C (5:16)

Well, thank you so much for Joining us today, Dr. Lewis.

B (5:19)

Thank you so much for having me.

C (5:20)

I would love for you to tell us more about how you got into the work that you're doing supporting families with financial aid.

B (5:27)

So this work begun 2015 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. That's where I'm from. I was really on a journey trying to figure out my own financial situation as it relates to just becoming an Adele understanding student loans. And also that's my professional background and I took a financial literacy course at church and what I realized in this course was there was no one to really talk about student loans or what to do with them. And so because that's what I have already been doing professionally at that point I said, well, I can help people and teach them. After class at the church, having lines of people coming in for a consultation that I never said I would give, but we're in the house of the Lord, so how could you not? And then I said, oh, okay. I said, well, if people are willing to come, I said they could pay me for my time. We could meet at corner bakery. I feel like every great business starts at a bakery somewhere with the plug and wi fi and then sometimes you have to flirt to get the table with the plug, but it's all right. So that's how it went for like the first six months. I didn't know any better. I was just trying to charge an hour when I got paid at work because there's no concept of what you're supposed to be paid as a business owner. And then I was like, I think I need to go up in my prices. I need a real office. Long story short, I was able to grow it into, well, technically it's a seven figure business now, consulting business, and I have coaches all over the world, but it really just started with me answering and helping people at the church. So here we are today.

A (6:55)

Yeah.

C (6:56)

And I would imagine that you have seen so much in terms of how the landscape has changed from year to year. Are there some major themes that you feel like have come up in your work with your students or with your, your clients and even maybe your coaches and their clients that you think are important to kind of highlight?

B (7:10)

I think that every administration has a different tone of how they handle student loan repayment. And so we brace ourselves because I've now been through a few administrations with this and unfortunately, right now, at the time of this podcast where it is missed, of just making sure that people understand that this administration, they're going to require you to pay, they're going to not make things so easy. We're coming off of a five year repayment pause because of the pandemic. So there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of unknown, there's a lot of unclear and not true information circulating around too that we try to clear up for people. But we know that student loans lives in the middle really of everything. Financial health, emotional health, just even how people interact with their personal relationships. If I get married, do I gotta tell my partner about my student loans? Yes. This shows up later when it's time to go buy a home together. So depending on what they come to the table with will depend on the problem that we're tackling.

C (8:12)

Yeah. So it sounds like a lot of the questions recently have been around like Repayment.

B (8:17)

Right.

C (8:17)

Like, whereas, you know, in the past couple of years, we've had a little bit more. Lacks a little bit more leeway. And you're saying now with this administration, folks really should be focusing on, okay, how do I actually start to repay these loans?

B (8:29)

Yeah, because if you don't, they will. So what I'm telling everyone is that the process of repayment has started. Right. A lot of people didn't know that, which is, okay, over half of them have started repayment, but over half of them didn't know. You only find out when your credit score drops or when you go to make a big purchase and then it shows up again. So people are really surprised that. And I think that there was like this thing that people were going to be notified that that repayment was happening. They're not notifying anyone.

C (9:00)

And so you mentioned that you feel like there's also a lot of misinformation out there, maybe about the repayment process or maybe about the process of getting loans in general. Can you clear up maybe some of those myths or bad information that you've heard out there?

B (9:13)

So a change that was recently announced with this administration was that they're going to be reclassifying or declassifying certain programs. And that. That really put people in uproar because it felt like a personal attack. Like, what do you mean? My nursing degree is not professional? Right. We'll use that field, for example. Technically, what the administration was saying is that certain fields, because of the return on investment from a student loan perspective, did not pay out as well as others over the years. I think this administration did not lead properly with, we are declassifying or reclassifying certain fields because there's a high default rate. If the administration would have led with numbers, I think people could understand numbers better than just, you're not a professional. I think that there was an opportunity to educate people instead of like penalizing them. But here we are. So that's one big change. You have to know, for those listening that are going to go back to grad school or just in general go to college, or they have family members or if someone's listening to their child's about to go to school. If your child wants to be, let's say, a teacher or a nurse, the question is there enough funding to take them all the way through? Therapists are included in this too. There's a lot of people, business owners like, for MBAs, is there enough funding to take you all the way through to complete your degrees at a master's or a doctoral level. So should you choose? Right, that's first big change. Because if not, that requires people to say, we're going to need scholarships, we're going to need grants, we're going to need to help our child pay for school. The second big thing is they're eliminating some repayment plans. So now we have to make sure that people are educated on, okay, this is what repayment looks like, this is what you're going to be required to pay or your credit score is going to drop. We want people also to be aware that forgiveness programs still exist. They're still around. The problem with that though is that the funding for forgiveness programs, I want to use an example like borrower's defense. If you went to a school that was a for profit school like University of Phoenix or Devry, you're eligible to get some of those loans or all of those loans forgiven. The challenge with that is that after July they can take some of their funding away. So in our space we're trying to educate the new person coming in. We're educating the person that's in and then we're educating the person that doesn't yet know about forgiveness programs they're eligible for. So every day we're kind of like in three head spaces with our cl just depending on what the person has going on, we kind of see what part of the conversation they need to deal with first. Does that answer your question? Because there's so many things and I.

