← There Are No Girls on the Internet
There Are No Girls on the Internet
Lindy West Told Us Everything in Adult Braces. Was It a Mistake?
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Bridget Todd
There Are no Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are no Girls on the Internet. You might know Lindy west from the Internet. She's the author of Shrill, the hit 2016 memoir about being a fat woman in America that became a cultural phenomenon, a Hulu series, and one of the defining feminist books of the decade. Shrill ended on a really happy note for Lindy. Lindy finding her voice and meeting and marrying Aham, the love of her life. Lindy's newest book, Adult Braces, picks up where Shrill left off, and it turns out that Shrill's happy ending was a little bit more complicated than previously advertised. Adult Braces reveals that her husband Naham presented Lindy with an ultimatum. Their marriage needed to be open or he was gone. So Lindy goes on a road trip across America and ultimately decides to stay married and embrace polyamory. She now lives in her family cabin with her husband and one of his previously secret girlfriends, named Roya. After a viral New York Times Modern Love interview, Lindy's marriage became something of
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Ashley Rae
a lightning rod for a lot of different people. Conservatives, feminists, people inside the poly community,
- [04:16]
Bridget Todd
and for a lot of folks who
- [04:17]
Ashley Rae
came of age reading feminist confessional writing
- [04:20]
Bridget Todd
on the Internet in the 2010s, which, if you're listening to this podcast, might be you. And when Aham sent an email to a Slate writer who had given his wife a perfectly fair review, everything got even louder. I talked to writer and comedian Ashley Rae. Ashley wrote a piece for Harper's about the book called Lindy west and the Trap of Perfect Polyamory. Ashley has been poly for 14 years. We talked about the book, the discourse, and what all of it says about feminist writing, parasocial fandom, and whether the personal essay industrial complex of the 2010s has finally run its course.
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Ashley Rae
Ashley Ray of the substack Deep Trouble thank you for being here.
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Oh, thank you for having me. I'm such a fan of the pod. I'm so happy to be back.
- [05:13]
I want to say up top, this might be a little bit of a different episode. Usually when I have somebody with expertise like yourself, I'm like interviewing them about something to get their thoughts on something really. I have been reading about the Lindy west book for the last week. I've been listening to podcasts about it, reading articles about it, and I'm just to the point where my friends are like, find someone else to talk about this with. And I just want to talk about it on the podcast. And that's why you're here?
- [05:42]
Yeah, I same my even like my. My 72 year old mom, I've just been like, look, you don't know Lindy West. And she's just like, is this girl your friend? And I'm like, no, no, she just wrote a book. But you need to hear every detail. It's interesting how the book, Lindy, the relationship has taken over the Internet. Every platform, threads, Twitter, blue sky, everyone is talking about it. I don't think substack, obviously, I don't think I've seen just sort of like a monoculture moment like this around a book in a long time. So I think that's part of what's exciting about this is that, you know, as literary people, we love some lit drama and it's full of it. You know, her husband's sister is also a famous writer. They're in communication with all these other writers. It went from just being a book to like her husband sending emails to another very gifted author. And it just became like a huge thing that has spiraled out of control. And now there are people saying that this is a signal that millennial feminism is dead. Other people who are like, it's the end of white feminism. It's just become such a thing that means so much to so many people. And at the center of it, it's like, it's just a book about a woman finding something she didn't think she'd like and realizing she kind of liked it, like, and. And also she's very honest about it not being perfect in some ways. But then there are these frustrating ways where she still sort of pushes herself in life in the narrative as happy and very progressive and as, you know, basically a happy ending and a got you moment for the trolls and haters to say, you know, you might think I don't deserve this happy ending and this is me settling, but it's not. And then it's also her trying to placate fans because she came up at this like 2010 writer era, where, you know, you were a writer and a hero to your fans and readers. They felt like you owed them something. And as a leader in the body positivity, movement. And she writes about this. You know, she felt people would come to her and say, I realized I could love myself because of you. I could, I could have what I wanted because of, you know, and when she would lose weight, people would get upset with her. So that becomes a part of the expectations of the relationship where she has to have a happy ending with her husband. Aham. Because if she doesn't, she's letting these people down. They won't know that they can have a happy ending. And so that's why shrill ends with such a happy ending and adult braces goes, actually, that was all a lie. I thought you all needed a happy ending. But now I'm not lying when I give you a happy ending. Now I'm telling. And it's kind of like, girl, I think you might be lying to give us the happy ending again. So it's just because of all of this has taken off in so many directions. And to Lindy West's credit, it takes talented writing, talented storytelling to get people this engaged and involved about a polyamorous relationship from Seattle. How is that even surprising?
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It really is a throwback to a certain kind of, at least for me, low stakes Internet writer culture drama that we haven't really had a lot of that in the last few years. Yeah.
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In a while, you know, I think a lot of us have smartened up. I think when Lindy came up, it was the time of the bleed on the Internet and make a name for yourself era where you wrote a piece for Jezebel or whatever, sharing your deepest whoops, sexual, deepest, darkest shame. And that was a way to talk about issues that were really relevant. You know, that's not to say that what Lindy was writing about, you know, wasn't relevant, but it was something that encouraged a parasocial readership. Right. It's like everyone should be able to write about their life, pull from their life, write memoir. But it extending onto social media in a new way than, you know, ever before. Really. It extending onto social media. It extending, you know, into the way people understand and represent their politics. Right. It's like, do you support Lindy West? You can't just be a fan. It's like, oh, but are you a feminist? If you don't like Lindy west, like, it becomes more. And I think just that coming of age of that time as a writer, it seemed like that sucked. I'm a little younger than her. To me, I was like, oh, gosh, I don't want to have to like owe a bunch of fans Something because they think that my body is their property. Because they, like, read a book I wrote. You know, I kind of was able to learn from that. So I think my generation, you know, we weren't as willing to write for digital blogs like Exo Jane and Jezebel just to kind of have that moment. So when we see such naked kind of sharing, like we are saying in adult braces, it does feel like a throwback to that. I think people are kind of shocked. She is so just raw with a lot in it. Like, she is talking about the negatives, ahem, cheating not just on her, but on their other partner. In the middle of the book, she reveals that actually he was seeing two other women, not just one. And, you know, so it is written in a way where we're not just supposed to be like, oh, this is great. She was unquestioning and supportive the whole time. We are going on a very dark journey with Lindy. So I think that's kind of, you know, making people go, whoa, this. This writer is being so real. But also, this means that feminism of the 2010s was a lie. And it's just like, okay, it doesn't have to mean all of that. Let's all just take a breath. Yeah.
