02]
Dr. Tanya Sutherland
Thank you so much. What a pleasure.
- [57:04]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Absolutely. Thank you, Tanya.
- [57:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I'm so glad Dr. Sutherland was able to join us for today's conversation to learn more about her and her work. Be sure to visit the show notes@thristyforblackgirls.com session438 and don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have movies or books you'd like us to review, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis Indechubu and Tyree Rush editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island all that. Plan your trip today@Visit Rhode Island.com that's Visit Rhode Island.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat and the hours it takes to blow dry. I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair. It dries, stretches and smooths your hair all at once. With way less heat, less damage and less time. Revair will be your new best friend. And right now, Revair is offering their lowest price of the season. So treat yourself to healthy hair and get more time back in your day. Visit my Revair.com today to shop their holiday sale. That's MyRaver.com your crown deserves it. This episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music, festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. No one's journey is the same. That's why Delta SkyMiles moves with you from earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping, and things you do every day to to connecting you to new experiences. A Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you you. It's more than travel, it's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides, and arrives with you. Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. Learn more@delta.com SkyMiles this is an I Heart podcast.