TikTok’s New Trump-Backed American Ownership Has People Fleeing

Summary

Podcast Summary

There Are No Girls on the Internet
Episode: TikTok’s New Trump-Backed American Ownership Has People Fleeing
Host: Bridget Todd (iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Dr. Jessica Maddox, Associate Professor of Media Studies, University of Georgia
Date: January 28, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the fallout from TikTok's forced transition to American ownership—a joint venture orchestrated with the involvement of the Trump administration. Host Bridget Todd and guest Dr. Jessica Maddox dive into the facts (and myths) about changes to TikTok’s policies, the dangers facing marginalized communities, and the broader implications for privacy, digital organizing, and the future of social media in the United States.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why the Change in TikTok Ownership Matters

• Backdrop: The transition occurs amid user fear and distrust, especially among those who use TikTok for activism or documenting abuse (03:05–03:55).
• Users, especially from marginalized and vulnerable communities, are worried about data access under new ownership that's closely tied to the Trump administration.
• Statistic: Daily deletions of TikTok in the US rose nearly 150% in the five days after the announcement (03:18).

2. Separating Fact from Misinformation

• Rampant Rumors: Host Bridget Todd describes pausing TikTok coverage due to swirling rumors and misreporting—even from reputable outlets—about impending bans or app migrations that didn't materialize (07:03–08:00).
• Jessica Maddox: Explains the origins—lack of user education on social media mechanics, legalese-filled terms of service, and reward systems that favor speed and sensation over accuracy (10:33–12:10).
  • “Nobody reads the terms of services or community guidelines or privacy policies. And that is because that's by design.”
    — Jessica Maddox (10:33)
• Both panelists agree that misinformation is often driven by user confusion, platforms’ own incentives, and sensationalist reporting.

3. Data Collection: What’s Actually New vs. “Normal”

• Normal vs. Abnormal: Most “shock” over new data tracking (like geolocation and demographics) is misplaced—these practices have been typical across platforms for years (24:52–27:20).
• What’s new/abnormal?
  • The proximity of government to TikTok's data due to this ownership arrangement (26:51).
  • “The big abnormal part is how the close relationship...the close relationship to the White House and the fact specifically that this information is being put in the hands of a government that seeks to actively harm those people.” — Jessica Maddox (27:50)
• TikTok now explicitly collects and categorizes users by sensitive demographics—gender status (trans/nonbinary) and immigration status. While this isn’t new, the government’s involvement is unprecedented and alarming (27:32–28:47).

4. Advice for Marginalized Communities

• Bridget asks: Should those at highest risk (trans, nonbinary, undocumented users) leave the platform?
• Maddox’s nuanced answer:
  • “It's a matter of personal comfort level...If we all do run away, the bullies win...”
    — Jessica Maddox (29:44–30:49)
  • Encourages people to assess their personal risk and make choices accordingly but warns against wholesale silencing and self-erasure.
  • Taking breaks and practicing caution is appropriate; balancing activism and safety is key.

5. The Broader Context: Social Media, Organizing, & the Power Grab

• Bridget recalls earlier eras when social media fostered real activism (MeToo, Black Lives Matter) and questions if increased billionaire ownership and platform policy changes are a deliberate clampdown (36:36–39:27).
• Maddox agrees and warns about nostalgia—social media has always had flaws and dangers—but now we’re in a “backlash moment” against the gains achieved by marginalized communities in the last decade (39:27–41:36).
  • “The pendulum always swings back...It just may take some time.”
    — Jessica Maddox (41:12)
• Both express exhaustion at losing spaces they helped build and the need to keep fighting for digital representation.

6. Coping as a Creator & Academic in the New Landscape

• Maddox shares strategies for mental health: boundaries, curation of algorithm, bookmarking for work-life balance, and bracing for online harassment (42:29–44:10).
• She describes why it’s vital for real experts to participate publicly and make knowledge accessible, even in hostile or “shadow-banning” environments (44:29–46:08).

7. The Future of TikTok and Platform Strategy

• Despite public outcry and mass deletions, Maddox sees TikTok doubling down on original content, e-commerce, and transformation into a more Amazon- or Douyin-like platform (47:09–48:49).
  • “I don't think TikTok's worried at all. Unfortunately, I do think that...I see TikTok moving in the way of an Amazon, especially with...e-commerce first.” — Jessica Maddox (47:09)
• She predicts users will return after initial outrage and TikTok’s influence will continue to expand.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Policy Confusion:
  “I made the joke on my...video...it's like when you're at a bachelorette party and everybody's drunk and you're moving from bar to bar and you're the sober friend that has to make sure all the girls get to the next bar. But you lose somebody. That is what it's like trying to move to a new app.”
  — Jessica Maddox (09:01)

• On Government Data Access:
  “Information is being put in the hands of a government that seeks to actively harm those people.”
  — Jessica Maddox (02:45 & 27:50)

• On Social Media & Activism:
  “If we all do run away, the bullies win, and it becomes an even bigger cesspool. But we also have to be smart and safe in these very, very, very awful times.”
  — Jessica Maddox (31:12)

• On Fatigue and Platform Loss:
  “I'm just so sick of getting pushed out of these corners of the Internet that we...carved out for ourselves...I'm so sick of this handful of billionaires...taking over more and more and more of our Internet landscape.”
  — Bridget Todd (31:49)

