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- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining Me for session 457 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
- [01:04]
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- [03:28]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. You don't want to miss the annual beauty event for big savings on all your favorite beauty products now through April 28, spend $25 on participating products and save $5. Shop in store or online for items like Billie Women's razors, Billie Body Buffer or Body Wash, Native Hand Soap, Neutrogena Makeup Remover tablets and Q Tips, and save $5 when you spend $25. Offer ends April 28. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [04:03]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
At the start of a new year, it's common to see people vow to take a month long break from alcohol. But as research continues to uncover the toll that alcohol can take on our overall health, dry January has evolved from a yearly challenge into a full on lifestyle change towards mindful drinking. Now a lot more of us are seeing what does it look like to invite more sober moments into everyday life? This is where the idea of sober curiosity comes in. It's not about adopting a complete anti alcohol mindset, but about looking at it as more of an option rather than a necessity. So whether you want to swap your cocktail for a mocktail occasionally or or fully shift your habits, the journey can look different for everyone. Here to dive into exploring sober curiosity with us is our returning guest, Kristin Feimster. As a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified personal trainer, she aims for wellness in both physical and mental health in her work. Today we chat about what sober curiosity really means and why this movement is resonating so deeply for so many of us. We also talked about practical ways to step into sober curiosity and how to build a lifestyle that feels sustainable and rewarding for your overall well being. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession. Or join us over in our Patreon to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.
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It's so good to see you again Kristin.
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Kristin Feimster
Yes, it's nice to see you as well.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, thank you so much for coming back to chat with me. So I have been seeing a term that has been used online and maybe even in client circles. I'm guessing maybe you have seen this in your practice as well, Sober curious, which feels like a newer term. So what is that? What do you think people are referring to when they talk about being sober Curious?
- [06:01]
Kristin Feimster
Yes, I do think that sober curious is a new term, a movement, I guess you could call it, of people who are basically reevaluating their relationship, relationship with alcohol. Like maybe they don't feel like their habits are to the extreme, but they're still wanting to just take a more curious look at how it's showing up in their life. And so taking the steps to reduce their intake or to abstain for a period of time just to understand more about how it shows up for them.
- [06:30]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And when you've been on the podcast previously, you've talked about your sobriety journey, right? So it has been probably 10 years plus since you have been sober. Can you talk about like what was going on in your life then when you started to think like, I need to reevaluate my own relationship with alcohol?
- [06:45]
Kristin Feimster
Yes. So I'm 11 years, 11 years and some change. So we are grateful for that journey. Every day I have a different. And maybe we'll talk about this some today too. You know, I had a different experience of coming to realize my relationship with alcohol. But I do think that there were some moments in time early on, maybe before it actually became a problem for me, that I was, I don't know if curious is the word, but questioning for sure how I was using it. What were the triggers, I guess you could say that would lead me to drinking more or drinking less or the environment, that sort of thing. Things that I just started to notice. And so I think for me that journey has really just been about my journey early on was really just about coming to terms with is this still fun? I think we start to have more of a party lifestyle and do things in a more social way. And I think that through my sober curious journey portion of my journey, I realized that I was functioning or using it in a way, trying to get back to something that had already long passed, which was the fun and the light hearted, vibrant part of just living life and maybe having a few drinks, it started to take a turn for me. And I think that's where I start to explore, you know, how much am I actually drinking and is this actually fun? Am I just keeping it to social settings or do I find that I'm drinking more in isolation and how do I feel when I wake up the next morning, am I able to function for my next day? Or is this really impacting the way I'm able to show up in my career and my relationships and that sort of thing? And so that questioning began my own journey to realizing that it was time to take a long break from it for myself.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about, and even the fact that there is this conversation around sober curiosity, right, like, speaks to this shift in our relationship to alcohol. And just societally, what we think about alcohol. I think historically it has felt like it was pretty harmless. You know, it's something that everybody does, like, it's okay to have a few drinks. And it feels like we are now looking at it much more seriously as a substance that can be harmful depending on the quantities. Can you talk a little bit about, like, where we find ourselves and like the movement towards people really reevaluating their relationship to this substance?
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Kristin Feimster
I think that health trends, I hope that this one's here to stay. And I hope, I feel like, similar to how cigarettes has shifted for good as far as how we. Cigarettes used to be a thing, you know, like a fun, social, advertised, marketed thing for a long time. And then within recent years, the advertisement and the culture around it has changed. So I hope that something similar is happening with alcohol to really see the genuine impact of it as being a substance, as being a toxin for the body. And maybe some. Some of the negative impacts that we experience, such as hangovers and headaches and that sort of thing is from the impact of that. I hope that it is here to stay. But I also know that we are also experiencing an uptick in people being aware of their mental health, people pursuing fitness in a balanced way, people pursuing longevity in their health. And so I think those two components are coming together to have people realizing particularly the mental health awareness, because I don't think we've always days, if anything, maybe alcohol has been seen as a way to escape your problems and to feel better. But now we're starting to realize that, hey, that actually makes anxiety worse. That actually exacerbates my depression symptoms. And so maybe I don't necessarily need to just automatically buy into the social culture of it. And so collectively, I think we're starting to look at longevity and look a little deeper underneath the surface as far as wellness is concerned. And so alcohol being so prominent, it makes perfect sense that it would be the first thing that we would start to look at and be like, and why are we doing this so much on our weekends? And in our social lives.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
It's interesting that you point to wellness because I definitely know, of course, the mental and physical health impact. But you're right. Like, the larger conversations around wellness, I think, are shining a light on what we are doing with substances. Can you talk about maybe some of those early symptoms like sleep or the physical impact that alcohol can have? Like some of those very early symptoms that might be a sign that you want to explore your relationship to substances.
