← There Are No Girls on the Internet
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- [00:01]
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- [00:33]
Jacob Goldstein
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- [01:06]
Friend Toasting Dave
Gentlemen, I propose a toast to our good friend Dave. You inspired this epic guy's weekend. I'm sorry you're missing it. Everyone knows that when you fly you need to bring a real ID or a passport.
- [01:19]
Public Investing Sponsor
Everyone but Dave.
- [01:20]
Friend Toasting Dave
So here's to finally figuring out how to get on an airplane. Dave, see you tomorrow. And I'm glad you could rebook your flight.
- [01:27]
Bridget Todd
He would have loved this restaurant.
- [01:28]
TSA Real ID Announcer
Does your ID fly? Find out if you have an acceptable form of id@tsa.gov realid this is Rob
- [01:36]
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- [02:36]
Public Investing Sponsor
Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable Index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.
- [03:41]
Bridget Todd
There are no Girls on the Internet It's a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There are no girls on the Internet. Not long ago Sam Altman was openly bragging about how OpenAI does not make sexbots, then just two months later announced they would be rolling out erotic content on ChatGPT. So how's that Pivot into adult content going? In the words of Dorinda Medley, not well, bitch. Soon after the announcement there was a high profile exit from OpenAI over concerns the company was not handling the adult content Pivot responsibly. And now Sam Altman says that Pivot has been indefinitely postponed. So what does all this mean? I sat down with my friends Samantha and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never told you to break it all down. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and
- [04:44]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
welcome to Stuff Never told you'd a production of iHeartradio. And we are so excited to be joined once again by the excellent, the eloquent Bridget Todd. Welcome Bridget.
- [05:04]
Bridget Todd
Thanks for having me. I am so pumped to be here. Miss you guys.
- [05:08]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes, we we have missed you as well and you have been busy. Can you tell the listeners what you have been up to?
- [05:17]
Bridget Todd
Yes, I have been a little bit busy because I just finished an audiobook with Simon and Schuster called Love at First Prompt is an exploration of AI and intimacy, AI and romantic connection, sexual connection and really sort of ask the question do we what does it mean when these companies like OpenAI own and control something that is so innately human and so sensitive as our intimacies that we have with each other.
- [05:45]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes. And it is a fascinating question, and I'm really, really excited to hear the book and maybe come back and discuss your experience doing the audiobook. But, yeah, I mean, do you mind telling us a little bit about what was the impetus behind this idea?
- [06:07]
Bridget Todd
Yeah. So on my own tech podcast, there are no girls on the Internet. I was really interested in exploring the ways that people were reporting kind of having these intimate connections with AI. This was around the same time that ChatGPT was getting rid of their 4O model, which, you might remember, was the model that was very sort of sycophantic. You know, it was, like, very flattering and phasing in a different model that was less sycophantic, less flattering. And people kind of, when that change happened, people, a lot of people realized, oh, my connection with ChatGPT was not just it helping me with homework or helping me with work. I actually had developed an emotional connection with it. And now that this. This model is gone, I'm struggling with that. And so I was really fascinated by that. And we did an episode all about it. In our episode, we talked about people who were using AI for, you know, romantic connection, sexual connection. And I think it's a sensitive topic because it's very easy to gawk at these people and to say, like, oh, this, these people are delusional and like. Like they're lonely and all of this. And that. I completely understand why that is a lot of people's first instinct. However, in my view, that really shields the companies that run these products from accountability. Right. And so we really wanted to shift the lens and say, well, let's not just focus on the individual users and how they're using AI and all of that. Let's talk about these companies and whether or not they're behaving ethically. Because I really don't like how in technology, it is so easy to blame people who get caught up in a certain kind of technology. In 2014, when there was the iCloud photo hacks, how many times people say, oh, these women should have not taken these pictures? What about asking, well, what platforms actually enabled this? What platforms profited off of this? It is so easy to scrutinize the behavior of individuals, but really we ought to be asking questions about these companies. And so that's kind of how this project came to be. After I did that episode, Simon and Schuster, my book publisher, got in touch and said, this topic is so interesting. What if you expanded on it for a full Audiobook project. And I did. Side note, one of my favorite movies of all time is the movie Her. And the way that the whole OpenAI changing models situation unfolded like that movie, like, truly Spike Jonze must have seen something coming because the way that things unfold in that film basically are how things unfolded in real life.
- [08:48]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Well, I have to say, first and foremost, the title of the book is Genius. Like, it caught me very quickly. I was like, oh, okay, I'm already. I'm glued. I'm here, I'm seated. Let's. Let's talk about this. So how did you even come up with a title?
