Everyone Loves Focaccia, featuring Samin Nosrat

Summary

Podcast Summary: Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast

Episode Title: Everyone Loves Focaccia, featuring Samin Nosrat
Date: March 30, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode explores the enduring love for focaccia, tracing its evolution from humble Italian flatbread to a canvas of baking creativity. Hosts Jessica Battilana and David Tamarkin discuss focaccia's history, its meteoric rise as a home-baking trend, and practical tips for success. Special guest Samin Nosrat joins to share insights from her influential Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat series and her experiences developing accessible focaccia for all bakers. Listener questions and “Jess Opinions” bring out debates on maximalism, storage, and the boundaries of focaccia innovation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Focaccia: From Italian Restaurants to Viral Stardom

• Old-School Focaccia:
  • 1990s American focaccia: Thin, tight-crumb bread, often with dried rosemary; an Italian bread-basket staple.
  • "[It] was kind of like a low-profile, flat bread, maybe a half an inch tall, very tight crumb. It often had...needles of dried rosemary on top..." — Jessica [01:48]
• Historical Roots:
  • Focaccia predates classic Italian versions, with origins potentially reaching the Fertile Crescent. "[Research] has revealed that this bread...likely dates back to...the Fertile Crescent." — Jessica [02:36]
• Modern Transformation:
  • Today’s focaccia is taller, ultra-hydrated, airy, and bubbly—"focaccia 2.0."
  • "[Now] it's become a real canvas...a great entry bread for people new to bread baking, which is one reason why it has become so trendy." — David [01:21]
  • Social media, bakeries like Lodge Bread (LA), and home bakers have driven innovation.

Notable Quote:

"Focaccia is a canvas for creativity. And I think it's a great entry bread for people who are new to bread baking—one reason why it has become so trendy." — David [01:21]

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2. The Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat Effect (feat. Samin Nosrat)

• The “Brine Method” Breakout:
  • Samin Nosrat’s Netflix episode showcased Ligurian focaccia made with a salt brine poured over the dough before baking—"The Focaccia That Launched 1000 Ships" [08:50].
  • "It was the power of visual, of...soft light, like beautiful photography. And there was something really cool about that focaccia that really captivated the world...the brine." — Jessica [12:31]
• Why the Brine?
  • The salt brine soaks into the crust, making salt flavor uniform and creating the signature open crumb and tender texture.
  • "He made this very salty brine that he poured on top, which kind of blew my mind...the salt got completely absorbed...so it was in every bite." — Samin [13:02]
• Recipe Accessibility:
  • Samin developed her TV recipe to be approachable—no mixer, all-purpose flour, no sourdough starter required, with help from bakers Josie Baker and Lori Ellen Pellicano [17:29].
  • Focused on making "focaccia for everyone, people who've never baked anything." — Samin [17:56]
• Evolution Post-Pandemic:
  • Samin’s “Good Things” book focaccia now uses bread flour and stretch-and-folds for loft, reflecting her own growth as a baker.

Notable Quote:

"There's not the pressure of beautiful proofing and shaping. There's not the pressure of a sourdough starter. It's a very low-pressure bread." — Samin Nosrat [18:04]

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3. Techniques, Trends, and the Maximalist Debate

Hydration, Flour, and Structure:

• Hydration Matters:
  • For an open crumb, use higher-hydration doughs (80%+), aided by bread flour and stretch-and-folds, not heavy kneading [20:19, 29:01].
• Proofing:
  • Let focaccia proof fully in the pan for a bubbly interior. Finish with olive oil and dimple by hand for classic texture.
  • "When that focaccia is in the pan, you really want to wait...it should be almost like a marshmallow." — Jessica [31:34]

Modern Maximalism:

• Creative Toppings:
  • From simple herbs, olives, and tomatoes to extravagant toppings like crème fraîche & mushrooms, and the "will it focaccia?" Instagram trend by Lacey Osterman (e.g., jelly donut, buffalo chicken) [11:11].
• Sweet Focaccia Debate:
  • Jessica leans traditional, preferring savory or restrained toppings; David enjoys maximalist approaches, highlighting their own cinnamon roll focaccia recipe.
  • "Just because you can put anything into a bread dough does not mean that you should." — Jessica [37:32]
  • "A lot of them looked really delicious to me...the cinnamon roll focaccia is freakishly delicious." — David [38:05]

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4. Listener Q&A: Practical Focaccia Wisdom

A. Keeping Herbs Vibrant (Saint Vito Focaccia, Nashville) [24:14]

• Challenge: How to keep herbs on top bright, not burnt?
• Solution: Dehydrate a custom blend of herbs at low temp and sprinkle after baking, or make a fresh herb oil (e.g., basil oil added post-bake).
• "[At Saint Vito] they dehydrate the herbs...and they sprinkle it on the focaccia after it's baked." — David [25:43]

B. Open Crumb Tips [28:19]:

• Use high hydration dough (80%+)
• Fully proof in the pan until bubbly
• "You really have to push the proof...that dough visibly looks very bubbly...almost like a marshmallow." — Jessica [31:34]

C. Storing & Reviving Focaccia [32:43]:

• Scale down recipes, make croutons, or try 'inside-out' sandwiches:
  • Flip focaccia to grill the crumb for best texture in toasted sandwiches.
  • "Inside-out focaccia sandwich is a great thing to do with day-old focaccia." — Jessica [35:35]

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5. Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On focaccia as the perfect entry bread:
  "It's really fun to make focaccia...You just want to get your hands in there and it's easy." — David [08:41]

• On focaccia storage:
  "Just eat more...don't leave that table until that's focaccia tonight." — David [33:02]