• On Whether She Will Leave TikTok:
  “I'll be there for a while. I think there, you know, I'll, I'll keep talking and trying to explain things until I'm so shadow banned or actually banned that I can't do it anymore...”
  — Jessica Maddox (51:04)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Context – 02:45–03:55
• Misinformation & Reporting Errors – 07:03–09:45
• Why Misinformation Spreads – 10:33–12:10
• What’s Normal/Abnormal About TikTok’s Practices – 24:52–28:47
• Advice for At-Risk Users – 29:38–31:33
• Losing Social Spaces & Platform Fatigue – 31:49–33:41
• Organizing, Social Media Power, and The Backlash Moment – 36:36–41:36
• Staying Resilient As a User or Academic – 42:29–46:08
• TikTok’s Strategic Direction & Future – 47:09–48:49

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Tone and Language

• The conversation is frank, informed, and sometimes exasperated but threaded with dry humor and cautious optimism.
• Both Todd and Maddox employ accessible language, pop culture analogies, and empathetic acknowledgment of their listeners’ concerns.

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Concluding Thoughts

This episode cuts through the panic, misinformation, and legalese surrounding TikTok's new American ownership to clarify what’s really changing—and what isn’t. It centers the experience of marginalized communities, explores risks under increased government proximity, and advocates both caution and resilience: not abandoning digital spaces, but proceeding with eyes open.

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Stay Connected:

• Find Dr. Jessica Maddox on Threads and Instagram: @JessMaddox21
• On Substack: “by the way: btw Social”
• On Bluesky: jessmatics.psky.social

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Transcript

[Jessica Maddox]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Jessica Maddox]

Information is being put in the hands of a government that seeks to actively harm those people.

[Bridget Todd]

There Are no Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are no Girls on the Internet. TikTok is now officially operating under American ownership for users in the United States. And that shift is happening at a moment when a lot of people are already feeling angry, scared and on edge, including in the wake of yet another killing at the hands of ICE in Minnesota. So for people who use TikTok to document abuse, organize or speak out about what's happening in their communities, this timing matters. And a lot of us aren't really trusting that a TikTok operating under this new American ownership and working hand in glove with the Trump administration is going to protect our ability to speak freely about real issues, especially when those issues involve state violence or dissent. According to CNBC, TikTok users have been deleting the app at a higher rate since the company announced its US operations. The daily average of users deleting TikTok in the US has increased nearly 150% over the past five days compared with the previous three months. Now, there's been no shortage of warnings, rumors and worst case scenarios about what this new era of TikTok might actually mean. So rather than speculate, I wanted to get clear on what's actually happening and what isn't. To help separate fact from fear, I turned to an expert.

[Jessica Maddox]

My name is Jessica Maddox and I am an associate professor of Media studies at the University of Georgia.

[Bridget Todd]

Jess has been using her own social media platforms to try and educate people about what this new leadership at TikTok actually means. So, Jess, you're a social media expert? Not in the way that I sometimes say I am. Like you literally have a PhD in this. Tell us about your background and just how you became somebody who is interested in studying social media and how it works.

[Jessica Maddox]

Yeah, I always joke. I grew up with the Internet, I mean going really far back. I got a computer and the Internet in my house back in like 1996 because my dad was a software engineer. So we were always on like the cutting edge of technology, I guess. But I don't know, I always have just really loved the Internet from like, even when I was a kid playing like neopets.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh my God, Neopets.

[Jessica Maddox]

Right, right. I think it was like the pro. That was like the precursor to Animal Crossing, I think, in like, a lot of ways. But, yeah, I have always loved it. I was on livejournal and Zanga back in the early days. I actually went to Cuscool. Nothing to do, nothing related to this. I was an English major. And then when I graduated in the last financial crash, there were no jobs, so I was working part time at a magazine and they were like, oh, well, you're the youngest person in the office. Figure out this thing called social media for us. And I was like, I get to do this for a living. Like, this could be a job. And so I went back to school to get a master's in public relations to do social media strategy. Got introduced to the academic stuff and realized those were actually my burning questions about the world. Got a PhD. I've been a professor for nine. No, no, eight years. That nine sounds scary. Eight years. Now I have tenure, which is a privilege I don't take lightly. Uh, and yeah, here I am. I. I basically, it's an occupational hazard that I talk shit on the Internet. Am I allowed to cuss?

[Bridget Todd]

You're absolutely allowed to curse.

[Jessica Maddox]

Yeah. Okay, Okay.

[Bridget Todd]

I have to tell you, this is like, I'll be talking about this all day, so I promise I'll bring it in. I'm so glad that you brought up things like Zanga, MySpace, Neopets. I can't tell you how many people I've interviewed on the show where that was their entry point into tech. I've talked. I've talked to people who, like, are high up in tech companies and they're like, oh, it all started with Neopets.

[Jessica Maddox]

Honestly. Yeah, if I had to say, it all started for new with Neopets. For me too. I have a PhD now.