C (11:51)

Have a lot of follow up questions that I'm sure will also help to kind of clarify. So one, you just mentioned that like people are in three different phases, right? Like they are coming into the system they're currently in or they're like kind of out and still figuring out like what the repayment options are. So student loans, I'm wondering, they do not work on like you follow the guidelines that were set when you entered the program, right? So if I like got loans 10 years years ago and like the, the rules were that, you know, I had 10 years to pay it back or whatever, does that change with every administration or am I locked in? Whatever I signed at the time I.

B (12:24)

Signed it, I'm going to answer this question professionally. People sign a promissory note, you can't do that, right? They're like, okay, take it back. So to answer your question, in general, that is not legal to do. So I always say we don't know with this administration what day and what hour you'll get. So to answer your question, if you signed up for student loans 10 years ago, there's a promissory note in which you will abide by. Those terms are still relevant today. Got it.

A (12:51)

Perfect.

C (12:51)

Like you said in general, right? Because we don't know what could be happening tomorrow. So the next question, and I definitely want to spend more time talking about this, I am trained as a psychologist, so there has been lots of conversations in the mental health space around this, like declassifying and changes in classification to things like psychology, nursing, social work. This is the first time I'm actually hearing it put the way that you put it. And so I do agree that, you know, that is the messaging that maybe could have led it. But I think for a lot of people this has felt very targeted, right? Because we also know that this is a space where we find lots of black women, right, like in the helping profession. I'm curious if these deals are the ones that you're saying are not having like a high return on investment. Which deals actually had a higher return on investment in terms of the ones that maybe are still classified as professionals.

B (13:41)

So when we talk about the reclassification, we know that historically students, students entering these fields that were targeted are coming from people of color, working class families, first generation backgrounds, right? You name it. So there's already financial barriers there. And so what we're seeing is that when we looked at the data, like, let's just talk about data, the data show that students that completed degrees, particularly not so much at the bachelor's level. I do want to stress that though. And the masters in the doctoral level had a higher default and less repayment rate. Now there could be a lot of things that we could really dive into. Right now we're talking about adults too. We're having trouble with prioritizing repayment. And so this administration said, and I don't agree with this, by the way, I'm just saying data, data shows that there were high default rates in these areas. But it also could be that there just could be a lack of understanding money, understanding how student loans work, understanding repayment options. And I want to say this, a lot of these programs are really expensive. So, Dr. Joy, what I always like to insert here is that don't make just the student or the borrower accountable, make the colleges and universities accountable. Why are these programs six figure programs? So then when someone comes out, they're going into the field of psychology, for example, everyone's not starting off with six figure salaries. Most people are not, but they borrowed it. Right? So the problem is, is that it's not A good investment in terms of money wise that we would say, okay, borrow 200,000, but you're only going to get paid 50. But when we talk about fields that are on track with repaying their loans, let me say this too. This administration has taken away a lot of data driven websites. So my background is that I was studying how African American women were impacted by student loan debt. So there were websites that I would use to pull on for data like this because that's what I was studying in my doctoral degree. Girl, they going now. So what I will tell you to be true is we think about someone that is going to be a neurosurgeon. Well, they probably won't take that financial funding away from them because the school won't comply with changing their prices. See, what I'm trying to say is that this is a big problem with our entire ecosystem. The education system is so messed up that why are we allowing schools to charge this amount of money then people have to borrow this amount of money. This administration does not believe in federal funding, period. This administration believes that funding should come from states or private. So when we saw them pull what I call a chess move and say, hey, we're going to take some funding away from these degrees. What they want people to do. Dr. Joy, let's not forget who makes money from this. When they leave office. They want you to go to a local bank. Let's say you go to a local pnc. And they want people to apply for a private loan at pnc. Now we know that credit is not treated fairly amongst black and brown women specifically. So then there could be what? Denials? Let me answer your question directly by saying that there isn't necessarily a published site that shows the programming of who are paying back their loans. Right? It's just that they honed in on these particular fields which historically affect people of color, particularly women.

A (17:03)

More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life. Partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. i'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, a board certified psychiatrist and health educator, this show takes you behind the counter to answer the questions you wish you'd asked, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends, and gives you real trustworthy advice from the experts you see most your neighborhood CVS pharmacists. No white coats, no lectures. Just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. From visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts in their reluctant relocation to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. In the community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of unforgettable personalities who push their 50 year marriage to the limit. There's Butch's flirtatious ex flame Ethel, spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples, and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today. Support for today's podcast comes from Chamberlain University. There's a difference between not knowing what's next and knowing exactly what you want but being afraid to go after it. If you're in the second group, maybe it's time to stop waiting. Chamberlain University has been preparing healthcare professionals for over 135 years. It's the largest nursing school in the country with flexible programs and real support to help students take that next step. Start today @chamberlain.edu. chamberlain University belongs to something greater certified to operate by Shiv.

