← Therapy for Black Girls
Therapy for Black Girls
Session 442: Healing, Grief, & Community After Netflix’s 'The Perfect Neighbor'
00:47:11
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- [00:11]
A
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining me for session 442 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.
- [01:09]
B
This is an I Heart podcast.
- [01:12]
A
Guaranteed human Ever been at the pharmacy counter and your mind goes blank when the pharmacist asks any questions? That's why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia starting January 14th. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, each episode features real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the health experts you see most, breaking down the questions you wish you'd asked from which meds may not mix well to what vaccines you need before a big trip. They'll bust myths, decode trends, and share practical advice you can actually use. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. living with an autoimmune condition isn't easy, and every journey is different. That's why Season five of Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition from Ruby's Studio in Argenics, shares powerful firsthand stories from people with conditions like MG and cidp. Hosted by Martine Hackett, these conversations dive into what resilience really looks like through setbacks, breakthroughs, and finding strength in community. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Need to get away? Escape the everyday, reconnect and celebrate family in a place that's made for unforgettable moments. Orlando from over the top resorts and holiday magic to 10 of the world's top theme parks, Orlando is the perfect family vacation destination for all. And no matter who you are or where you come from, Orlando welcomes you with open arms. So gather your crew and pack your matching T shirts. Orlando is calling and your next great family memory is just a trip away. Plan your trip@visitorlando.com and discover why Orlando truly is for all.
- [03:24]
B
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- [03:29]
C
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- [03:30]
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- [04:01]
A
Before we get started, just a brief content Note that there are mentions of racial violence in today's episode. If you have sensitivities around this subject, I urge you to take breaks as needed or step away if it becomes too difficult. In 2023, the murder of Ajika AJ Owens shook the country. Another black mother taken too soon in a moment of senseless and unnecessary violence. In the years since, AJ's story, as told on Netflix's The Perfect Neighbor, has prompted a larger conversation around race, fear, stand your ground laws, and the everyday realities and dangers black families navigate in America and in their communities. But AJ was more than a victim of racial violence. She was a woman whose life was filled with love, ambition and unapologetic hope for her children and her future. Today, I'm pleased to be joined by two women who are integral to carrying AJ's story forward with courage and purpose. Pamela Diaz, AJ's mother and co founder of the Standing in the Gap Fund, has turned unfathomable grief into a mission to protect families who face race based violence and its aftermath. Here with Pamela is her co founder, Tsakima Robinson, producer and advocate for racial justice who helped bring AJ's story to the masses. In this conversation, we explore how their relationship formed, what it means to tell a story shaped by grief, and how storytelling, advocacy and memory can become pathways to collective healing. We talk about community, justice and the ongoing fight to ensure that AJ and so many others like her are not forgotten. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation. Please share with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession or join us over in our Patreon to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today. Pamela and Takima, thank you for having us.
- [06:07]
C
Thank you as well.
- [06:09]
A
Yeah, I would love for you to start by telling us who you are and what brings you to this conversation today. We'll start with you, Pamela.
- [06:16]
C
My name is Pamela Dias and I'm the mother of Asica AJ Owens who was shot and killed June 2023. She was knocking on a neighbor's door who never opened the door and shot through a locked door, killing her. And the reason she was knocking on the door is because it was a long dispute that spanned over several years, was harassing my grandchildren, her children and it ended deadly and she stood behind stand your ground laws. And I'm also a proud co founder of the Standing in the Gap Fund.
- [07:00]
B
Dr. Joy, it's nice to be here with you. My name is Takima Robinson and I am co founder of the Standing in the Gap Fund with Pamela Diaz. But I come to know Pamela and Ajica through my little sister who was AJ's best friend and was tapped within hours after this awful murder occurred to support the family. And I've been doing that since this occurred in various capacities.
- [07:29]
A
So glad that you both are able to join us today. So I didn't know that there was a prior connection between the two of you. So you already knew one another even before the senseless tragedy. You did not, but you were connected through your sister?