• On baking trends:
  "Focaccia specifically—if you're looking for something really bubbly, you gotta wait to see those bubbles." — David [32:03]

• On maximalist trends:
  "Exercise a little restraint. Strawberry Danish is great. Cinnamon rolls, delicious...but they don't all have to be combined into one." — Jessica [37:32]

• On life lessons:
  "Give yourself time to reach your full potential. Don't rush, don't rush, don't rush." — David [32:32]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:13 — Focaccia in '90s America
• 02:36 — Deep historical origins of focaccia
• 03:34 — Modern, high-hydration focaccia
• 08:50 — Focaccia as the "bread that launched 1000 ships" via Salt Fat Acid Heat
• 13:02 — Samin Nosrat on the salt brine revelation
• 17:56 — Philosophy of a focaccia "for everyone"
• 20:19 — The "stretch and fold" technique, bread flour explained
• 25:43 — Saint Vito method for vibrant herb toppings
• 29:01 — Hydration math explained
• 31:34 — Proofing for maximum bubbles
• 35:35 — "Inside-out" focaccia sandwiches
• 36:30 — "Jess Opinions" on sweet focaccia maximalism

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Flow & Tone

The episode is lighthearted and conversational, mixing baking nerdiness with humor and affection for focaccia. Both hosts are passionate and opinionated, with banter over creative (and perhaps excessive) takes on the bread. Samin Nosrat brings an educational and welcoming perspective, focused on demystifying bread baking. Listener questions add practical advice and a sense of community.

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Takeaways

• Modern focaccia is bigger, bolder, and more varied than ever—embrace creativity, but trust the classic methods.
• Technique: Use high hydration, bread flour, stretch-and-folds, and proof thoroughly for best results.
• Brining before baking, as seen in Samin Nosrat’s Netflix series, gives unique texture and flavor.
• When topping with herbs, dry/dehydrate them and add post-bake for maximum color/flavor.
• Day-old focaccia makes top-tier sandwiches and croutons—use the “inside-out” grilling technique!
• Maximalism is fun, but restraint is a virtue (especially for traditionalists).
• Above all, focaccia is accessible, forgiving, and a joy to bake at home.

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Next Episode Preview:
Look forward to more debates, trends, and practical advice from the world of baking, plus further opinions from Jessica and featured expert guests!

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Notable quote to close:

"Give yourself time to reach your full potential. Don't rush, don't rush, don't rush." — David [32:32]

Transcript

[A]

And people really lost their minds about that.

[B]

It was the power of visual, of like, of soft light.

[A]

Beautiful photography from King Arthur Baking Company. This is things bakers know. I'm Jessica Batalana, King Arthur's staff editor.

[C]

And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. And today we're talking about a bread that has captured the imagination of Americans everywhere, actually people worldwide. Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It is focaccia.

[A]

Focaccia, yeah. You know, it's interesting because I don't think regular people, that is to say people that don't work in a baking company aren't thinking a lot about trends. Right. Trends in baking.

[C]

They're not hyper focused on baking trends.

[A]

They're not hyper focus, they're not laser focused on baking trends the way we are, but we think about them a lot. Yeah. And I think one of the things that we noticed was that like focaccia went from a bread that used to be just like a sort of fixture of the bread basket of a certain type of mid priced Italian restaurant of the 90s.

[C]

Yes. This is very specific. Yes.

[A]

To a bread that has really captivated bakers, including us. And you see versions now all over the place.

[C]

Yeah, it's become a real canvas. I would say focaccia in the canvas for creativity. And I think it's a great entry bread for people who are new to bread baking, which is one reason why it has sort of become so trendy, which is really what we're saying. Focaccia is trendy and we're going to be exploring that today. I like what you said about focaccia being in the bread basket at a mid priced restaurant. Tell me a little bit more about that.

[A]

Yeah, well, yes, I will tell you a little bit more about that. And then so when I was growing up, the focaccia that I knew, I mean, the focaccia that we knew really until like I would say maybe like four or five years ago, was kind of like a low profile profile, you know, flat bread, maybe a half an inch tall, very tight crumb. It often had, in my experience, like needles of dried rosemary on top, you know, and at those restaurants, I remember it was sort of like the height of fashion. They would bring you like the cruets of olive oil. It was not bread that maybe Americans were super familiar with.

[C]

Yeah. And I gotta say, I think that when people think of focaccia now, certainly when I hear the word focaccia, I think of something very different. But I liked that bread back then, I think I would still like it. Well, and I actually think thinner, tighter. Focaccia.

[A]

Yeah. And we have recipes for that on our site, and I think that it's probably, like, a little bit closer to the origins of this bread. So, like, you know, there are, like, focaccia is a bread that we think of as Italian and even in Italy, like, dating back to the Etruscans, like, a very old bread. But I think recent research has revealed that this bread, or focaccia, like, bread, is actually even older than we originally thought and that it likely dates back to, like, the Fertile Crescent. Like, you know, this is an old bread.

[C]

It's a flatbread.

[A]

It's a flatbread.

[C]

Right. And those were the first breads. And. Yeah, and it makes sense. You can. If you put in that context, you know, thinking about the journey focaccia has gone over the past many years, 3 million years, you know, starting as a flatbread. I mean, it does make sense that progressively it has become sort of what it is now, which I think of something pretty tall, really open.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Almost a wet interior.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Something that has a very high hydration.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I think the stereotype of focaccia in 2026.

