← Therapy for Black Girls
Therapy for Black Girls
Session 452: Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing Now? Romance, Identity & Online Culture
00:51:20
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- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.
- [00:56]
Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining Me for session 452 of the therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
- [01:04]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
a word from our sponsors.
- [01:11]
LingoKids Ad Voice 1
Are you a parent who feels guilty about screen time?
- [01:14]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
No.
- [01:14]
LingoKids Ad Voice 1
Well, no, not you, sweetheart, but your mommy and daddy do.
- [01:18]
Shantae Joseph
Why?
- [01:19]
LingoKids Ad Voice 1
Because too many apps are filled with AI garbage, inappropriate videos, and random content
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LingoKids Ad Voice 2
like a dancing potato or worse.
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That's. That's what parents worry about. We're Lingokids, and we're here to help parents out. LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids because kids love it and parents can trust it. They want something safe and fun. Yes, fun, but also something that actually
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teaches you big words like fomosynthesis. Fomosynthesis. Fomosynthesis.
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Yeah, close enough. And they want fun songs, videos, and interactive games that help you grow, not
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turn you into a zombie that bites other zombies. And then the zombies take over the world and then fly to space and live on the moon and fly in rocket ships on planets with loads of candy.
- [02:07]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yep.
- [02:07]
Shantae Joseph
Bingo, kids.
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Everything kids love. Download the app for free.
- [02:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and your mind goes blank when the pharmacist asks any questions? That's why you need to listen to beyond the script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, this podcast answers the questions you wish you'd asked, like which meds may not work well together, what vaccines you might need before a trip, and even the ones you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
and a leg, especially vacations.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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- [03:12]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this the year of you if earning a degree has been on your mind, National University has your back. They understand the realities of busy working professionals like you in their flexible online formats. Four and eight week courses and monthly class starts help you fit school into your life, not the other way around. And Right now, National University's year of you scholarship offers up to $6,000 annually for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. Make this the year of you at NU. Learn more today at NU.edu. from Creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age stars comedy legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer and Niecy Nash Betts. It follows recently retired couple Dotted Butch Watts reluctant relocation to their new Floridian home that is anything but relaxing. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today. Where were you when the Is having a boyfriend embarrassing Now? Article dropped late last year when the piece came out, it immediately took Internet discourse by storm and had a lot of people in heterosexual relationships questioning and taking a deeper look into their relationships. The piece pushed a lot of us to ask ourselves, what does it actually look like to publicly claim my partner? I'm excited to welcome the woman behind the article, London based writer and digital content producer Shantae Joseph, whose nuanced commentary on culture had all of us in quite a tizzy. Today we'll unpack the realities of dating in the digital age and how women are redefining partnership as society shifts further away from patriarchy. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession. Or join us over in our Patreon to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.
- [05:37]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Thank you so much for joining us today. Chante.
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Shantae Joseph
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
- [05:43]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, I am so thrilled to chat with you. I feel like you have one of the articles that were read around the world is having a boyfriend now embarrassing? And so I would love to get some background from you? Like, was there something in particular that you saw going on that, like, was the origin for that piece or where did it come from?
- [06:02]
Shantae Joseph
I think I just started to notice that people are being really weirdly kind of secretive about their partners online, and not just people who are celebrities, were just, like, regular degular people. And I kind of started to see that just online, our conversation around relationships, particularly heterosexual relationships, was changing quite drastically, and it didn't have this same sort of sense of aspiration and achievement that it once did. And so I was wondering if these two things were connected. In the uk, there were, like, two quite big, I guess, influencers or content creators who. One got married and one was proposed to. And in both the wedding video and in the engagement video, the partner's faces were always cut out of the frame. And I was like, this is so weird. And also it started to become, like, a bit of a mockery of itself. Like, people would do things to intentionally cut out their partner's head in order to make fun of or make light of people who do it. And I was like, wow, why is this actually happening? And so I just pitched it as a. As an idea that I would go out into the world and speak to women about and try to figure out why this is happening. And, yeah, it was just really interesting. All of the people who came back to me and was speaking to me about the piece and giving me their insights and sharing their perspectives, and they had, like, a myriad of reasons why they were doing it. But I guess the big thing was that there was this idea of being in a romantic relationship with a man indicated a politics or a way of being or a personhood that I did not identify with. And it just felt like fundamentally quite uncool. And so it was just really interesting to see those experiences and hear from those women and how they helped shape the piece, but also, like, you know, they were part of the wider conversation that happened afterwards. Everyone was sharing their opinions on the piece.