- [07:42]
B
We were connected. So my sister was best friends with aj. I think my sister and Pam had met, but only sort of through the relationship, through the extension of aj. And I had actually not known Pam, but I know many of the folks who will watch the Perfect Neighbor will see what happened on that fateful night. But the children after that night were brought to my sister's house and Pam came directly to my sister's house from Atlanta when she received the phone call. So my sister's home and sort of our family, etc. Became kind of ground zero supporting the aftermath of this tragedy.
- [08:21]
A
And at what point and how was the decision made for you both to kind of come together to tell AJ's story?
- [08:29]
C
So Gita, who is actually Takima's sister in law, cousin, I met her after the passing of my daughter and initially I believe the film was when Gita approached me about doing a documentary. There had been some discussions as to whether or not the shooter would be charged appropriately, if justice would be served. So initially it was sort of just documenting the process and trying to ensure that justice would be served. And then along the way they determined that there was more to it through the footage that was obtained through a FOIA request, which Takima will share more light on that. But Gita approached me after she had put together the film and asked me to watch it. And it was my decision as to whether or not to lead or go forward with the film. And after watching it, I will admit I had to watch it a couple of times. Initially I was sheerly watching through the lens of a grieving mother and grandmother. And then I watched it again and I realized the significance of the story and how powerful the documentary was and that I needed to share with the world what happened with my daughter and in hopes of making real change. And so I, I allow permission for the film to be birthed into the world.
- [10:10]
A
Yeah.
- [10:12]
B
So Geeta Gondabear, who is the director of this film, is my sister in law. She's married to my brother, technically my cousin. And I actually lived in Jamaica when this occurred. And so when I received the phone call in order to get to Florida as quickly as possible, I ended up flying to New York to get to Florida. My sister was in distress, she needed support, she didn't know what to do. I believe that Saturday after this incident occurred, Pam, my sister, inquired about AJ's body. They were told that the police department only worked Monday through Friday. There was no local news coverage. There was sort of nothing happening. My background has been in advocacy, social justice and philanthropy. And so I was able to sort of access folks like Ben Crump, Latasha Brown, Joy Reid and others. And so I started leading a lot of the advocacy work. Pam was in deep mourning. You know, as we talk about therapy for black girls, she is just in the sort of pit of hell in terms of mourning. And so what I could offer was my network of relationships, and that included my extended family, my brother, my sister in law, whose home I found myself in the middle of the night as I was waiting to change planes to get to Florida. And so in that, in that wee hour of the morning, we decided to have my brother come with me and to have a film crew meet us on the ground. Because again, at that moment, this is sort of 72 hours after this had occurred, Susan Lawrence still had not been arrested. And so we were afraid if we did not begin to document this. If we did not begin to unlock doors to the media, that this would just be another incident where there would be no justice. Right. And so at that point, Nakan got involved, Geeta got involved, I was involved. We were on the ground. We were there with Ben Crump, who I connected to the case. And we were documenting the aftermath, given the fear that we had about a lack of justice in a few weeks. And we started seeing some local news reports that showed this body cam footage. And I think we had an aha that there was more evidence there that we should probably think about gathering, as we do in many of these cases. There is a criminal case, then there is civil cases, and in recent history, there have actually been DOJ charges for hate crimes brought against both Breonna Taylor and George Floyd's murderers. We were talking to the White House, we were having conversations with the Biden administration, with Kamala Harris, with the doj, with Kirsten Clark, who was at the DOJ at the time. And we're pretty confident that they would be interested in pursuing it. And we wanted to gather as much evidence to make our case to the DOJ and eventually whatever civil cases and other things that might come about. So we actually did a FOIA request, they call it the Sunshine Law in Florida, to obtain this footage that we were starting to see pop up on local media. And we wanted to obtain that as quickly as possible. And so through Anthony Thomas, who's an extension of Ben Crump and who has represented the family locally in this matter, we were able to do a request to receive that information. Once we received it, we just had a thumb drive of a bunch of footage, right? So all the 911 calls, we had interrogation footage. We just had a whole dump of material, and we needed to sort of sort through it to figure out what it was. So there was no thought of using it to make a movie at that point. We were using it as an advocacy tool. We were hoping if we could share this with some investigative journalists. Right. We could get some folks to dig into this a little bit further. We could elevate her case and elevate the matter. And so I asked my sister in law if she would just cut the footage and put it in some sort of order for us just to see what it was that we had that we might be able to use from an advocacy perspective. And once she did that, and once her. Her team did that, her and Nakan did it together. What they really saw was how this thing really played out. Something that we're never often given purview in, which is what leads up to these cases. We hear about what happens afterwards. In George Floyd, we saw the incident, but we didn't see what led up to. To this. In this case, we saw two years of evidence that showed two years of what actually led up to this. And it was eye opening. We saw systemic failure. We saw Susan actually escalating, and we just saw, unfortunately, this matter play out before its eyes through this footage. And so that is how it occurred. Once they saw that, they asked Pam's permission to begin the process of putting it together in a documentary format, went away for about a year, and then presented. Presented her with a rough cut, always with the intention to honor AJ and to honor AJ's story and really vindicate her through this undeniable footage.