[A]

Yes. It's focaccia 2.0. So I think it's. It has. You know, it has evolved. Right. Like, and it has evolved maybe away from its sort of roots. And we were really inspired by that here. Like, we were seeing all of these beautiful. You know, I remember seeing, like, Lodge Bread company in Los Angeles. Like, they have, like, a truly absurdly thick focaccia. It's, like, 2 inches thick and, like, gold and bubbly and olive oil on it. And, you know, they weren't the only people to do it. We were seeing, like, a lot of our favorite bakers around the country, like, messing around with this bread, and we started messing around with it for the Big Book of Bread. Sort of like, okay, we have existing focaccia recipes, sort of 1.0 on our site. But, like, what is a modern focaccia?

[C]

What is focaccia in 2025, which is when we rolled out our recipe of the year focaccia. And it was not the flat, you know, type tone focaccia of the 90s. No, it was something very different.

[A]

And when they started. So they. The test kitchen took our Big Book of Bread formula when we started thinking about, like, will, should we do focaccia as recipe of the year? So they started with that and I remember they were like tweaking various things. And you know, it would be funny to go back and look because I remember those first tests, I was like, great one and done. Like, this is great. And like to go back and look at it now, like, they were. They were wild. Like, they were so big, so puffy.

[C]

They were so.

[A]

It was like the size of a pillow.

[C]

Like, it was like, yes, they were. So those listeners who have heard us talk about recipe of the year before, they know how much testing we do for this and what Jessica's talking about. It's the initial test for our big and bubbly focaccia, which was our recipe of the year 2025. We had a recipe in the Big Book of Bread, which I believe makes a full half sheet tray of focaccia, which is already big. And it was probably three times the dough of what the recipe is in the Big Book of Bread. Because the question was what? The question we were trying to answer is, what is focaccia in 2025? And the answer is big, Big. And so they went really big. And what my. Yes. You and I were like, this is great. This is it. We nailed it. Our colleague Chr came around the corner to taste and saw these enormous breads on the table. And he had a look of pure fear in his eyes. He was like, he's the one who was like, I just have to tell you that if I made this for my family, we would panic. Like, we would not know how to get through this bread. So we scale back.

[A]

We scale back. And the recipe now is big and bubbly focaccia. On our site, it's like a very polite 8 by 8 square pan. I will say, though, I am drawn to the half sheet pan of focaccia because one of my great loves is a focaccia sandwich. And one of my greater loves is a slab sandwich, a party sandwich. As you know, I forced you to make party sandwiches with me once. More than once, actually. And so I love that you could take a whole. You can do it with eight by eight too, and make four sandwiches, but for, you know, okay, maybe six out

[C]

of an eight by eight, but. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I love, you know, like, I, I love that sort of like large format bread. To me, it's like, oh, it's exciting.

[C]

So it, it varies, but the through line with focaccia always is that it is ultimately a flatbread enriched and various stages of hydration. But really, if you have a. It's a. It's a Pam bread that's with olive oil and dimpled.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Then you've probably got focaccia.

[A]

And you know, I was thinking about sort of like this focaccia renaissance that we are talking about, the sort of like, moment where focaccia became a trend. And I mean, you can't exactly timestamp it. But I think about, you know, when our friend Samin Nosrat wrote Salt Fat Acid Heat and then subsequently did the Netflix series of the same name. And on that Netflix series, there's a whole episode where she. She makes this focaccia and it's the olive oil episode. It's the olive oil episode. Yes. And she makes this focaccia and she. I mean, it's kind of a wild technique. Like after the dough is in the pan, it gets like a salt brine, which seems crazy. Like you have a bread dough and then you're like just dumping salt of water on top of it. And I think that really, like, you know, Samin's a beloved personality. And I think people loved that, you know, that series and that episode in particular. And then everyone was making focaccia and

[C]

I think the salt brining was a point of interest and curious bakers, curious cooks were like, oh, I want to try that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I think a lot of people watched it and were inspired to make the focaccia because they were watching Samin's hands in this oily dough making these bubbles as you dimple. But it's really fun to make focaccia.

[A]

It's really fun to make focaccia.

[C]

You just want to do it and you want to get your hands in there and it's easy. It really is an easy bread. I mean, it's a really nice entry level bread that I think everybody could get into.

[A]

So. Yeah, it is. And I think about that focaccia in that episode is like the focaccia that launched a thousand ships, which is how we ended up with it as our recipe of the year and how we ended up inviting Samin to come on the episode and talk to us.

[C]

Yeah, and it's Samin. I mean, what a great guest. I mean, to have. But I'm just thinking we could have invited so many people on to talk about focaccia because so many. There's been so much innovation with it. I was going to ask you, where in Portland, Maine, are you eating focaccia these days?

[A]

Besides my house.

[C]

Besides your house? Yeah.

[A]

I do make it at home. I Actually hardly ever go out for or buy focaccia because it is really easy and I think you get excellent results at home.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Other breads, I'm like, eh, you know, like, it's a time commitment or whatever. Like, I'm not making baguettes every time I want a baguette, but focaccia I will make every time I want focaccia.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And where are you in these focaccias that you're making at home? On the toppings? Like, are you topping your focaccias a lot or are you making them pretty simple?

[A]

I do not make. I don't top mine in a way that they are approaching pizza. I don't have any, like, strong objection to that. It's just not what I do. I serve focaccia usually, like, either to build a sandwich or as a side dish to something else. So the extent of my topping is like an herb, an olive, maybe I'll mess around with an olive. Like maybe some slices of lemon. You know, I do sometimes. Or maybe like cherry tomatoes dimpled in.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

But I don't like, you know, I don't go maximalist. Like, we were talking about Radio Bakery, and our colleague Martin Phillip just, he spent a lot of time down there, like, checking out their focaccia. And inspired by that, did one that's topped with creme fraiche and mushrooms. And we have a video for that. It's delicious. But to me, then I'm like, well, then you're almost making pizza and that's fine, but that's just usually not how I'm eating focaccia.