C (20:12)

And I think it is a conversation around the larger ecosystem of like care because you mentioned like, oh, they're probably not going to take away funding from people who are going to medical school for like the neurosurgeons. But the neurosurgeon can't do his work if the nurse is not available to also right? So it does feel like this weird ranking which I think is always a conversation in the Medical space, right? See, six people in an hour. A social worker is only seeing one person in an hour. Right. And so the rates are already not the same. And so it is a larger conversation, I think, around just the hierarchy that exists both in the mental and medical space. But also, then what does that mean in terms of, like, care for our community? Because we know when there are more black therapists, like social workers, black nurses, then we are also typically working, or at least a higher rate of us are working in spaces where our community is also serviced.

A (21:00)

Right.

C (21:00)

And so that means, I think, a lack of care or the level of care in consideration that we would be expecting for our community to be able to get.

B (21:09)

So, Dr. Joe, I get triggered with this conversation a couple of ways, right? Because as a black woman, when the information first came out, I was all, in my feelings. Let's just, I'm human. I was like, oh, wait a minute. Then I had to put my scholar hat on.

A (21:20)

Okay?

B (21:20)

I had put my scholar hat on. And then I started doing some data research just to kind of see what they were saying. And something I think that was important to come out was that it wasn't just about any particular profession, although we know who it impacts the most. It was really reevaluating the program and the borrowing limits because of the data. Just the money part alone, right? And when I look at what I do, I've helped over 50,000 people collectively with my team. And if I, to be honest with you, yeah, these fields have a higher borrower and default rate. I have data that shows it just in my back end. Now, let's just put that on the table and say that this doesn't make people bad people. They're not being paid enough to pay back what they borrow. But we still need these people in these fields and professions. But then Dr. Giraffe put another hat on, and this is just me personally moving into a more philanthropic stage in my life. I think about, well, we really need our community to start being community. Like, we really need to start looking at where are our dollars going and how can we support students in these fields? Like, where could my dollar be be better served at in terms of scholarship money? Now, I also want to demystify in this season that everyone listening could do a scholarship back to one person at their church, their high school, their college to help our next nurse, to help our next therapist, our next psychologist. And it really is going to have to start to look like that, because I just think that the funding window federally is going to. Unless we get Some change of administration. It's going to get smaller, more restrictive, more biased. And then I think that we're going to have to really call on bigger entities like NAACP does, right? Our churches are going to have to be more targeted with the students in our community. Our community members such as you and I, could we have a scholarship for the therapy for black girls. And I think that's where I'm leaning into because sometimes there are problems that are just bigger than us. The first question I just asked myself when all this came out is, well, what can you do? So I know what I can do as a professional. I can, on my platform, my student loan doctor platform, I can educate. I do free classes every Monday anyway.

C (23:31)

I.

B (23:31)

Maybe I can do some more, right? Maybe I could. And actually not maybe what caused me to do this was when this news came out, I reached out to a lot of specific platforms like those that do, for example, with nursing, and I said, hey, I want to go to a hospital and see a black nurse. That's what I want to see. I want to work with black therapists. I want my dentist black. Like, I. I'm really very selective. That's what I want. But if I want that, then I got to support that too. And so now, see, Dr. Drew, I got to open up the ecosystem now. We got to open up the community. We really, in this country have a education problem. Down to investing in ourselves, down to, let's not support these institutions that are costing this much money. Why don't we support our community and state colleges more? We gotta de Stigmatize that. You went to a community or a state college. You should go there. Right? Because it's the same teacher teaching there at an Ivy League school at the same day. And then as a community, what can we start doing within our own communities? I know this year, Dr. Joy, I gave a lot of money to my high school, and I'm committed to giving more to my high school and to my college. That's where my giving between that tithes in the community. That's what I'm doing. Because that's the only thing I could think that would make me feel better about investing in the future of the landscape of these professions. Okay, I'm answering your question in several ways because I'm a woman, a black woman to a practitioner dollar. This is a huge, huge problem. And I don't want this conversation to be. I appreciate you asking these questions because I don't want this conversation to be swept under the rug because it's not a headline Anymore because someone's listening their kids or their cousins or their.

C (25:16)

In that window right now. Like, people are getting their acceptances and.

A (25:20)

Yeah.

C (25:20)

So this is the time to really start thinking about it. So when does this, like, new law go into effect, Dr. Lewis? So at what point is this?

B (25:28)

Because we still got an if, right?

C (25:30)

Okay, so it's still, it's not official yet. This is just something on the table.

B (25:33)

Let me tell you something about this administration, honey. They can put out something. You'd be like, it's done. And then you like.

C (25:40)

I mean, but does it matter? Because he's not really following the laws and rules as it's written.

