← Therapy for Black Girls
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- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining me for session 455 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word from our sponsors. Today's sponsor is Chamberlain University. You've seen them. Nurses who just own every moment, who bring calm to chaos and hope to the hopeless, who make you think, that's exactly the kind of nurse I want to be. That's not by accident, that's by preparation. As the number one largest nursing school in the U.S. chamberlain University has been preparing nurses who don't just meet the moment, they own it. Start your journey at chamberlain. Edu Chamberlain University Belong to something Greater Certified to operate by shiv Ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making and these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls, Inc. Is the leading expert on girls and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones, and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not.
- [02:11]
Sponsor Announcer
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- [02:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You know that moment when your kid asks for your phone and you're already bracing yourself for whatever random video they'll disappear into? Have you heard of Lingokids it's an app where kids are actually playing, singing, tapping and exploring stories. It's colorful, high energy, and designed so kids stay curious instead of just zoning out. They think they're getting a treat and it was built just for them. Lingokids Everything kids love. Download the Lingokids app now on your phone or tablet. It's free.
- [03:22]
Bethenny Frankel
Bethany Frankel here from Just be with Bethenny Frankel and I am just going to say it. The drinks aisle needs an intervention. Bottles, cans, all promising health and wellness. But after a glug you just shrug. Then there's Synergy Kombucha Real Kombucha Synergy supports mind and body through your gut with 9 billion probiotics. Yep, 9 billion probiotics. Can you even count that high in flavors you will love? No hype, just quality, taste and real benefits. That's Kombucha made the right way. Don't chase fads. Choose standards DM at Synergy Kombucha on Instagram with the code Thereal Kombucha to get a free bottle while supplies last. Synergy the Kombucha with Standards.
- [04:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Lately it feels like a lot of people are being asked to do more and more at work. Teams are stretched thin, responsibilities keep expanding, and many of us are finding ourselves carrying workloads that don't always match the support, resources or recognition we deserve. For Black women in particular, these dynamics can show up in some very specific ways. One of them is the glass Cliff. Think of it as when women, and especially women of color, are elevated to leadership roles during moments of crisis or instability, often when the stakes are the highest and and the margin for error is very small. Because this conversation continues to feel relevant, maybe even more relevant than when we first aired it, we're throwing it back to an earlier episode that explores what it means to navigate these dynamics while protecting your well being and leadership capacity. In this conversation, I'm joined by leadership advisor and keynote speaker Dr. Yasmeen Mumby. Dr. Mumby is the founder of the Ringgold, a firm that has helped some of the most impactful organizations in the world achieve their mission critical organizational ambitions. Her work focuses on helping leaders build sustainable organizations and create environments where people can thrive without burning out. Together, we talk about what the glass cliff is, why Black women so often find themselves navigating it, and what it looks like to advocate for yourself while leading in high pressure environments. We also discuss workplace realities many of us recognize from navigating microaggressions and documenting your work to setting boundaries around your Capacity and communicating strategically with colleagues. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tbgincession or come talk it through with us on Patreon. Our community is a place where black women gather to unpack episodes like this one, share workplace experiences and support one another in navigating it all. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com. here's our conversation.
- [06:12]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Mumby.
- [06:15]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this conversation and to be in connection with you.
- [06:20]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Absolutely, absolutely. So you are a sustainable leadership advisor. Can you tell us what that means and what your typical workday looks like?
- [06:29]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders. Most of them identify as women, black women from burning Out. I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines, even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity so you're not burning out. Started doing this in work life. A lot of my professional career has been around balancing a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors and that led itself to me also focusing on my personal life and how I can also work to have equilibrium or at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out on the other. And that's become even more important now that I have a little baby who's now 10 months.
- [07:14]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Oh wow. I can imagine nothing like a little one to kick you into having to reimagine some things.
- [07:21]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
I'm in another gear. In another gear.
- [07:25]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So much of your work is really focused on creating easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean to be an easeful leader?