- [07:50]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, I mean, I think the title just itself. I don't know if you were responsible for the title or if that was the editorial staff, but the title is very jarring. Right. And so it is definitely something that is going to get a lot of conversation. But it also seems like there was a very stark response to the piece. And you have talked about this whiplash almost of, oh, my gosh, people are reading like, journalism is back, but also like, oh, this is what's wrong with the Internet kind of thing. Can you talk about, like, some of the response that you received post the
- [08:16]
Shantae Joseph
article, I think you had a lot of women who, who loved the piece. They were like, this is amazing. A lot of women who, for most of their lives, they felt really bad about being single. Their singleness felt like it was indicative of something more. Not nefarious, but just something that was, like, lacking in them. And now they kind of felt like, oh, this kind of identity that I aspire to, to be someone's girlfriend to boyfriend, isn't actually as kind of interesting and magical as I thought it was. And so there was a sense of relief for them. And then you kind of had women in relationships who felt really attacked by the piece, especially women who had been single for a long time who would just say things like, you know, I finally got a partner. And now everyone is saying it's uncool, like, why are you doing this to me? And it was just a bit like, I hear it. But you know, for them it was like they wanted to cling onto the, I guess the prestige that this identity gave them. And then you had the men who were just fuming, they were so angry they were not having it, sending me a lot of hate, a lot of threats, just really awful things. And I've been online for such a long time and I've been writing for such a long time. And, you know, I used to write a lot around, like, anti racism things like Black Lives Matter in the UK and you know, all of the stuff that happens here. And I would get a lot of backlash and racist abuse online or whatever. And you get very used to that. I mean, this is terrible, but like, I think when you're a black woman online and you have opinions and you're talking against, I guess, the women, what is the norm? People don't like it and they get really angry at you. So I was used to that for a long time. But the energy, the hatred I got from these men, these like, incels deep in the manosphere, that was scary. That was petrifying. And it just taught me a lot about where, I guess a lot of men are politically and how their sort of mellonness epidemic is manifesting in this sort of like hatred and violence against women. And yeah, they couldn't stand it. And then, and I can say to you, there was like another level of like, racism in this, in the sense that as a black woman, I am writing this piece, is having a boyfriend embarrassing now? And a lot of white women are taken to it and they love it. And then white men were seeing that and they were kind of angry at me for being the person who ruined the sanctity of, like, white Western relationships. You know, I had a lot of women being like, I just done my boyfriend. I just work with my boyfriend because of this piece, blah, blah. And then you would have boyfriends who would be, like, angry at me. And it was really, really, really wild. And the insults were very interesting because it would be like the kind of typical misogyny, but it would just be like, you're a black woman. You're the least desired. No one wants you. You're not even good looking. Of course you think having a boyfriend's embarrassing. No one wants you. You're ugly. Like, it was just so. It was just so personal, so vindictive. There's something about racism that is, like, somewhat impersonal. Like, just because of kind of my skin, this is what you think I am. It doesn't really have anything to do with me, but it's just like, how I present. But it was just like, racism. It was misogyny. It was like me being a woman, me being a black woman online with opinions, and it was like just layers and layers and layers and layers of abuse all kind of piled up, or people just really, really angry about it. So it was a lot.
- [11:26]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And I think that there's something to be said about a piece that it, like, strikes so many chords for people, kind of on the more positive end and on the very negative end. But I also wonder, like, what are your thoughts around, like, just the psychology of reading, like, an article and, like, so identifying with it, right? Because in a lot of ways, like, in the psychology world, you became the bad object for these men, right? Like, oh, she's the reason why my wife hates me, not all the other awful things I've done her.
- [11:52]
Rhode Island Tourism Ad Voice
Right?
- [11:53]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
This one article. And so what are your thoughts just around, like, the psychology of, like, why people reacted so strongly to the piece?
- [12:00]
Shantae Joseph
I think for the women who are really upset, I think it's because they too, need to believe in the privilege of the heterosexual relationship. And if you are someone who doesn't have a lot of privileges in society and straightness and like, your heteronormative identity is a privilege, then you want to hold onto that. And that's not to say that they hate everyone else, but I think there's an element of, like, oh, I might have to relinquish the idea that this identity I hold, this performance is something that will gain me more access to things or more cultural capital. And then for men, I think, think their anger was more to do with the fact that they are losing power in so many spheres in life, in the workplace, in education, even in the home. Like, men do not retain the same level of like power and dominance that they once had. And the only place that they can really and truly exert that now is within the emotional space in the dating world. Like as much as we have progressed so much as women and we can open bank accounts and work and be educated, I sometimes feel like there's this sort of, I was reading the paper about a cultural lag where what we see as normal, I guess ordinary for a woman to do today, like being independent, whatever, hasn't necessarily caught up with the ideas we have around singleness and womanhood. And there's still, I think people are caught in this, this desire to want something that's traditional while living a very modern life. And so because of that, that's yearning to be in, in these emotional dynamics with men. I think a lot of women do relinquish a lot of power to men in these emotional worlds. And if now having a boyfriend is embarrassing, being romantically associated with a man is embarrassing and you're taking back some of your power, they don't like that. Where else are they going to exert dominance? Where else are they going to be able to prove and show and display masculinity if not in dominating the emotional worlds in this way? And so I think on a deeper level it was an insecurity for men and women. Women not being able to have privilege of a heterosexual partnership, men not having emotional dominance in the dating world. And so I think that's what really got people riled up. And then you just had women who had historically always felt bad about their singleness feeling like, oh my gosh, like are the tables turning? Are things changing? And that really shocked me the most because I'm 29, I'm 30 this year, but I was getting messages from like 21 year olds, like 19 year olds who just felt like because they didn't have boyfriends in their lives, they felt less than. They felt like they weren't good people. They felt like there's something wrong with them, which really broke my heart because I can't believe from such a young age you guys are conditioned to believe and think that because there is not a man displaying any interest in you, you are rendered invisible. It starts so young. And so for them it was affirming this idea that they are actually okay. And like being in a relationship doesn't necessarily make them any better as people. So that was like a good thing, but I guess, yeah, it depend depending on your situation, you read it very differently.
- [15:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
And what was that like? Kind of taking care of yourself in the aftermath of this virality.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
- [15:15]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Because I think that's a piece that is not often talked about. Like you have this piece that is read around the world and then you're having all this positive reaction, but also very negative reaction. How did you find yourself reacting and
- [15:25]
Shantae Joseph
what did you need to do to
- [15:26]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
take care of yourself?