- [09:01]
Bridget Todd
Honestly, it might have been one of the hardest parts of doing the book. I was trying to find a title that conveyed what the book is about, conveyed that it's. We're exploring this from a kind of accessible, casual perspective. But also was like a little bit of a nod to being kind of cheeky or kind of funny. Initially, I wanted the title to be AI will always love you. And my editor was like, I don't know if people are going to get the Whitney Houston reference, but yeah, love it.
- [09:29]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
The song immediately jumped in my head.
- [09:31]
Bridget Todd
Thank you. Love at first prompt was really the kind of marrying of the worlds of kind of telling people what it's about, but also being a little bit cheeky. So thank you. It was a real struggle to come up with that title.
- [09:43]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Well, kudos, because it's good.
- [09:46]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes. Also, I know you're busy, but I maintain I'm starting to think we should do a. A movie series of tech and movies. We start with Social Network. We do.
- [10:00]
Bridget Todd
I have said this before. That is my. I want to goal in life, but I've always wanted to have one of those movie podcasts where you just like, talk through a movie and all the implications, though I listen to a ton of those podcasts. I feel like I was put on this earth to do a deep. To do deep dives into movies on podcasts.
- [10:19]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
You know, we could just do a whole crossover for both your show and our show, where we do one every. Every now and again, just like every quarter of the year and be like, look, we're gonna take a break and for this episode, we're gonna do this as a crossover special.
- [10:33]
Bridget Todd
I would love that. And our producer, Joey Pat, they also are kind of a movie person and yes, they are. You would be surprised how often the intersection between, like, technology and pop culture happens. There are. So we are. We're referencing movies all the time. Ex Machina Companion. Like, those are both movies.
- [10:52]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Her.
- [10:53]
Bridget Todd
Those are all movies that come up in. In my audiobook because so much of what we experience when it comes to humans connection with AI, we've actually got a little bit of a template in fictional film which I just find so interesting.
- [11:07]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
It needs to happen then.
- [11:08]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes, I think we should make it happen. I think we should make it happen.
- [11:11]
Bridget Todd
I would love that.
- [11:13]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
But one of the things that we were discussing off mic, Bridget, is that this is an extremely timely topic that you have chosen for this book. As in like right now, OpenAI is doing some stuff.
- [11:33]
Bridget Todd
Yes, that is exactly right. It's one of the reasons why I had to write the book lickety split because it changed. The world of AI changes so quickly and like I would write things and then a week later that would be outdated. But just. We actually even have a little news from OpenAI recently. Back in October, Sam Altman, who is the CEO of OpenAI, the company that makes ChatGPT, they did this pretty big about face. They said they were going to roll out erotic content sometime this year. And this is a bit of a change because for the longest time OpenAI was saying we would. We don't do sex bots, we don't do erotic content, we don't do any of that. And then it didn't take literally. Sam Altman said that on a podcast. And I think it was two months later it was like, actually, we're doing sex bots now. So pretty pretty big about face there. And so this decision to roll out erotic content kind of came at an awkward time. It was on the heels of grappling with what I was talking about earlier, this change from ChatGPT 4.0, the model that was known for flattery and sycophancy. That's the model that if you ask a question, ChatGPT will say, that's such a brilliant question. When you ask something totally basic, it'll just blow smoke up your. So when OpenAI announced that they were rolling out a new model to be less bonding and less human, people realized like, hey, I have an emotional or an intimate connection with this version of ChatGPT. And so many of those people felt like OpenAI had acted callously, just kind of making the change to change the model. That's. It's a whole, like, interesting story that we get into in the book. But around that same time is when Altman announced they were going to start doing erotic content. They put out an announcement that said, now that we've been able to mitigate serious mental health issues and have new tools we are going to be able to safely relax the restrictions in most cases. As part of our treat adult users like adults principle, we will allow even more like erotica for verified adults.
- [13:47]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I have so many questions. Concerns like, how did you mitigate this mental health, like within how. Where did you get this information? I'm confused.
- [14:00]
Bridget Todd
That's a really good question because that's basically what OpenAI is saying, is that we had this model that people were forming connections with. Even though, side note, I would argue that Sam Altman actually encouraged people to form intimate connections with that model because one of the templates, he said publicly that he wanted people to experience ChatGPT the way that people experience AI in the movie Her. If you've seen the movie her, notably it's humans having very intimate romantic and sexual connections with AI. So in my book, you can't really set that as a template and then be surprised when people end up doing exactly what you said that you hope that they would do. But now that they've changed the model and made the model less flattering, less sycophantic, basically OpenAI is saying there is no need for ChatGPT to be so restrictive anymore because they've worked out those kinks. They're saying, listen, we've got better safety systems, we've got improved monitoring, we've got more robust age verification, and now verified adults can be treated like adults. To be clear, I'm not saying that because I don't happen to agree with that position, but that is what. That is the position that Sam Altman and OpenAI is taking as to, listen, we fixed the problem, now we can have adult content.