[Bridget Todd]

Reporting on TikTok has not always been easy. At one point, we actually put an internal moratorium on discussing any TikTok ownership news on the podcast, unless it was fully confirmed by the company itself. And that's because there's been so much speculative or incorrect information circulating about TikTok, often repeated by people who really should know better. For example, you might remember that in the summer of 2025, reputable news outlets like Reuters reported that TikTok was going to be replaced in the US by a brand new standalone app, sometimes referred to as M2. Now, according to those reports, the new app was going to be launching on September 5, 2025, and Americans would have until March of this year to migrate or lose access entirely. This story went everywhere I saw it repeated across the Internet over and over again. I even almost included it in one of our news roundups. But the sourcing just felt a little bit sketchy to me, so I held back. And I am so glad that I did, because it was totally not true. And that episode is a pretty perfect example of just how far bad information about TikTok can travel, even when it starts with sources that are generally pretty trustworthy. I wanted to talk to you about the changes that have been made on TikTok recently, in part because it's one of those things where there's just so much misreporting and misinformation about what's happening with TikTok. I remember. And it might have been last year when there was a wave of reporting that was like, oh, they've already revealed what they're going to do with TikTok to keep it in the U.S. they've got this new app and that ended up being not correct. And I. I almost put out an episode on it until reading some of the reporting, and I was like, oh, this is a lot of sources say, I don't know. Do you remember that?

[Jessica Maddox]

I absolutely remember that. And I actually, I had a private A video on my own TikTok page because so many people were asking me about, like, are we gonna have to download a new app? And I was like, no. And they were like, well, they said we were going to last year. And I was like, but we don't have to now. And they're like, how do you know? And I was like, because it just vanished into the ether. Nobody's talking about it anymore. Like, trust me, if we had to Tick Tock would have been pushing that so hard because I made the joke on my. On that video. I was like, it's like when you're at a bachelorette party and everybody's drunk and you're moving from bar to bar and you're the sober friend that has to make sure all the girls get to the next bar. But you lose somebody. That is what it's like trying to move to a new app is. You're going to lose a bunch of people along the way. So Tik Tok was going to make sure nobody did that.

[Bridget Todd]

That is such a great analogy. I have been on both ends of that. So that's. That. That's an analogy that works for me.

[Jessica Maddox]

I have been the drunk friend and I have been the one wrangling everybody.

[Bridget Todd]

Yes.

[Jessica Maddox]

Why?

[Bridget Todd]

I'm curious. Why do you think, especially with this TikTok joint US venture thing that we know actually happened this week. Why do you think there has been so much misinformation floating around? I've seen screenshots floating around. I've seen people. A lot of it is like. I don't want to say like, it, it's almost inflammatory. Some of it. Some of it is. And there are. There are reasons to be concerned, which we'll get into. But some of it is almost sort of like. It seems like it is designed to get a panicked response out of people. What do you. Where do you think this comes from?

[Jessica Maddox]

Yeah, I think it comes from a lot of different places. And, and what I'm about to say, I want to make it clear that I actually, I don't blame people for maybe sharing wrong information or inflammatory information. Not totally. Because I think it has been very lucrative for social media companies in the United States to not educate people about how social media actually works. Nobody reads the terms of services or community guidelines or privacy policies. And that is because that's by design. Right. Most of these things are written in very intense legalese also. So. And. And why would you. Most of us are just. And even me, to some extent. And I know better. I'm like checking, yes, accept cookies. Yes, like, let's go. Because that's just how our modern social media ecosystem has been built and that we're just like whatever we opt in. So that I think is part of the problem is that until people know to look at these documents like terms of service and privacy policies, they don't know what we're looking at. And again, I don't blame individuals for that because the landscape has been designed that we don't look at them. So when we do finally start looking at them, I think people see things that should actually, yes, rightfully shock them because there is some pretty damning stuff in there. I also do think it is social media and everybody wants to be first. Everybody wants to be sensationalist, everybody wants the engagement, everybody wants the clicks. So people are going to rush to say things and share things and reshare things. Like even this morning when I was reading the terms of service and privacy policies myself, I was getting some text messages and I was like, this could be true. I'm not taking it as fact until I read these documents myself and see it for myself.

[Bridget Todd]

These companies have built this climate where nobody, as you said, is reading the full terms of service, and they have built a climate where people are rewarded for being first and being inflammatory, which also benefits them. So it's just Like a doubly benefiting thing where nobody is reading and educating themselves. People are rewarded for like saying things that maybe aren't even true. And the cycle just goes around and around.

[Jessica Maddox]

Absolutely. When I teach my social media and society class, which is kind of just like a undergraduate survey of things about social media, I use my own Amazon Alexa data as a teaching point to my students. And again, I know better and I still have an Amazon Alexa, so take that with what you will. But I, but also this becomes actually a really good teaching tool because I have no qualms showing my data. And so I download all of my Amazon Alexa data, put it up on the screen in class. I said, this is everything Amazon is collecting about me. And the thing that gets them the most is when Amazon has coded how I speak to my Alexa in a positive, negative or neutral tone and their faces is just like horror. And I said, okay, so why would they do this? And my students are, I teach brilliant young, young kids and I love them. They are always able to point out and get to the point where, oh, because if you're buying something through your Amazon Alexa, if you speak about it positively, it is going to push those advertisements to you. Right? So the tone is connected to purchase intention. So, so yeah, I think people are shocked at actually how, because we, because we don't read the terms of service, right? We don't read the terms of service, we don't read the privacy policies. And so these are all the things that actually are being collected about us every time we interact with technology. You know, I always remember I had a high school economics professor who said the thing all economics professors say which is like, there's no such thing as a free lunch. And that's the same thing. There's no such thing as a free service because if, if you're not paying your, the product your yourself is the payment to use the service. And I don't think people realize that about social media is that yes, it's free, but what you are paying is your, is the cost of your information.