- [15:18]
A
Thank you so much for sharing that backstory. And I'm glad that you and your family had the wherewithal to say, like, oh, we better, like, document this. And it feels like that was likely, I'm guessing, a huge part into why we actually saw justice in AJ's case. Right. Because there is so much compelling footage and there is so much evidence that it felt really hard to kind of deny that this clearly was something that was escalating. Pam, you mentioned that you had to kind of sit with it a couple of times before you felt, like, okay with it kind of being released. What was that like for you to continue to watch it? And, like, what kinds of things were you thinking about as you made the decision for it to be turned into a documentary?
- [16:01]
C
It definitely was a difficult watch. There are so many layers to the film, from grief to community to justice. Initially, as I stated, I was watching through the lens of a grieving grandmother. I'm watching my daughter laying on the ground fighting for her life. I'm watching my grandchildren and sheer distress. I'm watching the community, their outrage, their hurt, their anger. I see moments of joy in the film where children were at their innocence, being at their core, who they are, Children playing, having fun, and all of that was taken away. And then I have to ask myself, I don't know why this happened. I may never know the reason, but it did. And I'm here at this moment. What do I do next? Where do I go forward? I had to pray. I had to hear a word from God. And I believe that this is his will. A part of me wanted to be selfish and just hurt and just grieve and just mourn, but there was no way that I could do this. This was Bigger than my hurt, this was bigger than my grief. This was a real opportunity to make a difference in this world. This was a real opportunity to make changes to laws. This was a real opportunity to bring awareness not only to just gun violence, but to what racial biases and so on really is like in America. It's not just someone's recollection or someone's feelings or thoughts. You see it in the film. It's undeniable. And I did not want America or the world to become numb to violence, to another black person being murdered. It's just not okay. We have seen it over and over again. And this was my opportunity to share our story, our pain and our grief, and to make real change. So I had to. There was no choice. It needed to be done. And that's the reason why I said.
- [18:39]
A
Let'S do this and take him. And there is such a responsibility. I'm sure you know, and your family knows around sharing stories like this, right? Especially when the, you know, when AJ's family is involved, there are minor children involved. Can you talk about maybe some of the decision making and, like, what that feels like, the responsibility of telling the story fairly and in a way that actually honors aj?