- [11:09]
Kristin Feimster
What we know about alcohol is that it's a diuretic, and so it's also a toxin to the body. And so when we ingest alcohol, our body, although we get a buzz or whatever, feel good feelings we have, our body is trying to get rid of it as soon as possible. And so a lot of times people will notice as soon as I start drinking, I can't stay out of the bathroom. Going to the bathroom over and over again. It's actually your body trying to flip, flush what you've put in it out. And that typically for most people, if you're not careful with your water and your electrolytes while you're drinking, can lead to dehydration. So a lot of the symptoms that people notice are symptoms of dehydration. Headaches, mental fog, dry mouth, different things like that. Nausea, vomiting even, can still be related to that. And when it comes to sleep, sometimes people think that alcohol is actually helping them to sleep. And although you are not awake anymore, it's not necessarily the healthiest version of sleep. And so it does depress your central nervous system, but that's only a temporary. That's not a REM sleep, a healthy sleep state. It's more of a coming into and out of consciousness. And so for a lot of people, they feel like, oh, a glass of wine or something at night, it really helps me to go to sleep. But then I don't know the exact numbers with studies, but studies will show that sleep is not exactly restful as it would have been had they gotten the same amount sober. And so I think there's a lot of misconceptions around that, that people are starting to realize when you again pay attention, when there's an increase in conversation around it, there's an awareness that comes in and then you're able to assess, how am I actually sleeping? Do I actually feel rested in the morning? I know I went to sleep, but do I wake up rested? Is actually the question. I think for me, in my younger days, hangovers were just a part of the norm, but now it's like but do I want to be hungover every Saturday morning, or do I want to have a different experience? And so I think a lot of people are noticing that for themselves and deciding to make a shift.
- [13:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, you mentioned the misconception. And I think another misconception around, like, alcohol and sobriety is that you have to hit rock bottom before you start to, like, seriously look at your relationship to alcohol. Can you address that and talk about why that may be a misconception?
- [13:23]
Kristin Feimster
Yes. So that is a common misconception rooted in, like, the extremes of addiction and how it's been depicted, I think, to us, and really maybe, you know, because we haven't had conversations about what I like to call gray area drinking, we usually don't come to understand an addiction until we can visibly see it in someone's life, whether it be their health, they're losing their job, losing their family. Then we could observe, oh, that addiction has caused them those issues. Right. And so that really leaves out a whole pool of people who are also consuming alcohol at varying levels, but they just haven't hit that typical stereotypical, the homeless, isolated individual's lifestyle to really recognize it. And so when it comes to the gift we have, I guess now with having more conversations around our relationship with alcohol is that we really can stop ourselves sooner. Whether it be because you have noticed a physical dependence that hasn't necessarily caused a lot of intense consequences, or if you find yourself on the other side of the spectrum where you're just not really sure why you're engaging with it, we actually have the opportunity to not wait until it's that bad to actually start exploring it and pulling ourselves back. I would consider myself to be one of those people in that I got sober at 26, which was unheard of at the time. Like, but you're so young, you could just, you know, you don't want to just try and see if you can manage it or whatever. And I just decided this is probably the best chance I'm going to have to address this and to live a full, vibrant life is right now. And so I also think that there were a lot more consequences that I could have and probably would have experienced had I kept drinking. But because of a healthy support system and knowing a little bit about addiction already, I was able to gather that together, to take care of it sooner than later.
- [15:12]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Kristin, you mentioned the term gray area drinking, and I feel like we've talked a little bit about, like, how alcohol has been socially acceptable, and it's okay to have a couple of drinks with Friends or happy hours. Right. Like, it really is, like, very. It has become a thing in so many of our lives, very pervasive without, I think, us even paying attention. And it feels like there is a lot that has happened in pop culture that has also normalized this idea of having a glass of wine to relax. Like, this is what I deserve after a very difficult day. Right. So I think about, like, Olivia Pope and her classic red one.
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Kristin Feimster
Right.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
With the white couch.
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Kristin Feimster
Or even my heyday.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
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How to Get Away with Murder. Like, it very much has been, like, an idea that, like, this is something that's very normal. What do you think about, like, the ways that alcohol has been glamorized in some ways and really connected to, like, stress relief and how that leads to maybe this gray area. Drinking?