B (25:46)

You pull out your chat GPT. It matters because when we have midterm elections and we have bigger elections at large because we know that these things aren't law yet, we can still have things in place to change them. It does matter. And I'm glad you said that because you could feel listening or seeing headlines like, it's right here. And then you could check out. I'm telling you all what happened to me. So I'm telling everyone listening to check back in. Right. You can still enforce change. So they're proposing for these changes to occur as of July 1st. Like, there are opportunities with really just at our local, our state government that impacts what happens, even on the federal level. So, yes, to your point, when this administration shares things, I'm, I'm saying this for everyone listening. It could feel like that's it. That's how they drop announcements these days. I ain't never seen nothing like it. No, you would think that there's no judicial process.

A (26:36)

Yeah.

B (26:37)

What I do appreciate is that there are still judges and there are still courts that are cutting this stuff down to size. They put out an announcement and then you got to stay with the news. Right. You got to see that the courts over said no, override it. No, Congress stepped in. So I'd be like, lord, thank you for letting somebody be their normal.

C (26:55)

So that feels like it could be like an intervention. Point is to actually, like when you talk about writing letters to Congress or getting on the phone and calling your. This is an opportunity because this is not something that has been signed into law.

B (27:07)

What I do, I can even share with your team what I share out on my Monday classes of how they can get into contact with people who would make a change in this space. So, yes, I'll get that information over to you guys because we can still do something and you have to be annoying and you have to call you have to be documenting, but you still have to be professional. Like we don't want a bunch of people calling up their cussing and, you know, things of that nature. Literally, I gave my students a script of what to say, what to do. Hang up. Yeah.

A (27:37)

Okay.

B (27:37)

Change.

C (27:38)

So it sounds like, you know, this is changing the ways that you're having conversations with your students about maybe would they even want to pursue.

A (27:45)

Right.

C (27:45)

So if I'm somebody who has dreamed of being a psychologist and now maybe I find with this, you know, maybe proposed change, I have to think about funding differently. Right. Because I know for a lot of people, psychologists specifically, like there was a forgiveness program and you may know more about this 10 years than your loans were forgiven. Is that something that's also on the chopping block as a potential something that's going to go away?

B (28:08)

There's a program called Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

A (28:10)

Yes.

B (28:11)

And it doesn't necessarily have to be rural. It just has to be in a nonprofit or not for profit. That program did not get clipped or cut. That is still through Congress. So I need everyone listening to know that there are two type of programs, a Congress program and a Department of Education program. Department of Education programs can be changed, clipped, cut, modified, per administration. Public Service Loan Forgiveness is a Congress program. So we're good.

A (28:36)

More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. i'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks, do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, a board certified psychiatrist and health educator, this show takes you behind the counter to answer the questions you wish you'd asked, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends and gives you real trustworthy advice from the experts you see most your neighborhood CVS pharmacist. No white coats, no lectures, just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts in their reluctant relocation to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. In the community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of unforgettable personalities who push their 50 year marriage to the limit. There's Butch's flirtatious ex flame Ethel, spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples, and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today. Support for today's podcast comes from Chamberlain University. There's a difference between not knowing what's next and knowing exactly what you want, but being afraid to go after it. If you're in the second group, maybe it's time to stop waiting. Chamberlain University has been preparing healthcare professionals for over 135 years. It's the largest nursing school in the country with flexible programs and real support to help students take that next step. Start today @chamberlain.edu. chamberlain University belongs to something greater, certified to operate by Shiv.

C (31:44)

But I do think still it's back to my original point of, you know, I think this could lend itself to people thinking differently about, like what kinds of things they want to pursue in terms of career. Because you mentioned you haven't seen it so much, kind of getting cut at the bachelor's level. But a lot of these programs that you're talking about, there's very little that you can do with a bachelor's in psychology, right? Like you have to get a master's at least to be able to practice and stuff. And so what kinds of conversations or how are you helping your students think through?

B (32:13)

A lot of our clients are already done with school, so I bring these conversations to our platform because we were working with a lot of parents and a lot of people who are invested in their loved ones that are going to school. To answer your question, what I would advise anyone listening that's thinking about going to school for their master's or their doctoral degree, let's just make sure we have enough funding to be able to cover it because they cut out what's called grad plus funding, which is very significant to pay for your master's or doctoral level degrees. Also the thing is someone could still go for a master's or a doctoral degree, but it's probably going to require them to work and go to school. So before you could just do one or the other because there was enough funding to support your lifestyle while you or in school. But now it's not the case. And I want to also say this. Can we find someone else to pay for school? Can we find an employer to help us pay? Because there are employers that will help you pay for write offs too. That's one thing I think is underutilized. I've often seen people get a master's, not really doctoral degree, but a master's and then not even work in the field. Like why did we take this degree on? So we need to make sure that people have a clear understanding before borrowing at this level what it is that they want to do in the world too. This is not the season to enroll and then figure it out. This is the season to have things pretty already figured out. And then. Am I saying that right, Dr. Joy, because you ever. I don't know if this happened to you, but it happened to me in my undergrad. In my undergrad I was a psychology major. Yes, I was. I was got to my junior year, I tell you. And I could not pass the class called Methods. I had to.