- [19:03]
B
Yeah, I would say first and foremost, it felt like a need to get permission. And so I think it's always really important that we sought Pam's permission. This would have not seen the light of day unless she permitted it. And I know that's not how most filmmakers go about making films, even of this kind. A lot of folks don't know who's behind this film, and they assume, I've been told, people assume that white folks made this film. And so for us, this film, well, it was important that we sought permission from Pam. And on behalf of herself and AJ's legacy and her children, we knew this was really, really sensitive material. And so that part felt really, really important to us. And honestly, we would not have gone forward if Pam said this was too much. Right. So it first started in respecting her grief and making sure that we were permitted to do this. And so that was important. Pam wasn't involved in the editing of the film, et cetera. The film team, the director, and our amazing editor really led that part of it, but they made a lot of decisions as well. They made decisions about what to keep in and what to leave out. A lot of folks struggle to watch this film. I think what they're struggling with is the level of emotionality in the film, the heightened emotions. We're not used to really seeing People in that state of trauma, the film itself is not. I mean, outside of the hate speech and the context of the situation, the film isn't violent. We don't see a lot of actual violence. But people are having a really visceral response to the film because the film is very emotional. And so we knew that there was a responsibility in that and showing people in their most vulnerable moments, particularly the children. But it also, to Pam's point, it felt like in this moment, when many of us are numb to gun violence, racial violence, we needed to wake people back up. We needed to move people from their headspace back into their heart space. And we needed people to bear witness to the impact of gun violence, the impact of racial violence. And you have to deal with that. You have to face that in this movie through the emotions and the trauma of the children in the neighborhood as you see it playing out. So that felt like a responsibility. I think the last part for us that feels like a responsibility is we didn't make this for entertainment. This was never meant to be entertainment. We know this has been Netflix True crime, and we are proud of the numbers and the people watching it around the world, but we actually made this to make a difference. You know, I always talk about Pam in the same lineage of a Mamie Till, of the same kind of decision that Emmett Till's mother made to not only, you know, have a public funeral, but to have an open casket and invite the media to see what had happened to her child. And without those images, we may not have seen some of the breakthroughs in the civil rights movement movement. And so we know this courage and we know this bravery, and we've seen it in our history. And so it felt like that same kind of responsibility and again, the same need to seek that level of permission from those who were most impacted by this. Pam and the children. The other part of the responsibility that I've always felt is to make sure that outside of, you know, making a movie, we made sure that the children were as whole as we could make them. Right? And so AJ Was the primary breadwinner for her children. And so making sure that through our work and through our efforts, through standing in the gap, you know, we've been able to provide her family with some resources to continue to support the kids financially. So the responsibility has always been about supporting her family. And through that, how do we support other families impacted by racial violence? The responsibility has always been about seeking permission from those most impacted by this and making sure that this effort was blessed by Pam and that it served AJ's family and it served her legacy and shared the truth of what happened with the world and really vindicated a black woman in many ways. We don't normally get to be vindicated. And so those were, I think, the responsibilities that we were holding. Not just to create entertainment, but to try to change hearts and minds and hopefully try to change policy.
- [23:54]
A
More from our conversation after the break. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks, do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia starting January 14th. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, this podcast brings you real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the health experts you see most answering the questions you wish you'd asked, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends, and gives you practical, trustworthy advice straight from the people behind the counter. No white coats, no lectures. Just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Today I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where a national university comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu, everyone living with a rare autoimmune condition has their own story to tell. That's why in Season five of Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics, you'll hear powerful real life perspectives. This podcast explores stories of what life is really like with MG or cidp. Host Martine Hackett sits down with people who faced it all the early signs and symptoms, the search for answers, and the strength it takes to keep moving forward. And this season, the stories go even deeper, showing us what resilience truly looks like through setbacks, breakthroughs and the communities that make all the difference. Listen to Untold Stories Life with a severe autoimmune condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:42]
C
10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.
- [27:01]
B
This is where mindset comes in.
- [27:03]
C
Someone will be eliminated.
- [27:05]
B
Pressure is coming down.
- [27:07]
D
Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th watch the trailer on trainergames.com bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whim Sound Smart Speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just from quiet mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whim Sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim Sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whim Sound. That's W I I M S O U n D.
- [27:46]
A
Paola can you talk about what the healing process has been like for you and the children and how you felt? Maybe the release of the film has maybe helped your healing process or what role has it played?
