B (4:34)

Melissa, I am so glad to see you again. Thank you so much for joining us.

C (4:39)

I'm glad to see you again. It's been a while.

B (4:42)

It has been. It has been. But when we started talking about this topic, it kind of felt like an extension of the conversation that we've had about black women and entrepreneurship. And today we're going to be talking about the black girl urge, as I call it sometimes, to go back to school and get another degree. So one, as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking, I, I wonder if this is something that other communities like, Are white women also like popping up with this urge? Like, you know what? I think I need to go back to school. Like, I just don't know enough to know. But why do you think there is such a, like, a strong thread or like a strong urge for, you know, black women when maybe we're feeling a little bored or we're feeling any kind of thing? One of the things we often are considering is, oh, I need another degree or I need to go back to school.

C (5:33)

Yeah, it's interesting because when I went to look at some statistics, right, And I didn't look at statistics with regards to black women versus White women or any other group. But what I did notice is that when it comes to people who tend to return to school later in life, Black women have some of the highest statistics when it comes to that group. So, like, more of us are in school, we're in school later in life, and we're in school when we have more responsibilities. Right. So we are caregiving either for children or for our parents. And the reality of it is, is that I also looked at some qualitative data around why black women are choosing to go back to school. And it's because we believe that it's going to improve our socioeconomic status. We believe that we have a sense of responsibility to, whether it's our daughters, our nieces, our nephews, children in our community to be able to see, see people like them get an education. And overarchingly, especially when it comes to black women wanting to get a doctorate degree or a master's degree, there's a belief that if we have a higher educational level, that we'll have more impact on systems and that we'll have a greater ability to be able to support our own community and people who look like us by shifting systems and being in control or the head of certain systems, so that we can make things better for those coming behind us. So I think that when we look at statistics and just anecdotally, when I'm talking to women who I'm working with, who are looking at going back to school is because we think that it's going to make things better. We think that it'll either make things better for us, it'll make things better for our families, or it'll make things better for the communities at large, which we know is really consistent with how black women show up. Right. There isn't as much of this intrinsic, I want to do this for me. There's a lot of, I want to do this for the people around me and the circumstances around me, which is consistent with the way that we move in life in general. Yeah.

B (7:48)

And I completely believe all of those stats. Right. Like, it makes total sense. I think the difficult part is that there is often this thinking, but it doesn't often match up with the reality. Right. Like, I think we know, of course, all of the isms are what impacts. Right. Like, if this were any other group, like, if this were white men kind of outpacing everybody else in terms of education, all these things, we would see those changes. But unfortunately, we do not see, like, changes in systems and, like, the ability to impact things in the ways that we would think. Can you talk More about, like, why that is.

C (8:24)

Well, like you said, the isms, right. So the reality of it is, is that we're going back to school and we're outpacing people in terms of the rate of the people within our community, the rate of black women receiving higher education degrees. But, you know, we still have a huge income gap, right? We still make 69 cents on the dollar compared to white men who have the same educational status as we do. So we're seeing a shift in the circumstances, meaning that we might make more money than we were making before, but we're still not given the opportunities to really make shifts in terms of systems or even shifts for our communities at large. And then I also think that we don't do a lot of weighing the costs. So there's this idea that's ingrained in many of us that the more educated you are, sometimes even if you have letters before your name or after your name, people will listen to you. People will value your perspective more, so you'll have more input, and you can create systems and impact systems. But the reality of it is, no matter what letters you have, it is more about the systems that we're engaging with that really are constructed in a specific way. They're not constructed with us in mind. They're not constructed to give access to our point of view. And in my humble opinion, they don't care how negatively we are impacted. And so a lot of times we do this work without a sense of, oh, this is for me, this is for bravado. This is ego. However, our sense of selves and identities become impacted because we are not able to affect the change that we actually want. We become very despondent with the systems that we work so hard to be a part of. And then we receive messaging over and over and over again, sometimes very conflicted messaging about our value. Right? So you start off being highly valued, highly sought after, highly coveted. And then when you get into the role, into the position, sometimes you find yourself being a figurehead, or you find yourself fighting against systems that directly reflect to you how much they devalue you. And so one of the things I like to always say is that the energy with the thing stays with the thing until that thing is dismantled or it is uprooted. And we're often trying to join environments that. That are very clear about how they're constructed and why they're constructed, which is not for us, by us or considering us. And we don't take into account the impact that it will have on us, not just when we're in those systems, after we've gotten these degrees, but on the journey to achieve these degrees, the cost, the cost to our families, the cost to our self esteem, the cost to our health, and quite frankly, the cost to our finances.