- [16:04]
Kristin Feimster
Yeah, it's a challenge. It's a challenge, I think, in sobriety and as a clinician that works with people who. Where it gets complicated. And you can really see how people wrestle with, is this normal or is this a problem? For me, I get frustrated with the way alcohol is marketed and just the lifestyle of it. I can't help but see commercials during the super bowl, or there's a commercial with a beer right now that is kind of alluding to a guy having a better chance dating a girl if he brings strengths over to her. And anyway, you could just read into the underlying message. Messages and a lot of the marketing that we're fed. And so sometimes I don't even think we're actually choosing to participate into the lifestyle. I think in a lot of ways, have gotten conditioned by way of commercial here, an event there. Even in the wellness space. I've sometimes seen wellness activities paired with drinking when I think it's a way to try to market and try to get as many people as possible to see this as fun and inviting and appreciate place to socialize. And then in participating in that, that becomes the norm. So then maybe we seek them out more than we actually should and center. Center it in our lives more than we actually should. But I think we could also talk about how big alcoholism, I'm sure, billion dollar company. And so anything that's going to make money is going to be pushed on us, whether the consequences of that are positive or negative for us personally. So just being aware of those things at play and having those conversations can really help us shift the narrative.
- [17:35]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. You know that moment when your kid
- [17:45]
asks for your phone and you're already
- [17:46]
bracing yourself for whatever random video they'll disappear into have you heard of Lingokids? It's an app where kids are actually playing, singing, tapping and exploring stories. It's colorful, high energy, and designed so kids stay curious instead of just zoning out. They think they're getting a treat and it was built just for them. Lingokids Everything kids love Download the Lingokids app now on your phone or tablet. It's free. Today I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs. Most of us play a lot of roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where a national university comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited nonprofit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu.
- [19:12]
Ryan Seacrest
hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. You don't want to miss the annual beauty event for big savings on all your favorite beauty products now through April 28, spend $25 on participating products and save $5. Shop in store or online for items like Billie women's razors, Billi body buffer or body wash, native hand soap, Neutrogena makeup remover tablets and Q Tips. And save $5 when you spend $25. Offer ends April 28. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [19:48]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I've been thinking a lot about like the more we hear about like loneliness and and epidemic, especially male loneliness, although we know generally people are lonely and the continuing stressors where we find ourselves post pandemic. Just the state of the world right Like I think has led to a lot of stress and people looking at alcohol as a way to relieve that stress. Have you been having conversations or seeing things generally in your circles around like increased alcohol consumption related to all of these stressors?
- [20:16]
Kristin Feimster
I have I think naturally just for me personally getting sober early, I think my awareness of what that's looked like in conversations has kind of given me a clearer lens for what I'm hearing from my own personal relationships or of the clients or with the collective. I definitely saw an increase in. I think when the pandemic came, I think everybody was just in sheer panic emotionally on how to cope with something like that. And I do remember seeing a major uptick in associating being able to stay and work from home with drinking and letting loose and coping and rationalizing the use of alcohol because of feeling out of control and us not knowing what to expect and looking for something to help us escape or feel better. I think a lot of times around those stressors, we hear that with mommy wine culture, we hear that a lot in a lot of different ways. It just becomes normalized. And when you're struggling, you don't want to always. You never actually want to feel judged. And so I think that we then start to relate over the misery of it through this coping skill that is ultimately not helping. But I see that a lot with mommy culture. We can bond and we can relate on our similarities here and have this common coping for the relief of it and the bonding that it promotes. And so it's definitely a slippery slope of what's normal and what's not normal, because everyone doesn't necessarily need to live a sober lifestyle. But anytime you're associating drinking with those emotional challenges, I think that it's a slippery slope for future issues.
- [21:53]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So I'd love to stay there for a second because you mentioned even earlier that when you were considering becoming sober, like, there were people like, oh, you're so young. Is this something that you really want to do? And so for people who are thinking, like, okay, I'm not quite sure, like, I'm on the sober forever train, but I do want to reevaluate or become more mindful around my relationship to alcohol. Where should they start? What kinds of questions should they be asking themselves?
- [22:17]
Kristin Feimster
Well, first, I recommend getting an understanding of how much you're drinking as is. I think if you're just living life and assuming that, oh, I think I'm drinking too much, but I'm not exactly sure, I say, go ahead and get the data. Go ahead and get the data and track your drinking for a month. Track your drinking. Some people for a week, they might have the information they need. But track your drinking to see what patterns you notice, to see what the frequency is, to see what the amount is. And then from there you can decide, does this seem, objectively speaking, does this seem normal? Because anybody's going to maybe think that they should reduce their drinking or have thoughts and feelings about it when they're experiencing a hangover, right? That's going to be emotionally driven. But when you can get that data and that baseline understanding of your pattern, then you can start to look and say, is this normal? The CDC says recommends no more than one drink for women, no more than two drinks for men as being what they would call normal. And so it's like, do I abide by that naturally? Am I even hitting that norm or below? And if you find that you're averaging two each time you drink, then you can already know that, hey, maybe it's something I need to further consider and ask other questions. I would also say in this tracking you can also understand what tends to coincide with your drinking. Like is it a stressful week? Have you been going through a breakup? Are you experiencing grief? So you might even do like a mood log alongside. Like when I am choosing to drink, how am I typically feeling? Are these celebratory moments? Are these isolated moments by myself where I'm dealing with a mental health challenge? And then from there you can start to better understand that emotional connection between the two.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So thinking about like the larger conversation around the wellness space, I think that's something else that we have seen is an increase in things that are like non alcoholic beverages. Right. Or infused in other ways. I see you took a little bit of a deep breath there. So I would love, I want to hear these feelings because I feel like I don't quite know enough to know. Like, okay, where do I really stand here? And so are you feeling like these are helpful substitutes? Are they pretty neutral or is this something that you also want to be paying attention to, like your relationship to the other dreams?