- [27:58]
C
We are not completely healed. It is ongoing and I will say that the children are very resilient. They've taught me so much about grief and about courage and about openness. We share a lot of stories, a lot of memories, past memories. I think that helps us a lot in our grief and our healing process and which our grief is definitely linear. Our grief, it's up and down like a roller coaster. We have good days and we have bad days. We have good moments and bad moments. It's ongoing, but it's sharing those moments and each one of us, our healing looks a little differently. For one of us, it may be talking about the past memories. For another, it may be just quiet, alone in our own thoughts. But definitely sharing the story and the film with the world has been very therapeutic. Like I said, it is a hard watch, but it's what comes out of it. It's knowing that I'm impacting lives that hopefully the changes that come about, no other family has to endure. What we went through when Asica, when she was knocking at the door, which is how she lost her life. She wasn't just knocking on the door for Israel or her own children. She was knocking on the door for all children of color. She didn't know it at the time. She was saying that not only does my children's lives matter, but all children of color matter. And so she was brave enough to do that. This is the least that I could do. It can be very emotional, but I gained my strength from my daughter. She stood up for what was right. And I firmly believe that sharing the story is what is right, and that's what helps me with my grieving and my healing process.
- [30:18]
A
Thank you so much for sharing that, Pam. I'm wondering where you found support. You know, a lot of people talk about after a tragedy, there's a lot of support kind of in the immediate aftermath. But then a couple of months, like the phone stops ringing. People are not stopping by. What has your support system look like to support your healing?
- [30:35]
C
So, yes, so it does subside. People have to go on with their lives. Sometimes I say I have separation anxiety when we all come together and we all part and go our separate ways. It's hard, but I still know that they're there. Although they may not be physically in my space on a daily basis. Most are just a phone call away. Some are actually here locally. But I know that they care and they love us and that they support us, so that helps. But most of all, it's my faith that gets me through prayer and then also counseling. Counseling has definitely helped both with myself and the children. That's an open, safe space where we can talk about anything and everything, things that we may not necessarily feel comfortable talking with our loved ones. And so therapy has definitely been a big part of my healing process. And I just draw on my inner, inner spirit, my inner strength, and I just keep rooted in my community and my prayer and therapy and just knowing that this is just one day at a time, that it's not going to happen overnight.
- [32:04]
A
Thinking when you mentioned that some of the response that you've gotten from the film is that people don't necessarily know who's behind it. They are confused. Is there anything that has been surprising to you about, like, the public's response to the film?
- [32:18]
B
I think the. The fact that folks may not have known who made the film and watched it on Netflix and made assumptions about who makes documentaries about subjects like that. I was actually surprised when that inquiry came, and I thought it was important that people knew the backstory behind the film. It made me more Resolved to make sure we shared this part of it, because particularly in our community and black community, I think the intent behind this film matters to people. Right? Some folks commented that they felt like there was a trauma, porn or an exploitation. I think those fears for our community are always pretty relevant. And so understanding who made the film and what was behind it was really important. So that was a surprise to me. And I think something that, you know, is important to us to sort of share the, the genesis and the impetus behind this. Right. Again, we did not make this for entertainment. We made this with permission. We made this in honor of aj. So that was important. It's a hard film to watch. It's a really, really hard film to watch. And there are so many folks in our community, especially post George Floyd, who just don't have the tolerance for any more black trauma. And so, you know, we definitely felt that in real time. We did not feel like we got the media coverage or the media response from our community when this happens. Some people are just hearing about AJ's story through this film. So I'm excited, I'm happy for that. But I think it does say something about our tolerance level to consume this type of material. And so I think that that was also maybe not surprising because we were living it, but it was tough. And I'm glad that we've been able to be on platforms like this or share more of the intention and backstory in other spaces to richer conversations around kind of what we're up to, what the intentions were, and also too, after people experience this film, people aren't the same. They're not the same as they were, you know, 90 minutes before. And so people are really wrestling with a lot of emotions that come up. I feel like when I tell people to watch this film, I always tell them to watch it in community and create space for yourself to talk about it afterwards. We know there are a lot of people in our community who have experienced gun violence, whether directly or indirectly. A lot of folks in our community who watch this and are triggered and sort of re traumatized because of really relevant lived experiences. And so I think a lot about audience care and making sure the folks viewing this also know that we see them and we know this can bring up a lot. And so just there's a. There's a back to the responsibility question. I think there's a bit of responsibility that we feel. We've offered a lot of opportunities to have talkbacks. We've offered a guide for people to watch this in community with some questions to help process that we work with mental health professionals to help us create. And so maybe not surprised, but definitely felt overwhelmed after this came out with how audiences were processing it and a responsibility to give them some resources.
