The Woman Who Designed the Face of the Personal Computer

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "The Woman Who Designed the Face of the Personal Computer"

Podcast: There Are No Girls on the Internet
Host: Bridget Todd (with Annie and Samantha, Stuff Mom Never Told You)
Release Date: March 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special Women's History Month episode is a celebration and act of resistance, shining a spotlight on Susan Kare— the designer whose icons and visual language shaped the earliest Mac computers and, by extension, much of modern personal computing. Host Bridget Todd, along with fellow podcasters Annie and Samantha, explore Kare’s legacy and discuss why women’s creative, often-overlooked contributions have been key to the digital world as we know it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Iconic Susan Kare

• Introduction to Susan Kare
  • Designed the icons, fonts, and visual feel for the early Macintosh computers in the 1980s.
  • Her work made computers approachable and user-friendly for everyday people, not just engineers (03:40).
  • There's a famous picture of Kare in the 1980s, feet up on her desk, embodying cool tech pioneer energy. The hosts urge listeners to Google it:

    "Y’all, please Google a picture of her because it is iconic." – Bridget Todd (08:16)

2. Making Computers Human: Language, Icons, and Emotion

• User-Friendly Design
  • Kare’s icons (the happy Mac, sad Mac, bomb, watch, etc.) made the intimidating world of computers less scary and more intuitive, with clear signals about what was happening (10:01–16:08).

    “When you do something that is bad, it is very obvious that it is bad. It is a bomb. It is a sad face. It could not be more clear...” – Bridget Todd (15:00)

  • Her work continues to influence even non-Mac products, making these visual metaphors part of digital life (17:12).

3. From Fine Art to Digital Revolution

• Kare’s Unconventional Path
  • Kare’s background was in sculpture and visual arts, not computer science (17:18–18:38).
  • Learned grid-based design from her mother through needlepoint and embroidery—skills that translated directly to designing pixel art on early computers.

    “If it wasn’t for her mom teaching her these highly kind of like domestic tasks, we might not like personal computing might have gone a completely different direction.” – Bridget Todd (17:55)

• Takeaway: You don’t need a “hard tech” background to make a huge impact in technology.

4. Underappreciated & Feminized Work

• Recognition and Preservation
  • Tech history tends to highlight men and the technical/engineering aspects, but creative and “softer” work (design, usability) is equally essential.

    “A lot of times, contributions that women made… are harder to preserve. If you make an actual computer, that goes in a museum. If you design an icon or something more ephemeral, it goes overlooked unless we make intentional efforts.” – Bridget Todd (24:34)

  • The hosts discuss why things associated with “feminized” skills (fan fiction, icons, online recipes) are often dismissed, and why this needs to change for a fuller history (25:29–26:55).

5. Creative Skills & Modern Tech

• Relatability and Transferability of Artistic Skills
  • The conversation turns to the importance of arts, music, and well-rounded education in developing the thinking needed for innovation in tech, echoing Kare’s story (33:05–34:38).
    • “You do not have to have tech hard skills to be someone who makes your living or takes up a big footprint in tech.” – Bridget Todd (32:14)

6. Icons, Type, and Lasting Symbols

• The Lasting Power of Kare’s Work
  • The “save” floppy disk icon, a Kare innovation, persists even though new generations may have never seen a floppy disk (35:03–36:21).

    “It’s like one of those things... you want someone to roll down their window, you still do the crank motion even though that hasn’t existed in years.” – Bridget Todd (37:40)

  • Other stories about the copy icon (“copycat in a mirror”), and the process of making visual metaphors simple and effective (38:33–40:00).

7. Kare’s Continuing Impact

• Active & Relevant
  • Kare is still designing today, working at Pinterest—her push pin icon and spinning “refresh” button are in use now (44:40).

    “If you use Pinterest, she’s in your pocket.” – Bridget Todd (44:57)

  • Her original design notebooks are part of major museum collections, cementing her legacy as both artist and technologist.

8. Fonts and Emojis

• Kare created original typefaces for the Mac (like Chicago) and designed the first emoji-like symbol font (“Cairo”), bridging art and technology in expressive new ways (48:06).
• Her designs are recognized as forerunners to the emoji culture that now permeates digital communication (47:25).

9. Inspiration for the Future

• The episode ends with affirmations that all types of creativity are valuable and necessary in tech.

  “She did all of this as a non-technical person. She told the Smithsonian... ‘I always felt so lucky for the opportunity to be a non-technical person in a software group.’” – Bridget Todd (51:24)

• Kies acts as an inspiration not only for those interested in tech, but for everyone who’s ever felt like an outsider or non-traditional participant in a technical field.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m a big believer in giving people their flowers while they’re still alive to smell them.” – Bridget Todd (06:49)
• “If it wasn’t for her mom teaching her how to sew and do needlepoint, truly, I might not be recording this podcast on my MacBook Pro right now.” – Bridget Todd (18:38)
• “You never know what skill is going to apply later in your life.” – Bridget Todd (29:46)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:40 – Introduction to Susan Kare's legacy.
• 08:16 – Iconic photo and first impressions of S. Kare.
• 10:01–17:12 – Discussion of her visual language and impact on computer usability.
• 17:18–18:38 – Kare’s artistic background and translation to digital design; the “needlepoint” connection.
• 23:00–25:29 – Barriers women face in tech recognition and why some work is less preserved/celebrated.
• 33:05–34:38 – Importance of arts education and transferable creative skills.
• 35:03–37:40 – Lasting iconography and design quirks (floppy disk, “save” icon, etc.).
• 44:40–46:26 – Kare's current work at Pinterest and continuing influence.
• 48:06–50:01 – Kare’s fonts and origins of emoji design.