- [07:33]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
It's a leader who is operating from the core of their values and that somebody else is. It's a leader who takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision. How is this going to impact my team, their well being, their productivity and the culture that we have on staff? A lot of folks in a lot of organizations get caught up in production, production, production. And that's because sometimes we have external validators who are putting a lot of pressure on us to perform, to be visible. And it's our role as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to support the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just the technical to say, hey, I understand what my team is going through. This is what's going on in the context of the world if you aren't considering that in your push for us to be more, whatever, productive, more visible, more everything with less resources happens a
- [08:38]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
lot of the time.
- [08:39]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
If we continue down this path at this pace, this is what the impact will be, not just on our team morale and our team structure, but also for the quality of our work.
- [08:49]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So it sounds like you have worked across a variety of sectors, it sounds like with lots of different leaders. Can you talk a little bit about some of the common challenges that have
- [08:57]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
come up in your work with leaders?
- [08:58]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Absolutely. I was just leading full day staff retreat on the west coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally. And what I'm noticing in working with them, we're all dealing with this capacity issue. Like do we have capacity to take on all these transformative goals and this expansive vision that we have for our work right now? And does it have to be right now? Because right now we're considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner than many of us on the team already feel. So that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my portfolio currently. And that's going to be the subject of my next monthly newsletter around capacity.
- [09:40]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So is it that people are kind of seeing so much need that they're trying to like take on additional tasks and like have the organization perform? Is that a part of it?
- [09:50]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Sometimes. And sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the organization where they feel like they have to perform at this pace to visibly look like they're being productive. And that's a difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level. Noticing what has been their contribution to this reality, noticing the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports and then having the conversation with the board and or funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas. And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes reflects the micro. So what's going on individually with each leader where they feel like they have to contribute to this pace. And that's where my individual coaching really, really kicks in and where we see some changes. Because leadership is an extension of who you are in yourself and the way it's landing on others. And if we don't really unearth what's going on there through your leadership actions, you just gonna be having a lot of people being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing your own practices of self compassion and support.
- [10:58]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So I'm wondering, Dr. Mumbi, how do
- [11:00]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
companies understand whether they're following their values or whether they're trying to like hitch to some arbitrary kind of sense of Value.
- [11:08]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Oh, that shows up in the numbers. People are dropping, they're leaving. This shows up in their retention. It shows up in their staff lack of engagement shows up in not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So Glassdoor, it shows up when something has happened in the organization and it's highly visible and delicate and folks need someone to come in and support them. And that's how I typically get connected to people, because it's through word of mouth. They're like, Yasmeen and her team can come in here and help us objectively figure out the best path forward and also to support people through this transition and change management. I gotta say, a lot of that effort and work comes from my comfort being in the middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts. And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing. And it also helps that I was a teacher and a community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm used to finding solutions.
- [12:18]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
You got a lot of experience in a lot of different ways to do this work. It sounds.
- [12:23]
Bethenny Frankel
We all do.
- [12:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
We all do. Yeah. So you mentioned that a majority of the clients that you work with are often black women. And we know that Black women are often expected to have these really high expectations. But also the pay and the promotion rates don't necessarily kind of match up with that. So can you tell me a little bit about what kinds of questions Black women should be asking themselves and their supervisors if they feel like their level of work isn't necessarily matching either their
- [12:49]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
pay grade or their title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support them to be successful? Yes, we can talk about that. We can talk about that. So some of the questions, it depends on where you are in the process. So if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're in the thick of the role and you're seeing that your work is outpacing what was initially written down about what the role would be, these questions can be helpful. And if you are considering whether or not you want to stay in the role, given that your work has outgrown what initially was supposed to be within the scope of work, these questions could be helpful. One, I would have the conversation with the decision maker, because having the conversation with folks who don't have decision making power can distract from the purpose of why you need to have such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I first narrow in, is this the decision maker? And, and if this person isn't, then I need to find out who is so I don't waste my time. One of the questions I have folks consider is what's the scope of work initially laid out for this role? Or what has been the scope of work? What are you doing now within the scope of work? How have you exceeded the limits of what the scope of work was supposed to protect? And then what is the difference between the two? And how has that impacted not just your workload, but the time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality. Most often you've been able to keep up high quality work, even being limited and stretched. And how has it impacted the work assigned to other colleagues? Because if you're taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't have such a pace of work expected of them nor quality, then chances are you might be taking on some of their work that they should have been doing or could be doing and just aren't aware that now it's grown within their scope of work instead of yours. So those are the first foundational because we got to get really clear with the evidence. What do we see? And then I want to know what's going on socially, collegially amongst your colleagues? How are you being treated? Are people asking you, pinging you? Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft Teams. Are they pinging you big 11 times. Hey, have you done this? Hey, how's this going? Hey, can you give me update on this? Chances are folks have already internalized that you are at this leadership role, taking on more of this work and are treating you such and have the expectations of you. But yet that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated formally into your scope of work for your job description and it hasn't translated formally into the resources, money you need to bring on the team or to support the team that you're supposed to have or do have to do more. And so that's the beginning, just the beginning. That's the analysis. Second part of the process we go through, okay, what's the strategy? Who do we talk to? What's the messaging for each person? What do they care about most that will get them to understand what you're going through? How do we build empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly, we go into actually role playing and mapping it out. What are we doing? And then fourth, we go back to evaluation. What has happened? What are the results? That's kind of valuation. So this all occurs within an engagement of coaching around your leadership development. Because so often we're out here on our own trying to figure it out and also implementing in a way that can feel isolating. Even though other folks have gone through what you were going through, are going through it alongside you, and that sense of community helps embolden you to stand up for yourself.