- [35:48]
A
Pamela, is there something you'd add there? Anything that has surprised you about the response?
- [35:54]
C
I think that when people are watching the film, they are watching the film like I did initially from a space of emotion. And as Takima said, you know, they're not the same as they were 90 minutes prior to watching the film. I think when they go into it, they may be thinking of looking at it as a true crime, but I don't think they understand what they're about to embark on prior to watching the film. And then once they do watch the film, I think their, their emotions consume them. So in some ways, some viewers may not fully understand why a mother or a grandmother would subject putting this type of film out initially because again, they're watching through the lens, as I did, of emotion. But once you sit with it and if you really kind of dissect it and understand, as Takima said, it's not meant for entertainment, although it has done tremendous and we are truly grateful for the response and the viewership. But it really is meant to shed light on the issues that concern our communities, especially people of color. It's meant to provide education. It's, it's meant to teach us what gutter laws, the effect it has when it's placed in the wrong hands. It's meant to teach us what stand your grounds laws do, the deadly effect it has, how it can be weaponized. It's a teachable moment. It's, it's beyond entertainment. It's beyond grief. It's beyond our own personal emotion. It's something that is needed to be shared with the world. And it's to bring us back to community, to bring us back to being what a perfect neighbor is meant to be.
- [38:11]
A
More from our conversation after the break. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks, do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Starting January 14th, hosted by Dr. Jay Goodman, this podcast brings you real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the health experts you see most answering the questions you wished you'd asked, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends and gives you practical, trustworthy advice straight from the people behind the counter. No white coats, no lectures, just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Today. I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment, NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu. everyone living with a rare autoimmune condition has their own story to tell. That's why in season five of Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics, you'll hear powerful real life perspectives. This podcast explores stories of what life is really like with MG or cidp. Host Martine Hackett sits down with people who faced it all the early signs and symptoms, the search for answers and the strength it takes to keep moving forward. And this season, the stories go even deeper, showing us what resilience truly looks like through setbacks, breakthroughs and the communities that make all the difference. Listen to Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:01]
C
10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.
- [41:20]
B
This is where mindset comes in.
- [41:22]
C
Someone will be eliminated.
- [41:24]
B
Pressure is coming down.
- [41:26]
D
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- [42:01]
A
N D have there been any changes or kind of new legislation related to stand your ground laws? Maybe as a result of the documentary coming out that you all are aware of?
- [42:17]
B
So there are no the the movie came out in October, so we haven't gotten to legislative session. Most legislative sessions will be this spring, but there have been some recent amendments to stand your ground law which exists in 38 states. This is not just a Florida problem. This exists in 38 states in some form or fashion. We've seen some progress in states like Georgia, Pennsylvania, Minnesota recently where folks are beginning to chip away at the law. Most states already have self defense laws which we think are pretty sufficient and we actually don't need a stand your ground law. What's interesting about stand your ground just to sort of give a little kind of tidbit of education to the audience, is the legislation was originally drafted by the nra, which probably doesn't surprise anyone, but it was actually done in collaboration with the state legislator from Marion county, from Ocala where this incident occurs. So it was drafted, it is from Ocala, it was created in this place. And so AJ's case is a full circle moment. Most of us know stand your ground from Trayvon Martin and I believe what was that 2012, 2011, but we don't know that it was written right here in in Ocala and in Marion county by the legislator who represented this place up into a year ago. So its legacy begins here and we hope its legacy ends here with AJ's case law. Her case was decided by an all white jury and unanimously they convicted their peer Susan Lawrence to manslaughter with a sentence of 25 years. And so her case law is extremely significant. Through the film and through the impact campaign that we are producing, we hope to actually use the film to make changes in states that are ready. And so we're going to be focusing on those states, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Minnesota, where there's already been some progress with their existing coalitions who are doing that work. And we also want to do some work in Florida, but we're also open to working in the other 34 states that have this law on the books because we think this is the type of film, this is type of art that really lays clear the issues around stand your ground and how folks can weaponize it. And stand your ground is an extension of white vigilantism. Right. It comes from that same ethos and from that same history. And so we know it comes with a racial undertone and has actually had that same kind of impact since it was enacted in the early 2000s. So our intentions are to continue to leverage this film and make it a teaching tool around stand your ground reform.