- [11:24]
Yeah. I'm really glad that you mentioned the sort of age that you came of age, and because I very much came of age in the Lindy west streets. You know, I think I kind of came of age as a feminist in that very particular moment in the 2010s. And I subsequently. I do have a deep reverence for Lindy West's writing because back then, that did have cultural cachet and cultural capital and political capital. I remember the era of Exo Jane. They used to call it the personal essay industrial complex.
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I remember a very.
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A very specific personal essay that somebody wrote about a hairball that got stuck in their vagina. Being the. Being the specific essay where folks were like, we've hit peak.
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Personal essay, personal essay. There's nothing else we can do here.
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I was writing on the Internet in that. In those days, and you're so right that the expectation was you would write something. And I was never as successful as Lindy west, obviously. But, like, the expectation was that you wanted to be a feminist voice online. You would write something incredibly personal about your body, your sex life, your upbringing, these personal parts of yourself. You would put it on a blog like Exo Jane. You would. Maybe you would get $50 for writing that. Like, the compensation was very low. But there was this Feeling that maybe that could turn into a book deal or a show. You could build up your. Your cultural cachet. And I just kind of wonder if the moment. If that moment has come and passed.
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I think absolutely, we're more critical.
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We're more skeptical. I think that we're.
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I think.
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I don't want to say oversharing, but I think that level of,
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like, let like.
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Like, opening up like that on the page. I think folks are a lot less forgiving, and I think that. That we equate that a lot less with honest writing. Back in the 2010s, we just didn't have a lot of women who were writing that way. So if you wrote openly and honestly about your body, your sex life, all of this, it automatically gave it a kind of gravitas that I think we're. I think is like, the culture has moved a little bit past that.
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Yeah. What do you think about we're now? Absolutely. Where now it's like, it isn't shocking or surprising to hear a woman talk about farting and poop. It's like, yeah, okay.
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It's.
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Yeah, it's not that up to date. And that is a kind of. The issue with adult braces is that it does still feel like it's stuck in that 2010s era. You know, I would say the biggest sign we've all moved on is, you know, if the Cut were to ask me to write a personal essay today, I would go, why do you want to destroy my life? I would be like, what? I mean, like, no, no, this is a trap. Like, it's so clear now that that is done to feed the attention economy. And I think younger people who have grown up in that economy who see every part of their lives, you know, recorded, put online, where they're just afraid to even go out because if they do something and someone else notices it, they. They could end up as a theme in a Twitter thread or something. And they don't even know that, like, they're a character of the day on online. And I think because of that, people are so much more careful with their privacy. And so I think this book does feel like it's still stuck in that 2010s era where it wants to be. Like. It wants to present itself as very raw, open, honest. But really, we all feel it in that way where it's presenting a narrative right, where it's like, this isn't raw, open, honest. This isn't something where, like, a wife is on. So on TikTok telling the story tale of, like, how her marriage broke down. This is a narrative that you've crafted of how you're viewing this because you want to sell that to your fans. You want to sell and I told you so to your trolls, and you want to, again, like, shrills, present a story. You know, this could turn into a book or this could turn a movie. This could turn into a TV show. We're already like, what's the next book gonna be? Is it gonna be her divorce? And in an interview with Slate, she says, you know, I need this book to. To, like, float us for a while. So I think now the nakedness of that being for, you know, like you said, the just sort of cultural attention to get your name out there, I think now that is so raw, like, just so clear that people can't relate to it in a way where it's like, oh, this is raw honesty. Like, oh, you know, I am learning something about her. It just feels just kind of like a gimmick of it, you know, even with the polyamory, even again, with her talking about sort of body issues in the book, it all just kind of feels a bit gimmicky because it is so wrapped up in her husband. And it's like, why is this person who was sort of upheld as a feminist writer, the 2010s telling us that, you know, actually she was able to fix her body issues by starting a sub dom relationship with her husband. That is a whole other story. You know, I. I think people are also getting lost in the polyamory of it all. There's so much more that, you know, just feels very out of touch with. Sort of where I think younger feminists are today, where a lot of those narratives that Lyndy hears in her head don't really resonate for them.
- [16:55]
Bridget Todd
Let's take a quick break.
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Jacob Goldstein
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- [20:09]
Bridget Todd
At our back
- [20:12]
Ashley Rae
if you have not read the book or read anything about it from listening to us talk, you might think that the entirety of the book is about her marriage and like her journey to embracing polyamory and all of that. But her book there's so much more in the book. Right. It's about her relationship to her body. It's also very much a travelogue.
- [20:30]
Yeah. And very much about her parents. You know, I. I'll give a quick little summary, but the book starts in the aftermath of where Shrill left us, basically shril us.
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Bethenny Frankel
She.
