A Deep Dive Into Pizza, featuring Dan Richer

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A Deep Dive Into Pizza, featuring Dan Richer"

Episode Release Date: April 28, 2025
Hosts: Jessica Batalana and David Tamarkin
Guest: Dan Richer, Author of "The Joy of Pizza" and Owner of Raza Pizzeria, New Jersey

---

1. Personal Reflections on Pizza

The episode opens with hosts Jessica Batalana and David Tamarkin reminiscing about their early pizza experiences. Jessica shares nostalgic memories of enjoying cheese pizza from Pizza Hut in rural Vermont, highlighting the allure of the establishment's ambiance with "faux Tiffany lanterns" and "giant 20-ounce red plastic tumblers" (Jessica Batalana, [01:26]). David humorously contrasts his own experience, admitting he never participated in the "Book It" program—a literacy initiative rewarding kids with pizza for reading—saying, "I would have been living it that way" (David Tamarkin, [02:47]).

2. Evolution of Pizza Trends

Jessica and David discuss how pizza has evolved alongside their personal growth. Jessica notes, "pizza sort of grows with us... we're like dropping $25 on a Neapolitan pie in a moody restaurant" (Jessica Batalana, [04:22]). David emphasizes the increasing quality of home-made pizzas, attributing this to advancements in baking equipment: "Having a high heat pizza oven at home means that it hugely expands the type of pizza you can make" (David Tamarkin, [04:58]).

3. Home Pizza Making: Equipment and Techniques

The conversation shifts to the tools that have revolutionized home pizza baking. David highlights the significance of high-heat pizza ovens, which allow home bakers to craft thin-crust and Neapolitan-style pizzas that were previously challenging to achieve outside professional settings. Jessica adds, "cooking pizza is... it's all about the dough" (Jessica Batalana, [05:04]), underscoring the importance of dough quality in pizza making.

4. Interview with Dan Richer: Expert Insights

a. Oven Challenges and Solutions

Dan Richer delves into the inherent challenges of replicating pizzeria-quality pizza in a standard home oven. He explains, "The home oven is highly inefficient. It doesn't hold heat very well... if you're trying to make Neapolitan style pizza in a home oven, you're gonna run into some challenges" (Dan Richer, [10:08]). To combat this, Dan recommends using pizza steels or stones to increase thermal mass, ensuring consistent heat even when the oven door is opened.

b. Using Pizza Steel and Stones

Dan elaborates on optimizing home ovens for pizza baking: "I've just been using the pizza steel in my oven. It just lives in my oven, stays there, makes it a little bit more efficient" (Dan Richer, [11:24]). He advises a minimum preheat time of 45 minutes to an hour to achieve optimal temperatures, stating, "The best thing to do is turn your oven on when you take your dough out of the refrigerator" (Dan Richer, [13:38]).

c. Strategies for Perfect Baking

Dan shares strategic baking techniques, such as using multiple pizza stones or steels to manage heat distribution during successive pizza batches. "Having two pizza stones or pizza steels on two different racks gives you options" (Dan Richer, [14:49]). He emphasizes the active nature of pizza baking, comparing it to cooking: "Baking pizza is kind of this game of strategy where you know what your end product should be, how you get there" (Dan Richer, [15:26]).

5. Audience Questions: Pizza Troubleshooting

a. Achieving a Crisp Crust

Valerie's Question: Valerie struggles with achieving a crisp crust, resulting in a "soggy center" despite experimenting with various techniques (Valerie, [18:55]).

Host Responses:

• Jessica suggests reducing toppings' moisture by sautéing vegetables before adding them to the pizza: "saute your peppers and onions, saute your mushrooms or your greens... is par cooked" (Jessica Batalana, [20:52]).
• David introduces the term "gum line" to describe the unpleasant soggy layer under the cheese and toppings, advising the use of pizza steels or stones for better heat transfer: "the basement sleepovers where we scarf down slices of takeout pizza" (David Tamarkin, [21:30]).

b. Handling Pizza Peel and Oven Transfer

Unnamed Caller's Question: The caller struggles with transferring pizza from the peel to the oven without it crumpling or sticking (Unnamed Caller, [24:03]).

Host Solutions:

• Jessica recommends using semolina or cornmeal on the peel and transferring the pizza promptly to prevent sticking: "If you discover it's sticking before you get in the oven, like just go calzone" (Jessica Batalana, [26:28]).
• David shares his fail-safe method of using parchment paper on the peel to ensure smooth transfer: "I put my pizza on parchment... there's no sticking" (David Tamarkin, [26:47]).

c. Reheating Pizza

Last Question: Listeners inquire about the best methods to reheat leftover pizza.

Hosts' Advice:

• Jessica advocates against microwaving, favoring reheating in a frying pan with the cheese side down for optimal texture: "I just do it at moderate heat... flip it over for just a minute" (Jessica Batalana, [28:05]).
• David humorously admits skepticism but shows enthusiasm to try Jessica's method: "I'm excited to try it" (David Tamarkin, [28:38]).