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Legacy & Takeaways

• Susan Kare’s influence: Enduring visual metaphors that shaped not only Apple, but the digital experience everywhere.
• Women’s overlooked contributions: Emphasis on remembering and preserving the “invisible” or ephemeral aspects of tech history often crafted by women.
• Creativity in technology: Non-traditional backgrounds can deeply inform, enrich, and advance technical innovation.
• Call to action: Recognize, celebrate, and actively amplify the contributions of women and marginalized people in technology—past and present.

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Bridget Todd’s podcast, "There Are No Girls on the Internet," continues to champion the stories and legacies too often left out of mainstream tech history, reminding us: true innovation thrives when all voices are included and honored.

Transcript

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[Bridget Todd]

There Are no Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are no Girls on the Internet. March is Women's History Month, and this year, honoring women's contributions feels less like a celebration and frankly, more like an act of resistance. So today I want to introduce you to someone who shapes the way that we all experience technology. Even if you've never heard of her name, Susan Kerr. She designed the visual language of the early Mac. The icons, the fonts, the look and feel that made personal computing something that people actually wanted to touch and use. Back in 2021, I joined my friends Samantha and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never told you'd to dig into Susan Care's legacy, where she came from, what she built, and why it still matters today.

[Annie]

Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff Home Never told you'd a production of iHeartradio. Today we're. We are so thrilled to be joined in the virtual studio space by our friend and colleague, Bridget Todd. Hello, Bridget.

[Samantha]

Hello.

[Bridget Todd]

I'm so excited to be back here with you all.

[Samantha]

I was going to say we missed you. Welcome back.

[Bridget Todd]

Thank you. Thank you. I missed you too. As always.

[Samantha]

You're so busy though. We know. We know you are constantly going.

[Bridget Todd]

Well, I can always make room for my two favorite ladies. Oh, yes,

[Annie]

we were discussing before this. We're very excited for this topic, particularly because we have levels of experience when it comes to computers and technology. And in this case, Samantha, you're saying you don't know Mac very well?

[Samantha]

No. I am so not in the loop. I've never Used the Mac. I don't have an iPhone. I'm so far away from those products, and I'm a little scared of it because every time that I've been on a friends, I literally look at it and touch a button, something goes wrong, and I hand it right back. I'm like, I'm sorry.

[Bridget Todd]

You're like, I launched a missile. I don't know what the I did. I'm sorry.

[Samantha]

I'm pretty sure I just started a war somewhere. I'm so sor.

[Annie]

I really like that, too, though, because my phone is a swipe. And one time my friend handed me her phone and was like, can you text this message? And it was not a swipe. And I stared at it like, this makes no sense to me. I cannot figure this out.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

When it becomes like technology, when you're used to one way and then you try and figure out something else, I feel like it's a trap.

[Bridget Todd]

It's so true. It's so true. So I use an iPhone. Most of my friends do not use iPhones. They use, like, Google Pixels. When I am handed a Google Pixel, it does not matter how many times I have been schooled and had to do the most. The most basic stuff. Right. I'm not talking about anything advanced. I have to ask, like, wait, is it this? Is it that every time without him?

[Annie]

Right. Which actually relates really well to what we're talking about today. So who did you bring for us to discuss? Bridget.

[Bridget Todd]

So today we're discussing Susan Kerr. I'm so excited to talk about her, mostly because so it's Women's History Month, and so I think it's a good time to honor women who, you know, maybe don't always get a lot of the loud public support. And also the fact that Susan Kerr, despite being very much part of tech history, she's still alive. She's still with us. I'm a big believer in giving people their flowers while they're still alive to smell them. And so not waiting until someone is no longer here to be like, oh, I loved their work. I loved their work. But celebrating their achievements and their legacy while they're still here. She's very much still in tech, making tech history as we speak. And I also just feel like sometimes I come on the show and I bring topics that are a little negative because, let's face it, sometimes being a woman on the Internet is not that fun. But there's also lots of fun, joyous, cool, quirky aspects of it as well.

[Annie]

Yes. And I never heard about her Story. And I loved it so much because I know we've talked before on the show a lot about women in technology space and how there is often these negative aspects to it or being intimidated off of it in various ways. And as somebody who's really creative, like, we're in my cosplay closet, as I call it in here. But, like, I love the application of how she got into technology. I think it is such a great story.

[Bridget Todd]

Yes, yes. So let's get into it. I mean, so if you've ever spent any time around not just Macs, but computers in general, you've probably encountered Susan Kerr's work or her legacy. So first and foremost, I should say, if you have not seen a picture of her, there's an iconic picture of her with this like awesome 80s blown out curly hair and a sweatshirt and these like amazing New Balance sneakers with her sneakers kicked up on her desk at her old school computer. Y', all, please Google a picture of her because it is iconic. And truly, just this one picture, I saw it on the subreddit. Old school, cool. I was like, who is this woman? I have to look her up and find out everything about her. She's amazing.

[Annie]

Yes. It's so effortlessly cool in a way that I will never achieve. Like, I saw it and I was like, wow.