C (33:56)

The stats class?

B (33:58)

Yeah, Methods. And then there was another class I couldn't pass. It was two. I had to keep a rat alive. What was that class called?

C (34:04)

Oh, experimental technology.

B (34:08)

Couldn't pass it. And I was on a scholarship too. And they were about to take my scholarship because I couldn't pass the class. And I said may not be for me. So then I had to pivot. My bachelor's is in anthropology. At the core of it. What I really, really wanted to be, Dr. Joy, was a teacher. But there was a negative connotation that teachers don't make money. All the people in my family are teachers. But I think that I wish that there was an opportunity to have some more coaching and career coaching for myself at that point around what did I want to be or do before going into college? So I'm using the story to say anyone listening that has children, family members, we, we have to sit our young people down and ask them what do you want to be? What would make you happy? Before just allowing our students to just Blindly study and figure it out. It's a hard thing. It's. The times are changing. There's not an infinite amount of money anymore to be able to just kind of figure stuff out.

C (35:03)

Yeah, yeah, it does feel like. Because I think historically, you know, college is a time where you explore.

A (35:08)

Right.

C (35:08)

Like, I don't know what I want to do. That's why you take a bunch of stuff.

A (35:11)

Right.

C (35:11)

And you're saying the landscape has changed so much that. But it's expensive to try to explore, like at that point. Right. Like the exploration almost has to happen ahead of time before you spend a bunch of money pursuing something that's not going to be a good deal for you.

B (35:24)

Yeah. Internships can help with that. Pre college experience can help with that. I would rather someone go to a community college before a traditional college to alleviate costs with that. There has to be a way to explore without putting out all of that cost because that money is so short now that that pool of money is no longer available like it once was.

C (35:49)

You mentioned, Dr. Lewis, an option, and I would love to hear other things maybe that you share with your students. In terms of looking at, like, employers who will sometimes help you to pay for the cost of schooling, are there other creative things that people should be exploring that maybe they're not aware of in terms of finding other entities to pay for school?

B (36:05)

Well, I think that. Let's just go back to employment. You ever look at your employment policy and they say that they'll help you with tuition reimbursement? You know, you can propose to your lawyer, and I don't have it in front of me, so just use ChatGPT or, you know, let's find this out. But you could take that same policy and ask them for student loan reimbursement. Employers are able to reimburse student loans the same way they give upfront for tuition. But people don't think to ask that because it's not a common practice. But I dare someone listening to have a meeting with your manager at HR and say, I see that there is a tuition reimbursement policy, but what's missing is a student loan reimbursement policy. Is there any way that could be considered if I was able to show proof that I'm paying on my student loans? Doesn't hurt to ask question is there? This is actually something that's in the tax code that allows employers to do this. And when I found this out, I was like, oh, wow. I was like, I wonder why more employers don't use it as A tool for hiring. So we just have to access number one.

A (37:12)

Okay.

B (37:13)