6. Controversial Takes and Personal Baking Plans

Towards the episode's end, David reveals a bold opinion: "pizza does not need cheese... I think pizza is better without cheese" (David Tamarkin, [30:00]). Jessica counters by expressing her preference for white pizzas over red, highlighting differing culinary tastes between the hosts: "If I see a white option that's interesting, I will always get that over the red option" (Jessica Batalana, [31:27]).

Both hosts share their upcoming baking projects:

• David plans to bake an oversized version of a Hostess cupcake using the "hot milk method," reminiscing about his childhood indulgence in Hostess treats (David Tamarkin, [32:16]).
• Jessica is excited to make peanut butter brownies, a recipe that quickly became a family favorite, prompting her to commit to larger batches (Jessica Batalana, [33:27]).

7. Conclusion

Jessica and David wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with their baking community and explore more recipes on the King Arthur Baking website. They emphasize the importance of following recipes to achieve baking success: "Please just follow the recipe" (David Tamarkin, [34:40]).

---

Notable Quotes:

• David Tamarkin: "Having a high heat pizza oven at home means that it hugely expands the type of pizza you can make." ([04:58])
• Jessica Batalana: "Pizza sort of grows with us... we're like dropping $25 on a Neapolitan pie in a moody restaurant." ([04:22])
• Dan Richer: "Baking pizza is kind of this game of strategy where you know what your end product should be, how you get there." ([15:26])

---

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of pizza—from nostalgic personal stories and evolving trends to expert advice on perfecting home-made pies. With guest insights from Dan Richer and practical solutions to common pizza-making challenges, listeners gain valuable knowledge to enhance their baking endeavors.

Transcript

[David Tamarkin]

Every existential thought you have, you get a punch card. Oh my God.

[Jessica Batalana]

You would have been living it that way.

[David Tamarkin]

Six inch pizzas. Breakfast, lunch and dinner from King Arthur Baking Company. This is things bakers know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

[Jessica Batalana]

And I'm Jessica Batalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking. Today we are talking about a topic that is very near and dear to our hearts. Pizza. You know, you and I have been talking a lot about pizza in recent weeks.

[David Tamarkin]

I feel like you and I have been talking about pizza nonstop for the last year. Cause we have actually.

[Jessica Batalana]

And you know, all of this conversation about pizza is in service of a project that we've been working on, which is a new pizza cookbook which will be coming out spring of 2026. But all this conversation about pizza has definitely sent me down a sort of nostalgic road. And you know, one of the first pizzas that I really remember e was cheese pizza from Pizza Hut. And I grew up in rural Vermont. And going to Pizza Hut, it required a trip across state lines because the only Pizza Hut was across the river in New Hampshire. And it was a big deal. Like it felt sort of fancy there. You know, they had the faux Tiffany lanterns, the dark red leather banquettes, and those giant 20 ounce red plastic tumblers. I mean, we didn't dress up for it, but we could have like, it could have that significant.

[David Tamarkin]

Totally. They were sort of dark and like dark. Very moody.

[Jessica Batalana]

The reason that we went is because my brother and I, and later my sister, who's five years younger than me, participated in the book it program. Do you know Book it? Yeah. Is that ringing any bells?

[David Tamarkin]

It's bringing up trauma. Yeah.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, if you're not familiar with bookit, this was a literacy program. It started about 40 years ago. And you would get a punch card and for every book you'd read, you'd get a punch on your punch card. And once your punch card was filled, you could turn it in for free. 6 inch personal pan pizza.

[David Tamarkin]

It's a good reward.

[Jessica Batalana]

And I mean for a nerd like me who spent most of her time in the library. I loved to read. I had few friends. I loved pizza. I mean, it was basically the book. It was designed for rural nerds like me. And I filled out those punch cards like nobody's business.

[David Tamarkin]

Okay, but did you ever lie though? Like, did you really read all the books?

[Jessica Batalana]

I read all the books. Did you not read the books?

[David Tamarkin]

Well, I mean, I. Yeah, I didn't read any books and I And I, but I didn't lie either. Like, I didn't, I never do book it. There was no point. I mean, it would be like, you know, if you get a punch for every time you have existential thoughts as a five year old, I would have killed it. Every, every existential thought you have, you get a punch card.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh my God, you would have been living it.

[David Tamarkin]

Die 6 inch pizzas, breakfast, lunch and dinner. No, but I'm happy for you though. I love that you have these good memories of childhood.

[Jessica Batalana]

I do, I do. And I remember the pizza also just so well. It was, you know, the sauce is really sweet. There was a lot of cheese, generously applied cheese. I'd have that tumbler of root beer. Like life was good.

[David Tamarkin]

It sounds like an ideal meal, honestly.