- [15:28]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, I went right back to therapy. I have been confident in therapy every single week since the article came out. Wow. Every single week. Because it was crazy. It was so crazy because you're not only are you kind of getting this like hate and abuse, but then you're having like hundreds and thousands of people following you online, looking at what you're doing, engaging what you're doing, wanting to know what you're thinking about this thing. There's the anticipation of like, what are you gonna do next? And then there are people who are prying into your life. Do you have a partner? Do you have a boyfriend? Oh, you don't have a boyfriend? Or that's why you think that, you know, people becoming really kind of, I guess, familiar and personal with you in a way that can just feel quite confronting. And then I think there was just a lot around trying to almost protect and preserve like myself and my thoughts and my ideas and not feel too invested in it in some ways. I felt the leader of a movement almost. And then I felt a huge sense of responsibility to make sure I was doing all of the right things, saying all of the right things, showing up online in the right ways. And that was really overwhelming. And so, yeah, I had to like go to therapy. I had to really work out all of this stuff. And also because the comments would be so personal, like they were hitting at like wounds, they were hitting out old wounds that I was like, oh, okay, this is really triggering something in me. I need to find a space where I can have these conversations so they don't affect the quality of my work going forward. And so I had to really lock in and like just deal with a lot of stuff that was coming up, I think from people just trying to be really malicious and evil towards me.
- [17:06]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know, that's really interesting. And I want to hear more about this, like this idea that, you know, especially for a writer in this landscape, right, like to have a piece that hits like this and then you say like, oh, is this some like movement? Like people are latching on to. It feels like there could be the pressure, like, oh, this is my lane, right? Like, now I gotta, like, gear my career and my writing towards this. But you were already writing your book, like, your book coming out later this year. So how are you kind of navigating that pressure to kind of be like, oh, the boyfriend embarrassing woman.
- [17:39]
Shantae Joseph
It's so true. They want you to be that thing. And I think it's difficult for me because I've been writing for years and years and years, and I kind of write a piece and then I move on, and then I write the next piece and then I move on. Like, so it's really weird to be kind of stuck in this place and frozen in with this idea. And so I've had to really work hard to try and make sure I'm pitching ideas or writing things that feel different, that show the kind of breadth of my interest and my experiences and the thoughts I have in the world beyond just sort of dating. Because I kind of feel like it becomes repetitive after a while. And because I am not a professional, I am not like a mental health expert. I'm never going to be online doing, like 10 signs. You have a weird attachment style, like six ways. That is not my bag. So I can never go online and start becoming a relationship expert. I'm just interested in relationships. I'm interested in how we're doing dating. I'm interested in the kind of divergence between men and women, and I'm interested in exploring that. I am not in the business of giving advice because I don't have any successful relationships under my belt for me to tell people how to behave. Relationships. I don't know what I'm talking about, but I am just inquisitive and nosy and curious and I want to put out ideas and I want to hear what people have to say. And so I've been trying to remember, like, that is what I am. That is what I do. I will have more interesting ideas. I will spark more conversations. And they don't always have to be about relationships. Even though I have, like, written lots about relationships before in the past. But, you know, I'm kind of interested in a bunch of things. I'm trying to really give as much as I can in terms of, like, these are all the things I like. I am more than just this one idea or one concept.
- [19:32]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break.
- [19:39]
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- [19:42]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
No.
- [19:42]
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- [19:46]
LingoKids Ad Voice 2
Why?
- [19:47]
LingoKids Ad Voice 1
Because too many apps are filled with AI garbage, inappropriate videos and random content
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like a dancing potato or worse.
- [19:54]
LingoKids Ad Voice 1
That's what parents worry about. We're Lingokids and we're here to help parents out. Lingokids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids because kids love it and parents can trust it. They want something safe and fun. Yes, fun, but also something that actually
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teaches you big words like fomosynthesis. Fomosynthesis. Fomosynthesis.
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LingoKids Ad Voice 1
Yeah, close enough. And they want fun songs, videos and interactive games that help you grow, not
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turn you into a zombie that bites other zombies and then the zombies take over the world and then fly to space and live on the moon and fly in rocket ships on planets with loads of candy.
- [20:35]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yep,
- [20:37]
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everything kids love. Download the app for free.
- [20:39]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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- [22:04]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
you step into a new year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this your year. To invest in your growth while still showing up for everything and everyone in your life. Most of us carry so many roles. Partner, employee, caregiver. But there's another role that can open new doors when the time is right. Degree holder. That's where a national university comes in. They understand the reality of busy working professionals and address your needs by offering flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, and monthly class starts that work with your life, not against it. In fact, NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half earned by women. And right now, National University is offering the Year of youf Scholarship, providing up to $6,000 per year for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. If you've been waiting for a sign to make this the year of you, this is it. Learn more @nu.edu from visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts in their reluctant relocation to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. In the community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of unforgettable personalities who push their 50 year marriage to the limit. There's Butch's flirtatious ex flame Ethel, spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples, and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today.
- [24:03]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I love is having a boyfriend embarrassing? But I probably love your piece around low maintenance friendship and like I'm giving this up, I'm not being a low maintenance friend even more than the boyfriend piece and it feels like it's kind of in conversation with this piece right? In your earlier comments around is kind of singleness having a moment right now and it kind of feels like it is to me. But then I hear you say like oh, 19 and 20 year olds are writing you saying oh, I felt like something was wrong with me because I didn't have a boyfriend. What are your thoughts about like the moment that singleness is having or not right now? Like how do you think women are viewing that?
