← There Are No Girls on the Internet
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Bridget Todd
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Bridget Todd
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These statements have not been evaluated by
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Bridget Todd
the Food and Drug Administration.
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These products are not intended to diagnose,
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Bridget Todd
treat, cure or prevent any disease. There Are no Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are no Girls on the Internet. Someone, probably a guy in a basement somewhere, has figured out that if you generate a black woman and make her say degrading racist things about herself. You can make money on the Internet. Probably not a lot of money, maybe just a few hundred dollars a month, but enough to keep on doing it. TikTok, Instagram and every other social media platform, they're serving it up on your social media feed right now. It's AI generated digital blackface and it is absolutely everywhere on social media. There are accounts built entirely around it. Fake black women with impossibly dark skin performing self hatred and funneling viewers to things like porn sites and dropshipping scams. So this is not one of those future AI problems we might have to grapple with down the line. This is happening right now and Jeremy Carrasco is one of the people actually trying to do something about it. He's kind of become the AI debunking guy on social media. He started out as a video production guy working in live streaming and technical producing. And that background has given him a sharp eye for spotting AI fakes. When Jeremy partnered with the BBC to expose over 100 of these AI generated accounts, TikTok actually listened, pulling 20 of them down within three days. It's a start, but as Jeremy will tell you, it is a very small dent.
- [03:49]
Jeremy Carrasco
My name's Jeremy Carrasco, creator at Jeremy Finds AI and director of Riddance.
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Bridget Todd
So I love that you kind of come at this from a technical place. As somebody who got, you know, was working in live streaming, making content, I feel that so much of the conversation around AI has really been set by tech companies and their sycophants, frankly. And so it's just nice to have a different kind of voice. Do you feel like that producer, live streamer, Video eye has helped you develop a framework around AI deepfakes.
- [04:22]
Jeremy Carrasco
It's the voice that I wanted to have and the background that I felt like was needed in this space. I think exactly what you said. I just. When I created my pages in June of last year, the main reason was that a lot of the ways people were talking about AI video, they were pretending that these were tools for my industry, like the one that I knew people in, the one that I didn't see many good uses for in general. So I just wanted to speak up and be like, hey, no one really wants this. Like, we're not asking for this. Stop using the industry as a reason to push out AI slot making tools. Just be honest that you're making AI slop or you're trying to maybe replace Hollywood down the line. But I felt like a lot of it was just either inauthentic or like Very, very rose colored glasses that people were going to start making independent films with AI videos. And in fact a lot of the opposite has happened. A lot of people who are true creatives have rejected this, but it has definitely encroached on transactional spaces. I spent a lot of my time in places of, you know, video commerce where a lot of that is kind of under threat by AI. So that's one of the reasons I started was I just felt like a lot of that was disingenuous or too rosy. But the technical background I have, I had no idea that this is what it would be used for. When I was a live streaming technical producer, I was also they call an engineer in charge, which means sometimes I would have to like visually check, check lip sync, like very, very specific thing down to like a frame of accuracy. I didn't know that would come in handy for looking at AI lip sync later or looking at errors in encoding and video would come into play when I was looking at AI videos. So yeah, it's a very weird niche skill set. But that plus my obsession with Internet and culture and politics kind of brought it to a more media literacy place rather than just spotting AI video because I think that AI video spotting is a part of media literacy, a media literacy toolkit that some people don't have. So like in that case they should have other parts of media literacy toolkit because it's going to get harder and harder. I don't, I'm not under any illusion that people are going to be able to do this for that much longer.
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Bridget Todd
This is a little bit of a non sequitur. But to your point about how when video tools, when AI video tools like Sora were being talked about, I don't know if you see this on your social media feeds, but I cannot escape it and it drives me fucking crazy. Where AI sycophant, I guess like devotees will say, did XYZ AI platform just end the need for Hollywood or cgi? And then they will post the wackiest looking, most out of context ridiculous video. And I'm like, are you all, are you seeing what you posted? You're saying that this is going to like, like, like this is what people are going to pay to watch. Are you, are you, are you really saying this?
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Jeremy Carrasco
So there, there are two things here. First, like the whole Hollywood is cooked thing is so funny because Hollywood's not exactly like a burgeoning, profitable industry right now. Just like stick to tech. Like why are you trying to, to enter this like industry that is being Threatened in so many different ways. So just the obsession with Hollywood as like a cultural phenomenon is just so funny to me, especially like the anti Hollywood people. I'm not a big Hollywood person by the way. I'm a social media person. I've never worked in Hollywood. I just like, I just think the fascination is funny because I specifically wasn't working in Hollywood because I didn't think it was the place to be anyway. The, the, and that's, that's nothing against the people who love movies. It's just not how I grew up. The, the other thing that is like missing here is we have to ask ourselves like why we watch things and why we would watch that in the context that they're presenting it. So like, why would you go to a movie theater to watch something? If AI could make anything, then theoretically nothing really matters on like aesthetic grounds. And it's all about the meaning that it would have. And if, if you can't get that meaning out of the artistic work that was put in or even like the celebrity that you like going to see, like, then what is the point? And I don't think that they've thought that far ahead. I think there are a lot of useful tech demos, but they haven't gotten a good way around that, that point, which is if you can make that at home on your desktop, then why would anyone go watch it in the first place? It doesn't mean anything. So it's, it's a little bit of like a, a problem. It's like a zero sum game. We have too much content out there. How do we decide what we want to watch? It's not just because it looks like Hollywood, it's because it means something or we have some sort of connection to it.