[Jessica Batalana]

And you know, whether or not it's a Pizza Hut memory, I think like a lot of our listeners can probably relate those early like starry eyed pizza memories, whether it was at the brightly lit pizza parlor in the suburbs, you know, the ones that always sponsor like the little league teams, or for kids that grew up in the city, like a slice at an iconic New York City slice shop, which I didn't have until I was in college, you know, but is where I imagine New York toddlers take like their first bite of solid food is at these slice shops, right?

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah. Or like anywhere. I mean, you just don't go to a slice shop at 3pm like it's packed with kids getting their after school slice, which of course I fully support totally.

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, or like the basement sleepovers where we scarf down slices of takeout pizza. Like I think that pizza is one of, it's one of our first foods and thus we have a lot of strong associations with it. And pizz pizza, I feel like it sort of grows with us. You start off with these after school slices or the sleepover pizzas or the bookit pizzas. But before you know it, we're like dropping $25 on a Neapolitan pie in a moody restaurant, drinking natural wine out of a mason jar. And even when it's bad, you know, it's still kind of good. But lately I think it's gotten very, very good.

[David Tamarkin]

And part of the reason home pizza making has gotten so good is because people have leveled up their equipment, which is to say a lot of people bought pizza ovens. There are so many options out for pizza ovens, high heat pizza ovens that really change the game for making pizza at home. And having a high heat pizza oven at home means that it hugely expands the type of pizza you can make. You can still do pan pizzas, which I've always considered to be the home friendliest pizza. And, you know, you can still do those in a high heat oven, but you can also do super thin crust pizzas and get them truly crisp. And you can even do Neapolitan style pizza, which historically has been almost impossible to achieve at home.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, you know, I have thoughts about this. I mean, Neapolitan pizza's over, David. It's over.

[David Tamarkin]

That's it. Goodbye, Italy.

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, of course I'm exaggerating. Neapolitan pizza is one of the greatest pizza styles in the world, and it's not going away. But for a long time, home bakers were solely trying to crack the code on making that style of pizza at home. And now I think they're broadening their scope to include other styles they're excited about, including thin crust pizzas. You know, Americans love crispy things, so it's not surprising to me exactly that we've come back around to crispy pizza.

[David Tamarkin]

Totally. So the American palate just wants crispier and crispier things. And I think that really speaks to where we are right now with homemaking, with making pizza at home in American kitchens. You know, you were talking about your pizza memories of the 80s. And when I think about pizza in the 90s, I think the innovation there was really in California. We thought about California pizza and all that. It was all about what was going on top of the pizza. You know, the idea that, like, you could put creme fraiche and smoked salmon on a pizza was very new and very exciting. Todd.

[Jessica Batalana]

I remember the first time I had chicken on top of a pizza.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, barbecue chicken.

[Jessica Batalana]

It was crazy.

[David Tamarkin]

It was wild. Those were wild days with toppings. But now we're sort of past that. I think nobody blinks an eye. You put anything on a pizza, it's all good. I think we're now back to a place where it's all about the dough. Pizza is as much, if not more so about the dough because it's just bread. And what distinguishes great pizza, the crust and how it's baked, the mouthfeel of it, how oily is it, how crispy is it, how soft is it? But that's also where the challenge is, because it can be hard to nail those different types of crust at home.

[Jessica Batalana]

It's sort of interesting to me to think about during the pandemic, we saw this huge bread baking renaissance. People were making sourdough at home. And I think it was like around that same time, you know, when people were stuck at home, that everyone got these pizza ovens, right? Like they weren't going so they could justify spending the money on a home pizza oven. Cause they weren't going out as much. And then I. So I think those two things sort of like rose at the same time. It was like people were making bread, they were thinking about how dough is made, then they got these pizza ovens. And now you sort of see this overlay of like, okay, what is pizza? It's great bread with stuff on top, right?

[David Tamarkin]

You see that. You see the connection of how treating your dough, how nurturing a dough leads to great nurturing.

[Jessica Batalana]

That's nice.

[David Tamarkin]

Isn't that sweet? See, I can be a parent too.

[Jessica Batalana]

I would love to hear from you, like what you think is happening pizza wise right now or if you're just, you know, I mean, maybe just totally agree with me and there's nothing more to discuss.

[David Tamarkin]

That's it. Show's over. I agree with you that the Neapolitan trend is over. And what I think is coming and already here in a lot of places is the rise of the Midwestern style pizza. We're talking about Midwestern tavern style pizza. So as a Midwesterner, Great Lakes tavern style pizza has always been a thing and now the rest of the country is getting hip to it. But it's not just the Great Lakes tavern style pizza that I think is coming up. It's also the super thin, crispy Roman style pizza that's coming up. And they're not exactly the same, but they're in the same family because they're super thin. You can eat an entire pizza and still go for more. I know, I've done it. And there's something really, just really great about this style of pizza. There's something so light about it. It's almost like eating. It's not like eating a potato chip, but it's not like eating a potato chip because it's just that thin and crispy and it doesn't bog you down the same way. And it's just a change of pace for pizza. It aligns with. Take Jessica, because I think what we're both saying is that the drippy tip of pizza, like the soupy pizzas are out and pizzas with no dip tips are in.