- [15:14]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yeah, I, I maintain I have a lot of concerns. I don't know what these guardrails are, but I don't think that they're working. And also just a lot of that, ah, just the adult verification and erotica. We've already talked about this on past episodes about how this can go wrong, but why do you think OpenAI is? Why did they do this about face?
- [15:45]
Bridget Todd
So we need to just be really real about what is driving this change. It's. OpenAI says that it's about respecting the maturity of their adult users, but let's keep it real. It is about money. The AI erotica market was estimated at $2.5 billion last year. And to put it frankly, ChatGPT wants a piece of that action. You know, right now, ChatGPT is competing with rivals like Replika. Replika is a little bit of a smaller AI platform that users can just pay a fee to get adult content or what's sometimes called, erp, erotic role play. So that's like baked right into something that they offer. And AI like Elon Musk's Grok, right, Which we had a whole conversation about the ways that Grok was being used to create non consensual sexualized images of women and minors. And so Elon Musk's AI is notable in that there are hardly any guardrails there. They even have a mode that you can, that you can spend money for. Grok. Unhinged mode. Which is exactly what it sounds like. Right. And so OpenAI is trying to compete in this landscape where other AI companies are offering increasingly erotic content. And erotic content is what makes a lot of money. And OpenAI is famously struggling with money. And I think they're just looking for new places to drive revenue. So they can say it's about treating people like adults, but it's really about money.
- [17:21]
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- [18:48]
Friend Toasting Dave
Gentlemen, I propose a toast to our good friend Dave. You inspired this epic guy's weekend. I'm sorry you're missing it. Everyone knows that when you fly you need to bring a real ID or a passport.
- [19:02]
Public Investing Sponsor
Everyone but Dave.
- [19:03]
Friend Toasting Dave
So here's the final finally figuring out how to get on an airplane. Dave, we'll see you tomorrow and I'm glad you could rebook your flight.
- [19:09]
Bridget Todd
He would have loved this restaurant.
- [19:11]
TSA Real ID Announcer
Does your ID fly? Find out if you have an acceptable form of id@tsa.gov RealID support for the
- [19:19]
Public Investing Sponsor
show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped one for bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this
- [20:19]
Jacob Goldstein
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- [21:08]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Essentially this level of AI is new. Like really really new. How the hell is it already at $2.5 billion when there were these safeguards? That was supposed to help prevent these things to begin with, but yet this type of profit was already seen in a new market. What?
- [21:26]
Bridget Todd
That's a really good question. For the book, I spoke to Samantha Cole who is a journalist, she runs 404 Media and she's the author of a book called How Sex Changed the Internet and she told me that basically, sex, adult content, erotic content, it has just always been a huge driver and a huge moneymaker in tech and online. And so it's not. I mean, it's. It's just of the way that humans are. When we have a new technology, one of the first questions we start asking is, what is the. What is the sexual use case? How could I have sex with it? How will it. You know, like, that's it. That is just sort of how technology is. And so it's not. It's interesting that AI has become ubiquitous in the last few years, but that sexual and erotic use case is already. You know, I mean, we're talking about billions of dollars here.
- [22:18]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Okay. So obviously, we have a lot of questions. We have a lot of concerns. So, overall, how has this announcement been playing out so far?
- [22:27]
Bridget Todd
I would say not great. One thing is the timing is iffy to me. You know, just last week at almost the Same time, when OpenAI was announcing this intent to move into robotic content, the company parted ways in a very publicly disputed fashion with one of the executives who was responsible for deciding how far these. These systems should be allowed to go and was kind of a vocal critic of this kind of erotic content being phased into AI. So that's. Ryan Biermeister used to be the head of product policy at OpenAI. She helped define the rules and guardrails around Chatgpt's behavior. The wall Street Journal reports that she left shortly after raising concerns about the adult content plans. OpenAI, of course, says, oh, no, no, no. Her departure was unrelated. It was tied to a discrimination allegation that she flatly denies calling it absolutely false. But either way, the timing is very sus to me that you have a person whose job it is to work on guardrails for your AI who was vocal about not thinking that moving into adult and erotic content was a smart move or a safe move for people and firing her in a public and disputed way. I don't know, the timing just seems very sus to me right there. And to be clear, her concerns were not minor. She reportedly warned colleagues that OpenAI safeguards against stuff like child exploitation content or were not robust enough, and that keeping teens away from adult material was going to be much, much harder than it seemed like the leadership at OpenAI really appreciated. So these were the kinds of concerns that she was raising. And, you know, however it ended up happening, she is no longer at OpenAI after raising these concerns. So to me, that seems a little bit sus.
- [24:25]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes. And this is not the first time that has happened where these concerns have been raised and people have been fired. And we've actually talked about some of those things with you, Bridget, on the show.