- [24:37]
Shantae Joseph
I think it's like we're going through a moment. Like we haven't fully got there yet, but there is like significant progress being made and I feel like that progress is going to be expedited because the way men and women are doing this, at some point we're going to have to start figuring out what does truly being content single look like. What are the other ways that I can imagine my life that don't center around I'm going to have a partner one day and this is my happily ever after and not In a way that is like depressing or it means your life lacks or there's nothing else going on. It's just like there has to be new ideas, there has to be new scripts because things are not looking great as they are. And as long as women are still completely wrapped up and hung up in trying to partner with a man, I just think there will just be a lot of disappointment. So what next? And I think we're in our what next period where we're figuring out how we build these new lives, these new stories, these new ideals. But I do think, I think being online and seeing the way that even just like single women content is becoming so much more common and loads of people are talking about their experiences very candidly, like that shame is disappearing. And because we talk about our negative experiences with men so much more candidly, and I definitely credit a lot of that to Gen Z. They know how to discuss what it was like to date someone or the Ls that they had to hold in their dating lives without the carrying the collective shame. And what that has done is it has more women in conversation about the things that they've experienced. Because before it would be like, oh, this man treated me this way. I haven't heard anyone else being treated like this. So surely this must be about me as an individual. There is something about me that made this person treat me this way. But what we're realizing is that, oh no, he treated all of these people this way. And all these people receive this treatment. And it's not about me being uniquely bad. This is just what men have been allowed to do and how they've been allowed to behave in the dating space. And so because of that, I think people are taking things less personally. They're disinvesting slowly and slowly from these relationships and they're thinking about how expansive their life can be. And I think at first that's that feels quite difficult because we've been told this is what it means to live a good life. This is what it means to be happy. This is what it means to be fulfilled. This is what it means to graduate into adulthood. And so when you don't have those markers, you're like, what do I do now? I'm really scared. But then on the other side of that is like, oh, I can do anything. Like, the world is my oyster. I can imagine any sort of future for myself when I no longer have these parameters telling me I need to exist in this way to be happy. And so I think we are on the precipice of something great. But I think there's also a collective grief that needs to happen. Mourning the lives that we thought that we would all live, Mourning this idea of, like, the couple being the center of our world, of our society. Like, so much is changing. And I think, yeah, there's a. There's a collective grief before. There is, like, a radical acceptance.
- [27:42]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
What do you think the stakes are for black women in this conversation?
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
Because the article was kind of globally relative to lots of people. But I do think that there is a particular conversation and maybe response that black women had to the piece.
- [27:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Can you share that?
- [27:56]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, I think it was most of my platforms anyway. Like, most of my followers are black women. So I always feel like I'm confident constantly in conversation with them, writing for them, to them. And I think their response from black women across the board, it was definitely varied. I think people who are more religious, people who grew up in the church, people who have very, I guess, traditional ideas around partnership, I think they found it in some ways more difficult to accept. Like, I just wrote this piece for Glamour. It's not even out yet, but it's about some of the responses I got to my piece. And like, a lot of black men, those who are, particularly in the church, would call me, like, a witch or, you know, this is not of God. You're doing the devil's work. You know, there was that sort of thing of, like, insinuating that because I had the audacity to question how accepting we are of heterosexual relationships and not actually questioning whether those dynamics are always really healthy. Like, I was doing the devil's work. So. Sure. So I think for some women, it was like it was confronting in that way. But for a lot of black women, like, they had already been on this. Right. I always think of Charlie's Toolbox and her bringing up this idea of decentering men, and that was like, a truly, truly, truly, like, transformative piece of information for me. I remember coming across her maybe in, like, 2020 or something like that, and it completely changed my life. So people like her have always been ahead of the curve in terms of, like, being quite inquisitive and questioning everything we know to be a heterosexual romantic relationship. And so I think I credit a lot of black women for me having the. I guess, even the bravery or the curiosity to ask the questions I had to ask. And so in some respects, it was like, people would be like, yep, 100% with you on this all the way. Absolutely love this. And then others would be like, this is Satanic. And so it was kind of like that sort of balance. And then there were also, I think, a lot of black women who had, like, never been in relationships before and had this sort of like this. This feeling of, I can read this piece and I can understand it, and I can hear all about these women's experiences and I can understand why they feel this way. But I still haven't fully been able to accept this as an idea because I actually yearn for companionship in that way. And obviously I was never really arguing or trying to argue with people, but I was always really curious about what, like, how they felt and how this piece made them feel and their thoughts on what relationships could look like for them in a different world. So, yeah, there was a lot of conversations that I had. Yeah.
- [30:31]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And it feels like that really speaks to the. The morning piece that you talked about.
- [30:35]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
- [30:36]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Like, you know, we can make space for both of these things to be true. Like, there can be a yearning for companionship, and if you find healthy companionship, I don't think anybody's arguing against that. But can there also be space for all of these people who may want companionship and for whatever reason, it doesn't happen?
- [30:50]
Rhode Island Tourism Ad Voice
Right.
- [30:51]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And how can you still go on to have a very full and happy life?
- [30:54]
Shantae Joseph
Right.
- [30:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Like, both of those things can be true.
- [30:57]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think it's difficult. I think people struggle to. The thing with, like. Like, straight relationships is that there has to be some sort of superiority to the form of the couple that makes single life feel quite unbearable. Like, we view couples as morally superior. They are doing life the right way. There's a book called Minimizing Marriage. And she was like, you know, there are over 1,000 sort of like, laws or regulations that are specifically benefits for married people. And it's just like, this is the world that we live in, right. So we see coupledom as a aspirational state, and it can only be aspirational if being single is not. And so I think it's so hard for people to hold those truths at the same time, because one has to be elevated above the other in order for it to be desirable. If there was, like, relationship neutrality, I don't know if as many people would actually even couple up.
