Loading summary
Transcript389 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hey. We are talking all things leadership with our special guest. Welcome to the Upside Podcast, where we help you get unstuck in life and business by elevating your thinking and provoking meaningful change. Always from the inside out. I'm your host, Teresa Flood. Thank you for joining me. And John Luke. Thank you for joining me today.
- [00:17]
B
Pleasure. Thank you.
- [00:18]
A
I am so excited about our guest. You have quite an impressive resume. You are the founder and CEO of the Encompass Group. 25 plus years of experience in helping organizations optimize people and technology. You are a published author, the Art of Talent. And we're going to get into this because I love this part of your bio, but you are known for being a storyteller.
- [00:39]
B
Yes.
- [00:40]
A
And combining that to drive meaningful organizational transformation. So I'm really excited about that part of our conversation today. But you're really focused on building purpose driven companies. And as I've gotten to know the Encompass Group, I have seen that purpose. Just really being on the forefront of everything that you do and how you lead. You're a father and a husband. Yes. And we met because Dr. Tony Bridwell introduced us.
- [01:06]
B
That's correct.
- [01:07]
A
Upside listeners, if you didn't hear my episode back in The Fall with Dr. Tony Bridwell, it was phenomenal. So go back and listen to this one that went after this one. But that's how we connected.
- [01:16]
B
Yes, it is.
- [01:17]
A
And so just a small world. I'm so happy to have you on today and I'm excited just to pick your brain and learn from you on leadership and organizational health and.
- [01:24]
B
Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [01:25]
A
All the things.
- [01:26]
B
Yeah.
- [01:27]
A
Okay. Well, let's start with your story.
- [01:29]
B
Okay.
- [01:29]
A
And tell us about you.
- [01:32]
B
Well, you know, I love. I feel like my story is one that people might be jealous of. I'm so grateful for my. For my background. I have to preface for all your listeners. I was born in Ohio.
- [01:46]
A
Okay.
- [01:47]
B
And then we moved to Texas 30 minutes later. But for all of our Texas friends, I now know that that is, that it doesn't count. I'm still a transplant.
- [01:56]
A
It doesn't count either. I have also been told that I
- [01:58]
B
have no memory of anything other than Texas, But I always lead with that. When we originally moved to Texas, south side of the metroplex. I grew up in Mansfield. When I was in elementary school, moved over to Midlothian. Small town. Everybody knew everybody back in those days. It was great. My parents are two of the most wonderful people you'd ever want to meet. My mom was a schoolteacher. My dad was a purchasing Agent. Just. My brother and I, we. We watch my parents work multiple jobs so that my brother and I could, you know, could have the lives that we have, the education. My brother and I were the first men in our family to go to college.
- [02:35]
A
Amazing.
- [02:36]
B
And I think, you know, when we. When we come up, I think more is caught than is actually taught. And really, my upbringing and my origin story is really one of watching my parents with their work ethic, with their intentionality, with their thoughtfulness, with their presence, as active as they were and as busy as they were. Like, never do I have a memory of them not being in the stands or in the audience or anything like that. And so I'm so grateful for the upbringing you mentioned. Married and kids. I met my wife when I was 12. Her mom was a teacher. My mom was a teacher. And so you're just spending time together after school in a little town like that. And so we got to know one another. We were each other's first car date. I want to call that, like, official. We went to see Jurassic Park.
- [03:20]
A
Okay.
- [03:20]
B
So that'll give you the dates and kind of the timeline there. But went off to a. M. And shoved or crammed four years into about four and a quarter and. And came out and literally, I found my first job in the back of the Dallas Morning News. Because that's how you found jobs back in those.
- [03:39]
A
Okay, yeah, sure.
- [03:40]
B
And I've. I found myself in HR and recruiting.
- [03:43]
A
Okay.
- [03:44]
B
Didn't even know what that was.
- [03:45]
A
What was the pension when you got your degree? What was the dream?
- [03:48]
B
Business. Business management. So, you know, I mentioned the upbringing. I knew at a young age, I really wanted to. I wanted to be. I was very entrepreneurial. I really like building things. And so I wanted to be in business and ideally wanted to. To own and run my own business.
- [04:04]
A
Okay.
- [04:05]
B
I had no idea what. What avenue that would look like or what I would pursue to make that a reality. But, you know, my dad, you know, he had three sick days his entire career. And I realized that, man, if I want to have a little bit of a different style of life, if I want to. If I want to pursue different things, I need a little bit more freedom, a little more flexibility. And the people who I knew, who had kind of pursued that, they seem to have. That. They'd seem to have found that. And so those were the things that sort of attracted me to that. And as a result, yeah, I started my first business when I was 25 years old, and here we are all these years later, and a lot of Lessons learned.
- [04:41]
A
Okay, so you said that you were always entrepreneurial. What was the first entrepreneurial endeavor as a kid? Do you remember selling, like.
- [04:48]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [04:49]
A
That's your backyard.
- [04:51]
B
You know, you're listening depending on the age of your listener. We used to sell stuff for schools.
- [04:54]
A
Yeah, right.
- [04:55]
B
Fundraiser. It was all fundraiser.
- [04:57]
A
Still do some of that. Not much.
- [04:58]
B
It was always, like, there was always a prize, there was always an award, you know, whoever sells the most, like, whatever.
- [05:04]
A
Candy bar.
- [05:05]
B
Yeah, you get, you know, I think it was raffic. So I, I, I, I literally, like, my idea was I'm going to go to car dealerships and I'm going to have them buy wrapping paper and they're going to wrap entire cars for people. This is long before the bow kind of a thing. And that's how, that's how you increase your sale. That's how you increase your. And so I consistently was one of those, you know, hustlers who won all the little school projects.
- [05:30]
A
Size of box and all of that kind of wouldn't make this happen. Okay, all right. So then you graduated, got the first HR job.
- [05:36]
B
Yeah.
- [05:38]
A
So what was that, that next season of life for you and what did you kind of learn from, from that first opportunity?
- [05:44]
B
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I worked for some great people, great leaders, and then I worked for some who I learned equally as much, if maybe not even a little bit more maybe, how not to do things.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah.
- [05:57]
B
And I think really that combination of seeing an effective leader, seeing a compassionate leader who really valued me, valued my. And really brought me into the why, really brought me into the, to the, you know, here's the impact that you actually make in the organization. And then working some jobs where maybe that was not the case. Yeah, I really developed more of what I would consider to be a strategy of, hey, if I'm going to do this, here's the approach, here's the, here's the nuggets that I really liked, here's the things that I probably want to stay away from, maybe some of the potholes that ultimately just kind of created the framework for, you know, that purpose that you've, that you've come to know at the Encompass group. And so I think really, just those first few years were really foundational in learning and really paying attention again, back to a lot of what was caught and maybe less of what was taught to me in business.
- [06:51]
A
My girls have had some opportunities with teachers and coaches and leaders to learn some of the things that they want and some of the things that we've talked about that. You know, we can complain about the things that we don't like, or we can say, hey, this is how I would want to be.