Number two, Dr. Joy. Something I've done in my real life. Anyone listening? You ought to start negotiating some things in your raises and your bonuses when you are. And please don't do this if you're not the best at your job. Okay? So that's my caveat. Got to be sharp. So I was really, really good when I was working at the college, and I can say that and wouldn't complain about it. I really love my job. And I realized that the metrics that were set up for bonuses and raises, they were just a little low for me. And I was doing work of like two or three reps. I was working in college admissions, and I just simply asked. I said, hey, listen, just wondering if there's a space for a couple extra thousand for my bonus this year. I said, my student loan payments have gone up. And that was my exact words. I just asked, but I was really good at my job. And I said, please don't answer now. I say, do you want to meet about it and get back to me? Now I'm laughing because that was a lot of audacity in my 20 something years of life. But, girl, my payments went up. I needed to ask, right? And they came back and said yes. So I don't know. I'm just saying some unconventional conversations might need to happen this season because employers want to retain good talent, right? Okay. So if someone's listening, that's not eligible for public service loan forgiveness, and they already do charitable good work, and they want to have their own nonprofit. Like, don't just start a nonprofit for the sake of getting your loans forgiven. But if you have a nonprofit or you're starting one and you have a board, you've taken the time to formalize it legally and you're compliant, your board member could sign off for you to get credit towards public service loan forgiveness. So there are quite a few thousand people we've helped with this. What I appreciate is I know that we impact change because I noticed that the studentaid.gov website started changing their verbiage around what to do if you have your own nonprofit and how to be compliant. I was like, I know we impacted some things in the world. You can't tell me nothing. But anyway, also at this time, we were doing a lot of work with the Biden administration and Secretary Cardona. Oh, how we miss them so much. So it wasn't unbeknownst to me that there could been someone on our free class hearing us talk about that, because we do have people that, especially those that are listening to your podcast that are therapists. You know, sometimes it's hard for therapists to get qualified for PSLF because they're doing private work. But what if you're listening and you have your own nonprofit and you do do great work in the community? Could someone from your board sign off to be able to attest to you working in this nonprofit? Just a thought. If we're thinking about going back to school, I think what I'd see is that a lot of my older students that are going back for a master's or a doctoral degree feel a little, like, embarrassed, if you will, or a little ashamed for going towards scholarships because they feel like that's not something for older people. And it's like, who gave you that? I'd like to take that away from them today, throw that away this year and go apply for some money. We have something in our community called don't beware. And I say this to my students. People say to me all the time, Dr. Lewis, when I worked at the hospital in 2015, 15 I left there. But I don't know if they liked me when I worked there. Like, did you work. Did you work there for 30 hours? Were your student loans in good standing? Did you work there? Yes. Like, go get your paperwork signed and let's get this credit towards forgiveness. So I do want to say that because I didn't say that earlier. Anyone listening that worked in a qualifying field, nonprofit or not, for profit, 2007 to 2022, you can go back to your employer. You work there at least 30 hours a week and have them sign off a testing that you work there. It doesn't matter even if you never made a student loan payment, as long as you work there. Your student loans were good standing. You work there for 30 hours a week. You can still get credit towards forgiveness in that. That program, public service loan forgiveness, because people will forget that they work places or they think because they left and they don't remember leaving on the best terms. Or did you work there? Were you in good standing? 30 hours a week, Go get your credit. You know how many people we get forgiven a week with that program? About, like 60 people a week get forgiven just for that one. They got to go do the work. Right. They got to go get it signed. They don' One lady, oh, my God. God bless her, almost blocked her. She kept messaging me and she just kept saying, I just feel uncomfortable reaching out to them. It's been so long ago. I Told her, I said, this is my last time responding. I said, you need to go do the paperwork. All right, fast forward. I was speaking at, I think Invest Fest or something, I don't know. And she like flew in just to give me a hug and she said, thank you for not blocking me. She said, I wanted to tell you because you motivated me to go in to get my paperwork signed. She got 250,000 forgiven. So we would say in our community, don't be weird. Go get your paperwork. Right. So anyone listening, I'm telling you right now that has some work history that they have not claimed towards forgiveness. And that window is still open to get that paperwork signed.

C (42:14)

So where do you start this process? Like, is this something that still exists on the studentaid.gov website? So what should people look for to, like, maybe check on this studentaid.gov and.

B (42:24)

Then type in TE P SLF so temporary expanded Public service Loan forgiveness. The form will come up and then you just go to your. You want to fill out the first one or two pages. But there's an employer section. All we need is their name, their email, their phone number, their signature, their testing. The minimum hours a week is 30 hours a week for that time period 2007 to 2022. Okay, here's the next question. Well, what if they closed? What if my manager no longer works there? Girl, don't you know, it's something called Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram. Most times we're in connection with our old employers in some capacity. But go find the people that used to work in management HR at those jobs.

C (43:09)

So it doesn't need to be like your direct boss. It could be somebody who was in HR over the entire company, that you didn't even have any. And even if you never knew them, they should still have your records. Right? So they can still pull it up and say, yes, I can see this person worked here from this day to this day.

B (43:24)

Dr. Joy, there's a lot of women that listen to this podcast. Ladies, if somebody was coming after your man, he was on her. Pull up somebody listening. Let's say they owe 300,000 in student loans. Act like the person to this signature owes you $300,000. Because they do. We need to get rid of these student loans. Go find someone to sign this. You want it to be, if possible, west signature. Or you can, like email the form. They could scan it back in my experience. Yeah, so like. But not to be funny, you might need to pull up on the old job, like, and go get a signature. Yeah, 300,000 is on the line here. You've got time. So that's what I tell people. When we start framing it that way, you'd be surprised. We saw all these signatures coming through our community.

C (44:11)

I love that.

B (44:12)

I love that I'm here to be respected. So while I'm pleasant, I'm very straightforward in this community because these are adults that we do not have time to coddle in the world. Their student loan forgiveness is dependent upon home buying. It's dependent upon the people that are counting on them. So why we do not have the time to baby people in this community. So, yes, we're giving it to them straight today.

A (44:32)

Yes.

C (44:33)

So I love the example that you're giving because I do think, like you mentioned, right, like there are so many stories that we create in our heads that are not based in any truth, but are often based fear or like anxiety or insecurity. Are there other things that you find yourself kind of having to challenge people around in the best interest of, you know, kind of going after their money or getting the support they need?