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Kristin Feimster
Yeah, I think definitely paying attention to. I don't think it's neutral. And I will argue anybody down about that, clinically or personally. And I think it's important to say that for most people that I do think that how we're relating to and it's again, it's the substance, it's the association, it's the lifestyle itself too. You know what I mean? So we can be addicted to anything. So it's not about the substance itself all the time. It's about our relationship and our engagement with it. And so for me, I think that it's important for everyone to assume that it's not neutral. Maybe it ends up being something that you can take or leave and there's nothing there. But don't go in assuming that it's harmless when it may actually have other implications for you. And so I struggle with this question because there's different schools of thought and there's like my personal experience with it, my professional experience with helping people figure it out. And because the gray area is so gray, it does take time to figure out what side of this you lie on as far as if alcohol is serving you well at all, or if you should abstain completely. And so when it comes to the mocktails and the spirit free drinks and that sort of thing, it's important to know that there's a difference in those two drinks. They're not mutually exclusive. So mocktails are. My understanding and how I would like to share with the audience is mocktails are drinks that have flavor to them, have a different texture to them, like carbonation and that sort of thing. They may have different teas, different herbs in them to give them flavor, but they may not necessarily have an alcoholic alternative in them. So you might have cranberry, you might have mint, you might have some lemon, you might have a little decorative something with some club soda. Okay. But there are also other drinks where there's a spirit free liquor involved. So whether it be a vodka, tequila, gin, there's actually big alcohol companies are creating their own version of liquors basically, that have a very, very small percentage of alcohol content. And so if you look at some of bottles, you'll see where it might be advertised as alcohol free. But if you look at the back, you know where the nutritional value is, you might see where it says it actually contains 0.05% alcohol. And so those to me, are not necessarily traditional mocktails. Like you would think. This is completely alcohol free. Those drinks still have alcohol in them. And so when it comes to deciding whether you are so precarious and just wanting to scale back for health reasons, weight loss reasons, maybe you're studying for something, you just really want to lock in and focus versus if you have more of a problem drinking, I think that's a big distinction to make as far as these drinks may still have alcohol content in them. And so is that really abstaining? Is that really allowing myself to have a dry period, or is that more of what we might talk about in clinical terms being a harm reduction type of approach rather than an abstinence based type of approach. And so I think it's important for people to be informed about that, because I think I've even had a friend buy alcohol free champagne for me one time and she was like, yeah, I bought this for you. I thought it was great. It was super cute. You can do that. And we'll have our regular Champagne. And I flipped over to the nutritional facts on the back, and I was like, actually, this actually still has alcohol. And she said, oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize that that was a thing. And so I think it's good to be informed on that, to know what's best for you.
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Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
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So I'm curious, Kristin, there. It feels like there are also, like, these class of drinks that are made with maybe different kinds of, like, herbs or like, plants or like, maybe some of them are, like, THC infused. Would you say that? And I have not looked enough to know even, like, what's on the back of those. If there is, like, still some small percentage of alcohol there. Is that in the same class or is that like a separate class of, like, in between mocktails and, you know, 0.5% spirit something?
- [28:34]
Kristin Feimster
Dr. Joy? I don't know. It's a lot. It's a lot. And that's what happens when you have trends, is that it's like, it's. It starts in one way and then, you know, everyone puts their spin on it, and then it becomes something else. And so for me, I go back to keeping it simple. If you're wanting to take a break from alcohol. Gosh, there's so many things to get into with this. But the idea of how alcohol shows up, it's physical and it's emotional. And so it's not just about removing the alcohol physically. It's about not using substances to. To manage your emotions and dealing with life. You know what I mean? So in my opinion, and what I would probably recommend for anybody, especially on the front end, give yourself a chance to really experience what abstinence feels like. And then down the road, if you decide that you want to experiment with something else, you can do that from an informed place on what sobriety actually feels like for you. And then as opposed to doing it the other way. And then you don't know whether you don't crave alcohol anymore because you're drinking this drink with THC in it or because you actually can kind of muddy the water and make things more complicated. So, getting to my point of. We have to understand that part of this work is about being able to sit with your emotions and manage your mental health in a different way, and doing that substance free, doing that alcohol free. So to replace alcohol with another type of substance that's mood altering could potentially be getting in the way of your original intent. And so I think that's a conversation to have and a realization to come to for yourself. Like why am I struggling to just have a sober experience? Why do I feel like a little of this and a little of that and a small percentage of that is necessary for me to actually do this? I think that could lead to a whole nother category of questions around your relationship overall.
- [30:25]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, you mentioned, you know, like, that anything really could become addictive.
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Right.
