← There Are No Girls on the Internet
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- [00:00]
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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this
- [01:16]
Bethenny Frankel
is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. I better digestion, healthier skin, more energy Dogs that feel better My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.
- [01:52]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
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Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
at the top of the standings.
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- [02:27]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
There Are no Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There are no girls on the Intern It. So this is going to be a little bit different from our normal Tuesday episodes that usually have an interview or a conversation of some kind. Because we have a little announcement here at There are no girls on the Internet. That is, I guess I'll say, pretty important to me, to us, to the team. I've got producer Mike here to help me with it.
- [02:59]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yes, it's a big day at There are no gos on the Internet. Thanks for having me here to share this with the listeners. I'm pretty excited about it.
- [03:08]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
So without further ado, we're writing a book. Actually, we have written a book. It is written. It is currently with an editor as we speak. There are no girls on the Internet. We have a book coming out.
- [03:22]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, we have a book coming out. Exactly. It's pretty exciting. I never thought that we would write a book.
- [03:27]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
I'm pretty excited. I you all are kind of hearing this first as listeners. The publishing company just went live with the Instagram announcement mere moments before we got on the microphone. So if I sound a little out of it, today's been a bit of a whirlwind of announcement and then feeling. I'm an anxious person. And sometimes when I get good news, my first inclination is, oh shit. The way that I feel big feelings is to retreat, but I'm having to navigate feelings that are feelings that are weird for me. And I'm trying to do my best and not just go to my natural inclination, which is just to retreat. You need to be public when you're doing a book. So that's what this is. The book is called Love at First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy. So you're probably wondering, what is this book actually about? I have been describing it as the movie her meets the Netflix documentary the Social Dilemma. Folks might remember we did an episode about people who are finding themselves in intimate connection with AI. A lot of that looks like romantic or sexual connection, but not all of it. Sometimes it's platonic connection, sometimes it's the use of AI for therapy. Side note, Bravo watchers will know there's a character on Southern Charm who exclusively uses ChatGPT for therapy, but the book definitely explores that use case for AI. So folks who listen to that episode of the podcast about connections with AI like that might recall that we were trying to approach it from a very specific lens, which was nonjudgmental, leading with curiosity, leading with empathy, and really just trying to understand what folks were saying when they reported finding benefits or finding themselves in these kinds of connections with AI. And. And when we did that episode. Part of the reason why I took that stance is just that I think that an empathetic, curious stance is always a good stance to take on a subject that you don't know a ton about. But part of it was also that I had not done a deep dive into the available research. There are people who specifically research the impacts of intimacy and AI on. From a public health perspective, from a individual perspective, the harms, the benefits. I, at that point of the episode, did not know any of that. So I say that to say that from where I began with this topic to where I ended, two radically different places I went. And I actually would be curious for your take too, Mike, because when we started writing the book, I had a deadline of my first 10,000 words. And the first 10,000 of those words were written before I had really dug into the research. It was just sort of setting things up. And the introduction and all of that. It was 10,000 words about how people who find themselves an intimate connection with AI are really lonely and that AI companies are profiting from this loneliness. Now, that second part, I think, is still true and that the book really deals quite heavily with that. But I was really surprised by the fact that the research did not really bear out my anecdotal, uninformed opinion about what is driving people to intimate connections with AI. So we ended up having to scrap that. Those first 10k words, which, you know, I took pretty rough. I know that, you know, that was not a good day for me, the day that we had to make that big change. But, you know, the research is the research.
- [06:51]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
That's right. Yeah, I had the same experience getting into it. You know, I started one place, really, with a lot of assumptions about the harmfulness, I think, of people talking with their AI companions. You know, we. Assumptions that it was reinforcing loneliness and pushing people apart. And that's what we got into the research that really just wasn't borne out by the research that people have been doing. So, like you said, we wrote a bunch. And the narrative sort of evolved as we were learning more about what the research had to say about this and then really changed. Yeah, we had to just throw a bunch out, which was painful, but I guess, you know, just all part of the process. And, you know, where we ended up, I think tells a much more interesting story than if we had just written the whole thing based on our starting assumptions without, like, actually learning more about what is going on with this?