[Jessica Batalana]

No dip tips. I love that. So that just is like when you're holding up a slice, about to cram it in your mouth, rather than the tip of the slice dripping down and staining your shirt. Happened to me many times. You know, it stays stiff and solid. So when you bite into it, you're just like, just crunching in.

[David Tamarkin]

When you can hold a slice of pizza and it's as stiff as cardboard, you know, or maybe not quite that stiff, I mean, that'd be great, but like. But it generally, it doesn't. There's no slope, there's no downward slope. The cheese isn't dripping off. Then you have a no dip tip slice of pizza, which really just means you have a crisp pizza pizza that when you bite into it, it's gonna have a little bit of crunch.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. And I think. Well, I'm always excited to be talking about pizza, but today I'm also excited because we have an actual expert to talk to, Dan Richer from Raza Pizzeria in New Jersey. And Dan is also a proponent of the no dip tip, which is a.

[David Tamarkin]

Big deal because Dan is really considered one of the leading pizza voices in the country. So if he's saying that no dip tip is in, it's in.

[Jessica Batalana]

It's in. And there is no one more detail oriented about making pizza at home than Dan. He wrote the New York Times bestseller the Joy of Pizza. And that book delves so deeply into every aspect. I mean, there are graphs, there are charts, like he's taught. There's a lot.

[David Tamarkin]

There's homework in this book. It feels like I'm in school again.

[Jessica Batalana]

Dan, thank you so much for joining us.

[Dan Richer]

Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

[Jessica Batalana]

I think one of the pain points for a lot of people baking at home is figuring out how to make their home oven behave the way a pizza oven behaves. And I'd love to hear what you think is the best kind of home oven setup.

[Dan Richer]

So the oven has always been a challenge. It's kind of a round peg, square hole type thing. The home oven is highly inefficient. It doesn't hold heat very well, which makes it safer for your kitchen. Home ovens don't bake hotter than 550 degrees if you're lucky. And pizza ovens hover anywhere between 5, 600 degrees for New York style pizza, much higher for Neapolitan style pizza. So if you're trying to make Neapolitan style pizza in a home oven, you're gonna run into some challenges because there's just not the temperatures that you would require.

[Jessica Batalana]

Right.

[Dan Richer]

But the home oven is very good at staying in that 450, 475, 500 degree range. So making a pan pizza is really the best use for your home oven without having to massively compromise.

[Jessica Batalana]

You know, you talk about this in, like, what are you doing to your oven? Specifically, like, you mentioned a sort of double threat of fire brick, baking steel, baking stone. Will you describe that sort of, like, oven hack for us?

[Dan Richer]

Yeah. So I love that. Lately, I've just been using the pizza steel in my oven. It just lives in my oven, stays there, makes it a little bit more efficient. If you want to add more thermal mass or a material to heat up and stay hot, fire bricks are great. You can line one of your oven racks with fire bricks and then put a pizza steel on top of it. Or not. Home ovens are not very well insulated, so every time you open the door, you're losing much of the heat. And pizza cooks from the top down, but also from the bottom up. To get a crispy crust, you need thermal mass. You need something that can get hot and stay hot even after you open the oven door.

[Jessica Batalana]

So, like, a sheet pan's not gonna cut the mustard here.

[Dan Richer]

Not even remotely.

[Jessica Batalana]

Let's just make it happen. Not even close.

[Dan Richer]

I've just had so many bad experiences doing that, and it never works. There's not enough thermal mass in a cookie sheet that is very thin. And cookie sheets, listen, they make great cookies, right? They don't require the level of heat that a pizza does. A pizza steel or a pizza stone should be enough to bake one pizza. If you're trying to bake successive rounds of pizza, which is what we do at my house, I have a wife and two kids, and we each take turns making a pizza. So my son will make a pizza, we bake it, we all eat it together. Takes about 15 minutes for us to scarf down. Want a pizza?

[Jessica Batalana]

15 minutes. You guys are very civilized. Your children are much better behaved than mine. I'm like, 35 seconds. To eat it?

[Dan Richer]

No, to eat it and make the next one. The point is, we want to give the oven time to regenerate its heat in the baking steel or stone.

[Jessica Batalana]

This is key. I think this is key.

[Dan Richer]

It is very important. People are chronically under preheating their oven.

[Jessica Batalana]

So when you first preheat your oven with the steel in it, how long do you preheat it for?

[Dan Richer]

Minimum of 45 minutes.

[Jessica Batalana]

Okay.

[Dan Richer]

The best thing to do is turn your oven on when you take your dough out of the refrigerator.

[Jessica Batalana]

Okay.

[Dan Richer]

So I'm turning the oven on well in advance. I use the broiler in a couple different ways. Sometimes I'll use it in between bakes to reheat the pizza stone. So we take a pizza out. I know I need to close the oven and get that stone hot again. I'll flip on the broiler and that gives that pizza stone a blast of heat.