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Ashley Rae
She has this big, happy, beautiful, fat wedding. Everyone is happy. The saddest thing is, you know, her dad has just died, but at least this is her new life now. And then adult braces starts with. So actually that was all a facade. After my father passed, that was why Aham came back to my life, because, you know, he saw that I was so depressed and decided we could be back together, but only if we can have an open relationship and open marriage. And it is basically an ultimatum that. That Ahan presents. It is basically, if you want me back and you want to get married, it has to be an open marriage. His explanation is that monogamy, not marriage, because they do get married, monogamy is akin to slavery and ownership. And that is why he cannot be monogamous because it is basically her white ownership of his body. Marriage is fine as long as the. On paper, I can, like, claim you on my taxes or something. But. But actual monogamy within that marriage is slavery. And Lindy basically goes, I'm white and I'm codependent, so I just don't get it. But he's so smart and right. And it's just, you know, from there they decide to do it. But her stance is don't ask, don't tell. Like, I don't want to know anything. But she does lay out rules. She's like, don't sleep with anyone we know. Don't sleep with anyone in our community. Don't see anyone multiple times. You know, basically don't have a girlfriend if it's just like one night stands, whatever. I don't care and I don't want to hear about it. And then one day she gets a text from a fan that's like, hey, I saw your husband making out with someone at a bar. And that's when she realizes, like, oh, my husband has an entire girlfriend in Portland. And that becomes a whole thing where he's like, I don't care if you're unhappy with it. I'm gonna go to Portland once a month and be with this person. In the process of that, Lindy also finds out that he's been seeing a girl in their neighborhood who they all know, which totally breaks the rules. She's younger. Just every rule that. And at this point, Lindy's like, you've broken every rule. I have every right to leave you. And she decides to go on a road trip. And this is really the travelogue part of the book. And which I think is the strongest part of the book. I really wish. Yeah, I really wish so much more of it was just, like, the insights into her travels. I love even just the part when she transcribes, like, her thoughts as she's just, like, driving and talking into a microphone. And she rents a van, does, like, the whole van life thing, and she decides to drive from Seattle to Kokomo, Florida. And this is sort of the spark of the whole journey and travel and road trip, but also, I think is the perfect sort of metaphor for the entire book's issue. So at the start, she goes, I was always obsessed with the, you know, the Beach Boy song. Love it. And that's when I decided I need to have my own Kokomo moment. I need to escape and get away, you know, find myself. I'm gonna go to Kokomo. And she gets a, you know, map out and gets online and is, like, driving to Kokomo, Florida. And what does she discover? It's not real Kokomo, Florida, which I like. I knew that. I feel like any. Like, most people know that. But in the book, it's like she has no. She's like, oh, my gosh, another letdown in my life. But she goes, you know what? Forget it. I'll just drive to the Keys. I'm just gonna drive, you know, the four keys. It'll still be beautiful. And that' what she ends up doing. But then on the drive back, she goes, on my way back to Seattle, I'm gonna go visit my friends in Michigan. Samantha Irby and her wife, who also an amazing writer. Oh, my God, yes. Who I would say, actually, as everyone is kind of reliving the Cindy or the Lindy west stuff, I'm like, actually, I came up on Samantha Irby at that time.
- [24:43]
Oh, yeah. I feel like Samantha Irby. Samantha, in the book, I feel like, is like the person that I identify with the most.
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The most.
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I was.
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I was like, samantha Irby is the
- [24:52]
Bethenny Frankel
hero of the book.
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Ashley Rae
And maybe all have a friend like that. Like, you learn the most about Lindy through Sam, which will. But she decides, I'm gonna go up to Michigan and see Sam. And on the way, she misses an exit and gets turned around in Indianapolis. And suddenly she sees a sign for Kokomo, Indiana, and she says, I Swear on Mike Davis's life, the guy from Beach Boys. I swear to God, I had no idea Kokomo, Indiana, was a thing. This was just kismet. This was magic. Like, wow. Here in the most unexpected place, I find what I was really looking for. Whoa. But then she's also like, I found out the town, like, has a racist history, so, like, things still are racist. And the thing is, though, like, you just told it. You did research and found out Kokomo wasn't real. And in any research that's talking about, they all mention Kokomo, Indiana. Like, on the Wikipedia page for the song, it's like, the only Koko. It's Kokomo, Indiana. Like, there's no way you didn't know Kokomo, Indiana wasn't real. But it's a pretty story, right? To be like, I was on this road trip, and I just stumbled across it. It's beautiful narrative. It's like when you're writing the TV show, you're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Because just saying, yeah, I saw there was a Kokomo, Indiana, and I went, that's kind of funny. I'll stop by. It's on the way to go see my friend isn't interesting, right? It's just kind of like, yeah, you. You knew it was there, so you went that way. Because there's no reason to go through Michigan if you're going to Seattle from. You know, just say you wanted to go see Coco. It's fine. But instead, it has to be dressed up in this really beautiful, like, fairy tale moment. And that is really the issue with the book is that she's still dressing up everything and her life into this beautiful narrative. And it feels like it's not so much, even for her own sake, because throughout the book, she questions herself, right? Like, there's parts where she's like, am I just forcing myself into this throuple because I feel like I'm losing my husband and this is the only way to keep him? And then she'll just kind of be like, but anyway, I saw a stand to buy some honey, honey. Isn't that crazy? And she doesn't keep asking the question. She lets it go. So I see a lot of people pushing back and saying, you know, they're criticizing her because people don't want to believe a woman could make this choice. Or, you know, they don't want to believe a woman could actually be into polyamory. But people are just asking the questions that Lindy's asking in the book. You know they're having the same doubt she has in the book. And it's just that the book doesn't give a satisfying answer. It just sort of in its last few pages goes. And it just so happens I also love my husband's girlfriend and