- [16:33]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So would somebody kind of reach out for your support if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it sounds like you work with people who are mid level or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization and thinking like, okay, I feel like I'm ready to move to that next level, they could reach out to you for some support around how to make that ask.
- [16:54]
Bethenny Frankel
Oh yeah.
- [16:55]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
A lot of the folks that I work with now, I've been with them since their promotion because they have grown in their awareness of what they have capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside of what people expected them to do. And they have wonder, curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their work and that could connect to a different pay grade, a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry based approach that I have with folks, I never present answers for people. I ask a lot of questions and I listen and I understand more about what people care about and I ask questions around their values and their alignment of what they're doing their day to day. People come to their own clarity and once they come to that clarity, that might lead to a promotion. And then once they're in the new role, it's like, okay, how do I build this within my team?
- [17:47]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. You know that moment when your kid asks for your phone and you're already bracing yourself for whatever random video they'll disappear into? Have you heard of Lingokids? It's an app where kids are actually playing, singing, tapping and exploring stories. It's colorful, high energy, and designed so kids stay curious instead of just zoning out. They think they're getting a treat and it was built just for them. Lingokids Everything kids Love Download the LingoKids app now on your phone or tablet. It's free. Ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making. And these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls Inc. Is the leading expert on girls, and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones, and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not. Visit girlsinc.org owning a home is full
- [18:57]
Sponsor Announcer
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- [19:25]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
repairs as you step into a new year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this the year of you. If earning a degree has been on your mind, National University has your back. They understand the realities of busy, working professionals like you in their flexible online formats. Four and eight week courses and monthly class starts help you fit school into your life, not the other way around. And Right now, National University's year of you scholarship offers up to $6,000 annually for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. Make this the year of you at NU. Learn more today at NU. Edu.
- [20:07]
Bethenny Frankel
Bethany Frankel here from Just be with Bethany Frankel and I am just going to say it. The drinks aisle needs an intervention. Too many bottles of cans, all promising health and wellness. But after a glug you just shrug and you still feel out of sync. Then there's Synergy Kombucha. The real kombucha. The real deal made the right way for real benefits and real results. You can see and feel. I love it. Synergy supports your mind and body through your gut with 9 billion living probiotics in refreshing flavors. You will live for Synergy makes Kombucha with a superior craft fermentation process that delivers delicious taste. And all those probiotics? They're the good bacteria that support your body, mind and even your skin. You're welcome, because when your microbiome is imbalance, you're back in sync and back in charge. That is what you get when your kombucha is made the right way. Don't chase fads. Don't fall for modern soda hype. Choose standards DM Synergy Kombucha on Instagram with the code Thereal Kombucha to Get a free bottle while supplies last. Synergy the kombucha with standards.
- [21:28]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So there's been lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online, around black women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that being read as antisocial. So can you say a little bit about like what suggestions you have for people who might be enjoying the conversation around, like how to kind of do this dance? That is sometimes required in co working spaces if you are not particularly fans of your co workers.