- [07:55]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yes, not necessarily great for hitting publisher deadlines, but really good for telling an honest and authentic story that is rooted in research. And one note on the research is that I was really surprised to find out that there are people who have been researching this, this intersection of AI and intimacy for a long time. Probably one of my favorite and also most surprising interviews in the book is from Dr. Kate Devlin, who was someone who got to this research very early. She started her research researching what you might consider to be sex bots. So like ex machina companion, you know, hot physical bots, not AI. And y' all might remember that we kind of lived through a bit of a moral panic about sex bots, physical sex bots, that people were going to be spending thousands and thousands of dollars for these hyper realistic AI enabled sex bots and have relationships with them. Well, that really didn't turn out to be the case. There are a few people who, who do that. However, mostly it's just niche, like it's, it's not us a spreading phenomena. When Dr. Devlin looked into this, she realized, okay, the bot angle of this is just not going to happen. The part of it that I think is going to happen is the AI connection, bit of it, because a lot of these, these physical bots people are going to be taken with AI's ability to mirror and learn as it pertains to emotional connection and romantic connection. So the sex bots? No, the AI, yes. So she really got there early and I was genuinely surprised by a lot of her research. We, we dive quite deeply into a lot of the risks and the harm. So, you know, I don't want to make it sound like I'm saying there are no risks and there are no harms, because boy howdy are they. And we definitely get into it in the book, as does Dr. Devlin's research. But I think that our conversation with Dr. Devlin grounded the entire thesis statement of the book, which is that pretty much every researcher, every expert, every technologist, every journalist that we speak to for this project said some version of the same thing, which is that the risk is real. However, the widespread risk of harm is not necessarily that individuals are going to be pushed into deeper and deeper isolation or loneliness or things like that. The widespread risk of harms is what are these companies doing? What are these companies profiting from? Are these companies behaving in ways that are ethical? Are these companies misleading people and misleading people about risk? And so I really started to see this as a moral panic. It's so tempting to dunk on people who are self reporting relationships with AI or self reporting intimate connections with AI. I absolutely get it. These people are easy targets. They're being vulnerable about the. The intimacies. So they're easy targets in the way that we're all easy targets and we open up about intimate parts of our lives. However, we are spending so much time gawking at people who are self reporting their relationships with AI and intimacy with AI that we are missing that these companies are profiting from their control over these emotional and intimate connections. I think from the beginning of the book to where we landed, it's really about changing that. That perspective and shifting the lens away from individuals and really asking questions about corporate harm and what is the risk of harm here. So again, these kinds of intimate connections with AI are not without harm, but that harm is corporate. That harm is companies capitalizing off of people.
- [11:42]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
That's right. And it's a framework that we've talked about on this show pretty often. I think that there is often an attempt to blame the harms of technology on the victims. And I think that tendency allows companies often to skirt accountability. And it's aided by the fact that it can be really salacious, dramatic, interesting to focus on the interpersonal stories or the personal stories of people who are harmed. You know, in the book, Bridget, you make the analogy to the. The icloud photo hacks when a bunch of celebrities had their personal photos hacked and leaked. And rather than focusing on the people who had committed these hacks and the social media platforms that happily allowed these hacked sexual photos to be spread across the Internet, a lot of the discourse focused on the individuals and their own culpability for even taking these photos in the first place. And I think that's a good analogy here to describe, you know, this phenomenon as we are coming to terms with what it means that AI chatbots exist in the world here and people are talking with them. Right. Like. Like it or not, this is a phenomenon that's happening. And there's. Like you mentioned, there's a lot of scorn and ridicule focused on the people who are experiencing this. And that just feels misplaced from where the actual harms are occurring, according to the experts that we spoke with.