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And so I think that that is something to pay attention to if this is something you struggle with. Right. Like this idea that you might not even be replacing your alcohol behavior with another substance, but are you not replacing it with shopping or online scrolling or. Right. Can you talk about, like, the need to pay attention to everything that might be happening, where you might just be substituting one addiction or addictive behavior for another?
- [30:53]
Kristin Feimster
Yeah. Yeah. I think that first and foremost with my clients, I try to tell them that you're human, you're a human being. Dealing with and sitting with your emotions all at one time when you've been used to coping in a certain way is going to be hard. So give yourself grace. Give yourself grace with this. A lot of time when people are taking a break from alcohol, they might notice that their sugar cravings go up. Because alcohol is a sugar, when it's broken down in the body, it has the same function in some ways in the body. And so once you reduce that habit, you might find that I'm craving something sweet more than I used to. And so you may notice that and may need to be mindful of that as well, but giving yourself grace and time to figure out what that is and to not be too, too hard on yourself. But I think ultimately the concept and the mindset that you have to wrap your head around is that I'm doing this in order to live life on life's terms more and to experience what it's like to deal with my emotions, to deal with my life, to practice new skills in a way that alcohol wasn't really allowing me to do. And so when I remove the alcohol, it's not about replacing it with another compulsive feel good dopamine kick, but also maybe building out some other skills, some other hobbies, some other outlets, some other supports so that you don't fall into the trap of overly consuming social media or overly consuming television or overly consuming anything, because again, that's still the lifestyle of chasing something to feel better other, rather than just sitting in your experience.
- [32:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You know, Kristen, I'm really curious to hear how this might look in, like, the therapist's office, because we know clients come in with, like, their Checklist of things that, like, brings them to therapy.
- [32:33]
Right.
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Like, maybe it's communication, maybe a stress management, whatever. But if you are working with a client and you recognize, like, oh, there's something going on here, I feel like as a clinician around alcohol. Right. But that is not. And express concern for them, how might or would you introduce that as something to pay attention to with a client if that's not something they bring in as a concern for them? Is there a way to do that that doesn't feel like judgy?
- [33:00]
Kristin Feimster
Yeah, I do. I do. I think for me, I kind of get a different. I get a different experience of that because I am public with my sobriety. So a lot of my clients are aware that I'm sober. And so they sometimes feel more inclined to have those conversations or even seek me out because they know that I have that background. So it does make having that authority and gently mentioning it a little bit easier because because of that commonality or that understanding already. But I try to work to question. We're not going to scapegoat anybody's use over anything else, but start to do some motivational interviewing and some questioning, just like I would do anything that seems to be a problem, maybe helping them to see a pattern in something. And it may take a while. Like I say in my personal and professional spaces, I have experienced having to wait for someone to come to their own understanding of that. That may take months, that may take years. But what I'll do in the therapy room is try to help them figure out what's the pattern here. Okay, this happens. Okay, now tell me more about. Once the stressor trigger or something hits, then what do you do? Well, that's when and if it's not alcohol, a lot of times it's food that I help my clients with too. And they'll say, well, and then that's when I end up drinking to feel better. And I was like, okay, well, do you feel better for. And then they'll say, oh, you know, a couple of hours. And then I end up going to sleep and I wake up the next day. I just ask more questions out of curiosity about how that substance or whatever that behavior is just like we would with any other behavior to help bring it more gradually into the conversation. And through that, they may come to a realization. I notice that every time we do this, maybe I might even ask, are you noticing any consistencies between these three different events that we've discussed over the last couple of sessions? And I may give them a chance to Mention. And then I say may, if it's all right. Can I share with you what I'm seeing? And then I might find a way to say, I'm noticing that typically alcohol is involved in these situations that you're having. Have you noticed that? Have you thought about that? And that usually leads to a larger conversation. And a lot of times, clients are already considered exploring it. And so it can sometimes be helpful to go ahead and lead them in that direction and break the ice.
- [35:18]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Something you've mentioned a couple of times is that a lot of this work is around, like, sitting with your emotions, right? Like that. We are often turning to alcohol or some other substance or activity because we're running from something or not wanting to sit with something. What does that actually look like? Like, what kinds of skills are you sharing or teaching clients around how to actually sit with whatever this discomfort is so that they are not turning to alcohol.
- [35:40]
Kristin Feimster
What I typically start with is trying to help my clients to name how they're feeling. A lot of times we'll have, like, a physical sensation of disappointment or missing someone or grief or anger or depression, but we're not quite able to get it. Language. And so I walk them through the naming of using the feelings wheel. Look at all feelings will to help them connect with how they're feeling physically with. With an emotion, you know, and once they get in the habit of being able to recognize that when I feel this in my chest and when I feel this ache over my right shoulder, you know, whatever their indicators are, that usually lets me know that I'm frustrated about something. And then once they understand that aspect, we go into their skills of. And what usually helps me in that moment, we practice deep breathing. I go for a walk. I journal. I call my friend. I sit, and I let myself cry. I know that when I feel that way, I need to release and let myself be sad. Find out. A lot of my clients have a hard time, even in session, just letting themselves sob and just really emotionally release. And then once they do that, the challenges they're having around something, it doesn't take the issue away, but it just allows them to kind of come back up to a more manageable place where they can navigate it. And so if you are feeling some sort of way in your body because of a stressful work day or an argument, and then you reach for alcohol, which is suppressing all of that, you never really get to learn what that emotion feels like and what it looks like to work through it in another way. But oftentimes it's just letting yourself cry. A lot of times my clients have not really allowed themselves to naturally. Like maybe they sobbed after a few drinks, but it hasn't been like a natural emoting situation where they've allowed themselves to grieve something or to be sad about something. And so sometimes you simply be practicing that in session. We're not gonna do anything else but just let you let your tears fall and see how you feel in about 10 minutes. And I'll hold space with them five, 10 minutes and just let them feel what they need to and then we debrief it afterwards.