- [45:18]
A
So you both have referenced Standing in the Gap organization that you have co founded. Can you tell us more about the organization and the work that you plan to do?
- [45:27]
C
Standing in the Gap was co founded by myself and Takima Robinson. Basically it was again birthed when we lost my Asica, when I lost my daughter. But it's meant to support families very much like my family. When I lost Asica, I I didn't have the resources. She was a single mom and I was now left with the burden of caring for four children financially, emotionally, physically, everything that comes with raising four young children, educating them and so on. So one, I didn't have the financial need. Also I we needed therapy. Most therapists do not accept insurance. We had housing concerns. I had to relocate from Atlanta, Georgia. I left my job and I relocated to Ocala, Florida. So there was so much that went into with losing my daughter and then we had to ensure that justice would be served. So that meant advocacy work, organizing, boots on the ground. So all of these require financial resources, which I personally wasn't prepared. And then also so standing in the Gap will help support initiatives such as those. But also it has an advocacy piece as well. Just as Takima educated us on stand your ground laws, that's one of the things that we want to do is to work at chipping away at these laws because we see what happens when it's weaponized and and so on. So Standing in the Gap is really a lifeline to families who are impacted by racial gun violence. And it was, it was born out of the death of my, my daughter, Ashaka Owens. And I'll let Takima further go into in depth more about standing in your Gap.
- [47:44]
B
Yeah, everything Pam said, she said it perfectly. Those are our intentions is to support families impacted by racial violence inspired by Asica's passing and all the things that we learned and endured, making sure that those families have access to resources and don't have to bear the financial financial burden on top of already dealing with a nightmare. You know, you shouldn't be having to put up GoFundMe accounts and trying to worry about the financ for funeralizing a loved one under these circumstances. And honestly, our communities need mechanisms that are not extractive in order to be able to quickly have an infrastructure to support folks like this. And we just don't have that. So what does mutual aid in 2025 look like? How can we organize ourselves better to make sure we can move resources quickly? You know, Pam was talking about the part of standing in the gap that in addition to supporting families, supports organizers on the ground. You know, organizing takes money, it takes resources, and it doesn't have a grant cycle timeline. We had 30 days to file charges against Susan Lawrence. There were 30 days. So there was a tight timeline. Most foundations and things like that, they can't move money that quickly. And so we learned a lot about what folks deal with in this circumstances, through this circumstance. And we were trying to solve our problem, but then realized, right, we could actually stand something up that could support other folks so they don't have to face these problems by themselves. So it's meant to be an enduring resource. Our highest hope and highest dream is we can endow it so that it exists into perpetuity. And the resources, again are twofold, to support families directly for expenses related to stuff like security, which we had to have, funeral expenses, mental health, et cetera. And then the other side, be able to support organizers and advocate to get out in the streets and often fight for justice, which also takes resources. And then lastly, to be able to leverage these opportunities for some kind of systemic or policy change.
- [50:11]
C
Change.
- [50:11]
A
Pamela, what do you hope that people who watch the film take away not only from the film related to AJ's life, not just the way that she died.