[Bridget Todd]

And I, I do think it's easy to forget the, the nitty gritty granular level of that information. Your Alexa is, is such a good teaching tool because I talk about this stuff all day long and I'm like, oh yeah, it would be weird if my, if Amazon knew. Like, oh look, sounds like another bad morning for Bridget when she's talking to. Right?

[Jessica Maddox]

Oh, she doesn't like that. Maybe we shouldn't recommend those things to her.

[Bridget Todd]

Okay, so the big announcement is that TikTok is now going to be operated via the TikTok USDS joint venture. Fucking mouthful.

[Jessica Maddox]

What a mouthful.

[Bridget Todd]

So what exactly is that entity?

[Jessica Maddox]

Yes, so this is an entity that is made up and forgive me, I may not have the exact statistics right, but roughly 45%, it comes from three companies. Oracle, Silver Lake and Abu Dhabi based MGX. I believe 30.1% was original. ByteDance. No, no, it was ByteDance. And then 19.9% was original by dance investors. And then there was a. Up until yesterday there was like an unnamed 5% and I believe that a name 5%, I believe is the board with like shout you the current TikTok CEO and some other handpicked individuals.

[Bridget Todd]

So this might be a stupid question. Did the government like the, like the White House did, or were they the ones who amassed this group of people?

[Jessica Maddox]

Yes, and I, I say that hesitantly because, yes, the US when we look back at what happened and what led us here, right. Tick Tock was banned as part of the big bill that came through back in 2024. And the tick. And I should note that the provision to ban Tik Tok was folded into a much larger international aid and military package. So I understand. Ish. Not really, but sure why politicians didn't vote against it because reasons. But that's a whole other podcast episode. You know about that. But so, and then it went through the courts. Supreme cup court upholds it. Biden is leaving office and says and literally kicks the can to Donald Trump and says, this is yours now, which I don't love. And so then Trump says, we're gonna make a deal. And so yes, I believe he had J.D. vance, who was like the, the Tick Tock Czar to like come up with the, this deal. And so the, the U.S. government did essentially help bring the players together. So they may not have had an explicit hand, but they allowed these individuals to come together. And the deal had to be approved by the government to meet the terms and conditions set out in that military aid international aid Bill that said TikTok could not operate in the United States.

[Bridget Todd]

There was a time where Trump was talking about this and some elected officials were talking about this like it was the Tick Tock was the biggest threat to national security that we had. Then for a while it was like, oh, we can just push it. We can change the deadline. And I was like, what happened? I thought this was like the biggest threat to our national security.

[Jessica Maddox]

I feel like we have been talking about this, I mean, I think since 2019. Really, I think it really kicked in 2020, but I feel like I'm so over it. I'm honestly so over it that we're still talking about it after all this time. But what I do think. Yeah, is there has been some hypocrisy from both the Biden and the Trump administrations, because I remember when the Biden administration passed that law or, you know, approved and signed the bill that this provision was in, they then went and had, like, the Biden campaign, when it was still Biden running or whatever. Join TikTok. I was like, if this is such a threat, why are you having the President of the United States reelection campaign on TikTok? I don't get it. Make it make sense. And then I believe Alexandra Ocasio Cortez has even come out and said, like, we've received no briefing that says this.

[Bridget Todd]

Is actually a threat. Yes, I remember that so clearly. And that's kind of. I mean, I obviously care about national security risks and all of that. Of course, it really showed to me, okay, this is about. You know, I think there was somebody who made a joke of like, china wants to have my data. Don't they know that's reserved for Mark Zuckerberg and other American tech company owners?

[Jessica Maddox]

That's the thing. I stopped taking any of these conversations about data privacy seriously after Cambridge. The Cambridge Analytica data scandal happened in 2016, when a rogue Facebook app that, like, told you your IQ or something used a back door to get into people's profiles and access their friends profiles. That it was something I believe, like almost 200 million, maybe 180 million people's data was compromised. That was then sold to political advertising firms in the United States. And I realized then was like, that no one cares. It's a matter of who has your data. That's really what people care about, is which political groups have your data, not actually that another country has your data.

[Bridget Todd]

I just feel like if we really gave a shit about data and security and all of that, we would have some sort of meaningful, comprehensive data privacy legislation in this country. And we don't. And so until that's the case, it is just very difficult for me to take any of these conversations seriously.

[Jessica Maddox]

I completely agree. And to any of your listeners in California, congratulations. They have more data privacy than the rest of us because that state actually did pass some laws. So, you know, if you're ever on a site, shopping or whatever, or even in terms of service on social media, it says, like, if you live in California, click here. That's what that is. If you've ever wondered.

[Bridget Todd]

Thank you for that. Yeah, I I've heard people say like oh I'm gonna like get a VPN and just try to tell it. I'm in California so I can enjoy a little bit of data privacy legislation.

[Jessica Maddox]

God, I wish right?

[Bridget Todd]

So what exactly is in those new TikTok policies? Jess breaks it down after this quick break.