- [07:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [07:06]
A
As I grow in this. So do you think leaders that are. That you would say, okay, those are the leaders. I learned what I didn't want to be. Do you think most of those leaders don't know better? Do you think it's character flaws? What do you think is the core root of the majority? And certainly it's different. But what do you think most of the time, the reason that leaders are poor leaders or toxic leaders?
- [07:32]
B
You know, that's a fantastic question. And there's a lot of people, including my friend Tony, who have spent nearly a lifetime studying this.
- [07:40]
A
Yeah.
- [07:41]
B
You know, I. I feel like I can almost direct it back to our learning principles. I think sometimes it's a. It's a. It's a failure to communicate effectively. Sometimes I would. I would almost mark it with humility, where there maybe is a lack of humility. But if we come back to the learning principles, and this has been on a previous show, so please go back and watch that.
- [08:04]
A
Yeah.
- [08:05]
B
As that episode. But it's the idea that sometimes we just assume that everybody knows that we know to the level that we know it. And as a result, they have a tendency to run way out ahead of everybody. And I don't know that it's necessarily intentional. It's just that I'm so fixated and I've spent enough time processing that I'm going to get out there and I'm going to lead to charge, and I accidentally leave everybody behind. And as a result, people feel lost, they feel neglected, they feel confused, and obviously they look at that and go, man, this is poor leadership.
- [08:37]
A
Yeah.
- [08:38]
B
I think the next one, obviously the second learning principle is never assume, you know, all there is to know. And that's. That's rooted in pride.
- [08:44]
A
Yeah.
- [08:44]
B
I think one of the best, Amy Edmondson, has a quote in her book, and it basically says, the fundamental human challenge is this. It's hard to learn if you already know. And I will say that a lot of times when we see leadership that maybe we don't align with, there's a lot of telling going on. There's a lot of I already know, and as a result, kind of walls go up. This is the way I'm going to plow through and sort of muscle or steamroll into different categories. And as a result, the byproduct of that, again for the people that you might be leading is, wow, I don't have a voice. I'm maybe not trusted. There's no real flexibility and there's no real give. I'm just being bossed and told what to do. And then I think the third one is so equally important. But never confuse knowing and understanding. And this is a big one for me. I feel like oftentimes we go through, we go through any level of leadership. And when you see good leadership and maybe not so good leadership or where there's a lot of opportunity, it's this one right here. It's I'm telling, I've done this and so you must know. And now we're all going to go. But nobody really understands the why. And it comes back to the purpose, right? Why are we doing this? Why now? Why me? Why is this important? Why. Why do it this way? These are a lot of things that we talk about. And when you fail to really land the plane on those things and really connect the dots for individuals, you will oftentimes just find that we've moved on and again, we've left people behind. And so I don't know that it's necessarily like, I'm a bad leader, I'm toxic. There are those, sure. But I don't think people wake up every day going, how can I be a toxic leader? I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I want to look at the upside of things and just say, look, it's not that you don't know how to lead, it's that you've missed a step. And sometimes it's just those little tweaks. I mean, how many times does that happen in a marriage? How many times that happen in a parenting, a relationship with a friend, let alone in the office or in a work environment? And so I think it's some of those key pieces that are just, they're forgotten or they're missed. And as a result, there's an opportunity to really elevate our leadership in those things.
- [10:58]
A
Well, it's easy too to put things in a box as people are good leaders or bad leaders as opposed to we're all in a growth process. And so we assume we, we understand, we don't know there all there is to know. There's always going to be weak areas that we have to continually be growing and improving. And I think sometimes what works yesterday doesn't always work today in the same way or with the same team that you have.
- [11:20]
B
Well, change is the guarantee there, right?
- [11:22]
A
That is the guarantee.
- [11:22]
B
Talk about agility, talk about being adaptable. And I Think when you remember those key fundamental learning principles and we keep those at the forefront. It really doesn't matter how we adjust. As long as we communicate the why, as long as we rally everybody on board that there's a solid understanding of where we're headed, why we're headed here, and really how we're going to execute on that. And then really, I mean, the style of leadership is almost irrelevant because it's a repeatable process that people will follow. Consistency.
- [11:51]
A
Yes.
- [11:51]
B
And so when you have.
- [11:52]
A
That creates the trust.
- [11:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [11:54]
A
And the pillars of trust. Yeah. Okay. So lead us up to starting the Encompass group.
- [11:58]
B
Yeah, boy. So like I said, I knew I wanted to run my own business in some form or fashion. I would tell you that a lot of the things that got me into business are probably the things that would kill my business today. I probably thought I knew all there was to know. Like we just, you know, talked against and I had worked for a couple different organizations, was blessed to be, you know, top sales and all those kind of things. And I was actually visiting with my father in law one day and he said, well, I understand if you're so good, you know, why don't you just do this on your own? And I was like, well, that's easy money. And then all the back office stuff, you know, this is what I do. And I'm less, less intrigued or less interested in some of this stuff.
- [12:44]
A
Yeah, right.
- [12:45]
B
But ultimately I. I took the plunge and started out of my bedroom on a table that I made by hand from Home Depot. My wife sewed this really cute little cover that had a Velcro front so it acted as a nightstand at night and by day.
- [13:05]
A
That's amazing.
- [13:05]
B
Velcro back this little thing. And underneath was a fax machine.
- [13:08]
A
Okay.
- [13:09]
B
So I know I look great for anyone.
- [13:11]
A
All the central. Yeah. Just so you know, they still fax medical records.
- [13:16]
B
Yeah, not at Children's.
- [13:18]
A
Can we talk about Children's Hospital still faxes. I had to. This, this is just important for all them. We digress for a second.
- [13:24]
B
Yeah.
- [13:25]
A
Jillian had a CT scan on her knee. It's all fine.
- [13:27]
B
Yeah.
- [13:28]
A
I had to hand deliver the CD ROM and then fax over the request 2026. It was crazy. Anyways, so.
- [13:37]
B
Yeah, so yeah, so yeah, started out that way and realized, hey, when I want to go on vacation, the company goes on vacation. And so if I'm going to scale beyond myself and you know, these are the steps that have to be taken. And that's what really launched me into what I would consider to be true business ownership and leadership and taking care of other people and really growing the organization holistically. And so it was a. You know, it's funny I look back on those days so fondly, but it's hard. It takes a lot. I mean, if you're really going to do this, there's a level of commitment that you have to buy into.
- [14:19]
A
Yeah. Andrew Weiss and family.
- [14:21]
B
Yeah. If you think it's hands on deck, if you think it's an independent thing. It is not.
- [14:24]
A
It is. Yeah.
- [14:25]
B
Yeah. It is not.
- [14:26]
A
So, so tell us a little bit. You started really as primarily an HR company, is that correct? And then. But you've really grown it. You guys are doing all the things now. Tell us just about the business so people have some context on what this group does.
- [14:41]
B
Well, we started in recruiting HR and recruiting. And so ultimately when you're recruiting for organizations and then you ultimately bring on what I'll describe as contract labor or temporary labor or anything like that, all of a sudden you're in the payroll game and then they're going to want benefits. And so now you're in the benefit space and then you're bound to deal with employee relations issues. And so now you're really in the HR space. And so over time we realized, hey, this isn't scalable, we're going to need technology. And so ultimately you find yourself in the technology space and then you look up one day and you're selling technology and payroll and benefit administration services and you're helping organizations with their employee relations issues and project based work in hr you're helping recruit and then obviously you know, you want to be developed. And so we started developing organizations and, and so now we have transformational consulting, talent acquisition, HR consulting, technology optimization, and some independent applications of technology that we've built on our own. All of them fall sort of under the HR umbrella. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the term terminology hr, but I think it just helps people mentally.