- [50:23]
C
I want people to take away community, responsibility. Asica lost her life standing up for her babies and in essence standing up for all of our babies. She carried the message that every child of color deserves respect, deserves dignity, deserves to be a child, free to be a child. She bore the burden of losing her life so that we could have a better life. Because had she not lost her life, we wouldn't be here today. We wouldn't be on your platform. We wouldn't probably the perfect neighbor would not have been made. The world would continue on with more violence, more deaths, more racism, more biases. It would just be a never ending cycle. But she was a black mother who stood up for what was right. She lost her life for what was right. And so now in turn, we must stand up for her and all of those who are to come behind her and stand up for what was right. She was more than just a single mother. She was more than a friend, a sister, a daughter. She is whom is going to make a change in the world. There's a funny story that I often share because she was a single mother and she wanted to do more. She wanted better for her children's lives. She carried the burden of being the sole breadwinner. So we would often sit on the phone and she would run all these different entrepreneurial ideas by me. And I was like, I don't know. I never was in full support of some of her ideas, but she was adamant that she was going to be successful. And she was adamant to the point that the world would know her name. She emphatically told me that the world was going to know her name. I'm sure she thought that, you know, her business idea was going to be that successful. But unfortunately, she didn't live to birth any of her entrepreneurial ideas to see them come into fruition. But I believe that it was by design, God's ordinance, that she lost her life in this manner. And this is the way that the world would know her name. This is the way that the world would remember her as someone who stood up for what was right, who was compassionate, who had a heart of gold. And she's going to make a real change. Her legacy will live on through her children. Her legacy will live on through the perfect neighbor. Her legacy will live on through the Standing in the Gap fund. And I truly believe that Asica, a single black mother from Ocala, Florida, not only will the world know her name, but the world will remember her for the impact, for the blueprint, for the footprints that she left behind?
- [53:56]
A
Thank you so much for that, Pamela Takima. Can you close us up by letting us know where we can stay connected to the work that you all are doing and standing in the gap and kind of stay connected to what's happening with the film.
- [54:08]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a couple of ways in which people can stay connected. There is a film website called the Perfect Neighbor Film. You can find that online. And then you can find the Standing in thegap.org standinginthegapfund.org make sure you put in standinginthegapfund.org you can also follow us at Standing in the Gap Fund on all social platforms. We are inviting people to stand in the gap with us, and I really, really believe that this must be a for us by us movement. This debt has to be fubu all day. And so we are inviting people to support our work. We have an opportunity where people can become a sustaining donor and so they can learn more on our website about how you can also support families impacted by racial violence. You can Sign up for our newsletter and the Perfect Neighbor is our second Arts Partnerships. We launched this work at Art Basel and so a big part of Standing in the Gap is using culture as a medium for this message. And so please go find us. Sign up for our newsletter, learn about all the ways that you can get involved and you know, look out for more things that we will be launching with artists in the future because we believe culture is part of our healing process. We believe culture is healing and we believe that when we create powerful cultural products like the Perfect Neighbor, we can also elicit change in the world. So if folks are interested in that work and being part of our movement and being part of this mutual aid work that we are doing to stand with families and communities, they can learn all about that at Standing in the.
- [55:53]
A
Gap fund.org thank you so much for that. We will make sure to include all of that in our show notes. I really appreciate both of you spending some time with us today. Thank you.
- [56:02]
B
Thank you Dr. Joy.
- [56:04]
C
Thank you.
- [56:10]
A
I'm so grateful that Pamela and Takima took the time to share AJ's story for today's episode. To learn more about them, the Perfect Neighbor and the work they're doing with the Standing in the Gap Fund, be sure to visit the show notes@therapyforblackgirls.com Session 442 did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might answer it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and your mind goes blank when the pharmacist asks any questions? That's why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia starting January 14th. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, each episode features real conversations with CVS pharmacists, the health experts you see most breaking down the questions you wish you'd asked, from which meds may not mix well to what vaccines you need before a big trip. They'll bust myths, decode trends, and share practical advice you can actually use. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu living with an autoimmune condition isn't easy, and every journey is different. That's why Season five of Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition from Ruby Studio in Argenics shares powerful firsthand stories from people with conditions like MG and cidp. Hosted by Martine Hackett, these conversations dive into what resilience really looks like through setbacks, breakthroughs and finding strength in community. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company. This episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [60:22]
B
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [60:25]
A
Guaranteed Human.