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Bridget Todd
Yeah, it doesn't mean anything is a great way to put that where I'll watch these clips that people are telling me are so phenomenal and I feel nothing. They just feel so flat. And I, my listeners all know I am a movie person. And it's like the thing that I feel when I go to the movies, it's like a very specific thing. It's not just, I guess the attitude that boils that down into AI made this very quickly and cheaply. That's not the thing that gives anything meaning.
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Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah. And just to be clear, I like to say that I'm not a movie person because I've seen an embarrassing few number of movies. I still love seeing movies. Sometimes I just like, whenever there's, like I'm embarrassed by it, whenever I Go, though, is because I really want to see something, I really want to watch it. And that doesn't just come because of some impressive technical feat that happened. You know, I, I just, I, I don't think that we do a good job of separating, like, why we watch certain things, because I think the, the natural tendency is like, well, people just doom.
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Bridget Todd
Scroll.
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Jeremy Carrasco
They watch slop. So, like, yeah, but like, we're not watching. We haven't been watching social media videos in movie theaters this whole time. Like, the, the, the bar to, to create things has never been lower. It was never lower before AI media. Like, we were still figuring out reasons to watch something on our phone versus something in the theater. There weren't a lot of movies coming out that like, specifically used iPhone cameras, even though they were way cheaper. Because you have to rejigger your entire workflow around an iPhone camera. You have to remake your entire workflow around AI video production if you're going to do that. Because you can't cut between a 4K cinema camera and a 720p AI video. That's what all of them still are, by the way. And you can pay extra for 1080p or 4K, but they still look like AI videos when you're. Especially if you're looking at them on a big screen. So there are technical limitations to this happening. There are also, like, meaning relationships that just like, aren't being made with AI videos. But I think a lot of people who are super into it are just like, they're into the AI hype, they're into the technology. So they just don't see that because for them, the, the purpose here is the technology. That's like, that's the entire point. I just don't think normal people do that.
- [11:18]
Bridget Todd
I don't know if this is true or not, Jeremy, but I read that you actually started from a place of being quite optimistic about AI and that initially you wanted to do a YouTube channel about kind of how people can use AI video tools. Is that right? I read it in Verge, I think.
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Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah, it just. That was before Google VO3 even came out. I mean, it was basically like I chose the. My, My pages used to be called Show Tools AI because I was, I was going to make shows with tools, and some of those are going to be AI. Very witty. Except for the fact that, like, Google came out with veo this. The week that I was gonna launch my page. I had to like, stop everything I was doing and being like, what is happening here? And yeah, I, it's. I Wasn't really ever thinking that I was gonna use like AI video to make movies. I was more interested in how it could be used for storyboards maybe or how it could use. Be used for green screen backgrounds or stuff. And you can actually see me experiment with some of that and like try it out. In my, like my early days and I was very, very upfro with it. I disclosed all of it. I was like, I was trying to be like the demonstrator of like how to label and do this responsibly. And then I just realized it's just. It just didn't really mean anything to me. At the end of the day, I didn't find it was that helpful. And I just hated the process. I just, I just hated prompting AI videos. And I still do. I just think it's boring. I think it is not an efficient way to make media. I think that there's a lot of reasons why you can't. You can't convey an entire scene over text. And you do have to have some like, visual medium to tell. It's like just more efficient for me. I don't know. I can point to camera at something in some ways quicker than I can write it given the right context. So the reason that Hollywood works the way it does and the reason they haven't moved over to a phone is because this is harder to use in the context that they are making movies. They need more control. Their producers expect more control. That's the same way I felt about AI videos. It did not give me the control that I needed in order to make the thing I wanted. So then what was the point? And the whole thing that I think it's kind of ontologically evil and it stole a bunch of data. And it's not like there are a bunch of other reasons that wasn't about
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Bridget Todd
it, you know, Is that really what changed for you from going from like a kind of an AI optimist to being like, actually, I don't know about this. This maybe isn't. Isn't the thing I thought it might be.
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Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I was ever an AI optimist. I think I was always an AI pragmatist. And like, how are we going to use this? Like it's here. How are we. How is it possible? And then I just saw a surprising amount of reaction against AI. I don't think it was a given at the time when I started my pages and I was starting to do like these AI video spotting videos. People are like, they don't care. They just want to watch whatever. They'll just do and scroll. They'll watch slop, no one cares. But it turns out people do not want to be tricked. Even if they want to watch slop like they want to watch slop and know it's sloth. They don't want to watch something real and find out that it was AI later. That's just like a really bad feeling. We want to have real connections with people. We want to assume that we're interacting with real people. And oftentimes the even the slop interactions are like you're meta aware that you're watching slop and you're engaging with the comments and like you're all memeing each other. It's like it still can be a social thing, but I think that it was just pretty early when I started and I knew it was early and the learning process was really quick because all of a sudden a lot of people cared about AI video and I just didn't think that would ever. Because I was also under the impression that people didn't care. And I'm glad that I was wrong.