he has great taste in women. And she's really hot and thin and she likes me, so that's great. And now we're all happy because she helps me manage our calendar and pay our bills and he cooks sometimes and gets wood. And so, you know, to people who've read her writing, it doesn't sound so much like a happy ending. For people who are non monogamous, it's a little problematic and gets into issues of unicorns and women who use polyamory basically to set up like a liberal polygamous institution where it's a bunch of women working together to handle a man's needs, but they're doing it in a liberal way. Which is another big part of the book that some people have issue with is that for her it is embracing Roy in this throuple is her saying, I am a more liberal person. I, you know, am able to understand that monogamy is racist. And if you, the rest of the world could understand and open up their minds to things like this, like falling in love with their husband's girlfriend, maybe we wouldn't have so much hate. Maybe we wouldn't have conservatives. She drives through a lot of conservative places where she's like, really just assuming everyone is racist. It's a little odd. Like she, you know, meets people and she's like, oh, maybe if they could understand non monogamy they wouldn't be so close minded. But it's like, girl, there's that, there's. Those conservatives are probably swingers who are having more threesomes than you. Like you're in Florida talking about these conservatives and it's like those people are probably like leaving the Trump rally to have sex. Like it doesn't matter. Being ethically non monogamous does not make you liberal. Like the Tiger King was polyamorous. Like, but the book doesn't want to get into that. The book really wants you to believe, like what we've created here is a liberal leftist ideal relationship. Other people should consider this kind of lifestyle because it makes you more socially morally correct. That is a thread of the book is, you know, if the world were to embrace what I'm doing here, everyone would be happy. And yeah, it just feels very out of touch because it's like, no, the people do it doesn't matter. And another example in the book, and I wrote a piece for Harper's about this and mentioned this part, but she is in Idaho or Montana, I believe, and she stops to buy honey from a guy who is named Fat Daddy. He, you know, makes his own honey, sells it by the side of the road. He's with his friend, and she buys some, and then she notices they have Second Amendment hats on. And she's like, oh, no. Like, I've just supported conservative honey. Like, they have Second Amendment hats on. I bet that they're like pro life, and they're going to use my money to go make signs for the pro life clinic. And if only Fat Daddy could focus on his honey and be a nice honey man, he wouldn't need to be a conservative who loves Trump. And if he could just, you know, why can't people do that? Why can't they just focus on their hobbies instead of being haters? And it's like, well, girl, that man is focused on his honey. You just bought his honey. You have the honey. How much more focused do you want him to be on his honey? He makes it, he sells it. He puts a label on the honey. He's selling his honey. He is a nice honey man. Like you're saying it just isn't working out the way you want it because it doesn't actually work that way. You know, he can be a nice B man and be a conservative. And for all you know, Fat Daddy is a gay, polyamorous libertarian. Like, that's how the world is now. But Lindy sees it in a very black and white way in adult braces, where it's like, no, you either have to be conservative, monogamous Christian, or radical liberal who is seeking progressive approval by being in a throttle. And, you know, I think that at the heart of it is another issue people sort of take with the book.
- [31:37]
You wrote a phenomenal piece in Harper's that we'll put in the show notes
- [31:40]
Bridget Todd
called Lindy west and the Trap of Perfect Polyamory.
- [31:43]
Ashley Rae
And you are a polyamorous person yourself. I would say I've been an open thing, but I have dabbled in polyamory myself. And one of the points that you make that you've just sort of summarized is that I think. I don't think the book is trying to be like a how to guide of how one should do polyamory. And everybody's relationships are always messy and like, you know, whatever kind of structure you're trying to do. But I do think There is the thread that you called out of practicing polyamory being inherently more progressive than other kinds of relationships. And I have come along many an ethical, ethically non monogamous person who I would not describe as altruistic or moral or progressive. I just watched the manosphere documentary where all of the different men in that documentary talk about how ethically they're anonymous type of relationship.
- [32:34]
Yeah.
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They're like, oh, our relationship is one side of poly where my the man
- [32:39]
can date so many people and the girl can't. And there are so many, even liberals, who would look at that doc and say, I hate that documentary, who go, well, yeah, I am in a dynamic where, like, I date my husband's girlfriend and we date each other and I date my husband, and yes, my husband dates both of us and he can go date other women, but we're only allowed to date women. And they can justify it somehow, but they separate themselves from those manosphere guys. And to me, it's like, look, I'm polyamorous, okay? It sucks. It sucks. It sucks that I have something in common with those guys, but I do. It sucks that I have something in common with the Tiger King, but I do. Okay. For some reason, we chose a similar relationship style. And if you're gonna be polyamorous, I think you have to start there. You can't start from a place of, I'm choosing this because I want to be more moral or I am solving racism in my relationship if I open it up. If you do that, you're really more of a polygamous. You're basically kind of in line with Mormons. Or not Mormons, but fundamentalists, you know, who say we have to have a plural marriage because it makes us more religious, it makes us closer to God. To me, that's when the line starts blurring. You know, you just have to look at polyamory as a different relationship style than monogamy. That has to be it. And if from there you go, oh, okay, I still want to do it, great. Good place to start. But reading Adult Braces, it doesn't feel like that's where Lindy is. It feels like she wants to do it because her husband's telling her, if you don't want to be racist, you gotta let me have an open relationship. And she's like, it does seem like if I want to be accepted in progressive circles, that's what I have to agree to. And so. Okay. And yeah,
- [34:33]
Bridget Todd
let's take a quick break.
- [34:40]
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- [35:10]
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- [37:48]
Bridget Todd
And we're back. Ashley and I are both black women who have both been in polyamorous relationships.
