TheUPside Podcast: Beyond The Leader – An Interview with Dr. Tony Bridwell

Date: September 16, 2025
Host: Theresa Flood
Guest: Dr. Tony Bridwell

Episode Overview

This episode of TheUPside Podcast, hosted by Theresa Flood, features an in-depth conversation with Dr. Tony Bridwell, an acclaimed organizational intelligence and leadership expert. The discussion centers on the real workings of leadership, the power of followership, building trust, optimizing team culture, and actionable strategies for leaders and parents alike. Bridwell draws on his own ‘squiggly’ career journey, blending personal anecdotes, research insights, and pragmatic tools from his latest book, Beyond the Leader. The episode is rich with practical advice for leaders, aspiring leaders, and anyone interested in understanding how to build strong organizations and healthier relationships.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Bridwell’s “Squiggly Line” Career Journey

• Background: Grew up dyslexic in a small Oklahoma town, struggled in traditional education, steered toward vocational training.
• Early wins: Excelled in architectural drafting, won state competitions, received a scholarship to Oklahoma State.
• Career Pivots: Moved from architecture to theology, then into the business world after economic downturns. Held numerous roles—project management, sales, people leadership.
• Main lesson: Embraces the non-linear career path and values accumulated lessons from each ’squiggle.’

  “Everything I have done along the way has somehow remarkably prepared me for you and me sitting in these chairs together today. Isn’t that crazy?” (10:33)

The Nature of Trust

• Key premise: Trust is complex and often misunderstood; most organizations don't realize it's broken until the symptoms are severe.

• The “Brilliant Jerk”: Toxic high-performers (“brilliant jerk”) are often the first obvious sign trust is broken.

• The Four Seeds of Trust:

  • Character
  • Consistency
  • Competence
  • Compassion (or Care)

    “One of the greatest exercises any team can do is just sit down, have a conversation, get level set on what it actually means to trust.” (16:55)

• Building trust: Knowing which “seed” matters most to each individual is crucial; leaders and teams should discuss and align on “how do I win with you, how do I lose with you?” (17:01)

• Practical takeaways: Use conversations to clarify which aspect of trust is primary for each team member; don’t assume what works for you translates for others.

The Science of Instant Trust

• Warmth & Strength: Within seconds, our brains assess two things—warmth (“Are you for me?”) and strength (“Are you competent, confident?”).

  “The two components that we’re constantly aware of at a subconscious level … your warmth and your strength.” (21:03)

• Sales & Leadership: First impressions are paramount; if you come across as too strong without warmth, you lose trust. Reputation can lend borrowed trust, but you must prove it quickly.
• Practical cues: Smiling, openness, posture, confident not arrogant, inviting demeanor.

Culture: Building, Breaking, and Optimizing

• Every team has culture—by design or by default:

  “Your culture is perfectly aligned to get whatever outcomes you’re getting today.” (36:57)

• Story–Mindset–Behavior–Outcome:
  • Culture starts with the stories people encounter (stories → mindset → behavior → outcome → new stories).
  • Leaders err by targeting only behavior (“behavior modification”), tiredly forcing change instead of addressing root beliefs and stories.
• Culture Hygiene: Proactive, regular checks (just like dental/doctor checkups) on your team’s culture.

Parenting & Influence: Building Relationships with Consistency

• Real-life wisdom: Bridwell cultivates an ongoing Saturday breakfast tradition with his daughter since she was 13, using simple rituals (“high/low” of the week) to build trust and keep communication open.
• Teaching vs. Listening: Don’t always wear the “tool belt”—sometimes the best move is simply to listen and let children work out answers.
• Emotional vocabulary: Encourages children to expand the language of emotions; inability to name feelings often blocks meaningful conversations.

  “As adults, we can only name four words sometimes. And so when we sit down, we get really frustrated. ‘Tell me what you’re feeling?’ ‘I don’t know what I’m feeling…’” (45:22)

Followership: The Forgotten Half of Leadership

• Definition: Followership is both active and passive and exists along a spectrum. It is inseparable from leadership—everyone moves in and out of both modes.

  “You as an individual are either leading or following all the time. Even if you have the highest title, at some point, you have to move into this mode.” (51:54)

• The Follower Effect: Effectiveness as a follower directly correlates to transformational leadership; ineffectiveness breeds toxicity.
• Attributes of Effective Followers:
  • Independent, critical thinkers
  • Mission-focused (not self-centered)
  • Active partners (vs. passive or competitive underminers)
• Passive followers allow toxic leaders to flourish.