B (11:22)

Melissa, I think when I'm having conversations, and I'm sure you too, with clients, I also think that a part of what happens with like the going back to school is that it is one of the few things that we have control over. Control, Right, right. And so many of us know how to do school. We have been doing school for so many years. This is a place where I feel very comfortable.

C (11:45)

Right.

B (11:46)

Like, if I feel out of control in somewhere else in my life, the thing that I know I'm success, successful at is being a student. Right. Like, give me a good syllabus, give.

C (11:54)

Me the reading list.

B (11:56)

Right, right. And so I think in addition to like the economic advancements and you know, the ways that we are trying to promote ourselves and advance ourselves and our families, I do think that one of the subconscious things that is often at play is this like, need for control in school. Feeling like a very familiar place to.

A (12:13)

Be able to get.

C (12:14)

Yeah. And I think to tackle that, this idea of a place where we can prove that we're good enough. I think a lot of us are really ingrained with what it means to be a good black woman, what it means to be a good girl. And school is a place where it's very easy to be affirmed in that good girl identity. Because like you said, give me a syllabus, give me a rubric about how I can be graded. You know, give me a direct pathway to the degree. And I can follow that because I know what is at the end. And the truth about life. Right. Especially when you're not in school, is I don't know what's at the end. There is no hard, fast, rigid rubric to achieve the things that we desire as the especially happiness. When I was looking at some data when it came to this conversation, I wanted to see what impact does, you know, education, money, finances make on happiness. Right. Because I think my personal belief is that one of the things that we're not trained how to do enough is to be attuned to our own joy. Right. And the thing that makes the greatest difference, I think it's. It was something like 61% of the people who answered a happiness survey said that time made the greatest difference with their happiness. The ability to decide what they were going to do with the time. And of course, the Resources to be able to engage with the things that they wanted to do. The thing about time is that when we orient ourselves a certain way, that's internal. That's not about anybody else's reflection to us. So if time is. And happiness go together, this idea of success, goodness, rubric syllabus, these rules that we believe that we have to follow, that's very much the antithesis of time. Because you're constantly working to achieve something that sometimes has nothing to do with your inner core and what actually. Actually really matters to you.

B (14:27)

Yeah, yeah. And I know a lot of your work, Melissa, is around, like, working with black women, around identity and, like, your values. And so if you had a client who was coming to you saying, you know what? I already have these three degrees, but I'm thinking, I want to go back to school, what kinds of questions might you ask her? And, like, what kinds of things might you be trying to piece apart to kind of figure out, like, okay, what's actually driving this decision?

C (14:52)

So my first question is always, why? Like, and my clients know me well enough. We have a great rapport. Most of them have been with me for. For some time. And I kind of lower my glasses because, you know, because we have these conversations quite often. I love. I'm like, but why? Why are you doing this? Like, why do you want to do this? And we really pick apart that why. Right. And most people just say, well, I think it's time. Right? Or, I think if I went back to school, I could really make change. Or I hear this quite often. I've always dreamed about having Dr. In front of my name, or I've always dreamed about making my parents proud. So we start with the why. And then we get even more curious about some of the feelings connected to and attached to the why. I ask them, what's missing? What's missing? Right? What is missing from your current life that you think that this additional degree would support, especially if they already have advanced degrees? Can what you're seeking, if it is sort of a structured way of learning something, be achieved in another way? Do you really need mentorship? Do you need some sort of certificate program? Like, is there another way that what you're seeking, if it's in the realm of learning, can actually be achieved? And then let's talk about your finances. What are some of your financial goals? And is going to school going to negatively impact that? Right. And what are your supports? What are your supports? Many of the women that I serve are doing multiple things at the same time. They have families Many of them are partnered, but they bear the brunt of the household responsibilities. Many of them are unpartnered and many of us are sandwiched. So we're caring for parents as we're caring for our children and you know, raising children in some way. And so what kind of supports do you have? Right? And then we go into their sense of identity, right? How much of the little girl who wants to be approved of, who wants to be supported, who wants to feel like she has somewhere to go or some direct answers is showing up in this decision. And a lot of times, once we give it a beat without them finding the program, signing up, starting school, a lot of them wind up saying, this actually isn't what I want to do. You know, this actually isn't what I want to do.

B (17:30)

As I'm listening to you talk, I'm also wondering if there is not a part of this urge that is also.

A (17:36)

Driven by loneliness, right?