- [37:48]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
When you were talking earlier, Kristin, you mentioned that at some point in the work you might move to a more home harm reduction strategy as opposed to
- [37:56]
like complete sobriety, which it feels like
- [37:58]
maybe this sober, curious kind of language falls within. Can you talk more about harm reduction and like when you might have that kind of conversation with a client?
- [38:05]
Kristin Feimster
Yeah, harm reduction. For those who don't know, harm reduction is a clinical term that we use primarily, not only in treatment centers, but primarily in treatment centers or as a, as a, alternative for helping with the high risk behaviors that are around addiction. And so, for example, if we're talking about someone with a drug problem that is using fentanyl or heroin or something, that might be a harm reduction practice might be to give them, it's controversial, but to give them clean needles instead of them using ones that could maybe spread disease and that sort of thing. And so in the concept of exploring your relationship with alcohol, if you've been drinking for drinks when you go out with friends, this harm reduction approach could be about reducing that to two and then supplementing the other ones with the mocktail so that you can still have whatever social lubricant you need as far as having a drink and not feeling pressured to explain where you are in your journey and go too far into it, which sometimes can happen in social settings, but you're also reducing the harm that it's causing to you to have four drinks in one sitting. And that could tie into. Now you're not driving home if you've been driving. You can more so make healthier decisions around how you handle your relationship with alcohol just by supplementing. But I will say that harm reduction isn't a fix all for everybody. And so sometimes we can justify or prolonged abstinence entertaining a harm reduction or just management moderation type of approach when really it's time to abstain and take ourselves out of straddling the fence on our use overall.
- [39:51]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
What's that line for you, Krista, maybe
- [39:53]
as a clinician and maybe even personally,
- [39:55]
if you think back to where somebody is moving beyond just being mindful of their relationships to alcohol versus, like this is now something more serious, where we have to maybe get in treatment, inpatient involved or like a higher level of care. Like, what's that line?
- [40:12]
Kristin Feimster
When I think about the sober curious lifestyle, I think of it as being something light and fun and something to explore, you know what I mean? And something that I'm not saying that it won't be hard, but there's an element of ease that's supposed to come. You're supposed to be feeling better, doing better, moving better, all these different things. And so if you find that you're really struggling with what that means for you to be sober for a period of time and you're not experiencing joy and you're not maybe even if you are experiencing some of the positive benefits, if you find emotionally you're not enjoying it, then that might speak to your relationship with alcohol a little bit more like what it's been giving you and what you've been using it for. And so that could be an indicator. I would also say that sometimes we might carry over the same behaviors into the sober curious lifestyle. So let's say, for example, you are exploring sober curious lifestyle and you're going to try the mocktails, right? Well, if you're still going into the same social environment, so you're drinking four mocktails, that might be a sign that there's still some preoccupations, some associations, something that, that even that just behavior is giving you. It's not going to go away just because the alcohol isn't present. Meaning that if you add the alcohol back, that same type of relationship is going to continue. So if you're finding it hard to hold to your goals, say you set a goal for 30 days and you find that by day 15, 16, 17, you're like, okay, maybe I'll just make it 15, and you're changing the goalposts. That could be another sign that the sober curious journey is. It's nothing wrong with it, it's to gain information. So it's maybe just assuming that it's telling you something more about how to take it more seriously for yourself. Right? And so it could be that. It could be if you're doing this two drinks, two normal drinks, and then mixing in some mocktails, if you find that that number, you start like bartering that number, like, say, okay, well maybe I'll just let myself do three this time or maybe four this time, and it keeps moving. I think that's another sign that your relationship with alcohol needs more attention. So anything that is increasing the tolerance that you have, the amount and the frequency that you're engaging with, either the mocktails or regular drinks during this time I think is something that's would be at least a yellow flag, if not a red flag.
- [42:32]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. We've all been there. You're trying to get dinner started or just need 10 minutes of peace to
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finish a phone call.
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That's where LingoKids comes in. It's an app for kids 2 to
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- [43:50]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [44:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I know the last time that we saw Kristen and even today you've talked about like support systems, how important that was for you. And just for anybody who's exploring sober curiosity or being sober or absent in all of those things, if a friend comes to you and says, hey, you know, I'm thinking about becoming sober. I'm sober, curious. I want to do more exploration around my relationship to alcohol. What does it look like to actually be a supportive friend?