- [13:31]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Exactly. I'm glad that you brought up that moment in the book about the photo hack. I think I've said this on the podcast. I shoehorn it into every conversation, even when it doesn't fit. I shoehorned it into the book. I sure did find a way that when the Icloud photo hack happened. The then New York Times tech columnist tweeted like, oh, a man tweeted, I have a helpful tips for women. Celebrities who don't want their photos to be leaked don't take nude photos. And he did later delete that tweet and apologize. Apology very much not accepted. Because I feel that that really highlights exactly the thing I am trying to get at in this book, that when there are harms that are institutional or corporate, it is so easy to blame the people who are targeted or who get caught up in it. And while we're doing that, these companies are like, thank God that they're just blaming these people and not blaming our systems that enabled it and the way that we made money from it. And I guess I'm with the book that I'm really trying to to write what I feel like is an institutional wrong and kind of pump the brakes on blaming or ridiculing or gawking at people who are self reporting these kinds of intimate connections with AI and really turning that lens over to companies like Replica OpenAI that run them that I would argue enable them that say, oh, emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy is a great way to be using our platform until it no longer serves them. And then they turn right around and say, oh, this is an inappropriate use case for our platform. They want to have it both ways. And yeah, I just, I think we should be talking about that. And I think that one of the reasons why I have a bee in my bonnet about this a little bit is that because it's something that I think is salacious and like, easy to gawk at and easy to ridicule. The people who could probably tell us the most about why they have turned to AI for therapeutic support or romance or companionship, we are hearing from them the least. Right? Like people, there are millions of people for whom that is the case for and because of this dynamic where they feel they are going to be ridiculed. Sometimes they, they're not doing interview, sometimes they're not, you know, like talking to researchers. And I do think that we can learn a lot about where we are right now and where we might be headed from what these folks have to say. But right now we don't have a dynamic that allows for these folks to really be heard. And I think that that needs to change. And you know, I don't think anybody listening to this podcast will be surprised to know that I'm a, what you might call an AI critic, AI skeptic, whatever you want to call It. However, you know, when you have somebody like Mark Zuckerberg going on a podcast and saying, oh, in the, in the near future, the majority of your friends will be AI and you'll love it when he's saying something like that. Side note, it's AI that I run, that I profit from. It's AI that I'm giving you as a substitute for friendship after my platforms really eroded friendships. So I'm, I'm causing the problem and I'm selling you the cure. Even with all of that, I don't think that he is necessarily wrong. That is not a future that I necessarily want. Like, I don't want a future where the majority of my friendships are AI. Certainly not. I don't want a future designed by Mark Zuckerberg. I don't think that my idea of a good future and Mark Zuckerberg's idea of a good future are aligned. However, I do think there's some. I don't think that he's wrong in pointing out the ways that more and more people are turning to AI for intimacy. So we should be talking about it. We should be looking at it. We should be, like, asking questions about how it's going. And yeah, I guess that's what this book is an attempt to do.
- [17:19]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
That's right. And when the conversation is focused on, you know, salacious stories, making fun of the people who are involved, not only does it allow Mark Zuckerberg and the people who run these companies to avoid accountability, but we also miss out on a lot of interesting things that we might learn by actually engaging in a more thoughtful, inquisitive way. And I think one of the really interesting things that I learned in the process of writing this was just how the people who feel like they are in intimate relationships with AI companions really don't view it as a replacement for humans. For the most part, with some big exceptions that we cover in the book, these are healthy, non delusional adults that view it as a different type of thing. And I think that's really interesting. And, you know, exploring the ways that they. How they think about this thing that they are doing and what the research has to say about it, I think can shed a lot of light, not just onto this phenomenon, but about the bigger questions of what it means to be in a relationship, period. You know, it's like having this other type, this totally new other type of relationship, I think gives us a slightly different perspective to understand the relationships that we have with each other, with other humans, and what makes them so unique and valuable.
- [18:50]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yes. And we do interviews in the book with people who have had intimate connections with AI or used AI in that way that you've just described. Mike. So the common anecdotal attitude is those people are really delusional. I was really surprised to hear how clear eyed they think about AI and how deliberate they are about the roles that AI play in their own personal lives in ways that like I certainly am not. And it kind of made me think not only are a lot of these people not delusional, they have a firmer grasp on what AI is and what it isn't and what it can and what it can't be for them emotionally than I had ever thought about myself,
- [19:32]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
and a firm grasp on how it shows up in their life and what they want from it, like how they want it to impact their life. One of the surprising things for me was how several of the people we spoke with described how talking with their AI companion actually allowed them to connect with other humans, either through like finding online community among people who are similarly talking with their AI companions, or by boosting their social confidence or their self esteem or helping them work through something so that they were better able to show up in their IRL human to human life. Which again was not something that I expected going in at all, but came through pretty clearly in the research.
- [20:25]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yes, pretty much everything I thought I knew about this subject is kind of wrong. Let's take a quick break.
- [20:39]
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- [21:39]
Capella University Announcer
You've never been one to settle, stand down or stand still. You're a lifelong learner, energized by excellence. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. You've got competition to outrun, momentum to build on, and your own high standards to meet. Stop now. Not a chance. At Capella University we help you catch what you're chasing because you've always had the drive. Now go earn the degree Capella University. What can't you do? Visit Capella. Edu to learn more.
- [22:09]
Public Investing Sponsor
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus you when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this
- [23:10]
Bethenny Frankel
is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy. Dogs that feel better. My babies, if you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.