B (17:37)

Because when you think about, for many of us, like the last time maybe you felt very like carefree and like it was easy to make friends and connect with other people. That may have been like college, right? And so I wonder if that is also a part of it. Do you think that that might play into this decision for some people?

C (17:53)

That's actually a very, very good question. And it's something that I haven't really thought about when it comes to school, but I absolutely can see that we do. Like a lot of times we talk about the loneliness epidemic, right, for men, but I find that it's a that way for many of the women that I serve. Rather, they don't feel seen, they don't feel honored, they don't feel in deep connection with others. And the last time that they remember at least beginning, like having a direct path to beginning relationship is in some sort of organized and structured way. And that tends to be school for us. I also don't think we have very many hobbies. I think that we live in a culture where we've turned hobbies and interests into some aspect of economy. So we've made those our part time businesses. We've developed the online Personas around them as opposed to just being in them. And so we don't have natural third spaces, you know, where we can go and where we can be engaged with things that we love and meet other people that love the same things and have real relationships. There's also a depth of relationship that's missing. So you might know people, but you're not able to be vulnerable with them. You don't spend a lot of time with them. Everyone is busy. You don't know how to say to people, I miss you. And so school is a way where there's this natural sort of structure around time and seeing people, but it's also not the depth of relationship that people are seeing. I see an uptick in loneliness when my clients go to school and an uptick in feeling disconnected and separated from. From the people who they have been in community with because they feel more isolated.

A (19:44)

That's a really good point.

B (19:46)

What do you think are some of the, like, biggest misconceptions people have about obtaining advanced degrees?

C (19:53)

That it's going to earn them more money, first and foremost. And I think that there's a perception that it's going to be the same as the last time they were in school. I find that people who went to school, whether it was high school, college, or received an advanced degree before in school, felt easy, simple, structured for them. There's some sort of idea that they're going to return to school and it's going to be the same way when, you know, most of us are older and our brains are going through what they're going through. Most of the women that I work with are in perimenopause or, you know, menopause or approaching it. And our memory is, ooh, child, we are on a struggle bus with, with memory and with energy. Right. And so going to school is not as easy as it was. It takes a different set of skills and a different set of sense of awareness for self. I also think that there's this idea that the faculty are naturally going to be supportive and that they're naturally going to be welcomed into the environment. And a lot of the times the black women who are going back to school, especially when they're going for doctorate degrees, research degrees or even master's degrees that allow them to take on a research lens. They're interested in researching things that have to do with their lived experience. And if you're in an environment where your lived experience is not valued or that research is not seen as important, you're fighting an uphill battle. So you can learn all of the things, but the way that you want to embody and promote it in the environment is a fight. And I think many times they're not ready for that fight. They're not ready for the fight of academia, and then also not knowing what the degree that you're looking to pursue actually offers you after you're done. Right. Some degrees are research based and what you are able to do when you're done has to do with teaching. And if you're not necessarily interested in teaching or research, sometimes that's a shock to people because it doesn't actually allow them to do what they want to do. And some people don't even think about what they want to do. To do after the urge is just to get the degree. And so there's a lot of things that you know need to be considered before they go to school.

A (22:20)

More from our conversation after the break. I'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks, do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, a board certified psychiatrist and health educator, this show takes you behind the counter to answer the questions you wish you'd asked, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends, and gives you real, trustworthy advice from the experts you see most your neighborhood CVS pharmacist. No white coats, no lectures. Just real talk, real answers, and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women with flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making, and these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls, Inc. Is the leading expert on girls, and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones, and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not. Visit girlsinc.org these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island, all that. Plan your trip today@Visit Rhode Island.com that's Visit Rhode Island.com.

B (25:02)

You mentioned the environment. And I feel like even before we were seeing all of the, you know, DEI rollbacks and cutbacks and people not prioritizing that like grad school, especially like PhD programs are just historically hard, right? Like we are often one, a few in a cohort. If it's like a cohort model, like they're still not like a plethora or one.

A (25:22)

Right.

B (25:22)

Like they're not. There's not a plethora of us typically in grad programs. And you're right. So if you are, if you're looking to research things like your lived experience or something that is like a community support kind of thing, you are likely.

A (25:34)

Not to get any support.

B (25:36)

What can you say about, like the times we're living in now, right. And like, the likelihood feels maybe even a little less of a chance that you will get support from faculty or even the institution itself.