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Bridget Todd
I spend a lot of time talking about people lying on the Internet specifically for nefarious means, for social or political control or to influence people. But a lot of people are just good old fashioned financial grifters trying to make some quick cash, especially when it comes to AI generated content on social media. And I think that understanding that dynamic, the power of algorithms and platform monetization to push everyone toward extremist clickbaity content is central to understanding the Internet in general. Jeremy says that accounts chasing that monetization or other scams are very different than someone who was using AI to just make flop entertainment content like those Fruit Love Island AI micro dramas that recently went viral. On our podcast we talk a lot about things like mis and disinformation. AI has been a huge part of that conversation and a lot of times when we're talking about it, we frame it as just inherently kind of nefarious. Right? That it is that AI and other forms of mis and disinformation are manipulating people for some sort of political or social ends. But from watching a lot of your content, I've come to realize that yes, that is true, but also a lot of times it's a lot simpler than that. People are just trying to make money. This is a little bit of a financial grift. Do you see it that way? And if so, is one of those motivating factors, like worse than the Other,
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Jeremy Carrasco
there are too many reasons people would use AI video. The first is just to make slop. And this is something interesting so people understand that I'm like the AI debunking, AI spotting guy. And so like, you know, the AI Fruit Love island videos, for example, I was not tagged once. No one brought it to my attention at all. I had to find out like everyone else did, just through, through culture, public, you know, like whatever, like just the normal way. Learned about it on the streets. Yeah, yeah, out on the streets, exactly. Most of the times I find out about videos because people tag me in them, people send me them and you know, if, if an AI video gets over a hundred to five hundred thousand views and I'm not tagged in it, sometimes I'm a little bit surprised or I'm worried because no one's caught it. But not one person tagged me in that because people knew, people were aware. Now a lot of the things I get tagged in are scams. Exactly what you said, which is just like, like a drop shipping scam that pretends that their goods are handmade. That is the thing that I'm seeing everywhere right now. I'm tagged in at least five or 10 of those every day of like this new Chinese good that pretends to be handmade. And a lot of the times those are also reusing media from people who are actually making those goods and reskinning them with AI. And it's a very frustrating thing for those real people to go through. And then I also see, yeah, coordinated campaigns or just mis or disinformation. But I mean I think a lot of the people who, you know, there is a reasonable, there is a reasonable viewpoint that an AI person. So like a person who shows up and tells you something like you should not trust them because they don't have any accountability. You don't know who they are, they don't have a history, they don't have a past. It's completely reasonable to see this and go, I don't trust you and therefore I'm just going to disagree with you because you have to check what they are saying anyway. Because they don't have any stakes, they don't have any accountability. So at that point I don't think that they're a very reliable piece of, piece of information. You're not going to get good information from them. This is actually different than using a large language model. Like you can ask a large language model questions, you can ask it for sources, you can, you can like debate with a large language model. So it's not even just that AI itself can't tell the truth about things, but if I see an AI avatar saying something on social media, I'm going to not trust it because I'm going to ask where this is coming from. I think that that's a good instinct that people have, and we're seeing it used a bunch of different ways, but, like, you can largely throw a lot of that information away. And I'm glad that that is the direction we're headed. I'm glad that that's the instinct people have rather than the opposite.
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Bridget Todd
Right now, I want to get into this. You mentioned the sort of AI generated fake, fake handmade, good stuff. I see so much of that. And I will say, like, a lot of what I see is also. I guess I would almost call it like racialized guilt marketing, where it'll use some sort of. It'll be an AI generated black person selling something, using a kind of racialized sob story to sell it. So it'll either be, I got, I am the victim of a racist hate crime, so buy my handmade item, or I am a black person who makes a handmade item, and the only people that I trust to support my business are white women. So white women buy my handmade item. What is going on here?
- [19:59]
Jeremy Carrasco
So there are unfortunately, examples that I've seen where you basically have A, A and B experimentation on, like, one of them is a white woman, one of them is a black woman, and the black woman usually performs better. So there is something there. And it's usually because they're both using exploitative language like you just said, and that performs better for the black character. I've also seen pages that have inconsistent characters. So they might go from like a white guy selling dog supplements to a wise Asian man selling dog supplements. And then it's just like, boom, it just takes off. And part of the reason, if I want to be very charitable about it, is there's something just like, shocking about this is like, real people don't manipulate people like that. Or if they do, they're shamed and they. It's embarrassing. And so there's just something about AI like, that's an arbitrage opportunity for AI because no one has to be held accountable. And they can, they can literally just like, make a racist comment in front of a black character. And like, that's okay for them because it's just a white guy making them. Usually it's like some dude in Kosovo. Like, I see that a lot. And, and so I, I, you know, it's an exploit that AI is uniquely able to, to manage is as far as like what it says about us. I mean, I will, I will leave that to people smarter than me. I can see the patterns. I can. I, I hate it. I've, I've seen it like manipulated in very big and harmful ways. And I've actually, you know, the articles I've done about it, I oftentimes like, will like ask a black woman how it makes them feel because I can't feel that the same way. I like, I feel uncomfortable about it. But like it's harmful to have these depictions out there. Just like in general, like it is inherently harmful. It makes people feel bad when they see it and like that harm is being done. And that's not harm being done to me, but it is something that I can spot and make people aware of. So that's, that's the role I've taken.