[C]

That it's maximalist, you know, and that is where I think we are right now with focaccia. That's where in this moment, I think that's what we're talking about. Whether it's the height or the way it's topped, how wet it is, how open it is. It's all about maximalism. And where I was going was specifically to make you mad. Is this other trend in focaccia that we've seen recently of just, like, seeing how maximal we can take it. Can we jelly donut focaccia? Can we cinnamon roll focaccia? Can we, you know, obviously, pizza fly focaccia. This is a trend on Instagram started by a baker named Lacey Osterman who started a trend of asking, will it focaccia? And so all the ones I mentioned, she did. She did jelly donut, she did spicy margarita focaccia. Buffalo chicken for Katja. I'm going to be honest. I'll speak on this first. They all look delicious to me. I would eat most of those. I don't know if I would do spicy margaritas.

[A]

This is Margarita like the drink or margarita lick the pizza?

[C]

The drink.

[A]

Yeah. I have opinions about this, but I'm going to save it for later. We have a whole segment for my opinions on it.

[C]

Anyway, can't wait to hear this conversation. More about focaccia with you and Samin.

[A]

I went to watch because it had been years since I watched your Salt Fat Acid Heat series on Netflix. I think, you know, same since it came out. Right. And so I watched the fat episode because it's in the fat episode that you debuted to the world this recipe for this Ligurian style focaccia, which was not in your first book. It was not in the book. It was only in the series.

[B]

It really came from the show. Yeah.

[A]

And people really lost their minds about that focaccia.

[B]

It was like real, you know, it was the power of visual, of like, of soft light, like beautiful photography.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that episode is of shallow depth of field. Yeah. It was filmed in Italy. You know, you're taught how to make this focaccia by an Italian olive oil maker. And there was something really cool about that focaccia that really captivated the world, I think, which was the brine.

[B]

The brine. I'd never seen that either.

[A]

I had never seen it either. So for people that haven't seen the episode and they should, because it is beautiful. Tell. Tell us about that method.

[B]

Yeah, well, the. Also my own personal relationship to Liguria and focaccia is that I lived in Italy for two years in my early 20s and I cooked there. And I lived in Tuscany which. Where focaccia is called Skia Chata. But Squish. There was this one bakery that made the ski a chatta that I could not get enough of. And I. That's always been sort of my platonic ideal of focaccia. Then I came back home and I started cooking and baking and I've just never. I'm like, what is it that they were doing there? So then when I got to do this scene with this baker in. In Liguria and we. I knew I wanted to make focaccia. I mean he was just like the local baker in that town. It was not some well known person making super special. He was just doing it the traditional way they've been doing it Forever. And then he came and I truly had no idea what he was gonna do. He showed me how to make dough. Okay, I've seen that. Put a punch of oil in it, to be expected. Oil on top. So far so good. Yeah, all good. And then he dimpled it and he made this very salty brine that he poured on top, which kind of blew my mind because the idea of putting water on top of your bread when you bake it, I mean, there is the steaming in the oven and all these things, but I. It kind of immediately made sense because I have historically always salted a focaccia with salt before, you know, as it goes in the oven.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that way the salt crystals stay, you know, they typically don't all dissolve, so you get a little bit of the crunch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this thing that he did, it was like the salt got completely absorbed into the top of the dough. And so it was in every bite. And I realized that was the difference of what I had never, you know, would been able to do at home or like achieve in America, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And I think it really.

[B]

It was an Italian secret.

[A]

It was an Italian secret and I feel like people received it as such. Like it was very, very captivating, you know, for people and still a delicious focaccia. And I think, you know, we talked in the beginning of the show about my memories of the first time I ate focaccia, which was like at the, you know, like the mid priced Italian restaurants of our youth. And it was in the 90s, too.

[B]

In the 90s, the age of sun dried tomatoes. Pesto focaccia.

[A]

Yeah, and they were thin, you know, it was pretty thin and it was a pretty dense crumb. And that I think is more like that Ligurian focaccia from the show. Like, it's got a pretty low profile. It's got a pretty tight crumb.

[B]

No, you know what? It is tight. I don't know how to explain it. It's tight, but it's light. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like it's not like super fluffy. Yeah, you're right. It's not like super fluffy and open in that way, but it's not a, it's not a dense.

[A]

No bread. And that's in part because it's got so much fat in it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, better than me. But yes.

[A]

I mean, I do think, and we've been talking a lot about, about this in this episode is like the, the, the times, they are a changin. The focaccia times, they are a Changin. And I think that is actually reflected in the recipe in your. In your new book.

[B]

Yeah, totally. And I, you know, when I was writing Salt Fat Acid Heat, I just felt like bread. I have such respect for bread baking. And to me, like, I have the incredible privilege of living in the Bay Area.

[A]

Like, why ever bake bread? Yeah, why would you bother when there's

[B]

so many just breads at my fingertips here? So it didn't. It just felt like it wasn't my place to enter the bread baking conversation in salt fat in any way, which is why there's no focaccia recipe. And then it was on the show, and it made sense for the show within the context of filming in Liguoria. And I was like, well, I definitely want to have this for people because one of my aims for the show was I wanted it to inspire people to cook in the way that when you watch Chef's Table, you're inspired to book a reservation. And so I was like, I knew I had to translate what I had learned in Italy to something doable. So I didn't want a mixer. I didn't want all this stuff. So I called our friend Josie Baker.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And I asked him. And also great human.