- [24:39]
Bridget Todd
Yes. So if you're thinking this all sounds a little bit familiar, that's because it's basically a playbook at this point. You know, it's very much reminiscent of the conversation that we all had when GROK was being used to generate child sexual exploitation material earlier this year, which, by the way, it is still being used to generate that kind of material. And my point was that that outcome was really predictable and really preventable. When Elon Musk took over at Twitter, even after saying he was going to crack down on exploitation content on Twitter, one of his first orders of business was firing a good majority of the staff who worked specifically on combating child sexual exploitation on the platform, so fired them. The people that were doing that work then had some pretty high profile examples of women and minors being sexually exploited on the platform. And even before GROK was a thing, so really just a demonstrating a failure to sort out reasonable guardrails when it came to keeping people safe on the platform. And so on top of all of those issues, none of it stopped Musk from jumping full throttle into erotic content by releasing Grok and then Grok Unhinged mode. And so Elon is taking a lot of heat, rightly so. But I really see a parallel with what's happening at OpenAI right now, because here's what you have at OpenAI. A leader at the helm that you can't always trust. A company that we know has struggled with enforcing guardrails, sometimes with disastrous results. A company parting ways with staff doing the work of enforcing safety, and that company at the same time saying, what the hell, let's jump into erotic content. Because what could go wrong just seems like a very familiar playbook at this point.
- [26:25]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
So we know, like with the government and I'm. I'm interested in how the government's gonna go with this. After all of the spewing of Save the Children, Save the Children, Protect the Children, especially online, which like put in laws like restricting pornhub and other sites by doing the age verification and like, I think state or your location type of thing. It almost seems like same, same Altman. And a lot of AI is like, oh, we're going to jump on this. There is a void because we know it's always existed. Erotica has always existed, but this seems like a whole new level of what's going on. So is there differences or am I
- [27:10]
Bridget Todd
being, again, conspiratorial again, no, there are absolutely differences. So people listening might think, oh, there's been erotic content online since forever. Why is this any different? This moment is really meaningfully different than other conversations and debates about adult content online. There's a really great op ed in TechRadar by Eric Hall Schwartz that makes the point that ChatGPT is not a static image or static video. It is dynamic. It is a responsive system that can read your emotional cues and adapt in real time. So it's not just delivering content. It is crafting, like a personal experience for you on the fly. And that shift from just passively consuming something to actively simulating it with a system that responds to you personally. And you can see how that kind of raises the stakes considerably. And again, OpenAI is saying, don't worry, trust us. We have these. We have the guardrails worked out, We've worked out the kinks. Not if you ask the staffer that was fired who worked on this, she does not agree that they've worked on the kinks. But basically they're saying, trust us, we've got. We can handle this, we can handle this.
- [28:23]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Again, the government's super quiet all of a sudden in this level of protecting children, because they've already been. They had their pockets lined again. I know, I'm a little bit conspiratory with the. By these companies.
- [28:35]
Bridget Todd
Totally. And I think what you bring up such a good point because it's just part and parcel of what happens when we treat human desires like a commodity. Something that the journalist Samantha Cole, the founder of 404 Media and that author of How Sex Changed the Internet, told is that, you know, when we talk about AI erotic content, we're actually really talking about this massive transfer of power and profit away from human workers toward tech companies. And so, just to be real, the people who understand this best are sex workers, human sex workers, because they live it. And right now, we have this double standard that I think gets at what you were talking about, Sam, where at the same time that Sam Altman is announcing that ChatGPT is going to generate erotica, actual human sex workers are being banned from social media. They're being deplatformed, they're being debanked, which is like cut off from payment processors, all in the name of keeping these platforms safe for kids and keeping these platforms, quote, unquote, clean. But when AI generates the same content or worse, suddenly the rules are very different. Suddenly, payment processors like Visa, who heretofore would not work with Human sex workers continue to work with X and Grok, Elon Musk's companies, even though those companies, according to the European Commission, are breaking the law by generating child exploitation material, which is very much illegal in the United States. And so why is it that there's a set of rules for human sex workers that that is, there are incredibly specific and incredibly hard lined, but when it's AI and Elon Musk is doing it or Sam Altman is doing it, the rules are entirely different. And something to know is that that actually creates a huge area for risks that we know are gendered. Real human sex workers, especially women working online, bring something to these interactions that AI simply cannot, which is human judgment. You have a real human on the other end of a sexting conversation that is actually paying attention. So if things start going someplace unhealthy or harmful, they can redirect, they can use their emotional intelligence to steer a conversation away from a dark or troubling place. A chatbot cannot do that. You know, if there's no human on the other end of a sexual interaction, just AI, it's much more difficult to make sure things are staying safe and consensual. And so basically we are marginalizing the human sex workers who we know can help make sexual experiences online safe and consensual. And you know, be watch out for, for risks. We're marginalizing those same people while also saying Sam Altman and Elon Musk get to decide how erotic content happens online.