- [44:45]
Kristin Feimster
I think that for. For my friends out there that are wanting to be supportive, here's what I'll say, is that when someone is coming to you to talk about their relationship with alcohol and sharing that information with you, that means that they value your friendship and that they see you as a safe friend. And so the best thing you could do is embody that with your response. Right? Because it's hard to come and share vulnerably about a struggle. So someone's coming to you that's already speaking to how they see you and what they need from you. And so avoid and stay away from judgment and guilty on, like, really, you're gonna stop drinking before our birthday trip? How could you like something like that? Keep that. Maybe you need to grieve some things about what your friend is, the changes they're making. Maybe you need to. But don't put that into that space where they really see you as a safe person. I would say instead of judgment, instead of guilting them around it, become curious yourself, like, okay, well, tell me more about how you came to this conclusion. What does that look like for you? And once you under have a better understanding of that, you might also try to support them in creating opportunities for you all to maintain your friendship that aren't surrounded by alcohol or centered around alcohol. For example, I had a good friend who had a birthday celebration, and she did it through a fitness class instead of a brunch with drinks. And so she's currently not drinking. She knows that I'm sober. I was like, this is perfect. I don't have to worry about, you know what I'm saying? I'm just in my environment. This is a great way to stay active, to have fun. We had music, we were moving. Everything else was good. It's just that alcohol was not the center of that experience. And then the last thing I would say for friends is just celebrate your friends. If they tell you that, hey, I'm 10 days sober, 30 days sober, if they share a milestone with you, if they share anything that is moving them towards their goals, even if you don't quite understand everything about it, celebrate them. Because it's hard. It's hard to make that decision when, like we said, the world around you is promoting the alternative, the other. And so be curious, create spaces for them and celebrate them.
- [46:56]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You know, one of the unfortunate things it feels like that happens when somebody mentions that they are sober is that there tends to be this like, oh my gosh, what a buzz kill. Oh, I can't believe, like you mentioned, like, oh, you're going to before our birthday trip. Right. Why do you think that somebody else expressing their desire to be sober brings up such defensiveness in some people?
- [47:16]
Kristin Feimster
I think because when you're drinking, it lowers your inhibitions. You know, you're not thinking with your brain fully online. And so is it fun? Yeah, I mean, we don't have to make it seem like it's just all bad. I mean, there are some fun elements to letting loose and letting go and presumably being stress free for a moment. That's why it catches a lot of people up. Right. So we can understand the Greek around someone deciding to do differently. But I also think that sometimes it can hold up a mirror to things that person is not there yet with. And so sometimes it's like they can even be supportive and but say, yeah, but not for me, or distance themselves or they might outright say something. And I think that might be something more of a projection of realizing that perhaps in a hypothetical scenario, without my drinking buddy now who am I going to drink with? Because I'm not ready to do that, to go down that journey just yet. And so I think you can come out of just being resistant to change. And so by you changing, it's naturally going to change your friendships. And so some of those friends may struggle with a change that they didn't necessarily opt into. And you might be hearing some of that frustration.
- [48:27]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Is there any language that you can give our community to borrow? Maybe you mentioned around you find yourself in situations where maybe you're with people who aren't really close friends or like maybe their co workers and you are wanting to be sober, but you don't want to have to go into your whole life story talk about why you're making this decision. Are there any things that you can offer for people to be able to stay in the moment, to set a boundary, but like keep it moving kind of thing.
- [48:52]
Kristin Feimster
Don't overcomplicate it. I think that when we get into explaining things, that's when we usually trip ourselves up. And so my therapist taught me this, and I teach my clients this is that you're informing them of a decision. You're not asking for their permission, you're not asking for them to agree or to make you feel better about it. You're informing them. And so even just that mindset shift From I'm not explaining to them, oh, I'm not drinking because, you know, the headaches and I just couldn't do it anymore. You have to give them the whole story. You're just informing them. And even that can shorten what you feel like you need to say. Because I'm not drinking tonight, really? Is all you have to say. And even if they ask, well, really, why not? Why don't you just have one? You can still reiterate, yeah, I'm just not drinking tonight, period. But when you go into explaining, I think that's where the burden of it and the heaviness comes. I was just like, oh, how am I going to get myself out of this conversation? So I would encourage people to go in and say, I'm going to inform my friends of my decision for tonight and it's going to be what it's going to be. It's final. As opposed to, oh, gosh, how am I going to explain to them why I'm not drinking and what happened last weekend and how that's a little bit more. Again, giving them more than they really need to know about it. So I'm not drinking tonight, Even maybe not sharing it with them. But explaining it to the server can be helpful to have the server not continually come around and ask you. You're letting him know. It lets friends know all at one time, and then you can lessen the pressure there. But honestly, if you can really realize that saying, I'm not drinking tonight or today or I don't want to drink as being all you have to say, it really lightens the burden of it in social settings.
- [50:33]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Thank you for that. I think that that will be incredibly helpful for people who have been struggling with, like. Because you're right. Like, we get into, like, all of the explaining and like, how do I say this when it really could just be as simple as, no, thank you, I'm not interested in that tonight.
- [50:44]
Kristin Feimster
I'm not interested yet. It is again, it's your confidence around it. It's your sureness around it. I think that sends people like, oh, okay, well, she's sure. She's just informing me.