- [23:52]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
And we're back. So we're talking about my new audiobook Love at First Prompt being published by Simon and Schuster, which you can pre order now. And basically everything that I thought that I knew about intimacy and AI was wrong. Like I assume that people who foster intimate connections with AI are doing so in an attempt to replace human connection. But actually the research really clarified that their Human connections are often deepened by whatever their connection is with AI. When we talked to Dr. Devlin, she talked about this experience of getting emails from people, like strangers from all over the world, where the stranger will say, I think I'm in love with AI. I'm writing to you because you researched this. I know you'll understand, what should I do? And she'll say, like, wow, these people, they seek me out, another human to confide in. You know, they like, they, they, they're, they're connecting with me and emailing me and reaching out to me, another human, because of this connection they have with AI. And so the idea that, oh, the AI would be enough for them, they're going to use AI to replace their human, a human connection. If that was the case, they wouldn't be reaching out to Dr. Devlin, who was very much a human. Right? And so all of these ways that connections with AI actually pushed people to be in deeper relationship with the humans in their life, I found fascinating. Again, all of this sounds hunky dory, but when people put these kinds of connections and emotional weight in the hands of companies like Replica and OpenAI, that's when things can really get risky. And so we do obviously have instances where people were genuinely harmed by intimate connection with AI. We talk quite a bit about some, some high profile cases. And so certainly that is part of the conversation. But I don't think that these high profile tragedies are the only harms that these companies should be accountable for. Doing the research makes that super clear. You know, we do have these horrible instances, these horrible tragedies where young people are harmed or they die by suicide because of connections with AI. Yes, and those are not the only kinds of harms that these companies need to be accountable for. And I feel like right now the conversation is really based on these high profile harms, understandably. So in some cases, while kind of missing the bigger picture of, well, can we trust these companies to hold connections so intimate, can we trust companies run by people like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and Sam Altman with our deepest, most intimate connections and feelings and the most human parts of ourselves?
- [26:37]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
That privacy risk, I think is a really big one that we talk about quite a bit because, yeah, a lot of people really share deeply personal stuff with their AI chatbot. And we have a whole chapter talking about how people engage with them, almost like therapy. And it's complicated because a lot of people are getting a lot of value out of it. And independent studies have said that a lot of that Information have said that a lot of the feedback that their chatbots give them is actually pretty good from like a clinical perspective, but not all of it is. And then there is that existential question of, like, what does it mean to be sharing your deepest, darkest secrets with a company that is just going to hold on to your data and use it for. You don't even know what. Right. Like, maybe they're going to use it to train models, which means that it's in there and it might be accessible to other people to find. They might sell it to other companies who would be even less, have even fewer scruples about what they do with it. So I definitely left feeling like that is perhaps one of the biggest, scariest pieces that we as a society need to tackle. Related to this, one of several.
- [27:56]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
That was probably one of my favorite chapters to write in the book. I was very proud of the title of that chapter. So the book is sort of about. We use romance as the jumping off point, but then we dive into all of these other kind of AI connections and that using the romance theme, that chapter is called the hardest part of breaking up is getting back your stuff. If you know that, if you, if you get that, if you are as old as me and you get that reference, leave it in the Spotify comment so I can sneak a heart in there. But it's true. If you're thinking about AI as something that you can have an intimate connection with. But AI companies are like, we'll tell. We'll use whatever you tell it however we want. And you have no idea how that. What that's going to be is that really intimacy? And if we're, if we're using the theme of a romantic relationship, wouldn't that be kind of a bad relationship? If you're in relationship with something that's going to. You have no idea how what you are sharing is going to be used, is that really intimacy? You know, we have the sort of coup de grace of the book is a conversation with one of my favorite journalists, Karen Howe, who wrote the book Empire of AI, and people who run companies like Sam Altman. I think, in my opinion, really cannot be trusted. And what does it mean when we have more and more people who are trusting the most intimate parts of ourselves with people who, in my opinion, really cannot be trusted, who go out of their way to speak in these terms that obscure what they're actually saying, what they're actually going to do? And I think the book really teases at some of the existential problems with, with that dynamic. Yeah.
- [29:36]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Like we don't trust those individuals who are leading those companies. But even if it were other individuals, we shouldn't trust those companies. Right. Like we just. It's just fundamentally flawed to trust companies with that level of our intimate secrets. Right. Like they've proven over and over again they can't be trusted. Right. Like we need privacy laws. But that's digressing a little bit from the book.
- [29:59]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Right.
- [29:59]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
The book doesn't really get so far into that.
- [30:02]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
So I wrote this book. Mike is our co author. We did write it together. We make the podcast together every week. How was it writing a book with me? Just out of curiosity? You can be honest. I know we had some ups and downs.