- [37:55]
Ashley Rae
And there's just something about the racial
- [37:57]
Bridget Todd
and power dynamics at play. When someone says that being polyamorous is less aligned with white supremacy than other relationship structures, that just makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm honestly not even sure what exactly it is.
- [38:12]
Ashley Rae
I want to double tap on that a little bit. Lindy's husband is a person of color. Lindy is white. I really deeply bristled at the bit where Aham tells her that because she's white, she or Picassee doesn't tell her that. She believes that because she is white, she might not be as attuned as he is to this dynamic where she might want to be owning a person of color. It may be grounded in white supremacy in ways that she's not really able to see. Ergo, she should, you know, get on board with this way of thinking. I can't even articulate why, but I found that deeply. Like, I. Why do I hate that so much?
- [38:56]
What's.
- [38:56]
What's going on?
- [38:57]
Because you should hate that so much. Because it's just. You should hate. It's textbook manipulation. That makes no sense. There's so many things that play in that dynamic that Lindy sort of addresses in being like, I can't fully understand because he's a person of color. Like, if you look sort of into his storytelling, he also, this is another thing we will talk about. He is a very, very successful man. He wants you to know that he has. He's his own performer and a comedian, and he is very successful. And in a lot of his work, he talks about how the separation from his Nigerian father has given him identity issues. He doesn't, you know, he grew up with his white mother. He struggles with his race. So having this wife who is like, re instilling him as a black man, you can tell benefits both of them. So they're both playing into this dynamic where he's like, oh, yes, I understand blackness. You make me feel that way. And so when I say monogamy is basically slavery, you want to agree with me. Because you have to believe that, you know, our relationship is this positive dynamic of, like, politics and whatever. And really, you know, your relationship should be about your own personal needs and desires. Like you. Your personal interrelationship cannot fix racism, so don't date for that reason. That's how you'll end up with a guy who's like, oh, sorry, you wanted to only sleep with me in our marriage. Are you a slave owner?
- [40:38]
Ashley, if I had a nickel for every CIS het man who told me, every white CIS het man who told me that we should get together because it would be a good, A good thing for society if we had sex or may a mixed race baby, I would only have like three nickels. But that, that's.
- [40:56]
That's too many. That's too many nickels. It's, you know, and obviously there are normal interracial couples and relationships. I have dated interracially. Obviously there's people who are normal about it, but there are people who do it because they see it as this, like, political status that says, look at me, I'm so progressive. And using your relationship that way is dangerous. And I think at its core, Adult Braces is the story of that. It's the danger of using your relationship as part of your identity politics and the failure of identity politics when you're also trying to sell your identity to fans because it makes you money. And so it is this weird circle of, you know, Lindy and her partners saying, stop talking about us. Stop talking about us, but please talk about us. Please talk about us. Read the book, but only in the way that we want you to talk about us. And it just all kind of feeds into itself.
- [41:54]
So you mentioned what I feel like is a little bit of the elephant in the room, which is what, what, what kind of pushed this from just something I was thinking about, just a bug in my brain to I need to talk to someone about this immediately or I will pop the email.
- [42:09]
The email? Yes.
- [42:10]
You mentioned, Aham, Lindy's partner.
- [42:13]
Yes.
- [42:13]
So one of the earliest profiles of this book was by this phenomenal Slate writer, Sachi Cole, Memoirist herself wrote a book about her marriage and that in her book that her marriage ends in divorce. I thought the piece was a very fair look at Lindy, Lindy's work, the book, all of that.
- [42:33]
And just also we'll say Sachi's also a documentarian. So she made a documentary about Girls Gone Wild for Peacock that is based on her reporting. Yeah, it's based on her reporting that she did for Want to say that was buzzfeed, but the piece she did on that guy was the basis for that. But I just say that to say she's very good at presenting an even picture, right? Like, she isn't. She didn't come there to destroy them. And I thought it was actually very polite. Like, I was like, dang, somebody. Maybe polyamorous would have gone a bit harder and asked some harder questions. But I was like, it's not about that. It really is about Lindy. Where Lindy's at right now in her life and what this book tour means to her in this book means. And I thought it was a great piece. It isn't really about the throuple. It's not really about Roy and Aham. It briefly mentions them. It says that the weekend she goes to do the interview, Royan Aham are in Boston working on a joint project that's about all of it. All it says about them, it quotes them on the relationship where they, you know, basically like, we love Lindy, we support her so much, and that's all it says, nothing really negative. I'd say maybe the most negative thing in the piece is when she quotes Lindy saying, I need this book to float us for a while. You know, things are getting scary and I have to take care of my family. And that's really the only kind of like, oh, you know, but nothing negative. But, you know, the profile comes out, the book comes out, it becomes a bit of a thing people are talking about. And honestly, I feel like had this email not happened, we wouldn't still be talking about it. It. But then Sachi does an interview on, in case you missed it, Slate's podcast and reveals that after the profile came out, Aham, Roya and Lindy all emailed her. Very, very angry about this. Again, polite, nice profile.
- [44:27]
Bridget Todd
You have got to hear the email that Aham sent the Slate writer who profiled Lindy. So here it is. This was such a shitty thing to do, Sachi. You intentionally skewed this story to fit your own bitter narrative. You wasted my time and all of our time to write an article that was going to be the same no matter what we said. You absolutely dehumanized me and intentionally diminished my personhood and career. Roya and I were on a shared project in Boston. However you worded it, I was performing four shows at the Paramount and. And Roya is my producer. I am a person with a life and a great career and a complicated life, and you boiled me down to a cheater who was on A school project, making a diorama or some shit
- [45:14]
Ashley Rae
because you are mad about your life. You barely wrote about the book.
- [45:18]
Bridget Todd
You just wrote rage bait articles specifically
- [45:20]
Ashley Rae
designed to direct hate toward me. You are a shitty fucking person.