C (25:49)

I don't know if the audience is going to be able to see my facial expressions, but I feel like we're living in a hostile environment. I feel, to say the least, to say the least, if not a targeted environment, right. Like where we are actually being targeted. I have a hypothesis that some of what's being done in terms of DEI rollbacks, in terms of some of the degrees being deprofessionalized when it comes to being able to take out higher loan amounts. I have a hypothesis that some of that is directly because there are so many women, and specifically women of color, black women in particular, receiving these degrees and embedded in these professions. Right. And so I think that it's even more of a hostile environment and not just in the academic institution, but then even the ability to gain access to it. Most of us, when we're going for higher degrees, right? Like we're not funded, we're not fully funded, right. And so you're taking out loans and now you're not really even able to be able to do that based on the new rollout from Department of Education and the federal loans, right. Even if you are able to do that, the amount of stress that that causes on you post degree, in terms of how much loans you have to what the job actually pays, right. So what you're actually earning. So I think that there's socially and culturally there and systemically, I think that there's a direct sort of attempt to diminish what people are able to attend, achieve, especially women and black women in particular. My opinion, I don't have any stats to back that up, but that is my opinion. And I think that because of that, environmentally, there's no longer a need to hide it. I think that when we live in a society where we at least have systems that may not truthfully purport the same values and beliefs that they have, but, like, even if their language acts like it does and it gives people a little bit more pause when they have things to say or do that, you know, go against rhetoric. Right. Propaganda and rhetoric. But when the propaganda and the rhetoric is very clear that we don't care about that, there's not even an attempt that people have to make to act like they care about that. And so when we look at what's being funded, what's not being funded, when we look at money not being able to. To be earmarked specifically for black and brown students, for students based on gender, when we look at socially, even I have my own beliefs against the, you know, push against the divine nine organizations. Right. Like, I really think that all of that speaks to a breakdown of access points and community and, you know, ways for us to be big and bold and accepted in spaces that have historically been rejecting of us. And I think that it makes room for more outright rejection without even having to give language to the why. Right. It's just, this is not a fit. This is not a fit.

A (29:21)

Yeah.

B (29:22)

You know, I hadn't thought about the impact that seeing the ways that, like, our fields in particular are being deprofessionalized. Right. Like, you look at the list and it definitely feels like it is a very high percentage of, like, where you see women show up, especially women of color and in particular, black women. Right.

C (29:41)

Yeah.

B (29:41)

But I had not thought about the mental health impact of, you know, like, how so much of our worth is tied to, like, our professional identity. And now how these systems are saying, like, oh, yeah, but this isn't even a professional degree. Like, this doesn't even matter anymore. So hearing you talk about it that way definitely makes me think about, like, this is yet another attack on our mental health that I hadn't even put together yet.

C (30:05)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, for me, brings up a chink in our armor. Right. When we talk about this idea and we kind of discussed this before when we met last time, when we talk about this idea of excellence, when we talk about what it means to be black and excellent, excellent. When we really embody this idea of what it means to be a good enough black woman who is excellent. A lot of that has to do with how we present ourselves, what are our titles, what educational level we have, if we're partnered, if we're not partnered, what we believe, what our posture is, what clothes we wear. A lot of identity for black women is historically clothing. And what does it mean to be good enough? What does it mean to be good enough? And so I think that this deprofessionalization in entitled and the. I mean, it has created a very big uproar and chasm, right? Like, if we look in our online communities as therapists, people are like, oh, they're coming for us. They're trying to say that we're not good enough. Then, you know, some people are like, oh, but they're trying to take our money away.

A (31:16)

And.

C (31:16)

And then you have others who are like, why do you want to accrue so much debt anyway? Like, I don't make that much money, so why do you want to do that? And that's created a chasm because we're kind of like infighting about its value and if it should or it should not be valuable to us. And when I say it's a chink in our armor, I think so much of our armor and sense of personal identity has very little to do with who we are and very much to do with what we carry, what we can do and how we can present. And I think that when we talk about going back to school sometimes that's another way that we're trying to bolster our identity by how we can't present and proving that we're good enough. When we talk about loneliness and when we talk about Black women, we can't escape talking about partnership, and we can't escape talking about women who, early in life, chose career and education over having children, right? And some of what we're facing with a sense of loneliness is this idea of the life that we imagined that we would have at whatever age that we are, we don't have. And so some of it comes from this very real place of, well, I don't have what I thought I would have have. I may not even have what I want to have. How can I create something else for myself? And I want to be clear that there's nothing wrong with reimagining life, but reimagining life From a place of your why and from a place of seeing yourself as whole already without. It is very different from reimagining life and thinking that anything that you add to your life will be make you whole. Those are very different dynamics. It gives you a very different purview. And it also makes you ask very different questions about if you want to pursue it and then the kind of environment that you choose if you decide to pursue it.