- [30:17]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
It was exciting. Yeah. I was really grateful to be invited to be your co author and help, you know, bring some social science into the book. It was fun. It was exciting. I have such a love hate relationship with writing. A quote that you've said before is like, I love having written. I hate writing. That really resonates. It's so.
- [30:40]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
I think that's Dorothy Parker.
- [30:42]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Oh, that wasn't a Bridget original. That was Dorothy Parker.
- [30:44]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
No, that's a Dorothy Parker original. I wish I was that clever.
- [30:49]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
But it's really true. It's like writing is so difficult, especially this book, because it's an incredibly fast timeline. Right. Because it's such a timely topic, the publisher wanted to get it out right away. And so it was just a little bit under two months that we had to write this thing. And that time period included Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's. So it was really intense, really fast. It was interesting working with you, Bridget. Just seeing the different ways that we write. You know, I come from more of like an academic background where the main type of writing is academic articles and scientific journals where a team of co authors revises and revises and endlessly revises. And by you know, the end, you've spent tens of hours, if not more to end up with, you know, maybe a 15 page article. And it's just so interesting seeing that juxtaposed with, I think your experience writing in various media formats where you just have to get stuff out. And just watching the words, like, fill the document as you were typing was kind of amazing.
- [32:02]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yes. I would say what I learned is that I write fast, but not always. I subscribe to the axiom, write drunk, edit sober. Is that it? Yeah. Write drunk, edit sober. So I might just get it on the page. We'll deal with it later. So we would be. We would say like, we're just in the whole afternoon writing. I'd be like, I've written 5,000 words. 2,000 of them are maybe okay. You know, you'd be like, I've written a paragraph, but that paragraph is phenomenal.
- [32:32]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
It's a really great paragraph. Yeah, it's like tight starts, one place goes another. The. The readers are gonna love it. Or the listeners, I guess, because it's an audiobook, right?
- [32:41]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yes. Yeah, we. I just realized I have not even said the name of the book, which is. You see how good I am at promoting my own stuff. I should probably say the name. The name of the book is Love at First Prompt AI and the Future of Intimacy. It is a audio original through Simon and Schuster. So it is not a physical book. It is an audio book. You can pre order it if you go to Love at First Prompt AI, which is a domain name that we bought, that we were really stoked to have. So that is the book. But yeah, writing it with you was interesting because you really learn. It's one thing to make a podcast together, it's a quite another thing to write a book together. And ultimately we got it done. And that timeline, I think we. I think I signed the contract the week of Thanksgiving, and the full thing was due to at the end of January, so really had to write it fast. And also just that, because as we know from doing the podcast news with. It changes so quickly. So stuff that I would write in December, within a week, it was outdated. And so really was. I understand why we had to get this in so quick because it's just such a evolving topic.
- [33:53]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, I'm really pleased with how it came together. I think the format is really interesting, the audiobook format, because it's not like a standard audiobook where the listener is just hearing the author or a voice actor read what's on the page, but there's actually interviews and conversations with people embedded throughout. So I think the. The format is pretty interesting and kind of innovative. And I also feel that the substance of how you told the story, it's quite masterfully done. I mean, this is why I like making a podcast with you. I think you're really good at telling these stories about technology in ways that are both personal and grounded in the science and the reported facts. And it ends up feeling like something sort of in between. You know, it's. It's not just a narrative bunch of vignettes. It's not a collection of essays. It's not a textbook. It's something that I think is Character driven, but also informative, if I might say that, about our work.
- [34:58]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yeah, I'm glad that you put it that way, because it is a very personal work to me. Not only is it just a lot. There's a lot of myself in this book, but also I talk about, you know, my own grief journey and the way that AI showed up in that journey, which I think might be a surprise to some listeners. But, you know, I am not someone that I would say that I'm in or have had any kind of, like, intimate connection with AI. However, I am someone who had what you might describe as a mental break. Is that too. Maybe that's too strong. And I think that when you. I'm fine now, but I guess I'm someone who, at my lowest moments, I know what it feels like to turn to anything for comfort. And that's sort of my starting place in this book, is that at my lowest moments, when I'm searching for just anything that will be helpful in me feeling better, I know what it feels like to turn to things that in the moment, might offer comfort. But then you take a step back and say, well, was that good for me? You know, what. What was I participating in, in looking for that moment of personal comfort? So the book is a blend of research and other people's stories, but also very much my own story. Navigating tough shit and the way that AI played into that.