- [45:24]
Bridget Todd
You're a bitter, untalented, mean girl and
- [45:27]
Ashley Rae
you should absolutely be ashamed of yourself. You fucking suck.
- [45:32]
Bridget Todd
When Slate reached out for comment, Aham said yes. The email had been a typo and
- [45:38]
Ashley Rae
what he had meant to say was free Palestine.
- [45:43]
She reads Aham's email out loud. The whole thing, it is the stereotype of a narcissistic, egotistical man who is angry that his wife is getting more attention than him. In a profile about her, it calls Sachi bitter. Basically, like, because she's divorced and jealous.
- [46:03]
Basically.
- [46:04]
Everything that men said to Lindy when she was coming up that would make Lindy go, that's misogyny, he says to this woman. And then CC's Lindy, Roya and Loya, his girlfriend's on this email. Roya sends an email to Sachi. CC's her part, you know, the foreigners, and hers is, I guess, the longest one. But Sachi doesn't read it. But, girl, put that out there. Put, put all the. Publish, publish those emails that we want the emails. But she does tell us that Roya basically accuses her of being racist, saying that Sachi needs therapy, that nobody reads Slate anyway. And it's, you know, a little bitter and angry and at times kind of fair and polite. And then Lindy also sends an email that is polite, but is basically like, you know, you didn't really make Aham look great. Like, you should have made him look better. And there's one quote in the, in the article where Sachi goes or where Lindy goes. I am not trying to do PR for Aham. Well, I'm always trying to do PR for Aham. And it's like, that's the issue is like, yeah, the book feels like PR for him. You don't even fully get into the details, the conversations that make you decide to stay with him. That's the issue. And now that we see, even from a polite piece like this, how much it hurt his ego. And you're telling us he helped you edit every line of this book? He had a say in the edit. It makes me wonder, like, how much did he make you take out? Because he wanted to look good, he wanted to look professional, you know, his biggest complaint to Saji is, I wasn't just working on a joint project with Roya. I was in Boston performing a show. That I wrote and Roy is my producer. And it's like, you're mad that she wasn't specific about the show. Like, it wasn't a profile on you, but it just shows you, like, maybe this is a dynamic where two women are managing a man's ego and that. That's the part. It just all kind of feels gross now when you see that email and you're like, how can someone be with someone who would be okay with this, who would not just immediately offer like, an apology and like an I'm so sorry, but actually would send another email basically supporting that? It's unthinkable to me. So now it's become this thing of, like, beyond just a book about polyamory or the failures of, like 2010's writing and stuff. It's like, wait a second, like, what does this say about, like, this mean girl identity politics era that, like, Lindy did push at the time where, yes, people were kind of like, mean to her, but, like, as her response was like, yeah, this is a witch. I'm a witch and I'm hunting you. And now she's still doing that. Like, she still has that energy with it where her and her partner, like, they're responding to trolls and they're just kind of like, well, you guys are racist. And it's like, no, we're not racist for asking the same questions you are. Or after he sends this email, they ask for a reply and his response is just, oh, you know what? My email was a typo. I meant to say free Palestine. And it's like, you, like, maybe in, like, in 2012, that would have been like, sassy. But now it's like how you can't send someone a hate email and then when they reply to be like, what? You can't be like, oh, what? Well, how about Palestine? There's bigger issues. No, you email me you had the problem. How are you gonna be like, maybe you should focus on things that matter. When it's like, you, you brought this up. But that's what they try to do. Like, you know, people pointed out that throughout the book, Roya, the girl girlfriend mostly feels like an empty figure. Like, she feels like an extension of Roya and Lyndy's ego. You know, Lindy only lets us know Roya in as much as Roya's attracted to her. That's all we know about her. We know that she helps to manage Aham's calendar. That's, you know, and that she's skinny and goth and hot. That's what really matters is she's skinny. She's skinny. She's skinny and goth and hot and people pointed that out and Lindy's response was how dare you. Roya is Persian and with the war happening in Iran, it is racist that you bring this up now and it's like, no, you can't. No, that's the type of like identity politics stuff that sure, maybe in 2014 people would have been like, oh yeah, okay, I assured I won't say anything, but it doesn't work anymore. And that's what feels just very out of touch with the whole thing. And I think that's why it's causing so much friction for conservatives, liberals just across the board. Everyone is is just upset with something with this book.
- [51:00]
Bridget Todd
More after a quick break.
- [51:07]
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- [51:37]
Jacob Goldstein
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- [52:53]
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- [54:14]
Bridget Todd
Let's get right back into it. Something that I've seen a little bit
- [54:19]
Ashley Rae
of online, and you kind of hit on it a moment ago, is that we're weirdos for even talking about this marriage. And that I really push back on. Because I do. Just like when I was publishing those essays about my personal life for 50 bucks a pop. I couldn't then say nobody gets to I want the money that comes with talking about my personal life, but nobody better talk about it. I don't want to see any chatter about what I've just told you. It doesn't work that way.
- [54:47]
It doesn't work that way. No criticism, no pushback. Unless it's glowing and positive. Then okay, then you can talk about it, but only if it's the way I like. And it's like, did she write the book for us to read it and talk about it or not? Are we supposed to read it and discuss it and think about it? Or am I just supposed to read it, take her word for it and let it go? Because I think one of those things is way more interesting.