- [15:52]
A
Yeah.
- [15:53]
B
Go to a place in airplane that
- [15:55]
A
you kind of understand where that is at.
- [15:57]
B
I could categorize it for sure in some way, shape or form, but yeah, really all things people.
- [16:01]
A
All things people. So really a company can help. It can hire you guys to help them grow in whatever scalability and capacity that they need to. To get unstuck. Yes to that. Next.
- [16:11]
B
Yeah. Whether it's developing people, whether it's hiring people, whether it's creating efficiencies and automation around the technology that supports the people. Yeah. Again, if it falls under the HR umbrella. We probably have a service offering a technology partner or a partner in the ecosystem that we would work with, which
- [16:26]
A
really, it seems to me in some ways is a complicated business in the sense of you have so many different departments, I would imagine, with different needs, different systems that you're having to create team and congruency in your entire organization, but then run multiple different departments.
- [16:46]
B
Well, yes, Unity is our, is our focus for the year.
- [16:50]
A
Okay.
- [16:51]
B
And it's because of that.
- [16:52]
A
And you have how many employees working for you now?
- [16:54]
B
Just shy of 50. Yeah. So we're a small, we're a small shop.
- [16:57]
A
Yeah.
- [16:58]
B
But the idea behind I do this and I do that and I do this and I do that when in reality we're all part of one team. And so our ability to support and help and provide to all areas of the business has really been a huge focus for us over the year. I think to your point, when you're growing and you're building new verticals and all this, like this one gets attention now, this one gets attention now this one gets attention. And so really being a cohesive team and bringing that all together under the banner of unity and one purpose and you know, one, one vision, I think really has been instrumental for our growth over the last year.
- [17:35]
A
Okay, so let's, let's jump to talking about purpose because it sounds like that is really the core anchor of how your team is operating and running. How did you as a leader really get clarity on purpose for your organization? And then once you have clarity as a leader, how are you distributing that? How are you leading your people in that with vision?
- [18:00]
B
Well, this story starts with my own personal purpose. And I think if you talk to any founder or founder led organization, obviously their DNA is going to be instrumental in, in, in really what that looks like for the organization. Yeah, we actually did this as a, as a leadership team. So I pulled my team together and, and just said, look, when we focus on who do we want to be?
- [18:23]
A
Yeah.
- [18:23]
B
And why are we here? Like why do we do this really? And, and I'm unashamed about my faith and I'm, I'm, I love speaking openly about just the goodness of God and what he has done in my life. But our purpose at the Encompass Group, if you ever come to our office right there in the middle on a 25 foot wall, it says Encompass exists to glorify God and enrich the lives of others. What's awesome is we get to do that through really the banner of hr. And when we say we're in the people business, our opportunity to enrich lives, whether that's helping somebody find a job, helping a company expand and get the right people to grow a new vertical, a new division, whether it's developing individuals, whether it's leaders development, followership, development, maybe it's working with them on their culture, maybe it's creating efficiencies in technology so that they can find a better. You know, I don't like the term work life balance, but everybody understands kind of what that means. And so all of the things that we do, regardless of the number of verticals and the complexity at the Encompass Group, they all can tie back to this idea that we want to execute with excellence, which I believe glorifies God, and we want to love people well and we want to enrich their lives. And so everything just sort of came back to the same anchor, the same foundation. Not everyone inside the walls of the Encompass group necessarily shares the same belief, but what it does is it provides that anchor, that root, that foundation for us to continually kind of point back to. Of are we doing this? And if we're doing this, all of these other things sort of seem to take care of themselves. When you've got the North Star, even if there's, you know, even if there's some. Some waters to navigate. Yeah, we're all moving in the same direction. We're all moving with the same vision, the same intent, the same, you know, again, unity.
- [20:12]
A
Yeah.
- [20:12]
B
And so it's been instrumental to the success at the UN Compass Group.
- [20:16]
A
It's the filter than everyone is making decisions through. Right. When you have that alignment and core values. So when you're hiring somebody to be on that team, how. How quickly are you talking about vision and purpose to find alignment versus maybe. I think there's a lot of focus in. In recruiting and hiring on skill.
- [20:35]
B
Yeah.
- [20:35]
A
And talent versus culture and alignment. So where do you find that balance? Because certainly there has to be skill and talent.
- [20:41]
B
Absolutely.
- [20:42]
A
Also for the role that comes to the table. It can't just be a cultural fit. So how does that play in.
- [20:48]
B
Yeah, it's. I will tell you, it's part of every conversation.
- [20:50]
A
Yeah.
- [20:51]
B
And even after someone's been hired, it's. It's just about. Again, it just anchors everything back to some central, central point, I think. You know, when we hire for skill and we missed. We missed that, that foundational element, what you'll find is organizations, they terminate for culture. And so I think it's a. It's a terrible mistake that I see organizations make. Now. There are There are some instances where we have a necessity, we are required. We got to get somebody in here, we've got a backlog of work. We have to have this skill set. And sometimes I'll see organizations, they'll take a flyer. Yeah. And then what you get into is development of now we need to develop the individual into and really onboard into our, our way of doing things. But when you can't find alignment there, I find oftentimes that it's pretty short lived. And really the generation that's coming into the workforce today, they want to find alignment with, with the why behind what they do. Skill set is so easily taught. I mean, in the world of AI and so many things we can, we can teach specifically how we want things to be done. If you think about hiring somebody over a period of time, let's say they work, work for you for a year, their skill set doesn't degrade. If anything, it's improved, it's enhanced. They've learned how you do things.
- [22:08]
A
Right.
- [22:10]
B
And so really it becomes that element of why is this not why are we, why are we. Why do I feel the tension? Why is this not working the way I want it to work? And very, very rarely is it skill set thing. And so I think it has to be part of your initial conversations.
- [22:25]
A
Yeah. Okay, so how do you define great leadership in today's environment?
- [22:34]
B
That's a great question.
- [22:35]
A
Has it evolved? Has it changed over time? Is the great leader different today than it was in the past or are those foundational things? Yes and right and true.
- [22:44]
B
My question to you would be is how do you define great leadership? Yeah, and I think what we would find is, is when we, if we polled 50 people and said, hey, give me your best definition of great leadership, what you're going to find is 50 different answers.
- [22:58]
A
Right.
- [22:59]
B
And I think more often than not they will anchor to some very specific things that we naturally gravitate to in the way of trust, in the way of compassion, in the way of humility. And so I would, I would answer that question with the greatest level of leadership that I see in the marketplace today, typically evolves around the greatest followers. And what I mean by that, and this is not a new topic to you, I know you've heard this, but we teach so much about leadership and we don't teach very much about followership. And it used to be that you were either or right, you know, positionally.
- [23:40]
A
Yeah.