- [22:11]
Bridget Todd
Let's take a quick break. We're lost. It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.
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Jeremy Carrasco
Nah, I'm just kidding.
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Let me get my phone out.
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Bridget Todd
How is their signal out here?
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Bridget Todd
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Bridget Todd
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Jeremy Carrasco
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- [25:26]
Bridget Todd
And we're back. I've been talking about digital blackface, both AI generated and otherwise, for a while. Like when Google's VO3 first came out and racist skits depicting AI generated black women as gorillas or depicting AI generated enslaved people on plantations flooded TikTok. I really thought that tech platforms should have had to answer for it, but I was pretty much screaming into the void and stuff like that just became more and more ubiquitous. Earlier this year, a black student researcher named Angel Nulani reached out to Jeremy. Angel had been seeing those very same overtly racist AI generated videos depicting black women. She had found 40 social media accounts with AI generated black women that perpetuated racist and anti black behavior. And angel told Jeremy how it feels to use social media platforms as a black woman when those same platforms are awash in this kind of racist, misogynistic garbage, she said. What upsets me is not that these characters are self hating, but that there is no self for the majority of the people who are behind these accounts. The only black people they know are the women they generated. They were not born black, they chose to be black, and yet they spend so much time distancing themselves from it. An All Lives Matter shirt can be paired with booty shorts. Crime statistics can be overlaid on thirst traps. Videos crying over their features are spliced between suggestive yoga poses. It's not enough to pander to people that say EBONY more than African, because the appeal is not simply a black woman desiring white men. The appeal is a black woman desiring a complete absorption into whiteness. The men they attract are not suitors, they're saviors. I've tried so hard to disassociate as a black woman that's been online since I was young. I assumed I saw it all. Nothing really hurt me at first. All I wanted was to be objective and rational and done with it. But this cuts me down to my core. So that's what angel told Jeremy, and I really understand how she feels. In a collaborative investigation with the BBC, Jeremy worked to uncover 100 social media accounts that depict the likenesses of Black women through AI generated characters. TikTok took action and removed some of these accounts from their platform, and I'm really glad they did. But Jeremy says that doing work like this sometimes just feels weird because the content is so deeply racist and exploitative and gross. But he's also very aware that it isn't really his pain to bear, like it is for black women like me and Angel. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this, and I wasn't even sure how to ask this. We have been talking about digital blackface for a very long time. Both AI Generated and other kinds of what I would consider to be digital blackface. We did an episode about it way back when in 2022 where this like, AI generated rapper named FN Meka was released. We had a whole conversation about it. When Sora and VO3 were being used to create these skits that I think you and I would probably agree are like essentially digital minstrel shows. We did an episode about it. I don't know, in my opinion, that especially when VO3 and Sora were becoming things, that was like an urgent moment to me. I was like, this is. We need to have this conversation. And I was kind of surprised that that moment did not get the traction as, like, an urgent change that I would have thought it would. When I came across your videos, I was, like, quite thrilled to see them getting such traction, especially the videos that are about, you know, race and the way that black women are depicted in these things. And I guess my question. And I'm not even sure if this is something you could speak to, but do you think there is an element of, like, who is the messenger here? Because I wonder if, like, me as a black woman saying, these videos make me feel xyz. These videos are trafficking an xyz misogynistic racist trope. I think that there's something where a lot of people can just be like, oh, it's just black women complaining about something again. And then when you speak about it not just from the perspective of a white man, but also somebody who, you know, has this technical background. Like in your substack piece, you really break down, like, the color gradients of why the. The kinds of skin that is depiction and depicted in some of these videos is actually impossible and what that means. I am really grateful and happy that you are talking about this and, And. And amplifying it. But I wonder if, like, if there's like, a thing with the messenger there where it's more people are more like, oh, well, this kind of technical guy is saying it, so we better pay attention.
- [30:25]
Jeremy Carrasco
I agree. I think that that's pretty likely. I also am very uncomfortable with that because, like, I know that's why. So I'll say I actually have not talked about this. It's a great time to do it. So the way that I found out about the. Well, not found out. So I had seen other. The AI generated sexualized black women before, and I feel uncomfortable talking about it because I think that the depiction is quite harmful. And what actually made me write that article was I had a young woman who. She's black, and she had found a lot of these accounts and she sent them, and she's credited in the piece. Her name's Angel Nalani. And I was really thankful that she was there because she was able to be, like, the emotional core. And I didn't feel like I was taking advantage of something, so I felt really bad. I don't want to get views on something exploitative. I don't. Like. I do feel like a discomfort here, and I think that it's a discomfort on so many levels. It's all new. It's like, this is. This is all, like, quite new, like, the technology layer, obviously, you know, Racist depictions and digital blackface aren't anything new, but, like, this is a new kind of intersection of, like, technology and race. And so I think it's like a really difficult thing to navigate. So the reason I'm answering this way is, like, I agree that there's something there. I struggle to navigate it because I really don't want to be taking advantage of these stories any more than I should be. I would love other people to talk about it. And my opportunity to Platform angel is someone who, like, I want you to be in this piece because you came to me. This is personally affecting you. You told me that this is a difficult thing for you to go through. I want to pay you to do this so that you can be a part of this. And I don't think that's like, I'm not doing that to like, pat myself on the back or something. I'm just like, I'm aware of the discomfort there and it doesn't like, I'm very, very meta aware of this. I think that just kind of the nature, like, I'm very careful about, like, you know, the language and it's actually, it keeps me from making a lot of videos. Sometimes it, like, definitely puts a pause because I don't want to make the problem worse by showing more depictions. When we told, when we did the story that you're referencing, we, we went through a ton of different variations on if we were even going to show the depictions, if we were even going, like, how we were going to show them. When we worked with the BBC, the BBC decided not to name any of. Any of these accounts. We decided to name the accounts. That's a difference in how we decided harm could be done. Right. The BBC decided that by directing people to these, it could be harmful, whereas I wanted to call them out. And, and so I think that there just isn't one answer. And I'm seeing, I'm seeing those things all play out in real time and navigating them and just kind of doing my best. But I agree and I do hope that, you know, I can provide any sort of platform I can to people who aren't white men to, to help, because it's, it's not. It really is like, AI is very good at making a lot of identities really quickly. It's going to impact a lot of different types of people.