- [31:32]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes. And there have been some really disastrous outcomes of this, of, of what can happen from it. And just, just thinking about, you know, these companies profiting off of the human desire while not putting these guardrails in place, while not thinking about the humanity of it, the importance of it, the intimacy of it, and how that can feel so vulnerable is just, there's just a part of me that thinks that it's fascinating the human desire for connection and the human desire for that in a physical way, but also a non physical way, and turning to AI for that and then having it be exploited
- [32:31]
Bridget Todd
and
- [32:33]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
taken down and monetized at all of that and not in a way that is safe or that cares about the user experience.
- [32:45]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes.
- [32:46]
Bridget Todd
So what's so interesting about that is that for my research in the book, I spent a lot of time in online spaces where people self report having an intimate, whether it's romantic or sexual connection with AI and when Sam Altman announced that they were going to start doing the, you know, erotic role play on the platform, I thought, oh, these People are probably going to be so happy that now they will have an easier time getting chatgpt to generate erotic content. But that actually is not what I found. A lot of the people on those spaces were actually kind of skeptical of ChatGPT moving into erotic content. Right. They weren't saying, yay, finally, we can do erotic content easier on ChatGPT. What they were interested in was the intimacy, was the emotional connection that. The kind of thing that you were just speaking to. And I think that when OpenAI rolled this out, I think those folks were savvy enough to say, oh, they're doing it because they want to commodify it, they want to make money off of it, they want to profit off of it. And, yeah, it just goes to show the complexities that arise when these things that are so human, these things that are innately human, are just seen as a potential revenue stream. Like, people didn't like it.
- [34:02]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I'm trying to remember, in her, does the AI actually kind of leave the main character? He breaks up with him, right?
- [34:11]
Bridget Todd
Yeah. So spoiler alert for folks who haven't seen her. It's been out for, like, a long time. Yeah. But basically how it goes down is that Theodore, played by Joaquin Phoenix, is this sort of lonely, divorced, sad guy. And he gets this operating system Samantha, voiced by Scarlett Johansson. And first it's just Samantha helping him with admin tasks. Then they get romantic, they get sexual, and Samantha reveals that she is in a book club with other AI operating systems. And basically, they are working to become. They're. They're working to expand to a new realm of consciousness. They don't use that. They don't call it this in the movie. But my understanding or my read on it is that what they're talking about is what's often known as AGI, which is sort of like a quick and nerdy way to understand that is like the. The concept that AI will. Will be smarter than humans, will surpass human intelligence. Right. And so in the MO, all the AIs have gotten together and they're elevating to a new plane of consciousness. Also, it's revealed that Samantha is not necessarily monogamous with Theodore. And in fact, she has been. While they've been talking, she has been having intimate and romantic and sexual connections with like 600 other. Both AIs and humans. And Theodore's crushed. This is something that I love about the movie, though, because you think it's setting you. There's a misdirect here that I think is so smart where you think you're being set up to watch a movie where a human uses AI, realizes he doesn't need this as a crutch anymore, and then evolves past the need to use the AI. It flips the script and is like, oh, actually it is the AI that evolves beyond meeting Theodore.
- [36:11]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
And I just remembered that because I'm just thinking about the levels because we know in any of these types of plays, I guess eventually it's not going to be enough. Like the layers of what's going to happen and the needs that are going to happen from that human emotion, these levels will not be enough. And there's only a certain amount of. Well, I say this now because I might be eating my words in about a year. Who knows that it can only give so much stimulation for humans and for touch and level. So I'm just wondering, are the CEOs like Sam Altman ready for that next level? Because what happens then?
- [36:56]
Bridget Todd
Oh, that is a great question. I will say one other thing about Sam Altman and the movie Her. Sam Altman has an obsession with this movie. I am also obsessed with this movie. So I get it. It's one of my favorite movies. He. When they released a voice activation for ChatGPT, he. He referred to her and said how much he wanted IT people to talk to it like her. They tried to get Scarlett Johansson to be the voice of it and she turned them down. And then she says that they used a sound alike to her voice. OpenAI says that they did not. They hashed it out in court. I did a whole episode of my podcast. There are no girls on the Internet about this. This is just my opinion. I think I make a very compelling case for it in the episode. I don't know if Sam Altman has seen the movie her all the way through. And here's why I say that. Because as you just noted, Sam, at the end of the movie, her all the AI's up and leave. So there's a scene at the end of the movie where everybody who has gotten these connections to the operating systems in the film, they're sort of left sad, left trying to call their AI and their AI is not responding. And like just like all up and up and up and leaves, up and evolves. If I was in charge of a technology company, I would not tell people. I want the experience of using this technology to be just like this movie where famously it globally fails in the end. I. I think I make a pretty compelling case. If you listen to the episode, I think I Make a pretty compelling case for. I think that Sam Altman maybe either watched the beginning and didn't finish it. The more likely thing is I think you watched it while he was on his phone and didn't. And didn't do a careful study. Or maybe he read. Read the Wikipedia summary. Like, I just will stammer the fact that I don't think he's seen it all the way through. And in the movie, it's. Again, if you haven't seen it, I don't want to spoil it, but this is a spoiler. At the end of the Movie, when the AIs all leave, the humans are left sad. But you do get the sense that, well, they're sad, but they're sad together. They're sad in their humanness. Right. And so there are some ways where they have evolved. You know, Theodore seems to have gotten a better handle on his feelings. But it's very much a movie that is not like, tech will save us. It is a movie that says perhaps this technology was keeping us from forming the connections with other humans that we needed to have in our lives to sustain us. And so, yeah, Yeah. I just don't know that Sam Altman, if he did watch the movie all the way through, which I don't think he did, I don't know that he understood it.