B (33:27)

You know, I had not thought about that. I mean, I think, like, in the larger picture, of course, like, you think about partnership as a part of this conversation, but I'm now reminded, and I don't feel like I've seen this as much recently, but I definitely feel like when I was in grad school, there was all of this tension around, okay, are you gonna spend these prime years of your life kind of in school or are you going to, like, be pursuing partnership? And it was often a taunt, I think, at black women, like, oh, these degrees are not going to keep you warm. Warm. You're spending all of these time. All this time trying to, like, focus on a degree. But, like, what about all these other parts of your life? Right. And so it definitely feels like that is something that, like, has been histor. Something we've carried.

A (34:12)

Is this.

B (34:12)

This idea that you have to choose one or the other.

C (34:15)

Yeah, yeah. And I'm absolutely with you when I. When you say that, you don't hear it as much now. I think we hear a large narrative now. Like, there's this whole thing about your boyfriends will embarrass you. You know what I mean? Like a husband that's as good as you think he is. And as you know, being a woman of a certain age, I'm 47 and I am unpartnered, seeking partnership. As I have more conversations with women who age. Yeah. I have developed a life that I'm very happy to have. Like, I think before there was this idea of an either or so. Like, either you're going to do this or you're going to do that. I think more of us as we get older in age and as our children leave the home and things of that nature, we're looking at the. And. Right. And so I want to be clear that I don't necessarily think that it needs to be like, oh, you trying to go back to school because you lonely. Like, I don't want to feed. Feed that narrative. And we have to be aware of all of the factors embedded in our. Why, once again, not. Because it'll make you necessarily choose something different, but how you enter the space of what you're choosing can be different and it can be healthier, right? And I do want us to be clear about our whys because I really have worked with women who have done damage to their bodies when it comes to returning to school because of how they have reentered the space. So if you're working full time, you are caregiving for children and or parents, or if you're partnered, you may have a job that requires a lot of you in addition to just being employed. And we tend to want to do things with excellence, right? Give our all over give and you're taking all a full course load in a graduate program. Like can your body really withstand that? Like, we all have unique genetic imprints about what our body can withstand. I know personally for me, when my body is overstressed, anxiety and depression become super heightened in my everyday. And like this is what makes room for our bodies to start to break down, right? Because we also have to know when to say when, when to take a break. So if you're entering this realm from a place of loneliness that you haven't unpacked, from a place of trying to find goodness that you haven't identified because you're trying to recreate a life because you haven't dealt with the sadness over what you don't have, or because you want other people to look to you and say, oh, she did it and you don't know that, right? That's not in your consciousness. You can be subconsciously creating sickness, illness, greater stress for yourself that you haven't adequately identified or put in place the supports that you need to be able to withstand the journey.

A (37:15)

More from our conversation after the break. I'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks, do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, a board certified psychiatrist and health educator, this show takes you behind the counter to answer the questions you wish you'd asked. Like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends, and gives you real, trustworthy advice from the experts you see most your neighborhood CVS pharmacists. No white coats, no lectures. Just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Today, I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for the you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making and these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls Inc. Is the leading expert on girls and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones, and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not. Visit girlsinc.org these days most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island all that. Plan your trip today@Visit Rhode Island.com that's Visit Rhode Island.com.

B (40:24)

So what does that support typically look like? Melissa like, let's say, you know, I've done the work, I've identified. Like, okay, I think I'm going back for the right reasons. But you do still need support. What does that support look like and how do you start to build it?

C (40:37)

So the first level of support that I tell people to look at is what kind of schedule is going to suit you best, Right? So like what is the structure of the learning environment that you're going in? Is it in person? Is it online, is it hybrid? Right? Then what kind of environment do you need to feel like you can excel and do well? Right? So Some people can withstand a environment that is not supportive, right? Meaning they can go into their shell, do the work. They have a supportive family and friends team who they can vent to if things get tough. They feel like they may have other people in different spheres of, of academia, not at the school they're assigned to. So the school that they're assigned to serves, you know, more utility. And then there are those of us. Me, I'm not going back to school, knocking on, never. However, if I were to say yes to that, I know I need an environment where I can sit and talk to people and like, feel connected and feel supported and feel cared about. That is important to my emotional constitution. So what do you need emotionally in that environment.

A (41:50)

Then?