- [21:53]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment. As a team member, as a colleague, a lot of times we can be seen as the person who has to show up and be everything for everybody. And that often takes out our ability to be human, our humanity. And in looking at us devoid of such humanity, it's why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the way that I expect of you, absent of me, considering your personhood, that's the culture within your organization. And then if people are acting in that way and forwarding on that dehumanization, if you will, then you gotta wonder, okay, is this the place for me? And if you are going to stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and you're in a financial position where you can stay, I would take it down to the most fundamental level of communication and that is strictly technical. Like I would not go into any emotional, connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate that from you. And so we can get overextended emotionally for trying really, really hard to in some instances, appease folks, appeal to their sense of empathy and they might not have it for us. So the more we do that, the less it will be reciprocated. And then that can also lead to further, further burnout. So if you must stay, then I would keep the conversation to a technical, foundational level that is central to your subject matter expertise in your role.
- [23:34]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So you mentioned earlier, Dr. Mumby, that some people do the calculation and sometimes it's just not possible for you to leave a workplace.
- [23:41]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Even if you feel like your spirit
- [23:43]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
is not being filled and you know, you feel like it's hostile, maybe even in some ways. So if someone is forced to kind of stay in a sit because bills have to be paid, what kinds of things would you suggest for them to continue to take care of themselves even in that kind of environment?
- [23:57]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
First, let's do an analysis of where are the spaces in the organization where you feel you could be somewhat who you are without being penalized for who you are and where are the spaces where you just know there is little to no psychological safety. It would be a detriment for you to show up as you are because people would take advantage of it. So we need to understand the terrain that we're working with and in those spaces, who are the people and do the same analysis and then take that and understand who you can and frankly cannot be in a room with alone and document, document, document. So that's what you could do. Technically, you keep your scope of work very closely aligned to what you have been assigned to do. And you readily seek the decision maker within your team to pinpoint where in your scope of work you are operating outside of it, either because the work has been assigned to you, or you have literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more. And you can do it so that you all can have a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled. And when I say whether or not it needs to be reconciled, you can keep doing that extra work, but then we gotta make some adjustments on the pay or the promotion, or you can choose, hey, that's not the work we need to be doing. And they might say that's not the work they need you to be doing anymore. So then they take some things off of your plate. Because if you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're doing and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly have looked at your reality and you cannot make a transition at this moment, then we need to decrease the amount of stress and the input from many people into your work so that you can literally make it day to day. It can be emotionally taxing, it can be very exhausting, and it can be done with those particular instances. I move very strategically and tactfully because I know it is a delicate situation for that leader.
- [26:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So I wonder, Dr. Mummy, if you can set us straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces? Because I feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know, reminding people HR is there to protect the company. It's not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So can you say a little bit about if HR is a resource for us to go to, and if not, what are the spaces that we can kind of look lean on as resources if we're having difficulties in the workplace?
- [26:34]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
On paper, yeah, HR is supposed to be supportive, but like you said, we have been hearing and folks have been coming out around like their interest isn't in us, it's in the protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah. So what else can you do? So a lot of the folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches, it's through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy. It gives you a built in team to protect yourself when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you. And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there for you, then long term that can't stay as the reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces. We just have to find the bridge to them. And in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself along the way. In addition to, you know, attorneys, if it gets that far. I know some people has gotten that far.
- [27:35]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So some of the other terms that often come up when we're talking about black women in workspaces is confirmation bias and the glass Cliff. I know you talk a lot about this in your work.
- [27:44]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Can you define those terms for us?
- [27:47]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Confirmation bias, There's a bias towards, ah, as a leader, I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or analyze whether or not this decision is the best for our team and for the role and for the work. And so instead of looking at the full span of all the evidence and the terrain of the reality of what's going on across the sector, across the role, this leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up with where they want to go anyway in their decision making. Confirmation bias, biasing their confirmation Glass cliff. Oh, we need to do a longer conversation on this, but, and I'll just start here, a lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh, our leadership does not reflect the values that we say that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population of folks we're working with or our work is directly impacted by and we need to change that. And so sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central to the survival of the organization. And sometimes organizations go, ah, let's put the two together and let's have in some cases the black woman be the leader and lead us through this difficult, turbulent time and to make sure she has what she needs to do it, let's promote her and voila, we'll figure it out together. And so it's kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended in leadership, but yet you're literally on the cliff of success. And or failure. And while you're up there, it's glass because everybody's watching you. And so this reality of, wow, I've worked so hard to reach this point in my career, to have this level of trust across the organization, and now I'm questioning whether or not I'm set up for success and whether or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing, ready for me to either be successful or fail. Walking on a class cliff.