- [33:45]
Bridget Todd
Yeah, it was really clear from the piece, the intention and care and thought that you would put into kind of framing it. And it is like just a tough, gross thing to have to talk about the Quotes from Angel I thought really were so resonant. She says, like, I'm terrified to think there's a little black girl somewhere feeling as terrible as I do right now because some guy in Malta wanted to make three euro a month. Or, you know, they make us seem so ugly, but we're so beautiful, like, all of these. I just was really moved by a lot of what she had to say, and so I'm grateful that her voice was included in the, like, throughout the piece. And it just is very clear that you all are taking very intentional steps to talk about something that is, like, sensitive and tough and thorny to talk about, because I don't feel like everybody would be. A lot of people would be like, what a scoop. Can't wait to get a million views on this TikTok about horrible, racist, ugly depictions of black women.
- [34:43]
Jeremy Carrasco
I, I also. There are similar things happening with the way that children are depicted online that have been very troubling for me. A lot of stuff related to, like, frankly, there was one, like, example I could give. And this is not, this is not to say that someone is doing this the wrong way or right way. I'm just, I'm just, like, stating the difference that I would cover and how I would cover it. Like, there were a lot of AI depictions of girls with Jeffrey Epstein that got a lot of views by people on Instagram who were, like, pointing out at me, like, this is wrong and, like, I don't feel comfortable doing that. I just, I don't, I don't feel like there's a responsible way for me to cover that. And so, like, when I was doing, when I, when I did videos about the piece we're talking about, like, I had, I decided to blur them all out because I don't want to be trafficking them the same, like, shock value that a lot of these have. Like, there is a lot of shock value here. Now, I think that's unfair, but I, again, I don't think that there's one right or wrong way to do it. I think that it depends who your audience is and, and what your angle is.
- [35:48]
Bridget Todd
Thanks to Jeremy's investigation alongside the BBC, within three days, TikTok banned 20 of the 37 accounts that his team found pumping out this racist AI generated content. TikTok also applied AI generated labels to the videos that Jeremy and his colleagues pointed out. So we're talking about this investigation you did with the BBC. From that investigation, TikTok banned 20 accounts for using these AI generated black women influencers to drive to sites Some of them were driving to like porn sites where you could then pay, like, pay for porn. The accounts are, they're upsetting, I guess I'll say.
- [36:29]
Jeremy Carrasco
They're overtly racist.
- [36:30]
Bridget Todd
Yeah, they're overtly racist.
- [36:31]
Jeremy Carrasco
They're bad.
- [36:32]
Bridget Todd
Yeah. And a lot of the comments, a lot of the posts will kind of use these like race play terms. Like, the post will be like, I love white men and things like that. It's clear to me what's going on. But I think to your point, it's one of those things that, like, it's difficult to talk about. Like, oh, someone has figured out that using super racist depictions of black women might generate clicks back to this pay porn site. And to the point that you made earlier, there are certainly, you know, adult content that is super racist and horrible and violent. But the idea that you can create that kind of content without a human. Right. So like all of the harm that you, that would be resulting of that, you could do that without any person signing up and consenting and being like, okay, I'll do this. Like, you can just make it quickly and cheaply.
- [37:27]
Jeremy Carrasco
You can. I. There does still have to be a human in the loop right now, just to be clear. So like, I think we still have to remember that. But there are very few. And so it just takes one person rather than a team of people and someone to be like, this probably isn't the right thing to do. And then there are people who are just intentionally making racist depictions and know it and they don't care. And this is a very cynical way to just, to view how to use these tools. And so I, you know, I think that there, there are different types of accounts. That's something else I wanted to say. Like there are accounts that are run internationally that are not as overtly racist and they really are just using like a black woman's likeness, which is problematic, but they aren't doing anything different than a similar white character that they might be running. So they're just like running different identities. But, you know, so there were, there were a gamut, you know, we found like 136 different accounts and they weren't all the same. But there were a lot of trends, for sure. And I would say that probably over a third were overtly racist and over a half were suggestive or at least like dabbled in race play terminology in some sort of direct way. And then there were some that were just like way too far even, even for Instagram. And Instagram didn't take as many down. But Instagram took a few down that were extremely problematic too. So yeah, there were, there were a lot of them, but they had a lot of the same patterns.