[Samantha]

I mean, like, I'm looking at it right now. I have to Google it. And I'm like, this is kind of what people want to look like today, outside of the outdated computers in the background, which, by the way, I use those in elementary school. So don't start with me. Be like. I'm like, no, you are. She is exactly what people are like, oh, we want to look like this. This is such a great throwback. And she looks so comfortable, so relaxed and ridiculously cool. I want to be this cool.

[Bridget Todd]

Yes. She is an advertisement for Everlane. I feel like the normcore vibe. Baggy sweatshirt, relaxed fit jeans. She's rocking it. Honestly, you could wear the outfit that she's wearing in, like 1980, whenever this photo was taken, you could wear today and people will be like, oh, cool outfit. Yes.

[Samantha]

That's what I'm saying. Like, this outfit looks so comfortable. But again, yeah, she looks so freaking stylish that I'm like, I don't want to be back here in this fashion. Because I did wear that once upon a time and that was when it was supposed to be cool when I was a young baby. So

[Bridget Todd]

I love it. So Susan Kerr, she designed a huge part of the digital infrastructure of using A Mac computer back in the 80s. And so I'm talking all of the fonts, all of the typography, and all of the little icons. And so if you ever remember the little happy Mac when you booted up a computer, like the little computer with a smiley face, that was Susan Care. The concept of the icons for your computer sort of matching up with the thing that you were going to do. Even if you don't use a Mac, even if you use a PC, that's still a concept that we use today. So she really was an early architect of how being online sort of looked and felt. And then also just sort of the concept of it, sort of how we conceptually move around when we're using a computer. And it's funny because I had also never heard of her. I've been using a Mac for most of my life. It was like the first computer that we had in our home when I was a kid, like, in what my parents called the computer room, where, like, you could never bring a snack or a drink or my dad would kill you was a Mac. And I had never even heard of her, even though she had shaped such a big part of my online experiences, both as a child and today.

[Samantha]

So the whole story that I had about this, like, this happy Mac, the one reason I kind of know what that is now, I've seen the other things. I've seen the watch little icon before. I feel like a lot of these are associated to me as something bad is about to happen because I did something wrong. Signs usually. Because the one episode that I remember with in Sex and the City, and we're, you know, talking about where her mech crashes and she gets a sad mech, and the dude keeps telling her, you got the sad Mac. Sorry, you can't fix it. And this whole conversation about the sad Mac, and I'm like, why does it have to be a sad Mac? And then the dead Mac because it's got the X's on the eyes. And about how angry it looks. I was like, yeah, that does not make me want to get a Mac.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, I feel like that episode probably scared a lot of people. Also, fun fact, this is how deep my Sex and the City knowledge goes. The guy who tells her that at the computer store, Asif Mandi from the Daily Show.

[Samantha]

Yes, yes, yes. So I was like, oh, he's a comedian. I love it when they bring in comedians that you don't really know, but you always know their face.

[Bridget Todd]

Love it, Love it.

[Samantha]

Annie, you gotta hop on board. This is what you're missing out when you haven't seen Sex and the City.

[Bridget Todd]

Wait, Annie's never seen it.

[Samantha]

She's seen, like, two episodes.

[Annie]

I've seen one the first episode, and that's it. Really?

[Bridget Todd]

Girl, what are you putting on in the background while you're, like, doing something else? Like, what are you putting on in the background when you're doing the dishes? Come on.

[Annie]

I'm ready. I want to. I want to embark on this journey.

[Bridget Todd]

I'm just a little nervous, but I.

[Samantha]

So, Bridget, when we have our Sex in the City, we're going to do a watch and, like, kind of a live watching, live viewing party. You want to join us?

[Bridget Todd]

Yes, of course. You know, and they're getting ready to make another view of the movie, which, I mean, I have a love hate relationship with Sex and the City in that you look back and you're like, well, this was problematic. Or like, well, this is not good. But there's just something about it where I'm like, I know I'll probably watch it. I know. They're like, you'll take this problematic movie with a bunch of lazy puns. Just take it. They know what I want.

[Samantha]

But I mean, like, Sarah Jessica Parker's character, Carrie, that Mac at the very beginning, like, all the things, the fact that she carries it around, like, as her treasure, like, she carries it as this. Like, she and the Mac go hand in hand in the show.

[Bridget Todd]

Her work, I feel, is grounded around the Mac. Like, if you kept watching the episode toward the end, when she moves to Paris, she leaves her Mac in her apartment. So, like, Charlotte goes to her apartment and she's like, her computer was just sitting there. Like, it's such a big deal. And it's actually funny that you say this, because when I was thinking through this episode, I didn't think about this, but now I'm like, oh, my God, how many different times have Max been. I'm thinking of Legally Blonde, when Belle woods goes to get her orange Mac and all of her stuffy law students are on their black laptops and she's on the orange Mac.

[Samantha]

Right.

[Bridget Todd]

I guess I had never really thought about how many times Macs have been sort of part of popular culture.

[Samantha]

It has. It kind of goes into, like, being a designer piece almost.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah.

[Annie]

I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to get permission to show Mac. Normally you have to get the companies and pay. But they wanted people to think like, oh, this is a cool, stylish, ubiquitous, smart technology. I think the only time you have to check is if it's something like real, real bad.

[Bridget Todd]

Like real bad. You're using that computer for. Yeah. You're beating Amanda Death with it.

[Annie]

Yeah, I think that's the only time.

[Samantha]

But I mean, like, I remember as I'm looking at some of these things, I remember seeing the little bomb icon as a part of the show as well. And again, like I said, that to me is like a big warning sign.