- [31:53]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So, you know, one of the main arguments that the piece was really making was around kind of like posting partners, Right. So a lot of this kind of came in the back end of the article. But like, your main comment and one of your central thesis, it feels like, was, why aren't People posting. Right. Like, it feels like there's a very intentional act to like not post your partners. But the other side of that is that we have seen, seen, you know, people who get into relationships and then like they get brand deals or like all of these, like there's a real monetization of coupling that also happens. Can you talk about like that piece? Like how, you know, like just the idea of content creation has also maybe reinforced these ideas of partnership being ideal?
- [32:34]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, I mean, people are seeing Love island winners and stuff like that. There's definitely a whole industry around the couple and people definitely buy into it because they think it's aspirational. But also I think the fallout from those relationships are always incredibly messy. And in some ways I feel like a lot of people are sat on the edge of their seats, like just thinking, oh, when is this gonna go wrong? Like, I think of Kirsty Desmond and Scott Desmond. They're like, yeah, they were social media couple and they used to dance around and stuff and you know, they suddenly broke up and he had like cheated on her and then he was in the club the next day and it was on tmz. And there is definitely something around also just the downfall of these relationships that people are just obsessed with too. But I think, yeah, there is a lot around. It's still aspirational to be in a relationship. So people are able to make a lot of money kind of creating content from being with their partners. But I also think after a while does start to feel like super contrived, especially as people are starting to feel a little bit more like, you know, being IRL with people and like not having all of your ideals shaped by what you view on social media and like not feeling as if what you see online has to be a reflection of your own life. I do feel like things are changing a lot. And also just the rise in a single women content creators, even just like single women focused community groups and spaces. There is just a lot that is happening in that world that is growing, I would say like equally as big as that sort of content too. And even just the amount of community groups that have popped up, like people are desperate to be in bigger communities with others. Like I think the focus on the couple feels that it has less and less of a grip on people as they actually seek to be a meaningful part of communities where they have roles and responsibilities and they need to show up for people. But yeah, for now, like if you are in a couple and you are online, like you could probably make some money from it. But you are also going to be the subject of, like, prying eyes and opinions all the time.
- [34:41]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
When I think about, like, okay, posting partners online, that is what I see a lot, is that people then feel entitled to, like, commentary and, like, make suggestions and like, oh, why are they doing these kinds of things anymore? But one of the women that you interviewed in the piece also talked about, like, having to get rid of 12 years of content after a breakup.
- [35:01]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right?
- [35:02]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Like, how much do you think, like, the idea of a potential breakup also informs how people maybe share their partners online?
- [35:10]
Shantae Joseph
Oh, 100%. One thing that so many women said to me was, like, if this man cheats on me and embarrasses me, I'm going to have to do this purge of my social media platforms, and that is going to be humiliating. And it's just this idea of, you've met this person, you're in a relationship with this person, but in the back of your mind you are anticipating this future embarrassment where you're going to have to go and purge all of your social media because you can't be seen to be with them anymore. It's almost like women just expect it as part of the deal of dating men, and it's just so bad that they don't even see the point in posting them in the first place. Like, why would I ever do that when I just feel like something is going to happen or something could happen and I don't want to put myself in a position where I have to walk back this sort of declaration of love. Like, so many people are always like, you know, loving a man feels like a humiliation ritual because you just feel like you are just waiting, like, when is the other shoe gonna drop? Like, when is it gonna go bad? And you are protecting yourself against that. And that protection also looks like making sure they're nowhere to be seen on your social media. Even if you love them so much, you just know that it doesn't matter how much I love you, you have the capacity to truly be evil. And I can do nothing but just prepare for that. Essentially.
- [36:30]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know so much that this wasn't directly addressed in your piece, But I feel like the conversations around, like, being romantic, couples, being ideal, and all of that come from romcoms, right? Like, so many of us are socialized to think about this in, like, so many movies, so many pieces. Is there any particular rom com that you feel like, really informed your ideas about partnership? Or maybe a book or a piece of media that has kind of shaped
- [36:54]
Shantae Joseph
these ideas for you that Is such a good question. I can't lie. I am not a rom com person at all. I do not like rom coms. I don't like any sort of romantic and things that the only time I will watch them, if it has gripped the zeitgeist and we're all talking about it and it's like something that you have to watch because you need to be part of the conversation. I watch it, but never out of just enjoyment. Maybe I'm just dead inside, but I really struggle. I'm like, this is not real, Jamie. I'll watch Interstellar and I'll be like, yeah, String theory. Going through the universe to go back in time to get his daughter. And she's old. I love that.
- [37:37]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Believable.
- [37:38]
Shantae Joseph
I'm locked in a rom com. I'm like, what the hell is this? This is not real. Obviously, I guess, like Bridget Jones and stuff like that. I've always found, like, really funny and sort of, like, relatable and interesting. Obviously. Sex in the sea. Like, I love sex in the sea. Down, like, definitely feel like that has probably shaped maybe just, I guess, pessimism in some sense around relationships and just like, yeah, kind of how I think about them more generally. There was a film called Serendipity that I watched that I really, really loved. I think those are the ones. I was like, oh, this is quite good. But outside of that, I'm just like, I cannot. I'm like, skip. Next. Don't want to do it. Like, don't engage with me at all.
- [38:22]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I wonder how you balance for yourself. I mean, because even in the piece, you talk about, you know, also your own yearning for companionship, right? Like, that is something that you've written about, but also balancing with, like, I'm dead inside. And I also don't love this. How do you strike that balance in your everyday life?
- [38:40]
Shantae Joseph
I am in therapy, everyone. I'm in therapy every single week. Literally, I got. Every single week. But I definitely feel like part of it for me is, like, trying to be, I think, maybe more optimistic.
- [38:57]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I think.