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[Bridget Todd]

And we're back in the U.S. tikTok officially moved to American ownership on January 22, 2026, and since then you might have seen a lot of pretty sensational posts about what exactly this means, but Jess says it's really important to slow down and look at what's actually true, because a lot of the things that folks are reacting to now aren't really new. Many of these practices have already been happening both on TikTok and other social media platforms for quite some time. In other words, they're more or less normal platform policies, with some big exceptions that we will get into. Even if, when you really think about it, the amount of data we give to social media companies has never really been all that normal in the first place. Okay, so one of the things I like about how you've been breaking down these changes on TikTok is that you sort of helpfully framed it as abnormal versus normal, with the big caveat that stepping back in a kind of way, none of this is really normal. I really like that. How did you land on that framework?

[Jessica Maddox]

God, that's a great question. So I mean I, I think that's it gets back to what you were saying to you about like all the, the misinformation and sensationalism is that whenever there has been a change on TikTok, like I remember, like I see people being like, oh, if you block a certain company, your algorithm returns to normal. And I'm like, that's not how algorithms work. But again, the lack of education has gotten us to that point. So I don't fault people for that. So whenever I try to make a video about this stuff, I try to debunk some stuff that seems to be kind of running uncontrolled. And so one of the things I first saw was people were like, oh my God, they're geo locating and like tracking us now. And I was like, I hate to break it to you babes, that has been happening for a long time from every social media platform ever. And this is, you should see the comments on my TikTok video. It is a. Currently a. People are fighting with each other immensely about how they think this stuff works. And I wish they wouldn't. I wish people would realize we all can learn a lot about how this stuff works. So that's my first step is like, okay, look, so there was some stuff updated about location tracking, but that's not new. And every social media platform does that. What is new again is, and I mentioned this in my, my social media post about this is the government's closeness to this all. And that is what also concerns me about tracking for demographic characteristics. Again, every social media platform tracks demographics. They track age, race, country of origin, ethnicity, sexuality, gender. They do make profiles about you based on what you do and what you post. This has been another question. I've gotten a lot of my comments like how would they know that? Well, if you say that about yourself in a post or in a video that gets recorded about you into your, your secret profile over here that gets sold to advertisers. So again, that's nothing new. But what does concern me again is the closeness of the government, that this was a deal that was again brought together by the Trump administration, by this White House and we don't know again the level of closeness or how close that goes moving forward.

[Bridget Todd]

So that really sounds like the kind of abnormal piece of this that you know, collecting information about you. I'm so sorry to be the person to tell you, but it's been happening for a long time on every social media platform that is, yes, quote, normal. Again, none of this like normal for social media platforms at this point.

[Jessica Maddox]

Great, great caveat that yes, this is not normal and should not be normal how much data they collect about you. But given that that has become our de facto normal.

[Bridget Todd]

It is unfortunately normal and two pieces of demographic information that I know TikTok has updated their policy to say that they collect are someone's gender status, like if they're trans or non binary and their immigration status. Is collecting that bit of information about people normal?

[Jessica Maddox]

Well, unfortunately, yes, actually doing some research in the Wayback Machine. TikTok has actually collected this data about people for years. Unbeknownst to us, however, is that the big abnormal part is how the close relationship, how this deal came to be, the close relationship to the White House and the fact specifically that this information is being in the, is being put in the hands of a government that seeks to actively harm those people. I mean we are seeing that across the country with anti trans legislation, the absolutely horrific and despicable actions of ice and that deeply concerns me and I feel that is deeply abnormal for TikTok to have this information listed that says, hey, we track this about you and, and this now being controlled, you know, 15% by the company of Oracle and the Ellisons, who are very close and well documented Trump supporters.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, I don't know how to ask this or if it's even a question that you would, would be comfortable even like speaking to at all. But like, you know, the point of this show is to make tech accessible, but particularly amplify the voices and represent folks who are not often included in the conversation. Right. So women, queer folks, trans folks, immigrants, all of that. And so if you had a loved one or were in close community with someone who you know was non binary or trans or undocumented, what would you, would you tell? Like, I don't, I don't. I want to be careful that people are wondering like why I'm asking it this way is that I want to be so careful to not be like, if you represent one of these groups, you no longer have a voice on this platform. You don't, you shouldn't. I'm not saying for you to show up on this platform because that's so how our voices are erased and minimized in these spaces already.

[Jessica Maddox]

Thousand percent.

[Bridget Todd]

So like what do we do with that? Like, like how do we turn that into practical advice?

[Jessica Maddox]

Absolutely. So I'm really glad you asked that question and I think you framed it beautifully and that what I always tell my students too is it is a matter of personal comfort level. Right. I don't know someone's personal comfort level to handle these issues. Does this give me pause? Yes. Does it? You know, absolutely. It absolutely gives me pause and I would. And again, I don't want to ever tell anybody to get off social media because I do think people deserve to see themselves and their stories represented online. And again, and if everybody runs off the platform, then again the bullies win and that's how tech stays white, cisgender, male. And that's not good. That's not good. For anybody. So I would encourage people assess your own comfort level. That is something you know more intimately than I do. Be careful, right? Like, always be smart. Always be careful. And I do think that, you know, you can also take a step back without leaving forever. I. I do that in my own line of work as well. Sometimes it just gets really overwhelming to be online for whatever reason, and I think being able to take a step back and say, hey, this is not for me right now, and I'm going to wait till I know more to see how things play out, I think that is smart, right? I think a healthy dose of caution is really good moving forward. But of course, I'm aware I am also saying this as a white woman who has immense privilege. I also have the privilege of academic freedom, even though with all the attacks in the United States, to kind of hide behind that shield to, to make these critiques. So just, I hope everyone keeps that in mind and as they listen to this, that you know your own comfort level better than I do. If we all do run away, the bullies win, and it becomes an even bigger cesspool. But we also have to be smart and safe in these very, very, very awful times. Yeah.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, God. You said it. Like, I. There was a time where Twitter was my most used social media platform. Now, I mean, I still have an account, but my, My pin tweet, I have. My bio says, please see pin tweet. And my pin tweet is like, I'm not really here anymore. And.