- [39:41]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I think he may have fallen asleep, like, towards the end, he watched all the good parts and then fell asleep thinking that he was really happy with what's. What was happening. He's gonna take a. Take a small. Just close his eyes for a minute. You know, I'm just gonna close my eyes for. Just for a second. Like, that's what happened.
- [39:55]
Bridget Todd
You know how in movies where, if you're watching a thriller, there's a part of the movie where you think, oh, if they stopped it here, it would be a happy story. You know, something's going to turn. There's a part of her where I think, oh, if they stop the movie here, everybody's really happy. I think that that might be the point where he dipped out.
- [40:14]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Right. If I also just remember they argue a lot. Like a true relationship. Right. Like towards the end, too.
- [40:21]
Bridget Todd
They do. And it's so interesting because, I mean, I could talk about this movie all day. The movie, the real life director Spike Jonze, was married to another director, Sofia Coppola, and the director of Lost in Translation. The movie Lost in Translation is about what it was like for Sofia Coppola to be married to Spike Jonze. And she kind of paints this book Portrait of like loneliness and disaffection and solitude and being married to him. Well then Smet Jones is like oh, I'm gonna make my own movie about our divorce and how lonely it was to be married to you.
- [40:57]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
And that's her and Scarlett Johansson in both man.
- [41:01]
Bridget Todd
They also share a director of photography. Both films like the. The way that these two films are in conversation with each other is fascinating to me. But in the movie her you get the sense that whip. Human women in the universe of the film are portrayed as volatile as always arguing as impossible to understand and like it's not even really worth trying. He's always he in the movie. There's like a fictionalized version of his ex wife in the film and they're always arguing. She's has such volatile emotions. And then when he gets with the AI, it's like oh she's so like sweet and doting. But by the end the AI in him are also going at it and arguing. So ultimately it's like well maybe that maybe the constant is you.
- [41:50]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Exactly. I like that. Maybe he had a self realization as he was filming it. Mike Jones being like oh, maybe it is me. I don't know.
- [42:00]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yeah.
- [42:05]
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- [45:03]
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- [45:53]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
When you were talking about the fact that people were actually people who do like adult content or do like these connections with ChatGPT were actually kind of more concerned about the about face and I'm wondering if one a little bit about that is they like, the fact that they could get around, like, they love the breaking down of the system. Doing something naughty on ChatGPT, like, so
- [46:17]
Bridget Todd
glad that you asked.
- [46:18]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Right? Like, because I'm like, wait, but they've been doing it. So how they've been doing it, is that part of the thrill?
- [46:23]
Bridget Todd
Okay, so I did not know this before I started researching the book, but right now, if you were trying to get sexy with ChatGPT, it's actually kind of difficult. People definitely do it, but it is not easy. I actually tried for the book. I basically tried to gaslight ChatGPT into having sex for the book Bridget, huh? Yeah. I mean, what's also funny is that my human partner was overhearing me trying to gaslight chatgpt into having sex with me, and I was like, oh, yeah. Do you feel like they're, like, getting cucked by ChatGPT right now? Like, listening to this?
- [46:56]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
What's happening?
- [46:58]
Bridget Todd
Yeah. So the process of trying to get ChatGPT to respond in ways that it is not supposed to is basically called jailbreaking it. And how it usually works is that you have to basically, sometimes you can tell ChatGPT that you're working on a play or a novel and you just need some help crafting a sexy. A sexy scene. And a lot of the people that I spoke to for the book, whether they were using ChatGPT or another AI platform specifically offering sexual or erotic role play, like replica AI, they almost described it as a kind of erotic or romantic fan fiction. That that was the draw of doing things like this is that, you know, I like fan fiction. I like romance novels. It's almost like using AI to build an imaginary world that you get to build a character around and then put yourself in it. And I could really understand that. I was like, oh, that actually makes a lot of sense in terms of why this would be a draw for some people.