C (41:51)

What do you need from the people around you based on the schedule that you've chosen? Right. You know, based on the type of coursework that's there? Do you need somebody to pick up your children? Right? Do you need a reduced schedule at work? Do you need a job that understands that there's some days or some time periods where a school might be more intense or more hectic and so projects at work might shift? How long have you been at your job to where they may give you this leeway? Does your job offer time or for school or some sort of funding for school? So what do you need in the environment around you? Do you need meal prep? Right? Do you need somebody who can help you prepare meals? Do you need, you know, a good girlfriend to talk to? Right? Do you need to schedule a massage regularly because their body needs to be worked out? Do you need to go run your labs with your doctor to see what your health is like right now? Like, like, what do you need physically, emotionally, tangibly in the environment and in your personal life to be able to sustain your journey? And then I always ask people to set up their boundaries. How will you know if this continues to be for you? There's a stick to itiveness that some of us have, right? I've made my bed, so I have to lie in it. This degree is going to take me five years. I have to trudge through all five, right? Come hella high water, no matter how it is impacting you. And so what are your boundaries if you see it to start impact your children in certain ways, Will you give yourself permission to pause if it starts to impact your health in certain ways, can you give yourself permission to pause? When will you know that this, this no longer serves you so that you can begin to make some concrete decisions and always be aware of Its impact. You know, one of the things that I had to come to terms with, like I said, not going back to school, but working multiple jobs has always been a thing for me. I really sat down and I have worked two, three jobs, side projects, the majority of my professional career, or had a job, you know, like when I was a director of a nonprofit and we did, like, residential programs, I was on call 24 hours a day to catch these five days a year, you know, in office, out, office, vacation, not. And what gave me pause, because I wasn't even aware of the impact that it was having on me, but what gave me pause was the impact that was having on my daughter. And I didn't have the consciousness to be able to even check in. Right. I was like, this is what we do. We live in New York City. We make good money, right? Like, we need to live a certain way. And when I realized the impact that it was having on her, I had to say, oh, is this worth it? Is this really worth it to me? And once I realized it wasn't, I completely shifted my life. Right. And then got her some supports that she needed. For the residual. Right? For the residual. So we need to have our boundaries. We need to understand what makes a difference for us. And I cannot. We live in 47's economy. I just want to be very clear about that. We live in 47's economy. And so what does it mean for you and your family if you're taking on more debt? The amount of stress and that I see the debt from student loans bring to the people that I work with, to the families, Some of them have been like, that degree wasn't worth it to me. I'm making an extra 3, 4, $5,000 a year, and I've accrued 50, 60, 70, $100,000 in debt. And I'm paying more in student loans. So actually my income is less than it was before I went to school. So we have to begin to define our parameters about not just our why, but the kinds of lives that we want. And at what point is the impact not worth it? Right. So is the juice worth the squeeze?

A (46:05)

Yeah.

B (46:05)

You know, I really appreciate you talking about the stick to itiveness, because that was going to be a question I have for you, is that I think it is, like, both the blessing and the curse of, like, how black women often show up. Right? Like, you give us a task, like, we are going to master it and, like, do excellent. But I think that also means that we are often not giving ourselves grace and like not giving ourselves permission to hit the escape button, right? Like this was a good idea, but not so much anymore.

C (46:31)

And then what is excellence? Sometimes we judge ourselves by excellence based on the outcome that we achieve, not recognizing that the circumstances that we have to function under to be able to get the same outcome as someone else are very, very, very different. So we wind up working, working harder, feeling very much ashamed, feeling like we're doing something wrong, when the environments that we've chosen to be in are not environments that actually serve what outcomes we're seeking. And then we internalize that like it's something wrong with us. And it's a very natural thing because we can be very outcomes driven. A part of this intuitiveness is I've decided I want to do this. This. Not just. And here's the real kicker. Not just that I want to do this, but I want to do this in this time frame. And if I don't do it in this time frame, I fail. So from what I understand about the, you know, doctorate degree and even some master's degrees, you have to write something, you have to research something, write something, get approval, and you also have to be published. Like, some of that is outside of your control if you have committee members who don't want to work with you for real. Well, first of all, if it's hard for you to find committee members, then you have ones who've been pressured to work with you, don't really want to work with you for real. Don't really believe in your topic. Think you should be researching things differently, right? Constantly want to give you these, like, minor corrections that have nothing to do with nothing for real, or they constantly contradict the themselves, or it's hard for you to get published because it is hard for you to find a journal that is interested in your topic or no one. Like, some of that is outside of your control, but yet you internalize it like there's something wrong with you. And for women who are used to being very successful and, you know, doing things that they set their mind to, it's not just the getting into school and then doing the coursework, it's also how we manage what we deem is not being successful because of all of these external factors that have nothing to do with our worth and value, nothing to do with our worth and value. And then now that's an additional layer of stress because it's not just what you're doing, it's also how you're internalizing what you deem to be successful. If it's completely outside of your control because you're doing your best. And so I think that's another marker of it. It sometimes it takes you longer if you're really committed to doing this. If you checked out your why and everything lines up, you got your support. Sometimes we need grace. For how long? It's not going to take you two, three, four years. It might take you five, six, seven. Right? And so how you carry that time, how you carry that length of time is more important than the amount of time I would rather use. I would rather see you carry seven years well and healthy and whole. Right. Than do three or four. Stressed out, sick, ill, depressed, anxious, and then not really able to meet your other responsibilities and obligations. Well, those things that matter, like for your legacy in terms of your family.