- [23:41]
B
From a title perspective, from an org perspective, whatever, you are either a leader or you are a follower and the
- [23:46]
A
followers are Less than the leader. Everybody's behind. Right.
- [23:49]
B
You just need to get behind the leader.
- [23:50]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [23:50]
B
And follow the leader. I mean, that's literally. I think there's a game that played as kids, follow the leader. When in reality we're both and. And it's really one or the other side of the same coin.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah.
- [24:02]
B
And the best leaders, especially in this market, especially in this generation, are the ones who can so quickly adapt and flip from leader to follower very effectively. It's rooted in humility. We talk a lot about servant leadership. That's a term that's been out there.
- [24:20]
A
Yeah.
- [24:21]
B
Forever. But really and truly, it's, it's, it's my ability to. When it's my turn to lead, how I do that, how I do that with compassion, how I do that from a position of understanding, not just knowing, but understanding.
- [24:34]
A
Right.
- [24:36]
B
And then when it's not my time to lead, maybe it's my time to lead from the back. How do I follow? How do I effectively come alongside? How am I curious? How am I asking questions in such a way? And it's really where the whole premise of story collector comes from. I don't think you can be an effective leader if you're not asking the right stories. You need to genuinely hear and understand what are the challenges that you're faced with. And I don't care. I mean, for your listeners, it's either maybe it's a team that I'm leading, maybe it's a client that I'm trying to work with.
- [25:05]
A
Right.
- [25:05]
B
What's your greatest need? Where do you find the greatest challenges? What do you perceive to be the greatest opportunity?
- [25:10]
A
Right.
- [25:11]
B
Rather than me just coming in as a leader and saying, here's how we're going to do this, we're going to charge the hill and take that and we're going to do that. That used to be sort of a perception of leadership. And I think today it's so different.
- [25:22]
A
So different.
- [25:23]
B
And so that's how I would, would view high level leadership is really the ability to flip back and forth. Very nimble. In a nimble fashion.
- [25:32]
A
Yeah.
- [25:33]
B
Um, and really with a lot of curiosity and questions to really uncover where's the opportunity for us to really be effective in our leadership.
- [25:41]
A
Yeah. Well, if you think too, as a leader, really the next step of leadership is leading other leaders.
- [25:47]
B
Absolutely.
- [25:48]
A
Right. Growing other leaders. Right. That you don't just have a bunch of followers. And so to fall into that followership versus leadership, you'll never lead leaders if you're never in a followership Followership type.
- [25:58]
B
Yes.
- [25:59]
A
Face as well. So, so good. So good.
- [26:03]
B
Have you seen. We use a. We use a picture. I feel like a picture is just worth a thousand. But we use the peloton.
- [26:09]
A
Okay.
- [26:09]
B
Oftentimes to tell this story.
- [26:11]
A
I hate the peloton.
- [26:12]
B
It's. Well, well, I. We're like, not the peloton brand, but the actual peloton of riders in a line.
- [26:20]
A
Okay.
- [26:21]
B
Working together.
- [26:22]
A
I'm having visions of the peloton.
- [26:24]
B
Yes, I know. Yes. Trust me. I have a treadmill. It's amazing. But the bike is. I don't know. I just. I can't. I can't do it.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah.
- [26:30]
B
So. But when you have all of the writers.
- [26:33]
A
Yeah.
- [26:34]
B
You'll have. You'll have the team captain oftentimes who's starting out, and they're the ones in front. They're cutting the wind, they're taking, you know, an additional 30% energy. That's really saving the team. And you've got people on the team with different gifts, different talents. Maybe somebody's better at hills, somebody's better at tones, somebody's better at. And the effective teams that really do well are when that leader knows, hey, somebody else is better suited in this moment and they can drop out of the lead.
- [27:04]
A
Wow.
- [27:04]
B
And they can come back into the line. They can then recharge a little bit.
- [27:08]
A
So good.
- [27:09]
B
Let someone who. Their gift, their talent is more suited for that to then take over. If you have the leader who never gives up lead position and is always charging the hill, you're never going to win that race. And so it really is the collective knowledge of, let me move, let me let you go and let you ride. And I think that's where it's a great picture of effective leadership and effective followership, of coming into the back to allow somebody else to really drive the team forward.
- [27:41]
A
Well, it's a picture of humility, but also of knowing who your team is and knowing who is going to take that next lead at the right time. Because you know your people's strengths. You know what they're great at.
- [27:50]
B
Yes.
- [27:50]
A
And then having the humility to back out and to recharge.
- [27:53]
B
Absolutely.
- [27:53]
A
I mean, how many leaders burn out because they're never recharging? And then they lose great team members because those team members never have the opportunity to grow and to lead.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah. I think exhaustion is the number one cause of turnover. Disengagement of a variety of things that in the people space, everybody's trying to solve for.
- [28:12]
A
Yeah.
- [28:12]
B
And they miss some of these real simple, fundamental, you know, things that I
- [28:17]
A
think that exhaustion is. What's the root of the exhaustion? Not necessarily physical exhaustion.
- [28:22]
B
Yeah.
- [28:23]
A
What's the root of that burnout and exhaustion?
- [28:25]
B
Well, when I. The time when I feel like I always have to lead, there's never an off.
- [28:29]
A
Okay.
- [28:30]
B
And sadly, I feel like for a lot of people, we're all told that we're leaders.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah.
- [28:34]
B
And rightfully so. But when there's never an off, when there's never a rest, when there's never a. I'm always on, I'm always responding, I'm always connected, I'm always even with the best of intentions. And who do you typically, you know, who do you typically go to if you need something done? It's mission critical for the organization.
- [28:52]
A
Right.
- [28:52]
B
You're going to go to your most engaged people.
- [28:54]
A
Right.
- [28:55]
B
And so we're constantly giving them even more. And sadly, by accident, oftentimes we see organizations just. They just wear down and they become less effective, they become less efficient, they become less engaged, and as a result, they suffer. And that can be in turnover, that can be in revenue, that can be in productivity. It can be in a variety of things that you might measure.
- [29:21]
A
Okay, let's chat a little bit more about being a story collector.
- [29:25]
B
Okay.
- [29:25]
A
Yeah, I love that. Just as a picture, and it tells so much about who you are, really. But share just a little bit about what that really touched on in a bit. But what does that really mean to you?
- [29:36]
B
Yeah.
- [29:37]
A
How does a leader become a story collector? What are the practical steps that anybody can do to develop this as a. As a mindset, but as a skill set?
- [29:46]
B
Yeah, I love the question. And I will tell you, I can't tell you how many times I've sat with people and they tell me, they're like, I want to be a better listener. And that's fantastic. That's a great. That's like saying, I want to be in better shape. It's like, my doctor already knows this. Like, I'm supposed to eat healthy and exercise, and I know I want to do it right. I just don't know how to stick with it. And so what I tell people is the skill set to develop here is you need to. You need to learn to ask better questions. And if you will, you know, God gave us two ears, one mouth, one brain. The lessons that I've learned is when I get those things out of order and am I. Before my brain kicks in my mouth and I haven't really listened or I'm listening, just waiting to respond with you know, something that I think is going to be, you know, profound and a good response to someone, but actually sitting back and, and learning the exercise of asking questions. And there's so many little fun games, like we sit around the dinner table and there's this little stack of cards that you know, you know your family as good as anybody, but asking questions to kind of get a little bit deeper with people. I think we kind of find ourselves in a, in a society where I already know and, and I've, I've seen enough of you or, or you know, whatever that I, I perceive, I know enough, maybe I know all there is to know and therefore I'm just going to come with my solution rather than asking good questions. And for me it was just a, it was a year long exercise of I want to be asking questions all the time. And I literally, I got with some people and they're like, why so many questions? Like, because I genuinely want to understand. And what's amazing is, is after you get through the first three or four, and this is, this is a great exercise, I do it with my wife. Once you get past the, how was your day? What did you do today? What's for dinner? And maybe what's the update on the kids?