[Jessica Batalana]

Meanwhile, you guys change into their tuxedos. They're sitting down for their 30 minute one pizza.

[Dan Richer]

Let's say you're the bottom of your pizza or the the undercarriage has baked at a faster rate than the cheese has melted, Throw it under the broiler, finish up the top. If you can afford to have two pizza stones or two pizza steels, that's always best. It increases the amount of thermal mass that you have and it increases your options.

[David Tamarkin]

Right?

[Dan Richer]

Baking pizza is kind of this game of strategy where you know what your end product should be, how you get there, who cares how you get there? So having two pizza stones or pizza seals on two different racks gives you options. So you can start it on the top stone and if you notice that the cheese is melting faster than the undercarriage is baking, move it to the other pizza steel that still is fully preheated from your long hour long preheat.

[Jessica Batalana]

That's smart.

[Dan Richer]

Every time you attempt to make pizza, you have the opportunity to learn something about the flour, about your oven, about kneading, about anything. So you have to bake with your eyes wide open and constantly be thinking about it. And yeah, it gets addictive because like for me, when I attempt something, I want to do great. I want to succeed at what, whatever I am interested in. And with pizza, the more attempts you make, the better you get at it.

[Jessica Batalana]

This episode is brought to you by the tools and ingredients you need to make your best pies, all of which are available on our website. We have double zero pizza flour, which is a huge favorite and makes the most tender pizza dough. We have pizza wheels, pizza peels, even pizza steals. And for those of you who love pan pizzas, we have Detroit style pizza pans.

[David Tamarkin]

I love those pans. Those pans are great. And actually I love all those tools. In the course of writing the pizza book that we've been working on, we've used every single one of those things and they are all amazing.

[Jessica Batalana]

Find all of this and [e-mail] Ever.

[Gemma Stafford]

Wonder what's hot in the baking world right now? It's not even that complicated. You get store bought croissants, cut them open, shove in some store bought cookie dough, and that's it. Hi everyone, I'm Gemma Stafford, professional chef, cookbook author and Creator of Bigger Bolder Baking. Welcome to need to Know, your go to podcast for everything baking entertainment from the latest trends.

[Dan Richer]

This is the viral scrambled pancake trend.

[Gemma Stafford]

What to the tips and tricks you crave. We discovered that if you take apple peels, toss them in a little cinnamon and sugar and bake them for about an hour in the oven, you get a really lovely treat. Plus exclusive interviews with baking pros.

[Jessica Batalana]

Hey, it's Liz from the Sugar Geek Show.

[David Tamarkin]

Thanks for having me, Gemma.

[Gemma Stafford]

We've even got the Bold Baking Hotline to answer all of your baking queries and questions.

[Dan Richer]

Is a Dutch oven really necessary for baking bread?

[Jessica Batalana]

And what difference does it make?

[Gemma Stafford]

Yes, I think we probably would agree on that. Do we, Omi? Oh, good. So join us for your new weekly baking ritual. It's everything you need. That's K n e a d to know.

[David Tamarkin]

If you've ever struggled to stretch your crust or get a good bake on it or get it puffy enough. You know, there are a lot of opinions and resources to access for advice. I mean, Reddit alone. Jessica, I don't know if you've been. Yeah, you said it.

[Jessica Batalana]

It's a jungle out there.

[David Tamarkin]

So we're going to cut through the noise. It's time for Ask the Bakers. Maybe you have a baking question that's stumping you. If so, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.

[Jessica Batalana]

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's hotline via phone, email or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com bakers-hotline that's kingarthurbaking.com bakerS-hotline or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253, as in bake.

[David Tamarkin]

Now let's head into today's pizza questions. Let's do it.

[Valerie]

I want to know how to get a crisp crust on a pizza. I've tried everything from solid pizza pans to pizza pans with holes. Thinner crust, bottom rack, top rack, higher heats, everything. And more times than not, I end up with a soggy crust in the middle. I'd sure like some suggestions on how to fix that. Thank you.

[Jessica Batalana]

Valerie's been on a journey. She's top rack, bottom rack, high heat.

[David Tamarkin]

Low heat, you know, and you got it. You got to experiment with, especially with pizza, you know, you gotta Experiment.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yep. You gotta. I mean, it takes a little bit of effort, I think, to get to know your oven. But it sounds like that is maybe not the main issue. And, you know, one of the things that. That took me a very long time to learn, maybe, cause I was raised on Pizza Hut pizzas, is like, more toppings is not necessarily better when it comes to pizza. And I think a common pitf that. Well, one of two things, folks really load up their pizza with sauce, which is wet, and toppings, which, you know, both weigh down and add moisture. There's also the problem of, like, what you've done or not done to your toppings before you put them on your pizza. Like, if you're putting raw mushrooms, raw spinach, raw peppers. You see the theme here. Raw things, you know, that will then release moisture as they cook. Like that moisture has nowhere to go. It's not baking for long enough that the moisture evaporates. And so that moisture from the vegetables just sinks in with the moisture from the sauce, and it sogs out your crust, particularly in the middle. So I would say, you know, if you're not already doing this to do, to just, you know, sort of apply sauce and toppings more judiciously than you think, and to give, you know, vegetables a little bit of a treatment before you put them on there. So saute your peppers and onions, saute your mushrooms or your greens so that everything that's going on has released some moisture already is par cooked. And I think that would help the soggy center situation.