- [55:11]
The host of the podcast the Stacks, which is all about books and reading, had this really great thread that was like, people might not like it, but actually publicly hating on books is good for the book industry, because people want to be involved in a medium that has a cultural conversation involved with it. If the whole thing is, you read this book and it's. It's problematic to put any kind of opinion about it, good, bad, or the other, into the world that you can't do that, then books as a medium are going to die out, because what
- [55:41]
is the point of reading a book
- [55:42]
you can't be part of a conversation on? So, like, yes, I listen. I would absolutely hate it if I wrote a book about my marriage, and that was really, like, raw and honest and all of those things that she's going for. And people chimed in with what they really thought. But that's why I don't write books like that, because I don't want to hear people. I would crumble and, like, not get out of bed. But then, like, a book like that out into the world, it's ultimately good for the medium to have a discussion around it.
- [56:08]
And it's also not like Lindy doesn't know that we know. She knows this. It's not her first rodeo. This isn't her first memoir where she's talked about her relationship. So she had to know they were going to get this kind of pushback. They had to know there was going to be backlash. And that's why there was another substack piece that came out that basically points out, you know, she knows this is good for books. It's good for book sales. She needs this book to float them. And it feels a bit manufactured. It feels a bit like. Like, did you just. Did you send an email and let Ahan. Because you knew that would push this, like, discourse into another week. Like, because there's no way you thought that's gonna make me look good or make him look good. So it's starting to feel a bit like, okay, yeah, we are. This is very much a push to sell a book, and it is working. Congratulations to her. She put out a piece that was like, in defense of it. Like, I'm allowed to be polyamorous. Where their line is, people are infantilizing me. They think that I'm brainwashed and being used, and it's just because no one trusts that I have my own agency. And that's kind of. That's how they're pushing back at it. And I think they know that is also going to make people angry, because that's not what people have an issue with. So it's just, again, them wanting to flame the fan. Them wanting to fan the flames because, yeah, it sells books. That's what they want. But I do think it's interesting that she's still on the book tour and a few people have been talking about the experience now because it started with Q&As. So she'd read from the book a Q and A, people could ask whatever. And then people who bought tickets got a notification that now Q and A questions had to be sent in beforehand. This was after Slate was published, after the book came out and there was that initial pushback. So then it was your questions have to be pre approved. Which other people were like, they didn't do that at the beginning. And then. So the Chicago one was the first date where pre approved questions people went and they didn't do a Q and A at all and they removed the Q and A from the rest of the book tour. So I'm so curious what questions people sent in because I don't think those went her way either. And apparently she's even stopped reading from the book. On the book tour at the Chicago date, it was her and Samantha Irby and they just kind of told stories. People said it was more like a standup show. So it's interesting that she does seem to sort of be like, well, I'm just not going to talk about the book then. Like, if it's upsetting people, I'm not going to talk about like, then let's just ignore the book. Don't ask me any questions about the book. Like, don't bring up the book. And it's just like, then why did you, do you want us to read it or not? Do you want us to talk about it or not? Like again, it's this like, you know, kind of day, weird dance of like, oh, no, don't look at me, but look at me. Look at me, but look at me. And it's, it's, it's just confusing. It's like, girl, do the book tour, ask the hard questions, go for that viral moment, like that's what you want to do. Just embrace it and do it. I could, bit by bit, page by page, book club style, go through this book and have a million things to say. Just, you know, it. I does, I do think that it does a great job of showing the, I don't, I don't want to say failures, but just the pressures of being a feminist or an icon or just a person of attention really at the time when Lindy west was. And you know, I also think Samantha Irby's involvement in the book presents two really interesting pictures Right. Because like you said, Samantha, we came up kind of reading. She also very much putting her life on the page. You know, in Chicago, she had a whole live show where she would tell, like, embarrassing sex stories and stuff. But now I would say leads a pretty private life. You know, still writes about herself, but has gone into TV private life. But I don't think she ever felt this burden of, like, I need to be everything for everyone. Maybe because as a black woman, she understood you can't do that at all. Whereas Lindy felt like, I have to be everything for fat women. I have to be everything for the body positivity movement. And she talks about that pressure, and it has led her to making personal relationship everything decisions based on that pressure and that vision of herself. So I think reading it from that view and not so much as, like, the messy Polyamory book is a lot more interesting.
- [60:39]
Definitely. It reminds me of. I read Issa Rae's first book, Misadventures of an Awkward Black Girl, which is very much like personal stories. I love the book. But then, and this was. The book came out right when her success was like, starting to sort of like, like take, like, I. I watched her web series, so I had always known who she was, but, like, right when it was starting to get, like, big. And then like years later, after she was already like a certified A list star, I saw her do a talk where she was like, looking back, I wish I had been a little bit more judicious about how I gave pieces of myself to the public. I wish I had. I wish I had been a little bit more thoughtful about how I doled out these incredibly private pieces of myself, because once they're out there, you can't get them back. And I think that always stuck with me. And I wonder if it's part of what you're saying is that, you know, we're not in the era of the 2010s, where that it. Where that trade off is necessarily going to be worth it or come with longevity. And I wonder if we're sort of seeing a. The. The effects of sort of just the different kind of digital media climate that we're actually in today, in 2026.
- [61:44]
Yeah. And now I think it's the other side of it where people are too thoughtful about what they want to put it out. They know that at this point they can use it to control the narrative. And that is what Lindy says in the Slate interview, where she says, I wanted to correct the narrative. I wanted to put out the definitive version of My story. And so it becomes this thing that she overthinks so that it can be presented in a feminist way of how she came to this choice where other people don't get to say she was coerced into this. He lied. It wasn't ethical. Because she can say, no, I have put out the, you know, this is the story. This is how it went. And it ends up being a little more overthought and fake than authentic and real. Like it was in those old days when it was like, oh, girl, you did not need to tell the world this. You know, it doesn't have that authenticity to it. It just feels like, oh, this is what you wanted to tell the world. Okay, is this what you're trying to tell yourself, too? But if you ask that question, then it's, donald, don't stop.