- [31:41]
A
Yeah, right.
- [31:42]
B
If I had to go 20 more questions with you, I'm actually going to get to some real meat in your day or maybe what was going through your head, or maybe something that you struggled with or maybe something that you, and then we can have a more meaningful dialogue, more meaningful conversation. And it's true in business, it's true in leading a team, it's true with a clientele. It's the idea of, hey, what are you really looking for? You know, help me understand what, what is it about this that stands out to you? Why is this so important to you? Tell me the backstory to that. And man, amazingly, you, you will get into all kinds of area that you never would have, would have stepped into before with someone. And what they find is, hey, you genuinely want to hear me, you genuinely want to know me, therefore you must genuinely care. And as a result, I trust you. And man, who doesn't want that on their team, who doesn't want that with their customer base, who doesn't want that in their marriage, who doesn't want that?
- [32:38]
A
Yeah.
- [32:38]
B
And so when you say, how does anyone actually do this? I would encourage you. There's little apps on your phone of like, hey, if you could take, you know, I think the one that I just read recently was like, your Ideal vacation, money is no object. Where would you go and why? And you really just, you just did. In this practice of asking questions of people. And so when it's in a team setting, when it's in a work setting, hey, where do you see the greatest opportunity for us? What are the roadblocks that you perceive? I have an opinion, but I want to hear from you first.
- [33:09]
A
Good.
- [33:10]
B
And so really asking, I think more meaningful questions is really how you become a story collector. It's how you get to the root of people. It's where you really learn their heart and what's really most important to them. And so that's. That was the exercise that I like to do.
- [33:24]
A
Yeah.
- [33:25]
B
Which is why this is so weird because you asking me questions, normally I would be like, okay, so it's a resettlement. More like I want to understand.
- [33:31]
A
So nope, what we're doing today is my turn to practice question that it is though being on the receiving side of questions being asked, there's also a lot of clarity when somebody asks you great questions.
- [33:43]
B
Yes.
- [33:44]
A
Because I think so many of us, we don't stop to think or we don't really so.
- [33:49]
B
Good.
- [33:50]
A
And so the person on the receiving end maybe would have never articulated it, would have never thought of it that way. They get so much clarity on their motivations, their purpose, what they really think.
- [33:59]
B
Yes.
- [33:59]
A
But it is a slowing down. So do you have a system for asking questions at work? Meaning certain meetings that you always ask questions, you have one on ones with the people who directly report to you. You go to the people that don't report to you directly. Is there a system or a framework that you do that or is it just, it's informal.
- [34:19]
B
I would give you like a three step process or something like that, but I don't do that. For me, it really was initially, it was just I have to ask more questions. I think the other thing that we have learned when you mentioned clarity, something very important to teams, specifically the teams that we have at Encompass, is really what, you know, what's, what's the next step? I'm a big next step guide because if we leave with ambiguity, nothing happened, nothing, nothing ever gets accomplished. So what's the next step? The tangible next steps? Who's going to own that? Give me a timeline like so that we can all come back. And there's a level of accountability in clarity of I know this, we, I understand this, we talked about this. Here's who's in charge of this, here's when it's expected so that when we come back together, that progress made, progress needed. Cadence becomes so natural.
- [35:11]
A
Yes.
- [35:11]
B
And then progress made, progress needed. We need to do this. Great. Who's going to own this? What's the timeline? What's the tangible next step? And so every single time you're making meaningful progress in moving towards something from a question perspective, those are kind of the key questions that I would say for our meetings. And then I think there's other stuff that. Questions that I often ask, you know, for some of your listeners. You probably got people who are, you know, they're running a business, maybe they're thinking about growing, they're thinking about, you know, maybe reinventing something. And I think these are. There's questions that we also need to ask of ourselves. I'm loving watching the Olympics right now. Yeah, I there, I just blows my mind that I would. Somebody told me once that you can, you can tell anyone that you're an Olympic hopeful and they can't really, they can't really check you on that. I was like, that's genius. It's probably not a true story for me, but. But anyway, I'm loving watching the Olympics. And there's a. There's a sports psychologist that meets with all of the biggest names, some of these Olympic athletes and professional athletes and stuff like that. And there's three questions that she typically asks. And I think it's so beneficial for business leadership, for business ownership, anybody who has an entrepreneurial spirit. And the three questions are, what do you really want? What do you really want? And to your point, I don't know that people actually are honest with themselves to slow down enough and say, well, what I really want is this. Yeah, okay, great question.
- [36:43]
A
Scary answer.
- [36:43]
B
It is, it is. You got to look deep inside. Question number two. What are you willing to do to make that a reality? And I think there's a lot of people who, well, you know, I'm willing to put in the extra work and I'm willing to grind and I'm willing to take some risks and I'm willing to whatever. And it's the third question that usually becomes very unsettling for people. And it's how much are you willing to suffer to make that happen? And I think all of a sudden people are like, well, I don't really want to do that. Well, then you don't really want this. And so there are a series of questions that I find very interesting that when you really get to know someone and you really have the opportunity to speak into them, to ask some very thought provoking Questions that really uncover the true why, which ultimately can lead back to purpose and all of those other things that we talk about.
- [37:32]
A
Well, it is what separates that top 1% in any industry. No doubt about it. They think differently. They're willing to do things other people aren't willing to do. I was listening to a podcast at the gym this week, Craig Groeschel's leadership podcast. He had on a sports or a psychologist. I believe they have co written a book together. Um, but he was talking about how top 1 percenters, their ability to endure hard things is really what separates them. And to, to be extraordinary not just in ordinary, but to be extraordinary all the time.
- [38:06]
B
Yes.
- [38:07]
A
When things and. And I think that's true when you look and sports is such a great example. I think that everybody's just so obvious.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah. There's a word like my friend Tony. I really enjoy the root of a lot of words, but I think the word for me that I would look for in somebody to see if they can actually. If they actually can do it is perseverance.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah.
- [38:28]
B
Yeah. So if you have that 1% ability to persevere through the suffering, through the challenge, through the risk, through the, through the upside and the downside, very quickly you can kind of discern long term leadership capabilities and things like that. Yeah.
- [38:44]
A
I think about that as a parent. Daughter broke her nose in the ice. But what a gift that she experiences something in her world that hard.
- [38:52]
B
Yeah.
- [38:53]
A
Didn't break her.
- [38:53]
B
Yeah.
- [38:54]
A
Broken nose get through this. And yet it tells her then that she can do hard things.