- [30:02]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So is this typically a conscious decision by leadership? Is it typically like, oh, let's find like a black woman to take the fall for this, or is it that it ends up being that way because Black women are kind of thought to be the ones who can save everything for everybody?
- [30:18]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't tell you that. I know in certain conversations, in certain moments of crisis, some leaders realize if we don't have a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative, it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And sometimes people will then look towards a group of people and see if there is someone within who is willing and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean that person isn't qualified for it. They probably been qualified and you just gave them a shot because you're struggling.
- [31:00]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. You know that moment when your kid asks for your phone and you're already bracing yourself for whatever random video they'll disappear into? Have you heard of Lingokids? It's an app where kids are actually playing, singing, tapping and exploring stories. It's colorful, high energy, and designed so kids stay curious instead of just zoning out. They think they're getting a treat and it was built just for them. Lingokids Everything kids love. Download the Lingokids app now on your phone or tablet. It's free. Ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making. And these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls Inc. Is the leading expert on girls, and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones, and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not.
- [32:06]
Bethenny Frankel
Visit girlsinc.org Bethany Frankel here from Just Be with Bethany Frankel, and I am just going to say it. The drinks aisle needs an intervention. Too many bottles and cans, all promising health and wellness. But after a glug, you just shrug and you still feel out of sync. Then There's Synergy Kombucha the real Kombucha. The real deal made the right way for real benefits and real results you can see and feel. I love it. Synergy supports your mind and body through your gut with 9 billion living probiotics in refreshing flavors you will live for. Synergy makes Kombucha with a superior craft fermentation process that delivers delicious taste. And all those probiotics, they're the good bacteria that support your body, mind and even your skin. You're welcome because when your microbiome is imbalanced, you're back in sync and back in charge. That is what you get when your Kombucha is made the right way. Don't chase fads. Don't fall for modern soda hype. Choose Standards DM Energy Kombucha on Instagram with the code Thereal Kombucha to get a free bottle while supplies last. Synergy the Kombucha with Standards as you
- [33:27]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
step into a new year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this the year of you. If earning a degree has been on your mind, National University has your back. They understand the realities of busy working professionals like you in their flexible online formats. Four and eight week courses and monthly class starts help you fit school into your life, not the other way around. And Right now, National University's Year of Use Scholarship offers up to $6,000 annually for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. Make this the year of you at NU. Learn more today at NU. Edu.
- [34:07]
Sponsor Announcer
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- [34:59]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So let's talk about if we find ourselves at the pinnacle of making this decision right, Because I think for a lot of people this is a life changing Opportunity, right, Like this title. There's probably lots of money, not probably a lot of resources, which you've already talked about, right? So you're being set up for failure. But it is, I think, probably like a once in a lifetime kind of shot. And so what kinds of things should somebody even ask themselves, like if they recognize this is probably not gonna end up well for me, but do I not take the shot? What kinds of conversations should we be having with ourselves?
- [35:32]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
It actually might end up going well for you. It might. It just means you also might not be set up initially to be successful. And that's where the conversations around what you need to be successful need to be had. And do not feel bad about it because at the end of the day, it is your name, not theirs on this work. So whatever you need, it's a conversation. Just like they need you, you, come on, you need some things too.
- [35:58]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
So what kinds of things might you need to be successful in this kind of a situation?