B (44:53)

This is true Therapy podcast. And by the way, I really do love your podcast. When I got the message, I was like, listen, this is up here near Oprah with me, honey. So there's this conversation with money that I was having with myself that I didn't know I was having. Now I'm working some stuff out because I was telling my therapist from going from overdrafting, like, I used to overdraft my account. Like I had planned for that. All right? So my account used to overdraft to now I don't overdraft now I'm in surplus. I do very well with money, right? But there's still some broke behaviors that are showing up in my life, right? Like, why is this still showing up? And it's because even though I have some money and even though I'm I pay my bills, auto pay, you know, there's still a thing that I haven't let go, which is a scarcity mindset. And so what I'm seeing here with those that are figuring out their student loans, some people, yes, cannot afford to pay their student loans. Yes, I agree. But there are some people who can and that there's this old stigma that you don't have to pay them back, you're not going to pay them back. You may not be using the degree. Why should you pay it back? And the only person is hurting is themselves. You're hurting you right now. If you're listening, you're hurting you. You're not keeping up with your counterparts who are in the world that are buying homes, investment properties, crypto, whatever. We're doing right with our monies, and we have to. Dr. Joy, we've got to start having some real conversations to say, let's figure out what we can afford. Let's figure out what we can do with our student loans so we're not left behind in this ecosystem because the student loan shows up with the credit, it shows up with the home buying. It shows up when it's time to invest. It shows up if your child needs you later on. So we've got to overcome these conversations about money with ourselves. And I think that for anyone that truly believes in therapy, I would like for them to ask themselves, what are their thoughts about money this year? And let that be a conversation to work through with their therapist, because it's starting to play a role into what people are not doing with these loans. What's coming up for me with our clients is we are not therapists. Let me be clear. Okay. So we always take it back to what is showing on studentaid.gov and what happens is before we can even talk about what a payment could look like and figure out, you got to hear the client for 10 minutes talk about the shame around what they borrowed or the feelings about what they borrowed, or we let people talk, but the theme is people. It's like they feel bad. We want to move them from feeling bad to empowerment to going to doing something about this. So that's what's coming up a lot for us right now. There's a lot of shame around what people owe.

C (47:30)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, and I think just historically, we know this, right? Like, there's a lot of shame just around money, I think, in general, in our community.

A (47:37)

Right.

C (47:38)

Like, and it does stem from the scarcity and, like, us just not having it historically. Right. And so now, even if you do have some, there are all these old messages, old stories that really need to be reconstructed. Something you said made me think of. For a long time, people thought about student loans as good debt, right? Like, this is not something that you have to worry about. Like, oh, you can pay the least amount. And so I'm glad that you keep bringing us back to, like, no, no, no, y'. All, like, this shows up on your credit report. Like, there's not a separate credit report that exists only for, like, student loan stuff. It's all lumped in together with, like, credit card and anything else that you have accumulated.

B (48:14)

They're using defaulted loans as a metric. They as in government officials to not give people government clearances or jobs.

C (48:23)

Okay.

B (48:24)

You could. And this is what's really crazy. You could have went to school. You could have did. And if you ever default on a student loan, you could block yourself from a clearance with the government, even as a contractor. And so that's keeping a lot of our black and brown people from advancing because they didn't know. Like, I'm sharing it on this podcast. This has happened to, like, in the last year, at least, like, 50 of our clients reported that they lost a job because of it. Like, so they got hired. I'll use an example. Lockheed Martin, contractor of the government, hires you, loves you, excited about you. You can't pass the security clearance because of the defaulted student loan.

A (49:00)

Yeah, yeah.

B (49:01)

What do you want to do? You. They like, that's it.

C (49:03)

Also, you can't, like, get it out of default and, like, reapply because you.

B (49:07)

Defaulted at least once in your life. Like, being more talked about because people are going back into repayment and are finding out your surge of it because now people can actually be in default. And that wasn't the case in, like, the last five years.

C (49:21)

Got it. There's so many more questions, but I do want to. I don't want to take up your whole day, but I do want to make sure we address, you know, instead of going into default. Like, if you realize, okay, I just got laid off, this is going to be difficult for me. What should people do instead of defaulting on loans? Like, what kinds of options do you have?

B (49:40)

First of all, let's just take a deep breath because life happens, right? And you are not the layoff. That's why I tell people, like, sometimes, Dr. Joy, the layoff be the layup. Okay, that's a whole nother podcast. But what I want people to know is that if they can remember, because life is lifey, they would go into studentaid.gov under the loan repayment tab, click the Income Driven application. And they're just going to do an update or a new application, and there's a question that says, do you have taxable income? The answer would be no. So you go through the applications, like on page three or four, do you have taxable income? No. You have to then check where it says, do you want your loan provider to do a manual review of your income? You have to hit yes. Okay, so income change or taxable income? No. Manual review. Yes. Has there been any changes with your income? Yes. And then it says, do you want your loan provider to do a manual Review? Yes. Do you have taxable income? No. That's it. So very important how you answer those questions, because those questions will then trigger you to have a $0 payment for the year. So that way you don't go into default, they require no payment of you. Because we're saying that there's a life change, there's no taxable income, we're fine. So that's important for people to hear because if not, most people won't do anything. They're in a headspace and then they go into default. And the application could have taken care of that.

C (51:04)

Okay, I appreciate you sharing that and walking us through those steps.