[David Tamarkin]

I've been waiting for you to give the official term for that soggy center.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh, I didn't want you to.

[David Tamarkin]

It's so awful. I know, I know. I don't want you to either. But now I teach. You have to do it.

[Jessica Batalana]

You taught me it. You taught me this term.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh, it's not pleasant, but it's called. But once I say it, I think it'll get in people's heads and they will know to avoid this when a soggy layer of crust right under your cheese and toppings. It's called a gum line.

[Jessica Batalana]

Gum line.

[David Tamarkin]

A soggy gross. Like, kind of like a. Yeah, a gummy layer. It's really not pleasant, and you really want to do everything you can to avoid it. I think all of Jessica's. All of her suggestions are apt. But of course, there's also the other side of the pizza that could be the problem. The underside of it. I mean, what you suggested covers the top of the pizza, but the underside is just as important and this is where a baking steel or baking stone is an absolute game changer when it comes to making pizza. It gives you that heat on the bottom that transfers immediately to the bottom of your crust and gets it crispy and cooks it through. Without it, you have problems.

[Jessica Batalana]

I know we talked about baking stones and steels with Dan earlier, but for people who don't know, David, can you explain what they are and how to use them?

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah. So a baking steel and a baking stone is just a slab of material, and a baking steel is made out of steel. A baking stone is usually clay. Both are great. I prefer steel, personally. It gets a little hotter, but either is great. And what you do is you put this material in your oven and you preheat your oven. Our rule of thumb when making pizza is that you preheat 45 minutes to an hour. And in that time, by the way, you could also prep some of the ingredients. Like Jessica was saying, you could put some vegetables in there to roast them, and, you know, get them all softened, charred, and release some of that water. But you heat up your pizza stone for 45 minutes to an hour, get it ripping hot. If you have an infrared thermometer, it's a great place to use it. You want to look for a pizza stone that's about 500 degrees, and then you slide your pizza on top of it. You can put the pizza right on top of it. You can have a layer of parchment in between, or you can use one of those pizza pans that I know you love Jessica, and I think that.

[Jessica Batalana]

That bottom heat right away will really help. And then if you find, you know, you get your bottom as brown as you want it to be, and your toppings are still a little pale, you can always just pop it under the broiler for a minute or two. So, you know, you can do, like, dual sort of dual heat sources to achieve that perfect bake.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah. Valerie, you know, she was talking about trying out different positions in her oven. I don't know if she was talking about trying out different positions during the same bake, but that is a very good tactic, you know, what you're saying, to start in the middle of your oven on a pizza stone in steel, and then moving it up, you know, starting at the bottom of your oven where the heat source is getting to crisp, and then moving it up to the broiler so you get the top heat. You really. This is why our colleague Martin Phillip always says baking pizza is really like cooking, because you really have. It's very active. You have to be. Same way that you'd tend to a skillet of onions when you're sauteing them. You gotta tend to your pizza and move it around to get the right heat at the right time.

[Jessica Batalana]

Great. Well, I hope that helps, Valerie. Good luck to you.

[Unnamed Caller]

Hi, King Arthur. So whenever I'm trying to load my pizza into the oven, it either sticks to my pizza peel or it crumples into a blob and kind of becomes a huge mess. I was hoping if you could give me any advice on how to get my pizza into the oven intact. Thank you.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh, gosh.

[David Tamarkin]

This is classic.

[Jessica Batalana]

This is. I mean, I was waiting for somebody to ask this question because this is like the. It's the curse of the Amoeba Pizza. You know, it's. Everything's well and good. You have your nice, round pizza on your pizza peel. Then you go to put it in the oven, slide it off the peel, it sticks, it rolls upon itself, and you have, like, a total catastrophe. This has happened to me more times than I would like to admit.

[David Tamarkin]

Curse of the Amoeba Pizza. That is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for that movie to come out.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. Right? I mean, I think this is one of the problems that most beginning home pizza bakers struggle with.

[David Tamarkin]

Happens all the time. Yeah, it happens to the best of us. Honestly.

[Jessica Batalana]

This is how the calzone was born. To be honest, the calzone was an accident. I'm sure of it.

[David Tamarkin]

It was a mistake. Yeah. We do have some tips, though. What do you do?