[Bridget Todd]

I mean, yeah, I don't know what

[Samantha]

the bomb means, but the bomb means something bad.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, the bomb. You see the bomb designed by Susan Kerr, hopefully you never have to see it. But if you put in a command that doesn't work and it's like, oh, no. Good. Bad. And also, I mean, even the different icons that you're describing, the sad Mac, the bomb. One of the things that Susan Kerr really architected was this idea of the interface being super user friendly. So when you do something that is bad, it is very obvious that it is bad. It is a bomb. It is a sad face. It could not be more clear that you have done something or when something is good. You know, when you would boot up a Mac, you would see a smiley face. All of that was intentionally designed by CARE to make people who, you know, might have been using a computer for the first time, who might have been a little bit skittish about using a computer, help them, sort of shepherd them through the experience in ways that are super easy to understand. Which I really appreciate as someone who, even as someone who enjoys tech, can sometimes be a little bit tech challenged, shall we say.

[Samantha]

Right. As I am. It definitely tells me when I'm doing something wrong. Definitely. I'm like, oh, I'm just waiting. Great. And look at that happy face.

[Bridget Todd]

Exactly. Yes.

[Annie]

And those are things you take for granted.

[Bridget Todd]

Right.

[Annie]

Like, somebody had to think through that process and design those things. Especially when computers were so new and people were like, what is this huge behemoth thing? That's expensive. I don't want to wreck it by pressing the wrong button.

[Bridget Todd]

Exactly. And I mean, what's funny is that, like, some people who are a bit younger might be thinking, oh, what's the big deal? But truly keep in mind that back then, in the early days of personal computers, most people did not have a personal computer in their home at that point. And so computers were these big, clunky, boxy nightmares that were really inclined toward mathematicians or engineers, not just like your regular user. And so somebody had to take the time to design ways of illustrating what you were Doing in ways that would be simple and user friendly and not scary, not intimidating. Because if, you know, if the whole idea is that you want people to feel the freedom of having a personal computer like in their house, it has to feel like something they can really master themselves. And so Susan Kerr's design I think was a big part of why personal computing later took on or took off. Took on.

[Samantha]

Right. Her history is pretty interesting. Why don't you tell us how she even got started into this industry?

[Bridget Todd]

So this is my favorite thing. So her background was in. So she was a sculptor, she worked in visual arts. And so she is not someone who has hard technical skills. She described herself as completely non technical. And the reason that she first got involved in graphic design in the first place is because her mom taught her these, these skills that we, I guess commonly associate with femininity. So like needlepoint and embroidery, which luckily those two skills work in small grids. So if you've ever done needlepoint, you know you're moving a thread through like a tiny box. And so when she was designing things on a computer for Apple, it also was a small box. And so if it wasn't for her mom teaching her these highly kind of like domestic tasks, we might not like personal computing might have gone a completely different direction. And so I just love that because it's such a good reminder that you don't have to be a coder, you don't have to be a hacker to make an impression in tech or to have ownership over it. And so I always like to remember that, that if it wasn't for her mom teaching her how to sew and do needlepoint, truly, I might not be recording this podcast on my MacBook Pro right now. Things might look different.

[Annie]

We're lost.

[Bridget Todd]

It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.

[Commercial Narrator]

Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.

[Bridget Todd]

How is their signal out here?

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Bridget Todd]

Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?

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[Annie]

When you're thinking about people you do associate with, particularly Mac, but like technology and computers in general, it is often men and you do often have this assumption that oh there must be like really technically minded and gotten a lot of education in those fields and like the names we remember are them. But this is a huge part, what Susan Kerr did is a huge part of how the technology we use particularly with Max, but in other things and it is what you like a non traditional route and this sort of feminized skill set in this kind of traditionally masculinized or seen as a very masculine field. And I just love it. I love it so much.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, it makes me, it's a good reminder for all of us. You know, I did an interview on my own podcast with this really amazing historian and technologist, Claire Evans, and she has this book all about the history of women in computing. And I guess the thesis would be, you know, that we are often told that technology is a boys club and that women and other marginalized people are trying to like break, break their way in. But actually women have been at the start of computing since the beginning and so it is like rightfully our domain. We are not trying to break in anywhere like it is our landscape and that some of the reasons why women kind of get pushed out of tech, both in terms of careers but also just in terms of who gets remembered, who doesn't, who goes overlooked. First of all, just to be clear, a lot of it is Just good old fashioned sexism. Nothing special about that. But then another aspect of it is exactly what you were saying is that a lot of times the contributions that women have made to computers and technology are things that are a little bit harder to preserve. And so if you make an actual computer that can go in a museum, that's a solid, tangible thing. If you design a concept or do something cool on a message board or develop an icon or you know, something graphic that is, that is less tangible, those things are harder to preserve and sort of more ephemeral. And so a lot of that work throughout the years has been associated with women and feminization. This idea that, like, women are a lot of the times the ones who are building the things that are a little more difficult to hold onto and thus these contributions can really go overlooked unless we make intentional efforts to preserve them, to highlight them, to amplify them, all of that. So. Completely agree. Completely agree, Yes.

[Annie]

I mean, here we are talking about it and because I'll take every opportunity to bring it up, I do think too, like, if you look at something like fan fiction, the website AO3 was one of the biggest coding projects of its time, and it was women who did it. But it doesn't get a lot of respect because it's women and marginalized people who did it. And it's seen as this kind of weird corner of women fandom and not therefore not worth the respect as something else more masculine.