[A]

Great baker, Great human.

[B]

And also my other friend. Our other friend, Lori Ellen Pellicano. Two great sort of baking minds. And they really, like, helped me refine and test a recipe that sort of would have. The. Would mimic what I had had in Italy, but be achievable with, like, flour you could buy in America without a mixer, without special tools. And Josie kept being like, are you sure you don't want to make it with sourdough start? I was like, absolutely not. Because I want it to be for everyone, people who've never baked anything. And I do think that's part of why it became a thing that everyone was doing was it was a lot of people's first thing they ever baked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's the beauty of focaccia is there's not the pressure of, like, beautiful proofing and shaping. There's not the pressure of a sourdough starter. There's not the pressure there. It's. It's a very low pressure. It's so low pressure that often you make it with spent other dough, you know.

[A]

Right, right. It's. And it's low pressure, but also very delicious. You know, like, it's the. The sort of, like, labor to reward, you know, ratio very high. But your new recipe in good things, you. You're not so the salt, fat, acid heat recipe based on the Ligurian one is made with all purpose flour, but the one in Good Things now you're making with bread flour. Tell me about that.

[B]

That was also because I wanted the first one, the one from the show, to be really as achievable as possible for the maximum number of people and not require like a special trip to the store. And so it wasn't worth whatever. I would get a much broader net of people making the focaccia with just a pea flour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then despite my previous sort of reticence about trying to make my own sourdough starter and bread, I am a human who survived the pandemic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and so, so I did, at some point, I made a starter. I, I, I spent probably three to six weeks. I don't, I can't. It's a blur of a time.

[A]

Yeah. It is doing this.

[B]

And during that time, the main thing that I like, really came to understand and learn was the value of the turn and the doe turn, which we

[A]

call at King Arthur, stretch and folds. But stretch and folds. Yeah, I mean, same thing. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so, and like, what that can do for a shape and loft. So there was a way where, when I saw, like, what a stretch and fold could do for creating that loft combined with what the bread flower was doing, I was like, let me see if I can take this, like, bread flour thing, this stretch and fold from what I've like, practiced in my very brief tenure as a sourdough baker, and adapt that into the focaccia. Still maintaining sort of, you don't need a mixer, you don't need all these things.

[A]

Timeout to. Because I think there's some interesting things that our, our listeners might not know about. So a few things. One is that bread flour is stronger, right?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

So a higher protein. No, I mean, that's, but, and people may know this, so stronger just means

[B]

it has more protein. And I like to think of it as like, more muscles keep shape.

[A]

Yeah, well, exactly. Right. And then, and then, you know, you, so you're starting with a bread that will by its very nature give you a stronger dough and then further strengthening the dough with that machine mix. Right. But if you don't want to do a machine mix and you still want to build strength, that's where the time unfolds. Well, time unfolds. Exactly. And the stretch and folds, I think, is like, you know, as close to a sort of like no knead process as you can get while still getting your hands dirty, you know, so you're getting in there and you're actually just physically pulling up one corner of the dough, stretching it towards the center, plopping it down, turning it and repeating until the dough doesn't want to stretch anymore.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then letting it hang out for a little while and then repeating that process.

[B]

It's like you're doing the reps. You're

[A]

doing the reps. You're doing the reps. Yep. You're putting in the work and then. And then you're letting your dough in. The good things recipe then sit for a long time.

[B]

A long time. Yeah.

[A]

And then I think, you know, both of both that big and bubbly focaccia of ours and your recipe for focaccia have the. The tip to, like, once it's in the pan, you really have to, like, let it proof.

[B]

You have to let it rise.

[A]

Do not let it rise. Yeah, that's really important because otherwise you're

[B]

not going to get, like, everything you've worked for.

[A]

It will not pronounce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What I love about focaccia is that it is not hard to make. And it's, you know, like our big and bubbly focaccia is, you know, can be made in the afternoon. Yours has the overnight.

[B]

Oh, I'm gonna add that to my list.

[A]

Try it out. Yeah, try it out. Because that is.

[B]

It is for. Mine does involve planning, but that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, but hands off mostly,

[B]

you know, but just like, sometimes you're like, man, I wish I had started that yesterday.

[A]

Yeah, I basically always wish that. And I do think it's a bread. I mean, I know that you can revive leftover focaccia, but I do think it is a bread best eaten like, baked and just eaten inhaled.

[B]

Yes, totally agreed.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's always a treat.

[B]

Oh, I love it.

[A]

Never enough time. Always a treat. We love having you on the show

[B]

and I love listening to it.

[A]

Oh, thanks. Thanks. Yes.

[B]

You guys are great.

[A]

Well, until next time.

[B]

Yes. I can't wait. Thanks, guys.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by King Arthur Bread Flour. So many of our bread recipes and pizza recipes call for bread flour. And here's why. With a higher protein content than all purpose flour, bread flour gives you strong, stretchy, elastic doughs that proof and bake gorgeously. Buying bread flour on our website or grocery store shelves. Just look for the blue flour bag. It's time for our next segment. Ask the bakers for Ask the bakers. We want to hear from you if you have a baking question for us? Head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.

[A]

But, you know, we get it. Sometimes you're like in the middle, middle of a bake and you've got a question, and you can't wait, you know, for another season of the podcast to have your question answered.

[C]

You have no patience.

[A]

You have no patience. You've got to turn the dough, and you need a solution in those situations. You can always reach out to our baker's hotline via phone, email, or online chat. You can go to kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com bakers hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253, as in bake.