The Anatomy of Teams (From Beyond the Leader)

• Engagement + Execution: Effective teams do both, but often organizations overvalue execution (results) and overlook engagement (connection, morale).
• Connection is Key: The discipline of moving in and out of leadership and followership is the “connector” that holds engagement and execution together.
• Seven Disciplines for Extraordinary Teams: The book outlines three engagement, three execution disciplines, linked by connection (leading/following).
• Not all success is healthy: Teams that execute but are disengaged suffer hidden costs (burnout, high turnover).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Career Paths:

  “We put a lot of pressure on our college kids…[to] make a lifelong decision. Declare a major, and you don’t even really know what that looks like in the real world.” – Dr. Bridwell (09:03)

• On Trust & Definitions:

  “If you and I were together…ten people up and say, ‘give me your definition of trust,’ we would get 10, maybe 11 different answers.” – Dr. Bridwell (12:20)

• On Leadership & Followership:

  “It really wasn’t about your leadership; it was all about how well you followed.” – Dr. Bridwell (52:40)

• On Charisma and Leadership:

  “Energy without character is really dangerous.” – Dr. Bridwell (33:47)

• On Culture and Outcomes:

  “Sometimes success can be a really bad teacher.” – Dr. Bridwell (36:47)

• On Raising Kids:

  “I did my dead level best…sometimes the answer is just to sit there and let them work the answer out…” – Dr. Bridwell (44:11)

• On Team Effectiveness:

  “If you execute without being engaged, there is a cost to your execution.” – Dr. Bridwell (63:39)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Dr. Bridwell’s Backstory & Career Philosophy – 02:20–10:44
• Trust: Recognizing Problems & The Four Seeds – 11:50–17:53
• Building Immediate Trust (Warmth & Strength) – 20:05–25:56
• Culture: How it Works & Where Organizations Fail – 36:00–39:45
• Parenting & Relationship Building with Children – 39:52–47:35
• Followership: Theory and Practice – 47:53–59:50
• Overview of Beyond the Leader & Team Disciplines – 60:24–66:51

Actionable Insights & Practical Tips

• Have explicit discussions with your teams about what trust means, and “how do I win/lose with you?” for each individual.
• When meeting someone new (in sales or leadership): focus on demonstrating warmth (for me, care, compassion) and balanced strength (competence & confidence, but not arrogance).
• Attend to the origin stories that drive your team’s culture; don’t just modify behavior—address beliefs and the stories people are telling.
• Prioritize consistent rituals and emotional conversations with children to maintain influence through difficult adolescence.
• In leadership, recognize the importance of being a good follower; nurture the three followership attributes on your team and in yourself.
• Assess your team’s engagement and execution; don’t follow “successful” models blindly if they come at the cost of burnout and disengagement.

Resources & Book Plug

• Dr. Bridwell’s New Book: Beyond the Leader (available on Amazon) – a story-driven, practical guide to building extraordinary teams by balancing engagement, execution, and the connection of leadership/followership.
• The Follower Effect: More on the duality of leadership and followership.
• Resources for teams to assess and develop the seven team disciplines mentioned.

Memorable Moments

• Dr. Bridwell’s account of being told to consider “the trades” due to undiagnosed dyslexia and the unexpected path that led to architecture and global leadership roles.
• The personal story about Saturday morning breakfasts with his daughter, and the way ritual and curiosity sustain long-lasting parent–child relationships.
• The challenge of defining and actively practicing followership, and the call to leaders to do their own inner work and self-evaluation.

Tone: Warm, conversational, and deeply practical; the episode is filled with laughter, stories, and honest admissions of mistakes and lessons learned. Flood’s questions are insightful, and Dr. Bridwell’s wisdom is accessible and actionable.

For Listeners

• Recommended Action: Hold a “trust roundtable” with your team using the four seeds; discuss what matters to each member.
• Parental Advice: Try a “high/low/emotion” conversation at your next family meal.
• Leadership Self-audit: Reflect on your followership skills; are you an active partner, mission-focused, and an independent critical thinker?

Episode guest Dr. Tony Bridwell’s book, Beyond the Leader, is available now on Amazon. See show notes for the link.