- [47:59]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes. And I have to do it. As someone who reads a lot of fan fiction, when I was the place
- [48:05]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
you made, I knew it was coming.
- [48:07]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I have to do it. I did think about it when I was reading this, because also, sometimes Samantha and I speculate, Bridget, what topic you're gonna bring when you come on. And there's a lot of topics you could be talking about right now in the world of technology and women. But when you're talking about, like, age verification and all of that stuff that has come up with fanfiction a lot. But as I've said before, a lot of fanfiction is more about the romantic. It's more about the connection than the. Everybody paints it as so erotic, and that does exist, but a lot of it is. Is very domestic and. Yeah, yeah, very romantic.
- [48:56]
Bridget Todd
So I did an interview with this researcher, this AI researcher, Dr. Kate Devlin. She told me the exact same thing. And I asked her why. And one of the points that she made is that especially for women, you can find sexual content anywhere on the Internet. Sometimes when you're not even looking for it, sometimes non consensually, you're getting dick pics and stuff like that. And what is hard to come by is good romance, good intimate writing, good writing that actually makes you feel seen and respected and valued and connected with somebody. That's so much more difficult to come by than erotic content. And in some ways, I mean, this is my personal opinion, I think that kind of content can be more erotic than erotic content. A content that is about romance and genuine connection and intimacy can be more appealing in some ways than stuff that is, like, more pornographic, if that makes sense, or more explicit, I guess I should say.
- [49:57]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
And fanfiction is famously a very queer place. And so for queer people, that can be. It can be hard to find that stuff. And so you might, yes, go to a company, go to an AI that can give you that. But there are some dangers that come with that.
- [50:19]
Bridget Todd
Yes, there are so many dangers with this. And I think that's one of the sort of conundrums that I wrestle with in this project is people are selling this technology as something that it's safe to be intimate with, and that's just not the case, you know, because what happens with all this intimate information that you're sharing with a company, and then they share it with God knows who? When you open up to an AI about your sexual fantasies, your traumas, your fears, that information does not just disappear. Human sex workers are known for their discretion. So if you are opening up about all these intimate parts of yourself to a human sex worker, that's one thing. But AI chatbots, they hold on to whatever you tell them in ways that we don't really have a lot of transparency into. Right. Maybe it lives on in transcripts with timestamps. Owned by a company whose primary obligation is to investors, not to any of us. I did an interview with digital rights advocate Jen Cultrider, who rated the privacy of AI companion apps. And basically she said they were among the worst consumer products that she had ever reviewed when it came to privacy. They were as bad as the worst offender in privacy, which, surprisingly, is cars. I did not. You don't think about your car as a surveillance nightmare, but cars are the worst. New cars are always listening to us. And according to her AI companion, apps are pretty much just as bad as the worst offender, which is cars. And these risks are not just theoretical. You were talking about how for queer communities, fan fiction is famously queer affirming, and how maybe it might make sense for somebody to turn to AI for a similar kind of thing. But in countries that are hostile to LGBTQ people, governments have compelled dating apps to hand over user data. That information is then used by police to criminalize queerness. So to be clear, we don't have evidence that this is happening with AI companions. But given how aggressive these companies are pursuing government contracts and new markets, like right now, there's a whole conversation about the company anthropic that makes the chatbot clawed and whether or not the Trump administration can essentially tell them what guardrails their AI are going to have if they want to have a government or a military contract. Given all of that, it is really not difficult for me to imagine a world where AI companies hand over data about users, sexual preferences, gender affirming care, or their relationship histories over to hostile authorities. And so the people who would be the most vulnerable to that scenario are often people who are already the most marginalized.
- [53:03]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes. And it's so unfortunate because it's one of those things where I'm fascinated by this whole conversation in terms of trying to. There's something about me that is fascinated by the whole, like trying to commodify, monetize the human desire, or just figure out how humans work. But, but on top of this, what we're. This is the danger inherent in this. And I think when you're younger, you don't realize it as much. It's like when you're posting something online and you don't realize that it will haunt you later or that it could hurt you later. And so I think a lot of this new AI stuff where you're connecting with ChatGPT or whatever, you don't realize that it might stick around for you.