[Jessica Batalana]

Okay, so I use semolina, cornmeal on my pizza peel. And then I, you know, I shape my dough most of the way on a floured surface. And when it's most of the way to the size that I want it to be, then I transfer it over to the peel. But then the clock is ticking. Like, I'll finish stretching it just to get it the size that I want it to be. But then it's like, you gotta go, like, then you need to top it, and you need to get in the oven. And then this just recently happened with my brother. He and I were making pizzas together, and he got immediately, like, cracking on forming the second one. So we had one in the oven, and then he started to build the second one on the pizza peel. But the one in the oven, you know, it took 10 minutes. And meanwhile, that dough is sitting on the peel, getting stickier and stickier.

[David Tamarkin]

It's like fusing to the peel as it sits.

[Jessica Batalana]

And, you know, I hear people say, like, oh, just Check if it's sticking and you can lift up the edge and throw some more semolina or cornmeal under it. Well, good luck to you. Like doing that with a top pizza I think is really challenging. But you know, when inevitably it happens that your pizza rolls in on itself, I mean, if you discover it's sticking before you get in the oven, like just go calzone, just fold over that dough on itself. Yeah, you can save it because calzones are delicious.

[David Tamarkin]

You know, the truth is, I never have this problem because I always use the fail safe option. Yeah, yeah, I'm just that good. No, I'm not going to call it a cheat. It's just I always take the other option, which is instead of dusting my peel with semolina, I just, I put my pizza on parchment.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh, yes.

[David Tamarkin]

So after I, you know, have my pizza stretched out and shaped, I transfer it to, I put a piece of parchment on my peel and I put my pizza on that top it and then I cut around, I cut the parchment that's exposed off. Because parchment paper could burn in a 500 degree oven. And then you really don't have any problem. There's no sticking there because parchment's gonna slide right off and, and you know, it's not what the pros do. It's not a pro move. But I'm not a pro. I'm just a lowly home baker and I like assurance of parchment paper.

[Jessica Batalana]

Solid advice. I think we have one more question. Let's hear it.

[David Tamarkin]

What's the best way to reheat old pizza? I've heard methods where you use a frying pan or the oven or a toaster oven. What's the best way?

[Jessica Batalana]

I'm about to blow your mind. Okay, so I my preferred. Well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with eating pizza cold out of the fridge.

[David Tamarkin]

That's what I was thinking. I was like, what's the problem here?

[Jessica Batalana]

One of the universe's greatest.

[David Tamarkin]

Create more problems for us. I mean, there's enough problems in the world.

[Jessica Batalana]

There's enough to do. There are enough problems. But if you want hot leftover pizza, first of all, never in the microwave. Tragedy. I reheat mine. My slices in a frying pan. Wait for it.

[David Tamarkin]

Okay.

[Jessica Batalana]

Cheese side down.

[David Tamarkin]

You're lying. That's not possible. No, it's actually cheese side down in the frying pan.

[Jessica Batalana]

Face down in the frying pan.

[David Tamarkin]

What you're making is fondue.

[Jessica Batalana]

Cause if you do just the bottom, you know, crust side down, what happens is like the bottom Gets hot and crispy, but the top, like, the cheese is still, like, leathery. So I started cheese side down.

[David Tamarkin]

I don't believe this.

[Jessica Batalana]

How does this work?

[David Tamarkin]

You put it cheese side down, and all the cheese melts on the pants.

[Jessica Batalana]

Nonstick skillet.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh, my God.

[Jessica Batalana]

Cheese side down. Just do it at moderate heat. And then once the cheese gets warm, I just will, like, flip it over for just a minute, and then the bottom sort of browns in the cheese grease. Am I a genius or am I a genius?

[David Tamarkin]

Oh, my gosh, Julie. You're rendering the cheese and it's perfect. Like, you're refrying your pizza in cheese grease. That honestly sounds really delicious.

[Jessica Batalana]

It's inspired.

[David Tamarkin]

I don't believe at all that it will work, but I'm excited to try it.

[Jessica Batalana]

I will try it immediately and tell me what happens. But I also think. Cause you know the other pitfall of, like, a lot of the other methods, like, if you just put it in the oven, like, it becomes like a cracker. Like, it dries out too much. But God, I do love cold pizza.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, that's really the answer. Just eat it cold. We hope we helped you. If you have a question, don't Forget, go to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message, and Jessica and I will use it to pontificate and have long conversations that have nothing to do with your question. And eventually we will get around to answering your question every episode. We'd like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated ideas are in her head.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, I'm actually. You know what? This week I'm gonna stop you there because this week, I mean, of course I have no shortage of opinions, but I think I know that you have a full throated and wildly surprised you're.

[David Tamarkin]

Gonna turn this around on me.

[Jessica Batalana]

Okay, I am. Yep, I am.

[David Tamarkin]

I'm gonna get canceled for this. But yeah, it's true. You know what? No, I'm gonna be proud. I'm gonna be loud and proud about this. I do have a controversial opinion about pizza that I have tried to. That has come up again and again as Jessica and our colleagues and I have been writing this pizza book. And my take is that pizza does not need cheese. And in fact, I think pizza is better without cheese. I don't need a ton of cheese on my pizza. Like, I know we started this episode talking about, like, cheese pizzas and how great they are. And fine, they are great, but like, to me, that's over. That was my childhood. I'm an adult now.