- [38:59]
B
Yeah.
- [38:59]
A
Right. It just sets that groundwork.
- [39:01]
B
Absolutely. So good.
- [39:04]
A
Okay. We've been all over the place, talk about people optimization.
- [39:11]
B
Yeah.
- [39:11]
A
Because that is I think a buzzword really. Optimizing people. What does that mean to you in the encompass group? What does that mean as far as people development and really optimizing the people that we lead?
- [39:22]
B
Yeah. There's a. You can go to chat GPT and you can just say define optimization.
- [39:28]
A
Yeah.
- [39:29]
B
And it'll give you a really beautiful description of maximizing efficiency, effectiveness, cohesion, all of these different things. But if I were to just boil it down, I think it's doing the most you can, getting the best results with what you have. And I think about that in the people world, you know, I'm never going to dunk a basketball like this is just not reality for me. But I do have certain gifts and certain talents and things that I am good at. And so maximizing those strengths with someone else's strengths in a team environment and Bringing those things together, that's optimization. That is, that is where one plus one equals five.
- [40:17]
A
Yeah.
- [40:18]
B
And so when we talk about people optimization within organizations, oftentimes, you know, there's, there's old, old. I mean, none of this is new. Like right people, right seats kind of stuff. If you go back to even the, the fundamentals of good to great, the concept of do we have the right people? Do we have them in the right positions? Do we have the, is the motivation correct?
- [40:40]
A
Yeah.
- [40:40]
B
Is there clear direction? Are we, are we clear on our purpose? Are we clear on our vision? Are we clear on the results? And so I think all of those things bring the ability to truly optimize a team, optimize individuals. I think development, you know, obviously a lot of what you do. How do I optimize myself as an individual? Well, I need to continue to learn, I need to continue to grow. I need to continue to expand how I view things, how I think. A growth, mindset.
- [41:06]
A
Yeah.
- [41:07]
B
Perseverance. All of these things that we're talking about, all of those things help me optimize. And the more optimized I am, the more optimized someone else is. When we come together now and plus one equals ten. Yeah. And so that to me is a very fundamental, like simple, basic explanation of people optimization. We can get into all kinds of unique, you know, how does that sync up to strategy and key results for an organization? And do we have the effect, the right people strategy to really hit the key results that we're after as an organization? Do we have the right structure? Are we deploying an old strategy or a new strategy on an old structure and expecting something from people who we haven't developed to go do some new thing. And obviously a lot of times that's where results are missed and so helping people understand that. But to me, I think optimization is kind of like, I don't know, it's like the word engagement.
- [41:55]
A
Yeah.
- [41:55]
B
You know, what does that mean to you? And I think really just a, at a, if you boil it all down, it's just we're going to do the most, most we can with what we have.
- [42:06]
A
So something you said. Would you agree that you can't really optimize a person outside a team, meaning a person is not their optimal without being surrounded by other people in there, you know what I'm saying?
- [42:20]
B
I see the question. I think I understand. I would tell you that, you know, when we teach at the encompass group, we teach through three lenses, personal, professional and organizational. And I think all three are equally as important. So if you are not healthy yourself, if you're not kind of your best version of you, and then I bring you into a team, it may not necessarily be fully optimal. And so I think the personal element of making sure that you are as optimized as you can be.
- [42:57]
A
Yeah.
- [42:57]
B
And then I bring you together with other people who also are as optimized as they can be. We create this team environment. We optimize together. Now we've elevated that you get enough of these teams within an organization and the organization naturally elevates. And so I kind of see it in that order.
- [43:13]
A
Yeah.
- [43:14]
B
And so I do think that when you've got, you know, a lot of healthy people and you bring them together for a common purpose, a common cause, it really is great things can happen. Not that an individual can't be exceptional.
- [43:28]
A
Right.
- [43:29]
B
But, you know, who's Michael Jordan without. Without the rest of the team.
- [43:33]
A
Yeah.
- [43:34]
B
And so I don't know, again, watching the Olympics, there's so many of these team sports that are out there that, yeah, you might have a standout player, but without the rest of the team around them, they're never going to be fully optimized. And so I do see your individual
- [43:48]
A
has a coach or has a. You write a support team or has a doctor, you know.
- [43:52]
B
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [43:55]
A
What do you see as the most untapped potentials. Potential in most companies today that. That are. That you're going in and doing consulting. Just big picture. What do you think most companies are missing?
- [44:08]
B
Yeah, that's a fantastic question. I think it varies a little bit, but if I had to just bucket a couple for you.
- [44:13]
A
Yeah.
- [44:14]
B
I would say clarity. Okay. Clarity and communication.
- [44:18]
A
Okay.
- [44:19]
B
I think another is that because the
- [44:20]
A
leader isn't clear,
- [44:23]
B
you know, so just had, just had lunch last week with a group of executives from a company. They're doing really well. Big, big profit margins. Big, big. I mean, everything about them, they look really, really good.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah.
- [44:36]
B
And when we sit and visit with them, they themselves are not clear on what's next for the organization.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah.
- [44:44]
B
You know, they've been successful. Sometimes success is a horrible teacher.
- [44:47]
A
Yeah.
- [44:48]
B
And so as they look to the future, it's like, well, what? Like what's next for the organization? And they can't really put their finger on something.
- [44:56]
A
Okay.
- [44:56]
B
And if your executive leadership team can't put their finger on what's next, what strategies are we going to deploy? Well, I'm not really sure because I don't really know what targets we're trying to hit. I think one of the biggest mistakes is we're just going to do more. Yeah. Yeah. And more.
- [45:12]
A
It's not a business.
- [45:13]
B
We come back to the exhausting, you know, kind of a thing. And so if they're not clear, there's no way you can convince me that the, the people down on, on the org tree who are frontline, assembling something, building something, servicing something, selling something are, are more clear somehow than those, those folks at the top. And so I think clarity in direction, clarity in, in focus, clarity in vision is a, is a, it's, it's just low hanging fruit.
- [45:42]
A
Yeah.
- [45:43]
B
And again, it probably comes back to some of those questions of, hey, what, what do we want? I don't know, what do we want to do? What do we want to be about? What do we want to, what do we want to see happen? And they're so busy doing, doing that they're just missing an opportunity to slow down. And honestly, that's where having a coach, having a consultant, having somebody sit down and just facilitate a little bit of focus.
- [46:04]
A
Yeah.
- [46:05]
B
And asking a few key questions all of a sudden. I mean, there's just, there's so much juice.
- [46:10]
A
Yeah.
- [46:10]
B
I think the other element that I would probably pinpoint is development. I think right now we're overloaded. Our, our partners, our employees, our, whoever are overloaded with information right now and the ease of access to get to things. And I think because, you know, there's all these amazing podcasts that I can listen to and there's all these amazing books and there's all these amazing influencers that I can watch and there's all these amazing videos. Very poison to me that I should, I should be developed.
- [46:45]
A
Yeah.