- [38:53]
Bridget Todd
Do you have a sense of where videos like this originate from in the world?
- [38:59]
Jeremy Carrasco
Everywhere. It is an international problem. Like we, we did track across, I think it was five different continents. I think Australia wasn't included, Antarctica wasn't included. So those are the only two not included. It was pretty, what. It was pretty wide ranging, I would say. I think a lot of people will make assumptions, but this is something that anyone can do from really anywhere in the world. And there were operations run, so there were accounts that were run by content farms and then there were, you know, solo accounts. It's a pretty wide range. So I try not to, to pin it down anywhere. But you can, you can get location data from Instagram, especially if they let you see it. And those can be spoofed too. So it's not always the most accurate, but it at least tells you that there's a range.
- [39:50]
Bridget Todd
Let me ask you this. So I know that TikTok did take down a lot of these accounts. Instagram was like, they're actually, we're looking into it. What, what explains the difference there?
- [40:04]
Jeremy Carrasco
So TikTok will. So TikTok actually cited exactly the policy that they broke and they were very direct about it. And part of the difference is that Instagram doesn't have as directive language about this in their policies and their terms of service. Their inauthentic media is more protecting real people from being deep faked or copied. Whereas TikTok takes a broader view of inauthentic behavior. So that's, that's the first difference. The second difference is that Instagram is just generally where a lot of this content is and that's because it is more permissible of it. So like there were I think 96 accounts that we tracked on Instagram and it might have been 36 on TikTok or something along those lines. And like the fact that we reported more of them and few of them got taken down on Instagram is also why there are more on Instagram. So it's a little bit of like a, a self replicating cycle there that Instagram has built. That also means ironically that videos I do about it do better on Instagram too. So it's like it's affecting everyone. If I make a video that includes so much as like an AI woman wearing a bikini, I have to blur that on TikTok, otherwise it'll, it'll get shadow, you know, Deprioritized. Right. Like these are just things we're aware of as creators. So it's, it is consistent with how they each run their platform. I think that's what I'm trying to say.
- [41:34]
Bridget Todd
Yeah, that makes sense to me. Just as someone who has covered a lot of meta and their policies and how they abide by or don't abide by those policies, what you're saying really checks out to me. I guess I'll checks out. Yeah, not so much.
- [41:46]
Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah, I didn't have to think that hard about it. It was consistent.
- [41:49]
Bridget Todd
Consistent. That's a good way to put it. One of the videos that you talked about in the piece took a real model from Malaysia and then gives her that impossibly dark skin using AI. And just as a black woman, to me like it almost feels like it is using technology to create this impossible standard of beauty where you where it's a woman who is not black who has so like of course has non black features but then has not just dark skin but like impossibly dark skin. And I guess I just feel that it's really is using technology to create these people that cannot exist. But, but of course like also then sets an existing beauty standard despite that standard being impossible.
- [42:36]
Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah. I got so frustrated and that's why I actually did the whole thing about actually detecting the undertones to prove that these skin tones were impossibly black. Because people would be like, oh no, there really are people that, with that dark a pigmentation I'm like, no there aren't. Like they have no undertones. And I actually like, I actually found the people they were talking about and I put them on vectorscopes. I'm like, I can tell there's a scientific difference here. There is, there is a difference. And you know, it's like the, the models that would create these are open source models. So they don't have the guardrails to prevent you from doing this anyway. I don't know if there are guardrails. I haven't, I haven't tried to make many impossibly black characters. I'm not very interested in doing it. I don't know if you're allowed to do it like Google's AI's for example. I could probably test it. But the ones that they were using are open source anyway that can create sexual content like, like Sora, which is closing down soon Veo even like midjourney. Like these like big names have guardrails. So they're using open source models that are a Little bit less high quality but can make sexual content. So it's. They're much harder to stop.
- [43:53]
Bridget Todd
More. After a quick break, We're lost. It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.
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Nah, I'm just kidding.
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How is their signal out here?
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- [47:09]
Bridget Todd
Let's get right back into it. The last time I did a deep dive into AI generated content on social media, I noticed just how often people who make this kind of content insist that you too can make passive income just by setting up an AI influencer. Now, I had no proof, but the whole thing just had the whiff of a scam to me. Like when a girl you went to high school with DMs you about a business opportunity where you can make lots of money and be your own boss from home. You know, when we first did our episode, when VO3 and Sora were first like becoming things, one of the things that I I was, it was the, it was early days and I haven't really revisited it since. But one of the things I saw a lot about this kind of content was it had a lot of almost like an MLM quality to it where people would be making kind of not all racist, but some really racist depictions of black people using AI and then there'd be sort of a like, oh, and you could I make so much money from this. I can teach you how to do it too. I can teach you how to create an AI influencer and start making cash. And at the time I had no idea. But my, my thought was I was like, I think that this is one of those things where I don't know that a lot of AI influencers are making a lot of money because if they were, they probably wouldn't also be selling the like like the like course on how to make money. Because that seems like the grift here. I don't know what, what are your thoughts on that?