B (49:54)

So you've already talked, Melissa, about the lack of hobbies that we will sometimes have. Do you have other thoughts about how we can kind of redefine and reimagine our relationship to success that is, outside of going back to school?

C (50:09)

That's such a deep question for me and actually maybe even a little emotional one. I have personally found that since my daughter's been at college, like, and even as I was preparing for it her last year of high school, I don't. Like, I don't have a hobby. Like, what do I actually love, love to do, right? Besides work and help people? Like, what do I actually love to do? And what I had to realize is some of what I've loved to do, I do it through my work. But then what if I did it out? I love to read. I absolutely love to read. I read a lot for work, but what if I read a lot for pleasure, right? I love to meet new people and talk to them and be supportive. Well, what if that looked like volunteering in a way that allowed me to leave that there as opposed to bring it home, right? So what if I just gave out meals, right? What if I was a part of a women's group but didn't lead it, right? What if I received support as opposed to give it, right? So it is really about understanding what parts of life do you enjoy? And then is it the way that you're engaging with those. Those things that are not really, you know, supportive of a full life, but it's more geared towards productivity, right? So I think that's the piece, right? How are we viewing what is productive? Is it only productive if it yields income? Is it only productive if it yields results for someone else? Is it only productive if someone else can look at it and say that it's beneficial. Is it enough that it brings you a sense of joy, a sense of peace, a sense of connection to self, a sense of connection to creator. Right. How are we internalizing or looking at the lives that we're building from a sense of, like, internal mechanisms versus external? When we looked at. When I was looking at the studies around why black women in particular want to go back to college, so much of it was external. It had to do with a sense of productivity and a sense of community and not really things. Not much of it had to do with a sense of internal joy and peace and connection or purpose. And so really reorienting ourselves when we're looking at the lives that we're building and really investigating what we're seeing as that's productive and valuable and worthy. And sometimes just because it makes me smile, like, for real for me, just like that makes it worthy enough.

A (52:53)

Yeah.

B (52:54)

So, Melissa, the conversation we're having today is a part of our January Jumpstart series, and our theme for this year is all about metamorphosis. And so I love that reaction.

C (53:07)

I didn't know that before.

B (53:10)

I love that reaction.

A (53:12)

So.

B (53:13)

So to stay with the theme, in one word, what does your 2026 metamorphosis look like?

C (53:20)

Oh, you should have prepared me for this question. This is the best preparation.

B (53:27)

Your honest reaction.

C (53:29)

Ooh. Oh, that's deep. I was just having a conversation about this this morning. Wow. Sovereignty. Sovereignty. Yeah, it's a strong word. I've been. I've been pretty vocal in my. Like, my personal channels and things like that about the shift I've made in my. My spiritual and. And professional. Even Aetna, you know, spiritual, professional, personal life over the past few years, Right. Like, I had a group practice. I closed it down. I was part of a largest spiritual community. And, you know, I decided that that was not for me anymore. My daughter's in college, and I am a bird launcher. Right. And so sovereignty. This is the first time in my life I've lived my life for me, that I'm constructing a life for me, what feels aligned for me. And not that I'm not still in community or that I don't still take care of my daughter. I'm still very much integral with my family, but it's coming from this place of where am I centered, Right? What is grounding for me? What is whole for me? And I've been working on developing curriculum. Actually develop curriculum, but been teaching a course on ego and personal development for the past two years. And as I've done that work, when we do that kind of work, we have to be doing that kind of work for ourselves, right? And so really understanding what aspects of myself I've developed that have been very much rooted in community, that no longer serve me, right? That have been really rooted in what's best for others and how can I support others and have completely, completely taken myself out of the equation. So what does it mean to be interdependent? What does it mean to be sovereign and whole as I am, as I love other people and support other people and care for other people? I'm being taken on a journey, you know what I mean? And my imagination is like, oh, some interesting things are about to happen. But sovereignty, sovereignty, I've been placed earthside this lifetime with a purpose for me as well as for others. And so what does that look like? So 2026, sovereignty.