[Bridget Todd]

Right. Technology is nothing without people using it for something. Right. Without users. And so those people who were, who were building that, they were architects of something important. And that we would not even see that as worthy of preservation or mentioning is a real crime. And I think we really do have to go back and look at history and say, well, where are the times where, because this was associated with women or marginalized people just doing something geeky on the Internet, you know how women are, whether it's fan fiction or, you know, recipe blogs or anything like that. Why do those things not deserve to be remembered? In the same way that some of the other more obvious contributions to computing and technology in our digital landscape, Like, I completely agree that we need to have a whole scale sort of rethinking of what, what is worthy of preservation? Because I'm not down to just live in a world where the stuff that we make, that marginalized people, that women make is just not worthy of preservation. No way. Right?

[Annie]

Yeah, absolutely not. Thank you for letting me bring up fan fiction all the time. I cannot help myself. But I also think It's a good correlation to Susan Cair's story where there is this sort of creative, non technical thing that she was involved with and she was able to translate that into technology because there was this need. And I think also, like, again, having to kind of predict what people's concerns would be and like predict what would suit those concerns and be clear, like coming, perhaps coming from a different background actually helped her with that.

[Bridget Todd]

I think so. I love that point. I think so. So she said that when she first got the call to design things for Apple, she was just like, I don't know what any of this is. I love this little detail. She was in the middle of working on a life size sculpture of a hog when she got a. Which like, if that doesn't. If that doesn't tell you all you know about hair. I feel like that really.

[Annie]

Oh, I want to see, I want

[Samantha]

to know she finished it.

[Bridget Todd]

Yes. Oh, that's a good question.

[Samantha]

I want to know. I want to see this picture of what she was working on. Did she get to finish it?

[Annie]

Yes.

[Bridget Todd]

I need a Internet sleuth, please. Elbow deep in hog, right? She gets this call from Andy Hertzfeld, who she had gone to high school with. And he was a member of the original Apple Macintosh development team during the 80s. And he asked her to hand draw some icons and fonts to help inspire what was going to be this Mac interface. This was a completely new concept to her. She's like, I had no idea what I was doing, but. But luckily Andy had an idea because he knew that she worked with design and graphics. He told her to go out and buy the smallest, tiniest graph paper that she could find and then use it to block out 32 by 32 inch squares and fill them with color to kind of come up with the designs. Because what she would be designing would be a matrix that was essentially a grid. So again, back to that sort of needlepoint embroidery upbringing that she had, which really helped her work in this grid function. Like truly probably could not have provided a better basis or education for the work that she would go on to be doing that she had no idea that she would be so foundational in. And luckily these skills really came to her rescue. She says bitmap graphics are like mosaics and needlepoint and other pseudo digital art forms, all of which I had practiced before going to Apple. This is what she told somebody in an interview in 2000. So again, you never know what skill is going to apply later in your life. I'm sure when her mom was teaching her needlepoint. She probably was like, this is really fun and awesome. She probably was not thinking. And I will go on to revolutionize personal computing because you have taught me how to do needlepoint, mom.

[Annie]

Right?

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah.

[Annie]

So I run a Dungeons and Dragons campaign and I use Python coding to run it. So basically Python is a bunch of if then statements. But I think you can, you can take like a really creative, non technical thing and you can construct it in a way where you can like make it work in that sense. Because if you think about like conversation, if X then Y. I don't know, there's something I find really interesting that you can take those things and you can experiment with them in that way. You could take needlepoint and think about it in this way of like coding. Like, I love that stuff.

[Bridget Todd]

Are there other things that you have learned that you feel might help you when you're doing, when you're coding in Python? Like are there other skills that you're like, oh, I wouldn't have thought that this would be something that would help me think about Python, but actually has been helpful.

[Annie]

So something that helps me like use

[Bridget Todd]

Python more or just in general in the work that you do when you're building out these things.

[Annie]

The reason I started doing that is because essentially it's almost exactly like this. You have to, when you're running a game, you have to predict what people are going to do. And that could be anything, right? Like that could be literally anything. And so it's like project management where you have to analyze a person and then try to make that work in a game system. Right? Like in a kind of technical rule based game. So you've got this like really illogical, chaotic person. Now I've got to make that work in a way where I can say like if X then Y, so the game doesn't break. So I would say like reading people and project management because again, a lot of interactions in life, it's almost cold to think of it this way. But you can see in a technical sense of like person, why needs this. Therefore these actions happen. Like you can map out to a certain extent people and their behavior.

[Bridget Todd]

That's so fascinating.

[Samantha]

It's a whole theorem. You have to do all these little like hypothesis of this may happen. So you have to problem solve ahead of time, which I know nothing about Dungeons and Dragons. Just what she tells me.

[Annie]

It's wild.

[Bridget Todd]

I mean it completely fits. And I think if you take that to its logical next step, like in tech workplaces and stuff. This is why I Always say, if you're someone who's listening and you're like, I want to be more involved in tech, I want to work in a tech space. You do not have to have tech hard skills to be someone who makes your living or takes up a big footprint in tech. People need to have people reading skills, problem solving skills, critical thinking skills. Those are not, you know, necessarily what we think of as like tech hard skills. But these are all things that go into, you know, working, like being able to think in this way. And so I just love this example because I think it really does illustrate how all of these different skills that aren't necessarily the hard skill or knowing Python or knowing, you know, knowing the code, they will help you when you're, when you're doing these kinds of things, it's like a whole way of thinking. I love that example.