- [36:21]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, you're. You're quite personal in the book. You know, I really commend you for how much you were willing to share about your own personal life and some of the. The darkest moments that, you know, we've shared a little bit with. With listeners over the past two years or so. But there's a lot more of it in the book, and I think it was quite brave of you to share all that.
- [36:44]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yeah, I just. I. I don't want anyone to think that I'm coming from this. From a place of not really getting it, because I feel like. I feel like I do really get it. And that is really what I think drove me to not just want to write this book, but also my interest in these use cases of AI. Right. Like, I have been drawn to this topic even before I had done any of the research because of my own personal connection to it. And I am glad that Simon and Schuster, who is our publisher, saw something in this, and I'll brag on myself a little bit, if that's okay, which is that I signed to a literary agency at the same time that this offer for the book came to be, and those two things happened independently, which was unusual. And I was talking to someone, just chit chatting with someone, and they were like, wait a minute. So someone at Simon and Schuster heard your podcast episode and thought, that should be a Simon and Schuster audio original, got in touch with you, and then you wrote it? And I said, yeah, that's what happened. And they were like, that's incredibly unusual. Most writers are like, submitting stuff and getting rejected, and it sucks. And it's awful. The fact that not only did your literary agent come to you, but then Simon and Schuster came to you, that's a nice situation. And I did not realize that. And I agree that is a nice situation. So I don't mean it braggy, but it just feels good that people are listening to these stories and it feels good that people see value in them. And I guess I say. I say that to say that you never know who's listening. If you're out there and you make a podcast, you write a thing, you have a blog or a substack or whatever, a beehive, you never know who is engaging with what you have to say in the world. And even though if it feels like no one's listening, an editor from Simon and Juicer could be listening and reach out to you to do a really cool project. So that was really cool. Podcasting is my main thing, my main hang. I will always be an audio girl, audio forever. You know that. But I am very interested in, you know, print, in writing, in film, especially other kinds of media. And so it's really nice to have an opportunity to. To branch out a little bit. It's still an audio first project, so I felt kind of comfortable making that transition, but it felt good to have the opportunity to flex in these different style a little bit.
- [39:08]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, different style and different lengths, different format. You know, we make this podcast every week, twice a week. And it was just such a different process to write a book. Right? Like just a much longer thing where the beginning and the end are so much further apart. Right. And there's so much more opportunity to cover ground in the middle than we get in a typical podcast episode.
- [39:36]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yeah, I remember when Simon and Schuster told us how many words that they thought the book should be. I was like, I don't think I could. I've never written anything of this length before. Am I ever going to be able to fill this many words by the end? I was like, oh, no, it's double what they asked for. Is this going to be okay? I cannot believe if anybody listening is wants to write a book and they're thinking they cannot fill a certain number of words, yes you can. Yes you can. You will be surprised. Once you get going. You're like, oh, actually, I have a lot to say. Good luck shutting me up. Let's talk about the sequel. More after a quick break.
- [40:19]
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- [41:49]
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- [42:50]
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- [43:42]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Let's get right back into it. I think that when you are a self employed creative you really get a mentality in your head that you can never really just take a minute and be happy about something. And when we signed the book deal I was pretty happy. The signing felt so good and then I was like, oh, now I have to write it. And that part was a little bit rough. And now it's turned in and I'm trying to be intentional about trying to like just be a little happy for a little bit and maybe people will read it and hate it and that's fine. But in this moment, nobody's read it but me and you and the editors. So you know, I can just sort of bask in it a little bit.
- [44:19]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, bask in it. Take it in. It's. It's been a real emotional roller coaster. Like it was a very intense period of time trying to write this thing. It was all consuming, right? Like we spent most of our time working on it almost every day. Other projects kind of got reshuffled around so that we could make space for it. It was very all consuming. And then all of a sudden it's written and it's done and it's turned into the copy editor and I think we've both, over the past couple days, been feeling with a little bit of that, like, roller coaster of emotion and attention where this big thing that was demanding our time and energy all of a sudden is no longer demanding it. And so I guess I can speak for myself. I feel. I felt a little bit like I have a lot of energy that all of a sudden I need to figure out where it goes. And that's then a new experience.