- [46:45]
B
And the reality of it is, is it's, I see less and less of it, sadly, in organizations because we're, we're driving now so hard to operational efficiency, leveraging AI margins, shareholder, you know, dividends and stock prices and all these other things that I feel like the pendulum is sadly swinging a little, a little too hard in one particular direction and we're losing out on that developmental opportunity. I will tell you that one of the best things we ever did at Encompass, we actually brought in somebody to do a parenting seminar that does not in any way help our, you know, there's no direct line to our customers, to our bottom line, to our margins, our verticals, to an offering. But it was so well received and so appreciated and so that truly developing people and really caring for people. Now all of a sudden, engagement goes up, execution goes up. Like buy in is Up, I trust I'm more valued, I'm more hurt. I'm more. And these are not expensive things. They're ways for organizations to invest in their people. And then there is a byproduct of all of these things that do ultimately lead to something that probably does impact the bottom line of the organization.
- [48:03]
A
Sure. Because if they're happy at home and they're functional at home and they have peace at home, they're coming into the office focused on the, on the purpose of the organization.
- [48:13]
B
More optimized.
- [48:14]
A
More optimized.
- [48:14]
B
And as a result. Yeah. So I, I would probably pinpoint those two as just easy opportunity out there for organizations to, to spend a little bit of time and devote something into.
- [48:27]
A
I love it. What habits separate leaders from the pack? The best of the best leaders. What habits? Asking questions I think would probably be your. Maybe be one of your number one. It's up.
- [48:41]
B
It's up there.
- [48:42]
A
What other habits do you think that a leader does personally or in the framework of their business?
- [48:48]
B
Boy, that is such a good question. You know, I, I'm trying to think of some of the most influential leaders I've ever had in my life. And there are, there are so many things about them that stand out to me. But I would tell you that humility is probably the first thing that jumps to my mind. I think consistency is another one. Yeah, there is a. I always knew. I always knew kind of where I stood. I always knew what I was going to get. There was a consistent expectation. There wasn't a lot of roller coaster. And so consistency would absolutely be a word that I would, I would think of, you know, compassionate, where you feel safe. Yeah, those are some of the greatest leaders. I knew that they would step in front of a bullet for me. I knew that they would, you know, they would constantly be available for me. And so I think, I think those are a lot of characteristics. But sadly, those are the characteristics I think often of, oftentimes of good followers. Right. That leadership, followership that we talk about. And so to me, those are. When I think about the most influential leaders in my life, those are the characteristics that jump out to me.
- [50:09]
A
Yeah. Humility has been a thread, I think, from the very beginning of our conversation all the way through. And certainly life has a way of humbling us, and yet there's a lot of people that go through failure that don't turn out humble. So it's not a guaranteed humbler.
- [50:24]
B
True.
- [50:25]
A
How can we as leaders practice humility? What is a way of becoming more humble besides just Life happening to us, or the Lord saying, I'm going to humble you. Now's your moment.
- [50:42]
B
I was going to say, and this
- [50:43]
A
is your big stage.
- [50:44]
B
You try to get it two ways. I choose it.
- [50:46]
A
Yes. Or how do you choose it?
- [50:48]
B
Or it's thrust up.
- [50:49]
A
Yes, yes.
- [50:50]
B
You know, I would love to be able to tell you that I've nailed that every time.
- [50:53]
A
Yeah.
- [50:54]
B
Sadly, I think the, the times that I've been humbled.
- [50:57]
A
Yeah.
- [50:57]
B
Are probably the ones that stand out to me. But when I tell you that we go in and we teach organizations, we try to teach humility, I mean, that's really what we're teaching when we're teaching leadership skills. We're really teaching a level of humility. You go back to the learning principles. Never assume everybody knows what you know. Never assume you know all there is to know. These are things that you could almost regurgitate from kindergarten. And here we are inside of, you know, a couple Fortune 500 companies trying to get this across. But humility, for me, I, I, I would love to tell you that you can just choose humility. Humility. And you can. And I think it comes through questions. It comes through, it comes through slowing down and listening. There are little phrases. You know, I, I, I have an opinion, but I, I want to hear what you think first. And really drawing people into the conversation. I think that perspective of leadership, really, it brings people in. But the stories that I would have for you are, I got it wrong. I got it wrong. And I skinned my knees and I crashed and burned, and I found myself sitting in the quiet in those moments of being humbled.
- [52:20]
A
Yeah.
- [52:20]
B
And realizing, wow, I chose porn.
- [52:24]
A
Yeah.
- [52:25]
B
I should have, I should have done things a little bit different. And by the grace of God, I would tell you that I've, I've, I've received grace in a lot of those areas. And so those are the lessons that, that do stick with you, that you do remember. And so, yeah, I, that's a fantastic question. My answer probably is not what you're, what you're hoping for, but it is, it is a choice that we get to have every day. I try every day to make the right choice and choose humility. It doesn't always happen so well.
- [52:57]
A
And kind of like you said, failure is still part of the journey.
- [53:01]
B
Absolutely.
- [53:01]
A
We don't achieve to the point that we no longer fail. Right. The growth process is about, yeah, I'm failure.
- [53:06]
B
I never really learned anything from winning. It's all the loss that I've taken that I'm like Wow. I will not do that again. Or, boy, that was a great lesson. Or, man, we gotta watch out for that next time. Those are. Those are the lessons usually that I've. I've walked away with, with a lot of nuggets.
- [53:22]
A
What if I never asked you about that I should ask you about.
- [53:25]
B
You know, I would. There's an aspect of my story that I just. I want to share because I feel a burden for. For a lot of business leaders, and especially right now, it just. It's. Business can be hard. It can be hard.
- [53:40]
A
No doubt.
- [53:42]
B
I have walked through 911 leading an organization. I have walked through 0809. You know, in the financial downturn, Covid, I think, was just, you know, revolutionary for the world and how we operate, how we do business. But I think for a lot of your listeners, there's a striving that takes place. There's a. There's a grind.
- [54:06]
A
Yeah.
- [54:07]
B
And if I knew how to get away from it 100%, I. I would. This would be the last podcast. Just communicate whatever that is.
- [54:14]
A
Yeah. We would be done.
- [54:15]
B
You would have lightning in a bottle, and you just start selling that, and we'd be done. But I. I feel like there's a natural. Survive that and grind that a lot of business leaders have, and we hit a position in our business, and, man, it was just such a unique story that from the day I started 22 years ago, every year was a growth year. Every year. Even in. Even in 09, there was, you know, we. We launched a new vertical. And somehow, you know, as one vertical was coming down, the other was coming up, and they. They intersect right about where profitability was. Yeah. Just a miracle.
- [54:54]
A
Yeah.
- [54:56]
B
And over the years, we had just had. We had had such a great run of growth and growth and growth and growth. So much so that that almost became the expectation and that I would measure my. My worth against that. That. That percentage.
- [55:13]
A
Right.
- [55:14]
B
And so when you see that begin to teeter, when you see that begin to, you know, that needle to move all of a sudden, like there's this natural inclination that we who have persevered. Well, I just need to put my shoulder to the plow, and I need to, you know, I need to. I need to push harder now.
- [55:31]
A
Yeah.
- [55:33]
B
And we muscle the result, if you will.
- [55:36]
A
Yeah.
- [55:36]
B
And, man, we talked about exhaustion. We talked about, you know, really what that does to us. I'm no longer optimized. I'm tired, and now I'm telling a lot of people. And there's, you know, now I'm taking My expectations, and I'm shifting that off on everybody else.