B (51:07)

Yeah. The guys come by like this. Let me say this. Hopefully people stay in touch with me after this episode because every Monday, 8pm EST, we do a free class where we literally log into studentaid.gov together and we see what's going on together. Dr. Jo, I'm not making this up. Every two weeks they're changing that website and application, so they're like reordering the questions. Very sneaky. I don't like it because you might have heard me say this before, but now you got to go click another place. And so we just want people to stay connected with us. And literally we have people that show up for the last year every Monday because stuff is changing all of the time. Where would you find out about these updates? It didn't get published anywhere. It didn't get published on the website, it didn't get published on the news website. So it's like, unless you're in there clicking around, you wouldn't know.

C (51:55)

So, Dr. Lewis, you've mentioned this a couple of times. I definitely want to make sure we know where to point people. So where can people stay connected with you to find out about the classes and all the things that you offer?

B (52:04)

So we act like a news reporter. Our Instagram page, the Student Loan Doctor, is where it's my favorite social media platform for where I put up like, like 90 second to three minute clips of what's happening in the world. Right. And then outside of that, Monday nights, they can register through the Instagram page or the website is Dr. Please help me.

C (52:22)

Com.

B (52:22)

It's a free class. You don't have to pay to be there. It's about a two hour class and we literally teach you from the Rudy to the Tutti. Repayment plans, forgiveness programs. Let's log in together. You'd be surprised. People put in the chat, I haven't logged in four years. So they're feeling empowered. Right? And then from there, if we can help them, we will. But most times, people just need to be in an environment that's safe, that we're all tracking the same way. Sometimes I do a poll, like I might do one tonight that says, how much do you all owe? I do that sometimes because I need people to see. You ain't the only one that got 500,000. You know, like last month, we got A guy forgiven $997,000, right? That's right at a million, and we didn't make him feel bad about it. So we want anyone from the little bit to the lot in class so that they can just learn without pressure. And then you go in the world and figure out what you need to do. So I really love the community we're creating. Nobody's showing up where nobody's being a bully. We actually set the tone for class. I love doing that. If you show up mean, where you will be dropped from the zoom, never to return. We don't have those issues. And it's a safe space and people you can see with their notebooks taking their notes and really participating and playing along. And then I just feel really proud that we're a part of educating the community at large about their student loans. And before our platform, I just love to say there was not a lot of people that was talking about this topic. Honey, don't mix us in with credit either. We're not that. Like, we just want to talk about student loans, right? And I love that we are finally. We've been in business now for 10 years, Dr. Joy. We're doing press like CNN. We just did ABC World News. We're doing some really big stuff in the world. And I'm like, we earned that because we show up every day, all day. I had to put my appointment back for the world and do my little update because, see, you gotta remember and you know about this. Like, when something big comes out, people's brain can't always process it, and they're looking for someone they trust to give them the facts right? In a safe space, and then they can go on with their day. So that's what we do. So if you want to see my little AI avatar, mind your business, because that was the day that my makeup wasn't done or something, and I got a little AI that looked like me. I say, it's AI. I'll be trying to trick nobody. Say it's powered by AI Sasha. Because when news comes out, who am I to go get dressed or buy lashes done or something? Prison. Just take the information going about today.

C (54:48)

I love it when it's definitely needed right now. So thank you so much for that service because it sounds like it's helping a lot of people. And we will be sure to include that information in the show notes so that people can get connected with you and your coaches so that they can learn even more about how to take care of. Of themselves and their financial health.

B (55:03)

And thank you so much for your platform. I'm telling you, girl, you done got me through some stuff, but you have helped. And so I think your platform is just so important because it's a lot like, this is not yesterday's yesterday.

A (55:15)

Yes.

B (55:16)

And you're trying to process personal relationships, professional relationships, the different roles you wear. Oh, you got your finances on fire. Like, who are we? And sometimes it's just good to just take a moment, take a beat, to be like, like, is it really that serious? And then I feel like your voice is so befitting, like, I don't know. God gave me the voice because I'm like, if Dr. Joyce said, go get some shy tea and work out your problems. So just continue. Dr. Joy, I don't know how much longer you want to do this work, but we love and appreciate the work that you're doing.

C (55:45)

Thank you.

B (55:45)

I was so thrilled with the invitation. Really was. I mean, this is like my Oprah moment. I mean, Oprah, you could call me though, right?

C (55:52)

Don't get it confused. Okay. We will still accept the invitation, but.

B (55:56)

I love, love, love the work that you're doing. You've helped me out many a time. You got a lot of people say for being cussed out. The Lord is doing a work in you. Because I said, what did she say before I call this person back.

C (56:05)

There you go. There you go. I appreciate that. Thank you. And thank you for spending some time with us today. I appreciate it.

B (56:12)

Yes. Thanks so much.

A (56:13)

Of course. I'm so happy Dr. Lewis was able to join us for today's episode to learn more about her or to register for her free Monday night student loan classes or stay up to date on policy changes. Be sure to visit the show notes at therapy for black girls.com session451. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for black Girls and let us know what's on your mind, we just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory. Don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and join us in our Patreon Channel for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Today I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to. Degree Holder that's where a national university comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults with over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from. They have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu.

B (58:34)

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.