- [36:03]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Who's the staff that's supporting me on this? That's huge. Who is the staff and do we need to hire externally? They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They could be consultants, they could be contract colleagues coming in. What's the budget and is the budget set? Because as I get in here and I find out what we need more of, we need to have more conversations about upping the budget that's got to be on the table, that fluidity and that trust for them to have in you in honoring your expertise when you say we need more funds to do this, this and this. And of course, you're going to be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about what you share and the price points for each initiative and what it would take in the team. But that needs to be there. Money and the staff, the team. And then thirdly, the trust to listen to what you have said and to not actively or indirectly, rather not try to dismiss it, not try to undermine it. You had me in this role for a reason. Trust what I got to say, listen to what I have to say. You know, if those three things are there from the jump, then go for it. If they aren't, but yet you still want to do it because one, like you said, it could be a life changing opportunity decision. And two, it can open up other avenues for you to be in collaboration with other organizations, other sectors. So for the visibility, cool. But make sure you, like I said, are documenting, documenting, documenting. Because no matter what happens on the other end, you will have the story and the narrative and the truth of what it took to get to that point, what happened in the middle of it, and how you were a leader through it. Because whatever the organization does, you're one person. That's what the organization does. But you as a leader were essential in these parts of the work, and you led them to the best of your abilities and to the extent of your expertise. And so you make sure you are very clear on that narrative that you will have to share no matter what at the end. Whether the initiative went the way you needed it to go and wanted it to go and the way you let it, or folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had, all the work you did and chose to do something differently, that's on them. But you know what you did.
- [38:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
You know, Dr. Mumbi, I'm curious if there are any pretty public examples of black women who could have been walking off the glass cliff, but then it actually turned around to be a success for them. Are you aware of any stories or
- [38:39]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
people we could look to for examples of this?
- [38:41]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Yes, I do. To be a black woman in the workspace is to be highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized. And that in itself is like living, walking, working at the edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples all around us. And what I will share is that in particular, I've been watching her leadership for a while and I thought of her as you mentioned this question. So I looked to Sheila Johnson. So she was the co founder of bet, Opened up Salamander, just released a memoir about her life, her leadership in the midst of so much that many of us can relate to. And she's definitely at least one person who has not just walked on a glass cliff, but just shattered so many ceilings and so many barriers and has lived to tell. I would lift her up right now.
- [39:38]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Her memoir is definitely on my to be read list. Cause lots of people have had great things to say about it. So I appreciate you sharing that example. So we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier, but I want us to back up a little bit because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something that may be happening
- [39:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
in the worksp space is a microaggression.
- [39:57]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
What suggestions would you have for people who are wondering, like, oh, is that behavior from the co worker? Like, is this something I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would you have there?
- [40:07]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, was that or wasn't that? Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern look for who else they are speaking to and how they're speaking to them. And look for the pattern of behavior there. If it's not there, but it's showing up with you, you might have something here. And you keep documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I work with look to this really good framework that orders thoughts that you have in conversations that can feel emotionally charged and it's out of the management center. Situation, behavior, impact. SBI so you ground the conversation in the situation when this occurred. Behavior. This is what I noticed you did. Impact. This is the impact it has had on me, on my work, on my team. Situation, behavior, impact. That is the foundation that will get you going. So notice the pattern. And then when you have the pattern document, have the documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation, behavior, impact. That is a good start.
- [41:13]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you, that's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation that you know a large part of your work and kind of stems from your own personal experience around like over indexing in work versus being available to your family. What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for how to leave work at work so that there is more of a balance in your life?
- [41:36]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Yeah, I like that you said so there is more of a balance. Not so that there is balance, because that's a practice. And I don't. I don't know, I'm really into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you joy and make you feel a sense of being. Yeah. Look at time. Look at how you're spending your time. So I have this offering. It's a mini workshop. It's called the Time Reclamation Blueprint. And it's basically a workshop around time and values that I distilled a portion of it into a document. It's on my website. You're free to get it. Look at your time. Where are you spending it? Be honest with yourself. No judgment. It's just you looking at you. Where's your time? How you feeling when you're doing it and the things that you're doing during that time and how you're feeling, you have to. That's the start. Time reclamation. Reclaim your time.
- [42:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Okay.
- [42:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Dr. Mumby, there is a trend going around on Tik Tok. So I want to see if you want to play a little game with me. I don't know if you. Are you on Tik Tok at all or pay attention to Tik Toks?
- [42:34]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
I mean, I pay attention, but I'm
- [42:35]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
not gonna Officially, we're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people are like, how do I say this thing? But in a way that's not gonna get me fired.
- [42:45]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
I'm gonna try.