- [55:50]
A
Yeah.
- [55:50]
B
And that becomes the story that we're telling. And probably about five or six years ago, we had. We had the first year where we were not going to experience the growth that I was expecting. And I had this. I had a moment where I just kind of withdrew and sort of stopped for a moment. And it was not like me, but just. I need. I need a break.
- [56:21]
A
Yeah.
- [56:21]
B
And not anything as lengthy as a sabbatical, but I just need to step away.
- [56:25]
A
Yeah.
- [56:25]
B
And I need to rethink maybe how I'm doing this. And, you know, I mentioned earlier just how foundational my faith has been for me and my journey.
- [56:36]
A
Yeah.
- [56:37]
B
And there was a day that I walked into my office and I closed the door and I got down on my knees and I just spoke very openly and candidly with the Lord, and I told him, I said, hey, if this. You know, if this is going to go. If this is going to grow, it's because you cause it to thrive. And if you burn the place down, I'll shut the lights off on the way out and I'll go figure something else out. And I share that story because there was such a freedom and a release for me of surrender and, like, giving all of that hard work and all of that striving and all of that pushing and all of that, the sweat, the blood, sweat and tears behind all of that.
- [57:23]
A
Right.
- [57:25]
B
And just kind of giving it to somebody else. And what it did was it changed the way I viewed things as a business leader to more of a steward, to more of a, you know, shepherd's probably too strong of a word, but I'll just say to be a good steward of. Of what. Of what I was called to oversee. And man, wouldn't you know, it, our culture had a radical shift. Our levels of engagement went through the roof. Our business doubled in 22 months. And I'm not saying that that is the magic formula for somebody to double their business. Yeah. I'm just telling you my personal experience. But I will tell you it is the magic formula to a different level of peace, a different level of perspective on leading teams, leading organizations, running a business. And man alive, the freedom that I experienced in that. I just. I can't tell that story fast enough.
- [58:24]
A
Yeah.
- [58:25]
B
In the marketplace, to people that I get to come in contact with, who are. They're in that striving.
- [58:29]
A
Yeah.
- [58:30]
B
They're in that. I can't ever really disconnect. I can't ever really turn it off.
- [58:34]
A
Yeah.
- [58:35]
B
And I think for any, you know, all the type A leaders that we have.
- [58:38]
A
Yeah.
- [58:39]
B
That is a challenge. That is the struggle.
- [58:41]
A
Yeah.
- [58:42]
B
And so it was just so radically transformative for me. And then the byproduct of what we experienced in the business, I just, again, I can't encourage it enough. And, you know, regardless of someone's faith, the actual practice of just shifting your thinking of what's mine.
- [59:04]
A
Yeah.
- [59:05]
B
Versus what I'm just called to steward, in some sense, radically changes, I think, how we view people, how we view the business in general, and really where we can kind of find rest in some sense.
- [59:21]
A
So. Good.
- [59:21]
B
Yeah.
- [59:22]
A
Well. And in that moment, you've really lived out the purpose of glorifying God and enriching the lives of others, regardless of what the numbers were on the board. And yet, you know, when you glorify God, enrich the lives of, of others.
- [59:33]
B
Yeah. The byproduct.
- [59:35]
A
The byproduct is going to be the growth and the profit and all of that.
- [59:38]
B
Yeah.
- [59:39]
A
So good.
- [59:40]
B
Yeah.
- [59:40]
A
Okay. Give us your best book rec. Favorite book maybe of all time or maybe what you read last year that
- [59:47]
B
you think, okay, well, aside from the Bible, I would tell you. So my good friend Dr. Tony Bridwell, his latest book that's out, which you already had him on here, and everybody's already ordering that.
- [60:00]
A
Well, that's okay. I'll tell everybody again.
- [60:03]
B
So. Well, the one that I'm genuinely excited about, there's a, There's a new release of the Follower Effect coming out, and it's coming out in. Oh, I should have, I should have. I should have known the date, but it's coming out soon under, under Wiley, the publisher that he has, and it really is.
- [60:20]
A
I got a secret copy of it.
- [60:21]
B
I know you do.
- [60:22]
A
It's so good.
- [60:23]
B
It's, it's, it's basically the. Again, we talk about leadership and followership, I think that is so instrumental in, again, how we view leadership. And it's, it's parable form. It's a great story that really highlights a lot of those things. And so aside from his, you know, bestseller that he's got out right now, that's, that's the one that I think that I'm, I'm probably most excited to see come out again because it's just a natural part of our dialogue. Also for your. For your listeners who are way more nerdy and, you know, really want to get into, like, a deep read.
- [60:56]
A
Okay.
- [60:57]
B
There's a lot of meat in this. It's a hard read because just when it was written. But there's a book called Humility and it's only about yay big.
- [61:04]
A
Okay.
- [61:05]
B
But it was written in the 1800s and please pick up the version that has been redone with modern day English.
- [61:13]
A
Okay.
- [61:14]
B
It's a whole lot easier. The first, first copy that I got also humbled you just reading it once I got to the first chapter and I'm like, you know, I've got multiple degrees. I don't even know what I just read. This makes no sense to me.
- [61:24]
A
Perfect. The other book was effective.
- [61:26]
B
So the other one, the other one that's been released in modern day speak. Yeah, it's again, it's a very short read, but it is one that I will probably read every year for the rest of my life.
- [61:38]
A
Oh, wow. Yeah, So I will pick that one up.
- [61:40]
B
That one is Humility.
- [61:40]
A
Never been on my radar.
- [61:42]
B
Yeah. Those are my recommendations. Right? Yeah.
- [61:45]
A
Okay. I love it. Thank you so much. It's such a treat, such a fun conversation. You've been amazing.
- [61:51]
B
Well, thank you.
- [61:52]
A
And how should everybody connect with you?
- [61:54]
B
Yeah. LinkedIn probably like everybody else on this planet. Yeah. I would just say LinkedIn. I, I made a choice many, many, many years ago to pretty much eliminate all other social media in my life. And that's another freeing thing.
- [62:06]
A
Yeah.
- [62:07]
B
I know who all my friends are and we talk on the phone and I see them and so. But LinkedIn is still a platform that, that I think people use today from a marketplace perspective. So connect with me on LinkedIn and
- [62:17]
A
then get the Art of Talent on Amazon.
- [62:19]
B
Amazon available on Amazon. The Art of Talent. I'm actually looking to re release.
- [62:22]
A
Oh, nice.
- [62:23]
B
When that book was originally written, we had a massive talent shortage. There's a. And this is not going to change. There is a natural population shrinkage that is taking place in North America. And so until AI completely takes over, there is still going to be a demand for top talent.
- [62:40]
A
Yeah.
- [62:41]
B
And the book speaks very clearly about how do we attract those folks, how do we develop those folks, how do we ultimately transform organizations to be more optimized and so very much in the vein of all the things that we love and know and talk about. So. Yeah.
- [62:55]
A
Well, thank you, thank you for having so much from you. I so appreciate it. And as always, upsiders, when you invest in your growth every single day, we yield you great returns. Thank you for tuning in and see you next week on the upside. Now surrender.