B (55:50)

Love it.

A (55:51)

What's one thing you're protecting more fiercely this year?

C (55:55)

Oh, my joy. My joy. You know, my joy. I think it's very easy to. With the spirit of. Stick to it. Iveness with the spirit of care, with the spirit of responsibility. The spirit of responsibility. I've agreed to this, so I have to do it, or I have these bills to pay, or I have this idea of what things should be without giving myself the opportunity, without giving ourselves the opportunity to consistently reimagine, consistently check in to see if it still works for us, consistently check in to see if the way that we thought it would work needs to be shifted. Right? Is it actually working that way? And so joy is not the state of consistently being happy with something or like consistently being happy in life. No. Joy is the ability to be connected to self, to be connected to peace, and to have the tools that you need at all times to be brought back to center, no matter what you're going through. The things I've been through in the past two years have really taught me and shown me, like, oh, like, I thought I needed that. Like, I thought I needed that that way, like that thing, that way to be happy. I thought I needed that thing, that way, to feel good about myself. I thought I needed that, you know, and it's like, the sadness will come, the grieving will come, the awareness of the loss will come, and I can still access my joy, right? The anxiety will be present, right? The fear will be present, and I can still access my joy. So, yeah, I'm always protecting my joy. Say I'm always wanting to come back to, what's this about? Does it actually serve me. And so that's what I'm protecting fiercely, Fiercely. Like anything can go. Anybody can go.

B (57:57)

Anybody and anything can go.

C (57:59)

Anything can go, you know? Yeah.

B (58:01)

Love that. Love that. We will definitely want to stay in touch with you so that we can follow this journey that you are kind of embarking on your journey for yourself. Because I feel like it is something that gives others permission to do some of that for their themselves as well. Where can we stay connected with you? What is your website as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?

C (58:20)

Yes. So I still have melissa ifill.com however, the website tends to be most active on in terms of like sending emails out, newsletters and things like that is reflecting Joy reflecting hyphen joy.com and then the. Oh, the two social medias because I'm actually more active on threads now than I am on Instagram. So threads and Instagram both. Melissa Ifill, LCSW Perfect.

B (58:45)

We'll be sure to include that in the show notes. And I appreciate you sharing that new website because I wasn't aware that you were doing something new on that. So I gotta sign up so I can get my lessons as well.

C (58:56)

Yes. Dr. Joy, please continue to keep doing what you're doing. You are quiet. You're not one of those people that's like loud about everything. And when you choose to do something and when you choose to speak, it is meaningful. And so I just want to encourage you to continue, continue, continue. Because I can only imagine in the spaces that you're in, it's not always easy. And so I just want to encourage you to continue. So thank you for this platform. Always.

A (59:25)

Thank you, Melissa.

B (59:26)

It's always a treat to chat with you. Thank you for joining us again.

C (59:29)

Absolutely.

A (59:33)

I'm so glad Melissa was able to join me for today's conversation to learn more about her and her work. Be sure to visit the show notes@theapyforblackgirls.com session 4 47. And don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If there's a book or movie you'd like us to review or have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM therapyforblack Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com directory don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and make sure to join us over in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyre Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making, and these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls, Inc. Is the leading expert on girls, and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones, and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls, Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not. Visit girlsinc.org these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations. But not in Rhode Island. Between affordable luxury stays, succulent seafood right from the source, and spectacular shopping that won't break the bank, you get a real bang for your buck in the Ocean State. The memories will be priceless, but the cost will be a lot less. Rhode island all that Plan your trip today@visitroadisland.com that's visit Rhode Island.com if you're tired of the tug, the heat and the hours it takes to blow dry your hair. I got you covered. Revair is a reverse air hair dryer that's changing the game for textured hair hair. It dries, stretches and smooths your hair all at once with way less heat, less damage and less time. Whether you're rocking coils, curls or kinks, Revair works with your texture, not against it. It's gentle, efficient and gives you that salon quality finish right at home. Imagine all the things you could get done in a day if you cut your styling time in half. With the holidays approaching, treat yourself or loved ones to healthier, shinier hair in a fraction of the time. Thousands of women are already loving the results and the time they are getting back in their day. And right now Revair is offering their lowest price of the season so you can look your best at your holiday events. You can also become a member and earn points and rewards every time you shop. Visit myravair.com today to shop their holiday sale. That's myraver.com com your crown deserves it. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.