- [62:48]
How dare you have an opinion about this book that you paid to read?
- [62:51]
That you paid to read. How dare you? How. Oh, just because I ask in the book if my relationship isn't, you know, stable and if this is just me trying to distract myself, you think you can ask that question? It was like, girl. And, you know, I think it's. The book ends with a fart joke, and that's basically its conclusion is, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing, but I enjoy this right now. Will it work? I don't know. And that is kind of her answer to the question she asks herself. So it doesn't feel like it has a satisfying ending. It doesn't feel like, you know, this woman who finds this. This beautiful enlightenment. It feels like a book setting you up for a breakup memoir. And, hey, I'm all for that. I will be right there reading it. And then she knows that. So, hey, again, kudos to her on the book rollout and the sales. Like it, all of it. To me, for the people who are kind of saying, like, she's out of touch, I, again, for, you know, the ways I've said in the book, I do think she is. I think a lot of the language in the book is. Is also very 2000 and tens. There's, like, a lot of, like, Jay's squeeze moi, and, like, awkward turtle and all of that, I think maybe shows, like, a datedness. But if it comes to getting media attention and knowing how to publicize a book in the year 2026, Lydia west knows what she's doing. I think she knows exactly what she's doing. I think Ahab knows exactly what he's doing when he sends a very famous Slate writer, an angry email. They had to know that wasn't going to stay private. And if they did think it was going to stay private, then I think that speaks to a whole other disconnect.
- [64:33]
So what do you say to somebody who has listened to you, to you, your thoughts on this book, who was thinking Ashley is the hater of the year? How critical. What do you say to someone who's listening? I know someone listening is thinking that.
- [64:47]
Absolutely, probably. I mean, I feel like I've been very fair. You know, I think my issue mainly, and this is in my piece for Harper's, isn't, you know, feeling disappointed in Lindy or like, she let me down. Like I said, she. I've never felt like Lindy west owes me anything. I think the most beautiful thing she can do and be is to live her own life for her own choices. And those to me are the favorite, my favorite moments in the book. When she is on the road trip by herself and pushing herself to do something that is new to her, that isn't sleeping with her husband's girlfriend. You know, like, I'm glad she tried that, too. Sure, I've slept with husband's boy girlfriends. Yes, Lindy, do it. But I was more interested when it was her pushing herself to like, go on a hike or to do something difficult or to revisit a challenge that she felt she previously failed in this time accomplishing. And so I have positive things to say. I just think we see a more interesting Lyndy in those moments when she can admit her failures, when she isn't concerned with appearing perfect for her fans or, you know, trying to be perfect so she can own the trolls, when she is just honest in the book about her mistakes, her failures, the depression. That's when I think the book is at its best. Also when she's with her friends, that's when the book is at its best. And it's so frustrating that she doesn't seem to see that. You know, she talks about, like, she's away from AM and she's with Sam. And when she gets to Michigan, she gets to her hotel and Sam and her wife have left Lyndy. All of these treats that are her favorite. And it is the moment we learn the most about Lindy kind of in the whole book. And it's because Sam is like your favorite granola bars because you like this, your favorite this because you like this. And it's like, girl, do you not see you have these friends who love and know you more than this man who has Been giving you, like, stress hives. And you know, you want to see her in those moments. You want to be like, what does Sam have to say about what aham did? Like, let's get into that. And instead she circles back around to, but my whole world is aham. He's my home. That's what matters the most. And that to me is like where the, the disappointing parts are, that it comes back to that and then tries to present that as a perfect picture and the polyamory as a perfect picture. And it's like, Lindy, it doesn't have to be perfect. You don't owe us perfection. Polyamory does not owe anyone perfection. I think she also feels this burden, you know, because now she isn't just. Just someone who has to represent all fat people. She's also someone who's going to have to represent all ethical, non monogamous couples. And if their relationship fails, it's a failure for all ethical non monogamy. And I understand the pressures of that being a public poly person, but you have to let that go. You know, monogamous people have bad relationships. Polyamorous people and polygamists have bad relationships and go on to have other relationships that are good, that are bad. It's part of it. You know, polyamory doesn't make your relationship inherently good. It doesn't make you a perfect partner who's great with honesty and jealousy automatically. It doesn't fix things. So when she sells us this story of and everything's fixed and everything's perfect and we figured out our sleep schedules and I actually love sleeping alone. It turns out I never wanted to sleep with my husband. Even though I used to love sleeping with my husband, it turns out I did it. And it's kind of like you guys don't even fight about, like, who takes too much time in the shower. You've never argued over, like, I want pizza for dinner, but, oh, I want Chinese food that, like, it's just presented as we have amazing threesomes and everything is great. So suck it, haters. And that doesn't work anymore. That's not. I don't think anyone's buying that story anymore.
- [68:31]
Ashley, thank you so much for being here. I know you've got exciting projects cooking. Where can folks keep up with you?
- [68:38]
Yeah, you can follow me at theashleyray everywhere. Subscribe to my substack Deep trouble, which will have some exciting announcements coming up. If you're in la, look around for some live shows I have coming up. And yeah, beautiful.
- [68:54]
Thank you so much for being here.
- [68:55]
Thank you for having me again. I could talk about this book for four more hours.
- [68:59]
Thank you.
- [69:00]
I could randomly open a page, read a segment and be like we didn't even get into the sub dom relationship.
- [69:05]
Yes yes. Keep an eye out for Ashley Rae's Adult Braces Book Club coming soon.
- [69:13]
We just read it all. Braces.
- [69:20]
Bridget Todd
Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us@helloangodi.com youm can also find transcripts for today's episode@tangodi.com There are no Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creation. Jonathan Strickland is our Executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Dodd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [70:06]
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Ashley Rae
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