[Jessica Maddox]

Same here.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah. And it's just, I, I. In the scheme of things, big deal. But it is sort of like, Like, I'm just so sick of getting pushed out of these corners of the Internet that we, that we, you know, carved out for ourselves. And not to say that old Twitter was perfect, because I, I had a lot of complaints about it, too, but I just, I'm so sick of sort of this handful of billionaires with the. Some of the most odious people taking over more and more and more of our Internet landscape. And it just. I don't even have a question. It's just, it's. I'm. I'm really sick of it.

[Jessica Maddox]

I am the same way. I also, I mean, on Twitter, I was also extremely active on Twitter, and I stayed for a long time, even after Elon Musk ran it into the ground and made it more of a cesspool. And it was the Charlie Kirk shooting that made me. I was like, I'm done. I'm done with this site. But I do. Yeah, I hate that too. I'm like fuck you. Stop ruining my platforms. Basically I because I think, I don't know, I don't, you know, I don't know what I think there. I think that these are spaces where we all build such good communities and we build such wonderful things and it shows us just how precarious that is and how it is built on, on, on sand. And that poor business decisions, or rather maybe not even poor business decisions, but very deliberate business decisions that are at odds with how people actually use social media can ruin them. And I hate it. I hate keep having to rebuild platforms in new places. I, I hate keep telling people find me here, find me here. Because it feels like we're all just chasing each other around a schoolyard now with no kind of rhyme or reason, trying to find each other, trying to play tag to some extent. And it's just, it's incredibly frustrating.

[Bridget Todd]

More after a quick break.

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[Jessica Maddox]

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[Bridget Todd]

Let's get right back into it so you might have seen that people are doing this 2016 throwback trend on social media right now. And when I think back to 2016, what I remember most is how angry I felt. I was angry watching folks get killed in the street, angry watching abusers and not just get away with it, but amass power. But it wasn't just me. That anger was everywhere, and it's part of what helped spark movements like Black Lives Matter and MeToo. Those movements gave people a way to take that anger and turn it into something meaningful. Social media made it possible for people to find each other, to realize that you didn't have to be alone in that anger. You could channel it into something that felt like real change. There was this feeling that other people felt the way that you did, and together, using the Internet, you could actually build something. But now, 10 years later, when I scroll social media, I don't know that I really feel that anymore. Instead, I feel overwhelmed and also weirdly disengaged at the same time. Like I'm just screaming about my rage and also dwelling in it. And I don't think that's an accident, because billionaires like Elon Musk And Larry Ellison, TikTok's new owner, didn't just buy up pieces of our digital media landscape at random. They understood how powerful these platforms were, how good they were at building real power, and just how important it would be to control them. I think, especially right now, against the backdrop of the very stuff that you were describing earlier, of communities that are really under attack right now. Immigrants, trans folks, queer Folks, I, I think back to a time where these platforms were places that you could build a voice and build a, build real political and social power. Like, I don't have access to publishing an op ed in the New York Times. However, I might be able to get enough Twitter followers. And I think, I think about like all the different movements that were started on social media. MeToo, Black Lives Matter. I wonder if part of the reason why everything feels especially awful right now was because those platforms have been so overtaken by these people and they've been tweaked in ways that make finding that voice easy and we're just sort of scrambling. Not. I mean, I'm speaking for myself. I'm sure there are people out there that are still using those tools to build power and shout out to them. And speaking very much about how I feel, I feel like I have so much less of an understanding of like, what are we all doing? How do we organize online? Like, we're like, where are we going? Who's starting the hashtag, whatever. I should say, I'm pretty tapped in in my own neighborhood and community with offline actions, irl. So I know that online actions are not like the end all, be all. But I guess what I'm saying is the climate online just feels so different than it did 10 years ago, and it just feels terrible.

[Jessica Maddox]

It does. And I do think that this is partially by design, right? That there was a lot of grassroots power that came from social media in the 2010s. I mean, I'm thinking back to even like the Arab Spring back in like 2010, when I, you bunch of Middle Eastern countries were able to kind of like push back on their political regimes through social media and were able to kind of circumvent government, the government through social media. And I do think, you know, there again, there was a lot of good grassroots stuff like you said. Me too. Just building collectives, finding like minded people, refusing to shut up. Right. And we had that power. And I think that scares a lot of people that, that grassroots power. Yet at the same time, I do want to, I always caution against Internet nostalgia because, like, the Internet was never good, right? You know, I mean, I was like really harassed on Twitter for the first time. I Remember in like 2015, like where like people were like tweeting about my account and being like, go bother her. She's like a stupid feminist PhD student. How dare you say feminist stuff on the Internet, right? So it's never been good. But I will say my optimistic take, I actually do have an optimistic take in all of this is that we are currently in a moment that is the backlash to that utopian grassroots power of social media of the 2010s, where a bunch of people are, you know, not happy with how marginalized individuals were able to get voice and power. I see that. You know, we're very much in a backlash to. Me too. We're very much in a backlash to body positivity, right? With, like, skinny talk and, I hate to say, GLP1s and all these things. Like, so we are currently in a pushback moment, but the pendulum always swings back. And so I do believe. I don't know when. I can't tell you when it's gonna happen. And that is, of course, a rather optimistic take because I know some people don't make it to where the pendulum swings back, but the pendulum does swing back. And that is the one thing I do think about when I'm able to see how it has swung and swung back before, that I know will be there again. It just may take some time.