[C]

Let's hear our first questions.

[D]

Hello, this is Adrienne in St. Louis. I have a question about focaccia. I recently had a fantastic meal at Saint Vito Focaccia in Nashville. And what impressed me about their focaccia was the layer of herbs on the top. They remained very bright and vibrant. And I assume that they added those herbs after the focaccia was baked because every time I try to add them before it is baked, they turn out burnt and unappealing. I'm curious how they did that so that I can replicate it at home. And I'm hopeful that if you called and asked them, they would tell you. Thanks.

[A]

Well, that's what we did.

[C]

That's what we did. And this is the focaccia restaurant, or the focacciaria, which is a new word to me that I had never heard of before until we got this question and looked it up yesterday. Stunning, beautiful. I mean, I haven't had the food there and never heard of this place, but don't even know if it's real, you know, but it's on Instagram. And the focaccias are big, beautiful. I mean, I want to eat there. We did reach out to them. They very quickly answered this question. And the answer is that they dehydrate the herbs. You know, a custom herb mix, dried oregano, fennel pollen, parsley, and thyme that they dehydrate at a very low temperature so as not to burn the herbs, and they sprinkle it on the focaccia after the.

[A]

Baked. After it's baked. Yeah. I think that's key. And it's interesting, fennel pollen. That's a. That is an ingredient that I think you see a lot in Italian. Like Italian country cooking. You see it less in America, but it really gives you that, like, sort of anise perfume to the whole thing. And I wonder, you know, if you wanted to try this at home. I feel like just doing a blend of dried herbs is not the same. Like, it's not gonna retain that same vibrancy.

[C]

You mean sometimes store bought?

[A]

Yeah, if you were to get like dried thyme and stuff. So I think one option. I've used this with other herbs, and I imagine it would work with this combination that they describe here of oregano, parsley, thyme. You strip the leaves off and you sandwich the leaves between layers of paper towel. And then you dehydrate them in your microwave. Low power bursts. And that works pretty well. Like, then you get, you know, crunchy leaves and then you could crumble it up if you don't have a food dehydrator, which I do not.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's other ways. I think we were, you know, before we got. We heard back from. From Saint Vito and thank you, Saint Vito, for helping us with this question. You and I were sort of like, well, what would we do if we were in this situation?

[C]

Because neither of us would have put their arms on. On the focaccia and baked it, because that's never gonna work, you know, especially for focaccia, which bakes. Doesn't bake a super high temperature. What like 350? Usually maybe 375. Still 20 minutes, 25 minutes in the oven. It's not gonna turn.

[A]

It's not gonna work.

[C]

So you had a. I think we both had a similar idea. You had a good one that was inspired by our current recipe of the year.

[A]

Yeah. So the flaky puff crusted pizza, the finishing touch for that is a basil and garlic oil. So fresh basil in olive oil, you know, that get. Then it's got some garlic in it and that gets spooned on after the bake. And that I think is nice because often focaccia recipes have you adding additional oil after it's come out of the oven just so you get that beautiful pooling. So you could make a fresh herb oil. I mean, you could even, like, if you wanted to be extra, extra. Read all about it. You could blanch your basil, dry it, and make a basil oil in a Vitamix with olive oil. And you'd have like a very vibrant green. And you could do the parsley Too. The same technique like that would be pretty to look at and really deliver, like, a very bright fresh herb flavor.

[C]

Okay, caller, well, thank you for that question, and thank you for alerting us to St. Vito, a destination we'll have to hit one day.

[A]

Yeah. Nashville. It's a great food city, so just another awesome place to visit. Let's hear our next question.

[D]

Hi there. I was wondering, how can I get a more open crumb in my focaccia?

[A]

I think some of this comes down to the formula.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think we should start with the recipe.

[C]

I think we should start there. Yeah, yeah. Because I think you're right.

[A]

I mean, I'm channeling my inner Martin right now where it's like, it all starts on the day you're born. But I think that you.

[C]

It starts in Roman times.

[A]

It starts. It starts with the Etruscans or in the Fertile Crescent. No, but I think that you want to look for a recipe that's a higher hydration recipe. And I know that there are probably some listeners out there that are like, well, how do I know? And you have to do math.

[C]

A little bit of math.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So you.

[C]

Let's see, in baker's math, which is what the math we're talking about, it's all a ratio. You're breaking down the ingredients into ratios, and it's all based on the total amount of flour.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So if there. If there are a thousand grams of flour in this recipe and 80 grams or 800 grams of water or other liquid, then you have an 80% hydration.

[A]

Because flour is always 100%. And everything else gets calculated against the flour.

[C]

Exactly. So what you would do is you would just, you know, to figure out if it's a high hydration dough. You don't need to go. You can eyeball it a little bit. You know, just like, look at the ratio between all the liquid versus all the flour. Total up all the flour. If they're like two. If there's like semolina, add that to the all purpose or whatever.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And if there's milk, I mean, actually there are focaccias we haven't even talked about yet. Sweet focaccias that do are enriched with eggs and milk. If there's milk, water, add that up and then just compare the two. I would say a high. What counts as high hydration? There's no law around that, but I would say 80%.

[A]

I was going to say that. Yeah.

[C]

You can reasonably assume that you're going to get a reasonably open crumb with 80% or higher.

[A]

And I think the thing of it is, like an 80% hydration dough, if you were, say, wanting to make a shaped boule or batard, like, might make, you know, a greener bread baker very anxious because it's a, it's wet and it's like, if you dump it out, it's like an amoeba. And you're like, how do I. It's sticky. But that's where, like, that's where focaccia is so brilliant. Cause you, like, almost don't even have to touch the dough, you know, like you're mixing it up, it gets puffy, it's really wet. Then you're scraping it into your oiled pan and you just do the flip once to get it coated in oil on both sides, but you don't have to touch it.