[Samantha]

I mean, there's definitely a whole correlation between art, music and math. And we know that that's been proven to be a linkage and which is why when people talk about losing arts and losing music is really detrimental for a lot of kids learnings and just overall development. And this is one of those more things because not only was she doing art, which she's amazing at, which I saw some of the pieces that she's selling now, I'm like, wow, gorgeous. But that, that translated into, yeah, these little squares and dots in which also equals numbers and such. This is me knowing all this stuff obviously. But the fact that it's a greater picture of how it's all correlated and it is linked.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's why I obviously am such a big advocate for young people going into STEM and steam fields and get, and getting that kind of education. But, but I also think you're exactly right that you have to have a well rounded approach. And so if we lose the arts, if we lose music and the funding for these things, when people are like, oh well, just learn to code and get a job like that, it'll be so much harder if these students are not well rounded students who do not have a well rounded arts education. And so, you know, I am an English major, right? Like I did not have a hard skills background. So many people who made it a big splash in tech had arts degrees, humanities degrees, you know, studied music, studied literature. And so I definitely am a big advocate for a well rounded approach. I am not someone who is like, oh, just learn to code, that'll solve all your problems. Because we do need all kinds of skills to have, you know, young people who are really equipped to go into these fields.

[Annie]

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things in this story, in Susan Carey's story is one of my favorite kind of random. I guess it's a good tell of when you grew up in terms of technology, when you're talking about her legacy. Because if you examine some of these symbols, like my ex boyfriend used to argue so hard, like, we need to redefine what these mean because they don't mean the same thing anymore.

[Bridget Todd]

Right.

[Annie]

One is the icon for saving. If you could talk about that.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, it is such a good one. So Susan Kerr came up with that concept of. Of the icon being an association or an illustration of the thing that you were doing. So like the paint bucket being used to fill a surface with color, or like the scissors being used to be the cut function. So when you think about the save function. Right. So if you are a contemporary of me and I think Annie and Samantha, I think you got you all as well. When you were saving something, you had to save it on a floppy disk. You could put a floppy disk that square with the metal thingy on it into your computer. And not only that, you had to manually hit save every, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes. Otherwise it wouldn't save. Now here in 2021, you're probably working in Google Docs or some other kind of interface. It saves it automatically. You don't have to put any kind of external thing into your computer for it to save. This concept is so different, yet the little disk, it's still the image for save. And so I almost wonder, like, I don't know that young people know what that, like, they're probably not as innately familiar with, like, the floppy disk as they are. Yet that is still the icon for save, even though you don't even really have to save like you used to. Right. It's, like, funny how it's endured.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

Oh, my God, you just reminded me. We did a time capsule, I think, in my eighth grade, sixth grade year. And I think I put in a thing of floppy disks, like, blank ones. Time capsule, yeah.

[Bridget Todd]

God, I have a lot of floppy disk memories. I remember. Oh, my God, if he's listening to this, he's gonna kill me. My older brother, he had to do a class project, and at the time we were fighting, and I remember he had it on a floppy disk that he left on the computer, and I swapped it out with a blank one. So, like, I put his. I put his in my backpack and put a blank one on the computer. So when he got to school, he was like, wait, where's my project?

[Samantha]

Oh, that's mean. That's petty.

[Bridget Todd]

It was very petty. It was very petty. If he's listening to this, I apologize, but, you know, your deserved it, but

[Annie]

you got what you deserve on your side, Bridget.

[Samantha]

Yes, thank you. But, yeah, no, I just remembered that because I knew that it would be outdated by that point. I was right.

[Bridget Todd]

You were right. You were. You were like, prophetic here.

[Samantha]

Yeah, I know, right? I'm sure it costs a lot of money, so. I can't believe I did that.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, they used to be hella expensive. Like, a box of them was like $30.

[Samantha]

Yeah. I'm kind of reminded, like, why. Maybe I put one. I just remember putting something to do with the fl. Like, I'm gonna put this in here because it's gonna make it dumb.

[Bridget Todd]

I love it. It's like one of those things. You know how I think some comedian has this. This line in his standup where when you're driving and you want someone to roll down their window, even though most cars no longer have the crank, that's still the motion that you do to tell someone. Even though you're like, well, the cars haven't really had this for a while. Why am I doing this? That's still the enduring motion that you

[Samantha]

do, but it keeps it. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, she created this in the 80s, and it's still iconic and it's still used today. And even though I may not have known what a Mac was, it was definitely universally used.

[Annie]

Right. Well, and that's funny to think about too, because there's some technologies, like the floppy disk that did just go by the wayside. And that's one of my favorite things of Back to the Future too. When they thought the fax machine was going to be the thing. But like, the. You have a story in here about, like, a copy machine, right.

[Bridget Todd]

So she was initially going to have the copy function be a little illustration of a copy machine that you would drag and drop your file that you wanted to be duplicated onto the copier. But copy machines are, like, kind of complicated and, like, difficult to render at that size. And so that didn't work. And then she got this idea to try an illustration of a cat in a mirror, which I feel like that really tells me a lot about how she was thinking about these illustrations. Like, that's a really. Like using a cat looking into a mirror as a way to illustrate the copy functionality. I don't know. I just find that to Be a very interesting manifestation of what the copy function does. You know what I mean, right? Yes.