[Bridget Todd]

So you're optimistic about this?

[Jessica Maddox]

I kind of have to be, because through all the horror and all how awful things are and doing what I do for a living, I would go crazy if I didn't have a sliver of optimism, because, I mean, I. I average, like, 15 hours of screen time a day because I do this for a living. Right. My. My research is on social media. I'm connecting with people, I'm watching trends, I'm watching posts. So, yeah, it's absurd how much screen time I have a day. So I actually, I. But I have to actively choose to be optimistic because, man, it is really hard to sometimes. So can I try?

[Bridget Todd]

How do you balance, you know, this is your work, your. Your body of academic studies. How do you balance the need to be online, which, like, don't. I know it can be a slog with, like, you know, having a healthy outlook on things. How do you balance that?

[Jessica Maddox]

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And it's one I don't think I'm perfect at by any means. But I'm a big believer in, like, folders and bookmarks. So if I'm having, like, my bedrot time at night and I'm like, scrolling threads and I see something, I'm like, oh, that tickles something in my academic brain, it goes into a bookmark and then I look at it in business hours again, so I'm not constantly thinking about. I also do a good. I try to do a good job of curating my algorithms. So right now it's all heated rivalry. Love it. It's just. It's so fun and it just makes me happy. So I try to do. Sometimes I'll like, also like on Tick Tock, I'll be like, oh, God, I'm getting too much, like, work stuff. And then I go and search just like dogs. And I like, let my algorithm know I want to see all the TikTok pets. And then I just get on your TikTok pets and it's. It's great. So it's very deliberate. I joke, you know, like, my screen time and all of this is like my occupational hazard of I just have to be online all the time. I would never advocate for anybody to be online as much as I am online. But yeah, because it's hard. It is. Especially making content myself. That is really where you see some of the worst of people. People really hate my glasses. If you're listening to this, it didn't see any media preview. I have very thick black glasses that I love. I think they're a statement to my face. But people on Tik Tok hate them. I frequently am just, like, told I'm the ugliest person alive. Or that like my. Somebody called my glasses birth control glasses. So and so, like, some girl even went so far one time to like start sending me glasses. I should buy instead. So it's hard. It is very. And honestly, like, becoming a creator myself as opposed to just being an academic. Like, I'm like, oh, this is kind of terrible sometimes.

[Bridget Todd]

What made you want to take that leap to be like, I'm going to be somebody who has an academic perspective and a body of research on social media, but also a public facing creator God.

[Jessica Maddox]

That's a good question. And sometimes I'm like, maybe I should just quit now. I should just quit. I've always been really public about my work. I don't believe knowledge lives in an ivory tower, or at least it shouldn't to me. That's my. My view on it. So even on Twitter, I was always very public. I kind of viral for the first time to talk about Bama Rush talk because before my current job, I was a professor at the University of Alabama for seven years. So I knew that phenomenon very well. So that kind of. I was already doing a lot of media and then that phenomenon, like tweeting about that, like, pushed me into a whole other level. TikTok. I have a distinct memory of downloading TikTok at the start of the pandemic. Like everybody else and telling my husband, I will be making videos by the time this is over. Sure enough I was, but I think probably maybe 20, 22 or 23, I really started making videos in earnest. Just, I was like, you know, I have something to say and I have a perspective that isn't in the conversation. And this is where people are. And if I believe knowledge should be public, I gotta go where the people are.

[Bridget Todd]

And also it's just nice to have somebody who genuinely knows what they're talking about on these platforms, in these spaces, educating people. Because like it's, I think there's something about tech and we were sort of getting at this earlier where it is intentionally legalese, intentionally so long so that people automatically see this and they're like, I'm not reading this. Or worse, they think like, I'm not a tech person. I what, what do I know about all this? I'll just hit accept and I'll never think about it again. And I think the work, that of people like you being on these platforms, having, you know, accessible conversations about this, it is really bringing so many people in who I think they intentionally want locked out.

[Jessica Maddox]

I hope so. I really hope so. You know, somebody even asked me in a comment on my video earlier today. They're like, are you worried you're gonna be like, banned? I'm like, girl, I'm banned all the time. I'm shadow or not? Not officially, but I'm shadow banned all the time whenever I critique. So I was always shadow banned on Twitter for. Even before Elon Musk, before critiquing Twitter, I have been shadow banned on reels. I've been shadow banned on TikTok. So I'm like, this is just another day in my life is being banned.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah.

[Jessica Maddox]

By these platforms terms.

[Bridget Todd]

Let me ask you this, do you see these changes at TikTok? Like I, I often loathe to have these conversations in ways that are framed as like, like what does this mean for the business? Or whatever, whatever. But I have seen so many people vocally talking about how they're gonna, they're not, they're never logging into TikTok again.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Do you?