[C]

And when you do touch it to dimple it, your hands are coated in oil. So you're not gonna stick.

[A]

It's not sticking like crazy. And the other thing, I mean, and this I learned, I just like learned and relearned this lesson when we were working on the bread book. And I still think about it all the time when I bake bread of any kind. Like, you really have to push the proof on it. So, like, when that focaccia is in the pan, like, you really wanna wait, you know, you wanna keep it in a warm place, which is hard. In my cold house, you know, I have, you know, work, I sometimes put it on like a heating pad or they have those heating mats. And you really want to wait until that bread visibly looks, that dough visibly looks very bubbly and you like give the pan a little jiggle and it should like be almost like a marshmallow.

[C]

Yeah. And that's the benefit of having a bread that's baked in a pan.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because the risk of overproofing is curbed by the fact that it's in a pan.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Because you know, the risk of overproofing a freestanding loaf is that it's just going to kind of spread out and it's going to lose its shape.

[A]

Yeah, it'll collapse.

[C]

But you can push pan breads a little harder than that's true. Because they already have some built in structure.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This is not to say that you should intentionally overproof all your pan loaves, but like for focaccia, focaccia specifically, if you're looking for something really bubbly, you gotta wait to see those bubbles.

[A]

Yeah, you gotta wait. And I think, you know, it may take a little Longer than you think. But those are, I think those are the two tips. So choose a formula that, you know, favors higher hydration. That'll give you a great start. And then give it enough time in a, you know, cozy environment to reach its full potential. Yeah, that's what all I want for myself. Enough time goes in.

[C]

You know what, that. You're right. That is a life lesson. Just give yourself time to reach your full potential. Don't rush, don't rush, don't rush.

[A]

But I think we have one last focaccia related question.

[C]

Let's hear our next one.

[A]

I have a great focaccia recipe, but it makes way more than we can consume in one sitting. Do you have any tips for storing focaccia or reheating it so that we can enjoy it a day or two later?

[B]

Thanks.

[C]

Well, you know my answer to this, Just eat more. Just eat more.

[A]

Just eat more.

[C]

Just force yourself. Don't leave that table until that focaccia tonight.

[A]

I mean, I think there's a few things if you really wanted to, if you have a recipe that you love. We were just talking about baker's math. You know, baker's math is built on ratios. You could scale it down, you know, so that's door number one to scale it down.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I think is a fine thing to do. I mean, option two is look for, you know, a smaller recipe. Like our big and bubbly focaccia is an 8 by 8 pan. We also have that small batch cheesy focaccia which is made in a loaf pan, which is a great for like, you know, two people.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Say you're keeping your recipe that you love, which I hope is from the big book of bread, but I am glad that you have one that you love. Other things that I recommend, I do think that day old focaccia makes a superlative crouton, you know, cause it's already got the oil like built right in, you know. So I think that is a great thing to do. I wouldn't like, you know, often when I make croutons, I like, will assemble a bag of cubed bread in my freezer and when I have enough of it, I will. I wouldn't do that. I would make croutons the next day and use them up. But you know, we've been talking a bit about sandwiches, focaccia sandwiches, which honestly, I feel like this could be a focaccia sandwich episode. Very niche audience. But one of the things that I don't know if I would call it a pain point. But like, say you have a focaccia sandwich and you want it to be a hot focaccia sandwich and you don't have like a sandwich press. Right. Like the exterior of a loaf of focaccia is like, I mean, it's all crust. Right. Like no crumb. It's sort of sealed off. And so when you like go to griddle it, it's kind of, you know, it can get like a little greasy and sort of, you know, just like one texture, like one solid texture, but it's also uneven. Yeah.

[C]

So it's hard to get, you know, if those dimples, those holes, you're not going to get contact with the pan if you're griddling that. Yeah.

[A]

So what I like to do if I'm going to do like a grilled or toasted focaccia sandwich is I, you know, I cut my focaccia in half and then I flip it it inside out. So the top becomes, you know, the top becomes the middle, I guess. Right. So you have like, you're exposing the crumb of the focaccia on both sides of your sandwich and then, you know, you can butter it or you can oil it up and you'll get like a really, you know, you can toast it in a really nice way or griddle it in a really nice way and it'll, it'll be sort of craggy and delicious. So like the inside out focaccia sandwich I think is a great thing to do with Dale focaccia. I love that because it can definitely be revitalized with a toast.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, in both these situations, you're reheating the focaccia either to make croutons or to make a sandwich. And that's the great thing about focaccia. It's full of oil. So when you reheat it, the oil is going to like kind of sizzle on the sides and like make it, it's gonna help with browning and crispiness. Really, really nice.

[A]

Yeah. And making like a grilled cheese sandwich on inside out focaccia is. That's a trick for the ages. It's so good.

[C]

A trick for the angels.

[A]

So please, caller, take my trick from the ages. For the ages.

[C]

So those are our questions. Thank you, callers. Now it's time for the most important segment of the podcast. Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated ideas are in her head. A segment we Lovingly call Jess opinions. And Jessica, I think I know what your Jess opinion is gonna be this week. You hinted at it early in this episode, but hit me. What's your just opinion about the Kaccha?

[A]

I mean, I think we're getting back to the will it faux Katja. And my opinion is I don't want to find out. And that's not entirely true. You know, as always, here I go to offer a qualifier for it. But I think, you know, I am actually myself not a huge fan of a sweet focaccia.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Like, I do not.