- [38:58]
Shantae Joseph
I think I've just read too much and I've heard too much that I'm a bit like, you know, I wrote this piece for Conde Nash, Traveler that came on Valentine's Day, and they were like, oh, we want you to write about, like, love and travel and, you know, like, any experiences you had abroad. And I spoke about, like, being in Brazil and meeting this American guy, and he was, like, so lovely. And we went on a date and we got along so well and I was like, oh my God. I actually really like this guy. So I unfollowed him from everything and I ghosted him for like, more because I just cannot. I just can't deal with any of those emotions. But, you know, I, I did then reach out to him and he was like, that was so crazy that you ghosted me. And I was like, I know. And then we, like, we went. He flew me out to Tromso and we went to the Season of Lines together. And it was so lovely. But I think that because there was like 6, 000 miles between us, I was like, this is doable, but I'm trying to learn how to engage with that part of myself and be better. And that's like what I'm doing in therapy. And I'm trying to be like, believe in love. Like, I'm. I'm trying to light that spark in me for sure. And I think being in therapy helps me to like, balance that. It's just so hard. I just read so much and I'm like, this is crazy. Like, loving a man is crazy work. What the hell? But I think people keep doing it for some reason, so there must be some merit to it. And I think, yeah, I think it just working on what makes me feel really weird about this stuff and learning how to like be better about it I think is helping me somewhat. But it is a journey. Like, God bless my therapist. Like, I am so irritating. But she endures. She endures every time.
- [40:37]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
I'm sure she enjoys working with you through these things. Right? That's kind of the thing we signed up for.
- [40:44]
Shantae Joseph
Oh, I love her.
- [40:45]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So it sounds like there have been a couple of maybe spinoff pieces, been kind of follow ups to the original piece. But if you were to like write this article for the first time now in 2026, how do you think it would be different?
- [40:58]
Shantae Joseph
Oh, I would be worse. Sorry, I was way too polite in that piece. I was trying to respect the sensibilities of people. Sensibilities of people. And trying to be quite down the middle and. Nah, because I tried to do that and new lots still ripped me a new one. So do you know what? If I had to write this piece again, oh, I would be worse. Oh, you guys thought that piece was bad. I'm going to show you what's bad for real. Because it was just like, this is the most mild, tame piece ever. Like, and the literature that I was reading around this piece, I read Jane Ward, the Tragedy of Heterosexuality. Banging book, so fierce and she's A queer woman, and she kind of talks about, oh, I'm on the outside of straightness. This is what it looks like to me. You guys are insane. And I was thinking, imagine If I wrote 1% of that energy in this article. You would have burned me at the stake. I mean, you already called me a witch, so we were nearly there. But it was just like, I feel like I could have been punchier. For sure. For sure. The piece would have been longer. You know, when you write Viewpoints for vogue, it's only 850 words. It's not even long. I would have made it so much longer. I would have had a lot more interviews. I probably would have also spoken to therapists as well. Obviously, I just collected the views of women and I did a lot of reading around theory. But I would have definitely loved to got the voice of a therapist in that piece to just to get their perspectives on how social media has changed the way that we do relationships. And so, yeah, I think it would have been longer. It would have been like a longer feature for sure.
- [42:36]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
One of the pieces that I really appreciated you introducing in that article was the Boyfriend Land piece from the Tell the Beast substack on the sociologist. For people who may not be familiar with that theory around boyfriend land, can you say a little bit more about that?
- [42:50]
Shantae Joseph
It's just a kind of about women online creating a lot of content or creating their entire online Personas being about their boyfriend. And it's like boyfriend land is just this world in which people are like, my boyfriend, my boyfriend, my boyfriend, my mom, my mom, my man. And it's like that's the. You're just scrolling and you're just hearing it all the time, and it is just completely irritating. And then on top of it, it's like, men are not doing like, my girlfriend, my girlfriend, my girlfriend content in the same way. Like, there isn't as much, I guess, like clout or desire or want to brand your relationship with your girlfriend or the fact that you are a boyfriend with the same vigor, like, there's no demand for it. And so it's kind of about looking into why that is and what does it mean and how are we kind of even in this age of being incredibly online and having access and being able to see so much, like we still fall prey to the same kind of tired tropes of the wife of the girlfriend. And it kind of just, yeah, consumes online identity and it makes content really bland and staged and boring and dull. And sometimes people. It's not even just boyfriend. Sometimes it's like my dad, my brother, like just the my some man in my life, you know, is always a theme on women's social media platforms on as part of women's social media identities. And it's just so so consuming.
- [44:17]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break.
- [44:25]
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
No.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
step into a new year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this your year. To invest in your growth while still showing up for everything and everyone in your life. Most of us carry so many roles. Partner, employee, caregiver. But there's another role that can open new doors when the time is right. Degree holder. That's where a national university comes in. They understand the reality of busy working professionals and address your needs by offering flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, and monthly class starts that work with your life, not against it. In fact, NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half earned by women. And right now, National University is offering the Year of youf Scholarship, providing up to $6,000 per year for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. If you've been waiting for a sign to make this the year of you, this is it. Learn more @nu.edu from visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts in their reluctant relocation to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. In the community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of unforgettable personalities who push their 50 year marriage to the limit. There's Butch's flirtatious ex flame Ethel, spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples, and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today.
- [48:18]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So you've already given us a couple, but I would love to hear more about like, some of the writers and thinkers that you are reading and consuming that also feel like they're in conversation with your work and have really helped you to kind of shape your perspectives.