[Jessica Batalana]

And you want a cheeseless pizza.

[David Tamarkin]

I just want a cheeseless pizza.

[Jessica Batalana]

I want, like.

[David Tamarkin]

I just love. I love. I love a Rosa pizza. Is that how you say Rosa?

[Jessica Batalana]

Rosa.

[David Tamarkin]

Rosa. Rosa. I have no idea how you say it, but, you know, like, just. It's a pizza with a little red sauce, some anchovies. You know, I put some greens on there. But I just think that when you have a pizza that's got, like, that sort of reduced tomato pasty sauce on it, it's just. It's lovely. And it's not. It's traditional. It's just a long tradition of this. We think of pizza now as kneading cheese, but it doesn't. There, I said it.

[Jessica Batalana]

This is perhaps the original pizza.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, I'm going back. Yeah, I just have those, like, 1600 vibes, you know, that's who I am.

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, I like a red pizza. I think you're wrong. I like cheese on my pizza. In fact, if I may counter yours, I actually prefer white pizzas to red pizzas.

[David Tamarkin]

Okay, see, now, see, now, see, it really is a just opinion. See, you had one. You pretended like you didn't have one. You said you were gonna give it to me, but now here it is.

[Jessica Batalana]

I just wanted to expose you.

[David Tamarkin]

You want white pizza more than, like, that's your top pizza is a white pizza.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, I mean, if I'm. Yeah. If I look at a pizza menu at a pizza restaurant and I see, you know, a white option that's interesting, I will always get that over the red option.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh, God. I don't know if you and I can eat pizza together.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, maybe we can, because we're like, you know, yin and yang.

[David Tamarkin]

I think we'll end up in a place where it's like, pizza's good no matter what. It's like what you said at the beginning of the show, like, there is no bad pizza.

[Jessica Batalana]

There's no bad pizza. We are out of time. But before we go, I have one question for you, David, which is, what are you baking this week?

[David Tamarkin]

This week, I am baking a oversized version of a Hostess cupcake, which is a recipe that our test kitchen came out with. I've been thinking about it ever since. It's a chocolate cake that uses a hot milk method. Which is. Which is exactly what it sounds like. You pour hot milk into the batter when you're making it. I tried this cake in our test kitchen when they were developing it, and it is so good. And we've talked a lot today about the nostalgia and this is something that's very nostalgic for me. Instead of reading books and getting those book it, you know, points, I was eating Hostess cupcakes, man.

[Jessica Batalana]

I. I don't know. I don't know if I've ever had a Hostess cupcake.

[David Tamarkin]

Wow.

[Jessica Batalana]

But I have had this cake and I think that hot milk method is very interesting because, you know, you're combining your sugar and eg and then you're heating up your milk and your fat and adding that and it results in a cake with like just a very fine texture. Like it's really tender.

[David Tamarkin]

It's really plush.

[Jessica Batalana]

I feel very plush in the way that like a, you know, a box cake is.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, exactly. What are you making this week?

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, I guess we both have sweets on the brain. And I'm going to make the peanut butter brownies.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh.

[Jessica Batalana]

That are on our site. You know, I did a beta test. So we have a recipe for small batch brownies which makes a loaf pan of brownies.

[David Tamarkin]

You made those brownies. They were not even published when you made those brownies. You were so excited about that.

[Jessica Batalana]

I was so excited about them and I made them. But you know what? Frankly, we're not really a small batch family because we ate that batch of brownies so fast. And I did. I took the small batch brownie recipe and I took a scaled down version of the peanut butter swirl from the peanut butter brownies, which makes a 9 by 13. And I. So I made a small batch peanut butter brownie and that was good. But like I said, we ate it immediately. And so I now am ready to commit to the full 9 by 13. I can put some of them in the freezer for later, but they are so delicious. So, you know, I don't mind having a big batch of those kicking around.

[David Tamarkin]

Peanut butter is close to pizza for me as a perfect food.

[Jessica Batalana]

Ugh. Agreed on that. We can agree.

[David Tamarkin]

Finally.

[Jessica Batalana]

Finally something we can agree on. Well, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.

[David Tamarkin]

Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jessica Batalana]

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

[David Tamarkin]

We'll see you back here next week. In the meantime, people, don't forget, please just follow the recipe. Follow the recipe.

[Jessica Batalana]

Follow the recipe.

[David Tamarkin]

Come on. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin and me, Jessica Batallana. Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chennai is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

[Jessica Batalana]

You'll find some of our favorite pizza recipes as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week in the show Notes. This episode featured Dan Richer, author of New York Times bestseller the Joy of Pizza. He's also the owner of Raza in New Jersey, and you can learn more more about his book by going to thejoyofpizzabook.com and it's also linked in the Show Notes.

[David Tamarkin]

Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur baking company podcast.