- [42:45]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I wanna try.
- [42:46]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
All right, so the first one is. How do you say that's not my job? So you talked earlier about, like, your scope of work. I got this.
- [42:53]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
That's. That's it. Oh, that sounds really interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team and figure out if we have the capacity to do that and if it's within our scope at this point. Point. Because it might not be. And if it isn't, then I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might have the capacity to do this.
- [43:10]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is, I said that already, or I just said that.
- [43:17]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
I absolutely understand what you just said, And I agree. I +1, in our earlier conversations, I connected to that idea because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm happy to see that you also are in agreement with it. Let's do da da da da da da da.
- [43:33]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped with work.
- [43:38]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter, but let me go back and see if we can add this to our scope of work for quarter two or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan to make sure that what you're suggesting works within our team's capacity.
- [43:57]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Ooh, I love that. I also love how, like, the voice is, like, so much softer. Right? Because we're like, oh, let me try to massage this the way I am.
- [44:05]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
I'm giving myself away now. The softer. The softer my voice is, the more furious I am.
- [44:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Yeah. So, Dr. Mumbi, tell us, where can we stay connected with you? It sounds like you already have at least one great resource on your website. So tell us, what else can we find at your website, what is the website, and any social media channels you
- [44:26]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
want to share with us.
- [44:28]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Oh, yeah, definitely. So my website is my name. It's www.yasmeenmumpy.com. y A S M E N E M U m b y.com and I have the Time Reclamation blueprint. I have meditations. I write monthly. Ish. I say ish because I'm a human, and sometimes they don't come out. Every 30 days, a monthly ish newsletter that has all. All of the reflections and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over the month. Of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching. So nothing I put out there is in the abstract. It's all rooted in the practical, what's current and also research centered. So sign up for my newsletter from my website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now. And it's my name is Yasminy A S M e N E the TikTok and the threads and the Facebook. I am on LinkedIn. It's my name. But listen, it's Instagram and the website because I just had a 10 month old and that's all I can do right now. See, I'm talking about my capacity.
- [45:33]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Yeah, there you go. There you go. Real life examples of that. Well, thank you so much for all that you shared today. We'll be sure to include all of that in the show notes so people can stay connected with you.
- [45:43]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
I had a great time in this conversation with you. Thank you for inviting me.
- [45:46]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
Thank you.
- [45:49]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
Hi, I'm Dr. Mumby and I'm on the therapy. Thank you. Okay. Hi, I'm Yasmine and I'm on the Therapy for Black hi, I'm Dr. Yasmine Mumby and I'm on the therapy hi, I'm Dr. Yasmeen Mumby and I'm on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast and in this session today we're unpacking the Glass Cliff phenomenon. Hi, I'm Dr. Yasmeen Mumby and I'm on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast and we're in session today unpacking the Glass Cliff Phenomenon.
- [46:29]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I'm so appreciative of the thoughtful conversation
- [46:31]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
I had with Dr. Mumby and I
- [46:32]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
hope that you enjoyed today's episode. To learn more about her and her work, visit the show notes@therapyforblackgirls.com session 455 and don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have thoughts about topics you'd like to hear us discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls. And come on over and join us in our Patreon community where Black women gather to continue conversations like this one, share their own workplace experiences and support one another in navigating it all. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. Today's sponsor is Chamberlain University. You've seen them. Nurses who just own every moment, who bring calm to chaos and hope to the hopeless, who make you think, that's exactly the kind of nurse I want to be. That's not by accident, that's by preparation. As the number one largest nursing school in the U.S. chamberlain University has been preparing nurses who don't just meet the moment, they own it. Start your journey at Chamberlain. Edu Chamberlain University Belong to something greater Certified to operate by Shiv Ready or not, here they come. The new generation of leaders is in the making and these girls are already strong, smart and bold. Girls, Inc. Is the leading expert on girls and they're dedicated to helping them develop their inherent strengths and abilities, uncover new ones and tell the world about their potential. No matter what path she chooses or dreams she has, Girls Inc. Equips each girl with experiences, skills and confidence to succeed whether you're ready for them or not. Visit girlsinc.org if you work in university
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford (Interviewer)
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- [50:33]
Dr. Yasmeen Mumby
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