- [48:43]
Jeremy Carrasco
It is both. So some of the most racist ones were what you were talking about where they were primarily selling courses to people. And the reason that most racist because they're mostly trying to grab people, usually men who are creating these. And so it's like the shock value that gets you to look and then say like, oh, maybe I could do this. Which is saying a lot about like the type of people that oftentimes create this. And I mean, yeah, anyway, so the, the, the ones that are making money are oftentimes like your bigger accounts and a lot of those aren't selling like AI making courses. So like they are actually making money primarily on the off site porn sites that they direct people to their, their media. And I have not bought any of this just to be clear. But like the prices for the AI content they're selling are like really ridiculously high. So you can tell what that means. They're trying to get like what betters would just call whales. Like they're trying to just get some people who just have a bunch of money to spend and like that's how they make it. So you know, they get their big audience on Instagram and they just hope that, I don't know, maybe 100 people spend a bunch of money on their off, on their off sites and that's how they're doing it. But there's a bit of both.
- [49:56]
Bridget Todd
What role do you see I having on the influencer economy?
- [50:00]
Jeremy Carrasco
I'm, I'm pretty worried about it, lowering rates for everyone. I don't know too much about the influencer economy, ironically, because I don't take sponsorships. So I haven't seen it like firsthand. But I think that the concern is that a lot of those like direct consumer style advertisements can just be made using AI. Now whether or not they will is a different question. It is still something that is pretty easily caught and pretty embarrassing. But a lot of brands aren't doing their own marketing, they're going to agencies and they might be pretty hands off like for some reason. I've seen a lot of AI advertisements for like Cetaphil, the skincare.
- [50:44]
Bridget Todd
Oh, interesting. I use that every day.
- [50:47]
Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah, but I don't think that they're doing it. I think that someone is making the ads and then doing an affiliate link on Amazon. So it's like that's the other tricky thing is you don't always know if they are actually associated with it or it's just like an Amazon affiliate thing. So it's tricky to tell. But I mean, obviously a lot of the AI companies are selling this as, yeah, you can just have AI influencers and not communicate with regular influencers. But I also think that the reason people like regular influencers because they have a relationship with them. So I think they're also missing the point.
- [51:23]
Bridget Todd
Yeah, we talk about that a lot. You know, we. The, the reason why, like, like, as a podcaster, people are often like, oh, you know, are you worried about AI podcasters coming for your job and your whole podcast could be AI one day? Not really. I'm not really that worried about it. I don't like the idea of it, but I know that the reason why people come to podcasts and my podcast, but podcasts in general is for things that AI is not so good at, fostering trust, authenticity, a connection with a real human. I just don't. I mean, if people wanted to listen to AI podcasts, there are plenty of AI podcasts that exist already. You could go listen to them right now. People aren't listening to them right now. And I think there's a reason for that.
- [52:04]
Jeremy Carrasco
It's just a general misunderstanding. And I think a little bit like, people don't think much of social media or they think, they don't think about, like, why people are actually on social media media or why people are listening to podcasts instead of the other types of media that they know people are watching less of. And it's generally because it's more personal or it feels more authentic to them. So I don't think that's changing anytime soon. There will be people who don't value that as much who might switch more to the AI versions. I am worried about that again, like maybe being a negotiating tactic if you're an advertiser, like, well, I can just get an AI to do it. And you know, it's like, well, can you? I don't know. But that could at least be a tactic. So I think that it still comes with risk, but I don't worry about it as much as I would if I were like a purely transactional TikTok shop creator. Maybe then I, then I might be a little bit worried.
- [52:57]
Bridget Todd
Yes. And I have found that so much, at least in the podcast space, so much of the conversation of like, oh, AI can replace humans is being. It's hype that is being promoted by people who are selling AI tools. And so they have. They are invested in people believing, especially like decision makers and people who are writing the checks. They have an investment in those people believing that this, that that is what people want when even if maybe it isn't.
- [53:19]
Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah, absolutely. And so many people are selling it. It does feel a little bit NFT. A little bit. A little bit, you know, web 3 era where it's just like you feel like you have to get people in on it ironically. You really don't need with, with crypto you other people to buy in for it to go well. You don't need to do that here. But like a lot of those people are, are coming over to the AI product space and vibe coding apps and stuff like that. So. Yeah, I absolutely agree. That's, that's the kind of vibe it has to me.
- [53:49]
Bridget Todd
And of course it always comes down to the thing that you flagged as the piece that worries you is how can we underpay and undercut human labor? How can we disrespect human labor? I hate that that's always what it comes back to, but that does seem to be what it always comes back to.
- [54:06]
Jeremy Carrasco
Yeah, and, and again, I would just remind people that like people do like working with other people and like, I think small businesses are, you know, going to keep working with other people. A lot of the bigger corporations I'd be probably a little bit more worried about if, if I were them. But I mean, it's going to happen like natural, like technology will keep happening. And I think it is unclear if this is actually just to be clear, moving faster than any other like normal technology would do insofar as like how it's impacting labor. A lot of like layoffs that are being done are done in the name of AI, but are really efficiency cuts maybe from over, over hiring of COVID Like, I don't know these things, they're not transparent about it. I think it's very likely that AI will have a massive impact on labor. I think that that is, I mean, almost guaranteed at this point, if I'm being honest. And yet like, I think that it will also go by many names. They might be more excited to call things AI because that does have usually positive benefits to their stock value. So like, we just have to be careful not to like overhype it even when it is a real risk.