- [50:53]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You know what I'm saying? Right, Right.
- [50:55]
Kristin Feimster
When you seem a little shaky that it's just like, okay, tell me more. Why did it. You know, and then. But when you inform them, they're like, oh, bet. Okay, well, there's that. Moving on.
- [51:03]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right, right. For somebody who may be enjoying our conversation and they are newly sober, curious, is there one small step they can take this week to Kind of go a little further on their journey.
- [51:16]
Kristin Feimster
I would say if you are drinking, still actively drinking, do the tracking, do the tracking of how much you're drinking for the next week and just see how, get an understanding of that. And if you're not actively drinking and don't plan on it, give yourself, maybe go ahead while you're in this space of being curious and give yourself the gift of sobriety for a period of time. Maybe just commit to something small like just commit to the week. You don't have to commit to the rest of your life. I know when I got sober I was not thinking about 11 years from that point at all. And even at this point, I'm not thinking about year 20, I'm just thinking about 11 years, years and however many months, like staying in the day. But go ahead if you're thinking about it, if you're listening to this podcast, if you've been exploring it, that's all you really need to just lean in a little bit more and honor that. And so if you're still drinking, not ready to quit or take a break at all, I would say you can just start out by tracking judgment free. Or if you're in a place where you're sober listening to this and you want to give it a go, go ahead and try a week of just full sobriety and mark your mood and kind of journal a little bit about what that experience is like. And then from that place of information, you can decide and inform your next steps after that. But start now, start now with something that you can be consistent with.
- [52:36]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Kristin, what's one piece of advice that you would give your 18 year old self?
- [52:40]
Kristin Feimster
Oh, wow. Oh wow. Dr. Joy. Wait a minute now you left. Wait a minute.
- [52:45]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I didn't know this was about to be about me.
- [52:49]
Kristin Feimster
Just that I mean, I would, gosh, we could have a whole yama fix my life with my 18 year old self. But seriously. But I would just tell her, I think that this is a little bit longer than maybe what you're asking for. But I think I was just so unsure of myself and my skills and my gifts and my strengths. When I thought that I needed more, I thought I needed more courage and more intelligence and more. And when I think about the role alcohol played in my life even at that age, because I know we're not supposed to drink till 21, that's another story. I was trying to fill in the gaps of insecurity and feeling inadequate. It's like it gave me some wings that made me feel like I could be in this space and be myself and that sort of thing. But if I could just somehow get to her and say the personality that you have, the quirkiness that you have, the silliness, the awkwardness, the intelligence that you have is your strength and don't dim it, don't dim it. Don't be ashamed of it. I think that would have really helped me along the way.
- [53:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Thank you for offering that. I appreciate that, Kristen. So, Kristen, remind us where we can stay connected with you.
- [54:00]
What is your website?
- [54:02]
Any social media channels you are you like to share and any new offers or new programming that you're offering through your practice practices.
- [54:09]
Kristin Feimster
Yes. So my website is b3 by kristen.com that's the letter B, the number 3 by kristen.com I'm on Instagram with my name at Kristen Themester, TikTok. The same YouTube, the same. So on other platforms it's my personal name. And right now I am accepting clients for therapy in North Carolina and South Carolina. I can see individuals and couples. I help individuals and couples with topics such as this, how addiction showing up in their life, other habits, other patterns, other cycles and things that they are trying to work on. And so I can serve people in both North Carolina and South Carolina for that. I also have a wellness community called the B3 Crew. And everyone in there are women over the age of 35 who are really coming to terms with what wellness looks like for them. And so they are working on being consistent with their fitness journey and they're working on improving their mental health through the courses and the resources that I offer within my wellness community community. So if therapy is not quite a fit or if you already have a therapist and you just need some more supplemental day to day, week to week resources, the B3 Crew community is that supplemental element to a lot of people's therapy journey. And people in there are super curious. They are working on their relationship with food. There's a lot of deeper work that's going on so you'll find someone that looks like you and can relate to what you're going through.
- [55:30]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Perfect. We will be sure to include all of those resources in our show notes. Thank you so much for sending some more time with us today, Kristen. I really appreciate it.
- [55:37]
Kristin Feimster
Yes, thank you, Dr. Joy. Thanks.
- [55:39]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Of course.
- [55:43]
I'm so glad Kristin was able to join me for today's conversation to learn more about her and her work. Be sure to visit the show notes at therapy for black girls.com session457. And don't forget to text two of your girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM therapyforblack Girls and let us
- [56:09]
know what's on your mind.
- [56:11]
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@theapyforblackgirls.com directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram @theapyforblackgirls or join us over in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. You know that moment when your kid
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Lingokids Everything kids love. Download the LingoKids app now on your phone or tablet.
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It's free.
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Today I wanted to share some thoughts about investing in your future while showing up for your present needs.
- [57:28]
Most of us play a lot of
- [57:29]
roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. But many of us also think about another role that could take our lives to where we want it to Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your busy life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, four and eight week courses, monthly class starts and year round enrollment. NU is an accredited non profit university that makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. With over 150 different degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals too. Learn more today at nu.edu.
- [58:23]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [58:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
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