- [48:30]
Shantae Joseph
Oh, okay. So I've been reading a lot of Eva Lou. So she did the End of Love and why Love Hurts. And there was another book Consuming the Romantic, Consuming the Romantic Fantasy. I think it was another book she wrote that I was reading Mona Chalet in Defense of Witches. But yeah, Jane Ward's Tragedy of Heterosexuality, another brilliant book that I think really did give me the oomph to write this piece. Like, it wasn't until I read her book that I was like, oh, this has opened up a world for me. And then, you know, then I read Compulsory Heterosexuality by Adrienne Rich and I was like, just my mind opened up and I was like, I'm just completely obsessed with all of these writers and what they have to say. Because I'd never really thought about straight relationships in a particularly critical way. I was just always like, this is something that we just have to do. And I never felt like I should question, like why is this the norm? Why do we feel like that. In what ways are our societies built to sustain and support these types of relationships above all others? Interview conversations. Oh, letter. Hong Fincher. She wrote Leftover Women about, like, the women in China who, after they're like, 25, if they're not married or they don't have kids, the government brands them as leftover women and basically just ran an entire media campaign to scold them into getting married, which was just really, really wild. And then Sarah Lahad, a lot of her studies around singleness. A table for one brilliant book. Yeah, I've just been, like, deep in that world, like, really understanding what does it mean to be a woman in a relationship, aspiring to be in a relationship, not in a relationship. Like, how did these things change how you're viewed and your identity? Sorry, I'm just, like, going on.
- [50:17]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
No, I'm like, oh, this is a long reading list.
- [50:23]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, yeah. Gosh, I'm obsessed. Because we just don't. I just think. Well, not to go on a tangent, but sometimes I think about singleness as an identity being seen as this sort of, like, deficit state, this sort of, like, aberration. We don't know where to put you. We don't know what to do with you. You're not fulfilling your purpose. You're not fulfilling the role that is prescribed to you from the day that you're born. And it kind of can just throw you into this spiral. And I'm always online, I'm always on TikTok, and I've always seen these videos of, like, women, like, late 20s, early 30s, in floods of tears, crying. I have never had a boyfriend before. I've never had a partner. I want to have kids. I want this thing. And it's not happening for me. I've done all the work. I go to therapy, I go to the gym. I have a good job. I take care of my family. I volunteer. I did it. And they're listing off all the things they're doing, and they're like, I still can't find anyone. And, like, the pain that they feel is, like, this visceral, deep pain, this loneliness, this feeling of I'm not good enough. And I used to see this stuff. And you would always see in the comments, people would be like, you just need to love yourself. Like, you just need to, like, say affirmations every day. And I'm like, I think it's deeper than that. I think on a societal level, how we render single women is doing something to our psyche that is making us that sad. I don't think it's just because you have low self esteem or you don't love yourself or you don't do this. Like there are other forces at play that create a world that feels unbearable for some single women that just leads to these emotional outbursts. And so I just, yeah, I'm just so obsessed with understanding that better. And part of that is being able to get women to just demystify the heterosexual romantic fantasy and just feel like so much of what you feel like you're lacking is stuff in your imagination. Like it's not even necessarily real. But also it's about understanding the forces that make you feel the way you do. And part of that is just the way we have prioritized coupledom in society. And like, not that I'm like, oh, we should hate relationships, but I just think we need to be more realistic about them. The idealized view we have of relationships is designed to make us feel bad if we're single. So how about we start to change the narrative a little bit? And you know, these writers have been so instrumental in me understanding that. And then there was when I spoke about the cultural lag, there's like a piece of study called like Caught in the Cultural Lag. And it was about a study for therapists, basically trying to get therapists to talk to their older single female clients in ways that wouldn't like trigger them even more. And they kind of studied all of these single women and how they felt about their identities and the things that came up, the rhetorics that they would turn to in order to self soothe, but in order to explain away their singleness. And it was basically about like, okay, so how do you talk to people in this way? And that was like a really, really helpful piece for me as well. But yeah, I think there is some sort of. I don't think it's going to fix all your problems, but there is definitely a healing and really understanding singleness as an identity and how it's constructed that I think will give people a lot of, I guess, peace around their situations because, you know, it's not you. Like you're not this fundamentally unlovable and broken person. But like the world just makes you feel like that sometimes.
- [53:49]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you naming that because I do think there are so many forces that kind of come together. Like the church like you talked about, right. Like our framing and our socializing around like coupledom being like the, the peak, like it is the thing that we are working toward. And when you think about any other thing in your Life, like, there are steps to, to follow. And if you do these things, you are relatively assured success, right? Going to school, buying a house, well, that's precarious. But there are steps to follow for most things. And I think partnership, I think we don't give enough credit for how much of it is just luck and like, being in the right place at the right time. And like personalities, like, and so there's this sense of like, I can't work hard enough that makes not finding a partner or not having a partnership feel like a personal failure as opposed to all these other things that need to line up for that to actually happen in a healthy way.
- [54:44]
Shantae Joseph
It's crazy. And even other aspects of your life, right? I know in the us, like, it's a bit crazy, but like, you would have, like, programs that would help people from, like, you know, underrepresented backgrounds get into specific places. Like, even in these things that you can work towards, if you are a specific kind of person or you're in a specific kind of situation, there are things set up to aid you in that. That doesn't exist when it comes to, like, finding love. It is like a free for all and it's just the wild, wild west.
- [55:14]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So I think the other thing that is likely going to be the aftermath of this piece is that other people will want to write and say, like, oh, I'm also interested in kind of cultural criticism and kind of thinking through things for people who are maybe aspiring writers. What kinds of things or what advice would you have for them?
- [55:31]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And what kinds of things do you
- [55:32]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
feel like they should be noticing to do this? Well, do you know what?