[C]

Just a few minutes ago. It is traditional. There are traditional.

[A]

Yes. And I've had grape topped ones with sugar, and I don't want them. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a fine thing. Like, I don't think it should be banned worldwide, but it is not my thing. But I feel like, I mean, in that, to me, like, the grape and sugar seems like, you know, very like a Sunday school picnic compared to, like, what people are doing with sweet focaccia now.

[C]

Like, okay, I think I follow your logic. There are Sunday school picnic.

[A]

There's like strawberry Danish focaccia. And like, I mean, just because you can put put anything into a bread dough does not mean that you should.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think, like, exercise a little restraint. Like, strawberry Danish is great. Cinnamon rolls, delicious. Like, these are all great things, but, like, they don't all have to be combined into one.

[C]

I love the core of the chef's opinion, which is exercise some restraint, America. And I think I can get with you there just generally. But on some of these focaccias, I just have to counterpoint this by saying, like I said before, a lot of them looked really delicious to me. I don't know if I would personally make a lot of them. I don't think I'm gonna be.

[A]

You're making a spicy margarita one every weekend, aren't you?

[C]

I'm not. I just don't think I would go there. However, we did sort of jump on this trend a little bit, and we published a recipe for a cinnamon roll focaccia. Another Sarah Jean Powell recipe. And I have to. I gotta tell you, that thing is freakishly delicious. It is so good. I mean, it's maximal. You know, you're making this cinnamon roll filling, you're putting it in the dimples. There's, I think, a little, maybe a little more sugar. I don't think there's any cinnamon in the dough because cinnamon can inhibit fermentation. And it Gets a glaze afterwards. It's a lot. But the crispy, olive oily edges combined with that sweet cinnamon, I mean, it's. I think it's almost an improvement on cinnamon rolls. I give me.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say improvement on focaccia. No, an improvement on cinnamon rolls.

[C]

You know, I mean, because even though it's decadent, it's also really light because it's focaccia.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And even though it's really sweet, it has that bitter edge from the olive oil. So it's. It's a very complex and delicious thing. So I would encourage listeners to, well, choose a side. You know, you're either on Jessica side or my side.

[A]

You're either team Jessica or team David. And, you know, you decide. I do think that recipe has been very well received because there are a lot of people that, you know, that want to mess around with their focaccia, and I think, you know. Sure. Like, sure.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I understand. You're traditionalist at heart, you know, I think I am.

[A]

Yeah. I think I am. But I should try it. You know, I should try it, and then I will never admit if I was wrong. So.

[C]

Okay. I was gonna say try to report back if it sounds like.

[A]

I will try it, and I will report back in a future episode so everyone can be on the edge of their seats until then.

[C]

Yeah. We will put that recipe, though, for the Simeon Wolf focaccia in the show notes and in our substack, which, if you have not subscribed to yet, do that.

[A]

Yeah, some behind the scenes stuff there. David, what are you gonna bake this week?

[C]

Well, I'm feeling a little desperate this week. Desperate for yet another week of desperation for me. Desperate for warmer weather. I think we're at the point where this is where I start to get tired of it. I really like the cold.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I don't like it when it's sort of the year as kind of like one, like, kind of perma season that's sort of like in between all year round.

[A]

I do think, though, you get to this time of year, and sometimes as a New Englander, you think, oh, is it just. Is spring just passing us by this, like, not gonna stop by?

[C]

Right. This is the point where it's like, okay, I'm over it now. Like, I'm ready. Like, this is ridiculous. It's April, you know, like, let's get some warmth and let's get spring going. So I'm gonna make spring happen with strawberry lemonade bars, which is a very easy recipe. I believe it fits into our bake it Easy rubric on the site. And it's, it's got, it's just delicious. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a lemon flavored bar cookie with a frosting. Strawberry frosting with using dehydrated strawberries. Strawberries. And it's great and it's pretty. And when I eat one, I will

[A]

feel a modicum of hope, I think, you know. Yeah. I'm also going to bake something sweet this week. I was really excited and inspired by I love pate a choux pastries. So cream puffs, profiteroles, eclairs like. But there was a new to me. I thought I had tried them all that that Molly Marzla Kelly just developed in our test kitchen for the Karpotka cake, which is a cream puff cake essentially that gets split and filled with a pastry. Well, it's actually, I think it's German buttercream that she filled it with. So it's like a really rich filling and she added raspberries to her. And I just tried it in passing in the test kitchen as we often do. But it's like, you know, we try a lot of things in the test kitchen just passing through and there's some things that like really like lodge in my.

[C]

Yeah, they stop you.

[A]

Yeah. And I've never made that cake before, so it's like always fun to try something new. And I think it could be. I mean, I know some people audition recipes before they make them for like events. I never do. I just go white knuckling and hoping for the best. But I'm thinking like, this could be like a really nice sort of celebration dessert for like spring holidays. It's, it's stunning looking anyway, so those are recipes that people might want to try along with us.

[C]

Great.

[A]

As always appreciate our listeners tuning in to Things Bakers Know.

[C]

Yes. Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts so you know when the next episode drops.

[A]

And you can also share this episode with a friend. Maybe somebody you want to make strawberry lemonade bars for you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can leave us a review while you're there.

[C]

Yes. And when you're baking this week, folks, please, please remember, follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumarkin and me, Jessica Battalano. Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chanay is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

[A]

Thanks again to our friend Samin Nossrat for appearing on today's episode. You can learn more about Samin and her work, including her latest cookbook, Good Things at Ciao.

[C]

Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

[A]

Ciao Ciao.