- [45:20]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yeah, I was crying this morning. I don't even really know why. I just felt. It just feels weird. It just feels weird. And I think part of it for me is like, you write a book and it's like my parents aren't here to see it. And the book is very much about my parents and grief and wrestling with all of that. And it's weird to have this accomplishment that is about them and they're not here to see it. I was telling someone earlier, actually, I think I was telling you this, that when I was a kid, whenever we had to do any kind of, like, go door to door and sell stuff, my parents would just, like, take the thing to their work and just, like, make their co workers buy it. I'm sure people listening are like, oh, yeah, my co worker does that with Girl Scout cookies, and it's annoying as hell. Those are my parents, and I know that they would be like, can we just buy a million copies? Obviously that is the wrong thing to do. And, like, it doesn't even work if that's how you do it. But I know that my parents, their first thing they would say was like, let's just buy a million copies. How could. How can we buy a million copies to make this thing a bestseller?
- [46:19]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, you know, I. I had the opportunity to meet your parents, and they were both really tremendous people, and I think they would be so proud of you for writing this book. And I can only imagine how much it sucks to not be able to hear them say that. But regardless of whether you get to, like, hear and feel. Feel their. Their praise, you know that you have done something that they would be very proud of. And I think that's really the. The important thing, right? Like, as we age and our parents are with us for a while, until all of a sudden they're not. Are we continuing to take what they taught us and. And lead the lives that they would have wanted us to lead? And I think, you know, that they would be so proud of you for having written this book.
- [47:06]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
I appreciate that. And as I was writing, writing anything, putting anything out into the world is hard. But something about writing a book really inflamed a lot of my self esteem and imposter syndrome stuff. And I really looked back. I actually have saved all my emails with my dad because we emailed quite a bit and then were in correspondence quite a bit. And something about my dad was that he was that parent who everything I did was so amazing. I would send him when I was working at msnbc. Part of my job sometimes would be to write these like, very low lift listicles, the kind of thing that AI would probably, is probably doing in newsrooms now where there's like a sentence of my, like a sentence introduction and then everything else is a collection of tweets. So very little writing. And he would say, oh my God, brilliant. You're such a good writer. You're such a good writer. Everything I. And in writing the book, I really was just like hyper aware of. I mean, I don't think I'd be a creative professional if I did not have that kind of parent. The kind of parent who, even if they don't necessarily understand what it is that you do, is just your cheerleader on your side, in your corner, everything you do. Oh, so great. So great. Keep it up, keep it up, keep it up. I got to have decades of that voice in my head, in my ear. And so I guess I'm grateful that through this process that was quite trying I had that I. That, you know, because you really doubt yourself a lot. And like, you need to have the voices in your head that are like, keep it up, keep it up, keep it up. And I'm really lucky that my dad, like, implanted that I have. I had his voice in my head telling me, keep going, keep going, keep going. And so thank you for saying that. On the flip side, over the weekend, I went for a walk around my neighborhood and I bumped into, completely randomly, a professor from my grad school who at the time was like a professor that I really, I really loved his class. Like, it was a big. He was a impactful professor to me. And I thought, this is kismet. I'm supposed to tell this professor about my book because I am at the phase where I can start telling people. And here is somebody who was impactful in my. In my life, Patel. And the first thing that he said, and I don't. I'm not like, it's. It is what it is. But he said, oh, you have a book deal, You've written a book. I have a novel that I have been trying to get Published, but no one's taking it because I'm too white, too old, too male. And I was like, oh, he fixed. The reason that I got this book deal is because I'm a black woman.
- [49:43]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
What a terrible thing to say to you. What a bitter old man. Damn.
- [49:47]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
No, I took it on the chin. Like, I don't want to say too much because he might reveal who he is.
- [49:52]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
I'm pretty sure he's not listening to this podcast.
- [49:54]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
He's definitely not listening for sure. Is not listening. But I guess what I'm saying is that it probably is hard to watch a new generation take up space and get opportunities. And it goes back to what we said in the news roundup about how or in this dynamic where for a certain population of white men, especially if you want something and you don't get it, it's a very convenient scapegoat to be. Oh, the reason you're not getting it is because of black people or women. Right. That, oh, if you don't get that job, it's because a black person probably got it and they're under qualified. If you don't get that book deal, it's because there's too many black folks and women in publishing. My problematic fave, Joyce Carol Oates, she. That is an attitude that she believes. So it was fine. I just thought it was funny that the first person that I told about this book, the first, like, person that's not in my inner circle, had that reaction that we've talked about on the podcast so often.
- [50:52]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
It is, yeah. I'm so curious what other reactions we're gonna get to this. So I think it comes out in July, right? July 14th, Bastille Day. Yes.