- [55:14]
Bridget Todd
Very well put. And I've heard you mention that you think that AI detection will eventually be outpaced by AI quality improvements. I don't know if this is a question that you can answer, but do you how urgent is that window? What needs to happen before that window closes?
- [55:32]
Jeremy Carrasco
So I don't think that software detection is going to save us Here, at least not in the next few years. And I think that people assume it will. I don't know why, except for the fact that they're used to software solving their problems. But there's no indication that we're really that close here, if I'm being honest. Like AI photo detection is not that good. AI video detection is very bad right now. You still have media literacy tells right now that are very helpful. And if you're a platform like you have access to that data and you should probably take it more seriously in my opinion. But their moderation is so under resourced that they're not doing that. So there's like a lot of problems kind of all converging at once. But I think that we have an opportunity right now to figure out what is real or not like a little bit more on a day to day basis. And as AI video and photo keeps improving, it's just going to keep getting harder, just like trying to be realist about that. So I would like platforms to take it more seriously now because it is technically still a little bit possible and we don't know where it's going to be in the future. I don't think that it's going to be completely undetectable anytime soon. But that's not really what I'm worried about. I'm more worried about it making people believe that real things aren't real en masse than, than anything else.
- [56:49]
Bridget Todd
Yeah, I mean, I guess to sort of wrap it up here, I think that you often are kind of seen as like the AI deepfake, spotter, debunker guy on the Internet. But as you mentioned, it's really more of a broader set of media literacy tools. Do you have tips for what folks should be looking out for? Full disclosure, I've admitted it on the podcast. It turns out I have a real blind spot for AI generated animal videos and I've kind of been put in group chat timeout because my friends are like, it's AI girl. Are you not seeing this? Those bunnies are not jumping on this guy's tummy. It's fake. So give us some tips for what we can do to be a little bit sharper when it comes to media literacy, given all of this.
- [57:37]
Jeremy Carrasco
So the first is, I think reposts accounts are pretty much dead to me. I just don't think that they're useful anymore. I think they're really likely to repost AI content right now. And part of the reason is that if you're not getting like algorithms make it Possible to just get things from original sources. Like you don't need another reposter to curate your algorithm for you. That's, that's one thing. The second is that, and this goes to a little bit of like, why right now is important is even if AI videos get much better in the coming months, that means that, that accounts are going to have to keep like updating their content, deleting their old stuff. That's more obviously AI. So as of now, a lot of deceptive AI accounts are less than four months old. Or you can scroll back to their old content and be like, okay, that's more clearly AI generated. If you were ever good at spotting it before, if you aren't good at spotting it before, then that might not be that helpful for you. And the other thing is just really spend more time watching like people and creators you trust rather than having the algorithm decide for you because the algorithm can't figure out what's real any better than you can right now. So I think like I spend probably less time watching AI videos than other people because I watch more long form content and like less long form content is AI generated unless it's faceless YouTube. Like there are exceptions. Unless it's like your AI generated podcast that we are talking about. But you know, I'm really looking for people I trust and following people I trust and trying to tailor my recommendation algorithms to that as well. If you think about it as more of a people problem, it becomes more manageable. It's like, do I trust this source? Do I trust this person? You're not going to be able to just spot your way out of this. It's just not possible. It's going to be exhausting. At the very least, I find that more and more people are tuning out before they are trying to actually figure it out. So take that burden off yourself. Spend more time watching people you trust and less time doom scrolling and trying to figure out what's real. It's just, just, just not going to be a thing we can do for that much longer.
- [59:46]
Bridget Todd
Jeremy, you are a person I trust. Where can folks follow you and all of your content?
- [59:51]
Jeremy Carrasco
I'm at. Jeremy finds AI my handles on all social media and then riddance. AI is our substack and where we do investigations. So check us out there.
- [60:02]
Bridget Todd
Thank you so much for being here. You are such, I mean I really, I get tagged in your content a lot and I'm always like, yep, that's AI or like, oh, interesting, I haven't seen this. So thank you so much for what you're doing. I it really I feel like it makes me smarter and like a better digital citizen I guess. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi. You can reach us@helloangodi.com you can also find transcripts for today's episode@tangodi.com there are no girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our Executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer Michael Amato is our contributing producer. Edited by Joey Pat I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Did you know you can get your prep for free? Mistr provides free prep and doxy pep
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Bridget Todd
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- [62:26]
Jeremy Carrasco
I'm U.S. transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. The sound of a Seatbelt it's one
- [62:32]
T Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser
of the most important sounds in our car.
- [62:34]
Jeremy Carrasco
It means everyone is ready and everyone is safe. The more our kids see us put on our seatbelts, the more natural it is for them to put theirs on too. Make it a priority. Buckle up every time.
- [62:49]
T Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser
Hear the sound.
- [62:50]
Jeremy Carrasco
Make it a habit. Paid for by NHTSA this is an
- [62:56]
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