[Bridget Todd]

What, how do you see this impacting the platform long term?

[Jessica Maddox]

TikTok has made some really interesting moves this week that I, they. And I don't think they're worried at all. So first and foremost, they launched a new micro drama platform.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh God.

[Jessica Maddox]

It's called Pine something. I can't remember what it's called right now, but. So they are now moving into original entertainment content. They have been, they have had a huge showing at Sundance out of Park City, Utah right now, where they are really promoting entertainment first, advertising and marketing on the platform. And they have also really been pushing a lot of E commerce decisions this week. So I don't think TikTok's worried at all. Unfortunately. I do think that, to me, I see TikTok moving in the way of an Amazon, especially with. Because also if we look at what TikTok is outside of the United States, we look at its sister app Duyen, which does operate in China. It is E commerce first. So I really see TikTok leaning into E commerce and entertainment, which to me feels like they are fighting Amazon. They are gunning to be the next Amazon and they have something Amazon doesn't, which is a social media platform of content creators. I'm waiting for Amazon to get their own content creator platform.

[Bridget Todd]

By the way.

[Jessica Maddox]

That is one thing I'm waiting for. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm waiting for it. And so I don't see TikTok that worried. And I think it kind of goes back to again, our complacency again, even my own. I don't read these things, things most of the time myself where a lot of people are going to delete their accounts. Today, I do think there will be a dip. A lot of people will log off, but will come back. And me, I'm everywhere. Until the lights go off for the most part, or until, or until it becomes pretty untenable to be on like it was with Twitter. So unfortunately, I don't see too much changing for TikTok. I actually think I see them getting more power, not less.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, I. How, how do I wish, I wish that you had been like, oh, it's curtains for TikTok. But deep down I knew, I, Deep down I knew you were gonna say that. I haven't, I mean, I, I, There was a time, especially in like the, the height of COVID when TikTok and me, like I, I was a little bit of a late adopter to TikTok and there was a time where it was the platform where I was spending the most time. And the thing that got me off of it, it, and I really, it kind of broke the habit was when TikTok was briefly, I guess, I'll put it in quotes, banned. And then they came back and it was like they had that little thing that was like, thank you to the Trump administration for bringing you. That was too cute by a mile for me. And like literally that for me Personally, that was the day the vibe shifted. I was like, I, I, I. And heretofore I had, I had kind of like, like cautiously respected the CEO of TikTok because I was like always a younger guy. I, I appreciated his comments when he was, was in front of Congress. Like, I, I, I, you, this is like, I'm hearing myself say this and I'm like, this is exactly why you should never start having warm, fuzzy feelings for a, a tech leader. But yeah, that, that really just shifted the vibe and I never got it back after that.

[Jessica Maddox]

I know I, I distinctly remember that as well. And, and that was the dumbest 14 hours in American social media history. I mean, it was so dumb. I was so mad and not even because I thought it was going to go away. I was just like, this is all, to me, it was all performative and unnecessary. And yeah, when I got that message too, that was like, thank you to President Trump. I said, I was like this, there's going to be a deal, they're going to figure it out, but I'm not going to like what happens on the other side of it. And again, so, I mean, the kind of updates that have been implemented, even though, again, they're not necessarily abnormal, they are abnormal because I don't like this presidential administration being this close to a social media company.

[Bridget Todd]

Very, very succinct summary. I guess one of my last questions for you, but you sort of answered it. Will you still use TikTok? Is you're not gonna, you're, you're not being like, I'm deleting it.

[Jessica Maddox]

Yeah, I, I will be there, I'll be there for a while. I mean, over the past couple weeks, I've already tried to like, migrate a little bit more to reels and threads just because I didn't know what was going to happen to TikTok. Moving forward again, I will be there for a little while, especially because it was kind of this way with Twitter too. As an academic, I have colleagues all over the world and so sometimes those are places to connect with them as opposed to other social media platforms. Because we have to remember the rest of the world is having a very different TikTok experience now. It's fine for them. I'm jealous. I hope they adopt me. I'm kidding. I love, I love my, I love where I am. So, yeah, I'll be there for a while. I think there, you know, I'll, I'll keep talking and trying to explain things until I'm so shadow banned or actually banned that I can't do it anymore but I'm so sad. I love my tech talk platform. I like it. It's been so fun and I teach a content creation class too to college undergrads and so I also feel like for teaching wise I need to be there. So we'll see what happens.

[Bridget Todd]

Well for folks who are deleting their app or thinking about deleting their app, where can folks keep up with you just across this disparate Internet landscape that we now have?

[Jessica Maddox]

Absolutely. I am on threads and instagram as Jess Maddox 21. I'm on substack at by the way btw Social and I am on bluesky at jessmatics Psky Social.

[Bridget Todd]

Jess thank you so much for being here. This has been a delight. I really really appreciate it. Thank you for breaking it down.

[Jessica Maddox]

Yeah, thanks for having me and I hope everybody makes smart and good social media decisions for themselves.

[Bridget Todd]

Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach [e-mail] youm can also find transcripts for today's episode and There Are no Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our Executive producer, Tari Harrison is our producer and Sound Engineer Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Stream UFC 324 live on January 24th only on Paramount. Visit paramountplus.com UFC to get started this is Julian Edelman from Dudes on Dudes.

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