[Samantha]

Maybe because it started with a C, but I approve of that. I want that now.

[Annie]

I know. I wish that was the case. That's the direction we've gone. And I can just imagine, I mean that would be iconic if that is what it was like today. That'd be on shirts. Cat just staring into the mirror.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah. The copycat.

[Samantha]

I was like a copycat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Annie]

I love it. It's so good.

[Bridget Todd]

That is a creative mind, like perhaps not the most intuitive like that. Like, I think that what she ended up going with was like much better. But it's like I can sort of see her logic, I guess, in what she was going for with the copycat in the mirror. Yes.

[Annie]

It's so good.

[Samantha]

I'm good with it. I would have approved that immediately.

[Annie]

We're lost.

[Bridget Todd]

It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.

[Commercial Narrator]

Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.

[Bridget Todd]

How is there signal out here?

[Commercial Narrator]

T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together. So the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn actually.

[Samantha]

Can you pull up the way to

[Bridget Todd]

a T Mobile store?

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[Annie]

So at the top, you said that care is still alive today. What she. What's she up to?

[Bridget Todd]

So that's my favorite thing about this story, is that I feel so often when we're talking about somebody who had a great impact, we're talking about them after they have, you know, aged out of whatever they're doing or they passed away, not care. Care is still very much alive and very much involved in tech. So today she works at Pinterest, where you are probably familiar if you use Pinterest with some of her current designs. She designed the image on Pinterest that is modeled after the push pin that symbolizes pinning an item. So again, that kind of idea of having the icon be kind of a visualization of what the user is supposed to be doing. And the spinning button that appears on Pinterest when you refresh so very much. Still a person involved in imagining what tech looks like today. The tech that we use all the time. If you use Pinterest, she's in your pocket. Her designs are in your pocket, you know, which I just. I just love. Yeah. You can also find her notebooks today. They're part of the permanent collections at the New York and San Francisco Modern Art Museum, which, the one in New York is my favorite art museum on the planet. It's so cool. And one was included in the recent London Design museum exhibit called Designing Freedom. So. So, yeah, she still is this, you know, representing this past and present and perhaps future of design when it comes to tech, you know, still out there, still shaping how we conceptualize the tech that we use every day.

[Annie]

I love that so much. And I just realized that I guess if you look at movies or TV show, that's another application where it's not necessarily a real world application, but if you were a designer and you're designing, like something sci fi, what will this look like in the future? What does this, like technology or button or whatever represent and then being able to communicate that to audiences. So, yeah, there's a lot of applications here.

[Bridget Todd]

Definitely. Definitely.

[Annie]

Did you say Samantha, she has art

[Bridget Todd]

you can still get?

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, yes. She had a collection where some of the. And I don't know Samantha, I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but if you go to terraprints.com, you can find her limited edition print prints and they include, like, the, like, little logos and things that she designed. You can get, like, the sad Mac on a poster or the time bomb on a T shirt. Right. Like, some of her stuff is really nice. Like, I really wouldn't mind one of these blankets that have all these different icons on it that she designed. And what's funny is that when you go to taraprints.com, they talk about how she was one of the original originators of what we think of today as emojis. And so I hadn't even really thought about that. That her designs is why. And I'm emoji obsessed. If you ever text me, get ready to get a million emojis. But, yeah, just how fundamental that is in terms of how we think of representing things online. Yes.

[Annie]

And that's another great example of what we were talking about earlier, where emojis filled a gap that was missing. Right. And we had to kind of envision, what are these emotions? What is this trying to convey? And, like, that is another example of something that's kind of artistic, but being in this very kind of technical world. Right.

[Samantha]

Also, Annie, I don't know. This is what I read earlier. It has something that is related to your superpower, one of your useless superpowers, which is including fun fonts or type face you can recognize.

[Annie]

I wasn't sure which superpower of emotions

[Samantha]

when I was calling you out, which I'm like, I don't know. You could be lying to me, just randomly naming a font and I'm just believing you. But, yeah, because, like, Chicago was one of the. I know that was one of her first typefaces is what it called. And then the emojis, which was. Is it Cairo? Is that how you say that? C H. That's right. I R O. But that's the blanket. Right. So she went even further into the world of. Of computer stuffs. I'm so official, y'.

[Bridget Todd]

All. I'm amazing.

[Samantha]

But the fact that she actually created typeface. I actually created, like, fonts is an interesting thing, because I've always wondered, who does this? And also, Annie, why do you know these? Could you recognize what Chicago looks like? Chicago 12, I want to test you

[Annie]

now for the listeners who don't know this, I have a very useless superpower. It's not as good anymore because I used to edit video all the time.

[Bridget Todd]

Time.

[Annie]

And I actually would. Because a font does convey an emotion. It does help shape whatever.

[Samantha]

You love Comic Sans, right? No.

[Annie]

Futura. That's what everybody loves. And so I Can recognize a font. Like, it is one of my most annoying. You get a little alcohol on me and I'll be like, there's Futura. There's Nancy's chalkboard. I apologize to anyone I've ever done that to.

[Bridget Todd]

Do you have a favorite font?

[Annie]

Oh, that's a good question. Cause I used to really love. I loved the ones that looked like people's handwriting. So I did really, like marker felt one with a very little bit of drop shadow.

[Bridget Todd]

Very little.

[Annie]

Or like Nancy's. I like Nancy's chalkboard, but I don't know if I would say those are my favorite, but they were ones I turned to a lot because they. I wanted those videos to feel very approachable, which is actually the stuff I've never told you videos. So they're on YouTube and you can go look at all my chalk and marker based fonts.