- [55:37]
Shantae Joseph
Read, read, read, read, read, take in, take in, take in. But I think most importantly, have conversations with people you know well, people you don't know well, get opinions. What are people thinking about? What are they talking about? What's interesting them? I think it's so easy to kind of see a trend popping off a line and then be like, oh, I want to write about this trend. But it's like, what extra layer can you add to it? What can you use to help strengthen your argument, your reasoning, your theory? Like, I love, like reading academics. Whenever I have an idea about something, I'm like, on Google Scholar, what has been researched? What have people said? What interesting studies are they exploring? Like, how can this help to, you know, dispel or to prove this thing I'm seeing? And then who else can I talk to who's had real life experience, who would share their story with me? I think A lot of it is like having loads and loads and loads of conversations and not being so sort of insular. And when you feel like you have a really good idea of something, then just putting it out there. Whether you are on substack or whether you're on medium or if you're just like pitching to different platforms or even newsletters, like, find different ways for you to get your words out there. But like, I think be super curious in the world around you, which I know can be very hard. You know, we will work from home now and people can be quite siloed up and isolated, but as much as you can just get in front of people, what are they talking about? What do they care about? What are they noticing? Do you notice it too? Do you have an opinion on that? I think that is the best way to kind of come up with some fun, interesting, compelling ideas to share.
- [57:09]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And so I also would love to hear more about the book. So we mentioned that you have a book coming out later this year. Tell us about the book and what can we expect?
- [57:16]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, so the book is called Picky. It's coming out in September, and it's basically kind of a lot of what we've discussed today, this idea of single women being like, penalized so much for their singleness and being made to, to be the scapegoat for a lot of like, social ills. And how this is something that happens repeatedly. And if you're a single woman, it's like, you know, you're too picky, you have unrealistic expectations, you need to work on yourself. You're not looking hard enough, you're looking too much, you're too desperate, you don't want it enough. Like, there are so many ways that we kind of like start to pathologize just how single women are. And Pinky kind of seeks to explain where all of that comes from, explain the mechanisms through which women are demonized for their singleness, and tries to provide a way out of that conditioning. But it also acknowledges that these are huge forces that are baked into our legislature, is baked into our legal system, baked in policy, into politics. Politics. You know, there's so much. And what we're experiencing now is not particularly unique. Every single week we're seeing these stories about the birth rate is falling, fertility rate is falling, you know, replacement rate, and it always falls at the foot of women. And, you know, recently in France, they're sending a letter out to all 29 year olds to remind them to have children before it's too late. And they were like, you know, we're sending this to men and women, so it's not a big deal. But the only reason why they choose 29 is because between from 29 to 30, I think the government will pay for women to have like any sort of fertility treatment that they want to have. And so they're like trying to get into them early. And that whole idea of it being too late is something that we only ever apply to women. And so we're kind of seeing the way that this sort of like collective panic of like lonely single men is becoming like women's fault. And because of that, I think the sort of cultural pressure for women to couple up is getting worse and worse and worse. And so the despair of being single is also getting worse and worse and worse. And so it seeks to explain all of that, just to provide some sort of levity, I think, to single women particularly. But yeah, it's been like, mind blowing. I obviously I love reading. I love having ideas and thoughts and opinions and feelings and I'm just learning so much. I'm looking across cultures, I'm looking across time and I'm like, oh, there are things that are repeating here and there are waves and there are cultural experiences that we're all having. And none of this stuff is new. And so it's just been like so much fun to write.
- [59:49]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
If there was one piece of advice that you could give to your 18
- [59:52]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
year old self, what would it be?
- [59:55]
LingoKids Ad Voice 2
Oh my God.
- [59:56]
Shantae Joseph
Oh my God. 18 year old Shantay. I would say to her that doing less is more and she doesn't have to prove herself to anyone. Like, she is incredible as she is. So focus on what it is she likes doing and do that. And it doesn't matter if other people find it impressive, it doesn't matter if other people find it interesting. What matters is that it makes you feel good about yourself. So cut out all the noise.
- [60:27]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I love that.
- [60:28]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
And where can we stay connected with you, Shantae. I know people will want to read the book when it comes out and read more of your writing. What is your website in any social media channels you'd like to share?
- [60:37]
Shantae Joseph
So, yeah, I'm just across all social media. Shantay J and I run an event series in London if any of your listeners are ever here, called Strangers in the City. And it is an event series where everyone comes solo and you basically participate in some sort of activity. So we've done, you know, jiu jitsu, improv, we've done like samba, ring making. We've done quizzes, we've done candle making. We do all sorts of stuff all around London. Everyone comes alone. You can only buy one ticket and redesign the space so you can make friends. So you can come and find me at Strange and the City event. I'm always there, always hosting, running it with my best friend Zainab. Or you can just like follow me Ante J across all social media platforms.
- [61:21]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Well, that sounds like a very cool idea. We'll be sure to include all of that in the Show Notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
- [61:27]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I appreciate it.
- [61:29]
Shantae Joseph
Thanks for having me.
- [61:34]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So glad Shante was able to join us for today's conversation to learn more about her and her work. Be sure to visit the Show Notes at therapy for black girls.com session452 and don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. We can't wait to see you there. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyre Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Support for today's podcast comes from Chamberlain University. There's a difference between not knowing what's next and knowing exactly what you want, but being afraid to go after it. If you're in the second group, maybe it's time to stop waiting. Chamberlain University has been preparing healthcare professionals for over 135 years. It's the largest nursing school in the country with flexible programs and real support to help students take that next step. Start today @chamberlain.edu. chamberlain University belongs to Something greater Certified to operate by Shiv these days, most things cost an arm and a leg, especially vacations.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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- [63:52]
Shantae Joseph
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