- [51:03]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
It comes out on July 14th, 2026. Great. It's, it's, It'll be a fun beach. Listen, it's not, it's not too heavy of a book, I promise. This is where I have to give the. The plea, which is that pre orders, I have come to learn are really, really important. So, yes, you can get it in July. Would love to have you order it anytime, all of that, but I really want this book to be successful. I know times are tough, so I'm not going to say, like, you know, do what you got to do. I know times are, we're all, we're all feeling economic crunches and so spending money on pleasure. Listens. I get that's a big ask. If you can pre order it, it would mean the fucking world to me. Apparently, pre orders are the thing you can go to love at first prompt AI and it'll take you right to the place to pre order. If you do pre order and you send us a screenshot of your pre order, you can email it to us@hello, tangledo.com. you can tag it. Tag us on social media at Bridget Mariendc on Blue sky at. There are no girls on the Internet, all the social stuff. If you find a way to get the fact that you've pre ordered to us, we will send you a sticker. I will personally write you a thank you card and mail it to you. I guess some people already got stickers. You know what? If you already got us, maybe we'll do magnets. We've got magnets. Is that too much shipping? I don't know. We'll figure it out. We'll send you something.
- [52:23]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
It'll be stickers.
- [52:24]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Okay?
- [52:25]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Magnets are pretty pricey. We can't just be giving out magnets.
- [52:28]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
We have a bunch of magnets. No. Okay, you don't need to get into it now. We'll send you a sticker. We'll send you a sticker.
- [52:33]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
If people already got a sticker, they should let us know that and we'll send them something else.
- [52:38]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yes, you tell me what you want. I've got, I don't know.
- [52:43]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Brisha will come to your house and cook you dinner. Please pre order the book.
- [52:47]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
I feel like that would be a, like, detriment. It's like, oh, it's like a threat. Like if you don't order this book, we're just coming to your house to make you dinner. You better order this book.
- [52:56]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
We're just going to come to your house and order some really good stuff.
- [52:59]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
There we go. There we go. I'll get, I'll get the good sushi from Wegmans.
- [53:03]
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- [53:04]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
You are a good cook, though. Don't sell yourself short.
- [53:06]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
I am a good cook. I am a good cook. I like to. So are you. We, we both. That's something that we share. So yes, please pre order it, tell a friend, share it. This is a little out of my comfort zone because I'm not, I, I'm even fighting the inclination to be like, buy it or don't. But I, I, you know, I do want people to buy it. I think it might be a little bit of a growth edge for me to self promote as much as I have gleaned that you're meant to be doing and need to be doing when you have a book out. If y' all catch me downplaying it. Please hold me accountable. And it's funny because obviously, like, you tell all your friends, like, girl, own your accomplishment. Brag on yourself, take up space. But then when it comes to yourself, sometimes there's like an inclination to avoid self promotion. And if anybody has tips on navigating this, I would love to hear them. Let's see, what else? Oh, I should mention there are no ads. So it. Once you. If you, if you get the audiobook, you'll get to hear just content, no ads, which I know, I love.
- [54:09]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah, that's a good point. There are not a lot of great ways to get ad free, Bridget, content at the moment, but this might be the only one. Right? And it's. It's pretty long, I think. We actually haven't sat down to record all of it yet. It's all written, but we estimated it out and it's going to be like 8 to 10 hours, something like that.
- [54:28]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
I think Simon and Schuster said six hours.
- [54:30]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
We'll see. Sounds a little short to me.
- [54:32]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Yeah, so it's. It's like getting six to 10 episodes of the podcast ad free. Think of it that way. So go to loveatfirstprompt. AI Please pre order. It would mean the world to me if this book performs well. It would really open up a lot of doors to be able to continue to tell the kinds of stories that I love telling here on the podcast. I cannot thank you all enough for listening and really, I mean, it's really the listeners who made this opportunity possible for me. So I cannot thank you enough for continuing to rock with us. It means the world.
- [55:03]
Mike (Co-author and Producer)
Yeah. Just to underscore that, I mean, when Simon and Schuster reached out, a big part of why they were doing so was because they knew about the show and the listeners. And yeah, like you said, this would not have been possible without the listeners of this podcast demonstrating that they want to hear what you have to say.
- [55:23]
Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
Well, I am so grateful. I want to hear what all of you have to say. Let me know in the comments. Yeah, thanks so much for listening. Please pre order the book. I love you all. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi. You can reach us@helloangodi.com youm can also find transcripts for today's episode@tangodi.com There are no girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer, Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:22]
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- [56:37]
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Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
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Bridget Todd (Host and Co-author)
this
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