[Bridget Todd]

I need to do this right away. I also love a good font. You know, like, I'm not even someone who is technical in this way, but, like, good design is really important. Like bad design. I can't tell you how many times I've been on, like, a restaurant website page where I'm like, this is so infuriating. The font is terrible and this user experience is terrible. I don't even want to go to this restaurant anymore. Like. Like, good design can really open some doors and bad design can really close them. I'll just put it that way.

[Samantha]

Right?

[Bridget Todd]

It's what matters.

[Commercial Narrator]

Absolutely.

[Samantha]

You are completely correct. But no, I did like that. I just was like, oh, look, she did this and this and then that blanket. I was like, oh, I love this blanket. It just has all those essentially emojis that's all over her blankets that she designed. I was like, that is so cool. And then I thought about the fact that Annie loves talking about how she has the superpower. So you're welcome for telling everyone your superpower.

[Bridget Todd]

It's a good power, right?

[Annie]

It's probably my most useless one, but also the safest one. I'm glad you went in that direction.

[Samantha]

Wait, what?

[Bridget Todd]

Okay, silence.

[Samantha]

I killed this. I killed that conversation real good, y'.

[Annie]

All.

[Samantha]

You're welcome.

[Annie]

Well, when it comes to care and these icons, she's going to have, like, her legacy is a lasting legacy.

[Bridget Todd]

It is a lasting legacy. And I guess, yeah, as I said, I think it's important to highlight what she did was important. I couldn't tell you whether or not personal computing would be the same if not for care, But I know that she had an impact and I Think it's important to recognize and I also just think it's important to again underscore that she did all of this as a non technical person. She told the Smithsonian about her time at Apple. I loved working on that project. I always felt so lucky for the opportunity to be a non technical person in a software group. I was awed by being able to collaborate with such creative, capable and dedicated engineers. And I think it's really awesome that she was holding it down on this group of engineers as a non technical woman doing her thing and, and really building out a lasting, enduring legacy in a field where things don't often last and don't often endure in this way. So I think it's really important to recognize her work.

[Annie]

I do too. And I think, you know, even looking back at the time when she was doing this and yeah, being a woman in this non technical space and I don't know, creating these things that have lasted, it's just very, very inspiring and I'm glad that you brought this story to our attention.

[Bridget Todd]

Bridget, thank you for giving me the space to nerd out on this. Honestly, it truly is because I saw that badass picture of her on Old School Cool on Reddit. So whoever put that on Reddit, thank you. Yes, listeners, please, if you have not seen that picture, look it up. She is amazing.

[Annie]

Yes, yes. It's so cool. Just so cool.

[Samantha]

Just goals. If I had goals, that would be one of them.

[Annie]

Yeah, her picture. You can achieve this, Samantha.

[Samantha]

Now, since I don't think so, I would fall out. Like there's so many levels of cool that I couldn't hit and one of them would be actually sitting like that.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, I'm worried for her back health. She's like really leaned back.

[Annie]

Well, thanks as always for being here, Bridget. Where can the listeners find you?

[Bridget Todd]

Well, if you want more nerding out on all things tech and the Internet and things of that nature, you can definitely check out my podcast on iHeartrad radio called There Are no Girls on the Internet. We would love to have you there. And you can follow me on social media. I'm Bridget Marie on Twitter and BridgetMarie in DC on Instagram. Yes.

[Annie]

So go check out that podcast follow Bridget, if you don't already listeners. And we can't wait to have you again, Bridget.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, I can't wait. I cannot wait. We'll talk sex in the city, I bet. Oh, and just like that.

[Samantha]

And just like that.

[Bridget Todd]

Annie, you don't get that joke because

[Samantha]

you don't want to.

[Annie]

I don't want to be left out

[Bridget Todd]

of the conversation and I couldn't help but wonder.

[Samantha]

I couldn't help but wonder.

[Bridget Todd]

All right, all right.

[Annie]

I'm down to watch it. I'm just a little nervous, but I'm down to watch it.

[Bridget Todd]

It'll be so good.

[Annie]

Yes. Yes, it will be. It will be. And if you'd like to contact us listeners, you can. Our email is stuff media momstuffheartmedia.com youm can find us on Instagram at Stuff mom never told you'd or on Twitter @MomStuff Podcast thanks as always to our super producer Christina.

[Samantha]

Thank you Christina Christina and thanks to

[Annie]

you for listening Stuff I never told you'd's production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.

[Bridget Todd]

It.

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[Bridget Todd]

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[Samantha]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and

[Annie]

there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance

[Samantha]

Against Hate, and it wasn't loud or flashy.

[Annie]

It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly

[Samantha]

it showed that hate doesn't always announce

[Annie]

itself, but the impact is still huge.

[Samantha]

If you saw the Blue Square spot

[Annie]

during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about.

[Samantha]

And if you want to show support,

[Annie]

sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

[Commercial Narrator]

I'm U.S. transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. We all get distracted when we drive, whether it's from our phones or kids in the backseat bickering. But how we handle these distractions can be a matter of life or death.

[Bridget Todd]

Before you get on the road for

[Commercial Narrator]

your next road trip, please put your

[Bridget Todd]

phones on silent and take a mental

[Commercial Narrator]

note to focus on driving.

[Annie]

Paid for by NHTSA this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.