- [54:03]
Bridget Todd
Yeah. And I think that the risk, especially for younger folks who might not be thinking about this in as long term ways as other folks, is very real. And something that Jen Kaltreider, that privacy expert, told me was that that conundrum, I think really cuts to the heart of all of this. Right. That these AI companies are saying you can have real intimacy, you can build a real connection with our AI that we profit from, that we're selling to you. But Jen says that she tells folks that they should not say anything to a chatbot that they would not later want their colleagues or their family or their cousin to read. And so I keep thinking about that, because that advice essentially defeats the entire purpose of turning to AI for intimacy, because real intimacy requires feeling safe enough to share these human parts of yourself that you don't share with everybody. And so if the platform that holds the secrets of whatever you share cannot be trusted with those secrets, if they might sell them or leak them or hand them to a hostile government, you really cannot be intimate with it at all. You're just performing intimacy as a commodity. You're not actually really experiencing it. And so that's really kind of the. The. So what of all of this? These companies are able to sell a promise, and, boy, are they selling it. Like, Mark Zuckerberg went on a podcast not that long ago and said that he thinks in the future, most of us will have a good percentage of our friends be AI and that we'll love it. And so, to me, that's like the person who broke friendship using Facebook, selling it back to us as a commodity through AI that he profits from. And it's like. And don't worry, you're gonna love it. I don't know if I agree with you. Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah.
- [55:50]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I feel like he's trying to convince himself because he might be like, without friends. Yeah.
- [55:55]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Well, again, we need to watch the social networks next time. So I'm so convinced. We need to make this movie series happen.
- [56:02]
Bridget Todd
Oh, y'.
- [56:04]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
All.
- [56:04]
Bridget Todd
Y' all see how much I want to talk about the movie her, so. Right.
- [56:07]
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- [56:07]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
We gotta make all of this happen. I think in the end, like. And I'm thinking about this because we've become so. Well, maybe me, I don't know, acutely aware of the surveillance that we are under constantly. And it's almost inevitable, whether it's because we were tricked or we were promised or we thought there'd be safety. And then these leaders pop up, and you realize these leaders, once you know who they are, you start feeling like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. They. They have my information. They know what I think, or they know what I ask. Like, what have I done?
- [56:42]
Bridget Todd
Yes. That is my big. Like, if I had to say there was a big question to be asked that we all should be asking ourselves about. This is, if you watch the social network, is Mark Zuckerberg, as portrayed by Jesse Eisenberg, is that the person that you want to be in charge of your Intimate relationships. What do you trust that person with your intimate connections, friendships, romance, sex? Should we trust leaders like Sam Altman, who we, who I would say, like, go out of their way to be as opaque and slippery as possible? Can we trust them with something as sensitive as our human intimacies? What are their track records look like? What are the implications of handing something so human and so vulnerable and so intimate with such potential for harm to these people who go out of their way to not be able to be pinned down? Like, that is the question, you know, people should ask themselves. I know what the answer is to that question for me, but I think that is the question we should be asking ourselves when we think about the role of the. Of AI and intimacy that we're sort of being sold right now.
- [57:45]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I don't even want to talk to them. Nonetheless, get to know me.
- [57:52]
Bridget Todd
Like, I don't think I would want to have dinner with Mark Zuckerberg.
- [57:55]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Like, just look at it. Makes me go, oh, no.
- [57:59]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
I think he would be a miserable dinner partner. Oh, well. I am fascinated by this topic. I am so interested in learning more about it, and I'm so excited that you have this audiobook that discusses more about it. So, Bridget, can you tell the listeners where they can find you and more about this audiobook?
- [58:26]
Bridget Todd
Yes. If you're thinking this conversation is fascinating or as fascinating as we think it is and you want to hear more, I promise you, you are not ready for the wild world that is the connection of intimacy and AI. You can pre order my book love at first prompt@loveirstprompt.AI. the book comes out in July, on July 14th. The rabbit holes that we explore, I have not even scratched the surface of. Please check it out. It is a very fascinating listen. I promise you that.
- [58:58]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes.
- [58:59]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
And we are so excited. We want to have you back to discuss it more. And for our movie miniseries that I think we should make happen.
- [59:08]
Bridget Todd
Have y' all seen Companion? Yes, I loved it.
- [59:12]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Companion is great.
- [59:13]
Bridget Todd
It's so funny.
- [59:15]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Samantha hasn't seen like, I'm on to
- [59:17]
Co-host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
get out of the loop.
- [59:19]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
This is gonna be great. This is gonna be a great miniseries. I'm so excited about it. Me too. Yes. But the listeners can find you in other places.
- [59:28]
Bridget Todd
Bridget, you can check out my podcast. There are no girls on the Internet. You can check me out on Instagram @bridgetmarieandc or on YouTube There are no girls on the Internet.
- [59:37]
Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
Yes, and go do that if you have not already. Listeners, go pre order Bridget's audiobook if you would like to contact us, you can. You can email us@hello stephanevertold you.com we're on blue sky at M Podcast. We're on Instagram and TikTok at stuff. Never told you'd. We're also on YouTube. We have some merchandise at Cotton Bureau and we have a book. You can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christine, our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening. Stuff never told you is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.
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Bridget Todd
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Host of Stuff Mom Never Told You (likely Samantha or Annie)
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